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Friendship Breakups: Heartache and Healing in Part 2 of Our Friendship Series | You Can Call Me Karen
78 Plays6 months ago
Welcome to Episode 5 of the You can Call me Karen Podcast! This is part 2 of our 3 part series about friendship. In this episode we will tackle the often-overlooked topic of friendship breakups. We will share personal experiences surrounding the emotional challenge of losing a friend as well as ways we have attempted to navigate coping with friendship loss. This episode we will discuss the not so often discussed pain, confusion, and disappointment around friendships coming to an end.
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
https://coveteur.com/friend-breakup
https://blog.findoctave.com/blog/friendship-breakups-can-be-painful-its-important-to-grieve-them
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
00:00:02
karenstansfield
Many of us have or will experience breakups in our lives. We meet someone, we fall in love, we have an amazing time and then it comes to an end. We are devastated. We lock ourselves up in our rooms, listen to sad music, eat our favorite comfort foods and shut the world out. Many of us will make some bad decisions during this time, and hopefully we have our friends to lean on to help get us through it, and eventually to tell us when to get over it and get ourselves together. But today, that's not what we're here to talk about. Today, we are here to talk about friendship breakups and why we aren't trained to go through them the same way that we are taught about romantic breakups, despite the fact that most of us will experience these far more.
00:01:15
karenstansfield
Hello and welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen pod, where we will discuss events and experiences from ah the world around us in an effort to highlight our similarities rather than our differences. I am Karen Horwitz and I'm joined by my two dearest friends, Stephanie J and Manika Rosa. It's really hard for me to say Manika.
00:01:38
Stephanie Jay
All right.
00:01:38
karenstansfield
You can say hi.
00:01:39
Mannikka Rosa
Hi.
00:01:40
karenstansfield
There it is.
00:01:41
Mannikka Rosa
I don't know why that's hard for you. I don't know why that's hard for you.
00:01:44
karenstansfield
Well, because it's Manny.
00:01:45
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:01:47
karenstansfield
Anyways,
00:01:47
Mannikka Rosa
Aw. Oh, I see.
00:01:48
karenstansfield
be before, so before we get into our topic of the week, let's hear from my lovely co-hosts, uh, their latest who you calling Karen stories.
00:01:53
Stephanie Jay
hmm.
00:02:00
karenstansfield
Let's start with Manny. Cause I hear Steph's got a spicy one.
00:02:06
Mannikka Rosa
Um, that Huey Cullen Caron was really good, Caron.
00:02:11
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:02:11
karenstansfield
Thanks.
00:02:11
Mannikka Rosa
I noticed improvements.
00:02:12
karenstansfield
I've been really practicing.
00:02:12
Stephanie Jay
I'm really proud of you.
00:02:13
karenstansfield
I feel like I haven't said it cool yet.
00:02:15
Mannikka Rosa
yes Who's calling it? Like, I like that one.
00:02:17
karenstansfield
yeah Okay.
00:02:18
Mannikka Rosa
Like, you don't want to like more.
00:02:18
Stephanie Jay
Work.
00:02:21
karenstansfield
I'll keep working on it. I'll keep working on it.
00:02:22
Stephanie Jay
Work.
00:02:23
Mannikka Rosa
Um, so speaking of friendship breakups, my Karen story of the week, uh, just to give a little bit of context to our listeners, uh, it is August 7th. We are wrapping up the Olympics and, um, my co-hosts don't have TikTok, which I kind of
00:02:38
karenstansfield
Woo.
00:02:43
Mannikka Rosa
hate because I see all these things and I want to inform them of that. But I've been going down a rabbit hole on TikTok with these Olympic stories and ah my who you calling in Karen is about Michaela Skinner. Do you guys know who that is?
00:02:59
karenstansfield
Oh yeah.
00:03:00
Stephanie Jay
yeah da
00:03:03
Mannikka Rosa
So Michaela Skinner had the audacity to come after the vote and her teammates at the Olympics.
00:03:16
karenstansfield
What she thinking?
00:03:17
Stephanie Jay
and
00:03:18
Mannikka Rosa
I have no idea.
00:03:21
karenstansfield
Hm.
00:03:21
Mannikka Rosa
She wasn't thinking, what's the online from Sandlot? If you were thinking you wouldn't have thought that.
00:03:26
Stephanie Jay
Oh.
00:03:26
Mannikka Rosa
i
00:03:27
Stephanie Jay
Yup. Yup.
00:03:28
Mannikka Rosa
Are you for real? So anyway, she got on because everybody, and to quote Simone, not everybody needs a mic and a platform, but everybody thinks they can have a mic and a platform on TikTok. And she got on TikTok and started running her mouth about how these gymnasts don't have talent. But the thing that she said that really infuriated most people is she said, since it became a safe sport. Did you guys know about this part?
00:03:56
Stephanie Jay
she Well, she was referring to the organization called SafeSport.
00:04:00
Mannikka Rosa
Yes.
00:04:00
Stephanie Jay
SafeSport is a part of whatever, yeah.
00:04:02
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:04:04
karenstansfield
Oh, so she means like you're better when you're molested.
00:04:04
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:04:04
Stephanie Jay
but yeah
00:04:07
Mannikka Rosa
Yes.
00:04:08
karenstansfield
Is that what she's getting at?
00:04:10
Mannikka Rosa
Yes. Yeah.
00:04:10
Stephanie Jay
and And berated and like all that kind of stuff.
00:04:10
karenstansfield
Cool.
00:04:11
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah. it yeah
00:04:14
Stephanie Jay
like I think that they've been working to kind of get rid of some of that.
00:04:18
Mannikka Rosa
Right. So people were furious about that because obviously molestation is bad and it was it was a weed in the gymnast community.
00:04:20
karenstansfield
Oh my God.
00:04:26
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:04:33
Mannikka Rosa
You know, it still is. That's what gymt gymnast, that's like the big part of the trauma that gymnasts go through. You know, I haven't watched Simone Biles
00:04:41
karenstansfield
Oh, I have.
00:04:41
Mannikka Rosa
documentary yet, but I'm i'm really, um yeah, I'm really interested in seeing it.
00:04:43
Stephanie Jay
oh
00:04:43
karenstansfield
Yeah, it's good.
00:04:46
Mannikka Rosa
But anyway, so, um and she's kept on going a little bit. And when um the US gymnastics team won gold, Simone Biles clapped back. and said in her comments like lack of talent, ah right, ah work ethic, lack of depth, whatever, um which was really funny.
00:04:59
karenstansfield
m
00:05:08
Mannikka Rosa
And so then people started coming after Michaela Skinner. And um just recently, I think it was yesterday, she posted her um white tears on TikTok asking Simone Biles to stop this vitriol from the internet, to use her platform to stop people from coming out. And I quote, do people, this was one of her, I don't know if it was on threads or ah X, but it was, do people care how I feel? These comments are vile.
00:05:46
Mannikka Rosa
Oh my gosh. So anyway, the video was just her like asking and pleading with Simone. um And she's just, I don't know, my Karen for the week because that is a and move, right, of like, I'm going to incite this, like, um this
00:05:53
Stephanie Jay
No.
00:05:56
karenstansfield
man
00:05:58
Stephanie Jay
No.
00:06:04
Mannikka Rosa
ah verbal violence on you, then I'm going to get held accountable for that. And then I'm going to ask the black woman in this situation to carry the emotional baggage and the emotional weight to make it right, um instead of atoning for my sins.
