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You Can Call Me, Atheist
41 Plays27 days ago
Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen Podcast. This episode is part 1 of our 2 part Spirituality and Religion series. This week, we dive into the question: Can I be a spiritual atheist? Join us as we explore the intersection of spirituality and atheism, sharing our personal spiritual and religious journeys. We unpack the key differences between spirituality and organized religion and examine whether one can exist without the other.
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
https://matthewkingphd.com/spiritual-atheism-guide
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
Introduction to Spirituality vs. Religion
00:00:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
According to Matthew King, spirituality, as opposed to religion, is rooted in the notion that there is an immaterial reality, energy, for example, that we experience due to our existence or being.
00:00:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Spirituality is not a belief in physical beings like gods or goddesses, but a state of being in connection with something larger than oneself, both imminently and transcendentally.
00:00:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Today, we cover spirituality in this week's episode of You Can Call Me Karen.
00:01:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Welcome, ladies. Hi.
00:01:11
Manni
Greetings, Earthlings.
00:01:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hey, Steph.
00:01:20
Manni
i can't graing
00:01:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah For those who cannot see us, we are doing the Mork and Mindy?
00:01:25
Manni
I can only do it with one hand.
00:01:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, that's... Steph, you're muted, honey.
00:01:35
Manni
Whoopsie.
00:01:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
What is it? Star Trek?
00:01:37
Steph
it It's Star Trek.
00:01:38
Manni
Yes, I'll check.
00:01:39
Steph
and And it's funny because I never remember to you
00:01:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Don't you do it this way?
00:01:44
Steph
You do do it this way. I never remember to mute. And then I did this time for the music.
00:01:47
Manni
the
00:01:49
Steph
And then I actually,
00:01:51
Manni
Stayed muted.
00:01:53
Steph
I, yeah, I never do.
00:01:54
Manni
Can you guys do that with two hands or just one?
00:01:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Sure can.
00:01:58
Steph
That was my left hand, yo.
00:02:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i can. Yeah, I got them both.
00:02:02
Manni
I can't do it with my right hand.
Open-mindedness and Divisiveness in Spirituality Discussion
00:02:04
Manni
So what does that say about me?
00:02:04
Steph
Really? you're right-handed.
00:02:06
Manni
I know. I'd look at this as my right hand.
00:02:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay, everybody get out to YouTube. You got a witness.
00:02:13
Steph
Because this girl...
00:02:16
Manni
This is where my planet, this is how we greet one another.
00:02:23
Steph
That's funny.
00:02:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All right. Before we get to something that's a little bit more structured than what just happened there, um we we are going to talk this week about spirituality.
'Karen' of the Week: The Story of Quinn
00:02:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And so I needed a little disclaimer up front because I know that first um for many, this can be a very divisive topic. So Just want to ask that our listeners stick with us, come with an open mind.
00:02:48
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:02:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We are going to do the same as we talk about um our like spiritual and religious journeys and you know how we've thought about this over the course of our lifetime.
00:02:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so we really want to just have an inclusive discussion on the topic and we will be respectful to all religions and beliefs, et cetera. So just wanted to kind of set that up front before, um you know, we we dive in.
00:03:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And then before we dive in, let's talk a little bit about um some Karens for the week.
00:03:15
Manni
and from
00:03:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So ladies this week, who are you calling Karen?
00:03:23
Manni
We're doing a lot of diving in.
00:03:23
Steph
Hi. We're diving.
00:03:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Diving in. Right now we're like um belly flopping and then we'll we'll dive later.
00:03:29
Manni
Oh, ouchie. Oh, sure.
00:03:33
Steph
Wait, can I go first?
00:03:35
Manni
Oh.
00:03:36
Steph
I'd like to go first because my Karen story not, it's not, a I don't know that you guys would agree that this isn't Karen.
00:03:45
Manni
oh
00:03:45
Steph
Karen.
00:03:46
Manni
Oh, okay.
00:03:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Great.
00:03:48
Steph
Yeah.
00:03:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Controversial.
00:03:48
Steph
time
00:03:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I like it.
00:03:49
Steph
It's a, yeah. So my Karen's for the week is my um very almost, as in like a month from now, three-year-old child Quinn.
00:04:04
Steph
She's my Karen.
00:04:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I like this already.
00:04:06
Steph
I love her.
00:04:07
Manni
Not that sweet angel.
00:04:09
Steph
this This sweet angel, we started potty training her yesterday.
00:04:14
Manni
oh
00:04:15
Steph
And this child has, okay, strong willed.
00:04:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
She's strong-willed.
00:04:22
Steph
She, I feel like in these last couple of weeks has like been intentionally gaslighting us. Like it's like an intentional, I feel like she looks me in my eyes and says, can I have this?
00:04:29
Manni
Yeah.
00:04:37
Steph
And I'll be like, yes, of course. And I hand it to her and she says, I don't want this.
00:04:44
Steph
Or can you sit on the potty? No, I don't want to sit on the potty. I need to sit on the potty in the same breath.
00:04:56
Steph
And i just feel like she, I don't know if this is necessarily Karen because like, you know, she's not getting in my business, but this, her livelihood is my business and she's making it very difficult.
00:05:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Her livelihood is my business.
00:05:14
Steph
It's my business. And she's making it so hard.
00:05:19
Manni
Not the gaslighting though.
00:05:19
Steph
And she is gaslighting. it's it's
00:05:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I know exactly that behavior.
00:05:24
Steph
She's gaslighting.
00:05:26
Manni
Same.
00:05:26
Steph
And like it's so funny because like she it's like a switch flips. And she's like, I'm listening. like Because she knows that she's not.
00:05:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:05:35
Steph
And I'm like, but you're not really listening. I love you. But you're not listening.
00:05:39
Manni
Right.
00:05:42
Steph
And so... Yeah.
00:05:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
if it's any consolation, i have a nearly seven-year-old and we are still doing that.
00:05:45
Steph
But any tips? Okay.
00:05:51
Manni
Oh my God.
00:05:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We are still being gaslit every day by that child.
00:05:57
Manni
Maxwell is almost seven.
00:05:58
Steph
Actually, that doesn't make me feel better because...
00:05:59
Manni
That's wild. Yeah.
00:06:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, it was sarcastic.
00:06:01
Manni
Yeah.
00:06:03
Steph
Okay. Yeah. Because I'm like, i i don't I don't know how much... like I can't live like this.
00:06:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:06:10
Steph
It's like, I'm like living in an alternate universe where up means down and down means...
00:06:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Yep.
00:06:15
Steph
You know.
00:06:15
Manni
Yep.
00:06:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I
Parenting Challenges and Reflections
00:06:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
think we just have Stockholm syndrome at this point.
00:06:18
Steph
Okay. Okay. Well, anyway, i feel, i like i like, again, i just have to keep reminding myself that I do love her, but I but i want, I don't like her right now.
00:06:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But you don't like her right now? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:06:36
Manni
Oh my gosh. This is reminding me of like, I told you guys several years ago, When Brielle turned six or seven, I was like, I'm just starting to like her again.
00:06:45
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:06:48
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:06:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:06:50
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:06:50
Manni
Remember?
00:06:51
Steph
Yeah, you did say that.
00:06:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:06:51
Manni
And you guys were like, huh?
