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Dance Series Part 3: Thunder Struck, DCC Continued
50 Plays5 months ago
Welcome to episode 9 of the You Can Call Me Karen Podcast! This week we will wrap up our dance series with a continued discussion of the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Tune in to hear expert insight from Registered Dietician, owner and founder of Aligned Nutrition, Erica Butler. Together, we will share personal stories, and a critical analysis of how the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders reflect larger cultural conversations about appearance, identity, and the toxic influence of unrealistic beauty standards in the entertainment industry.
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
The Ugly Process of Turning Beautiful Women Into Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders
Get more information from our guest host, Erica Butler by visiting her website www.alignednutrition.com and follow her @alignednutrition on Instagram.
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
Unveiling the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders' Image
00:00:20
Manni
If your algorithm looks anything like mine, then you know that not a day in July went by where you could go without seeing a thunderstruck kick line being impersonated by a Dallas cowboy cheerleader fangirl. Whether it was the rigorous auditions, the unforgettable game day moments, or the personal stories of these dancing athletes, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders showed us why they earned the nickname of America's Sweethearts. And while we truly couldn't get enough of this Netflix documentary, we also couldn't help but wonder, are these polished faces hiding something underneath their big hair? We discuss this and more on today's episode of You Can Call Me Caring.
Meet the Hosts and Special Guest Erica Butler
00:01:15
Manni
Hello, and welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast, where we discuss events from the world around us in an effort to highlight our similarities rather than our differences. I am Manny Rosa, and I am joined by two of my dearest friends, Stephanie J. Hey, Steph, and Karen Horwitz. Hi, Karen.
00:01:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hello, hello.
00:01:38
Manni
um And let's make that three of my dearest friends because today we are continuing our conversation with the incomparable founder, CEO, and intuitive eating baddie from Align Nutrition, Erica Butler.
00:01:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I knew that was coming.
00:01:59
Manni
Hi, Erica.
00:02:00
Erica Butler
Hi, thanks for having me back.
00:02:01
Manni
yeah Yes, thank you. We're so happy that you are here joining
Understanding Body Image with Dietician Erica Butler
00:02:07
Manni
us. For those of you who missed last week's episode, last week's episode, um we're mad at you, but um go back and listen. um But Erika, for our listeners who are just joining in, can you tell us today a little bit about you and ah what you do for a living?
00:02:26
Erica Butler
Yes. So I'm a dietician and in my practice I work with clients with disordered eating, eating disorders, body image concerns. So we're really, I work with a lot of athletes. We get into the science of nutrition. I provide counseling on how to fuel for your life, find pleasure and just balance around food and and really what that looks like for any individual that's in front of me. And I'm excited to be here talking about these topics today.
00:02:53
Manni
Thank you.
00:02:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yay!
Deconstructing Cheerleader Portrayals in Media
00:02:55
Manni
Yes, you are just so incredible and you've provided all of us with such wonderful knowledge as we navigate food, eating, body image.
00:03:06
Manni
So we are so glad that you are here today, um especially because we're continuing our series on the DCC Netflix series, where we're gonna be taking a peek underneath the pom-poms.
00:03:17
Manni
in an effort to discover, there's gonna be a lot of dance analogies here. Are are these gemstones and pristine white boots all glitz and glamor? Or is this American dream more of a nightmare? Before we get into all of that, we have to talk about who you call in Karen this week. um So ah Karen, I heard you have a story, but Erika,
00:03:46
Manni
Since you are like Kelsey from DCC and now seasoned to bet on the You Can Call Me Karen pod, we invite you to share with us who you calling Karen this week.
Tales of 'Karen' Behavior: A Dry Cleaner Incident
00:04:02
Erica Butler
My Karen's story was quite recent. It happened two weeks ago in fact. I was much like Ari, I am a short gal. And so I was picking up some alterations that I had done at the dry cleaner. And when you walk into the dry cleaner, um there is like a checkout area and then there's a door that buzzes you up to the area where you pick up your alterations. So I walk in, Karen walks in behind me.
00:04:29
Erica Butler
And there's a woman being helped at the counter in front of us.
00:04:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Karen.
00:04:32
Erica Butler
And so I know the process. I know that you end up going upstairs to the alterations and apparently she did too. But being the polite person that I am, I wait for the woman to finish helping the person in front of me.
00:04:45
Erica Butler
Karen behind me shouts out, I need to go up to alterations. And I said, Oh, is this how this works? And so I followed her upstairs. You know, at at any point while we're walking upstairs, when we realized that we're both there for alteration, she could have let me go first because I was there before her, but she did not.
00:05:05
Manni
Right.
00:05:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ugh.
00:05:06
Erica Butler
So we get upstairs to the woman to pick up her alterations, and she is, you know, hey, I'm here to pick up my alterations, um but I need to try them on first.
00:05:06
Manni
Hm.
00:05:16
Erica Butler
And so the woman politely tells her, oh, you're picking them up, you pick them up downstairs.
00:05:20
Manni
Hm.
00:05:22
Erica Butler
So I'm standing behind her, totally satisfied.
00:05:23
Manni
Karma, bitch.
00:05:26
Erica Butler
um But this is where the Karen aspect comes in. So this woman essentially cut me in line. She was rude to the person who was working there. And then she turns around, makes eye contact with me, rolls her eyes like a knowing like, oh, these people, you know, like ah the, oh, yes, yes.
00:05:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, like you're in on this with her. a
00:05:47
Manni
a
00:05:49
Erica Butler
And um I just stared right through her and at her at the same time, if that makes sense. um
00:05:56
Manni
um It does, because you can do that. Like, guys, don't do, don't let Erika be, don't be the one, okay?
00:06:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Don't cross Erica.
00:06:05
Erica Butler
It was just so much audacity on her part. You know, you caught me.
00:06:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:06:09
Erica Butler
I made it clear to you that what you did was rude, and you continue to do it.
00:06:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:06:13
Manni
yeah.
00:06:15
Erica Butler
And then now you want to connect with me over this moment.
00:06:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:06:18
Manni
Right. Yeah.
00:06:19
Erica Butler
So yeah, just
00:06:20
Manni
that That makes me think of like when we talk on this podcast of like, you know, a lot of what I i believe to be Karen behavior is targeted at people in service, and you know, and doing a service for you.
00:06:33
Manni
And that's what I think is like the like entitlement is that she wanted to like kind of nudge you of like these people, right?
