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Cancel Culture Part 2: Do People Ever Really Get Canceled?
33 Plays3 months ago
In this thought-provoking follow-up episode of You Can Call Me Karen, hosts Steph, Karen, and Manni dive deeper into the complexities of cancel culture. We ask the tough questions: Do people ever truly get canceled? Or do figures like Matt Lauer, Bill Cosby, and others find ways to resurface? Is cancel culture ultimately good or bad for society?
We explore the blurred lines between accountability and punishment. Can we still enjoy the music of Michael Jackson, R. Kelly, or P. Diddy without guilt? Where do we draw the line, and why is it so hard to agree on it?
Join us as we examine the role of mass media and social platforms in amplifying these controversies. Has cancel culture increased in frequency, or is it simply more visible now? We tackle the questions that everyone is asking but few are willing to answer.
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
List of articles referenced in this episode:
https://apnews.com/article/bill-cosby-conviction-overturned-5c073fb64bc5df4d7b99ee7fadddbe5a
https://apnews.com/article/feb681ec613e412eb0c2ffd832c8aa29
https://www.ucf.edu/pegasus/is-cancel-culture-effective/
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
Intro
The Cosby Show and the Dilemma of Cancel Culture
00:01:03
Steph
A post on Reddit asked, does anyone think that the Cosby show will ever come back on air? We all know that ah what a predator Cosby is, but he wasn't the only person on the show. Is canceling the entire series from syndication the only way to show disapproval of Bill Cosby's alleged actions? If you still long for catching reruns, does that mean you support what Cosby allegedly did?
Introduction to Cancel Culture Discussion
00:01:28
Steph
Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast.
00:01:41
Steph
Hey, hey, hey. I don't know if that's what came out. Oh. Hey, hey, hey.
00:01:49
Manni
but la
00:01:52
Steph
Whoa.
00:01:54
Manni
oh
00:01:55
Steph
Listen. OK, because I'm on fire today.
00:01:57
Manni
but out with yeah yeah
00:02:01
Steph
Let's go. Um, hi everybody. This is Steph and you are joining us for the You Can Call Me Karen podcast.
00:02:08
Manni
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
00:02:09
Steph
I'm joined by my lovely, amazing, wonderful co-hosts, Manny.
00:02:13
Manni
Hello, hey, hey, hey.
00:02:15
Steph
a
00:02:19
Steph
ah had and And of course we have Karen.
00:02:19
karenstansfield
You do that really well.
00:02:21
Manni
It was so good. And the shoulder movement, it was impressive.
00:02:28
karenstansfield
hey I've got nothing. I can't follow that. Here I am.
00:02:34
Steph
Well, welcome,
Focusing on Individuals in Cancel Culture
00:02:35
Steph
everyone. um So today we are going to be continuing our conversation about cancel color culture. Last week we discussed the cancellation, quote unquote, of businesses and organizations, and we provided some historical context. But this week we will be more focused on individuals who have fallen from grace. But before we dig into today's topic, let's hear from Manny and Karen with, who are you calling Karen?
Karen's Cab Ride and Social Expectations
00:03:00
karenstansfield
Who are you calling, Karen?
00:03:01
Manni
Karen?
00:03:04
karenstansfield
You're really trying.
00:03:06
Steph
yeah but Stop trying to make fetch happen.
00:03:08
Manni
and it
00:03:14
karenstansfield
um You want me to get us kicked off?
00:03:14
Manni
i
00:03:17
Steph
Yes, Karen, let's go.
00:03:20
karenstansfield
Okay, I was pondering this in my cab ride home last night um because I find myself ah often like wanting to be more of a Karen.
00:03:32
karenstansfield
So yeah stick with me for a second.
00:03:34
Manni
Wow!
00:03:35
Steph
Okay.
00:03:35
Manni
What a professional!
00:03:37
Steph
Okay.
00:03:37
karenstansfield
but so like i um I have always been a people pleaser and so like I don't like conflict and I don't like um like making situations uncomfortable.
00:03:50
karenstansfield
And so I was thinking about it in a cab yesterday. So I was coming home from the airport I had just flown back from London and so I was very sleep deprived. And um I i like got in the cab and the driver was like wanting to chat. you know like he He clearly knew he picked me up from the international terminal. And so he was like, ooh, where are you coming from? Oh, so this must be like midnight for you. Oh, let me ask you a gajillion questions. And I was like,
00:04:23
karenstansfield
i was I was being polite, I was responding. um And then thankfully he got a call so he was like chatting with somebody else for a while so I could just zone out. um He was driving horribly aggressively to the point where I was like gonna, I felt like I was gonna puke.
00:04:38
karenstansfield
And then about halfway through, he threw in some gum and was like mouth noise city. And like I, you know like, and like,
00:04:48
Manni
Oh, the noise city.
00:04:55
karenstansfield
And i I swear, you know, having a kid makes you more tolerant of those noises than maybe you otherwise would be. But I, yeah, aye I was, I was like, I was like shaking.
00:05:08
Manni
very over calculated, actually.
00:05:13
karenstansfield
I was like, I can't get out of this cab fast enough. And I was sitting there contemplating like asking him to spit out his gum and ah not feeling comfortable enough to say that. And thinking about telling this story today, like this is my Karen battle and my name is Karen.
Strategies for Non-Confrontational Conflict Resolution
00:05:34
karenstansfield
So I feel like I overcompensate to like not fulfill the stereotype, but I i was like I was like trying to jump out of my skin. I was so uncomfortable. I thought I was going to hurl. There was so I can't even articulate how much mouth noise there was. It was.
00:05:52
karenstansfield
it would I was like, is there's no way you have other people who live in your house because someone would punch you in the face if they heard. like The way you smack your lips is just gum.
00:06:04
karenstansfield
like What happens when you eat food? I can't. Okay, so i didn't I didn't Karen.
00:06:08
Manni
No.
00:06:11
karenstansfield
I didn't Karen. And I didn't even tip poorly, which I'm kicking myself for.
00:06:16
Manni
Oh, oo good point.
00:06:17
karenstansfield
but like But am I i don't and allowed to be a Karen in that situation? like What am I supposed to do? Help me.