00:06:12
karenstansfield
Yeah, to make it right.
00:06:19
Mannikka Rosa
So anyway, Michaela Skinner, GTFO.
00:06:21
karenstansfield
Did she acknowledge that did she acknowledge that like she was wrong?
00:06:30
Mannikka Rosa
I think she also took down some of the videos.
00:06:30
Stephanie Jay
She issued in ah an apology um after She took down the videos, too. They were on YouTube. And so, Mimi, it's so funny, because I had literally just read an article about her new video. Because I think her new video is on Instagram, too, like the one where she's pleading with Simone to call off like her fans to stop like harassing her.
00:06:48
Mannikka Rosa
Oh.
00:06:57
Stephanie Jay
like Simone is in charge of them or something.
00:06:58
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah. Yeah.
00:07:00
Stephanie Jay
and um But she did issue an apology because she said that wasn't I wasn't intending to to whatever. I mean, she was though. um so She issued an apology, but it doesn't matter.
00:07:09
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:07:12
karenstansfield
well yeah this
00:07:12
Stephanie Jay
like You can't unring the bell. She made comments that were like disrespectful.
00:07:15
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:07:19
Stephanie Jay
and
00:07:19
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:07:19
karenstansfield
this is i mean this is like the Oh, it's so frustrating. Like the apology thing, like in our society, people are so proud. They can't just apologize and take responsibility for their actions.
00:07:33
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:07:33
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:07:33
karenstansfield
It's, it's always a qualification. Like I wasn't intending to say X, Y, and Z, but you said it.
00:07:35
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You sat in front of the audience.
00:07:39
karenstansfield
So I don't, you can't take away, you know, like the way that we received it.
00:07:39
Mannikka Rosa
Right? Right.
00:07:43
Mannikka Rosa
It's also not an apology when you play victim, right?
00:07:46
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:07:46
karenstansfield
Right.
00:07:46
Mannikka Rosa
Of like, please, just say you're sorry.
00:07:47
karenstansfield
If you're sorry, just say you're sorry. Take responsibility for your actions.
00:07:47
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:07:49
Mannikka Rosa
Like, I'm sorry that you didn't realize how big Simone Biles was.
00:07:50
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:07:55
Mannikka Rosa
She doesn't have fans.
00:07:56
karenstansfield
and
00:07:58
Mannikka Rosa
The whole world is behind this woman, and you bumped your head momentarily for two seconds and forgot that.
00:08:06
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:08:06
Mannikka Rosa
Right? Because you're sitting at home and not at the Olympics.
00:08:09
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:08:10
Mannikka Rosa
That's what that was about. Right?
00:08:11
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:08:11
Mannikka Rosa
And so, like, this is not Simone Biles doesn't have fans.
00:08:12
karenstansfield
Oh my gosh.
00:08:15
Mannikka Rosa
so whole Have you seen the celebrities that are there to watch her?
00:08:17
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:08:18
karenstansfield
I know, it's wild.
00:08:20
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:08:21
karenstansfield
And also like, ah it's not fandom. It's pure awe and appreciation of her raw talent. Like she is
00:08:29
Mannikka Rosa
Yes. Yes.
00:08:31
karenstansfield
And she is just incredible. There's no arguing with it. Hands down the best gymnast ever.
00:08:34
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:08:37
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:08:37
karenstansfield
And by the way, operating in a quote, safe sport. Now I realize she has her baggage, but you know, maybe being joyful and ah happy and loving your sport also makes you better.
00:08:50
karenstansfield
Cause she's also the oldest gymnast to like achieve her accolades.
00:08:50
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:08:53
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:08:53
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:08:55
karenstansfield
So fascinating.
00:08:55
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:08:56
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah. And it brings me to a point of like, um I think Stephanie talked about this a little bit, like the the angry black woman trope of like, how did you expect for her to respond to that?
00:08:59
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:09:07
Mannikka Rosa
You disrespected her after she worked so hard to get back into the Olympics and to um get to a space where she feels physically, emotionally, spiritually, mentally healthy enough to compete.
00:09:10
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:09:21
Mannikka Rosa
Right? We all saw her have to go through that very public disappointment at the Olympics the last time she was there. How did you expect for her to respond to your comment?
00:09:32
karenstansfield
Right.
00:09:34
Stephanie Jay
And the truth is she responded pretty like, it's pretty tight.
00:09:37
karenstansfield
In the most graceful way.
00:09:40
Stephanie Jay
Like it was, you know, like little tweets, like they were, they were subtle.
00:09:40
karenstansfield
Yeah. It was subtle.
00:09:44
Stephanie Jay
Like you knew who what she was talking about, but she didn't call her by name.
00:09:48
Mannikka Rosa
Right?
00:09:48
Stephanie Jay
She didn't, you know what I mean? She was just like, you know, not everybody should be as you can be, you know?
00:09:51
karenstansfield
She was as classy as you can be when someone puts you on blast.
00:09:55
Mannikka Rosa
Kayla.
00:09:56
Stephanie Jay
So,
00:09:56
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:09:57
karenstansfield
Yeah, yeah.
00:09:59
Stephanie Jay
as they kept saying, F around and find out.
00:10:02
Mannikka Rosa
Have a round and find out.
00:10:03
Stephanie Jay
F around and find out.
00:10:03
Mannikka Rosa
And I guess Mckayla found out.
00:10:06
Stephanie Jay
She found out.
00:10:06
karenstansfield
yeah I love how every week now you are putting somebody on blast on this show. I can't remember who was the last time, but I was like, oh my gosh, we're calling people by names. Okay, here we are.
00:10:19
Stephanie Jay
Well, it's in the news. I just read about it.
00:10:23
karenstansfield
It is in the news. It is in the news.
00:10:26
karenstansfield
Steph, yes, let's get to the spicy, spicy Karen.
00:10:28
Stephanie Jay
are you ready for my story?
00:10:31
karenstansfield
I am ready.
00:10:31
Stephanie Jay
and Okay. Um, so as, so I am a dance teacher and we, um, so we have, in case you forgot,
00:10:42
Mannikka Rosa
and You guys forgot.
00:10:45
Stephanie Jay
And before like the school year starts, um we like all of us who teach dance, we do our own choreography for most of our groups. And then um our studio also really likes to bring in really well-known and great guest choreographers. and so But we do our in-house choreography, and we do it kind of like a camp. So we choreograph the dances, and then we have um two separate weeks of camp. The kids come in, and we teach them the dances that we came up with. and i um it's really hard um work to choreograph a whole routine. um You come into the studio and you have you know 20 or 30 or 10 or 15 eager eyes looking at you and these families are excited they pay a lot of money to dance and this is the routine that you're using all year long okay so there's a lot of pressure like you walk in and you this is their dance like that they are going to rehearse every week
00:11:35
Stephanie Jay
and um you put your heart and soul into it, and you come up with costumes, and so we commonly draw pictures of our costumes, we hang them on the door, we reveal the music, it's really a big deal. So like, um when I, got um you guys know I go in my choreography cave, it's because there's a lot of pressure. So my Karen story is doesn't involve me personally, because truthfully, if this happened to me, I would be in jail right now.
00:12:02
Mannikka Rosa
Hehehe.