00:06:37
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:06:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:06:40
Manni
You know, and it's like, what, huh? You know, like that is like just this like air of like, oh, I can't believe like I came here and these people are not catering to my every need, you know, and it's like they're doing their job.
00:06:45
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:06:56
Erica Butler
And if she had waited for the person to help us downstairs, she would have been told, Oh, you pick up alterations here. And she wouldn't have tried to, you know, get ahead of the system by marching upstairs in front of me.
00:07:02
Manni
Right.
00:07:09
Erica Butler
And it just, it felt like your time is apparently more important than mine. You need to get out of here.
00:07:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:07:13
Erica Butler
You need to go about it this way. Um, your time is more important than everyone else here. It just, yeah, it was.
00:07:19
Stephanie Jay
Oh my god, when you said that there's
00:07:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So entitled.
00:07:22
Stephanie Jay
that there's this episode of, um um a obviously I quote friends a lot and Sex and the City, and there's an episode of Sex and the City where Carrie Rocha was walking down the street and she's having a bad day and someone brushes past her and she goes, you're so busy, you're so busy.
00:07:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
There's a theme here.
00:07:41
Stephanie Jay
And that pops into my head when someone like you know zooms past you on this on the road or cuts in front of somebody in line, like, you're so busy.
00:07:54
Manni
Yes. I'm going to have, I'm going to start tracking that now. That's a amazing.
00:08:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well that, ah what are we, dry cleaner Karen sounds like a real piece.
00:08:02
Manni
Thank you.
00:08:06
Manni
Try cleaner plan.
00:08:06
Erica Butler
Yes.
00:08:08
Manni
Alteration, Karen.
00:08:09
Erica Butler
Yes.
00:08:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
There you go.
00:08:10
Stephanie Jay
he
00:08:12
Manni
um Speaking of caring, yes, we'll keep track.
00:08:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We gotta to start labeling them.
00:08:17
Manni
ah Speaking of caring,
Comedy Show Disruptions and Etiquette
00:08:19
Manni
Hello, you co-host.
00:08:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hi.
00:08:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I have um comedy show, Karen.
00:08:24
Manni
yeah
00:08:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I actually have comedy show, Karen and Chad. It was on fire. So um Bob and I love comedy. So for our 15th anniversary, I got us tickets to go see Ronnie Chang. If you're familiar with him, he's on The Daily Show. He is so funny. And I was super excited. I got this really good tickets. Went, um had a whole like night at the show. He was, ah he was doing his, you know, his comedy thing.
00:09:00
Manni
His bid, his act, his performance.
00:09:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
go
00:09:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
his routine.
00:09:03
Erica Butler
His show.
00:09:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I don't act. Act, I think, is what I was looking for. um And then all of a sudden, he like stopped and he started talking to the people in the front row.
00:09:08
Manni
ah
00:09:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And at first you were like, maybe he's doing like crowd work. you know Maybe this is part of his bit. He's like, um I'm sorry, am I interrupting your conversation?
00:09:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
He was like talking to a couple of people in the front row. and And you thought, like oh, you know, maybe he's gonna, yeah, engage the audience. And then he was like, no, seriously, like, I, ah I am here for a lot of people and you can't stop talking for an hour while I do my set.
00:09:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And he it it like, and then all of a sudden you realize like, oh, this is real, like, he's really upset.
00:09:53
Manni
We're in an improv show.
00:09:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so then he, He kind of said it. He he kind of he definitely got their attention. hes um For those that don't know him, he's from Malaysia. I think his family is originally from China. And so he plays to like a really big Asian crowd. like He does a lot of bits about like which countries you're from. And so he like kind of made a joke out of it and was like, which country are you from? And I think they were Korean and he did a whole bit about Koreans and whatever. And then he tried to like move past it and like one minute later he went back to them and he was like, seriously, you guys, I am doing a show for thousands of people who paid to be here and listen to me, not you.
00:10:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and he And then he like called security down and like security came and talked to them.
00:10:39
Manni
Hi! Get out!
00:10:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It was crazy. And Bob and I were so upset for Rami Chang, like for him, because he was like, yeah, he's up here trying to do an act that's like making everybody laugh.
00:10:52
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:10:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And he is like being clearly distracted by these people. and so security came down and he kind of like you know fumbled his way to get like back into his routine and it was fine but then it felt like the whole fucking night there was like people like wooing and like i don't know if they thought they were helping him like yeah We love you, Ronnie." Somebody fucking yelled, we love you, Ronnie, in the middle of this act.
00:11:24
Manni
Hmm.
00:11:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It was infuriated. It was just Karen's galore. All the Karens came out to this damn show to heckle this poor comedian who's putting himself out there in front of all of these people.
00:11:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And he was like he he said something about, like people pay to see me talk. not any of you.
00:11:43
Manni
Right.
00:11:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
like You all shut up.
00:11:45
Manni
Hmm.
00:11:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I thought it was so good of him to say that. But yeah, it was like, and this one man kept like, hollering from behind us. We were so we left the show like, what the hell is going on in Chicago?
00:11:58
Manni
What just happened? Yeah.
00:12:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, he's never gonna want to come back. It made it was
00:12:00
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:12:03
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:12:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, anyways, so Roddy Chang, I'm sorry that Chicago audience sucked that night, but we loved you and please come back.
00:12:10
Stephanie Jay
which
00:12:15
Manni
Oh my God.
00:12:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And that was, it was just a room full of Karen and Chads.
00:12:16
Manni
The etiquette. etiquette of like going to a show and being in and not knowing what to do.
00:12:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Seriously, like laugh, clap, that is it.
00:12:26
Manni
I don't know.
00:12:29
Manni
Right.
00:12:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah You are done after that.
00:12:30
Manni
Put your phone down.
00:12:30
Stephanie Jay
okay
00:12:32
Manni
Be present. Yeah.
00:12:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Shut up and listen.
00:12:33
Manni
You're not entitled to talk. Yeah.
00:12:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, I don't know what that was.
00:12:36
Manni
Wow.
00:12:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But anyway, it's poor Ronnie.
00:12:39
Manni
well
00:12:39
Stephanie Jay
I feel Ronnie because as a teacher when these kids be talking when I'm trying to talk.
00:12:45
Manni
I'm like, excuse me.
00:12:48
Stephanie Jay
It's so oh distracting and it like it takes you like it especially not as I'm getting older too like I legit forget what I was saying and so I don't know ive I just I feel for you Ronnie like that's
00:12:49
Manni
This is where they pay me the big bucks.
00:12:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, oh.
00:13:04
Manni
oh
00:13:08
Manni
Yeah.