00:06:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:06:54
Manni
was like, yeah, you didn't have kids yet.
00:06:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We didn't have kids yet. Mm-hmm.
00:06:56
Steph
Yeah.
00:06:57
Manni
And I was like, I'm telling you, there's something that happened between when she turned three and now, and it was not pretty.
00:06:58
Steph
um Mm-hmm.
00:07:03
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:07:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:07:06
Steph
It's not pretty.
00:07:08
Manni
And maybe it's because they're Karen's.
00:07:08
Steph
And how do I get this?
00:07:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
For us, it was, it was like four, it was just after four. It was like when he started pre-K, he went from angel to demon.
00:07:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:07:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, this is a great, this is a great analogy considering today's topic.
00:07:21
Steph
Oh, we don't
00:07:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah And um yeah, and he just came out of it. Like, I think, I don't know. It's been a minute, but, um but he's, he's fantastic now. He does still gaslight the shit out of us, but.
00:07:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think that's just having a child, honestly.
00:07:36
Manni
Yeah, you I think so too.
00:07:40
Steph
Yeah. Lately, I'll be like, um, hey, you don't wanna smack that thing, it'll break, so no thank you. I would say no thank you. Now she responds with, I'm not no thank you.
00:07:54
Steph
and so now I have to explain, I'm not calling you no thank you. I'm saying no, and I'm thanking you for stopping the behavior.
00:08:04
Steph
I'm not no thank you. Okay.
00:08:08
Manni
Oh my gosh. I think the hardest part about all this is like, you know, you want her to kind of keep that part of her. Right.
00:08:16
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:08:16
Manni
So like, how do you correct this goes back to our parenting episode, you know, like, how do you correct without taking away like that?
00:08:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:08:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:08:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
that fire mm-hmm
00:08:23
Manni
Like, Yeah, because when she's not, when she is in like, I don't want to say like potential danger, but when she is in a situation where she does have to stand up for herself, you want her to be able to stand up for herself.
00:08:25
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:08:33
Steph
Yeah. Yeah.
00:08:36
Manni
So it's like, how do you teach and correct without taking away that like power from from them?
00:08:36
Steph
Yeah. yeah Mm-hmm.
00:08:42
Steph
I'm like, I hear you,
Personal Experience with Racial Profiling
00:08:45
Manni
Yeah, I hear you. Also, in the spirit of today's episode, when's Quinn's birthday?
00:08:45
Steph
but still, no.
00:08:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:08:51
Manni
Or maybe it's tomorrow, next week's episode.
00:08:51
Steph
April 28th.
00:08:54
Manni
When is it?
00:08:54
Steph
It's April 28th.
00:08:56
Manni
April 28th, are her and Maxwell on the same sign?
00:08:57
Steph
So.
00:09:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, he would be, yeah, he's May 5th.
00:09:01
Steph
Taurus.
00:09:03
Manni
Yeah.
00:09:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Honestly, I have never even thought about his sign until you said that.
00:09:07
Manni
Yeah,
00:09:08
Steph
Ooh.
00:09:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That's a little teaser.
00:09:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:09:11
Manni
yes yeah these maybe that's the that's the similarity there.
00:09:11
Steph
Ooh, that just got me excited. yeah she's a Taurus. The bull.
00:09:22
Steph
oh Interesting.
00:09:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:09:23
Manni
um Um, I don't, yeah.
00:09:23
Steph
Okay.
00:09:25
Manni
Cause, uh, yeah, I, I can't think of a time I've been gaslit by my kids recently, but I know what's happened in their toddlerhood for sure.
00:09:31
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:09:34
Manni
Um, okay. So my Karen is, uh, it's actually another Chad. Um, and this goes back to
00:09:41
Steph
Thank
00:09:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ooh. woo
00:09:47
Manni
A few months ago, maybe like the beginning of the um school year when I was looking for properties of where I was going to be um establishing my business, I was waiting for my real estate agent to show me a place in this affluent community. That's the community next door to where we live.
00:10:07
Manni
And I'm. This man was going into a bagel shop when I was like standing there waiting to get into the space. And um I was still standing there when he came out um because my real estate agent is ah also black.
00:10:25
Manni
So we were on CP time, I'm guessing.
00:10:26
Steph
should
00:10:28
Manni
Yeah.
00:10:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You were holding a straight face and i was like, please say it.
00:10:32
Steph
ah
00:10:37
Manni
And so while I'm sitting there, standing there waiting, the guy who looked at it, I could tell the look when he first saw me waiting when he was going in
00:10:46
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:10:49
Manni
So I was waiting for this or expecting this behavior from him.
00:10:54
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:10:55
Manni
When he came out, he said,
Spiritual Journeys and Organized Religion
00:10:58
Manni
are you looking for the, are you waiting for the bus?
00:11:03
Manni
Yeah.
00:11:06
Manni
I said, no, I'm waiting to get in here to buy this property.
00:11:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Good for you. know Good for you.
00:11:14
Manni
But like, are you waiting for the best?
00:11:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Is there a bus there? Is there a bus there?
00:11:18
Manni
Exactly.
00:11:18
Steph
I know.
00:11:19
Manni
lee
00:11:20
Steph
I know.
00:11:21
Manni
Exactly. There's one, right?
00:11:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like... Sorry.
00:11:26
Manni
No, go for it.
00:11:26
Steph
I would have been like, do you see bus stop?
00:11:28
Manni
Go for it. Say it.
00:11:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well...
00:11:31
Steph
That's what would have popped out of my mouth.
00:11:32
Manni
Yeah.
00:11:33
Steph
Do you see a bus stop here?
00:11:35
Manni
Yeah.
00:11:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah
00:11:39
Manni
Yeah. So that shows you the only people who he recognizes in his community um who are of people who have melanin inside of them wait for the bus and are the help.
00:11:55
Steph
Oh no.
00:11:57
Manni
And he could not understand the fact that somebody would be existing in his space who was not
00:12:05
Steph
a
00:12:09
Manni
help
00:12:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i
00:12:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um i i take it to an even darker place because like, why?
00:12:18
Steph
don't no
00:12:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i know. but yeah But like, why would you even say anything unless you felt like this person didn't belong in your space?
00:12:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so he was like, I feel like he was like, like you need to get on your bus and be gone because you can't be here.
00:12:31
Manni
Right.
00:12:37
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:12:38
Manni
Right.
00:12:38
Steph
you and
00:12:40
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:12:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Which ah maybe is the same place you took it. But like, what were you doing that was so threatening to him just existing?
00:12:45
Manni
Yeah.
00:12:49
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:12:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You were just being there.
00:12:50
Manni
Yep.
00:12:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Which...
00:12:52
Manni
Exactly.
00:12:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm sorry.
00:12:55
Manni
Right. And I do want to remind our listeners, this was September of 2024.
00:12:57
Steph
That's annoying.
00:13:02
Manni
So when we are talking about progress and if progress has been made, right?
00:13:02
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:08
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:13:09
Manni
Right.
00:13:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:13:10
Manni
This is what, this these are the interactions that we are talking about of why in our reality, progress has not been made.
00:13:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
right and i have never in my life been asked if i was waiting for bus or if i belonged in a certain place or not so i mean yeah i think we can all think of our own circumstances and whether that jives or not geez chad chad i hope you're listening
00:13:21
Manni
No, so.