00:06:29
Steph
I feel like I saw someone post in their stories about an Uber ride and she said that the driver was Um, talking to her a lot and she specifically, I think you can select, you'd prefer a quiet ride.
00:06:47
karenstansfield
Yeah, you can, but I was in a cab. It was a taxi.
00:06:50
Steph
Oh, it was a cat. Oh, no, they don't.
00:06:53
karenstansfield
And also, by the way, Ubers don't always respect that selection because mine always says quiet.
00:06:58
Steph
This was, that was, that was her whole point was like, what is the point of me?
00:07:00
karenstansfield
but
00:07:03
Steph
you know, indicating I'd like a quiet ride because in addition to the chomping and smacking, he was having a phone conversation too. Like that is really overstimulating to me too.
00:07:12
karenstansfield
o
00:07:14
Steph
Like that's like ah the ride from hell.
00:07:18
Manni
Yeah, I realize back from London, like you must be really tired, blah, blah, blah,
00:07:18
Steph
Jesus.
00:07:18
karenstansfield
aye I actually,
00:07:23
Steph
um
00:07:24
karenstansfield
yeah, he literally, I didn't even say it. He totally acknowledged that I was sleep deprived.
00:07:33
karenstansfield
And like, he was like, oh, let me find out everything I need to know about this woman.
00:07:37
Manni
right
00:07:38
karenstansfield
You just came from London. What was the weather like? Do you travel often? Tell me more about yourself. I was like, literally go, go fuck yourself.
00:07:43
Manni
blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:07:47
karenstansfield
i But instead of all of that, I just, I just, I just politely responded and didn't say anything to indicate otherwise.
00:07:49
Manni
but oh fuck
00:07:52
Steph
Oh.
00:07:58
Manni
Yeah, so here's here's what I would have done because I am similar in that I don't like confrontation Especially when I feel I don't like small talk exactly but especially when I feel like this person has my life in their hands, you know, I just feel like
00:08:07
karenstansfield
Small talk. Oh.
00:08:19
Manni
could go a couple of different ways that are very dark in my mind. So there's like a little bit of a fear right there right of that. In other situations, maybe that might be plausible, but in situations where like the driver has control, I and just like you, right? So um I kind of pulled this one year when we were coming back from national or I was going home from nationals when I had, um I had a flight in the morning really early. I had to leave and know how there's not a ton of Ubers around. So like, I thought I was getting an Uber in enough time, but I wasn't. And then the Uber driver was going really slow. So I picked up my phone and I pretended to have a conversation with someone
00:09:07
karenstansfield
Oh my God, yes.
00:09:08
Manni
And I was like i i know like, I hope I make my flight. like i'll be you know i
00:09:14
karenstansfield
So smart.
00:09:16
Manni
like i just It's going to be cutting it really close. And the next thing you do, no, that guy is on the gas going super fast.
00:09:23
karenstansfield
So smart.
00:09:24
Manni
And when we get to the airport, he opens up he opens up the trunk. And he's like, oh my gosh, ma'am, I really hope you make your flight. like Good luck to you. And I was like, ah! So in that.
00:09:34
karenstansfield
That is genius.
00:09:36
Manni
ah
00:09:36
karenstansfield
Oh, good.
00:09:38
Manni
So I would have a conversation like I'm so tired.
00:09:38
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:09:40
Manni
I think I'm going to take a nap in this Uber on the ride on the taxi ride so that I can get some rest before at my big meeting tomorrow.
00:09:44
karenstansfield
and
00:09:49
Manni
A little white lie.
00:09:49
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:09:49
Steph
Oh I love that.
00:09:52
karenstansfield
Brilliant. I picture me doing that. And as I'm on the pretend phone, my phone rings.
00:10:01
karenstansfield
because that's exactly what would happen to me. But I love that. That's brilliant. I'm going to use that for sure.
00:10:07
Steph
Mm-hmm, very good.
00:10:09
karenstansfield
Thank you for the guidance.
00:10:11
Manni
Hey, that's what I'm here for.
00:10:13
karenstansfield
So that's my not Karen Karen for
Allison Holker's Book on Twitch and Legacy
00:10:15
karenstansfield
the week, you know, my inter-term oil Karen.
00:10:15
Steph
yeah
00:10:16
Manni
Your potential caring. Your potential caring.
00:10:20
Steph
Jamie, who are you calling Karen this week?
00:10:23
Manni
um Okay, so I kind of alluded to this in our dance team group chat.
00:10:28
karenstansfield
yeah
00:10:29
Manni
I was going to call this person the Karen for the week. So we are recording this podcast on January 12th. recently, about two or three days ago, it came out that Allison, am I saying last name right?
00:10:42
Steph
poker.
00:10:44
Manni
poker ah who was married to ah Stephen Boss Twitch, who um died a couple of years ago. She has come out with a somewhat of a tell-all book, I guess, about um Twitch and the aftermath of what she has gone through since discovering that um he had some, let's just call him,
00:11:11
Manni
for allegedly, allegedly demons in the closet. And um she has received, it's interesting that we're talking about this on the cancel culture episode.
00:11:22
karenstansfield
Oh, cancer culture.
00:11:24
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:11:25
Manni
She has received a bunch of this real, not only from people in the dance community, but specifically from Twitch's family.
00:11:29
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:11:36
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:11:36
Manni
who we are finding out had to sign an NDA to even attend his funeral, which is
00:11:43
karenstansfield
and
00:11:45
Manni
What she said was to protect his legacy, which brings me to why she would be the Karen for the week because she um claimed that she was doing all this to protect his legacy. When we first found out that he died by suicide, we um she claimed that um she had no idea of the struggles that he was going through and there were no signs. and It seems like some of that is changing in her language now
Ethics of Disclosing Personal Journals
00:12:14
Manni
and also she's profiting off of this book. So my question,
00:12:22
Manni
not necessarily, we don't have to get into the truth of it all because I'm not sure we'll ever find out any of that, but My reason why I think she is a Karen is as somebody who writes in their ah journal a lot.
00:12:38
Manni
um One of the pieces of information that has been circulating in the news is that she found one of Twitch's or several of Twitch's journals in their closet. And that is the information that she uses in her book.