00:13:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. And you could tell he did have a little bit of that where he was like out of his routine.
00:13:12
Stephanie Jay
you You lose your train of thought.
00:13:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. And then he had to kind of like figure out where he was.
00:13:15
Manni
Yeah, you lose the rhythm.
00:13:17
Stephanie Jay
The rhythm.
00:13:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it was such, it was a good show too.
00:13:19
Erica Butler
nothing.
00:13:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I just felt like it would have been better if people would shut, shut their damn mouths. So anyho that's my Karen.
00:13:28
Manni
ah well Thank you. And listeners, this is what it's like when you unleash your inner Karen.
00:13:47
Manni
So let's get into it. um We cannot deny that Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders made such an impact on the psyche of the American millennial this summer. I mean, I desperately tried not to watch this series and somehow I caved. And then once I was in, well, I think I benched it in less than a week, which if you are a mother of three kids, you know that that is like borderline
Critiquing Cheerleader Documentaries: Ideals vs. Reality
00:14:12
Manni
insanity.
00:14:13
Manni
So as I was watching, I kept texting. I didn't know anybody else who had watched it as like recently as I did, except for our guest, Erika. And um at that time, I remember like texting you, Erika, and being like, oh my God, I'm like so obsessed.
00:14:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Thank you.
00:14:28
Manni
But also, like I hate myself for loving this so much. you know um So it's kind of where I want to begin today. like Our show is intended to bring in popular culture trends and media stories because, well, as my nieces put it, we are such millennials.
00:14:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh
00:14:47
Manni
That's what they said when they listened to our first episode. um
00:14:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
my God.
00:14:52
Manni
So sticking to the purpose and meaning of our show, it's obvious to me that pop culture icons historically come with a level of tragedy. that exists underneath the surface. You know, I'm thinking about our love, MJ, Steph, Brittany, Whitney Houston.
00:15:09
Manni
Um, et cetera. So when we get this breakage of the fourth wall, like we did in the docu-series of America's sweethearts, what is a healthy way to engage with the celebrity while also understanding there is something nefarious going on that we can't always see? And so, um, before I get you guys this response, I want to read apart from this Vox news article, the ugly process of turning beautiful women into Dallas cowboy cheerleaders. And I just want to read a little blurb and blurb.
00:15:39
Manni
Blurp. Blurb.
00:15:43
Stephanie Jay
It's a pin on some sizzler.
00:15:45
Manni
ok it's something Something that comes out of my son's butthole.
00:15:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh my gosh
00:15:51
Manni
Okay, I'm going to eat a little feast here and then I'm going to get your reaction. so It says the punishing system that creates these picture perfect performers is built on a pyramid of harmful ideals.
00:16:07
Manni
Sky high expectations, regressive beauty standards, dangerous physical demands, seductive but false ideas of sisterhood and exploitative working conditions.
00:16:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:16:19
Manni
Throughout the show, we witness firsthand behavior that's usually only brought to light when someone decides to blow a whistle on a sorority, a fraternity, or a cult. The type of mon manipulation and skewed thinking that's usually never discussed until the traumatic ordeal is over.
00:16:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No.
00:16:35
Manni
The most compelling thing about America's sweetheart, it isn't that this behavior exists, it's that it's all caught proudly on camera.
00:16:45
Stephanie Jay
And.
00:16:45
Manni
So Erika, I'm going to start with you, because I sent you this article. And um this quote in particular was one that you ah reacted to when I sent you that article. So um given you know this what we've talked about and the undertones of the show, what are your reactions to that?
00:17:00
Manni
Or is there any moment that you were, while watching the show, you were like, they put that in there?
00:17:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:17:07
Manni
You were just kind of like, wow.
00:17:08
Erica Butler
Yeah. That's what's interesting about it with um when the docu-series was put together, they, the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders as an organization, they gave editorial rights to the Netflix crew. So I wonder what they think.
00:17:26
Erica Butler
um because I think they were proud of what they were showing.
00:17:26
Manni
and
00:17:29
Erica Butler
And I don't think, I don't know if there's a lack of awareness or just that, you know, the way the show starts out with um ah the monologue of, what is her name again?
00:17:30
Manni
Yeah.
00:17:43
Erica Butler
Oh my God, why am I blanking?
00:17:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Kelly, the coach.
00:17:46
Erica Butler
The owner's daughter, um sure Cheryl.
00:17:47
Manni
Oh, yeah, I think it's Cheryl. Sounds about right.
00:17:51
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:17:52
Erica Butler
But yeah, her monologue, um
00:17:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
She looks like a Cheryl.
00:17:55
Erica Butler
Yeah, I can't believe I forgot her name. um But her monologue about, you know, sisterhood, it's a privilege to be here, you know, legacy, and um tradition, and it's almost like she doesn't realize what she's setting up.
00:18:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:18:08
Erica Butler
um Because I yeah, there's this
00:18:13
Erica Butler
There's this way that the women are being used for profit, the way, you know, Kelly and Judy are proud that they've become a profitable entity, but it's being sold back to them as privilege. You're lucky to be here. So it just, yeah, it's an interesting, you know, femininity, women's work, capitalism, it just is, you I don't think it's unique to know, this docu-series and the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders, but it really highlighted so many issues that I think we face today as women.
00:18:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up, the because that's not something we talked about last time, but that contradiction of in one breath they're saying,
00:19:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We have made this a profitable, I think multimillion dollar organization. And then literally moments later, it's a privilege for the dancers to be here. This is not a full time, full paying job. They all need to have other jobs in order to make ends meet. And it's like, wait, you want them to literally give up their identity to be privileged to be part of this group
Cheerleader Compensation: A Discussion on Pay Disparities
00:19:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and do it without making money?
00:19:30
Manni
Right.
00:19:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I just, it's infuriating, especially considering what those football players make.
00:19:35
Manni
yeah
00:19:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And they, by the way, deserve to make a lot of money. They are putting their bodies at risk every weekend, often getting themselves injured, ah you know losing their jobs, whatever.
00:19:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
They should make money, but that doesn't mean the girls, like the cheerleaders shouldn't also make money.
00:19:54
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:19:54
Manni
Who are also, by the way,
00:19:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
when they're making you lots of money.
00:19:57
Manni
who are also, by the way, risking their bodies. I mean, the amount of surgeries that those dancers are going to need from doing those drop kicks is, we saw it, you saw the girl wanna, and they don't get insurance like the players do, right?
00:20:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, yes.
00:20:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:20:09
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:20:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, the one sister.
