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Why Can I Forgive This But Not That?
36 Plays2 months ago
Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen Podcast! This week we dive deep into the concept of justice, exploring the differences between vertical vs. horizontal morality and how these perspectives shape our legal and ethical systems. We trace the history of the justice system, from ancient laws to modern courts, and ask the fundamental question: Are humans innately good?
Join us as we examine how our views on justice have evolved, influenced by philosophy, religion, and societal change. Whether you're passionate about criminal justice reform, ethics, or philosophy, this episode offers a thought-provoking discussion on what fairness really means in today’s world. Listen now and challenge your perspective on justice!
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
You’re Wrong About podcast by Sarah Marshall. The episode is called “What even is Justice?”, it’s with Amanda Knox
https://www.aapl.org/docs/newsletter/N242hist_justice.htm
Book: The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander
13th - Watch 13TH | Netflix Official Site
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
Recommended
Transcript
Exploring Justice from Childhood to Adulthood
00:00:25
Speaker
Justice. An idea probably as old as humanity, but the way it is carried out has changed dramatically over the course of human history. I'll ask you to think, what did justice look like to you as a child?
00:00:42
Speaker
Now, what did justice what do you think justice means as an adult? We will explore this in today's episode of You Can Call Me Karen.
00:01:03
Speaker
Welcome, welcome. i am your host, Karen, and I am joined by my intelligent, funny, beautiful, kind, sometimes a little sassy co-host, Steph.
00:01:18
Speaker
Good morning. Well, and whatever time of day it is for you. morning. Good morning.
00:01:27
Speaker
You can be better than that. Good. ah Good morning.
Social Media Activism: Advocacy or 'Karen'?
00:01:36
Speaker
I mean, literally, Manny was just saying she's feeling a little low energy today.
00:01:43
Speaker
but i am, but i know how to I know how to pull it out. yeah
00:01:50
Speaker
ah You have three kids. I would argue you don't. don't.
00:01:58
Speaker
Oh, anyways. um Yeah, as you heard at the top, we are going to talk about justice today, which feels kind of deep for what for us is a Sunday morning. Yeah, just little. But we're doing it.
00:02:12
Speaker
Before we do that, you know we got to hear, who you calling Karen? Who's kicking us off? Who you calling You know what? I would like to go first because... Okay.
00:02:26
Speaker
Okay. um I'm going to go first because mine, again, is... If you listened to a previous episode, it was related to my adventures on the Facebook.
00:02:38
Speaker
And... Not me. Do you remember when it was called the Facebook? I do. um it's so... um it's another situation on Facebook.
00:02:50
Speaker
You gotta get out of there. I know. so It's like a sign that it's, I'm done. Like, I need to be done, but I i can't be. So here we are. um So, um guess what?
00:03:02
Speaker
What? I'm the Karen. Ah! You're Karen? I'm Karen. I'm ready. Yeah.
Rethinking Cancel Culture and Social Platforms
00:03:11
Speaker
This guy I'm friends with on Facebook, um,
00:03:15
Speaker
Posted some super, super ah transphobic posts. It was like one of those videos that I would imagine plays on like Breitbart or something showing it said, well you know what I mean? It was basically like, watch this male who was allowed to play girls basketball injure this player. And it was like a video. And I was just like, it just like,
00:03:43
Speaker
my blood just boiled and so I think you know our definition of Karen is like someone who isn't able to mind their own business and I feel like on social media kind of have a couple choices you can look at something and just scroll on you can unfriend you can unfollow like there's a lot of ways that you could just get yourself out of that situation um but I reported it
00:04:16
Speaker
That is not what I expected. You guys, there's a button that you can push where you can say that you can report it as I reported it violent and hateful.
00:04:29
Speaker
Oh my gosh. and like it asks you like follow questions and I answered them all. Like I
00:04:40
Speaker
Wait, you got to give us one of the follow-up questions. What was one of the follow-up that you can remember? It was basically like, what category would you characterize this as? And it was like, is it hateful? Is it violent? Is it this? And so I selected like hate speech or something like that. And then it was like, do you consider this harmful? And I clicked yes.
00:05:00
Speaker
And I like, yeah. And um it's like, what would you like us to do? And I don't remember what like their follow-up was. I did get a report back. Like, A little bit later, they they're like, just want to let you know that we followed up with a report. The post was not removed, but we did consider it if you think we made but a mistake.
00:05:20
Speaker
And I was like, oh, great. Thanks for your help, Facebook. and I think you made a mistake, but I just like left it. But I mean, i don't know. Thank you. I know.
00:05:31
Speaker
thank you i know I just, something in me just flipped a switch and I was like, I'm done with this freaking nonsense. And I unfollowed him and good reported him.
00:05:46
Speaker
You know, you're making me think about a situation that I, it was in a couple of weeks ago. And I was thinking about our podcast in this similar way of like, We, our last episode, we talked about like gossip, right?
00:06:00
Speaker
And like, what is the danger of gossip? But we put a little bit of levity on it because we were talking about like celebrities, right? But like, I think I struggle with like the definition of a Karen because like, in this situation, you know, like my default would be like with you, like just to like gossip about it and be like, like, can you believe that this person did it?
