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We watch "Parallax" (S1 Ep.3)
51 Plays2 years ago
Welcome to Janeway's Children.
We are two loyal Star Trek Voyager fans, plus one newbie who watch an episode of Voyager, and then discuss!
This week we are watching "Parallax" in which tensions rise between the merged Starfleet and Maquis crews when they find another ship caught within a quantum singularity, only to find there's more to the ship than it seems.
We have no ads, no editing, and no socials but if you have any comments, questions or corrections you can reach us at hello@superstreak.co.uk.
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Transcript
Choosing a Podcast Title
00:00:00
Speaker
editing. So I just realized we haven't got a title for our podcast yet. Have you had a think about this? Oh, right. To put you on the spot.
Starship Federation HR Issues
00:00:15
Speaker
I'd really like it to be something I mean, just based on the last episode that we saw, I'd like it to be something based on my take on the HR practices on Starship
00:00:28
Speaker
Federation because there are some questionable things going on there and I could make a lot of money sort of you know doing things like oh I don't know constructive dismissal lawsuits and stuff like that in that sort of environment so whatever the equivalent of an ambulance chaser in Star Trek universe is
00:00:49
Speaker
Sure, I can't remember. I'm just, what is it like between that and the last episode on HR? Remind me. I mean, you know, the entire thing of half Vulcan, not half Vulcan, half Klingon knocks out superior in the first scene. And this becomes Q for her superior to say that she should be the top engineer because it's all about who's the best, you know, fist
Brainstorming Legal Podcast Titles
00:01:18
Speaker
fighter.
00:01:18
Speaker
Okay, so I see we're gonna have a lot to discuss. I have some questions here. You know, how I sort of summed it up. I made some notes here. Wait, wait, wait, wait. So just to confirm, we don't have a title for our podcast yet, so we'll carry on working on that. But in this episode- And I am disappointed in you all, may I say. Well, I still have the terrible podcast of something like Janeway's Children or like Janeway Paris Children or something because- We're not good enough to be Janeway's Children. That's the one to be.
00:01:56
Speaker
I don't know if we can use the word Star Trek, but that's not a bad shot. Let me not note that down.
Parallax Episode Summary
00:02:05
Speaker
Maybe we can, but they are very strange about their
00:02:09
Speaker
Oh, that's what I was saying. But does that mean they'll have a problem with Janeway? Or is that okay? Because that's just a name of a character? Yeah, also, not a good question. Well, actually, either way. Not the Star Trek salamanders.
00:02:23
Speaker
I'm afraid I completely forgot that that was the homework, so I need to... Oh, no, don't worry. Another week. That's more than enough time. I'm fairly sure I never knew it was the homework. Well, I think you should... Just a record show? We have a title for our podcast. Maybe the reason why I keep remembering is every time I go to produce the podcast, I need to have a title. And I'm like, okay, we haven't actually decided this. And it's a small top of mind for me. Yeah. But Jamie, so we did watch Parallax. Parallax? Yeah, Parallax. Is that what it's called?
00:02:51
Speaker
And what we forgot to do last time is allow you to give your summary of the episode as quickly as you can. So if you want to give that a go this time.
00:03:00
Speaker
Okay. My, I am, I have notes this time. And it's, I basically summarised it as Taurus knocks out big jinge in circumstances which would draw HR question in ultimate mansplanatory response action as gateway to being given responsibility promotion. And also the doctor became Ickle.
00:03:28
Speaker
Great. That was very concise. Very concise, yeah. Very nice.
Comedic Plot Details Discussion
00:03:32
Speaker
You know, there's something about some spatial distortions in there as well, but, you know, details. We wouldn't want to be conventional and focus on the actual mechanism driving the narrative, would we? Well, we are going to get into those details, but I was hoping you could explain some of them to me when we get to it. Are we all just sort of playing bluff here? Like how close are we going to get to suggesting that we haven't actually watched the episode? Oh, sure you have.
00:03:57
Speaker
Oh, sure. Based on a brilliant summary, I know you have. Explain the word ickle to me because I think I, is that like slang for little? It is a word that has been used to describe my height for a period of time that I describe since childhood. For those who can't see.
00:04:19
Speaker
A because you're sitting down or they might be listening. How tall are you Jamie? Six foot five. Okay. Is that Iqal? That Iqal. You may be exaggerating a little bit. Five, six, three. I think it was also a bit of a... Like a ten. It was a bit of a generational word as well I think because when I was a teenager that was kind of used as a derogatory way of describing... It was never a compliment to me. Oh okay.
00:04:49
Speaker
I see. Obviously, as I didn't grow up in this country, I did not know that. So thank you. This is clearly vital information there.
Star Trek Philosophy and Leadership
00:05:01
Speaker
Is there a South African or Afrikaans equivalent? I think about that. I mean, I do realize that, you know, describing people of shorter height is not something that has needed to be done very often by the South African people. But
00:05:16
Speaker
Um, I don't know. I can't think of anything off hand. Um, but yeah, so I guess diving into the episode and I think the first words are she hit me. And I feel like, I mean, I don't know about you Jamie, but obviously I've watched this many times. So even you immediately know who the she is. Um, but Lana Torres, but did you, were you still waiting to see cause you're still new to Star Trek?
00:05:42
Speaker
Um, I, I sort of was, although there was quite a lot of mention made last time we spoke about the fact that, you know, Torres was firing, it was because she was half Vulcan and not Vulcan, I keep mixing that up, Klingon, half Klingon, forgive me. So I sort of did, but I was a bit like,
00:06:01
Speaker
The first time it happens, and how it's sort of described, it's like, she hit me. It doesn't sound like that big a deal. And then like later in the episode, it's described as she literally gave that big gingelad. Is it Kerry? Yeah. She gave him cranial fractures. And I was like, is no one else sort of going to make something in the fact she's just lamped this lad, giving him cranial fractures, and then got on his job.
00:06:31
Speaker
I think, well, yeah, but I mean, also you when she explains that you realize he was actually physical with her before she hit him. Well, yeah, because that's also the thing like in what workplace environment is it appropriate to shove someone across just because you think they've got something wrong in a sort of no stress and people aren't shooting at us environment.
00:06:50
Speaker
which presumably given the context of the way they go on about it rather than dealing with, you know, an alien invasion of the starship at that early stage in the episode suggests
Workplace Violence Analogy
00:06:59
Speaker
that it wasn't a full stress environment.
00:07:04
Speaker
I think I'm following. Obviously, we do not endorse physical violence at the workplace, but... Don't worry. I'm just not really clear on this. He shoved her first. Yeah, he did shove her first. Then she shoved back and then she hit him. So I'm just saying, it takes two to tango on a Star Trek... It absolutely does. Also, extenuating circumstances are that, A, in the Star Trek universe, even serious injuries like that can be magically healed with a...
00:07:32
Speaker
I think that they said...
00:07:36
Speaker
Chokote said, oh, if it had been like an inch to the left, it would have been fractures. But in fact, it wasn't fractures. Correct. I think he says it would have actually gone into his cerebellum. But there were fractures. I was very clear about this in the notes. I was very clear about this. Well, Tuvok wants to put her in the brig for 75 years. This is a curiously literal response to the situation.
00:08:05
Speaker
although does he want to put her in the brig for 75 years because that's what cicote is implying it'll be because that's how long until someone can actually you know judge her but um actually to vodka saying no you wouldn't need to wait 75 years you just have the captain do it so yeah i i feel that's uh an incorrect accusation of our chief security officer and i would like that to be taken back if possible
00:08:34
Speaker
Well, I mean, obviously, Tuvok is very clear in these situations. I think things are very black and white for him. But that meant he had to, like, accept Chakotay's, basically, demand, because Chakotay is senior to him. He's the first officer. So ultimately, he has to just do what he thought. There is that sort of moment of tension between them, suggesting, you know, there's a potential fault line in the crew where he goes, I'll have to file a full report. You do that. Which will be randomly dismissive. Witheringly dismissive.