00:12:51
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:12:52
Manni
So that's my question to you guys of like, what is
00:12:53
karenstansfield
oh
00:12:54
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:12:57
Manni
a partners What is an appropriate response as a partner um when you have somebody who is passed on and you find some of their personal stuff?
Celebrity Grief and Mental Health Advocacy
00:13:09
Manni
um I know for me, i don't we'll I think we'll talk about the afterlife sometime in this season later on.
00:13:15
karenstansfield
Oh, uh, well, we, yeah.
00:13:17
Manni
But we'll talk about spirituality and stuff.
00:13:22
karenstansfield
yeah
00:13:25
Manni
I think that if you ever find any of my journals and tell anybody about it, that is a great way for me to haunt you for the rest of your motherfucking life.
00:13:35
Steph
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
00:13:36
karenstansfield
i ah so I haven't read all of the articles. I know we were sharing them, but admittedly, yeah, I was just distracted and I didn't get a chance to read them.
00:13:46
karenstansfield
And you you guys know, for whatever reason, Twitch's suicide like really rocked me ah when when it happened.
00:13:51
Manni
Same, same.
00:13:51
Steph
Mm-hmm. Same.
00:13:53
karenstansfield
And still, like it's really hard for me to even contemplate.
00:13:56
Manni
hard
00:13:56
karenstansfield
but
00:13:56
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:13:56
Manni
Yeah.
00:13:57
karenstansfield
um But that said, I didn't realize that she was using his journals allegedly, right? I guess we can speculate whether, like his mental state.
00:14:07
Manni
No, it's.
00:14:09
Steph
No, that's not alleged.
00:14:09
Manni
that
00:14:10
Steph
She did use a snippet from his journal to to explain um what she was, yeah, to explain his mental state.
00:14:21
karenstansfield
But so I guess where my head went immediately when you said that Manny is that it's I'm going to say it's different because they are in the public eye. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong because I just am processing this information right now, but I do think because they're in the public eye, there is so many more people that would be interested to understand why it happened, right? Like suicide is just one of those things that I think we all yearn for answers on and never get them. And so there's a part of me that understands like, if she's writing a memoir, which the, yeah, like her profiting off of this circumstance is certainly questionable, but if she's doing that, the thought that may be going through her mind is
00:15:21
karenstansfield
I can't speak on behalf of him, so if I have his words to explain you know how how he was feeling, then maybe that answers some questions for people. I don't know. it's like if i it if you If it was like one of us, as dark as that is,
00:15:41
karenstansfield
I don't think I would want Bob publishing my journal, but I don't know that I would mind if he shared with you all, for example, where I was at mentally and what I was struggling with.
00:15:54
Manni
Hmm. Hmm.
00:15:57
karenstansfield
Cause it's, you know, my friends and my family.
00:16:00
Manni
Well, I think that's the point is that she didn't share with his friends and his family.
00:16:00
karenstansfield
So no,
00:16:01
Steph
She's in a book. so boy
00:16:05
karenstansfield
oh, she didn't at all. She just went straight to the book.
00:16:08
Manni
Yeah, there's no there's no relationship.
00:16:11
Steph
Or that she, like, even if she did share with his friends and family, she should, that yeah I think that that makes sense if she was only sharing it with his friends and family, but she's putting it in a book for all the world to see.
00:16:19
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:16:23
karenstansfield
yeah
00:16:23
Steph
And for
Public Figures' Legacy Impact
00:16:24
Steph
us, um you know, people who don't know him personally, you know, his legacy is like like, when I think of Twitch, I think of his smile, I think of his talent, I think of his warmth, I think of his, you know, and so, and I was fully able to just accept that I don't know what caused him to commit suicide, but I will forever hold him the way I envisioned him.
00:16:34
Manni
Right, right.
00:16:45
Manni
Left.
00:16:48
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:16:49
Steph
And what she has done has tarnished and darkened and made me like start to think about things that I was not going to let myself think about. I'm just going to, you know, especially us like in the dance community.
00:16:58
Manni
Right.
00:17:01
Steph
Like I saw an article that was talking, ah oh, actually it was in Essence. um It was Essence magazine posted after Alison Hulker's.
00:17:10
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:17:11
Steph
cover came out and their quote was like delicious but it basically was something like he was ours like especially part of the Black community and I feel like that um as a Black person as a Black woman he was ours before he was everyone's like I don't think of him as the guy from Ellen
00:17:14
Manni
Yes. Up.
00:17:18
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:17:19
Manni
up
00:17:29
Steph
And when I say he was ours, I think of him as he was ours in the dance community first.
00:17:30
karenstansfield
No. Yeah.
00:17:34
Steph
He was a dancer, period.
00:17:35
karenstansfield
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:37
Steph
um And so we love him. And i there's i I don't need to know anything beyond that. like i'm you know And so she needs to grapple with what has happened.
00:17:48
Steph
His family needs to grapple with what had happened. I don't think that we outside of his bubble need to grapple with what has happened.
00:17:56
Manni
i
00:17:56
Steph
We celebrate him. We carry on his legacy. We continue to lead with kindness and joy that he he did. And that's it.
00:18:03
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:18:03
Steph
End of story. Don't put it in the book.
00:18:04
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:18:06
Manni
Yeah, I love that.
00:18:06
Steph
Caring of the week.
00:18:08
Manni
um i Two things popped up when you were talking about that, and that's one, mental health in the black community.
00:18:14
Steph
It is complicated.
00:18:15
Manni
it's complicated. And her um her inability to be able to understand that, um I think that's what's the undertone from the family and the Black community especially of like, well, wait. and And it's like the, I saw in one of the comments of like the fetishing of Black men without really knowing and if you write And so there's one layer of that, which you were talking about, Steph. And then two, to Karen's point, and i and I think we'll get into this today when we talk about celebrity, right? It's like, well, just how, what is the humanity of a celebrity, right?
00:18:57
Manni
responsibility of a celebrity to inform me about anything, and you know, whether it be ah something as dark and and and awful as committing suicide or something as simple as my skincare routine, you know, like the level of um
00:19:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:19:18
Manni
I don't even know that the authority, I guess, that we give to celebrity. I feel like we're seeing that kind of change right now in the conversations around like, you know, like we had last week of like influencers versus journalists.