00:13:24
Steph
but
00:13:25
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:13:32
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:13:37
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:13:40
Manni
Yeah.
00:13:44
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:13:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
He's not. He's not.
00:13:46
Manni
I'm going to go on a whim here and say, I'm going to take a deep dive and say, Chad is not listening to You Can Call Me, Karen.
00:13:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
He may have found this podcast based on the name, listened to one episode and realized he was tricked.
00:13:59
Steph
The same for me.
00:14:04
Steph
who
00:14:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
00:14:04
Manni
gosh.
00:14:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
On that note, those are your Karens for the week.
00:14:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All right. So this week um and next, we are going to be talking about spirituality. And as my lovely co-hosts know, this is the topic I know the most about.
00:14:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, no, not at all, actually.
00:14:35
Steph
the
00:14:36
Manni
More sarcasm.
00:14:37
Steph
vi
00:14:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, sarcasm is kind of my thing. So in all seriousness, spirituality can mean different things to different people. So um we thought it would be nice to have just like an open conversation on how we all think of our own spirituality um and how it can be like a ah pretty divisive topic. And so we want to bring people in and, you know, just kind of share different experiences.
00:15:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um This, as I mentioned, is part of ah two-part series on spirituality. So for this week, we're going to start off by just us having a conversation on our own ah spiritual journey in our lifetimes.
00:15:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And then next week, we're going to dive in with ah with a guest into a little bit more of like where we are today. um
00:15:24
Manni
Can I ask a question real quick for you guys?
00:15:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You may.
00:15:28
Manni
Do you think that spirituality is divisive or religion?
00:15:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, well, religion for sure.
00:15:38
Steph
religion
00:15:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, sorry.
00:15:39
Manni
yeah
00:15:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And end of discussion. Thank you for your question.
00:15:42
Manni
Yeah.
00:15:42
Steph
and thank you for coming in wow that was a really early short episode
00:15:44
Manni
That's it. That's all I was wondering.
00:15:48
Manni
See you next week, Karens.
00:15:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Just solved all the problems.
00:15:53
Manni
yeah
00:15:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Yes, definitely.
00:15:54
Manni
Okay.
00:15:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I would say organized religion. And it's because I think it's because of the rules that organized religion um creates and like the bounds that it sets and the the right and the wrong, if you will.
00:16:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so. It comes, i think it comes from a good place, what what ultimately becomes divisiveness, because people are like, if you do it this way, you will get to whatever, you know, the end goal is, depending on your religion. And so like, people think they're trying to help, I think.
00:16:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I don't know. that's what i'm That's what I'm sticking with.
00:16:35
Manni
I like it. Steph, what do you think?
00:16:39
Steph
um Definitely organized religion. You know what i like? I feel like religion and um i think about like politics ah in the United States. Right. And we have the Republicans and we have the Democrats and both seem to want to.
00:17:01
Steph
United States to be successful. They just believe vehemently that their way to the successes of the country is the only way and the best way and the right way.
00:17:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
me
00:17:11
Steph
And I think about that with religion, like, you know, at the end of the day, it's talking about like forever um peace or with God or connection to God.
00:17:11
Manni
Yeah.
00:17:22
Steph
And these are, this is the only correct path to God. And every religion has their belief that theirs that is the only way.
00:17:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think that's a really great comparison.
00:17:32
Manni
you know
00:17:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like
00:17:35
Manni
yeah
00:17:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's like you're convicted in something you believe so strongly about and you think it's for the better of everybody.
00:17:44
Steph
the
00:17:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so it's really hard to have both sides coexist
00:17:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um without conflict. And like, gosh, we can see that through the course of human history, the conflict that ah really but organized religion can cause.
00:18:02
Steph
Like bloodshed.
00:18:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:18:04
Manni
Yeah. um
00:18:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. I mean, that we have a whole set of holy wars that were...
00:18:06
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:08
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Good news is I didn't do any research on the history of religion for this episode, so I will spare everyone that.
00:18:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:13
Manni
Yeah.
00:18:16
Steph
yeah
00:18:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Usually that's my go-to of like whatever the topic is history of.
00:18:19
Steph
me
00:18:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So we're going to try to keep it a little lighter today, even though we started off pretty deep there.
00:18:21
Manni
yeah
00:18:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But what I would like to do actually is
00:18:25
Manni
yeah
00:18:25
Steph
okay
00:18:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um We yeah like have each of us this week discuss just how like our journey with either religion or spirituality over the course of our lifetime, because I think that will set us up for a good discussion next week as well.
Religious Studies and Spiritual Evolution
00:18:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
00:18:43
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And happy to you know like have you all interject as I go through mine um and vice versa, but I can get us kicked off. um So as I mentioned, not exactly the most knowledgeable about religion and spirituality. I grew up going to a Unitarian Universalist church, which might be a little bit foreign to some of our listeners. It's technically, it was founded or it's like part of Christianity somewhere um along the lines, but um I like to call it...
00:19:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I hope this isn't offensive to people, but it's in the church that I went to growing up. We're like a bunch of, um, grownup hippies kind of like it's, you know, very in tune with your spirituality, ah kind of, um,
00:19:26
Steph
Amen.
00:19:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah open for everyone, right? Like the whole premise is you can believe what you want to believe. It's a place of worship and you can do it in a way that feels right to you. When I was, the the specific church that I grew up in was in ah the suburbs of Illinois or the suburbs of Chicago here.
00:19:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And what their structure was, was adults would go to the mass or the service, whatever it was called, not mass. um And then the kids would go to religious education based on like your age group.
00:20:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And in each week, we would learn about like different religions or different types of spirituality and what other people worshiped and believed and stuff like that. And so I always joked over the years that like, because I was taught about all these different ways to practice spirituality, that it kind of made me an atheist because I was like, well, who am I to pick which one is right?
00:20:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You know, like they all seem nice and good.
00:20:30
Manni
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:20:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um But I really struggled with the thought that like one would be right and one would be wrong. um And I do want to pause a moment on the word atheist because I do feel like a lot of people recoil at that word.
00:20:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like it's, it has such a negative connotation. um But the reality is it's, it's like, i I don't necessarily believe in ah ah God, but that also means I don't believe in like the opposite of God, like a devil, right? Like there is neither of those presences in my um in my kind of world, if you will.
00:21:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so i don't know. It feels like people hear atheist and assume you're like a devil worshiper, which is those things just work. Yeah.
00:21:22
Manni
Well, I think, I think what, what, um, sorry to interrupt, but I think who I just, in my experience and in my circles of like,
00:21:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
more
00:21:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:21:34
Manni
people with faith, I think this the recoil underneath all that is about control. So like if you if you don't believe it, control in an insecurity in their higher power. So if you don't believe that there's a God, then what does that say about the God that I believe in?
00:21:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and
00:21:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:21:52
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:21:53
Manni
And so I think it threatens their faith and their relationship with a higher power that you could believe that there's, that their God doesn't exist.
00:22:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
it just doesn't exist. Yeah.
00:22:05
Steph
and who
00:22:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I, there's this interview with Ricky Gervais, um,
00:22:09
Manni
Oh, I love that. I love that you said that. Yes.