00:06:24
Speaker
Mm-hmm. When there are actual like structural like procedures that we can go through to make change and to be of action, and to have solution.
00:06:37
Speaker
And because we have this definition of being a Karen, sometimes i don't use those tools to make change because don't.
00:06:49
Speaker
feel like I'm gonna be a Karen, right? And so like, I just kind of, i i have a hard time with like what, um what, It means to like actually step up and ah speak and advocate because we have labeled like speech and advocacy and things like this as being care and behavior.
00:07:14
Speaker
So then I just default to gossip and then nothing of real change actually occurs. Does that make sense?
Lessons from 'Selena': Grace in Confrontation
00:07:21
Speaker
Like, don't know. Yeah, that's interesting. i was thinking about that when talking stuff.
00:07:29
Speaker
I kind of was thinking along similar lines, it's like the the report feature is there for a reason. And so if we're not using it, then what's the point?
00:07:45
Speaker
But then also you report it and they say nothing really nothing happened. happens And I didn't honestly expect anything to happen. I just was like, i I'd like i like some attention, negative attention be drawn to this.
00:08:01
Speaker
And if it pings his account, um good. Like, I don't know. Yeah.
00:08:12
Speaker
But I think this goes back to two, like our, a couple of episodes ago when we talked about like cancel culture and how you like introduced the story of like, I think this means I need to be done with Facebook yeah of like that, like if you're not, if you have a company or an industry that says it um is going to provide some sort of service and you no longer are providing that kind of service, then I do have the authority and the right to walk away from that. And like, right if more people um like understand that, then like we actually give ourselves the power back and we decrease the power of these like social media platforms as what we were talking about, like a few months back with like cancel culture, you know?
00:08:59
Speaker
hey o Wow. That one really made me think.
Community Shoutout: Supporting the Podcast
00:09:04
Speaker
That was good. think that, I think that that was a, you know what? This is making me think also about like, we got our results back from that survey of like, what do we call like a nice Karen?
00:09:16
Speaker
We got a couple of options here. Well, um there was no one real winner. was all over the place. We had Ruth, a vote for Ruth by our girl, you know,
00:09:32
Speaker
na yeah And then we have number two. Speaking of shout outs, I do want to give a shout out to my friend, Maggie Lugman, who is an avid listener of this podcast.
00:09:47
Speaker
I was with her last week at a social event and she like every person who came up to her was like, do you know monica she is a part of this really like really great podcast called you can call me care and she was just supporting us endorsing us um and maggie she left us a review what i know but it's she's she's like I don't know. It's a hard one between her and Bri. She's like, Bri.
00:10:20
Speaker
So I want to shout out Maggie. Also, we we recognize that that was our um anniversary from when we first met a year ago. So happy anniversary, Maggie. This is our anniversary present.
00:10:34
Speaker
So cute. Awesome. Thanks, Steph. So Manny, who's your Karen of the week?
Are Humans Innately Good?
00:10:41
Speaker
Um, so my Karen is going to be a fictional character, Karen, but, um, I'm going to take it all the way back to, um, this one part in one of my favorite movies.
00:10:53
Speaker
I don't know what, I don't know what prompted me to like have this as my Karen, but actually I kind of do, but, um, that's neither here nor there right now. Um, so Karen, I wonder if you've even seen this movie. So, um, Selena.
00:11:06
Speaker
soina Selena. Selena. Anything for Selena. Selena. Steph, you just got so bright and like your eyes just lit all the way up. That movie is just, I love it with all my heart.
00:11:27
Speaker
Me too. I love that movie so much. It's definitely one of my favorites. Yeah. Um, So there's this one part for um those of you who are like Karen and deprived of great pop cultural cinema.
00:11:45
Speaker
There's this one part where c Selena has just kind of like hit a stride where she's becoming a little bit more famous and she's invited to the Grammys.
00:11:55
Speaker
So she is um in l la at like a mall and she's She is shopping for an outfit for the Grammys and she is um going to one of like the fancier stores.
00:12:13
Speaker
And these two white women are like watching her and like, you know, you know how people, how like, what is that word called where you're like being watched in the store and like making sure that she doesn't.
00:12:28
Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. They're like profiling her around the store. And they even, I think, make a comment of like, can you like afford that kind of thing?
00:12:40
Speaker
And um she like goes, you know, her and her friend are like, can we just have a dressing room? You know, like we didn't ask you about how much it cost. We just want to know if we can go into the fitting room and wear the and try on the outfit.
00:12:54
Speaker
Thank you. So she goes in and on her way to the dressing room, somebody notices her. And then all the um this whole scene like transpires of like everyone in the mall is like, oh my God, Selena's here, Selena's here, Selena's here. And like, you just see all these people like start to scramble. Then all of a sudden when she comes um out of the dressing room, it's like this huge crowd of people like Selena, Selena.
00:13:21
Speaker
It's like all different demographics, like asking for her autograph. And um you see her like going out and signing the autographs and like the white women are like looking on like, what the heck is happening here, you know?
00:13:34
Speaker
and she just turns to them and is like, we don't need the dress. Thanks. Yes.