00:19:22
Steph
her
00:19:31
Manni
Like, you know, I don't know. I feel like that hierarchy is somewhat like crumbling. And so I think part of this conversation and is like, you know, it to your point, Steph, like I my relationship to this person was him being in the dance community.
00:19:49
Manni
And I just want to be able to savor it as that.
00:19:54
Steph
Favorite, yeah.
00:19:55
Manni
I don't know. I feel like i'm I'm in this private conversation that I shouldn't be a part of. and
00:20:01
Steph
Mm hmm. Yes. Private home system that we shouldn't be a part of. Yes.
00:20:06
Manni
so
00:20:06
Steph
You know, um, I do feel like because I follow Alison Hulker on Instagram, and she did do a post in response to all of the negative. And so she said that her intention was to shed light on mental health.
00:20:20
Steph
She said that she missed signs. And so her intention was to share from her perspective, because she doesn't want anyone else to have to go through what she went through. And so And on the flip side, you know her being in celebrity, I know we're saying what responsibility that she had, but she felt a responsibility to share these these are things that I've missed.
00:20:39
Manni
and
00:20:39
Steph
And that was really, truly her and um her um intention. And she also said that um she plans to make sure the proceeds from the book go towards mental NAMI and other ah mental health.
00:20:44
Manni
Yes.
00:20:52
Manni
Organizations, right?
00:20:53
Steph
organizations and she does not plan to profit off of the book. So I i feel like if, you know, us as if we're being responsible and discussing it as podcasters, um she did say that.
00:20:58
Manni
Right.
00:21:02
Manni
right
00:21:04
Steph
um But and and maybe this is all true. And that's where what she's saying. I still disagree with her, including something so personal in the book, but I feel like.
00:21:14
Manni
Right, because there's also, and I know we have to wrap and move on, um but there's also the marketing and promotion that goes into all of that, right?
00:21:17
Steph
Yeah. Mm hmm.
00:21:22
Manni
Like, so to use People magazine to be the, you know, the source, that's where people are like, yes, and, but, like, ugh.
00:21:22
Steph
Mm-hmm. Yes. Exactly.
00:21:31
Steph
Mm-hmm.
Cancel Culture's Effect on Cultural Memory
00:21:32
Steph
Well, probably
00:21:32
karenstansfield
It is really, I think it is really complex. Cause I can, I can see both sides and like to your points, both of your points on like, um, mental health and the black community specifically, I think part of the, I guess challenges the stigma around mental health.
00:21:39
Manni
Right.
00:21:44
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:21:53
karenstansfield
And so if we can say these things out loud and help people to
00:21:53
Manni
Yeah.
00:22:01
karenstansfield
you know, be more open about the challenges that they're having or have, or get access to mental health care. Maybe we can start to break down some of that stigma so people can actually get help.
00:22:14
karenstansfield
I don't know. I can see both sides. I don't love the capitalistic and like Karen-y undertones. I don't, I.
00:22:23
Steph
Though the headline, um
00:22:24
Manni
Well, in part of black mental health is white supremacy, you know? ah
00:22:29
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:22:30
Steph
yeah here those one the comments um was on the People Magazine post was the headline was like, he was hiding so much.
00:22:30
Manni
yeah
00:22:32
karenstansfield
say Yeah, yeah.
00:22:39
Steph
And someone was like, so let it hide, let it hide. like what Let it, if you know, like why do we need to know then?
00:22:42
karenstansfield
yeah
00:22:45
Manni
Right. Yeah.
00:22:48
Steph
End of story.
00:22:48
Manni
Right.
00:22:48
karenstansfield
Yeah, it's not, yeah.
00:22:49
Steph
but
00:22:50
karenstansfield
it i by By that statement, I didn't mean like let all of his shit out, but more of like, ah you know, that even even the people that seem the most happy are dealing with shit and it's okay to, it's okay to not be okay.
00:22:55
Steph
Business outright, exactly.
00:23:07
Steph
Say so. and That was a good one.
00:23:08
Manni
Yes.
00:23:11
karenstansfield
I don't know. It's ah it's a messy one, but, um
00:23:14
Manni
But that's, yeah, that's our, I like that we, there's there's um ambiguity here and that's Karen's for the week.
00:23:16
Steph
yeah
00:23:22
Steph
yeah
00:23:25
Steph
That's going to go the week.
00:23:27
Steph
All right, so um today we are going to be digging into um more into cancel culture, and we got to start with The Cosby Show, which was a staple of my childhood. I know and there wasn't a whole lot I was a allowed to watch on TV, um so I could watch TGIF and The Cosby Show in my bedtime was at 8.30.
00:23:49
Steph
office so
00:23:49
karenstansfield
Oh my gosh, we had the same childhood stuff.
00:23:51
Steph
we have theage out um So it's pretty devastating that America's dad, ah Bill Cosby, likeable um is canceled.
00:24:02
Steph
um But it's rightfully so. The list of alleged, I have to say alleged, I'm assuming i'm assuming so I'm going to say alleged, sexual assault victims is terrifyingly long. But what happens to our memories of a show that left a lasting impression on our childhoods?
00:24:17
Steph
So like what happens to how I think back to watching that show and um the positive influence that it had? um We are heading into finding out more about Diddy, which might take out some ah other musicians we millennials love, and I will be gutted if we start taking down some of these people.
00:24:29
karenstansfield
Mmm.
00:24:37
Steph
And don't get me started on Michael Jackson. Honestly, you don't want to get me started on Michael Jackson, am I right? So maybe Jared, because I could go on and on. Um, so, so basically, you know, there's this list of, you know, celebrities who have had influence on our lives and they have fallen from grace, made terrible decisions and choices and actions.
00:24:48
Manni
Yes.
00:25:02
Steph
And now, um, you know, like you can't find Cosby show anywhere. And I used to be able to catch it on multiple television stations anytime during the day. Um, So I found an article that I'm going to be referencing a lot ah throughout the discussion and the title of the article is, is cancel culture effective?
00:25:21
Steph
So I want to start with this quote from the article.
00:25:21
Manni
Mmm.