00:22:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think was Stephen Colbert. But ah first of all, I know he can be a very divisive person, like his extreme um and very direct beliefs can be off-putting to people.
00:22:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But Ricky Gervais said something like, um I'm going to get the numbers wrong, there's like a thousand gods across you know all of the various worlds religions. And so if you are he was speaking to Stephen Colbert, if you're a Catholic, you believe in one thousand.
00:22:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And he's like, as an atheist, I just believe in one less. Like, i you know, you believe in one of a thousand, I believe in zero of a thousand.
00:22:50
Manni
Yeah.
00:22:50
Steph
I love
00:22:53
Manni
Right.
00:22:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I thought that was just so ah helpful to envision because it's like, well, you, you don't believe in 999.
00:22:54
Steph
that.
00:23:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
nine hundred and ninety nine So like, you know, we're not actually that far apart.
00:23:07
Manni
Yeah, I love that.
00:23:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
00:23:09
Steph
and love that
00:23:10
Manni
Yeah, that reminds me of something I was listening to the other day that talked about and it's similar to like the point that you guys.
00:23:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But.
00:23:18
Manni
well we're, we're, we're making before. um Maybe it's not, I don't know, but I'll just say it. um They were talking about how we create gods based off of like our environment and our circumstances.
00:23:32
Manni
And I guess I was thinking about this with like, with what you were saying about your upbringing and like they were like hippies, you know, um looking for a place to go.
00:23:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:23:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah Mm-hmm.
00:23:42
Manni
Right. Looking for a place of worship, looking for a place of belief. So they designed this Unitarian church based off of the need that they had in order to fill a wound in their heart.
00:23:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:23:54
Manni
Same with when we go to other countries like, you know, if we go to. uh, ancient country, not ancient countries, but if we go to countries that, you know, are in, um, that deal with a lot of drought, they believe in gods that have like, will bring water, will bring rain, you know, like, uh, in the black community, we needed a God that was going to help us build resiliency, you know?
00:24:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Bring rain. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:24:19
Manni
So it,
00:24:19
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:24:21
Manni
It all kind of depends on ah there's a lot that goes into why gods are created based off of climate, circumstances, um situations of the people who are um who are suffering.
00:24:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:24:36
Manni
And um i think that goes to, you know, the point that we started with of like, is religion divisive? Is spirituality divisive or is religion divisive? Because religion are created by the by people who need to have ah answer for their suffering.
00:24:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:24:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:24:53
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:24:53
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:24:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes. um Okay, we're done.
Impact of Family and Church on Spirituality
00:24:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah I just, that, yes, that really speaks to me. And um it reminded me of a class I took in college.
00:25:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So ah ah i i have always kind of identified as an atheist. I took this um religious studies class in college so that I could
00:25:16
Manni
Hmm.
00:25:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
have better vocabulary around religion when I felt like, you know, a lot of Americans are Christian, a lot of our friends are Christian, or Catholic, which I think are the same thing.
00:25:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We're like, you know, on the same umbrella, whatever. But
00:25:32
Manni
Yeah.
00:25:33
Steph
Thank
00:25:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I never really had a good vocabulary when things, you know, of a religious nature nature would come up. So I took this religious studies class, which was kind of just a big, like, um history of religion, you know.
00:25:46
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:25:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And what you were just describing is exactly the types of things that they covered in that class of just, you know, when we see the first – um ah call it organized religion, start to, um you know, start to arise in humanity.
00:26:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It comes like really early, like, you know, drawings, you know, that most the oldest drawings that they can find.
00:26:07
Manni
Yeah.
00:26:09
Manni
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:26:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it's all based on exactly that. it's It started as, you know, an explanation for the unexplainable. And over time, it's it's ah it seems, in my opinion, and this is where I think some of this can get a little divisive, so um hopefully this isn't offensive, but it it has ah become a way to control people, you know, and it's become a power um that can be abused if it's in the wrong hands and things like that. And so that's where, um yeah, that's where I begin to, I guess, struggle a bit with the organized religion concept.
00:26:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I will say though, that as I've gotten older, I've, And have spent more time trying to like understand myself a little bit more. I feel like I don't totally dismiss the idea of, um I'll say some kind of an energy, right?
00:27:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like that there is, in my mind, I'm very...
00:27:09
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:27:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i I like logic. I like science, you know, like that's how I comprehend things. And there is like a merging of science and spirituality at some point, I feel like where, I, it's probably close to Buddhism where it's like, we're all sort of connected.
00:27:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, oh my gosh, what am i thinking of? i We, we were just watching white Lotus, the third season.
00:27:39
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:27:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i don't know if you guys are into it.
00:27:40
Manni
Yes. Yeah, we're watching that.
00:27:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um,
00:27:42
Manni
We just, we're all caught up.
00:27:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay, so there there's like the, um I think it's a Buddhist group, and the monk explained
00:27:45
Manni
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:27:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um life as like, if you think of water, I'm going to get this kind of wrong, but the way he did it was so brilliant. And it's like, when you're born, it's like a droplet kind of separating from the
00:28:05
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:28:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
body of water and that droplet has like a journey and you're you're independent and you have your own consciousness and then the returning ah death is like the returning of that droplet to the body of water and so it's like a happy return or something he's he said and i was like
00:28:10
Manni
Right? Yeah.
00:28:23
Steph
Mm. Mm.
00:28:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah Yes, that's like exactly, you know, the water is the energy. Anyways, so that I felt like it was a nice way to, I don't know how I just made the parallel to White Lotus, everything else about that show.
00:28:33
Manni
yeah
00:28:41
Manni
Yeah. You were talking about Buddhism and yeah.
00:28:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah But in any, in any case, I think that's where I'm at in my life now. I'm looking forward to our conversation next week because I think it's an opportunity to just explore spirituality a little bit more, but um I will stop there and pass it over to whoever wants to go first to share a bit about your journey over your
Life Experiences Shaping Faith
00:29:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
lifetime as well. And then we can pick that apart too.
00:29:10
Steph
I can go.
00:29:11
Manni
but is this therapy or you can call me Karen?
00:29:12
Steph
So parents...
00:29:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Yes.
00:29:14
Steph
Yay. Okay.
00:29:17
Steph
Okay. um so my parents
00:29:21
Manni
Sorry, wait, just to clarify, we're just talking about like growing up and first, and then we'll talk about where we are now.
00:29:24
Steph
yeah
00:29:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I would cover the whole gamut. Give it to us all. Give it all to us. You know what I'm saying?
00:29:38
Steph
um okay
00:29:38
Manni
ah Okay.
00:29:40
Steph
um I grew up going to church. um So it's kind of interesting. Like my parents, my my parents were married for like 20 years and then were divorced when I was about a sophomore, maybe in high school.
00:29:56
Steph
And we grew going to church. um Interestingly, um both my parents, I've shared before, are from Jamaica. um So black family, mom, dad, ah me and my younger brother.
00:30:11
Steph
And um but we went to a predominantly white church. um
00:30:17
Manni
Uh-oh. I'm just kidding.
00:30:18
Steph
I know, I know.
00:30:20
Manni
I'm just um just i just sort of.
00:30:20
Steph
i feel like I do feel like that is kind of important to know.
00:30:23
Manni
Sort of.