Justice, Forgiveness, and Legal System Effectiveness
00:13:39
Speaker
It is like wink to her friend. Yes. yeah is weak to her friend like yeah the cutest wink to her friend she was like yeah her friend was trying on the dress of like and she's like do you like it to her friends as she's like she's signing the autographs and she's like and she's like we don't need the dress thanks and then winks and it was like my favorite moment of like cinema in that movie and one that And like, I don't know why. i think it's because like, iy like aspire to be that graceful in a moment when, um when, and if a Karen treats me that way, like, I just want to be able to have that much like stoicism to just like be like, yeah.
00:14:21
Speaker
fuck you and give a wink like we we don't need it thanks yeah i'm not that cool for sure i wish i could it's like pretty woman yeah i was like i knew there was a reference that i could relate this to My coworker and I actually just talked about the pretty woman thing because um my school has been bringing in food trucks for lunch every Friday for the teachers because like we have 30 minutes minus mightus make heating up your lunch to eat.
00:14:55
Speaker
And so we never really can go out to lunch. And so um our administrator started bringing in food trucks for us on Fridays, which has been kind of cool. That's cool. And my coworker ordered something and The food was not right. Like they messed the order so bad and like, and i don't know.
00:15:13
Speaker
And so the next time that this, that same food truck came again and she was I am not ordering from there. And so she placed an order for like DoorDash. and got all of like the people in her hallway to order the same thing. And um so I was walking with her and she went and got her DoorDash order. And it was literally like two big old bags of food from where she wanted to.
00:15:37
Speaker
And she was like, I should walk past the food truck. Big mistake.
00:15:46
Speaker
I was like go out there and do it. I'll hold the door open for you. Big mistake. Huge. Huge.
00:15:57
Speaker
Oh, so good. I also have not seen um Pretty Woman, but I do know the scene. I do know the scene that we're referencing. But I just want to be clear to our listeners. I am an equal opportunity employer. I do not watch any movies.
00:16:14
Speaker
You're killing me on that one, though. I know. I'm sorry. The world is happening. Our stock just went down. Wait a second. we listen so wait a second
00:16:29
Speaker
Pretty woman. i'm ah My mom is one of them, by the way. She's like, I haven't seen it either.
00:16:37
Speaker
i mean, she's the one who raised me. So thanks, mama. All right. Well, those are your Karens for the week. Awesome. Okay. Well,
00:16:55
Speaker
awesome okay well Now that we have heard about our Karens, we are diving into
Personal Justice Experiences and Grudges
00:17:00
Speaker
our topics. So today I want to talk about justice, you know, just another light topic for the week.
00:17:07
Speaker
um This is actually something that I added to our Google Doc, like at the very inception of the idea of this podcast. um And it's because ah i actually listened to another podcast.
00:17:22
Speaker
um It's You're Wrong About by Sarah Marshall. And she did an episode called What Even Is Justice with Amanda Knox? And um first of all, highly recommend it. We will link it. But second of all, it really like changed my mind about how I thought about justice.
00:17:41
Speaker
So, In preparing for today, i did a little bit of research of like the history of justice. And what I've learned is that I know, I know this is obvious, but I never thought about it. Like before, somewhere in the 500 to 600 BC range, humans actually carried out their own justice. There was no like formal legal system, right? So Hypothetically, if I was a farmer or something and someone came and and stole some of my crops, there was no system for me to take this up with. If I wanted justice, I would literally take it upon myself to find that person, right or wrong, if I found the right person, and then give them the quote, punishment that I thought would be fit for the crime that they committed.
00:18:29
Speaker
So it's kind of wild, yeah, to think about the way that, you know, for most of human history, the way that justice was carried out. And then it was... Isn't that Hammurabi's code?
00:18:40
Speaker
Like an eye for an eye? Oh, I did not know whose code it was, but... um Yeah, I think that's Hammurabi's code, like an eye for an eye. And then it changed with Christianity when... No, it wasn't. It wasn't Christianity specifically. This actually was in the...
00:18:58
Speaker
um What was it? The fifth century B.C., sixth century B.C. And no, I'm saying like it used like Hammurabi's code was like how people used to um like what you're saying.
00:19:12
Speaker
I'm agreeing with that. I'm saying the shift of like an eye for an eye people, people ah like society started to like say like with Christianity, I guess. No, it wasn't Christianity that sparked it.
00:19:30
Speaker
It was before it was the sixth century BC in Athens. It was like the Greek empire where the modern legal system actually started, where we moved away for from eye for an eye.
00:19:44
Speaker
that's what i That's what I read yesterday. Yeah. Well, I taught history for a really long time and you're wrong. ah well So I'm just kidding. it But they are, but Athens in yes, so similar like time. Like it's not, it's not a direct, I'm saying that like the ah code of Hammurabi really started like to end.
00:20:09
Speaker
around like Greece could, Greece might've been the start of like the legal system, but I'm saying like with the whole eye for an eye, like the the distinct ending, I believe historically is once the Roman empire started to bring in Christianity.
00:20:27
Speaker
Interesting. So Greece very very could have been the start of like the legal system and punishment and everything, but I'm saying the Hammurabi's code started to really fade out with. Okay. I will believe you. I'm an empire.
00:20:39
Speaker
Thank you. But I want to get to modern day. We're not going to spend our time in 500 BC. So as as we all know, today we have a legal system and it includes courts and precedent and punishments that theoretically fit the crime and all of those lovely things that make up our justice system today.