00:12:02
Stephanie Jay
um My coworker told me um yesterday that um after day one of camp, so this is the first day she plays the music, they she starts teaching the dance, you know, she tells them their concept and all that stuff, and then the next day we have them for an hour and 15 minutes for each dance. She gets an email from two set different parents of kids in the group saying that they don't want their kid dancing to the song that she chose for the group.
00:12:37
Stephanie Jay
The song is called My Pumps and it is sung by a drag queen.
00:12:49
karenstansfield
Oh.
00:12:49
Stephanie Jay
And so the um song um They said that I don't want my daughter dancing to a song sung by a drag queen.
00:12:59
karenstansfield
Whoa.
00:12:59
Stephanie Jay
So either change the song or I'm pulling my kid.
00:13:05
Mannikka Rosa
i okay Wow.
00:13:06
Stephanie Jay
Um, but there are so many things wrong with that. Um, first of all, the disrespect to my coworker who poured her heart into PS, she had 16 groups to choreograph, 16 groups. Okay. So she was in camp one and camp two. She worked her tail off and And thinking about how I port, like, you know, you think about each kid, where should they stand? What are their special skills?
00:13:36
Mannikka Rosa
yeah Yes, yes.
00:13:36
Stephanie Jay
Like, and she came up with this, she chose a song that is, yes, the detail, the effort.
00:13:39
Mannikka Rosa
The details.
00:13:43
Stephanie Jay
The song is sassy. It's empowering. It's good for that age group. Um, it basically says like, I opened my closet and what do I wear? And I put on my shoes and my stomp, you know, it's very, it's adorable.
00:13:53
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:13:55
Stephanie Jay
And it's perfect for that that group to give them confidence, to give them swag and all those things that you're trying to work on.
00:13:56
Mannikka Rosa
ah
00:14:02
Stephanie Jay
And so she I know what she went, what what went into it. So just that aside. But how are we going to... to decide i' about of like about to cuss um how are we going to decide what is uh like we're gonna diss a song because of the artist because the artist happens to be a drag queen so then are we allowed to dance to people who are gay are we allowed to use artists who are like why are we going to start to decide that the song is inappropriate because who's saying the song
00:14:14
karenstansfield
Okay.
00:14:26
Mannikka Rosa
Right. All Right, right, might might right, right.
00:14:31
karenstansfield
and
00:14:34
Stephanie Jay
Like, if if that exact same song was sung by just a cishet woman, then is it appropriate? are you Are you kidding me?
00:14:41
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:14:43
Stephanie Jay
Is this where we're going to go? Is this the road we're going to go down? Because I'm about to go off.
00:14:46
Mannikka Rosa
Right. Not to mention like okay political politicality but politics aside, right we are talking about art.
00:14:54
Stephanie Jay
who
00:14:56
Mannikka Rosa
So like when when that when your like opinions start to and infiltrate the art and you try to censor art, it is really so maddening from a creator's perspective because art cannot be censored, it's art.
00:15:09
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:15:10
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:15:14
Stephanie Jay
Yes. And what kills me is like, if you're bothered by drag queens, for whatever reason you might be, you're, the group is all girls in a dance costume. So it's not going to be presented as drag queens. It's not possible when it's all girls dancing. Like, you know what I mean? like
00:15:33
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:15:34
Stephanie Jay
That's probably not even the angle. She heard the song and the lyrics and the energy and the rhythm and said, this would be fun to do for kids. And she would like you term it political moms.
00:15:44
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:15:46
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:15:47
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:15:47
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:15:47
Stephanie Jay
And um and ah so.
00:15:49
karenstansfield
Sorry, so I'm totally jumping to.
00:15:50
Mannikka Rosa
How did they even find out that that that was, sorry, I just have a question.
00:15:53
karenstansfield
Oh, go ahead.
00:15:55
Mannikka Rosa
How did they even find out that that, like, how did that even occur?
00:15:58
karenstansfield
No.
00:15:59
Stephanie Jay
So I'm assuming when the kids came home and they were like, you know, they're like, mom, we're dance to a song. It's called my palms. Like blah, blah, blah. And she's like, my palms. And she probably typed it because I typed it into, I knew the song, but I was telling my husband about it last night. And so I typed it into Spotify and the song comes up and you see ah like a picture of the singer.
00:16:18
Mannikka Rosa
Oh, okay.
00:16:18
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:16:20
Stephanie Jay
Like, I mean, it's clearly a drag queen, but so, so what?
00:16:23
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, right, right, right.
00:16:25
Stephanie Jay
um And so.
00:16:27
Mannikka Rosa
So, what?
00:16:28
Stephanie Jay
So what?
00:16:29
Mannikka Rosa
i
00:16:30
Stephanie Jay
um and i so And it's funny because I played the song for my husband and he was like, and I was like, what do you think of this song? And he was like, I think I know where the story's going. Is that a drag queen? And I was like, yeah. And obviously the community we live in, he's not surprised that that would even happen. And he was like, oh my God. So um anyway, um if that had been me, no.
00:16:51
Mannikka Rosa
Wow. So are the girls pulled from the routine. ah See you later. It's easier to do in a formation than it is to change the song.
00:16:55
karenstansfield
Yeah. Yeah. So, exactly. Yeah. This is where I was going. I was like, what happened? Did they accommodate her? Because then we're just empowering the Karen. You're nodding.
00:17:10
Mannikka Rosa
Oh no.
00:17:12
Stephanie Jay
my coworker changed the song. So day two, now um she talked to our directors about it. And I'm assuming knowing my directors that they were like, it's up to you, but here are some things to consider kind of a thing. And um she did change the song. She did not change the choreography though. And she was like, so she literally just lifted the steps and put it to a different song.
00:17:39
karenstansfield
No.
00:17:41
Stephanie Jay
And um she did kind of have to change like the intro. like She used the same steps, but like there were some lip syncing that like the girl was going to do. And she kind of tweaked it here and there. But she said, I'm not read she's like i'm not doing a 17th dance. And so I was proud of her for that. And she was like, you know are what what was originally a very thought out idea is now just a dance. you know like Now you're just getting a song.
00:18:01
karenstansfield
No.
00:18:01
Mannikka Rosa
Yep.
00:18:03
Stephanie Jay
You're getting some steps to a song as opposed to a concept that I worked on.
00:18:05
Mannikka Rosa
ye Yep.
00:18:08
Stephanie Jay
And that's on you kind of a thing.
00:18:08
Mannikka Rosa
Yep. And that's what they want.
00:18:11
Mannikka Rosa
So I know we're getting like a little bit over time here and we want to move into the episode, but like, I'm really curious, um, Steph, you will have to keep us updated on how the directors, um, handle this because this is going to be a phenomenon that is not going to go away and they need to nip that in the butt because we see it in the classroom, we see it in education.
00:18:11
Stephanie Jay
And that's what they want, yeah.
00:18:14
Stephanie Jay
Yes, I'm sorry. Mm-hmm.
00:18:19
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:18:24
Stephanie Jay
Yeah. I know. And I...
00:18:29
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:18:30
Stephanie Jay
Yeah, I... Mm-hmm.
00:18:33
Mannikka Rosa
And now they're trying to do it in sports and extracurriculars.
00:18:35
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:18:36
Mannikka Rosa
And it's like your ideology.
00:18:39
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:18:39
Mannikka Rosa
um You don't want our ideology in spaces. We don't want your ideology in spaces. Like, how are we going to co-exist?