00:30:26
Steph
i feel like that is a little important to know.
00:30:27
Manni
Yeah.
00:30:29
Steph
um So um without like getting too...
00:30:31
Manni
The white devil.
00:30:32
Steph
Girl.
00:30:32
Manni
I'm just kidding.
00:30:33
Steph
without getting
00:30:34
Manni
Sorry, I'm going to stop.
00:30:35
Steph
girl Without getting too, too personal, um my mom, my mom's mom, so my grandma, who we just celebrated her 90th birthday a couple weeks ago.
00:30:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Happy birthday, Grandma.
00:30:48
Steph
My birthday grandma, she's the best.
00:30:49
Manni
Happy birthday.
00:30:52
Steph
um So my grandma is divorced. Okay. And um my grandpa who has passed, he passed, oh my gosh, my grandpa died of COVID in 2020, like in the height of it.
00:31:05
Manni
wow
00:31:06
Steph
Yeah. um he like, again, without being too personal, this is truth that he was very abusive to my grandma. So like, you know, for someone of that time to get divorced that, you know what i mean?
00:31:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:31:20
Manni
right
00:31:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:31:20
Steph
So that's important to know because we would go to church But for a while, my mom would stay home. My dad would take my brother and I to church.
00:31:33
Manni
yeah
00:31:33
Steph
my mom was starting to be like, I, she always struggled with church because my grandpa who made them go to church was pretty abusive to my grandmother.
00:31:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. and hey
00:31:46
Steph
And so she really struggled with the hypocrisy of, you know, preaching God's love and then coming home and not being, you know, yeah,
00:31:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:31:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think that's why my mom ended up in the Unitarian church actually.
00:32:00
Steph
Yeah. So just know that that message was always kind of in the back of my head when going to church.
00:32:02
Manni
round
00:32:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:32:07
Steph
And also didn't really have a great connection to the church that we attended. Like we attended this church and it was like, it was a Baptist church. So I grew up Baptist and it was, you know, just a lot of old white people, no offense. And then like We, they had like, and then they had like, you know, like interesting, they had the classes for the kids and then the big service for the adults.
00:32:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No offense.
00:32:33
Steph
And i don't know, I just didn't really feel connected when I went to those classes and, um and all that. So when, when my parents got divorced, there was kind of a lull in going to church because my mom was not the one who took us to church and we were with her predominantly.
00:32:46
Manni
Yeah.
00:32:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh yeah.
00:32:51
Steph
But then I made some friends that were Christian and went to a church that had a lot of programming for teens. And I started to go to church with them.
00:33:03
Steph
And then a yeah, it's
00:33:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, I didn't realize that part of it, Steph. So it wasn't with your immediate family that you were going to that church.
00:33:10
Steph
No. but Yeah. Well, so I was invited to stuff and then i really liked it. And I'd be like, mom, I think you would like this church. Like we should go to this church.
00:33:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:33:20
Steph
Yeah. And so we would go to church every Sunday, but it was really kind of me encouraging us all to go. and I liked the church. It was, it was a more, it was casual. Like the other church we went to, you had to get super dressed up and it was like really hoity hoity.
00:33:33
Manni
Those are the Baptists.
00:33:35
Steph
Yeah. Baptist.
00:33:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So it wasn't the, the other, the later one wasn't Baptist.
00:33:40
Steph
it So it had a Baptist undertone. it was called New Life Community Christian Church. And it was supposed to be welcoming, but you did get baptized there, like the way that Baptists believe to be baptized. So not like Catholics where you baptize into the church.
00:33:56
Steph
It's a declaration of your faith.
00:33:56
Manni
Yeah.
00:33:58
Steph
um So they do have like baptism.
00:33:58
Manni
yeah
00:34:00
Steph
So you could tell it was like a Baptist undertone, but and everyone was welcome kind of a thing.
00:34:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay.
00:34:06
Steph
And so um I feel like there was, I felt like I did my spirituality and my connection and my faith really grew because I was going to these like, you like i was going to Bible studies and we were having discussions. We would read passages and discuss what it meant to us. And I just felt really more connected to my faith then than when I was a kid.
00:34:29
Steph
But then as and I went to college, And my whole freshman year, I would drive home every every Sunday day and go to church.
00:34:36
Manni
Yeah.
00:34:36
Steph
um
00:34:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And then you met us heathens.
00:34:37
Steph
and then And then I met you guys and then I was like, no.
00:34:38
Manni
yeah yeah Sunday, I'm not going to church. I'm drinking.
00:34:43
Steph
ah you But i feel like I feel like at the time, yes, 100%, I was like, I'm not driving home.
00:34:46
Manni
I'm nursing my hangover.
00:34:54
Steph
I think I just got home like four hours ago. um
00:34:57
Manni
And we would have practice like, so you had to rest.
00:35:00
Steph
Practice on Sundays too, that didn't help anything.
00:35:03
Manni
Yes.
00:35:04
Steph
Yes. But um I feel like in college, something that awoken in me was my political beliefs and um my my view on the United States and how, and I felt like around that time, like, you know, my first presidential election I voted in was for, in 2004 for John kerry
00:35:14
Manni
oh
00:35:27
Manni
Yeah.
00:35:28
Steph
And I feel like that was around when there was a lot of weapon like weaponizing the Christian faith. And i felt like I felt like kind of how my mom must have felt. Like you're talking about faith, but you're being so hateful towards the LGBTQ community.
00:35:41
Manni
Hmm.
00:35:43
Steph
You're being so hateful towards um people who um struggle financially. You're being so hateful. to you know And so my faith kind of had another shift because I believe in helping those.
00:35:58
Steph
who need help.
00:35:58
Manni
Thank you.
00:35:58
Steph
And I believe in inclusivity and I believe in, um, finding what, you know, like just very progressive views. And I felt like the Republican party and the conservative party really, um, found a way to align Christianity with their, their beliefs.
00:36:18
Steph
And, um, it just, so just had a hard time like with church and I'll tell another quick story and then, um, I will stop talking, but, um,
00:36:29
Manni
We were wondering. No, I'm just kidding.
00:36:30
Steph
you know um, so this, gosh, this post-college. Um, I was maybe, gosh, I don't really know. I was in my mid twenties maybe, and it was father's day and my dad, um, has, since has been remarried.
00:36:49
Steph
Um, He and his wife have two kids. So I have two half siblings and it was father's day, but it was a certain father's day. It was the father's day after the pulse shooting.
00:37:00
Steph
So I don't know what year that was.
00:37:02
Manni
I don't know what the pulse shooting is.
00:37:04
Steph
The, the, the, in Orlando, Noah's in Florida and gay club and 49 people were killed, I believe.
00:37:04
Manni
What was that?
00:37:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
In Orlando.
00:37:05
Manni
Oh, in Las Vegas? Oh, Orlando. Okay.
00:37:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It was a gay club.
00:37:10
Manni
Right.
00:37:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:37:12
Manni
Yes.
00:37:14
Steph
And
00:37:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
This would have been like six or seven years ago.
00:37:19
Steph
I thought it was longer. I think it's longer ago than that.
00:37:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, maybe longer, maybe longer.
00:37:22
Manni
Yeah.
00:37:23
Steph
Yeah. So, um, so anyway, it was like, you know, that happened on like a Friday and then sun that Sunday was father's day. P.S.