00:21:03
Speaker
um And because, you know, we are taught that from a young age and I grew up in the United States and I am a serious rule follower, I don't know which came first.
00:21:15
Speaker
I grew up with like this really strong feeling Or like need for justice for things to feel just um like if if you did something bad in my mind, I would think you should have to pay for it like you should have to have some kind of um quote punishment, you know that fits the crime and if you.
00:21:38
Speaker
did something that I personally thought was was morally or ethically wrong against, you know, like my morals, then i would find it really hard and ah if not impossible to to like forgive someone for that crime.
00:21:54
Speaker
Can I interrupt you for a hot second? Because I have found, and Manny, maybe you can speak to this too, but, you know, as teachers, when you're going through, like, education, like, classes to become a teacher, they talk a lot about fairness and...
00:22:12
Speaker
ah hey Because students want to feel like they're in an equitable, like fair space. And I think it's really common. I know Karen, you were identified as gifted, like particularly gifted students tend to really like like hone in on the fairness and that's not right. And that's not like fair. And so when you were saying that, I was like, well, yeah, I'm sure you did care a lot about. Yeah.
00:22:39
Speaker
ah You were gifted and. um yeah So anyway, technicalably I wasn't gifted. Technically I was not one of the. gift Girl, if you, if you were, you are gifted. I'm telling i'm still salty about that. Clearly.
00:22:53
Speaker
i Cause it wasn't fair.
Forgiveness Journey: Spirituality and Self-Awareness
00:22:59
Speaker
Yeah. I was trying to interrupt, but that was when you were saying that I was like, I'm sure. bet. I know. Well, it's funny you say that because literally like I was just about to be like huge surprise that I that I thought I liked like quote law and order.
00:23:15
Speaker
But it's interesting. So like a few years ago, i listened. i think it was a few years ago. I listened to that. You're wrong about podcast. And I had Amanda Knox on there and she's been doing a lot of work on, um, and on, you know, justice and like, what does that mean? um And it it really flipped a switch for me on this topic. It made me wonder, like why does one moment of someone's life potentially define who they are four for forever?
00:23:46
Speaker
It's crazy to think about in that context. like We all make mistakes. um Our system is theoretically designed to like quantify the gravity of your mistake and then assign a form of payment that's equal to that crime. like That is the I guess, underlying principle so that you should at the end of that payment, whether it's money or time or you know something else, you should have paid for your crime and be and like no longer held responsible for that. So then why, you know, why do we hold on to whatever feelings are associated with that? And I guess,
00:24:23
Speaker
I just wanted to kind of like tee that up because for me, I always thought, um, like I always kind of like held a grudge on people, you know, even, ah even if they've quote served their time, I'm curious how you two feel just like generally about justice.
00:24:41
Speaker
Are you able to forgive someone after, you know, after they've paid for their deed or, um Or I'm wondering if there's like variation in your minds of like, if it's a smaller thing versus something that you deem larger and how do you define those two things?
00:25:00
Speaker
Yeah, i think I think there's two different questions here and how I'm hearing it. um are So one piece of this is about the prison system, it seems like.
00:25:15
Speaker
um for when you're talking about like why do we as a society like hold a grudge and like your one how did you put it like your one crime defines you for the rest of your life I feel like that is are you saying that for like the prison system and not criminals not necessarily because I think of this like on a personal level too like if someone in your life does something to hurt you um personally Would, do you like, do you hold that grudge for forever? Is there ever a point in time where you feel like somebody has paid for their sins, for lack of a better term?
00:25:55
Speaker
You know, it can be, it could be smaller, but this is where I'm getting of like the, is there variation depending on the magnitude of the bad deed? And then how do you define that magnitude? Because something small could be something really big to the next person.
00:26:10
Speaker
Mm-hmm.
00:26:13
Speaker
um Okay, I have several thoughts. um Lay it on me. So one, um I'll just start with the prison system, because that's what's really coming through for me. um When you talk about like, once they've paid for their crime, shouldn't that be enough?
00:26:29
Speaker
And so, you know, and obviously, like everything is a pipeline to the prison system. When Not obviously, it might not be that obvious to people. But, you know, when we're thinking about when someone gets released from prison and how they, I mean, there's laws, different states have different laws now, but like, you know, can't vote.
00:26:48
Speaker
You can't. vote you can't Um, you can't, in some places, New Jersey is different now, but in some places, like, you know, the question of like, have you ever been arrested before? Right. So like that on like a job application or for trying to purchase a house, like all these things, um, not all these things, but questions like that, that get you so far, um, in a process of trying to restore your life. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:27:15
Speaker
are no longer, um you can't you cannot move forward in trying to reacclimate yourself into society because systems and industries have these questions that will eliminate you from being able to get access to ah reasonable resources to be able to move forward from the crime that you just committed. there and so there is systemically an issue with forgiveness that then trickles down into the mindset of our society because we feel justified in saying that, well, like you don't want a criminal living in your neighborhood. Like you don't want this person being your next door neighbor. Right. And so um I think that it all in in my opinion,
00:28:04
Speaker
Where I began to change my thinking in this is when i read the New Jim Crow about 10 or 11 years ago and watched the movie 13th.