00:18:45
Stephanie Jay
here Yeah, pretty anxious about it, to to be honest, because I know um a couple of i know that my two directors and owners of the studio, um one more so than the other, we do not share um political beliefs and perspectives.
00:18:45
karenstansfield
Mmhmm.
00:18:47
Mannikka Rosa
What's part of the boundary here? I would be anxious to.
00:19:02
Stephanie Jay
and um you know, and I am an educator, I have had students who came in with that Fox newsletter that says you're not allowed to talk about s SEL, you're not allowed to talk about pronouns, like I've literally gotten a letter saying that I'm not allowed to talk about those things to their student. There's platforms like so i I'm, I'm on this is like over the top for me because it's like, um, and so I like I need to calm down first, but I do think I want to talk, bring it up as an issue um because i i can't I'm not going to participate in that.
00:19:31
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:19:37
Stephanie Jay
so
00:19:37
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:19:38
karenstansfield
And we're yeah, like, then where do you draw the line?
00:19:40
Mannikka Rosa
You draw the line.
00:19:41
karenstansfield
You know, if you accommodate that, then.
00:19:42
Stephanie Jay
That's what I'm saying. like
00:19:43
Mannikka Rosa
problem Yeah.
00:19:44
Stephanie Jay
here
00:19:45
Mannikka Rosa
And what happens if you have a parent who feels the other way? You know what I mean?
00:19:48
Stephanie Jay
the other way like what if exactly like it's like I feel like we should be celebrating those who celebrate inclusivity and um I think that we should be a studio that stands for inclusivity and so you know if you are a family that can't have artists who are you know we can't play music by artists who don't look like you or
00:19:48
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:19:49
Mannikka Rosa
Like,
00:20:12
Stephanie Jay
ah talk like you, then you aren't welcome here because we are a community that celebrates diversity, period.
00:20:18
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:20:18
Mannikka Rosa
yeah So, interestingly, they didn't feel this way when Travis Wall choreographed all their routines.
00:20:19
Stephanie Jay
And so,
00:20:25
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:20:27
Stephanie Jay
right? Because he, you know what, that's a really good point.
00:20:28
Mannikka Rosa
um
00:20:30
Stephanie Jay
um And they went, they they went down swinging for him because he, now granted, he comes with a lot
00:20:34
Mannikka Rosa
Yep.
00:20:35
karenstansfield
her
00:20:35
Mannikka Rosa
Of course they did.
00:20:36
karenstansfield
And he and he comes with ah he's
00:20:37
Mannikka Rosa
Because of awards. any
00:20:41
karenstansfield
He comes with a little bit of baggage, but he's incredible and everybody knows who he is. And so now he's human, right?
00:20:41
Stephanie Jay
But I got to tell you what.
00:20:47
Stephanie Jay
True.
00:20:47
karenstansfield
And now they understand that he's not a perfect human.
00:20:49
Stephanie Jay
True. I will say like. No, you're right. You're right. And I feel like I think you might be making a point that it's because it's Travis Wall, but but we did, we have had a long standing relationship with him and he, we've known him since he was a teenager. So like when all those things happened, there was context to stand up for him and
00:21:06
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:21:11
karenstansfield
Exactly. Well, this is my point is like when we break down the barrierity barriers and know each other, then.
00:21:13
Mannikka Rosa
No, I'm not talking about.
00:21:16
Stephanie Jay
Okay. I just wanted to like make sure like, like it was more like, we know him the person.
00:21:18
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, no, um and I'm not talking about the other stuff.
00:21:21
Stephanie Jay
and Okay.
00:21:23
Mannikka Rosa
I'm talking about his sexual orientation.
00:21:25
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:21:26
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:21:26
karenstansfield
Yes. But I mean, like the whole, the fact that this studio, that the parents, that the students, they all know him.
00:21:28
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:21:32
karenstansfield
He's a human.
00:21:33
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:21:33
karenstansfield
They, they like him.
00:21:34
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:21:35
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:21:35
karenstansfield
He's a, he's a person for them.
00:21:36
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:21:37
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:21:37
karenstansfield
so they can forgive the things that they you know see and as flaws.
00:21:41
Mannikka Rosa
Yes, but as far as boundaries in the witness test is involved, you can't pick and choose when the artist's personal life is going to be separate from the art.
00:21:45
Stephanie Jay
Yes.
00:21:49
Stephanie Jay
It's to separate.
00:21:49
karenstansfield
Exactly.
00:21:52
Stephanie Jay
That's a good point.
00:21:54
karenstansfield
yeah no and
00:21:54
Stephanie Jay
I'm glad that you brought that up because, again, I do want to bring this up as like an issue I take with because I i don't want to see down the road families be able to tell me, um you know, what music because I feel like there's a lot of thought a teacher makes into picking music, you know, finding clean versions.
00:21:55
karenstansfield
great
00:22:14
Stephanie Jay
um You should see the gymnastics I do with hip hop music, changing entire verses.
00:22:18
Mannikka Rosa
Oh, I can imagine.
00:22:20
Stephanie Jay
I literally take lines like from multiple verses and make a new verse.
00:22:24
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:22:24
Stephanie Jay
Um, to make sure that it's appropriate.
00:22:27
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm, yeah.
00:22:28
Stephanie Jay
So, um, so I, I.
00:22:30
karenstansfield
And then now if you have to consider someone's sexual orientation or the thing they posted in high school, like, no.
00:22:33
Stephanie Jay
Sexual orientation or where they're from or that did.
00:22:38
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:22:38
Stephanie Jay
and I can't, I won't live my life like that.
00:22:39
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, too much. Yep. Yeah. Wow, that was a good one.
00:22:45
Stephanie Jay
Sorry.
00:22:45
karenstansfield
Yeah, that was, but I feel like that's a whole topic for, yeah, and screw this episode, we're just pivoting.
00:22:48
Stephanie Jay
ah That's a whole topic.
00:22:48
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, are we are we doing this friendship episode?
00:22:52
Stephanie Jay
so ah so but
00:22:55
karenstansfield
No, I'm not prepared for that, you guys.
00:22:57
Mannikka Rosa
and know
00:22:58
karenstansfield
um But we will add that to the docket for sure.
00:23:00
Stephanie Jay
the
00:23:01
karenstansfield
um All right, so I guess I will just awkwardly pivot into the topic of the week. So as I mentioned at the top, ah we are here to talk about friendship breakups. We have all experienced them, but we've never really been taught to deal with them and to properly process and grieve them.
00:23:17
Stephanie Jay
I'm so sorry.
00:23:23
karenstansfield
um I know I've reflected on this over the years and I've reflected on it with both of you. ah We've certainly both supported ah or all supported each other as we've gone through these breakups and um ah sometimes and as I reflect on friendship breakups, right, sometimes these are epic. These are emotional blowups, yelling, fighting, never speaking again, um you know rigidly sticking on your side of the story.
00:23:43
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:23:52
karenstansfield
Sometimes they quietly fade to black, which is mostly how I deal with friendship breakups. But either way, it leaves both parties confused, completely unsettled about what happened. um And we're not really taught any tools of how to handle these things. We see countless situations in the media of romantic breakups, a million different ways of how people can emotionally process these things, but it's really rare to see the depiction of a permanent and permanent or even semi-permanent friendship breakup and how people handle these things.
00:24:29
karenstansfield
So today I want to dive into maybe why we don't explore these breakups more publicly, but also how we can help our
00:24:34
Mannikka Rosa
you.