00:09:04
Speaker
Yes, there definitely is a bit of tension there because there's still, oh well, I guess Tuvok betrayed Jakote, so that makes sense. Yeah. There's also a whole lot of, you know, there's been an assault and
00:09:19
Speaker
Tuvok asks Chakotay, or as he's called in an accent, which I did pick up on Chakotay. Ah, I mentioned it in the podcast. Yeah. It was a different pronunciation. Yeah. And by podcast, I mean the
Character Dynamics: Tuvok and Chakotay
00:09:34
Speaker
Delta players, but yes, carry on. Yeah. And it seemed quite a Latinate pronunciation of it, which I thought was an interesting spin on it. But there's the whole thing that
00:09:49
Speaker
Chikoshi implies that he's going to deal with the situation without making Janeway aware of it. And that's a bit of an odd one. I think he said he would inform Janeway. He said yet, didn't he? He doesn't know yet. I'm not sure. I can do so. We're talking about what they call each other in the early episodes. There were quite a few interesting ones of them.
00:10:14
Speaker
in this one, as well as the sort of cicote kind of tribal pronunciation. Tom Barris calls Voyager the Voyager. Oh, yes, they also mentioned that and apparently the actors fought against that wording. Why are we calling it the Voyager? But also in Star Trek one, I think a lot of one hour dramas are not allowed to deviate from the script or improvise at all. So they had to go ahead with the Voyager.
00:10:43
Speaker
It sounds really odd now. Yeah, I don't think they could recall why they were told to do that, but they were both like, yes, we were like, this is so dumb, it's Voyager. Why are we calling it Voyager? Yeah. They also start the story out for the doctor and that they all refer to him as it at the beginning. Oh, I miss that.
00:11:07
Speaker
Um, but I think straight off to like, off the, that tense moment was Chakote. Okay. We see Saskia or sesca. I, a Jenny, I always kind of get excited when I see that.
00:11:22
Speaker
is she the ex uh marquee one? Probably because two two marquee come up to yes and sort of do the whole school trial i heard this i heard this i heard this i heard they're gonna lock her up i heard they're gonna do this to them and keep we're with you and uh cicote sort of walks a fine but firm line saying that mutiny should see them thrown up in the bridge and he'll see them thrown up in there in the bridge well she becomes a very big character and she's a very
00:11:52
Speaker
I don't want to give too much away, but that was our first sighting, I think, of her. Yeah. It seems very gossip girly for Star Trek. She's got that classic attitude of someone who just wants to cause trouble. I think it comes across very well later, as well, when she's trying to make things bigger than they really are. Okay. Interesting. I think the
Non-Starfleet Command Roles Representation
00:12:17
Speaker
next scene, we're in Balana's quarters.
00:12:19
Speaker
And it's Ilana and her protein. And we find out more about his plans for her career. Yeah. It doesn't seem like there's much trust between them there. It has to be said. Well, she is just like a human because I guess that's a lot of common. So how long do I have to stay in here? Rest of the trip? 75 years. That was funny. I agree. Yeah, it's I do
00:12:48
Speaker
No, I'm interested in other people's take on that one because it's a complicated sort of environment and scenario and it is a little bit like where do we go from she's knocked out her direct superior to I think you should be the boss? Well, I think what must be frustrating for Chakotay is he obviously had been planning that in his mind for her but hadn't communicated with everyone.
00:13:13
Speaker
and wasn't realizing she was going to punch someone in the meantime. So, I don't think it's like she punched someone and he's like, oh, now you should be chief of engineering. Now he's like, oh, now it's going to be even harder to get you into that role because you punched someone. And maybe that's where some of that tension is from. Okay, interesting. And she, you know, just rails against like any kind of structure or Starfleet. Disciplined.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yeah, discipline. Well, is it discipline? Yeah, more on that later in the podcast, I guess. That's true. Anything else on that? But I feel like it's a bit like me when I'm trying to get someone hired or promoted and then they do something stupid. I'm like, well, no, what am I supposed to do?
00:14:05
Speaker
Like, cancel the interview three times. I'm like, it's okay. Well, you're out going now.
Nostalgia in Star Trek Opening Credits
00:14:10
Speaker
Oh, wow. It is an interesting one. Then I think we have the credits, which I watched again, because I always watch the credits.
00:14:21
Speaker
I'm interested in how much you focus on the credits sequence because I almost just blotted out from my mind in most episodes that I watch. When I watched the episode last week, it was slightly different because it was the first time. But when I'm watching a series, I'm very rarely... Oh, yes. But that was what I said last week. I always skip the credits on the opening sequence. I think this one is so moving and so...
00:14:45
Speaker
It really gets you in the mood for the episode. Yeah. And also, I do obviously skip them now, but back when it was originally on, you did just have to sit through them. So you really knew them really well. Yeah. Because every single episode you sit and you wait, you listen to the nice music and you see the pretty graphics. And, you know, that's why they become so familiar to and comforting to you when you're older because you act to watch them so many times.
00:15:15
Speaker
And I mean, now probably I'm replying to an email or something while it's on screen, but I do like the music and I like the kind of atmosphere that it creates. But then the next thing we see, I think they're in the, I keep calling it the brief conference room, but I think it's the breathing room. With the senior Starfleet offices and they are... And the senior Talaxin and the senior Akampa.
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I didn't make enough notes. All I made a note was that funny line from Tuvok. That would be inconvenient but acceptable. What is he talking about? He's literally allowing his entire team to be moved from where they're operating to somewhere that's going to be massively suboptimal.
00:16:00
Speaker
You wouldn't see someone acting. Yeah, it's like I wish people would be able to swallow stuff on the basis that it's inconvenient and acceptable for the great good in like a real life grown-up environment. I like that. Yes, he is my role model. I wish I spoke like him. Yeah, but then there's that nice contrast in that scene, isn't there? Because you have that sort of
00:16:25
Speaker
input. But then you have Neelix and Kes sort of thrust in there. There's an incredible juxtaposition, all of these individuals being incredibly serious. And Janeway sort of let accepting, albeit grudgingly, that he probably has local knowledge that they could do with access to. But also there's a massive sort of seniority and
00:16:52
Speaker
maturity gulf that you sort of feel that Neelix provides a comic relief to them just by sort of, A, yeah, I'm the senior Salaxian and she's the senior accompanist, but also, you know, saying while they're all getting on about their skill sets and highly complex sort of Starfleet things, I can do some incredible things with root vegetables.
00:17:17
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, that scene is very funny, but I think it's like also, again, I guess, I think I said before, that I'm more Tuvok and I've had friends who are more Neelix. And I would just find that attitude so irritating. I know, I did as well, actually. Not because I'm exclusive, but I think I'm quite like one, you know, like I'm all about flat structures at work and include people and don't exclude people, but people pushing their way in.
00:17:45
Speaker
like that would annoy me i'm not that's a bad probably character trait on my part but
00:17:51
Speaker
Jenny, what did you think? He is quite an annoying character, isn't he? I think he's meant to be, like, that's part of his personality, so... Oh yeah, that's our purpose. Well done. He is a bit annoying, but, you know, also very nice. A slightly creepy touchy relationship with Kes, that I'm not sure has aged well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you can kind of tell his age a little bit underneath all the
00:18:18
Speaker
costume, can't you? Plus, there's the thing where she's actually supposed to be like, seven, seven years old or something. But then as she only lives till like nine, I guess that means she's actually really old. It's all very strange. Yeah, I mean, he is a great character. But in that moment, I was very annoyed with him. And I guess that's the point that was effective storytelling. But they do like contribute a few good ideas. And I guess Kes suggests that they use
00:18:46
Speaker
create a hydroponic lab or somewhere to grow fruit or vegetable. And then I guess, yeah. What had happened to the replicators to stop them being able to produce infinite amounts of food? I think, well, again, I was hoping you could fill me on the detail, Jamie, but I think it's not the replicators, because they can bring them back online, but energy. They can't assume they have an infinite supply of energy. Yeah.