00:28:15
Speaker
Those two artifacts completely awakened me to how we have...
00:28:26
Speaker
um really criminalized, very normal behavior. And I feel not normal, like human behavior. And I feel like the answer to your question isn't necessarily like, um,
00:28:46
Speaker
you know, about like the, um you know, should we be judging or do we have the authority to judge people about their crimes? It's more, i was just lucky enough not to get caught in the first place. Right.
00:29:04
Speaker
And so that's, I think the, like the, the precursor to this of like, I might be able to sit up here and say, I don't want that person, dah, dah, dah, but at the end of the day, all of us have done some sort of behavior that yeah has put our, are um we where we have been menaced to society, we just didn't get caught.
00:29:31
Speaker
I have more thoughts, but I'll pause there and let Steph go. No, I love this.
00:29:38
Speaker
Yeah, I think the issue with our justice system is there is no path to like reinstate you. Like there's no um opportunity for like, like success again.
00:29:58
Speaker
um So like when you ask the question, do you hold a grudge? Well, the United States holds a grudge. The state of Ohio holds a grudge. The state of Illinois state of New Jersey holds a grudge.
00:30:11
Speaker
And no matter if, even if, you know, whoever might have been harmed has said, you know, they serve their time. i I'm, I'm done with this issue.
00:30:23
Speaker
There isn't ah a way for the state, the you know, our laws to allow for what is like, what, I can't think of the word I'm looking for, like repair, restored, like, yeah you know, rehabilitation. There's no, um, true because even if you, even just having a record, you know, you are more likely to be pulled over again. You're more likely to, um, it's just this vicious cycle that doesn't end.
00:30:51
Speaker
Um, on a personal note, like if you're asking about like grudges I am not really a grudge holder typically, but it's interesting because it just, it kind of depends, like you said, on the transgression, I guess, or how deeply, you know, you felt whatever it is that you felt.
00:31:15
Speaker
I know for me, if there is any sort of like acknowledgement or reflection that usually helps. Like if it's like, oh, I understand where you're coming from and I apologize truly, that usually is enough for me.
00:31:33
Speaker
But if there's like not really any sort of reflection or, you know, resolve, then it is difficult for me to like let go, I guess.
00:31:47
Speaker
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
00:31:50
Speaker
Yeah, i o but this is so somewhat why I brought the Christianity piece in in the beginning, because I feel like so much of this like,
00:32:01
Speaker
right spiritual for me. it's like a spiritual practice for me of like aligning myself with like, like higher principles and being able to like achieve like, like I honestly, I personally believe that forgiveness is a divine act. Like I, in the moments where I have forgiven some of the worst, most heinous things that have happened to me, I know that that was something that it it was a process that I had to go through internally. um i had to clean out a lot of venom. um
00:32:39
Speaker
It has it's had to start with me recognizing that I even had a resentment and that I was re-feeling these emotions.
00:32:52
Speaker
And and you know, like I feel very vulnerable right now and I feel really like raw and exposed, but like I am a part of a program where I go through and i and i and and i look at these certain instances that have happened to me in the past and we write them down on paper and we look at them and I talk to other people about them.
00:33:16
Speaker
And it wasn't until i actually found that as a solution and there's so much that goes into all of this, that I was able to truly forgive.
00:33:29
Speaker
um And I think part of that, going back to the religion stuff, is I had to find my own concept of something of a higher power as opposed to what religion had taught me.
00:33:44
Speaker
And so I think when we first were talking about this as an episode, I brought up the concept of moral um vertical versus horizontal morality and having like a ah moral code.
00:34:00
Speaker
And one of the things that stood out to me in this process of learning or relearning or new learning was that morality isn't good or bad.
00:34:15
Speaker
It's what is the moral of the story here? What is the lesson and I'm supposed to learn here? as opposed to i can identify something as good and can identify something as bad.
00:34:29
Speaker
And I feel so much more free knowing that I don't want that authority of being able to identify or hot art even place into a hierarchy what sins, quote unquote, or what bad behavior is worse than another.
Innate Goodness and Systemic Morality
00:34:46
Speaker
you know And once I was able to free myself of that,
00:34:50
Speaker
I was able to allow him more grace. And then i was able to like forgive and literally forgive like those memories, those painful experiences have quite literally been deleted from my mind, from my heart.
00:35:08
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. i don't's I am definitely not there and sounds like I have some work to do. It's interesting because there was a time when I was way more involved in the church and and Bible study, small groups, like all of that. and One of the messages that always resonated with me that grace like uh god's grace and we would always talk about the fact that like sin man creates level of sin so like you know so stealing is not as bad as ah like assault which is not as bad as murder which is not so man creates levels of sin but to god
00:35:58
Speaker
sin is like sin is sin and so no matter how big or small you have sinned and so god gives grace no matter what it is kind of a thing and i was with like that like i just that came to mind when you were saying to forgive is divine because you know only some higher power can help you process through like what we would label as a big transgression but we are human and human creates levels of yeah you know so i guess that's one of the things that still resonates with me um not to i don't have any faith but there's there's that's an aspect of my faith that i've held on to yeah yeah
00:36:45
Speaker
Yeah, like the quantifiable, like this is, you know, like that I i have to let go of because like- there you it I always want to put things through like a litmus test, right? Like if i if if I believe that this is wrong, then like on the flip, like if it were happening to me, then like I should still hold that standard.