00:24:39
karenstansfield
our listeners um think through these times so we're all better prepared for for when these inevitably happen.
00:24:58
karenstansfield
All right, so let's dive into friendship breakups. um
00:25:04
Mannikka Rosa
Cardi.
00:25:04
Stephanie Jay
Pass me.
00:25:07
karenstansfield
So exciting. um As I was preparing for this episode, I was flashing back to all of the breakups I've had over the years. um And in that reflection, I've realized just how many I have been through with friends.
00:25:23
Mannikka Rosa
yeah
00:25:24
karenstansfield
I started to wonder, maybe I'm doing this friend thing a little bit wrong.
00:25:29
Mannikka Rosa
Looking caring.
00:25:29
karenstansfield
But um
00:25:32
karenstansfield
There it is. but So thanks to an article I read by Catherine Waters, which we will link in the show notes. I think that's part of the process of just trying to understand and and begin to grieve some of these losses is is self-reflection maybe a little bit of self-doubt but um you know we we're not really taught to to go through that process and so it leaves all of these lingering kind of uncomfortable feelings. um Friendship breakups I think are particularly hard because it it's not often for a clear reason um and there's
00:26:10
karenstansfield
there's always there's not always a definitive end. So for me, I tend to be pretty non-confrontational. I know that's hard to believe. um And so when I hit a stage of my friendships where things are coming to an end for for whatever reason, I have the tendency to be avoidant and just like let that relationship quietly fizzle. I become a little bit non-responsive. I don't return messages, things like that. and
00:26:38
Mannikka Rosa
Oh, ghost.
00:26:39
karenstansfield
yeah Yeah, to use the kiddos language, I totally ghost people. um Which is not cool, I realize, but that's just how I've handled these things over the years. So even even if I'm the one driving that, I still end up feeling like a little bit of ambiguity of that breakup. what I'm left with like this unsettled feeling of like what why we got to where we did. And it it leads me to a lot of confusion about just what happened and why.
00:27:11
karenstansfield
And what I'm realizing in doing this research is that increases the timeline for the grieving period.
00:27:15
Mannikka Rosa
him.
00:27:18
karenstansfield
It can cause feelings of insecurity, questioning of self-worth, all of these things. so I'm curious in your experiences whether that resonates, but also why do you think we don't prepare ourselves better for these types of breakups versus romantic breakups?
00:27:36
Stephanie Jay
you know i like i wondering if like ah do you guys remember when we were kids like there were those um necklaces like best friends forever and like oh you know like one the two pieces that like connect and it's like i feel like
00:27:45
Mannikka Rosa
yes yes
00:27:46
karenstansfield
The two pieces, yeah.
00:27:52
karenstansfield
Oh my gosh.
00:27:52
Stephanie Jay
Um, I feel like there really should be more conversation about the fact that not a whole lot of friendships do last forever.
00:28:00
Stephanie Jay
So why aren't we prepared for the fact that like, um, you know, that's probably inevitable.
00:28:04
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:28:07
Stephanie Jay
Like you're not going to necessarily be friends with the kid you met on the playground. Um, when you were seven, um, I don't know what, like where I was going with that.
00:28:14
karenstansfield
yeah
00:28:18
karenstansfield
I think. I think it's interesting. i didn't I didn't think about that as I was preparing for this, but it's interesting that we teach our kids from a super young age to find your best friend forever.
00:28:19
Stephanie Jay
i
00:28:28
Stephanie Jay
So forever, like what?
00:28:31
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:28:31
karenstansfield
like We are setting really bad expectations with that.
00:28:34
Stephanie Jay
Yeah. And maybe that's where the the insecurity, the sadness, the grief comes from because there's this like language around friends that were supposed to be friends for the rest of our lives.
00:28:36
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:28:44
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:28:47
Stephanie Jay
And maybe um if maybe it's not preparing for breakups, but realizing that friendships can oftentimes serve more of a season and in your life and more, you know, and not necessarily, you know, um
00:28:57
karenstansfield
Mhm.
00:29:03
Stephanie Jay
you know, so I don't know if it's like preparing for the breakup or preparing for the fact that friendship's ebb and flow with your life, with your with your life experiences, where you are, where you live, all those kind of things.
00:29:08
karenstansfield
Mhm.
00:29:16
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:29:16
karenstansfield
Yeah, and I think it's a good point of like not just um being able to process these emotionally, but also setting better expectations up front so that the grief isn't quite the grief isn't on your ability to be a friend.
00:29:29
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:29:33
karenstansfield
The grief is just the loss of that relationship. So it's it kind of you know it takes away at least one element of the thing that you're processing when a friendship does come to an end.
00:29:37
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:29:47
Mannikka Rosa
I think it's also like, I think this is a conversation about intensity and frequency, right?
00:29:49
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:29:53
Mannikka Rosa
So I have friendships that are intense and I have and friendships that are less intense. I have friendships that I, relationships with friends that I frequent often and I have relationship with friends that I don't frequent often, right? So I'm thinking about my best friend from seventh grade.
00:30:06
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:30:08
Mannikka Rosa
Is she not my friend because the relationship isn't intense or as frequent as it was in seventh grade? If someone was like, do you know, um, I'm not going to put her name out there, but do you know this person? I would respond, yes, she's my friend, right?
00:30:21
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:30:22
Mannikka Rosa
So um it's like, it's kind of like, I think even the concept of friendship is like so undefined because it's like, what is that person to me now if not a friend, even though the intensity and the frequency of our communication isn't what it was in 733, you know?
00:30:22
karenstansfield
hey
00:30:30
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:30:38
karenstansfield
Mm
00:30:39
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm. That's the thought that I was having when I was kind of, you know, reading over the notes and like, kind of thinking about friendship breakups. And I was thinking about it and like, to me, like, to to your point, Nini, if we're no longer as intense or like, um as if we were in middle school or high school, um but we were truly ever friends, then if
00:31:02
karenstansfield
hmm.
00:31:06
Stephanie Jay
time has elapsed and we haven't spoken in a while, then we you'll always be my friend kind of a thing. Like literally like you're somebody who I haven't spoken to in a long time, but we were actually truly friends. Cause that's where i was like where I was like, when we say friendship breakups, we're talking about true friends that like you were very close and you no longer are friends. Are we talking about people who like are in your circle?
00:31:27
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:31:29
Stephanie Jay
And so there are people who I haven't spoken to in years, but I know if I called them today,
00:31:29
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:31:33
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:31:33
Stephanie Jay
they would A, be happy to hear me, B, if I needed something, would do do anything for me, and vice versa.
00:31:33
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:31:39
Stephanie Jay
Like, as someone who I haven't spoken to, who I was actually truly friends with, called me today, even though we haven't spoken in forever, I got them, kind of a thing.
00:31:47
karenstansfield
yeah Yeah, no, I think of...
00:31:47
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:31:48
Stephanie Jay
And so it's like, are we broken up?
00:31:50
karenstansfield
No, I think of breakups as a...
00:31:51
Mannikka Rosa
A conflict.
00:31:52
karenstansfield
like ah
00:31:52
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:31:55
karenstansfield
definitive and yeah that something um I think I said earlier that there's not a definitive end, but I think, you know, I think it's...
00:32:03
Stephanie Jay
Mm.
00:32:05
karenstansfield
um ah Okay, so let me reflect on a few as examples. But when I was young, I feel like I've talked about this on an earlier episode. When I was young, I had this ah best friend forever. i be
00:32:21
Mannikka Rosa
Mm hmm.