00:19:14
Speaker
okay because they won't know you know back in the alpha quadrant they're sort of regularly stocking up i guess or i don't know well i don't really know stocking up how do they do energy they stop off at the nearest war petrol station or something they obviously can't do that in the delta quadrant presumably as as frequently
00:19:38
Speaker
As we said before, we need like an actual astrophysicist on this podcast. I'm just like making crap up. Would a replicator work without any power? Or could you replicate the actual materials you needed to generate power with the replicator? That's a good question, Jamie. But maybe it's energy is conserved, right? So
00:20:01
Speaker
You can't get more energy or a system that you put in. Yeah. I mean, you can't have just keep having enough energy to create more energy.
00:20:14
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not engaging. Yeah, I really don't know anything. You sound like a big cultural fratatial. That's just something I remember vaguely from high school. Well, although it hasn't... This is a future. Yeah. You know how in the future, like a lot of your scientific, there's some of them change, don't they? Yeah. Well, I'm going to Google it to count. I replicate them.
00:20:44
Speaker
I feel like I'm having a bluff that I wasn't actually using called. Uh, this might take a while, so this could be bad. That's okay. We'll, we'll claim that it's raw. Replicators cannot create something from energy alone. Okay. This is a whole side note. Maybe research that, come back to it. Follow up question.
00:21:17
Speaker
I think next, they're still in the briefing room but they get to the question about personnel. So that's when Chakotay pitches Velana to Janeway and Janeway's face I think says no. Is this also the bit where Janeway sort of implies that no one from the marquee is ever going to be in a position of authority on the ship because no one has seniority because they've not been at Starfleet longer than a day.
00:21:45
Speaker
Yeah, her argument is that it would be unfair on a Starfleet personnel to have people that have seen it to them, but didn't have to work as hard as they did to get into the position. Is it that they didn't work as hard? Yeah, because she said they did it their whole lives to getting into Starfleet. Yeah, he makes the probably sensible counter argument that if you go along with that, then none of his people will ever
00:22:12
Speaker
And she does she doesn't really that because she doesn't want people. But the reality is they kind of are, it's a bit like the argument for like, you know, doing things to help, you know, minorities, you know, and is that sort of, well,
00:22:32
Speaker
I made a note of Janeway non-DNI approach to seniority. So I think I agree with you. But she sort of fudged. I was just saying what she said. I'm not saying I agree with her. I never thought you were. I was about to sort of take on the ethical and logical shortfalls in that one of Janeway's position, if I could violate the rule that we never criticise Janeway on this podcast.
00:23:01
Speaker
It all depends, isn't it? If you're identifying the marquee as a separate, vulnerable group, in which case... I disagree. I disagree. I think... Well, no, they kind of are a vulnerable, small group. They're my argument. I think that misses the point. And she misses Jamie's next point. Prejudice against them, you know? So, maybe they should have proportional representation in leadership positions.
00:23:24
Speaker
Well, it's sort of weird because for a universe in which Starfleet is supposedly so meritocratic, for Janeway to say it would be unfair to the Starfleet officers because they'd worked harder, she seems to be aggregating time in Starfleet with ability in, you know, sphere of expertise. I think it's a very highly competitive program. You know, I mean, it might be, but like,
00:23:49
Speaker
The argument being made for Bologna is she's just a better engineer, you know, people management skills aside. Sorry, I'm turning this into an HL podcast. Sorry about that, guys. Well, at some point later, I definitely had a question. It does fudge meritocracy with, you know, time at Starfleet and I'm a bit like... And then, you know, the whole, like, equality of opportunity comes into it because, yes, those people worked very hard to go to Starfleet Academy, but they probably were in a good starting position or as the marquee, as I understand it, were defending their home.
00:24:19
Speaker
for most of their previous life. Yeah, I mean, you join the marquee because you disagree with the alliance that's been set up with the contest. So it's like a political one. So they could have had the same opportunities, but they chose a different path. And I think the point, I think obviously she has no reasons.
00:24:36
Speaker
But at the end of the day, we know what happens, so she's able to change her mind. I think something comes up later when I was like, oh, that's good change management. It's not just me that looks at this this way. Yeah, I made a note, Jamie, I hope I haven't missed it. But I think the rest of the scene, Tom gets what I'm told to become a field medic.
00:24:56
Speaker
Just because he has that little bit of biochemistry bias. And then there's the disruption and the shaking. And it turns out there's a type 4 quantum singularity out there. And it's sending out spatial distortions. Yeah. And there's also like an audio transmission from inside, which they can't clear up in here.
00:25:19
Speaker
And then they figure out or believe that this other ship is another ship, rather trapped in an event horizon. And I was very grateful to Neelix, or because he was like, what's an event horizon? So Neelix has to explain. Well, except he doesn't really sort of tell her what it is. He just says that he was once nearly caught in one. Energy field around a synchronous, around a singularity, he says. A collapsing star. Yeah, that's it. Okay. So that was some exposition thrown in there.
00:25:53
Speaker
Um, so they need to figure out how to pull the ship from the event horizon. Um, I think, oh my gosh, I can't really.
00:26:01
Speaker
understand these notes, but they basically have to kind of create a subspace tractor beam, I think. Yeah. Um, Carrie is still in charge of that point, but I think Balana is like assigned to help him. Could be less remembering that. Yeah. What do you guys think of, um, the, the decision that she makes to immediately call Balana for her opinion on it, even though Carrie's senior, is that, is that allowed? Cause he thinks she will know cause she has the background expertise.
00:26:31
Speaker
And therefore that's okay. Or is it like Jamie seems to think that it's not the junior engineer. So it should be Carrie that they call. Cause I wasn't, I wasn't really sure. Well, I think to me it seemed like really natural. Again, I'm more like, I honestly, when I watched Star Trek in 2019, I don't think I've said it. I was like, wow, the corporate world makes so much more sense to me now. Cause I learned stuff about like the chain of command.
00:26:58
Speaker
that, you know, is in something like the army or maybe on a spaceship. And that I think filtered or definitely heavily influenced how business and corporations, the industrial age and all that kind of stuff. And we still have remnants of that today, even though I don't think that's the most effective way to run or manage a company and manage people. And so I was like, what was wrong with that? Everyone asked an opinion. So Jenny, I'm with you there, I think.
00:27:22
Speaker
I didn't see it, but obviously I wasn't really sure. I was like, Oh, is that, um, she had two completely different opinions on it. I mean, I was like, Oh, I don't know. I mean, in one sense, yeah, you think you'd call on the person who's most likely to be able to solve the problem, especially if it was like a life or death situation. But then I guess in life or death situations, it's also important to respect the chain of command. So it's okay to let us speak every night. Oh, sorry.
00:27:52
Speaker
Yeah, I always sort of struggle for things to say when sort of describing individual like
00:27:58
Speaker
scenes and phrases and things but I love the like sort of more general philosophical debates that Star Trek brings up and how you can sort of compare them to modern day debates. Well it's sort of that that is influencing my hand up because I'm like I think I've seen a couple of episodes in some of the various other series and in none of them where they need an engineering opinion does anyone go to anyone but like
00:28:28
Speaker
the chief engineer for it. They never go to a second or anything like that. It's always just chief engineer is the guy you go to. You never have, I don't know, beam me up Spock is the first point of call. It's beam me up Scotty.
00:28:44
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, this is the idea of command. Yeah, so like, it has been disregarded. So I think it's wrong on Chikote's part. So I'm with Janeway. You should have gone to Carrie, you think? Yeah, absolutely. He wanted the chief of engineering to give them an insight. I mean, you would be grumpy if you were Carrie, wouldn't you? Yeah. You'd have to accept it and all. Yeah, I think we've discussed a lot of what may come on the ready room because
00:29:13
Speaker
I also had like, in my notes, out of line question mark. And Janeway is like, I can't make it too easy. And we found she was happy to promote Shikote, basically, because he kind of fits the mold, even though he has this other dodgy experience by start these sounds. I think he says something like, they need more authority if you want their loyalty. And I was like, that's good to change management. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that one. Yeah. No question on that one.