00:37:10
Speaker
And like the quantifiable like um injustices, like I can, it never works and through the litmus test. Mm-hmm. you know? Um, and so I have to like, and, and that doesn't mean that like, i don't, I believe that like, you know, people should go out and like have this, like, you know, go out and like do all these harm. Like the purge.
00:37:34
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah i Like the purge. I think I should, can I define vertical and moral, uh, horizontal morality? So, um, And we can link this on um our episode.
00:37:47
Speaker
But um here, let me pull up this. Okay. So horizontal morality requires attuning to self and others with emotional maturity and responding with mutual respect. Mm-hmm.
00:38:02
Speaker
Vertical morality is the mindset that says rules and authority are more important than human rights, your personal wellbeing or the health of your horizontal um personal wellbeing or the health of your horizontal relationships. So um vertical morality is murder is wrong. You don't have the authority to do it, but if you have the authority by God,
00:38:29
Speaker
then it's okay. So that's where I think religion comes in saying that like you have the authority as like the ah the king of England or whatever to like execute these people. So vertical morality believes that like authority can be given to murder.
00:38:48
Speaker
Horizontal morality believes that murder is wrong because it causes harm. Um, and so, uh, you, you don't believe that murder is okay, no matter like and where position in society you are. Right.
00:39:04
Speaker
Um, and I don't know, I just, I just think that, I think this might be leading into your next question, Karen, of like, you know, like the innate goodness of like people, um and like the moral compass of like, of humans, like,
00:39:22
Speaker
For me, in this current climate that we're in I'm really realizing that like some people who think, Like, let's go with Steph's um example of her, Karen. Like, some people truly, really believe that, you know, what they're experiencing in life right now, their reality is um not causing harm to other people.
00:39:51
Speaker
Or that they have the authority to say that, like, they, like, can... I don't know that they can be like this, um this unkind to to others, you know? And it's, it's really and interesting experiment that we're in right now about like the moral code of our society.
00:40:16
Speaker
Yeah. Cause like while I would would have loved for Facebook to come back and say, yeah, it's been removed. You know, i think that, whoever reviews it has to acknowledge that there are a lot of people who truly believe that the the the person in the video was the one who was harmed and i'm saying the language around this video and whether the fact that that video has probably been doctored and you're creating propaganda is the harm yeah and but like
00:40:51
Speaker
who Facebook has no authority to decide who's right in that case. So all I can do is report that harm has been caused and they can say, yeah, they think that harm was caused in the video. So yeah on the other side, on the other side.
00:41:07
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I think um some of what you you two have been talking about, like bringing in the faith and the spirituality is really interesting to me because um I was not raised in a religious household. I did grow up going, um I would say – ah with with varying frequency going to a unitarian universalist church which our our specific church like we as children went to religious education on Sundays instead of like the main service and they taught us a lot about um the various religions of the world and what they believed so like I had a pretty solid
00:41:51
Speaker
ah You know, relatively solid foundation, but I wouldn't have considered myself religious. um And I remember at some point as a young, a very young adult, someone saying to me like,
00:42:03
Speaker
um If you don't have religion or any kind of religious foundation, how do you know the difference between right and wrong or good and bad? And I was like, um because I'm a human and I understand feelings. I don't I was like so appalled by the idea that like the the only thing keeping us from just all out murdering each other is religion. And therefore, like if you're an atheist, you're that equates to like the Christian version of the devil. Right.
00:42:32
Speaker
It's like those those things just don't, they don't jive for me. But so it it brings me to like this conversation um Bob and I were having with some friends last weekend. It was like the weirdest, like deepest conversation for like a 2 p.m. Saturday afternoon.
00:42:50
Speaker
And we were like, we were discussing like whether you thought a person was innately, like any person was in a innately good or not. um And it definitely coincides with this like concept of justice.
00:43:05
Speaker
i think I think I would have always said, and I'm still te like teetering on this, but I would have always said I thought people were innately good. And our conversation was quite interesting because it's like the course of human history would suggest maybe we're not.
Systemic Justice and Microaggressions
00:43:23
Speaker
And as you look into like justice – I can't help but think about the progress, like the progression over just a single lifetime, right? When you're a little kid, we all have had like toddlers.
00:43:35
Speaker
You see them sitting down and playing together. It's like one kid takes the other kid's toy and then the kid like smacks them to take their toy back. And like that is how they handle their shit. Yeah.
00:43:46
Speaker
So like that is naturally in there. Like that that's somehow innate. And then as you were talking about stuff in school, we teach like fairness and rules and right and wrong. And we learn about, yeah, our justice system, our legal system and like the hierarchy of deeds.
00:44:04
Speaker
And then we have this system that stops us from all just like taking vengeance on one another when we are wronged. So it then I'm like, well,
00:44:15
Speaker
is everything I've thought just wrong? Like, are we actually not innately good? Yes. yes yeah Oh my gosh. can't handle that.
00:44:27
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's even like the foundation of like faith or Christianity in particular is that we were born sinners. We were born not good.