00:20:12
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:20:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:20:14
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:20:14
Manni
They're getting paid minimum wage. So their body damage stuff, they're going to have to pay for out of pocket without insurance.
00:20:19
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:20:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, my gosh, it's infuriating.
00:20:25
Manni
Yeah, Steph, what about you?
00:20:25
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:20:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hashtag feminism.
00:20:27
Manni
What was something that was probably caught on camera that you were like, what the?
00:20:32
Stephanie Jay
Proudly caught on camera. um
00:20:36
Stephanie Jay
I'm
00:20:37
Stephanie Jay
What'd
00:20:38
Stephanie Jay
You stumped me. um Yeah, you stumped me. Come back to me on this one.
Religious Undertones in Cheerleader Narratives
00:20:43
Manni
Okay, I have one that we didn't talk about last episode that I was thinking of, um the church.
00:20:43
Stephanie Jay
Sorry.
00:20:48
Manni
I couldn't believe that, the prayer.
00:20:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:20:52
Manni
everybody gathered here let's pray for the dallas cowboy football team right in like the uh we i sent you guys a video uh karen and stuff of like this um term spiritual malpractice like that is what i felt like i experienced in that moment of like
00:20:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:21:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:21:13
Manni
the the connection to prayer, faith, religion that is surrounded around this football team. And maybe that's like Southern culture. And I'm just, I don't understand because that's not like, you know, and I've my i've been in church services where the preacher like jokingly talks about, Lord, these commanders are, you know, like, let me get, let me end this service quickly so we can get to watch the football game, you know, like jokingly, but like to really,
00:21:34
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:21:43
Manni
open up the sermon and most of the service being centered and I again I don't know if that was like they did that because Netflix was going to be there but also like as a spiritual entity like why would you do that so I just found that to be like and just jarring I was like this is a church service are you I don't I don't know
00:21:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Because of the show.
00:22:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:22:05
Manni
If that is a place that I would go back and visit, if that was how they centered the spirituality and the spiritual teachings for their God loves Dallas.
00:22:15
Stephanie Jay
And you're talking about the guy that's like, God loves Dallas.
00:22:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:22:21
Manni
Yes.
00:22:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:22:22
Manni
Yes. But he doesn't love New Jersey and he doesn't love Ohio and he doesn't love Illinois.
00:22:24
Stephanie Jay
Right. right
00:22:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:22:28
Manni
Okay.
00:22:28
Stephanie Jay
right
00:22:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, Dallas, ah a man made drawing on a map, like it doesn't, it's not even like a real boundary.
00:22:29
Manni
yeah
00:22:30
Stephanie Jay
Right.
00:22:37
Manni
okay
00:22:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh,
Sexualized Image vs. Promoted Values
00:22:39
Manni
yeah yeah
00:22:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I mean, listen, I'm gonna, you are like the religious ah undertones here were super strange to me.
00:22:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
The like emphasis on the one um rookie And I'm blanking on all of their names. Thank you, Reese.
00:22:58
Stephanie Jay
Reese, yeah.
00:23:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And like her um relationship to the church, which like to each their own, if that's the community that you identify with, if those are your beliefs, I am not going to judge you on that.
00:23:01
Manni
Yeah, that.
00:23:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
What is odd to me is everything that the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders, like on its complete surface stand for and like the hyper-sexualized dancing, the very small costumes, the like need to I don't know please all of the male audience members or female audience members and then like and then being like but we're we're so godly It was very jarring to me, that contradiction.
00:23:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It was very strange in the fact that nobody acknowledged that contradiction. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but that felt weird.
00:23:57
Manni
Well, Reese was definite.
00:23:57
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:23:59
Manni
It will be interesting to see how season two goes, especially because an alumni from Ohio State is going to be on the team this year and hopefully we get to see more of her.
00:24:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Whoop, whoop.
00:24:08
Manni
Abby Summers, um but I think going back to our like the look, the conversation from last week of like the look and you're chosen, Reese was chosen for a reason.
00:24:19
Manni
The coaches put Reese to be one of the like through line stars in all the episodes. They did that. They did that.
00:24:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:24:27
Manni
Netflix probably said who would be the one to follow around and they said Reese because they wanted to put forth this pure,
00:24:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:24:31
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:24:37
Manni
um innocent figure who could represent the face of the organization. That's why she got to do the flower thing for Dolly Parton and nobody else got to.
00:24:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:24:47
Manni
And that like brings me back to that quote of like the um of the sisterhood, the false ideas of sisterhood. Those kind of things are actually done to pi pit the dancers against one another.
00:24:57
Stephanie Jay
Oh.
00:25:00
Manni
That happened a lot when I danced on the calves.
00:25:02
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:25:03
Manni
And so, um I don't know, I just think that like they that was intent she was an intentional choice, in my opinion, of being somebody who they wanted to like show as a representative of like, this is Texas, big hair, cute button eyes, like like booming personality, godly, we're getting married,
00:25:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Got Godly.
00:25:24
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm. Southern accent.
00:25:24
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:25:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Married. Yeah.
00:25:28
Manni
Yeah, we're getting married, so you don't have to worry about my sexuality.
00:25:28
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:25:31
Manni
And I was also going to say in step five, be curious about how you feel about this. then The little outfits are OK when they're on white women.
00:25:42
Stephanie Jay
ah Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:43
Manni
when it's When it's a when it's a ah ah load of black women in those little tiny outfits, it's all of a sudden disgusting, shameful.
00:25:52
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:25:53
Manni
But when it's a group of tiny white women, it's OK.
00:25:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mmm.
00:25:57
Stephanie Jay
I feel like the uniform fittings, like that whole experience that they were probably showing and like the girls walking in and like, you know, you you could feel like they're like taking closing their eyes, like taking deep breath, you know, and like, you know, holding their stomach it's in and then they're talking about what's fleshy and what's hanging out and like, you know,
00:26:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:26:18
Stephanie Jay
And then you know in the interviews, they're saying, well, there's only three sizes that you could possibly wear. And I'm just thinking of all these different body types that are just immediately excluded from being DCCE simply because of the uniforms. And then to go back to what you were saying about um just like that religious aspect with Reese and um that like in the sexualization of like you know the the cleavage and the top the knot and the shorts and everything and it's like um a contradictory to this wholesome america sweetheart messaging
00:26:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
okay
00:26:59
Stephanie Jay
Um, and be it is so exclusive. Um, you know, just thinking about, you know, if we, in, even in my prime as, you know, as a, when I was a decent dancer and stuff, my body would never fit into a a uniform that looked like that in my best shape.