00:29:42
Speaker
It's the whole concept of like buy-in and... No taxation without representation. Yeah. And just separate talking, but okay. No, no, no, but it is that sort of thing. You don't ask someone for something without them having something invested back and getting something back. Yeah, involving the stakeholders from the start of the project.
00:30:06
Speaker
Yeah, this could turn into a project management project. We're a business consultancy one. So yeah, maybe we have some more lasers next episode because laser pointers, PowerPoint presentations. Yeah, I feel like the world doesn't want corporate UKs take on Star Trek, oddly enough. What is going to be a huge hit? Yes, when we move away from my natural comfort place.
00:30:32
Speaker
I mean, maybe you should, maybe, you know, I've gone on and on and on about my favorite podcast ever. How, I was gonna say, how about your mother? My dad wrote a quarter. That book is so funny because it's a mix of this terrible erotica and business, like acumen and tips. And so it's like this weird, funny mix that makes it so amusing. Can't recommend it more, because I've been told millions of times. Okay.
00:31:00
Speaker
Um, next up we're on the sick bay because kids need some dirt. I think she used something way more technical. I don't know. It's got alliteration as well. So you noticed a very small detail there. I don't know how I remember that. That's weird. But then the doctors like, Oh, so now I'm going to treat just every single pimple. Is that it? And I'm like, how did you get from a soil sample to pimple treatment?
00:31:30
Speaker
He was very grumpy and he escalated quickly. Sure. I'll give her the opportunity to describe him as sensitive and brings up this whole theme that then runs all through about is he a thing or is he a person and it relates even now to like
00:31:51
Speaker
AI and how it's going to progress and are we going to have to one day consider treating it as like an actual person and then identity. It's kind of fascinating as a bike.
00:32:04
Speaker
This scene also exploded my sort of nascent theory that was sort of built earlier on in the episode, where I was starting to sort of build to the conclusion that in Star Trek universe, they sort of subliminally signal who has power in the room by how much forehead they have on show.
00:32:28
Speaker
I had a lot of foreheads. What does that mean? Let me explain. Because when you have that command scene with, you know, Kes and Neelix in there...
00:32:37
Speaker
of all of, I mean, Janeway is in full hair, hair pulled back proper, big forehead sort of mode. Kez as one of the more sort of, you know, less ranking people has forehead sort of relatively covered. And Neelix, well, you know, he's trying to claim authority has a bit more, you know, forehead coverage. And I was starting to be like, is this a thing that
00:32:59
Speaker
you know, the producers of Star Trek are doing of like, you know, if this is a power figure, whatever culture crew or whatever, they're gonna have, you know, four heads, very much sort of prominent. But then the doctor absolutely exploded that because he's all forehead and he never has any power. But that is a really interesting point because the doctor was that character apparently was only supposed to have a few scenes like and was supposed to be a super minor character into like one of the main
00:33:28
Speaker
Wow. And also, just on that, I mean, I think everyone's appearance and everything is very much on purpose, but they put a lot of thought in heart there. But one thing I promised myself when we started this podcast, which I did not share with you, is that we will never discuss anyone's hair. Because, okay, Janeway's hair was a big deal, like in the 90s, having a female captain, and even I got so much commentary and
00:33:56
Speaker
like ridiculous kind of. What about? Her hair is amazing. And they were trying to figure out what a woman captain's hair would be like because it's never been a woman's captain or whatever.
00:34:07
Speaker
I think it's probably more the fact that they spent so much talking time talking about it that was the big, not whether it was negative or positive, it was just like, if there's a male captain, would they spend this much time talking about it? No, but then also, as an actor in a series, she got way more commentary on her hair and stuff like that. So I promised myself we would never discuss that it was hair that way, because it already has enough hair time. Interesting. I can't give you my only one fact that I have.
00:34:39
Speaker
But it's because she told it at one of her lectures. And it was just that apparently she has all these really complex hairstyles in the first season because that's what they decided to do. And then at the end of the first season, she said to them, this is crazy. Like when does she, when does this captain have the time to do this hair? It's completely unrealistic. Obviously, you know, sci-fi, you know, there is some non-realism there, obviously.
00:35:07
Speaker
They, she basically said to them, can we stop with these complicated hairstyles? And they agreed. I thought that does make sense. Yeah, because you wouldn't, would you? You wouldn't be fanning about with your hair. It's probably a British descriptive word. So the doctor was very sensitive, but not only sensitive, he was also shrinking, which was absolutely
00:35:35
Speaker
very tragic for him but did provide some comedy relief I would say. Yeah and everyone always say it's a very busy day we can't get around to you. He just keeps getting dismissed. But also Kiss is the first person to ask him what's your name and then that is also another thing that runs through hate.
00:35:56
Speaker
I'm glad he got the opportunity to stick around then and develop this character because I do think he's a brilliant character throughout the whole thing and he's such a fantastic actor. Yeah, I think that's why his role expanded from what I have to tell from listening to podcasts and reading. I just want to show you the actual, I don't know if you can see it. I saw this magazine, actually they had a ton of them at this like local market. It's like from 1995.
00:36:25
Speaker
And I bought it like ages ago. Is that your Captain Janeway? No, that is Julian Anderson. Oh, sorry. I didn't think it looked different. It's called Dreamwatch. I think it was like a sci-fi magazine or something, sci-fi TV magazine. And they have an article in it about Star Trek and they interviewed Jerry Ryan, one of the writers.
00:36:42
Speaker
Wait, Jerry Ryan? Wasn't she sending her money? Oh, sorry, Jerry Taylor. Oh, right, yeah, yeah. Don't ask me why that's the one character I'm the name of. Well done. But it's really funny. I should try shows with you somehow. What does the article say? Key? Interesting. I'll have to save that for next week, but it was just selling for next time. Wait, why do you have a magazine from like the 90s? Because I found it like in our local market.
00:37:13
Speaker
What's it doing in the local market? My local market has everything, guys. Did you spend like 600 pounds on a vintage magazine? This was 50p probably, maybe 10p.
00:37:22
Speaker
I'm genuinely intrigued as to who put that on eBay, how much that would get. I could get the whole series, like there was like 10. I just went for the ones that had Voyager on the cover. Genuinely, can you try putting that on eBay and seeing how much that goes for us, you know, sort of vintage 90s magazine, sci-fi paraphernalia and telling us next week? I will, I will. I bet it's a mate. Anyway, carry on.
00:37:48
Speaker
Um, no, no. So back to the episode. So now they're on the bridge and I think they're trying the tractor beam, but they are...
00:37:55
Speaker
The ship's being pulled apart, I think. And Kerry basically actually saves the day because he has to manually shut off the tractor beam, I think that's what happened. Yeah, I did think that maybe he was going to be injured in it, and that was going to be what opened up a path for Bologna, who was very telegraphed, was going to be the chief engineer, to go through and beat the chief engineer and that that would make it okay because he'd been heroically incapacitated or killed, as opposed to she beats him up and then she takes his job.
00:38:25
Speaker
Yeah, I see. I see why you thought that, definitely. There's a long pause in contemplation there. Am I still the lowest common intellectual denominator on this?
00:38:37
Speaker
No, no, no, no. Sorry. I'm also just thinking of the next point because I made a note here again. So then like, I think earlier, Niex was like, why don't we go to Illidarium or Illidarium? And she was like, no, no. But now they're like, oh, we should go. But they didn't ever go, right? They never went there. They couldn't because they were trapped in...
00:38:56
Speaker
And we got into this weird situation, which was like, I don't know if you guys remember the Matrix 2, when Neo's stuck in that subway, and every time he goes out one end, he comes back the other end, and every time they tried to accelerate away, they found themselves back by the singularity. Okay, that's why they didn't get there. Right, I was like, why? But before we get to that, oh, sorry, just a little quickly before we get there,
00:39:25
Speaker
They decided to make or for the local planet where they could get some help. But the next thing we see there in the ready room, and it's Balana and Janeway. And it's the scene where Balana's like, she feels bad that the tractor beam didn't work. But Janeway's actually not really interested in that. She's like, it's not your fault. She wants to discuss the chief engineer role. And the whole question comes up about whether it's not really about her engineering skills, but can she command others? And does she have the right staff, the knowledge?