00:32:21
karenstansfield
i My mom and her mom had done this like mom and tots class and met each other and they got along. And so then me and her daughter a you know, we were we were really good friends for a good portion of our childhood until about, I wanna say like fifth or sixth grade. And um and i I'm gonna get the details wrong, but essentially like I started making good friends with other people and she did the same. And we just kind of went in opposite paths. And I think there was a there was a point in, we probably had a conversation at school or something about like, me i was a I was a little bit of a jerk probably and said like, yeah, I'm gonna hang out with these other people.
00:33:10
karenstansfield
um And her mom called my mom like that night to it should try to like um you know like suggesting that they needed to remedy our friendship.
00:33:15
Mannikka Rosa
Oh yes, I remember you talking about this.
00:33:25
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:33:25
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:33:26
karenstansfield
And my mom was basically like, I'm not meddling in my daughter's friendship. like This is a decision she needs to make, and she needs to learn through this process.
00:33:36
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:33:38
karenstansfield
Which in hindsight, and again, I think I've shared this story, but forgive me for that.
00:33:40
Stephanie Jay
hmm.
00:33:43
karenstansfield
But like it pretty cool of my mom to be like, yeah, my daughter's got to figure this one out. This is kind of how life is.
00:33:50
Stephanie Jay
and
00:33:50
Mannikka Rosa
Yes, natural.
00:33:50
karenstansfield
um
00:33:53
karenstansfield
Um, but anyways, so that, that friendship really did come to an end. I mean, we went to school together through high school. Um, and interestingly, our lives have come, you know, full circle and we've exchanged some messages over the years on Facebook. And I keep up with like what she's doing and, and maybe vice versa. I don't really post much, but, um,
00:34:14
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:34:16
karenstansfield
So yeah, so we've become cordial over the years, but it was a very clear like, we are no longer friends.
00:34:19
Stephanie Jay
-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:34:22
karenstansfield
That was that was made clear at at a certain point.
00:34:26
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:34:26
karenstansfield
And so to me, that's like one example of like, we were friends one day and we like made a decision to not be friends going forward. When you're young, it's probably a little bit more clear because you see each other in school every day and you're playing on the playground.
00:34:42
Stephanie Jay
the
00:34:43
karenstansfield
And so there's like a, a clear change when you're not doing those things together anymore.
00:34:49
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:34:49
karenstansfield
um And when you get older, I think the ambiguity becomes greater and greater.
00:34:49
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:34:55
karenstansfield
So yeah, I think I've gone through a lot of those over the years.
00:34:56
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, that's what I was like.
00:34:57
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:34:59
Mannikka Rosa
As we were talking, I was kind of thinking about that of like, like, age.
00:35:04
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:35:04
Mannikka Rosa
Like, um I listed down some of my, like, friendship breakups, but I'm trying to think of the ones that came later in life, right? It's almost like, you know, again, paralleling this, like, romantic relationship, right? Like, were my boyfriends in seventh grade, like, really my boyfriends? You know what I mean?
00:35:20
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh.
00:35:20
Mannikka Rosa
Like, were my boyfriends in high school? Right? Like, it's kind of the same idea, right?
00:35:23
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh.
00:35:25
Mannikka Rosa
But as I got older and I started to learn more and my heart started to expand, the pain of uh breaking up with someone got deeper and the wound started to like really hurt um so i'm trying to think of like and posing to like you two of like the friendship the most recent friendship breakup that you had was it in your has it been in your 30s like or was it during this time where we were
00:35:33
Stephanie Jay
Uh
00:35:36
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:35:38
Stephanie Jay
-huh.
00:35:55
Mannikka Rosa
ah simultaneously like just like figuring out who we were that's what I love that ah second article that you posted um I think will or you sent to us and we'll put it in a comment notes or comment what am I saying
00:36:00
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:36:07
karenstansfield
The show notes, yeah.
00:36:11
Mannikka Rosa
in the show notes, but the anatomy of friend breakups, when is reconciliation good? um But I loved this line where she said, and what kind of company would I keep if I was still acting like an unmedicated 25 year old? You know, it's like, it's like so like that, like the behavior of my friends in their twenties, like, I think I allow more grace for the like,
00:36:25
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:36:34
Mannikka Rosa
BS that we put each other through because we were in our 20s.
00:36:36
karenstansfield
Mm
00:36:37
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:36:39
karenstansfield
hmm.
00:36:40
Mannikka Rosa
As I get into my 30s, I have a little bit more boundaries or I don't know, I have a little bit more, call it rules about like people in my orbit, but I'm thinking about this from
00:36:45
karenstansfield
Mm
00:36:47
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:36:52
karenstansfield
hmm.
00:36:53
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:36:54
Mannikka Rosa
the perspective of a breakup the last time I had a breakup. I don't know if it was in in the past decade or so because, um and and is that to answer your question, I guess, Karen of like, why don't we talk more about these breakups? Is it because from youth to about your twenties, it is all about like kind of finding your identity and stuff. And that is where it's more of a natural rhythm to like go in and out of these relationships.
00:37:19
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:37:23
Stephanie Jay
Like so are you saying because like I started in on my head vigorously because I thought I was are you saying that like the the frequency of breakups dissipates as we get older because we are more um intentional about who's in our circle, whereas like relationships end more often when you're young because you're kind of feeling it out because like that helps me a lot because I was like I really can't think of a friend breakup.
00:37:46
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:37:46
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:37:47
karenstansfield
Me too.
00:37:50
Stephanie Jay
I honestly have seen more re but like like reinstatement of friendships um since i've you know past 30, where I'm reconnecting with people who um I hadn't seen in a long time and maybe they left to and a big imprint on my heart and I'm connecting with them again.
00:37:55
karenstansfield
Rekindling. Yeah.
00:37:57
Mannikka Rosa
job Yeah.
00:38:15
Stephanie Jay
um But I can't think of a time recently in the past 10 years, because I'm 40 now, then I've like lost friends or ended friendship.
00:38:24
karenstansfield
Well. It is interesting. This is not something I had considered and in preparing for this, but I really like that take because one of the articles, um the writer is a therapist or psychologist, sorry if I'm getting those terms wrong, and talks about like the development of of your brain and basically it's well it's well into your twenties before your brain is like fully developed, whatever that means.
00:38:27
Mannikka Rosa
Thank
00:38:53
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:38:54
karenstansfield
I'm not a doctor. but um but But I do think that that is an interesting observation, Manny, because I would, you know, in a lot of cases, you're you're in and out of both romantic and friendships, friend relationships well into your 20s, and
00:38:57
Mannikka Rosa
think you. you're right on that.
00:39:16
karenstansfield
um and And yeah, it's not as recent of a phenomenon like for me, certainly in in my adulthood, but I will say I am much more selective with who I choose to give my time to and um and who I choose to call a friend.
00:39:23
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:39:36
karenstansfield
Whereas when you're young, it's like I i spent an afternoon with this person, they are my friend.
00:39:40
Mannikka Rosa
yeah
00:39:40
Stephanie Jay
My friend.
00:39:41
Mannikka Rosa
yes yeah
00:39:42
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:39:43
karenstansfield
And now I'm like, I don't know, we've been on three dates and I'm still on the fence about this person.
00:39:46
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:39:50
karenstansfield
By date, I mean like head coffee.