00:44:38
Speaker
And through Jesus, ah we can be. Yes. yeah Everybody go to YouTube to watch that facial expression, please. It sounds like I'm mocking Christianity. I'm not. I'm just saying that's the foundation is that through.
00:44:55
Speaker
And that's the one that we know the most. That's the I know the most. So that's one of me. Yes. And yeah so and I think every religion has some sort of salvation or um connection to God, you know,
00:45:06
Speaker
and But like that was always the thing too is like we are separated from God and through, you know, your faith is how you get back because we are sinners.
00:45:18
Speaker
We are not born. yeah
00:45:22
Speaker
Can you repeat the question? Is it that we were? I'm wondering. Well, I think I'm wondering whether you guys think we are innate, like human beings are innately good not.
00:45:37
Speaker
How are you defining good? Yeah, that's that's the question. I think in this conversation, um it can be defined a lot of different ways. But in my in my mind, I think it's um being like being kind to one another, not causing harm to other people.
00:45:59
Speaker
But I'm curious what you think of when I ask that question.
00:46:07
Speaker
It's hard because so much of what moves me, i mean, i a lot of my career is about social justice. And, um you know, so when I think about this, i all I can't help but think about it as a systemic,
00:46:26
Speaker
here you know, issue. And so I think... a lot of my unraveling has had to do with like unraveling the tentacles of white supremacy in my own personal experience.
00:46:43
Speaker
And what does that look like for me? And I think that correlates with the religion part because so much of religion, you're you're seeing this in in in Christianity, particularly right now of like the message has been lost. The words, the translations have been misconsumed, consumed, consumed.
00:47:03
Speaker
Construed, sorry. um And it's been done to get people more power because of like capitalism. And the patriarchy and white supremacy. Yeah, all of above. Yeah, and those are very big concepts. And maybe one day we'll really get into like, we'll address those concepts.
00:47:29
Speaker
And so it just feels like
00:47:33
Speaker
I have to do the work first, you know, to understand and define what those things are. I have to go seeking for when people say white supremacy or the patriarchy or capitalism, like I have to understand what those things like mean and how I'm a part of it and how I'm contributing to those things.
00:47:51
Speaker
um in order for me to really see the goodness in other people, right? Because are people um just kind of going along with what they've been told since they were you know little and they don't feel like they have choice to see otherwise?
00:48:11
Speaker
um And is my role and responsibility... to kind of like say like, here's some light over here where we can shine like some different perspective on this and and and just offer that. Like I can't go around, i guess the my answer is I can't go around and this is perfect because being a Karen is but like minding other people's business, right? So like I have to mind my own business. and By minding my own business, that is so much work.
00:48:45
Speaker
yeah That I don't have time to really even try to dissect if somebody else is doing the right or the wrong thing, you know? And if we're talking about right or wrong is whether or not you're causing someone harm and you are someone who is operating in some of these systems that do cause harm, but you don't know the...
00:49:14
Speaker
you're a direct beneficiary of those systems. Yeah. And so you're not really going to adjust, you know, you are a direct beneficiary of the patriarch. If you're a white male, you are a direct beneficiary of, you know what I mean?
00:49:30
Speaker
yeah, And because it's systemic and baked into the bread, like the the fabric is woven as the fabric of our country, um the things that you're doing that causes harm are justified.
00:49:49
Speaker
and Yeah. yeah awesome And so. yeah yeah Yeah, that might be my like aha this is that it's maybe not about defining what's right and wrong. It's maybe about defining what's causing harm.
00:50:04
Speaker
That's what would be my. you know, because I think so much of the conversation happening in our stratosphere right now is that like black people are starting to name like all the microaggressions. They're starting to name the things ah women, you know, we saw with the Me Too movement, we're starting to name the things that hurt us, made us feel uncomfortable, um took away our self-worth. Right. And as those things start to come to the surface.
00:50:33
Speaker
You can't help but unsee it when you're like faced with like the, the, the people telling you, no, this is, this caused me harm. And it led me to x y and Z place.
00:50:47
Speaker
and like that's the responsibility of like our society to like heal it, you know? um So yeah. It's interesting.
00:50:59
Speaker
As you're, as you're saying that it's like, what is the, what is the focal point of the discussion? Right. As opposed to like, is a human good or bad? It's about what,
00:51:12
Speaker
what um what is the cause of their actions? It's not like, did they choose to do something good or bad? It's it's how did the recipient of their actions feel?
00:51:27
Speaker
It makes me think of therapy. Like the first thing you cover in therapy, or at least in couples therapy, is like um your feelings are valid. It's not about, I didn't mean to make you feel bad. Well, great. yeah I'm not talking about you. Stop centering yourself.
00:51:44
Speaker
You actually made me feel bad. So it doesn't matter. Yeah, if you meant to or not. um Yeah, that's fascinating. That's just like a totally different angle to the problem. Like stop centering ourselves in it and start realizing.
00:52:00
Speaker
it goes back to like collectivism versus like individualism. Yeah. Sorry, ahead, Steph. No, I think that that speaks exactly to why it's hard to effect change because when you are naming things that cause harm,
00:52:17
Speaker
it causes oftentimes a defense reaction because that's not what I intended. And so, and, you know, like oftentimes, you know, if you're saying, Hey, there's a lot of historical and cultural and racial um implications in that phrase you just used or what you're saying or what you're doing, you're calling me a racist. Right.