00:37:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:37:32
Steph
That weekend was, is always the same weekend as pride in here in Columbus.
00:37:39
Manni
Yes.
00:37:39
Steph
And, um, father's day weekend is always like the weekend of pride.
00:37:39
Manni
Yeah.
00:37:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
home
00:37:41
Manni
Father's Day. Yeah.
00:37:44
Steph
And so, and, um, so just keep that in mind. And so I'm like, it's Father's Day. ah should probably, I think my dad would love it if I went to church. I feel like maybe I should go to church anyway. I'm feeling really, I was feeling really, i don't know what the, after the pulse shooting.
00:38:01
Steph
And I was like, I could, could use a good message. My dad and his wife go to a predominantly black church and, um, And so some I usually look forward to going there for, you know, music and everything like that.
00:38:16
Steph
But this pastor basically gave this whole sermon about manhood and how you're not a man if you are gay
00:38:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh God.
00:38:27
Steph
And basically gave this sermon about how like the universe is speaking out against um um like homosexuality because the universe is showing us that this isn't like, I mean, it was the most disgusting sermon I have ever heard that you could ever say on the weekend that 49 souls lost their lives.
00:38:27
Manni
Hmm.
00:38:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh no.
00:38:50
Steph
And, you know, I, and not, and people were in the, like, yeah,
00:38:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, no.
00:38:56
Manni
Oh no.
00:38:56
Steph
All that. And let me tell you the way that i wanted to run like and and lose my mind.
00:38:58
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:05
Steph
And so from that day forward, I promised I would never set foot in that church again.
00:39:06
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:10
Steph
And I have not.
00:39:12
Manni
Hmm.
00:39:12
Steph
And yeah, it made me sick to my stomach.
00:39:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm. Hmm.
00:39:18
Steph
And I still get upset about it.
00:39:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:21
Steph
um So that's why I have a tricky... relationship with my faith because I do believe what I believed. you know, I do believe in Jesus. I do believe, you know, like i I grew up believing that had a really powerful connection with my faith, especially since I gained it in my youth and gained it through, through friendships and we were reading the Bible and discussing it.
00:39:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:39:44
Steph
And I feel like there's so much positivity, but what has happened in this country with faith has made me not want to go because it, You know, i and and that's, you know, I just probably have not found the right church that would, you know, present it in the way that I would feel comfortable.
00:40:04
Steph
um But anyway, yeah.
00:40:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:40:07
Manni
Yeah.
Spiritual Leadership and Personal Grief
00:40:08
Manni
There was a lot there, Steph. That was...
00:40:09
Steph
Sorry.
00:40:10
Manni
yeah
00:40:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I know. I feel like I have a gajillion questions, but we...
00:40:13
Steph
ah
00:40:13
Manni
Yeah. we're I'm looking at time and I'm like, it's okay.
00:40:14
Steph
Yeah, I'm sorry.
00:40:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:40:15
Steph
I know. Sorry.
00:40:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So we'll have Manny... no no No, no, This is great. I think this sets up next week really nicely. So Manny, let's...
00:40:22
Manni
Yeah. Yeah. No, the foundation of our faith is is important. And I think my my only response...
00:40:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:40:30
Manni
I have lots of responses, but the one that's coming to mind for me right now is that post-election right before the election, um i think I mentioned this on another episode, but right before the election ended, I did have, you know, I was in like a very meditative, contemplative place and contemplative um place and Um, I think the Pope had just come out with something about, um, he made some sort of statement that I really disagreed with.
00:41:01
Manni
And, um, it was, it just occurred to me, like, we're going to like the spiritual leadership of the world, not even of the, of our country, but the spiritual leadership of the world has lost its way.
00:41:14
Manni
And, um, people are aching for spiritual leadership, you know, and, um,
00:41:14
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:41:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:41:20
Manni
We currently don't have anyone. We don't have a Mother Teresa. We don't have a and Martin Luther King.
00:41:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:41:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Right.
00:41:28
Manni
We don't have a, but you know, we don't have a spiritual leader who is going to help the collective evolve and and heal and repair.
00:41:28
Steph
Okay, I mean.
00:41:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh
00:41:35
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:41:39
Manni
And um that, you know it can make you sad or it can make you go inward to discover what you need for yourself and and determine your own you know spiritual practice that feels right and soothing.
00:41:55
Manni
um And that's the beauty of not having a monopoly on God. Yeah.
00:42:00
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:00
Manni
um But I think what I'm hearing is that way people are trying to place a monopoly on God, and it is so impossible to do that, which is why we're seeing so much conflict.
00:42:05
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:42:11
Manni
We're seeing masses leaving the church. um I think this is, again, going to lead into our conversation of um next week of like witchcraft and woo and people returning back to you know those ancient healing practices that we did that made our that were more and for smaller tribes of people.
00:42:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Personal. Mm-hmm.
00:42:34
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:34
Manni
Yeah.
00:42:35
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:36
Manni
i'm And I think, you know, the other thing here with regard to spirituality, you know, just like trying to get really concrete on this definition of like, it's not material.
00:42:51
Manni
um
00:42:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's
00:42:52
Manni
It's not, it's not biological. It's not ideology.
00:42:55
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
not physical, no.
00:42:56
Manni
i It's not ideology. It's not biology and it's not psychology, right? And so I think one of the reasons why we confuse our spirituality and why religion gets so blurred is because we confuse spirituality with biology or we confuse spirituality with ideology or we confuse spirituality with psychology.
00:43:20
Manni
And it's none of that.
00:43:20
Steph
Anyway.
00:43:21
Manni
It's not of the material world.
00:43:21
Steph
and
00:43:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:43:24
Manni
And um I think what I'm understanding about myself now that I'm older and I have a very, uh, fluid spiritual practice, I guess.
00:43:40
Manni
Um, I guess for me, like spirituality explains for me or having a higher power or God explains for me what happens when things vanish and what happens when things appear.
00:43:57
Manni
seemingly out of nowhere. And my story starts there. You know, I on have shared that I lost my dad when I was eight.
00:44:11
Manni
And so that's the genesis for me, right? um How do you explain to an eight-year-old that people just vanish?
00:44:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:44:22
Manni
How do you explain to an eight-year-old that people disappear?
00:44:28
Manni
And thankfully, you know, my mom allowed for me to be on that journey on my own. Everybody in my house lost somebody that day that my dad died know and we all experienced it differently.
00:44:40
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:44:41
Manni
And, um, I would go to try to find answers to that in the woods. I was like, just always out in nature playing by the Creek.
00:44:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
who
00:44:53
Manni
Like I liked being by myself um and just trying to understand how someone can just leave and we not know where they go.
00:45:06
Manni
And so much of spirituality for me and my learning is about embracing death. and not being scared to die and not being scared to lose people.
00:45:20
Manni
And that is such a hard journey.
00:45:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:45:25
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:45:26
Manni
um But it's, death is one of the like major um
00:45:39
Manni
contemplative points of my meditation. um because I think for so long i was scared of death from losing somebody so young.
00:45:51
Manni
And um I would explore it in a very natural, curious way when I was young. But then I got to ah college and discovered drugs and alcohol, and um that curiosity turned into numbing.