00:27:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No.
00:27:17
Stephanie Jay
Um, you know, it's just, you, this exclusive.
00:27:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:27:22
Stephanie Jay
So.
00:27:24
Erica Butler
I saw the religion show up around the appearances to with like, the men had to hold football, so they weren't like touching the women.
00:27:31
Stephanie Jay
one Yeah.
00:27:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:27:33
Erica Butler
And it's like, we don't hold men accountable for their actions.
00:27:36
Manni
Wow.
00:27:36
Erica Butler
It's like, just hold this which felt very keep sweet and obey look a certain way, you know, be submissive, be here, be available.
00:27:40
Manni
Mm
00:27:41
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:27:44
Manni
-hmm.
00:27:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:27:48
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:27:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:27:49
Manni
Yes.
00:27:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Be available, but not too available. Like it's like, this is a very small, ah whole, uh, needle that they're trying to thread there and unsuccessfully in my opinion.
00:27:52
Erica Butler
Right.
00:27:53
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:27:55
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:27:58
Stephanie Jay
here
00:27:59
Erica Butler
yeah
00:27:59
Manni
You're bringing to a point that we didn't talk about last time, and I didn't put in into what I wanted to talk about in my notes. But there was an instance on the show that was caught on camera, speaking of like what they portrayed on camera.
00:28:12
Manni
And it was when doy Dolly Parton was a part of the halftime show.
00:28:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
have
00:28:17
Manni
And the coach Kelly was so excited about all the like notoriety that they were receiving, that when it came to her attention, that one of her dancers had just been assaulted.
00:28:27
Manni
She was like on her phone. They say this in the article. She's just like on her phone, like, huh? And then it's almost like someone in the background was like, like pointing to the camera, like, get up.
00:28:36
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:28:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Pretend to care, pretend to care.
00:28:40
Manni
Yeah. And then that, right.
00:28:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah well
00:28:43
Manni
Pretend to care. Pretend to care. And so to your point, Erica, like you do almost wonder about how they talk about the invitation of men and what to do when that attention is put on you, even though it feels uncomfortable and how you hand it.
00:29:03
Manni
It just makes you wonder how they're coached through that experience and what that does to them.
00:29:07
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:29:09
Manni
like Again, there are 20 20 to ages. Well, wait, Reese was like just some of them are just out of high school or no. Can you audition just out of high school?
00:29:17
Stephanie Jay
No, college.
00:29:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, out of college, mostly, I think they were mostly like 21, 22.
00:29:19
Manni
Out of college.
00:29:19
Erica Butler
There was one who was out of high school.
00:29:20
Manni
Okay.
00:29:22
Stephanie Jay
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:22
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:29:23
Stephanie Jay
Oh wait, the youngest one was 19.
00:29:23
Manni
There was one who was out of high school, though, right?
00:29:26
Stephanie Jay
I think it was the girls.
00:29:26
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:29:26
Manni
Right.
00:29:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
One was, yeah.
00:29:26
Manni
The Jersey girl.
00:29:28
Erica Butler
I think mad mad.
00:29:28
Manni
Okay.
00:29:30
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:29:31
Manni
Okay.
00:29:31
Erica Butler
yeah
00:29:32
Manni
But yeah, so they're so young. They don't, they've never happened to them before. And, um, it just is like, this is their first real, uh, exposure to that kind of predatory behavior.
00:29:43
Manni
And it just makes me mean wonder if they're.
00:29:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:29:46
Erica Butler
And there's no protection for them. Like when Kelsey's car had gotten air tagged, it's like your eyebrows need to look this way, but oops, like, sorry that that happened to you.
00:29:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
There's none.
00:29:56
Erica Butler
There's nothing we can do.
00:29:57
Stephanie Jay
Yeah, and like when they send them on, um they send them on, like ah appearances, like who goes with them, or like, you know, on their own, they hop in their own card.
00:29:57
Manni
Right. Yeah.
00:29:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's true.
00:30:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, they're like just showing up on their own.
00:30:06
Manni
Right.
00:30:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I thought that too.
00:30:09
Manni
Yeah.
00:30:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's like you... Yeah, you for you force them to wear these very revealing ah uniforms and you force them to put their hair and their makeup in a certain way and you want the the male audiences to lust for them.
00:30:12
Manni
well
00:30:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And then when you send them out into the world, you're like, good luck to you.
00:30:35
Manni
yeah
00:30:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I just so like sent a mob after you and I'm not going to do anything to protect you. Like that struck me when they're showing up to those events and they're both pulling up in their cars and like hopping up and being like, hey, you know, like it's just us out in the world.
00:30:48
Manni
Well, that goes back to the conversation about pay. like And I remember like I didn't really talk a little bit about ah a lot about my experience on the Cavs, but I remember that being one of the things that that was most defeating for me because I was driving to practices three times a week from Columbus to Cleveland, which is a two-hour drive.
00:31:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:31:06
Manni
So then on top of that,
00:31:06
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:31:07
Manni
to have to come back to Cleveland to do appearances just to make above minimum wage was like, I cannot do this, you know?
00:31:13
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:31:16
Manni
And then I i i remember having like real intrinsic thoughts about like, um you know how I'm gonna come famous? I'm gonna run out onto that court. I'm gonna steal the basketball. I'm gonna make a layup and I'm gonna leave.
00:31:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:31:29
Manni
And I'm gonna be ESPN famous, you know? Like, as I'm on the sideline, like, should I do it?
00:31:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, Manny.
00:31:36
Manni
I know.
00:31:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I wish you would have done that.
00:31:37
Manni
Like, this is one of my biggest regrets in life of not going, like, Manny out, you know?
00:31:40
Stephanie Jay
Oh my, Monika, you told me that you like wanted to do that, and I dreamed about it for you.
00:31:45
Manni
But, like.
00:31:50
Stephanie Jay
like i want like I wanted you to run down the line in high five. This is when LeBron was still playing, too. It is high five, all the players.
00:31:57
Manni
Yes.
00:31:58
Stephanie Jay
um
00:31:58
Manni
Yes. Well, that was when I had that like out of body moment of like LeBron James and I are the same age. And he's a millionaire.
00:32:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:32:09
Manni
And I'm doing this. yeah
00:32:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Making $24.95 to perform at a cash game.
00:32:14
Manni
If that to perform at a cab game. Yes. So anyway. Yes. I know. Can you see it in your mind? I know. I'll go back and reenact it one day.