00:39:54
Speaker
And I think Jamie's trying to make an effort to get to know her. It's a bit of a direct way of doing it. Alana's not reacted very well, I guess, at this stage. Would you? Because there's other ways of trying to get to know someone than, like, hello. Are you good enough to be head of a team for an organisation which you've shunned and rejected your entire life?
00:40:16
Speaker
I 100% agree but I can imagine this happening in a corporate setting I guess. I'm sure there's kind of these kind of direct in business like someone's like oh do you actually think you're good enough or not that's really Jamie's perspective but um or maybe it's just happened to me I don't know. Has someone actually come to you and been like Red are you good enough?
00:40:34
Speaker
Yeah. And then it wasn't Jamie Lowe. No, it wasn't Jamie Lowe. It's like, why do you think you're good enough? Anyway, I'm gonna have to edit out some names out of it. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. It's fine. I can't edit take anything. Jamie, your signal has gone yellow. What does that mean? I have no idea. Can you still hear me? You better don't see recording. Uh,
00:41:03
Speaker
User is experiencing connection issues, but recording is being saved locally. Okay, no problem. Right. I guess she is sort of interviewing her, but she hasn't really told her that it's an interview.
00:41:20
Speaker
Seems a little unfair, but then I guess it is a kind of must-make-quick-decisions kind of scenario. I also find it a little bit weird. She thinks she's being brought there to be hauled over hot coals about the tractor beam not working, as opposed to hauled there to be dragged over hot coals for chinning Carrie. Good point. We can clearly see where her folkie are, but like
00:41:48
Speaker
Yeah, she's very single-minded when it comes to engineering. Yeah. But that scene ends, I think, with, like, Janeway being like, why did you leave Starfleet? And Alana doesn't really give a very good answer yet. Yeah. And the doctor is trying to get hold of, well, manages to get hold of Janeway and to tell her he's still shrinking. She just smiles and was like... It's not a problem for her, I am.
00:42:15
Speaker
And the doctor's upset because he didn't know about the singularity because he's actually had like nine people reporting to sick babe. He's like, would be helpful idea about these things. Yeah. She does. But Janeway actually acknowledges that. Yes, she does. Like realizes there needs to be a change to like the information flow.
00:42:36
Speaker
Um, are you laughing at my use of the word information? You know exactly what I'm laughing at. I don't know where that came from. I've never said those two words next to each other in my life. You know exactly why I'm laughing. Um, then there's more bumps and spatial distortions. And apparently there's another type for singularity. Yeah. But as you said earlier, Jamie, they're actually going around in circles. Yeah. And I love the description.
00:43:04
Speaker
when they finally realize what's going on or where the banana works out and her and Jane may get into a bit of a, you know, excited while we're figuring it out. And then I think Tom Paris asks the most easy to make sense of question and says, am I making sense? And January says no.
00:43:24
Speaker
Yeah, he said it. Completely making sense. Which is not, yeah. Why is stuff happening before we make it happen? We have skipped quite a lot.
00:43:41
Speaker
Give us continuity, Red. Give us continuity. But I think just for the listeners, of which we have not now, we should try at least that one. I reckon we should, you know, twist some of our friends' arms just to listen to this one so we get one. Oh, sorry, this is a, no one must ever see this. No one I know. This must never see the lives of Dave Snario. He likes to do things in secret. Strangers can listen. Okay.
00:44:07
Speaker
I agree. So that's when they figure out they're actually going around in circles and they're like, senses and the logs are contradicting each other and no one has anything that's going on. So JMA tries that experiment where they move away from a single LRC while tracking their monitors and they just kind of land up back in the same place, even though the readings were.
00:44:26
Speaker
So Janeway asked for all the data to be sent to her ready room so she can do her own analysis, which I thought was pretty cool. She's the boss. Where I work, my bosses don't do analysis. They're allowed interns. So I was like, I respected her for that. And then I think she calls like a staff meeting at some point in time and she's like,
00:44:47
Speaker
still pushing for belongs inclusion. Yeah, this is a key moment that he insists that she be there. And I'm quite surprised that Janeway accepts. Yeah. But I mean, it is, as Jamie said earlier, maybe like the severity or seriousness of the situation. She does say, he does say, unless you've just counted her consideration. And I'm like, well,
00:45:14
Speaker
I do remember him passing Janeway a number of names. So are they going to invite everyone? It's an engineering specific problem. Well, is it an engineering specific problem? Yeah. But when earlier in the episode, they passed a list of names for the position of chief of engineering. I thought maybe it was for multiple positions. It was multiple positions. He said a list of my key names should be good officers. Maybe that was it then.
00:45:42
Speaker
And I suppose even if there were other names in the mix, um, this was her, um, sphere of expertise. Yeah. And she, she sort of came up with the possible ways to counter it. Didn't she? So it makes sense for her to be in the meeting. Yeah.
00:45:58
Speaker
Um, then we just have a little scene in engineering with Carrie and Balana, where I think he says to her, you've been invited to the staff meeting. She's like, I'll be sure to relay everything. Yeah, I'll give you an update. And then he's like, massively toxic, hostile boss back of go there, but don't say anything. I'll be there too. Which I guess, again, is fair enough on his part. We're gonna why she assumed that. His next follow up is a little bit sort of harsh of don't, don't put your hand up. Don't say anything. Yeah.
00:46:26
Speaker
It's a bit of, I'll give you an update versus hostile boss. Would you call that passive, passive aggression or? That's aggressive aggressive. And then Saskia I think comes up and it's like, you should have broken more than his nose. That's a bit of trouble. Oh yeah. That minx. Then we have a walk and talk, as I like to call it, in the style of, what's his name? Aaron Salkin. I'm not ready. With Harry Kim and Tewak.
00:46:57
Speaker
Harry cam is like gossiping again about all the um i think things about to become violent yeah yeah and uh yeah i sorry i i there was a point there that two boxers i'd hardly say things are about to become violent they might be characterized as tense tense but not violent and i was like please tell me the next scene is them walking into the engineering someone's smacking someone else with a chair
00:47:23
Speaker
Yeah, that would have been very funny. They missed an opportunity there, just saying. Although Tupac did have some funny lines, like, or I found them funny, like you said there. And I'll never cease to be amazed at the human capacity for hyperbole, which I liked. Although, I wasn't very confused by that, because I thought that it has been violent, because
00:47:48
Speaker
No one apart from Bologna has been violent. People are at each other's throats. I'm going to beat each other to death with, I mean, the chairs are stopped down. So presumably not the chairs, but whatever else they have, I'm assuming far extinguishers are no good. You're looking at...
00:48:08
Speaker
I got struck down by that headache. So he has to go to sickbay. And the doctor zooms into the conference room to say there's 27 more victims or people in point sickbay. He's still shrinking. Jamie finished her analysis and she doesn't know what's going on. And again, I kind of like that she's not afraid to admit she has no idea what's going on. And she's like, obviously,
00:48:36
Speaker
happy to ask for help from the rest of the team. And then we like balling up to like, Carrie, I think suggests something which I did not pick up. And Volana is like, that's not going to work. Yeah. But she suggests an alternative thing to help them communicate with the other ship. And that's when I, my little note here is be hot JW. This is when the little
00:48:59
Speaker
engineering mans, I don't know what that term is, begins to develop, you know, like, as they start to work together to solve this problem. Oh, yeah. Right. It's not a romance. It's not a romance. It's an engineering. Captain Janeway and between Bologna as they sort of riff off. Yeah, I thought that was a bit weird. Like, it's sort of really over egged. It's like, hey, look, there's professional chemistry here. So Bologna must be up to the job.