Understanding Mortality through Spiritual Exploration
00:46:09
Manni
And when I think about like the collective and I think about like our exploration of death and life together as a collective, i see a lot of numbing happening in our society. you know, whether it be through drugs, alcohol, food, sex, social media, whatever it might be, we're trying to numb something that's such a natural occurrence.
00:46:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:46:29
Manni
um And or we're trying to explain it. and assure people of something that we can't assure them of, you know, or they, it might look different for them, you know?
00:46:40
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:46:47
Manni
um So a lot of my growing up, we were Baptist and church was an all day occasion. We would leave from, yeah yeah, we would leave from our house.
00:46:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Really? i had no idea.
00:47:03
Manni
We had, there was a 1045 service or a 730 service. 730 service lasted like an hour, 1045 service lasted till about three o'clock. And sometimes there would be, and sometimes there would be
00:47:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
What? Why?
00:47:15
Steph
Yeah.
00:47:17
Steph
yeah
00:47:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i mean, like, why the difference between the two? Like, what is...
00:47:20
Manni
I'm going explain, and girl.
00:47:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
but Okay, sorry, sorry.
00:47:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
This is all new to me.
00:47:26
Manni
oh
00:47:28
Manni
Sometimes there would be a afternoon service, too. So that would mean that depending on my mom, like depending on your service to the church, my mom was an usher. um So depending on your service to the church, like that would.
00:47:41
Manni
kind of dictate where we would go, what service we would go to. But my mom was an usher, but then my brothers and sister and I, we, we sung in the choir and we were also ushers. So like if my mom was ushering at seven 30 and we were ushering at 10 45, like that would require us to stay like all day.
00:47:52
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:47:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:47:57
Manni
And then if there was an after school, after school, after, um, after the normal service, if we had like a guest come in to preach and my mom wanted to hear that person preach, then we would stay till like three. And we lived an hour away from my church. So if we were going to 730 service, we were leaving the house at six o'clock.
00:48:17
Manni
um So it was a long day.
00:48:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
damn wait but can you tell me what like ah why was the 7 30 service one hour and then the later one was like five or my math isn't mathing but
00:48:19
Manni
Yes. And.
00:48:27
Manni
Oh,
00:48:30
Manni
um So the seven, yeah, so the preacher would only preach for like a shorter amount of time. And the the structure of the service would be um like they wouldn't go through all the announcements.
00:48:41
Manni
They wouldn't go through like all the songs.
00:48:41
Steph
Yeah.
00:48:43
Manni
Like there's a lot of prayer and worship that goes into the 1045 service that gets consolidated in the 730 service. So the 1040, keep going.
00:48:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And is it, sorry, is it more just um like for the preference of the, what's the word, congregation?
00:48:54
Manni
keep going
00:49:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like you can kind of, if you want something that's a little more focused, you know, you come to the 730 if you want like the whole, is that the purpose of having the two very different?
00:49:11
Manni
Yeah.
00:49:15
Manni
I think, I think, yeah, I think there's an exchange there between the preference of the people like offering um, ah a variety to people to be able to at least access, um, the worship.
00:49:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:49:29
Manni
Uh, and I think it's also the preacher being able to get a little warmed up for the seven 30.
00:49:33
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:49:34
Manni
Uh, and, um, I think because there's so many quiet, there were, where our church is now, um,
00:49:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay.
00:49:35
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:49:42
Manni
we're We're seeing membership dwindle, but um I think also there are so many choirs. So to give the choirs an opportunity and everyone an opportunity to serve in a way.
00:49:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
okay
00:49:51
Manni
Right. um So and then if there if it's communion Sunday, we didn't even get into that. If it's communion Sunday, then you get an opportunity to get ah communion if you can't make it at the later service.
00:50:02
Manni
So, um yeah, that's.
00:50:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
How often, I'm sorry, i have lots of questions. How often was communion Sunday?
00:50:07
Manni
Yeah.
00:50:08
Steph
Once
00:50:10
Manni
Communion is once a month.
00:50:11
Steph
a month.
00:50:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay.
00:50:12
Manni
Yeah. Um, so communion always at my church fell on the like third Sunday of the month or something like that.
00:50:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:50:18
Manni
So each, each month had a different, uh, spiritual like, uh, focus, but, um, yeah.
00:50:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:50:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay.
00:50:26
Manni
Um, any other questions before I keep going?
00:50:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i'm Please proceed, but yes, I do have more questions.
00:50:34
Manni
okay
00:50:34
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:50:34
Manni
um I don't even know where I was in my story. So I'll just like, I'll just pause there for, for now. um And we can read you, I guess.
00:50:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well, I guess it's interesting.
00:50:45
Manni
Oh, wait, sorry. i do I do remember where I was going with this though.
00:50:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:50:48
Manni
um Part of the reason why the reason why I brought this up is because after church, my dad was very sick. So after church, my dad was at a nursing home and we would go and we would visit my dad at the nursing home. That was a part of the ritual of Sunday.
00:51:05
Manni
So I would get to the the only time during the week I got to see my dad was on Sunday after church.
00:51:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:51:11
Manni
And so when he left,
00:51:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:51:14
Manni
that ritual also left. So that part of the grief also was a wound that I was trying to to find, right?
00:51:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:51:22
Manni
And that's also something that doesn't get explained to you when you're going through your healing process of like these little tiny memories that you hold with another person, where do you place them now that you no longer are physically seeing that person in the capacity in which you were doing it and
00:51:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:51:35
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:51:43
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:51:43
Manni
or doing so.
00:51:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:51:43
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:51:43
Manni
And so um I had a lot of my curiosity around death was what do I do? What do we do now with this time? Like what becomes of this moment in time now that we no longer are visiting the nursing home after church?
00:52:00
Manni
And that was, you know, That was ah something that um was uncomfortable. You know, it's a deep silence that is very loud.
00:52:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:52:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:52:10
Manni
um
00:52:11
Manni
And then, you know, the rhythm of my house changed. Right. the Like, you know, my brother, you know, seemingly became the man of the house. Right. My sister, who's 12 years older than me, had to start working.
00:52:23
Manni
with, she already had various responsibilities, but she was like taking me to my dance classes and my soccer practices. I went with her on her on dates, like, um, like the rhythm of our house changed, you know, in the morning they all left to go to, um, school, high school, middle school starts before elementary school.
00:52:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Aww.
00:52:44
Manni
My mom had to get to work in Virginia, you know?
00:52:45
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:52:46
Manni
So like I was alone during those times. Um, And then, you know, the house creaks in a different way and, ah you know, shifts start to occur and that you're like, well, this is kind of creepy.
00:53:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:53:03
Manni
So I had to kind of make, you know, meaning of that. and And going back to what I was saying about like why people develop like their own gods, you know, that was my why. Like that was why i to dive deep, dove deep into my spirituality is because I was searching for answers and mainly comfort for my grief, you know?
00:53:24
Steph
and
00:53:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:26
Manni
Yeah.
00:53:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I, um, I recognize we are like 50 some minutes and so we're going to wrap up, but I do think, um, I think we should revisit something along these lines in the next season because, um,
00:53:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think it's interesting some of what you you alluded to, Manny, about there is ah like exodus from church, from organized religion broadly right now.