00:25:24
Steph
um It's a really good article. i um It was on the University of Central Florida um website dot.edu. So it looks like it was researched. But um it says, the instant nature of social media means that very large, complicated social issues get condensed into one sentence, a one minute for TikTok videos, or just a photo on Instagram.
00:25:50
Steph
Kooten says, everything is becoming very succinct. It both discourages nuanced discussion and encourages all or nothing stances.
00:26:00
Manni
Mm.
00:26:01
Steph
Cancel culture is you're all good or you're all bad.
00:26:04
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:26:05
Steph
And human nature is much more complicated than that.
00:26:08
Manni
Wow.
00:26:08
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:26:08
Steph
That's the and that's the end of the quote. um I like that quote because first of all, it ties to our previous discussion of the media being the fourth branch of government.
00:26:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:26:18
Steph
And that's how these one-liners and these one-minute videos have become how many people get their quote unquote news and information.
00:26:25
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:26:26
Steph
So these like one-liners is how we decide who we should be voting for and who we should write. So I love that quote for that.
00:26:36
Steph
Do I need to pause?
00:26:37
karenstansfield
It's terrifying.
00:26:38
Manni
yeah That yeah was like my moment of sadness on the episode today.
00:26:44
Steph
but um and But I also like the quote because I think it's a good lead into our discussion because it calls up the fact that with all these one-liners and these headlines and these, you know, videos and stuff, it we have gotten rid of nuanced discussion um and it's just less likely to happen when we're talking about people's choices and um whether we should quote-unquote cancel them.
00:27:16
Steph
um So um I do have kind of a list of um discussion questions or guiding questions to our conversation. I'm gonna start with the question that Karen has been itching to to address.
00:27:29
Steph
So question number one I have is, are people ever really canceled?
Are Individuals Truly Canceled?
00:27:34
karenstansfield
Boom.
00:27:36
Steph
And I do,
00:27:36
karenstansfield
We're starting with the biggest question first. so
00:27:39
Steph
Yeah, I mean, let's yeah let's let's get right into it. So I'm going to open up to you, Karen, if you um have a response to that.
00:27:45
karenstansfield
Yeah. Well, what Steph is alluding to is I feel like yeah we've talked about our group chat that kind of spawned this whole thing. and um And Bob and I, my husband and I have debated this a lot because I think he gets irritated with cancel culture in the sense that um Like he doesn't think it's fair to cancel someone's entire career based on potentially one bad decision or bad action. And I think eventually we'll talk about justice and like, you know, in a separate episode, like the idea of justice in this country. um I have, my thinking on this has dramatically evolved over the years around like,
00:28:34
karenstansfield
um justice and like someone paying for their actions if you will. And so I totally understand the argument of like it's so not fair to take to like put one moment under a microscope and judge someone's entire character for that and potentially ruin their career for that.
00:28:50
Manni
That's it.
00:28:56
karenstansfield
Now we can have a discussion of like, is that one moment truly just one moment or is that indicative of another problem? However, i my argument with Bob and with the two of you, I think has always been like, I don't actually think people are really canceled. Like I think there is, because of social media and the proliferation of information, there is always both sides of the argument. And so even if a certain group of people cancels um um R. Kelly, I'm going to use as an example, um and they've taken him off the radio and they've taken him off like the suggested plays on Spotify and Pandora and stuff.
00:29:47
karenstansfield
there's this other group of people who are like, no, fuck you. I like this person. Or I disagree with the way that this all went down. And they actually like rally around that person. And so I feel like No one's ever, oh, Tucker Carlson is a great example, right? Like he was kicked off Fox News. He, you know, all these texts came out about the things that he say on TV aren't really the things that he thinks. And then he gets this like web show. I don't really follow.
00:30:17
karenstansfield
him so I don't really like know the details of it, but like he is fine. He's not canceled. He was canceled from Fox News in the sense that he was fired from his job. And now he is making Boku bucks doing basically the same thing for basically a different network. And so anyways, I just firmly believe there are very few examples of when somebody is like really, really canceled and maybe the only one that I could think of that seems to be really canceled was Matt Lauer, which is weird.
00:30:47
Steph
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:30:49
karenstansfield
Cause like, yeah, he was a creep, but like all of these people we're talking about were creeps and they are fine except for him. But I haven't researched this. I don't know if Matt Lauer is actually canceled.
00:31:00
Steph
I did include an article about Matt Lauer and he is pretty canceled because he he like what have look yeah like he lives like a quiet life with his fiance and he's not in the public
00:31:05
karenstansfield
Okay. Sorry, Matt.
Cancel Culture's Influence on Future Generations
00:31:15
Steph
eye.
00:31:15
Steph
know Though there's rumblings that people think that he might, I think i believe Hoda Cobb is leading the Today Show and there's people one speculating maybe he might come back for that, but it doesn't, but I don't know.
00:31:23
Manni
yeah
00:31:27
karenstansfield
No way.
00:31:28
Steph
I know, right?
00:31:29
karenstansfield
Why would they bring him back?
00:31:29
Steph
I don't know.
00:31:31
Manni
but
00:31:31
Steph
I don't know. I just saw that what in my research for for this, but I think he truly is canceled. Do you guys think Bill Cosby is canceled? I feel like he is.
00:31:40
Manni
Can I respond to the question?
00:31:41
Steph
Sure. Yes.
00:31:41
karenstansfield
yeah
00:31:42
Manni
Okay, yeah um so I think
00:31:43
Steph
All right. We skipped over.
00:31:47
Manni
I hear Karen's point. um And I'll take it to like an opposite end of the spectrum. You guys know that I love reality TV. I love Bravo. And there are a couple of shows. I'm thinking of Vanderpump Rules, one of my favorite, ah where some of the characters, I think it was around 2020, there was um conversations that got leaked about two people, I think it was Jax, three people, Jax, Dossie and Kristen, about their like text messages or their way that they treated a Black um woman who used to be on the show.
00:32:30
Manni
And Bravo during that moment ah told these three characters that they could not come back onto Vanderpump Rules. And people supported that. Again, it was right at the height of George Floyd movement and COVID and all that stuff.