00:52:46
Speaker
then And then the conversation. Maybe I am. but um It's like, I didn't call you a racist. I'm drawing attention to
00:52:55
Speaker
um language that can cause harm. and And so, and either you take that information and you think about it, reflect and make changes, or you can continue to perpetuate what I'm telling you is a harmful issue.
00:53:14
Speaker
a right Yeah. Yeah. I think this is like. you know, making me think about like another synonym to justice is like repair. Right. So when we were talking about like coming out of the prison system, there is no repair while you're in the prison system. I mean, they, they, they, there, there's some programs that come in to help, you know, rehabilitate.
00:53:40
Speaker
i use that loosely. Yeah. um It's, but like, we have something to be desired for sure. Yeah. But like, what is the, and I, and I thought about this too, like after the, ah or during the height of the election in September and October, when I was, took a step back and just was looking at my feed of like, you know, the tribalism, the ideologies, I was like, no matter who wins, we are going to need a leader who knows how to repair.
00:54:08
Speaker
And I think again, like
00:54:14
Speaker
the way that I'm surviving this climate right now is by doing that individually, you know, and like focusing on like what is within my sphere of influence that I can do so that I'm not, so then I'm not um becoming the thing that i quote unquote hate.
00:54:31
Speaker
And um so that my light can be attractive enough that people will want to like be drawn to follow. Right. It doesn't, I don't need to like,
00:54:43
Speaker
go out and like start pointing fingers and and blaming more. I just need to start doing and creating, you know, um and, and, and repairing, because there's so much that needs to be repaired. We are so divisive
Collective vs. Individual Justice: Repair and Restoration
00:54:58
Speaker
right now. And it's quite possibly because we all have very,
00:55:04
Speaker
different definitions of justice. that's interesting And perhaps none of them are quite correct. This kind of goes back to our conversation um with when I was talking about gentle parenting.
00:55:21
Speaker
Yes. Because I feel like that's kind of the aspects of gentle parenting that I like is the idea of like discipline versus punishment.
00:55:31
Speaker
Yeah. And so like, you know, the Destiny Ann, my girl. Destiny. Shout out. Shout out to She says discipline, the root word is to teach.
00:55:45
Speaker
And so when when behaviors are happening, are as a ah so then we're thinking about our justice system, it should be an opportunity for restoration and repair. But instead, our justice system reverts to punishment, which does not change anything.
00:56:00
Speaker
Right. And so so the goal with gender parenting is to teach our child how to behave a like receptive environment.
00:56:13
Speaker
If we go straight to punishment, it's just- They don't ever learn. Learn. Right, right. Yeah. And that's part of like, I'm sorry, I know we're getting on time and I think, Steph, you might talk about this um and next week, but that's part of restoration isn't, is, is addressing the elephant in the room. Like I spoke to my friend who's a principal about a situation that was happening in my daughter's classroom last year.
00:56:41
Speaker
And she told me like restorative justice is bringing the person, the student who, caused harm back into the circle with their classmates and having an open conversation of how did that make you guys feel or how did that make you feel when such and such threw a chair at the teacher you know whoa and yeah no but seriously these things are happening in like first second grade classrooms yeah and how did that make you feel
00:57:13
Speaker
and the students talk about it. and then then you go to the quote unquote perpetrator and you say, how did that make you feel hearing that your classmates felt this way, you know?
00:57:25
Speaker
And it's an open conversation because so much of like, I remember when I was in elementary school, like the adults tried to pretend that that didn't happen. right And I'm like, it happened.
00:57:36
Speaker
And so now we're all living in this like disillusioned. Yeah. And it's, I don't know if I'm safe or not. Right. And so I think so much of why this is uncomfortable is because we don't want to really address the, the like harm yeah and what happened. And, and that's the rest, that's the restoration is the conversation of this hurt me.
00:58:03
Speaker
And I want you to hear that it hurt me. And I want you to tell me how it feels to hear that you hurt me. And there's an exchange, you know, and there's an opportunity. It also makes me, it makes me think it's like that the generation, like our parents' generation um was very avoidant, right? Like it's the same idea is like, I don't see color. Like that's how I'm not racist. I don't see color. It's like, no, if you just, if you don't talk about it, it doesn't mean it's not there. um Anyways, I know we are coming up on time. I think that was like, uh,
00:58:40
Speaker
Just a conversation that means I have so much more to explore on this topic. and um And I love that. And hopefully we get to have more conversations. But for now, please, everybody, follow us on Instagram. Like and subscribe. All of those things. If you want to um see all of Steph's facial expressions, you can watch us on YouTube.
00:59:03
Speaker
And we were like, can we tell our Instagram? It was pointed out to me that we like, where, what is our Instagram? And they're like, what are you, what is her? So it's, you can call me Karen underscore pod.
00:59:14
Speaker
That sounds right. Yes. Please follow us. um And yeah, everywhere you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, et cetera, et cetera. Thank you for listening. And we will talk to you next week.
00:59:27
Speaker
Bye-bye, Karen.
00:59:44
Speaker
out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same