00:54:00
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:54:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think it's interesting that all three of us grew up going to different churches and seemingly are not going to church with our families, i don't believe.
00:54:14
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:54:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And so it's interesting that our children are being raised in a very different way. um
00:54:20
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:54:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so anyways, I think that's just something that we should um dive into in a future episode. Cause I, I'm, I get the sense from like a lot of my friend group, for example, that they had very similar journeys, not exactly the same.
00:54:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
00:54:39
Manni
yeah
00:54:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so it's, it's like a totally different world that our children are experiencing. And it does make me wonder, like, this is Maxwell missing something that would be helpful for him further down the line, ah to process things like what you're describing of like loss or grief.
00:54:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:54:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, so anyways, I think that's just something we should hold on to and maybe revisit, but, uh,
00:55:02
Manni
yeah
00:55:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
In the interest of time, does anyone have any confessionals that you want to share before we wrap?
Personal Faith vs. Communal Worship
00:55:12
Steph
I had a question for you, Manny, when you were saying, um you were talking about like spiritual spirituality is being conflated with ideology and conflated with, what were the other Because my biology, psychology.
00:55:29
Manni
biology and psychology.
00:55:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Psychology.
00:55:32
Steph
And so I was curious about that because part of my um my discomfort with organized religion was because challenged what I believe ideologically about
00:55:49
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:55:49
Steph
what i you know what my faith had taught me. And so what I believe that should look like when it comes to how we help people. And I feel like there was, um like, for example, and I'm sorry, this is kind of another story and I'm sorry for another story, but like, I remember when I was voting for ah President Obama, my dad who married a Republican woman ah was voting for McCain.
00:56:15
Manni
yeah That was, that was pause was a very long eye roll.
00:56:16
Steph
mccain That pause was a big eye roll.
00:56:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:56:21
Steph
um and And at the same time, there was a bill for um mayor ah marriage equality. At the same time you were voting for Obama, there was a marriage equality up on the ballot.
00:56:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:56:35
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:56:35
Steph
And my dad asked me, what what do you plan to vote for that? and I'm like, I'm voting to preserve marriage equality. And he was like, so mad. He started, he got really mad. And he said, where does your faith play into this, Stephanie?
00:56:56
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:56:56
Steph
And said, it plays 100% into this because I believe that God loves us all. And I also believe in the United States of America where it says separation of church and state.
00:57:08
Manni
Yeah.
00:57:08
Steph
And um and we were we were arguing.
00:57:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Mm-hmm.
00:57:12
Steph
um And so and I felt like it popped right out of my mouth. i'm like, my faith has everything to do with why I believe that everyone should be treated equally and fairly.
00:57:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:57:23
Steph
And I believe that there should be supports in place for those who struggle. And like, my faith has everything to do with why I believe what I believe about people.
00:57:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:57:33
Steph
And so that's why, so i was curious, you like when you were saying spirituality, so so would you say spirituality and faith are two different things?
00:57:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Preach.
00:57:42
Steph
And like how, like the disconnect between ideology, because I feel like those are i ideologies, but I feel like my faith informs that.
00:57:43
Manni
Yeah.
00:57:49
Manni
Yeah. So I think, um I think a lot of things, I think, Religion and spirituality are two separate things.
00:57:59
Steph
Yes, agree.
00:57:59
Manni
And so if I might've misspoke when I said, I think religion is trying to, enue you know, disguise itself ah as spirituality when it's really just religion.
00:58:08
Steph
Period.
00:58:08
Manni
And so to Karen's point, religion, the purpose of religion should be where people come to commune and um celebrate their faith together.
00:58:08
Steph
Yes. Love that.
00:58:14
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:58:18
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:58:18
Manni
Um, and, and that's like, to, to answer Karen's question, there's very few spaces where we get to celebrate our, faith and we get to congregate together.
00:58:30
Manni
We get to worship together. We get to be in praise together.
00:58:31
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:58:32
Manni
We get to be in the anointing together, um to either, celebrate our joy or mourn our collective grief. Um, and that was the purpose of religion.
00:58:41
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:58:44
Manni
Um, spirituality is personal and,
00:58:46
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:58:48
Manni
um you know, so my, and there's a, there's a spiritual teacher, Father Richard Rohr, and he talks about this duality of like,
00:59:01
Manni
how am I any different when I say my faith says this, my faith says that that's the same thing that they're saying on the other side.
00:59:06
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:59:11
Manni
My faith says not to do that.
00:59:11
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:59:13
Manni
Right. And so we have this conflict of duality of extremes of going from one side of the pendulum to the other.
00:59:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:59:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:59:18
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:59:20
Manni
And so my spirituality should bring me to middle. My spirituality should, should center me, should bring me balance, should bring me harmony, should bring me peace.
00:59:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Center yourself.
00:59:30
Manni
Right. So ideology is mental.
00:59:30
Steph
and
00:59:33
Manni
It's me um on my mental plane. So like if you, um you know, the deeper you get into your spiritual practice, you understand that there's like different ethereal planes that surround us.
00:59:42
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:59:43
Manni
And so the ah ideological ideology and the um psychology are the are two separate planes that are really mental planes.
00:59:54
Steph
and me
00:59:54
Manni
And the biology is your physical plane and your spirituality is in like your heart center. So for me, my, the reason why my spiritual practice continues to evolve and expand and why i come back day to day today is because I personally default to a mental plane.
01:00:12
Manni
I like the mental, like, you know, like state of being.
01:00:12
Steph
and
01:00:15
Steph
Same. Same.
01:00:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
01:00:17
Manni
So my goal, my, my, my focus in my spiritual practice is how do I
01:00:18
Steph
Yep.
01:00:24
Manni
transfer that mental energy or how do i move that energy into my heart and open up my heart so that i can be in space energetically with people who disagree with me and provide grace.
01:00:33
Steph
Hmm.
01:00:40
Steph
Hmm. Yeah, I ain't got that.
01:00:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
01:00:43
Manni
Yeah. yes
01:00:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I ain't got that.
01:00:49
Manni
yeah
01:00:49
Steph
I don't.
01:00:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
01:00:52
Steph
Well, that's it right there.
01:00:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I have one quick confessional just to lighten things up before we leave. i i but You just said a word that I believe i have never said the same twice.
01:01:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ethereal? Ethereal? Yeah.
01:01:07
Manni
here
01:01:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ethereal. yeah So that's my confessional. I've said it out loud maybe three times in my life.
01:01:12
Steph
Thank you.
01:01:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's never come out the same. And I don't plan to change that. So anyways...
01:01:18
Manni
ah Keep doing you, Karen.
01:01:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
this This has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you both for being open and candid and sharing your experiences. um I'm excited for next week's episode where we will bring a guest, Lex Smith. She's a wellness expert and founder of Spiritual You.
01:01:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
She will share more about spirituality, um how it can take different forms from what we've been talking about as organized religion, um And how that can be part of our lives either independently or in addition in addition to more like organized religion.
Preview of Next Episode
01:01:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Thank you so much for joining us for today's discussion. Please follow us on Instagram at youcancallmekaren underscore pod um on YouTube. Like, subscribe where you get your podcasts.
01:02:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Please leave a review so we can keep doing this every week and we will see you next week. Bye, Karens.
01:02:12
Manni
Bye.
01:02:13
Steph
Bye.