00:39:52
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:53
Stephanie Jay
friend
00:39:53
Mannikka Rosa
yeah
00:39:55
karenstansfield
Friend date, yeah.
00:39:55
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:39:56
Stephanie Jay
it Yeah, I think about that a lot.
00:39:57
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:39:58
karenstansfield
Yeah, so that is an interesting take.
00:39:58
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:40:00
Stephanie Jay
Because being a teacher, you know, I work with a lot of people close to my age, um especially recently starting to um have similar like family, like experiences. So like, our kids are like the same age, and we're starting to bond more as parents as I'm heading to year 10, when I was first starting to teach, there were coworkers and same thing, like we're all the same age and we had similar life experiences and, but I was really hesitant to call them friends.
00:40:34
Stephanie Jay
And I started teaching in my thirties and they all were like, we're friends.
00:40:34
Mannikka Rosa
Hmm.
00:40:34
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:40:38
Stephanie Jay
And I'm like, even I make that sound a lot.
00:40:40
karenstansfield
Mm. I'm busy.
00:40:44
Stephanie Jay
We're like, are we friends? Um, because like, would I trust you with, you know, personal information? And I literally, it's like, I'm auditioning people to like, who can I trust and hearing how they talk about, talked about people and how they like, I heard this and the gossip.
00:41:02
karenstansfield
on
00:41:04
Stephanie Jay
I'm like, boop Nope, you're not going to be my friend because if I tell you something personal about me, another circle is going to hear about my business. Um, so, and I feel like there's a lot of that in school.
00:41:14
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, and I think that that like, I think that that is why friendships when you're young are really hard because you can sense the ick that you're getting from certain people at a young age but you just don't know how to name it.
00:41:30
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:41:30
Mannikka Rosa
um and so you just kind of separate because you're like something feels off but you don't know how to have that conversation because you don't know what it is that you're actually experiencing in that moment.
00:41:38
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:41:38
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:41:42
Mannikka Rosa
And so to Karen's like original question of like how do we better prepare ourselves, you know, I'm just thinking
00:41:47
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:41:49
Mannikka Rosa
and And I know we we may or may not get too deeply into this, but I'm just thinking about like the word investment and you know like who who we invest ourselves in. But like that, again, I just keep coming back to these like moments of like parenting. right So like Karen, your mom, my mom did a similar thing to me with another friend.
00:42:06
karenstansfield
Thank you.
00:42:09
Mannikka Rosa
And now I find myself on the peripheral of um my oldest daughter's friendships. right And one of the big things that's happening right now is that And I love since saying this with love and light and people in my community who um know me, know this about me. So this is not something that is new to um the people in my orbit, but like I can't with the birthday parties, you know?
00:42:31
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:42:31
Mannikka Rosa
And like part of that part of that is because everybody everybody has to get invited to the birthday party.
00:42:34
karenstansfield
ah
00:42:38
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:42:39
Stephanie Jay
and who
00:42:39
Mannikka Rosa
And it's like, at what point though are we going to tell them that it is okay?
00:42:44
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:42:45
karenstansfield
That's not the world.
00:42:47
Mannikka Rosa
Right? That it is okay that you have a select group of friends who you want to attend this special day of your own, you know?
00:42:52
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:42:53
karenstansfield
her
00:42:56
Mannikka Rosa
And and so, like, is it that we're inviting everybody because we don't want to have that conversation with our children? as Are we inviting everybody because we were once the person who wasn't invited and now we're projecting, right?
00:43:03
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:43:09
Mannikka Rosa
So, like, um
00:43:10
karenstansfield
Mmm.
00:43:11
Mannikka Rosa
Having these conversations with our kids around birthday parties, I think is incredibly important.
00:43:14
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:43:16
Mannikka Rosa
Brielle will tell you, she did not get a birthday party this year. I was like, you're 12, we're done, right? we're not um I don't have the ah capacity, um but also trying to teach her about um the investment. And I know, um Karen, you linked in another article about like you know therapy talk and toxic friendships and stuff, but it is. I don't know when I think about like, when I think about ah for another example of like our vow renewal, right? Like, do I have to go back and invite people from like 20 years ago who like, but right?
00:43:43
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:43:47
Mannikka Rosa
Like, it's like the investment of my money, my energy, right?
00:43:48
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:43:49
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:43:49
karenstansfield
Oof.
00:43:54
Mannikka Rosa
um whatever right and to this time yeah to um be a part of this special ceremony that i want to hold with my family and share and celebrate with the people who are closest to me i should be able to have autonomy over that i shouldn't be you know anyway i don't know if i'm going off
00:43:56
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:43:57
karenstansfield
Your time. Yeah.
00:44:10
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:44:11
Stephanie Jay
he
00:44:14
karenstansfield
Dang, Manny, at this stage in our lives, are you getting pressure from...
00:44:16
Mannikka Rosa
and No, no, I'm just saying, like, I'm thinking of like, you know, I'm thinking back at like, people who invited me to their wedding, who like, I didn't, I hadn't talked to in like, you know, decades, but, you know,
00:44:20
karenstansfield
Okay.
00:44:22
Stephanie Jay
you
00:44:29
karenstansfield
Now, yeah, now you're questioning, like, is there an obligation or something?
00:44:33
Mannikka Rosa
like, how far back are we going?
00:44:34
Stephanie Jay
who
00:44:34
Mannikka Rosa
Like, what is the, you know?
00:44:35
karenstansfield
Yeah. Ooh, that's tricky. Yeah, yeah.
00:44:37
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So anyway, I just, yeah, right?
00:44:39
Stephanie Jay
That was even tricky for my wedding. like Like my bridal party.
00:44:42
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:44:44
Stephanie Jay
That was hard.
00:44:45
karenstansfield
Oof.
00:44:46
karenstansfield
Yeah, the the the kids these days.
00:44:46
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:44:49
Stephanie Jay
look
00:44:49
karenstansfield
The kids these days with like ah this new trend of like no, ah I don't know if it's a trend, but like you don't have the table with the bridal party and like you're not creating that like clear line of like these are my best friends and then there's the rest of you.
00:44:49
Mannikka Rosa
that
00:44:59
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
00:45:06
karenstansfield
I think that's so smart. Like who, why did we do that?
00:45:07
Stephanie Jay
Smart, yeah.
00:45:09
karenstansfield
Why why did we make it a visual representation?
00:45:09
Stephanie Jay
I don't know.
00:45:13
Stephanie Jay
Cause that one could've been. Uh-huh.
00:45:16
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:45:16
karenstansfield
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:16
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah,
00:45:17
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh.
00:45:17
karenstansfield
It's like, where do you draw the line?
00:45:18
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:45:18
karenstansfield
It's not it. Yeah.
00:45:21
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh.
00:45:21
karenstansfield
Anyways, weddings, man, that's a whole nother episode.
00:45:21
Mannikka Rosa
so this is a group.
00:45:23
Stephanie Jay
That's a whole little we used to drop this down.
00:45:25
Mannikka Rosa
It's ambi, ambiguile, ambiguileous.
00:45:30
karenstansfield
ambiguous.
00:45:31
karenstansfield
Yes. ambiguous. Yes.
00:45:31
Stephanie Jay
ambiguous.
00:45:34
Mannikka Rosa
There are so many, I just think that this is like such a nuanced subject matter, you know?
00:45:34
Stephanie Jay
And thank you.