00:32:47
Manni
I want to say last year, two of those people got another show on Bravo TV, a spin-off.
00:32:56
Steph
It's cool.
00:32:57
karenstansfield
o
00:32:58
Manni
and a pump rules called the Valley. And so there was grumblings of like, are we supposed to just forget like that?
00:33:01
Steph
Okay.
00:33:04
Manni
This is all that they were.
00:33:05
karenstansfield
Yeah. They were like, give it a few years and you'll be fine.
00:33:09
Manni
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:33:09
Steph
And first.
00:33:09
Manni
So like, I see your point in like um Hollywood and ah the media. And I think I listened to a clip last night and I'll if I can remember it and link it in to our show notes, I will.
00:33:26
Manni
But Basically, what the guy was saying and the essence of what he was saying is that this is about more time. So in the moment, it might seem like these people are not canceled.
00:33:41
Manni
However, it is small, many revolutions that are happening right now.
00:33:44
Steph
Oh. Oh.
00:33:47
Manni
So in the case of R. Kelly, right, there is going to be a generation that never listens to his music because we are starting that process of filtering him out of our consciousness because we believe as a society that what he did to Little Girls was wrong.
00:34:08
Manni
And so if the larger, more
00:34:11
karenstansfield
And grown women.
00:34:11
Manni
powerful organizations are not, are going to continue to do his music or play his music, you're not going to list, you're not going to find R. Kelly playing at like my Valverneur or anytime in my house, right? So there's going to be a generation of, of kiddos who grow up being like, who? You know, because his music isn't going to transcend time. Same with the Me Too movement, right? Same with what we're seeing, although you know we can say arguably that like the ah conservatives are trying to pull that out, the DEI stuff, right? there's There's these many revolutions that are currently happening and taking hold, and it is going to take time for those to really pick up momentum and for us to actually see cause and effect.
00:34:54
Manni
And that's why we study history, right? It's not like it's not like all those things that we studied in high school history class happened over the course of two years, three years, four years, even 10 years. We're talking about 20, 30, 40 years time when we're talking about actual change that was affected into the consciousness of humanity.
Effectiveness of Cancel Culture in Systemic Change
00:35:13
Manni
So I think when we're talking about cancel culture, it's more of a conversation about like, are we talking about like immediacy? Or are we talking about like,
00:35:22
Manni
like decades, are we talking about centuries? What, how are we like defining that?
00:35:29
Steph
Here's my like follow-up to what you're saying, or or it kind of leads me to a question. Because you're saying, like when you bring up R. Kelly, and we're just going to talk about the fact that there's going to be generate, the following follow-up generation will not be exposed to his music. But so here, I have a quote that's like, it says, when you have these forms of public shaming,
00:35:52
Steph
um filming these interactions it turns social issues into something that is completely individualized it puts great responsibility on an individual it does not always encourage actual societal change we haven't taken care of the larger institutional or systemic
00:36:06
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm. Yes.
00:36:10
Steph
issues. And so while R. Kelly might be canceled, and a generation might not um ever hear his music, what he did will continue to happen until we address the actual issue itself.
00:36:22
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:36:25
karenstansfield
jeff this
00:36:25
Steph
So that goes to like, my question is, my follow up question is, is canceling the music and the shows and the and the individual and effective way of affecting change?
00:36:35
karenstansfield
Yes. this is exactly when Manny, when you were talking, Steph, you read my mind because that is exactly what I was thinking. like when you're When you're talking about history and and that change takes decades you know or longer, centuries at times, to actually like take hold. In theory, I agree with that. However,
00:37:00
karenstansfield
um All of these people on this list that ah admittedly our readers, our listeners don't see, but I'm staring at like Bill Cosby, Matt Lauer, P Diddy, Harvey Weinstein, R Kelly, Michael Jackson, these are all sex.
00:37:16
Manni
Put Michael Jackson on. that sad
00:37:19
karenstansfield
I am, I'm doing it.
00:37:20
Steph
Did you say take him off?
00:37:21
karenstansfield
I'm doing it.
00:37:22
Manni
I said, don't put Michael Jackson on that list.
00:37:22
karenstansfield
These are all, but
00:37:23
Manni
No, I'm just...
00:37:23
Steph
Did you notice that like the bullet pointer list, he wasn't on there?
00:37:26
Manni
Right, actors.
00:37:26
karenstansfield
I know, I know, which is why I intentionally put him back on there.
00:37:27
Steph
And I could and i also, I also ended like, and I said, please do not get me started. Like you don't want me to do this.
00:37:34
karenstansfield
I know, but hear me out. These are all sexual predators. These are all sexual predators.
00:37:39
Steph
Sorry. Sorry. We just digressed.
00:37:41
Manni
Yeah, we did, but that's okay.
00:37:43
karenstansfield
But but I guess my point is, oh no.
00:37:44
Steph
Karen.
00:37:46
Manni
Oh no, did we lose her?
00:37:47
Steph
Oh no.
00:37:49
Manni
Oh my gosh, I think that she froze out.
00:37:52
karenstansfield
No.
00:37:52
Steph
oh
00:37:52
Manni
What do we do?
00:38:01
karenstansfield
Well, that was fun. Lost my connection. I'm going to try to pick up where we left off. ah So what I was saying is all these people on this list have a common theme, which is sexual predation.
00:38:19
karenstansfield
And is predation work?
00:38:21
Manni
I don't know, but I love the way it moves up your tongue.
00:38:21
karenstansfield
And
00:38:23
Steph
yeah i accept
00:38:25
Manni
yeah
00:38:25
karenstansfield
and um And because of that, ah it makes me think about the course of human history. And I'm gonna go like way big picture here.
00:38:37
karenstansfield
But in all of human history, we have um themes of like rape and abuse of women and children, I believe.
00:38:47
Steph
I like it. Yeah. I accept.
00:38:51
karenstansfield
And so Manny, your point about like, ah you know It takes years for for things to change. I would i would love to believe that you know over time there are like there is progress against this, but it still makes me feel like, but they're still doing the same thing.
00:39:13
karenstansfield
and
00:39:16
karenstansfield
you know, seemingly getting away with it. And so then like, does this really change anything? I don't know. I'm being a little bit cynical or or pessimistic, I feel like, but it does make me feel like, um so we cancel R.