00:32:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Oh my gosh, Manny. I'm just like sad that you didn't do that.
00:32:28
Manni
All right, I'm going to move us along because we're going to be short on time, but I want to get to a couple more questions. Speaking of the coaches, ah we touched base about this a little bit last episode, but let's really get into it, their credibility.
00:32:41
Manni
um Here's another quote from that same article.
00:32:41
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:32:44
Manni
As Kelly and Judy admit, both were inducted into the DCC in an era where there was less emphasis on dancing skills. It's unclear whether their current authority is based on real life experience or just handed down from the Jones family. Yet, they inflict their arbitrary standard of professionalism and appeal with self with a self-righteous confidence.
00:33:09
Manni
so what do you think about the authority of these women and their coaching
Evaluating Cheerleader Coaching Credibility
00:33:13
Manni
style? Steph, I'm particularly curious because you're a dance teacher, so I want to make sure I'm framing this in a right way for our listeners because I don't think it's just like any other coach, right?
00:33:22
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:33:23
Manni
Like the basketball coaches who coach for the and NBA can no longer like do what they were doing when they were playing in the league, right?
00:33:26
Stephanie Jay
hmm.
00:33:31
Manni
And so I don't want it to be Like that doesn't make you credible because you can no longer do like Flotte turns and to a split jump, right?
00:33:35
Stephanie Jay
Mm
00:33:39
Manni
um But these two women Kelly and Judy are clearly my antagonist on this story And I think other people too Why are they allowed to have this approach under the guise of professionalism?
00:33:39
Stephanie Jay
hmm. Mm hmm.
00:33:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:33:52
Manni
Do you guys think and again? I'll throw that to Steph first and then we can go from there
00:33:57
Stephanie Jay
I think it's tricky because it speaks to what I noticed like in last episode about who they are choosing to be on the team. So they have this such a high bar of ability that they expect these dancers to have.
00:34:15
Stephanie Jay
though the choreography that they do doesn't need you to be able to do um switch arabesques and quadruple pirouettes and all these things but these dancers have to have those skills.
00:34:23
Manni
Right.
00:34:25
Manni
Hmm.
00:34:26
Stephanie Jay
So if you're talking about the fact that they're coaching a team full of collegiate dance team dancers who have these like crazy backgrounds or you know dancers who would come out of my studio who's done convention and like the dance awards and like all this crazy stuff if you're if you're talking about it from that perspective then in my personal opinion i don't think that they have the the credibility to be choosing a team with all this, like, all the accolades that these dancers come to DCC for.
00:34:56
Stephanie Jay
But what they do have is the legacy, the, the ma you know, like, you know, I want one thing that did say that to me was like the, the uniforms that they maintained though, tiny, and we hate them.
00:34:56
Manni
Hmm.
00:35:09
Stephanie Jay
But they were like the only they're like the only thing that they changed was just made them a little sparklier. like they still they they That line of like thunderstruck and stuff and they've been on that field and all that kind of thing. And um so I think about like you know college dancing coach coaches, like I having been one, there's like that tradition um ah Ohio State traditions there's certain things that you have to keep on like honored I guess and um and so they do have that aspect of it.
00:35:36
Manni
Hmm.
00:35:43
Stephanie Jay
um So this is a tricky question for me because of like if you're talking about dance know-how and like what they can then not necessarily, but from the business aspect and the that productivity or what's the word like profitability, like who the production the DCC image, um you know, they do have the in on what that is.
00:36:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. The production.
00:36:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:36:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I, I think like when I read this at first, Manny, like the, the quote about the coaches and their credibility, not every professional sports coach was that athlete. Like, I don't think, and.
00:36:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I equate this to my work as well. Like if you if you're a good leader, that doesn't mean you were a good individual contributor.
00:36:36
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:36:36
Manni
Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like those are different skill sets. A good coach doesn't necessarily have to have been a good player to, you know, those are two different skills. So my first reaction was like, I mean, I agree that Kelly and Judy are definitely the antagonists of the story, but that's not the thing I would pick at them for.
00:36:46
Manni
Right.
00:36:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
However, Steph, you talking about your like a teaching experience, dance teaching experience. is, I would say, something that would add credibility.
00:37:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
like They don't have, to my knowledge, they don't have experience teaching and studio in studios, coaching other dance teams. like the It seems like their only um qualification is having had been on the team, which actually, I would argue, doesn't make you a qualified coach.
00:37:15
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:37:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All of that said, for what they are trying to do, they clearly have done it.
00:37:26
Manni
Hmm.
00:37:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
it's just Is it what we what we feel good about at the end of the day, you know.
00:37:35
Stephanie Jay
One.
00:37:38
Manni
Yeah.
00:37:39
Erica Butler
I think they perpetuate a lot of the ideals of the organization, which works for the people in charge.
00:37:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:37:45
Manni
Yeah.
00:37:45
Erica Butler
They're not soliciting feedback from the dancers. How is this one for you?
00:37:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:37:51
Manni
Right. Yeah.
00:37:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and the
00:37:52
Manni
Well, that was the, that was the part of the question, right? Of like, is it because of their experience or is it because of the Jones family saying we have bestowed this upon you? And then that goes into this, like, that's what makes it hard for the dancers to question their authority is because they have the support of the Jones family who is like,
00:38:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:38:09
Erica Butler
Okay.
00:38:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:38:14
Manni
right? The bucco billionaires of America. And so it makes it hard for you to Erica's point. It makes it hard if you're a dancer to be able to stand up to anything they say or give any kind of feedback because the Jones family is the ones who are really actually maybe the antagonist in this story.
00:38:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:38:31
Manni
We all knew that.
00:38:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, I was going to say, like, Erica, your point there was like, oh, it's the same, like, fundamentals of this team as it is for the Cowboys themselves.
00:38:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, isn't Jerry jerry Jones, right? Isn't he, like, notoriously kind of a piece of shit, like a racist piece of shit?
00:38:53
Manni
No, what do you mean?
00:38:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Sorry.
00:38:55
Manni
He kneeled on the star.
00:38:55
Erica Butler
There's a bag order in a mistress ah yeah where's a gag order a mistress.
00:38:58
Manni
What'd you say?
00:39:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, okay.
00:39:03
Erica Butler
hear youlan Yeah.
00:39:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So I'm not confusing him with another Jerry Jones.
00:39:06
Erica Butler
and
00:39:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Got it. Got it.
00:39:09
Erica Butler
No.