00:49:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think, again, that's a little bit weird, but they said, yeah, I think we'll get to it. So then they're back on the bridge, and they are able to open the communication channel to the other ship. The first thing that comes back once they've cleared the other signal is just Janeway's original hail. Yeah, that was freaky. Yeah, you're like, oh, that is creepy. And then they clarify the image. And then, Jenny, it's your favorite line. It's the Voyager.
00:50:00
Speaker
And that is pretty, I would say pretty alarming. I would feel. What use of that Voyager or the fact that they can see themselves in outer space. I've been in the census confirm its Voyager, they try to hail up, but there's no response. And I think Alana is like, she's come up with this explanation.
00:50:25
Speaker
which I just summarized as it's a time delayed reflection. So it's actually voyages stuck in a singularity, not another ship as first thought. Yeah. Sounds sensible to me. I just, I just, you know, I do think comparison makes the most sense. He makes a lot of sense because he's like, well, how can we see something? How can we see something? Yeah. And Jamie's just like, no, no, you don't make any sense. But I do, I do appreciate her response. She's like, no, that's not right because
00:50:54
Speaker
In reality, you can observe a reaction from a cause before the cause has happened. And I have this weird feeling like that. Maybe that does happen in chemistry, something from like GCSE chemistry. It's time travel mechanics.
00:51:11
Speaker
the sea but actually I'm not gonna go in relative speed of light and stuff like that but oddly like it's a bit of a weird one because Tom Paris is almost asking how can we be seeing an effect before the cause has happened and January's and he's like
00:51:29
Speaker
Am I making sense? Does that make sense? That's what I'm asking. I'd say excellent. And he does, and she's like, yes. She's like, no, that doesn't make sense. And then goes on to explain to him his own question. She provides the answer, but I think he does make sense. She explains his own question to him. She's like, you're basically asking how we can observe an effect before a cause. And sometimes her answer is, and sometimes you can observe an effect before a cause. But she uses the word...
00:51:58
Speaker
Temporal mechanics, so that breaks some credibility. Yeah, but like he wasn't saying that. Oh, I agree. It wasn't the case. He was just like, how is it the case? So I feel patronised on behalf of Tom Parris. Well, so what's the name of the actor now? Tom Parris. Robert Duncan McNeil. Yeah, he also felt patronised on behalf of Tom Parris. He said exactly the same thing in the podcast that comes to this episode. He's like, I'm making total sense.
00:52:27
Speaker
The way she says, the way she says no, it's like, yes, you're making sense, but you're overlooking the fact you're overlooking temporal mechanics or something. She's like, no, you're not making sense. Like, it is. Yeah. No, I'm just to just clarify, I do not in any way criticize Jamie's response to it.
00:52:44
Speaker
I just, you know, I understand how Tom feels because his question is exactly the question I would have asked like, but how, if we haven't arrived yet, how can there already be a reflection of us there? And then there's a whole, it's the whole same conundrum whenever you talk about like time travel in sci-fi as well. But if you've gone and you've changed one thing, you can't go back to the same time because stuff will have changed. Anyway.
00:53:13
Speaker
I just thought that was all quite an interesting discussion amongst the group of them. I mean, Tom was speaking for the us lay people at home, for sure. Yes. Because if he didn't ask that question, I would have no idea what's going on.
00:53:27
Speaker
Absolutely. I mean, I still have no idea what's going on, but I appreciate the question. So I guess, yeah, because then they realized that voyage is going to be crushed within like nine hours, and they need to find a crack in the ice, which refers back to Boulona's explanation of sitting at the bottom of the pond looking up senior reflection in the ice. But what is it reflecting off?
00:53:46
Speaker
the ice? That's what I wanted to ask you. Yeah, I get that it's a metaphor. What is the actual ice? Is it the singularity? The ventral horizon or the singularity, yeah. I don't really understand this, but you know, they have to crack the ice to get out of this sort of weird, infinite temporal loop. Yeah. Somehow. Which involves a tachyon beam.
00:54:10
Speaker
And this involves the bit, I think Jane, that you're saying, where it's a bit like, I don't know why I want to say egg donk, but they like whoop particles. And that becomes like a, yeah, it feels a little bit like. A refrain. I was going to say a refrain. Like, especially tachyon beam. That's often the answer to many problems. I don't know.
00:54:35
Speaker
I wish I had one. It seems to solve us a lot of solutions. It's a hypothetical particle that always travels faster than light, which physics believe can't exist. But this is where the love affair, Bolana and Jane, we are ready.
00:54:52
Speaker
kicks into gear, like it was hints of it earlier, then they're kind of like, it's like watching, almost like that scene is like seeing two people in a like rom-com where they like meet on the bridge and like the world around them is just like swirling. Yeah, this is a bit like, this is a weird thing. Yeah, but then again, it's really nice to see that kind of thing, two people connecting on an intellectual and on a level that isn't about
00:55:20
Speaker
heterosexual romance, to be honest, because everything is about that. Or any romance, I would argue. Yeah, or any, yeah, to be fair. And it's just like, it doesn't always, it's frustrating in the in the movie world and the programme world, it's always about like, sexual leads to like, you know, it's possible to have really meaningful and, you know, intimate relationships that aren't like romance or sexual relationships, you know, just about two people connecting. So I really appreciate when they have a lot of that in Star Trek.
00:55:50
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's why I loved it growing up. I think that's why I still love it now because I think friendship is one of my core values or whatever. And that's why I love Janeway and Two Bucks really. I mean, I love there's so many friendships actually on that show. I agree. I 100% agree. No one has a friendship with HR lead on that shit. Sorry, carry on. There's definitely some diversity inclusion HR that needed that. I was going to say as well that- There are a lot of aliens on this ship.
00:56:20
Speaker
How many aliens do they have in the command crew? What are the relative percentages? Well that's why they're adding Balan Islamic. I mean some might say that's tokenism.
00:56:38
Speaker
I mean, she, but this is the scene where she actually proves though, that it's not, it won't be just tokenism. She solves it. She's the better engineer. Although I would, in Janeway's position, it would be obvious to me now that she, she's going to be an asset and a great engineer and she's the better engineer. And she's, she's showing that in front of the group as well, which is good because then later Carrie maybe can accept a bit, a bit more. However,
00:57:02
Speaker
They never addressed the issue which came to be brought up at the start, which was her ability to create a cohesive team that will listen to her command.
00:57:19
Speaker
it requires a bit of interpersonal skills, isn't it, to command a team? They sort of demonstrate it because they have her sort of, in her first scene at the end, you know, now she's in command, she's a big choose, she's like, do this, do that, please.
00:57:36
Speaker
And then there's like that bit at which sort of magically at the end, she and Kerry appear to have moved past their issues, hers of being violent, his being toxic, and he's like, let's watch it 100%. Put it there.
00:57:52
Speaker
Sorry, we're moving way ahead. Yeah, no, no, that's fine. Back to the bridge, though. They released these wall particles so they can scan the singularity. And Tom Paris picks up a slightly irregularity rupture, which is only 50 meters by 10 meters. So they need to make it bigger. Yep. This is where they send a decion beam. Decion. Well, they want a decion. It's decion. How do you spell that? I have no idea. I spelled it D-E-C-I-O-N. I don't think that's how it's spelled. Decion beam.
00:58:22
Speaker
Oh, they realized to make it bigger, they knew Dickey on beam, but it's too far away, so they kind of sent a shuttle. Tom was like, I'm the best pilot ever to take me. And Jane was like, but you don't know enough about time travels. I'm taking a lot. Maybe not time travel, but temporal mechanics. Is there room 72 in one of those shuttles? There is, but that would interfere with the engineering amounts. Yeah.
00:58:50
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe in the later episodes they have the game more shuttles. I don't know. Maybe that first shuttle was only a two man one. True. That's true, Jane. I'm just guessing. Yeah. So then Janeway and Belanna shuttle. Belanna actually apologizes for losing a temper. Well, maybe that's part of the reason Janeway is like, well, actually she's capable of, um, yeah, she has her output, but she's capable of self reflection and, um, sort of.