00:39:30
karenstansfield
Kelly, but then like, you know, the men in power continue to do whatever they want
Racial Dynamics in Cancel Culture
00:39:34
Steph
and like that's where I was going is also you know because you know and I don't know if it's my what I'm interested in and all that kind of stuff but I was really having a hard time like with the fact that my list of people who are on on here are a lot of Black people.
00:39:34
karenstansfield
and seemingly get away with it.
00:39:52
Steph
And so I don't know, like, you know, because if we're talking about sexual predators, um the President of the United States.
00:39:52
Manni
Yep.
00:39:59
Manni
Yep.
00:40:01
Manni
No.
00:40:02
Steph
um And so I just am like, how do we as a society decide who we cancel? And if, and again, the issue itself still persists.
00:40:15
Steph
um the issue, the the occurrence still persists. We still have to address people.
00:40:21
Manni
right
00:40:21
Steph
um I think what has changed, or one positive, is the openness of you know like talking about, like the from the victim's perspective, um like, believe believe her, believe him.
00:40:36
Manni
Right, right.
00:40:37
Steph
um I feel like conversation has has changed. and I think that that's a good thing. um And so because I feel like, you know, you know what what comes to mind? Like, I ah don't it's not perfectly related.
00:40:49
Steph
But you know how, like, when we were younger, we would be like your and now you know And now we can say like you say period, menstruation, cramps, you know flow, all that stuff.
00:40:58
Manni
yeah Right, right.
00:40:58
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:41:01
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:41:02
Manni
right
00:41:02
Steph
Same thing with you know victims being able to say, I was raped, abused, whatever.
00:41:07
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:41:08
Steph
And I do think the conversation has changed and for the better.
00:41:11
Manni
Right.
00:41:12
Steph
But I don't know, in this country, the conversation.
00:41:12
Manni
Right.
00:41:12
karenstansfield
In this country.
00:41:16
Steph
I'm not saying like, you know.
00:41:17
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:41:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:41:18
karenstansfield
Yeah, but and I do appreciate, I think more recently, certainly since we were growing up, the conversation has changed to um in instead of making a woman responsible for her own body and saying she was asking for it, ah we are now saying um boys need to be responsible for their body and their action.
00:41:24
Steph
have
00:41:33
Steph
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:41:41
Manni
great Right.
00:41:42
karenstansfield
And we shouldn't be putting the weight of the world effectively on women and saying that men can't control themselves. And so therefore it's a woman's responsibility to protect herself.
00:41:54
karenstansfield
I think like that has shifted wildly in this country, but we still have this P Diddy shit coming out where
00:41:59
Manni
Right.
00:42:05
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:06
karenstansfield
ah Lord knows who all is going to be on that list.
00:42:09
Steph
I'm not ready.
00:42:09
karenstansfield
I don't follow it very closely, but it's about to go down.
00:42:11
Manni
I'm not ready. to
00:42:12
Steph
not ready.
00:42:14
karenstansfield
And Jeffrey Epstein, oh, there's a white guy, there you go.
00:42:16
Steph
I committed suicide.
00:42:17
karenstansfield
um you know like it's like It's right horrifying to think about the levels that this goes to, which like if it's happening there,
00:42:30
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:31
karenstansfield
Where isn't it happening? So we can talk about it in all the right ways, but is behavior actually changing?
00:42:33
Manni
oh Well, I think I think that that goes back to the quote of like, it puts great responsibility on an individual.
00:42:44
Steph
Individual.
00:42:45
Manni
Right. um And that's, I think is the point of like that these systems only operate and have power because we put faith and belief into these systems. So like, I think that's the point of like not listening to the music of like canceling our subscriptions. Like, I think that's the point of it of like, if they can't capitalize off of our participation,
00:43:10
Manni
then they're forced to change. It is going to take a long time, but because there are so many people who are influenced by it, but I think that like I can't expect
00:43:15
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:43:24
Manni
the music industry to raise my son, right? Like I'm going to have to have those conversations in my own household. And so what these clickbaity, but also trendy and um these conversations in social media do is they do name it.
00:43:43
Manni
because I think that is the problem that we didn't have before is victims, small children, they didn't know how to name these things that were happening to them because they were so normalized. So now we have a vocabulary in our human consciousness where it's like, what happened to you is actually called this. This looks like these are the signs and here's how you get support for that, right?
00:44:06
Manni
And the more that we're able to name the behavior, the but more or the less power we give to the perpetrator.
00:44:13
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:44:15
Manni
And so I think, I don't know, I think that that's, I think this is also
Systemic Issues and Individual Reputations
00:44:22
Manni
convoluted because of the systemic and institutional like power that we're giving to some of these industries, but now that we are like, whoa, like our Kelly should never have been in that music video with Aaliyah, right?
00:44:38
Manni
Like the next time that we see that or like even what ah Justin Bieber is um one who's been now with all the ditty stuff. It's like, whoa, like for us, like how we consumed the content was like, oh, that's so cool.
00:44:52
Manni
Look at this 12 year old with this grown person.
00:44:53
Steph
general in here
00:44:55
Manni
And now it's like, what the,
00:44:55
Steph
well Whoa!
00:44:58
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:44:58
Manni
right?
00:44:58
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:44:59
Manni
ah Actually, I just going back to our conversation last night, I just finished watching shrinking.
00:45:03
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:45:04
Manni
And there was a part in the last episode where he's like helping somebody and he's like using he's like trying, he's like just perplexed, right? And he's like saying all these things. And it's all wrong, right?
00:45:15
Manni
But they're like, in the writing, they're like showing, right? Like how saying those things are like no longer appropriate like those things that we used to do and we used to like make be funny like those those jokes and things are not they're actually more harmful and we name them now and we're aware of
00:45:37
Steph
what about though like not though you this is that's the not though that's good i i feel that that i feel it i and it does make me like that's kind of i kind of like i don't mean to jump ahead but that would be my aha moment in that like their the conversations have changed. We're naming it. We are viewing relationships between adults and um young people differently now. So like, you know, that was really refreshing to think about. But I can't help but like
00:46:08
Steph
think of my be a little selfish and think of myself individually as you know, loving the song ignition, um loving the Cosby show, you know, when sometimes I catch little clips like people like, you know, a Claire Huxtable like, shakedown
00:46:26
Manni
Oh, yeah. When you said beginning, i i that had never occurred to me. It's canceling a series only.