00:39:09
Manni
yeah
00:39:12
Manni
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. So those parallels are interesting. Like, what do you, like, what does the, the Cowboys like culturally stand for or in principle stand for? And how has that flowed down to the cheerleading team? It's not a big surprise now that We don't pay these girls and we expect them to see this as a privilege and fall in line and do as they're told.
00:39:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So cool.
00:39:38
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:38
Erica Butler
And someone else will be picked, if not them. So I can't blame the dancers that they're not, like I would love to see someone take a stand, but I think that would just be seen as complaining and they would be pushed out.
00:39:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:39:50
Manni
Exactly.
00:39:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And that's how they keep them all in line. Yeah.
00:39:53
Manni
yeah And that's how they keep millions of girls coming out to try out for the team.
00:39:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's like you got to kiss the ring.
00:39:57
Manni
you know It's a pretty strange cycle.
00:39:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:40:01
Manni
But I was thinking, like as you guys were talking, there were, I guess, I forgot that some of the like more endearing moments for Kelly and Judy and some of the moments where I did see them as human was when they were um put next to the Jones family because we could see them you know like you could see them being like well we have to do this because when what's her name comes up what was Carol or whatever it might comes like she's gonna yeah she's gonna expect us to do it you know and then they turned into like little girls right
00:40:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, I knew exactly.
00:40:25
Stephanie Jay
I'm sorry.
00:40:26
Erica Butler
Charlotte. yeah
00:40:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We've called her so many different names.
00:40:32
Stephanie Jay
Yeah, what is her name? Like, can somebody Google it? I'm dead. Like, what is her name?
00:40:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Cheryl, Carol, Charlotte, we're just all over.
00:40:38
Stephanie Jay
Charlotte?
00:40:39
Erica Butler
What I don't care, I forget someone's name. So what keeps happening here?
00:40:41
Stephanie Jay
Yes, same.
00:40:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Her name is gonna be like Bethany or something.
00:40:44
Stephanie Jay
Same.
00:40:44
Erica Butler
but
00:40:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like we're just gonna be like totally off.
00:40:50
Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:40:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But yes, Manny, like when they were, when Kelly and Judy were fighting for the extra spot and Jessica Jones, whatever her name is, was like.
00:40:56
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:40:57
Manni
Yes.
00:40:58
Stephanie Jay
a
00:41:01
Erica Butler
Do we just move on to calling her Karen Jones or what?
00:41:05
Stephanie Jay
Yes.
00:41:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah Karen.
00:41:08
Manni
i um Thank you. eica
00:41:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, gosh.
00:41:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And we're done. See you next week.
00:41:18
Stephanie Jay
and
00:41:20
Manni
ah No we're not. Stay here. We have one more thing to talk about.
00:41:25
Manni
um i I do really, we're gonna wrap with this last question. We talked about her a little bit last time, um but I do wanna bring it back, our ah come full circle here with Victoria.
The Journey of Former Cheerleader Victoria
00:41:35
Manni
Have you guys seen any um action from Victoria, any updates? I see you smiling, Erica, why um what have you seen about Victoria that's making you like smile? And
00:41:48
Erica Butler
um I am rooting for her. um I feel like she was someone who really embodied having gone through the system. Um, and she, you know, it was a dream of her.
00:42:00
Erica Butler
She was indoctrinated into the program. Um, and yet she, I don't know if it's because of her year away or her relationship with her mom and her mom's friendship with Kelly or whatever, but she just stood out as different.
00:42:15
Erica Butler
And I just think she was, you know, as a young 20 something starting to question some of the things that were put in front of her. And so I really appreciated a lot of her candid thoughts with the camera crew and the conversations that came of that.
00:42:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:42:31
Erica Butler
um She wasn't as indoctrinated in the sisterhood. And I think that started to, yeah, exactly.
00:42:37
Manni
Yeah, that's probably what saved her.
00:42:41
Erica Butler
So I'm just, I'm really rooting for her and finding, you know, what she wants to do with her life and having moved on from the situation. I feel like it would feel like were recovering from a cult almost ah you after the fact.
00:42:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:42:54
Manni
Yeah.
00:42:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I mean, it's funny you say that when I was texting Manny and Steph about this when I first started watching it.
00:42:56
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:43:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I was like, it's giving me like Stockholm syndrome, like, they are being abused by this institution. And yet they're just desiring like their, their approval and their They're desiring being wanted by this organization that's just like abusing them from every angle. It's just so it's like like a cult. That's what it is. It's so crazy.
00:43:28
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:43:28
Manni
Yeah, you could kind of see that in the girls who are like the most recent um ones who had to like who kind of were like retired out.
00:43:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:43:36
Manni
like You could see them kind of questioning it. And I think that like you know for all that we, like I said, I have this love-hate relationship with this show. like I really do love Thunderstruck. I love the routine.
00:43:47
Manni
I love the white booth.
00:43:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh gosh.
00:43:48
Manni
I love so many pieces of this show that I know we didn't really go into. But I think one of the things that made me the most happy was that That camera being on Victoria actually helped her to see
00:44:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
you
00:44:02
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:44:03
Manni
what she was really going through and to question it with her own moral authority that gave her the permission to walk away from something that was not benefiting her at all.
00:44:06
Stephanie Jay
Okay.
00:44:09
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:44:15
Stephanie Jay
Uh huh.
00:44:17
Manni
And that, I think, is like one of the most beautiful things. I think if you haven't followed her story, she is now in New York, I believe.
00:44:28
Manni
And she's taking dance classes in the city, and she's like like trying to audition for other like Broadway shows or other performances and musicals. The Rockettes? Yeah, that's what I thought it was. OK. So she's yes she's just cut the cord from this organization and has really started like listening to her own inner self, it sounds like, or our higher self. And we love that for her.
00:44:55
Manni
So.
00:44:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah that makes me happy. I just hope like ah something that they showed a lot I feel like on the show was her her complexity and her struggle with mental health clearly and probably eating disorders like we talked about last time. But then when they also showed her and her social media presence and this kind of facade that she would put on and in front of the camera.
00:45:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so I hope that what you see on social media and what she's doing right now is a little bit more true to who she is in her current experience because that is a problem with social media.
00:45:37
Erica Butler
Thank you.
00:45:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's not a very accurate depiction of real life. And so, yeah, I just,
00:45:45
Manni
But I kind of took it as she like embraced the story of being the warrior for women with like eating disorders and coming out and being like, this is what I, stress I kind of took it as that's the what route that she's taking of like, she's kind of owning it.
00:45:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Good.
00:46:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I hope so. Yeah.