00:59:20
Speaker
or at the very least job-specific manoeuvring. I don't think she's capable of that. Julie, how could you say such a thing? You have me here to be the lady and I'm just saying what could be asked.
00:59:38
Speaker
Um, but I thought it was, well, it was, I mean, it's just a TV episode, but it does that show growth because remember when Shikote asked her to apologize to Kerry, she's like, no ways. You know, like she can't think of anything. The only thing I regret is not hitting him harder. Yeah. So now she apologizes and she's, I think she says something like, I'm not off of some material. And that's why she, she left Starfleet. She thought she couldn't cut it.
01:00:02
Speaker
And then Janeway reveals that actually a lot of people are softly thought she was very good and she had support and she didn't know that, which I guess is another indication of her character like being so independent and thinking she has to achieve everything on her own without anyone else's help. I mean, maybe now I'm reaching, but I think that shows some backstory. Yes. And then I did like Janeway's line here. Some professors like students who challenge their assumptions, Balana, and so do some captains.
01:00:29
Speaker
Yeah, I love that line. Yeah, just confrontational and asking questions and things, but that's what you want only, isn't it? Especially if, I don't know, if you're in a leadership position, especially if you're one
01:00:51
Speaker
in Janeway's position where she's potentially going to have to be remaining in that position for 75 years. She's going to need people to challenge her leadership because otherwise she's going to turn into a dictator without realizing it. And not come up with the best, you know, one person cannot come up with the best solutions for every problem that they encounter. So they're approaching the rift and they initiate the Deccion theme, need to widen it by 70%, but they only get to 65%. Punch it through.
01:01:22
Speaker
Nearly Jamie, nearly. We know what Jamie's favorite line is. Yeah. So they get to 120 meters in diameter, which is less than two meters clearance on the other side, which I think is really fun detail to know because you're like, oh, got a really squeeze in this big, I mean, that feels like a big challenge. Yeah. What are the dimensions of Voyager? Like how long and how wide? Do you want to Google that quickly? I don't know. Oh, hang on. I feel like I want to find this out. Yeah.
01:01:52
Speaker
And while you're doing that, because I don't think it was, I mean, it was still fine, but so then they got a return, return the shuttle, return to Voyager. But then when they're returning, they had to decide which Voyager to dock at because they obviously can see the reflection on the original. So that's an extra, extra puzzle.
01:02:15
Speaker
I found that in its dimensions, by the way. Yeah. So it is 343 metres long and 116 metres wide. OK. So that's two metres is not a lot of clearance either way. What were you going to say, Jenny? I was going to say, I feel like there's a strong theme in which I absolutely love, which is in that shuttle when they're deciding about which forager to go for and also in the end scene as well.
01:02:44
Speaker
between Carrie and Bolana, which is touches on red, what you mentioned in our first podcast about how you imagine this is the universe, the real universe, when you're a teenager that grownups lived in, where you were able to just, you know, have a disagreement, state what you thought and why, and then listen to the other person's decision was made, and you went with it. And there was no there's no attitude, there was no tantrum, it was just adult behavior. And the same thing happens between
01:03:17
Speaker
She asked for his support. She says, I'm going to need your support in this leadership role. And he says, you know, you'll always have my best, effectively. And I just thought, yeah, that must be what it's like when you leave high school. Yeah, I thought the world that we were was. I thought that was going to be the university and I was very disappointed in that respect. Yeah, I cannot explain to you the disappointment I felt when I was already watching in 2019. And a lot of stuff was also happening, like,
01:03:41
Speaker
Black Lives Matter, the Need To movement, or like all of, I mean. COVID. I'm not COVID yet, but I was like, oh yeah, not COVID. Okay, sorry, but a lot of stuff to take care of. 2020, yeah. And I was like, ah, this is not, I was, I, when I realised the world had not turned out as I'd expected. The future had not materialised the way I'd expected. Very disappointing. Although I must say, I did, I, I,
01:04:11
Speaker
personal experience was that there was a bit it was a bit more like the university but then it sort of went backwards because in the workplace it was more like yeah yes because actually people are just political creatures or or selfish creatures I'm not sure what the term is but um so but yes they may have this kind of detailed they have to like rationalize which shipped but luckily they picked the right one but in a time has taken them to get back
01:04:37
Speaker
The rupture has narrowed to 110 meters. And Jamie, as you just told us, the ship was 116 meters wide. So what does Janeway say? She tells us that she actually learned that maneuvering a starship was supposed to be about delicacy. But she's tearing up that rule book and that sometimes you just have to punch your way through. Exactly. And I prefer the first half of that quote to the last half, just to confound expectations of which my favorite quote might be.
01:05:07
Speaker
Yeah, so they make it through, and I think there's some cocky comment from Tom, which I don't remember. I just literally have on my notes, cocky comment from Tom. He's like, oh, I'm going to remember that punching through or something. I'm going to remember that line. Yes. Then to wrap up, we're in engineering, and I guess Belonna has been made chief engineer. And she says, I'll try not to bake.
01:05:34
Speaker
I'll try and not break any of their noses looking higher. And yeah, they have a nice scene with Carrie where they kind of let bygones and kind of have a first start. And then we find out, I guess, then we see Chikote and Jamie talking and the only detail that I wrote here, I don't remember. I watched this like just a few hours ago. Why didn't I remember?
01:06:04
Speaker
that they really had two complaints about her promotion. Which I thought was like, which is an interesting little side note. So there's obviously like a formal kind of complaints mechanism, and not everyone's happy, but... We never meet the HR officer. Yeah, but HR took those complaints. HR did what HR do, which is make those things disappear. Surely Janeway doesn't receive the complaints herself. No, I hope not.
01:06:31
Speaker
Well, I mean, but I like the fact they're about the fact she's been promoted, as opposed to anything she does when she's actually the chief of engineering, because that suggests that people don't have a leg to stand on actually, and their criticisms of what she actually does. It's just how dare they recruit a marquee above me. Yeah, I think that is the case. I like to think that the complaints with us to do with the fact she's a marquee and more to do with that, you know,
01:07:01
Speaker
it wasn't the appropriate order of things because Carrie was next in line. Otherwise, I could have been. I mean, not because she's a marquee, but rather because that experience is not the expected experience of a Starfleet officer, I think.
01:07:18
Speaker
You know, not because she's, well, I don't know. Obviously it did not read those complaints myself. I'm really glad to hear that. Confidentiality means confidentiality. I'm the HR. Twist. Maybe it was Aldous Carrie's friends and they felt like they had to stick by him. Yeah. Yeah. Say that again, Jenny. Maybe it was Carrie's friends, like his two best mates, that they felt they had to stick by him and
01:07:46
Speaker
You know, he was being far too good, accepting Bolana was being promoted above him. Also very possible. I'd like to think the best of the whole crew. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. I'm sure she has some redemptive qualities. No. I'm kidding.
01:08:08
Speaker
Then there's another transmission from the doctor. He's still shrinking. Shame. This little like B story or C story going on in the background. This doctor's just getting smaller and smaller and smaller. So Tom goes to sickbay. Or the final scene is Tom in sickbay. And he's pretty rude. But again, I'd say it's this dynamic between the Tom and doctor. But do you remember the line there, Jamie? Because you like have a photographic memory. Oh God. Um, no.
01:08:37
Speaker
I think it's something like, oh, when Tom is looking at the tail, doctors are sitting off standing on the chair. He's like, Oh, I like you better that way. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's also a bit of a humor and pointing. The doctor at that stage could be described as Ickle with 85% accuracy, confidence. Yeah, Ickle, I learned something new.
01:09:05
Speaker
Because people are using the word ik a lot recently on Twitter. And I find myself hating all contractions for words that are just being repurposed. But I think that's just my age. I'm not that age. Is ik a contraction? I always thought it was just like the sound you make. Yeah, I don't think that's actually a contraction. But like some I realized during the World Cup, people were saying pen for penalty.
01:09:30
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, what are you talking about? Like, why would you do that? Because it's a meeting of pen from if you don't know the word penalty, because there's so many like, anyway, I was very. It's not very common in football, actually. Very chic. I only saw it recently, but you can't you can't contract something.