00:45:34
karenstansfield
Go on.
00:45:36
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:45:42
karenstansfield
It is, it is. Well, and even just through this conversation, like we have taken a different path than I was contemplating um when when I was preparing for it.
00:45:45
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:45:53
karenstansfield
And I think that's fascinating. like I like i like that the perspective you've taken, Manny, of you know at what point do these become less frequent or non-existent?
00:46:03
Mannikka Rosa
Okay.
00:46:04
karenstansfield
I'm sure there's people in you know in their lives who have had friendship breakups at this stage for very good reason, but it's definitely less often at this stage than when we were younger.
00:46:09
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:46:16
karenstansfield
um And it's a good reminder to me to like put into words for my kiddo of you know, how life is going to go and to have proper expectations and to be able to mourn the loss of those friends that that he's sad to lose and that's okay, you know, and ah that is a little bit of life and you're going to experience these losses.
00:46:23
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:46:38
karenstansfield
but to like honor the time that you had with those friends to make sure that you are grateful for like the things about you that they've given you because we all learn from our friends as much as i like to believe i'm going to be the sole influence on my child ah he's getting much more influence from third parties you know and so i think
00:46:54
Mannikka Rosa
and
00:46:56
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:46:59
karenstansfield
It's just a good reminder for me to be mindful of that with him and with his development and make sure that um he has better tools than I had you know in in preparing for those things.
00:47:06
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah,
00:47:09
karenstansfield
so
00:47:10
Stephanie Jay
I think something Manny said that re resonated with me too was the um Like you you're talking about the investment in like you said something about like when you're younger that it Feeling that you have but you don't really know like how to manage um that and um and I just feel like um I feel like ah I've said this phrase before um Now that I'm 40 or like now, you know now that I'm older now that I'm more mature, right?
00:47:10
Mannikka Rosa
yeah.
00:47:37
Stephanie Jay
um and so that kind of How you put it made me realize that when I started working as a teacher and I had all these people who were my age and we should be friends, we're all friends, but I i was kind of like discerning. I had the wherewithal and the like psychological development to know that that's not really a friend.
00:47:54
Mannikka Rosa
me
00:47:58
Stephanie Jay
And, but it doesn't mean that I couldn't chitchat and we couldn't, you know, share stories of our students in our classrooms and like, you know, surface level, you know, Oh my gosh, um my daughter just started saying no and stop.
00:47:58
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:48:10
Stephanie Jay
And I can tell those are not deeply personal stories that I can still communicate, but know that they're not going to get beyond a certain point with me.
00:48:15
Mannikka Rosa
Mm hmm.
00:48:19
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:48:20
Stephanie Jay
And um when you're younger. you don't have the wherewithal to say I'm going to draw a line here but we can still be in communication with one another and so when you're talking about like when you're what coaching or when we're kind of supporting our kids as they head forward it's almost like we have to know that they're not going to know
00:48:31
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:48:39
Mannikka Rosa
Mm hmm.
00:48:42
Stephanie Jay
how to and just be prepared to support them in that but we can't tell them not to make all the same thestep mistakes because they will get to a point where they know what's a true friend and what's not and so we're gonna have to like painfully watch them like divulge personal relation you know stories and then that get blast all over school and whatever is gonna happen but like be there to be like yeah when they go through
00:48:42
Mannikka Rosa
Mm hmm.
00:48:47
karenstansfield
Right. Yeah. Yes.
00:49:03
karenstansfield
yeah Yeah, and just be there to yeah support them when they go through it. that is a yeah That's a real hard part of parenting.
00:49:12
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:49:12
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah.
00:49:12
karenstansfield
um I'm sure we'll cover more parenting topics in the future. The one thing I wanted to kind of leave with um is a teaser for a future episode. So as I was preparing for this one, there there's a number of articles out there that talk about um like the impact that social media is having on giving us terminology for our own mental needs. So, you know, self-care, you hear a lot about self-care. And while this is great that we're much more conscious of this, it's like we are going way too far down that journey. And and there was a quote in one of the articles I'll link about casting our friends
00:49:52
karenstansfield
as the antagonists of our own self-improvement journey.
00:49:56
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:49:56
Mannikka Rosa
Me
00:49:56
karenstansfield
And so that takes us into you know this toxic self-care trend, which we'll cover in a future episode. But I thought that was fascinating about we we have to find the right balance of like making sure we're not antagonizing everybody in our orbit on our, quote, journey to self-improvement.
00:50:03
Mannikka Rosa
too.
00:50:14
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:50:14
Mannikka Rosa
Right.
00:50:14
karenstansfield
So, little teaser for a future episode. Before we wrap up, any confessions from this discussion that we should wrap up with?
00:50:16
Mannikka Rosa
Love it.
00:50:25
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:50:25
Mannikka Rosa
um So I have two. One um is we don't have a clear definition in society of an acquaintance and a friend.
00:50:37
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:50:37
Mannikka Rosa
And until we um begin to define that, this is going to spiral in my head and probably keep me up at night.
00:50:37
karenstansfield
oh
00:50:48
Mannikka Rosa
the
00:50:48
karenstansfield
Sorry girl.
00:50:51
Mannikka Rosa
The other is that while I thought this was going to be a conversation about friend breakups, this is actually a conversation about grief. And that grief is not solely about someone dying. It's about a lost placement.
00:51:06
Stephanie Jay
hmm. Mm hmm.
00:51:08
Mannikka Rosa
And that placement can be a memory of something of ah a time, a particular time that you had with someone that you were not going to be able to relive or get back. And so maybe it isn't about the breakup. It's just about how we comfort ourselves in those moments of grief and that grief can happen at any moment.
00:51:25
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:51:28
Mannikka Rosa
And as a society, if we're talking about mental health, maybe the first step is to acknowledge our grief.
00:51:28
karenstansfield
who
00:51:31
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:51:35
karenstansfield
ah That ah reminds me of the Catherine Waters article. she says ah She uses the term hug, ah H-U-G, and it's honor your feelings, unplug from the distractions, and grieve the loss. So actually just like making the space to feel those feelings and process them you know before moving on.
00:51:50
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:51:57
karenstansfield
So I love that. I think the grief thing came up a lot as I was thinking about these breakups. And I feel like ah as a confessional, I feel like I almost thought when I was young that I shouldn't like, even if I'm the one who is like, I i don't want to be friends with this person anymore. I wasn't allowed to feel sad about that because I was the one making that call.
00:52:20
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:52:20
karenstansfield
And I don't know, I probably just put that on myself, but um it's nice to have this discussion and realize like even if I've decided that that person is not someone I want to continue to invest in, I can still feel sad that I don't have them around any anymore that I don't have that friendship I once had.
00:52:33
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:52:38
karenstansfield
And so again, just, you you know, a good reminder for me as a parent to like, make sure that Maxwell knows he's allowed to feel his feelings, even if he is feeling like he he caused them in some way.
00:52:39
Stephanie Jay
hmm.
00:52:44
Mannikka Rosa
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:52:55
Stephanie Jay
it.
00:52:56
karenstansfield
Amazing. Well, Thank you, yes, for this therapy session this morning.
00:52:56
Mannikka Rosa
Great combo, baby.
00:53:00
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. That's beautiful.
00:53:02
Mannikka Rosa
Yeah, I'm going to cancel my 12 o'clock.
00:53:05
karenstansfield
And we will see you all next time.