00:46:02
Manni
But that maybe that's not true. I don't know. But I'm i'm gonna um gonna end on that positive note.
00:46:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, I hope.
00:46:06
Manni
and
00:46:09
Manni
So before we um ah wrap up, are there any confessionals that you guys want to come to share with our listeners?
00:46:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I
00:46:21
Erica Butler
Just quickly, for me, I think as we've been talking about this topic so much of, you know, love-hate, the inner complexities that we felt about the show, um you know, this is happens broader in the dance world or broader in other, um like in my field, you know, appearance-focused sports, like there's some things about this, these topics that are so common and relatable and not unique to DCC, but just, again, the way the docu-series was done,
00:46:48
Erica Butler
and just highlighting the both like old school aspects of this organization, you know, kind of being rebranded, but just also that, you know, the individual rights of these women to pursue this career opportunity and their, you know, that being their goal and
00:46:57
Manni
Hmm.
00:47:02
Manni
Hmm.
00:47:07
Erica Butler
you know, autonomous decision, but also highlighting the problematic nature of the system that they are existing in. It just was so well done. And I think that's why I felt myself like rooting for them and their stories and their journey, but also appalled and just disgusted by some of the themes that I was seeing that I've just been subject to for the last, you know, 20 years of my life.
00:47:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
here
00:47:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I love that.
00:47:32
Manni
Yeah. Wow.
00:47:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think that's a big theme we explore broadly is like two things can be true.
00:47:34
Manni
I know.
00:47:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's not everything isn't black and white. um You can cheer for these women who we all want to, you know, do well in this world and get through this chapter of their lives as gracefully as they can and also kind of hate the institution that is taking them down this path and those both of those things can be true at the same time, which is a good reminder for me too.
00:48:04
Manni
Yeah. I love it. All right. Well, before we let Erica go, I, um, we at the You Can Call Me Karen podcast are, um, if you were ever a guest on our show, you were going to be subject to this part of a guest appearing, which we're still feeling out the name, but I think we're going to call it keep it snappy.
00:48:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yay.
00:48:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah we're not.
00:48:41
Manni
Oh my God.
00:48:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:48:47
Manni
Oh, okay. So basically what we need you to do is answer these questions for us as quickly as you can, whatever first pops into your head, okay? All right.
00:48:57
Erica Butler
Okay.
00:48:59
Manni
So um first question, a dance performance you'll never forget and why?
00:49:05
Erica Butler
trying out for the Ohio State dance team when my fake hair fell out because I was killing it and I was expecting something embarrassing.
00:49:17
Erica Butler
Having the performance of my life and did not spend as much time getting ready as a DCC girl with the blowout would have done.
00:49:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh Yes, so amazing.
00:49:32
Manni
Oh my God. ah That is an amazing answer. Okay. Who is your favorite dancer of all time?
00:49:39
Erica Butler
Michael Jackson.
00:49:40
Manni
has Yes.
00:49:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, good answer.
00:49:43
Manni
Yes.
00:49:44
Stephanie Jay
Yes.
00:49:44
Manni
She's fire. This is fire. Okay. um Besides Danny Butler, what's your favorite snack?
Rapid-Fire Questions with Erica Butler
00:49:55
Erica Butler
ye Salty dark chocolate. Hope that's not too loaded.
00:49:57
Manni
Oh!
00:49:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh
00:50:00
Erica Butler
yeah
00:50:00
Manni
Watch out! so
00:50:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
crying again.
00:50:07
Manni
Okay. In a parallel world, you're a living life as...
00:50:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
so
00:50:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:50:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Erica's like, I'm living my best life.
00:50:19
Erica Butler
I mean a DCC cheerleader I feel like after our conversation today.
00:50:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah
00:50:23
Manni
Yes, you really are. Yes, guys, she's six foot in a ne in the parallel life. She makes the game. There's no height requirement.
00:50:36
Manni
Okay, I tried this with your with my co-hosts on our last keep it snappy slash rapid fire. Let's see if how you respond. Finish the sentence. It's 7 p.m. Friday.
00:50:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:50:50
Erica Butler
And I'm sitting on my couch.
00:50:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Thank you, Erica.
00:51:00
Erica Butler
And I took off my work clothes two hours ago.
00:51:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We didn't get it either, Erica, but apparently it's a thing.
00:51:07
Stephanie Jay
I give it?
00:51:08
Manni
I'm healing. No, okay. All right, this is a little bit more serious, but what's a compliment you would recommend we say if we want to recognize someone looks good in their body?
00:51:20
Erica Butler
Hmm.
00:51:22
Erica Butler
We try to focus on things that are not appearance-based that are, it's so wonderful to see you. you seem youre You seem like you're glowing. You seem so happy. How are you?
00:51:33
Erica Butler
um I love the way I feel when I'm with you. I love the way I feel when I'm around you.
00:51:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:51:37
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:51:38
Erica Butler
So I don't know, there is something to
00:51:41
Erica Butler
Cause we don't know how someone's feeling in their body when we're complimenting it.
00:51:44
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:51:44
Manni
Yeah.
00:51:45
Erica Butler
So I, yeah, I think there's context there of how do we, yeah.
00:51:48
Manni
I love that answer. I love the way I feel when I'm around you.
00:51:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:51:52
Manni
That is a yummy compliment.
00:51:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:51:54
Manni
All right. um Second to last question. Who's your favorite host on the You Can Call Me Karen podcast?
00:52:03
Erica Butler
whoa but for I am calling my lawyer, including the fifth. But oh you're not tricking me into answering that.
00:52:17
Erica Butler
so
00:52:18
Manni
And then finally, where can people find out more about you and the work that you do?
00:52:25
Erica Butler
Yes. So I haven't been as active recently, but I do share a lot with my community online at Instagram at Align Nutrition. And I also have a podcast called the Align Nutrition Podcast.
00:52:37
Manni
Hmm.
00:52:37
Erica Butler
Anyone is welcome to reach out to me via my website at AlignNutrition.com.
00:52:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And we will link everything in the show notes so everyone has access.
00:52:46
Manni
Yes.
00:52:46
Erica Butler
Find out more about my work there. Anything I can answer, get in touch.
00:52:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yay.
00:52:51
Manni
Thank you, Erica. It has been a pleasure to have you on our podcast as our first guest on the You Can Call Me Karen podcast.
00:52:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:52:58
Manni
Thank you listeners for joining in. Please don't forget to follow us on Instagram, like and subscribe to our channel. Please leave us comments and reviews. We appreciate it very much and we'll see you next week, Karens.