01:09:52
Speaker
if the thing you contract it to is a word in itself that means something completely different. Yes. Just going to confuse everyone, surely. Well, maybe we are both at that age. Is this one of those disappointments with life that came when you realized you weren't in Star Trek universe? No, I wouldn't say, I mean, Renault for renovation, I find annoying, but I can just derive what it means. Pen for penalty. I have strong feelings about this.
01:10:22
Speaker
But before we, I think... I mean, people could be talking about that town in California or in the United States, Reno, as opposed to renovations. I'm just saying, overall, I'm against the movement. Overall, I'm against the movement, but I can be less annoyed about some than others. That's all. Did you, were there any big themes, Jenny, that you wanted to talk about or things that came up? Well, yes, you see, because I made notes of
01:10:51
Speaker
Well, one of the things I loved was the fact that there are so many themes and they sort of interweave amongst the whole episode and then they come back to them in later episodes. So they're like precursors. So you've got the whole like, you know, AI and how should we treat it? And when it becomes, will it become sentient? And will it become a person? Should we call it it or should we allow it freedom? And then they freedom to shut itself down or?
01:11:15
Speaker
you know, all that all that kind of thing becomes like a big deal. And that's kind of running in like a minor backstory in this one. And then you've got the whole like, you know, leadership qualities and what does it take to be a leader? How should leaders be selected based based on their knowledge or, you know, what qualities are needed, the whole like fair competition thing running throughout, you know, the scene between Carrie and Belona at the end and
01:11:39
Speaker
And then of course the whole like marquee versus Starfleet, which is really running strong in the first season. And then I love that like, way later, I think it must be like many seasons later, they kind of revisited a bit when there's this, we'll get to it, but there's this episode where they discover someone created a holographic program of what would happen if the marquee
01:12:07
Speaker
rebelled and tried to take over the ship. Oh, yes. They, they, I won't say who it is, but they created it as a training program in case it really happened. Because that really was a threat in the early days. I reckon it was Kes. Well, I obviously- She strikes him as the sort of person who's worried about losing her new hopes. Sorry, Carrie. In preparation for this podcast, we watched the episode and then I also listened to the corresponding episode of the Delta Fliers. Because that is my favourite Star Trek podcast. I've listened to lots of others, but that's one thing.
01:12:36
Speaker
But I don't always agree with their point of view, but I do learn a lot and I do really like the podcast. But the one comment from the one guy was that he thought there was too much conflict in this episode between the marquee and the Starfleet. And I was like, I disagree because they wouldn't just instantly all become friends overnight. After one episode, you kind of need to believe that they find a way to collaborate and integrate. Especially not after 2Vox sold them all out.
01:13:06
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, because I mean, there's all this conflict when you put teams together who don't have a reason to dislike each other. And these two were literally enemies. Yeah. One was like trying to capture and imprison the other one. So I agree with the idea that there wouldn't be conflicts that needed to time and to be worked through would be unrealistic to me. So I like that that's in there. I'm glad that it
01:13:35
Speaker
disappears because I think if it's seen throughout all how many seasons it would start to you know take its toll a bit. Yeah it's a good start and I guess it provides story for the first I don't remember obviously but like maybe first half of the first series but then obviously branch out and just explore those other themes that you describe and so many so many others. Just seeing if there were any others that jumped out on me you know that was that was the main ones but I just love that I love that it
01:14:03
Speaker
has all those different things running through. Yeah, I mean, I feel, again, like it's, overall, I took Star Trek Voyager as like the life class when I was a teenager. Then when I rewatched it as an adult, like then more interpreting or noticing the themes or, and then realizing what's what science fiction is, is like exploring human problems, but at a distance that you can say things and get away with things you can't when you
01:14:32
Speaker
tell the story directly, or you're exploring things that haven't happened yet, like the AI stuff. And for example, like, I mean, I think I've said to you before, but and it's about Deep Space Nine, but I never really got war. I just like don't understand. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But watching Deep Space Nine helped like clarify, okay, invasion, okay, settlers, okay. I mean, not all wars, but
01:15:00
Speaker
made things much more concrete and then there they obviously cover like war crimes and sympathizers and all this kind of thing. Yeah and it helps understand like maybe you can't sort of work out war to start with but why because there's been wars in the past it just keeps on going and going yeah because there's always people who've been had their home taken away from them and there's people who would feel like their home is being
01:15:28
Speaker
taken from them if they would be pushed out for the people whose home it originally was, etc. Yeah, exactly. It just made those things much more concrete for me. I mean, maybe that's because I haven't
01:15:39
Speaker
a brain that's not very smart. But to end, I did try to find... Because you're an idealist, Red, like me. And your stance is, why? Why war at all? Why are we organizing these rules and stuff so that we can have wars? Let's just abolish the wars. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, I also feel a little bit like I'm not very nationalistic, because I'm like, why do we have these randomly drawn lines, which we call a country, when like,
01:16:04
Speaker
Yeah, they are random. I mean, yeah, I mean, I like the whole diversity in different traditions and cultures. It's good. But yeah, so why would you have one? Why don't the people in charge of after the people in this country? Anyway, that's the whole question. But instead of a did you know, I had a joke because I realized when I was listening to the podcast, and Jamie might have to stay in this one too. That
01:16:29
Speaker
Paris gets promoted to lieutenant at the end of The Caretaker. You know, I think one of the final scenes is his promotion. And Harry Kim never gets promoted. He's like an ensign for the whole series. And that is kind of like a Star Trek joke, running joke, whatever. But then I saw this joke on Twitter, which was, what did Harry, wait, so let me just make sure I've got the whole thing here. What did Harry Kim say after his promotion?
01:16:59
Speaker
computer and program.
01:17:02
Speaker
Oh, so mean. So mean. It's a good joke. Is Ensign like an entry level officer rank? Because he was on the senior command staff, wasn't he? Yeah, but he doesn't actually, he's very senior in terms of what he has to do, but his actual rank is Ensign for some reason the whole time.
Career Progression in Star Trek
01:17:23
Speaker
Did you know though, I hate to put this out, but it's only because I agree with Red and I'm like, why? Why? But there is an episode where, um,
01:17:31
Speaker
He actually, like way later, where he says to Janeway, look, I appreciate that in the back, in the real Star Trek world, you know, I would have been progressing and I would have moved on and I appreciate that there isn't actually possible here because we're stuck all together on the ship and you're always going to need people to do the entry level roles. So no, so people can't really be constantly promoted because there'll be no one from the bottom to fill. And he says that too. And then he says, however, I'd like to take on more responsibility. And then there's this whole sort of, um,
01:18:01
Speaker
thing where he takes on more responsibility, basically. I think she leaves him in charge of the ship for a day or something. Oh yeah, he definitely has Knight Command, from what I remember, on the bridge. Yeah, you remember, you and Jamie have like photographic memories.
Rewatching TV Shows for Podcasting
01:18:17
Speaker
Well, no, only because the things you mentioned, I had the same thoughts about them, like, oh, we wonder why that, and then, so then if you get the answer in a later episode, it stays in my memory for some reason.
01:18:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. Maybe I watched too much of our TV as well. Or I just watched it way too much. Yeah, I'm happy to be rewatching. I had to go like two years without rewatching because I was waiting to start a podcast. Do you know what I found really hard is to watch one episode and then wait to do the podcast because I don't want to watch the next one and get confused. Yes. Okay. Yes. Good point.
01:18:58
Speaker
Okay.
Ending with a Humorous Flatmate Exchange
01:18:59
Speaker
Well, on that note, I think I have to cook because I have to make some dinner or eat some dinner or help with dinner. I do need to make food. Actually, I think my flatmate, when I asked soy meat, I was like, what do you want for dinner? And he had gone out to the grocery store. So I probably don't have to cook anything. So Handsome Guillaume is making you food. Oh my gosh. I told you I'm not editing this podcast. Yeah, but you stopped recording, haven't you? No, but I will stop now and edit.