00:46:32
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:46:32
Steph
a whole series when you have some excellent, um, actors and moments, you know, like, um, how did, like, what does that do for?
00:46:42
Manni
Yeah. fact like the point that Karen was saying about justice, right?
00:46:47
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:46:48
Manni
of like Your actions have so much more impact than on just you, right?
00:46:54
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:46:55
Manni
You do something like this, you jeopardize the future of all the people work who you worked with.
00:46:57
Steph
You have people around you.
Moral Authority and Generational Change
00:47:04
Manni
who now their whole reputation is tarnished, as well as the victims and as well as the families of the victims. It has so much more of an effect, right?
00:47:14
Manni
And this is it. And so.
00:47:16
karenstansfield
That's the systemic issue like of all of it.
00:47:20
Manni
Right.
00:47:21
karenstansfield
And like can you imagine being Bill Cosby's child?
00:47:21
Manni
Right.
00:47:21
Steph
You know.
00:47:25
Steph
Hmm.
00:47:26
karenstansfield
like To have that name it used to have so much power and now you're like you're probably shunned from spaces and opportunities. It's like for something that your parent did.
00:47:37
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:47:40
karenstansfield
like Yeah, the the ripple effect is massive.
00:47:41
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:47:44
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:47:44
Manni
Yeah, Steph, you also made me think about this ah Instagram like gif or meme or whatever where it's like what's something that feels ah completely illegal but isn't and like the comment is always like listening to R.
00:47:57
Manni
Kelly.
00:47:57
Steph
and
00:48:01
karenstansfield
It's so true, but why don't we feel that way about MJ?
00:48:01
Steph
period good
00:48:05
Steph
a
00:48:06
karenstansfield
I'm just saying.
00:48:06
Manni
and
00:48:07
Steph
I feel it.
00:48:07
Manni
That's not right.
00:48:08
Steph
I know.
00:48:09
Manni
You keep trying.
00:48:10
Steph
It's just.
00:48:10
Manni
And then, you know, reaching out every time you try to bring it up, so that is just...
00:48:11
karenstansfield
i know but I think we all do.
00:48:12
Steph
and Yes.
00:48:16
Manni
Don't.
00:48:18
Steph
Yeah.
00:48:19
Manni
yeah
00:48:19
Steph
Yeah. I have I have a hard time with that one.
00:48:21
Manni
Okay?
00:48:24
Steph
And yeah.
00:48:24
Manni
not Not ready.
00:48:26
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:48:27
Manni
That might be a different episode. We might have to do a whole thing to that.
00:48:29
Steph
Like that's just a whole episode to the King.
00:48:31
Manni
hey We're already at 48 minutes, and I got to get to a basketball game.
00:48:33
Steph
Yeah.
00:48:34
Manni
so
00:48:35
karenstansfield
ah
00:48:35
Steph
that's ah Okay. Well, I do feel like we, we touched on like the the heart of the, of my questions and I, so I want to turn it over to anyone who has an aha moment or a confessional. I kind of shared mine.
00:48:54
karenstansfield
I think the big one in my mind is this idea of um ah you know the current moment versus like the course of history. And cancel culture has the potential to impact real meaningful change. And it's not it maybe it's not necessarily about a specific individual in a specific moment, but just the broader themes and the systems that enabled that.
00:49:25
karenstansfield
um I'm feeling very cynical about it today, so I i feel like I don't necessarily have the confidence that that it will be true, but it does give me a little bit of hope potentially that um some of these actions will actually create the opportunity for real change.
00:49:30
Manni
Yeah.
00:49:49
karenstansfield
I guess we'll see.
00:49:49
Manni
I think that too, you know, and not that I'm like all rainbows and butterflies, but I think that that is like the point of like, um you know, the quote that we just read about individual, like it gives you kind of a sense of purpose, right?
00:50:01
Manni
Of like, it's not necessarily, maybe it's not my, I wish that I, we grew up in the heal of the world. like ten You really are cynical, calm down, okay?
00:50:11
karenstansfield
Oh, what a joke that was. Sorry in hindsight.
00:50:14
Steph
Mmhmm. Oh my gosh.
00:50:16
Manni
yeah
00:50:18
karenstansfield
Sorry, I'm sorry.
00:50:20
Manni
Um so but that's the point of like that like we as millennials are like uncovering that that was a little bit there was definitely um like a little bit and like misconstrued there right um but maybe our purpose isn't that we get to live in the like you know of like in this beautiful rainbow world but we are really experiencing
00:50:20
karenstansfield
but
00:50:42
Manni
you know some of the laws that were put into place um to make sure that those um hateful things didn't happen.
00:50:42
Steph
You're up.
00:50:49
Manni
And and and and there's still we're still a generation away from that. So that doesn't stop our purpose from from fighting for it, because we want our future generation to grow up living that outcome.
00:51:04
Manni
um And then I think that there's just something that's just gonna sit with me and this is why I love our conversations is because this to me is a deeper conversation about moral authority. And why do we give our moral authority away when it can be like I have ownership over that moral authority, right? And so we seek outside of ourselves to to tell us like who's right and who's wrong.
00:51:33
Manni
And really, that moral authority, that moral compass can be built inside of ourselves if we stop going outside of ourselves to find it. And we'll be able to have a greater, more powerful voice if we trust our own moral authority, rather than going back to Allison and the how we started this episode, rather than relying on celebrities to tell us how we should navigate life.
00:51:51
karenstansfield
a
00:51:58
Steph
here
00:52:00
karenstansfield
Yeah, I'm going to have to like listen back to this and ponder that.
00:52:00
Steph
Wow. Well,
00:52:04
karenstansfield
So that that was deep.
00:52:04
Steph
Mm-hmm. Wow, well, with that, we will wrap up our episode for today. Thank you for listening. Please follow us on Instagram. Like and subscribe to our channel, and we will see you next time.