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The Rise of the Karen: Exploring Racial Dynamics and White Fragility (Part 2)
84 Plays7 months ago
Welcome to part 2 of the Rise of the Karen! Please come with curiosity and openness to hear perspectives that may be different from yours and we hope we will all learn a little something!
This week we are diving into some deeper questions, such as: What is a Karen? What does that name invoke for you? What is the history of white women’s impact on black bodies? We will discuss how the presence of black people feels threatening to white people and ask the questions: Where does this feeling come from? How do we break that habit?
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
Ted Talk: Baratunde Thurston on BBQ Becky
Beth Bourne Hawaii Hotel Tik Tok
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe where ever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
'Karen' in Pop Culture and Society
00:00:24
Steph
Last week, we discussed the rise of the Karen as a pop culture phenomenon and a standard label for anyone who takes issue with not getting her way. In addition to Karens, we discussed other societal labels and stereotypes that impact the way we view, perceive, and interact with one another.
Racial Implications of 'Karen' Stereotype
00:00:39
Steph
Today, we will will will dive more deeply into the racial implications that come with the name Karen, the threat a Karen could pose on black and brown lives with historical and what might cause the fear-driven reactions to black people in predominantly white spaces. Hello and welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast where we discuss current event and pop culture topics with the goal of finding common ground through shared experiences and balanced perspectives.
Hosts Introduction
00:01:06
Steph
I am Stephanie J and I am joined by my dear friends, Karen Horowitz and Manny Rosa.
00:01:13
Manni
Hello.
00:01:14
Steph
Hello.
Social Media and Content Sharing Issues
00:01:15
Steph
Before we get started with today's topic, let's check in with Manny and Karen to find out, who are you calling Karen?
00:01:23
Manni
Who are
00:01:23
Steph
Who you calling Karen?
00:01:28
Manni
you calling Karen? Um, I'll kick us off. Hi, everyone. I am so happy to be back on the pod.
00:01:34
karenstansfield
Whoo,
00:01:35
Manni
This week, I was scrolling through the tiki talk.
Incidents and Emotional Reactions
00:01:41
Manni
And I think this happened.
00:01:41
karenstansfield
hello.
00:01:43
karenstansfield
For a second, I was like, the what?
00:01:44
Steph
The what?
00:01:47
karenstansfield
The ticky-tock, of course, yes.
00:01:47
Manni
The tiki talk and which I'm so sad I can't send you guys videos anymore.
00:01:54
Steph
period of thinning.
00:01:55
Manni
But because there's been so many that I wanted to, especially this particular one. And I'm not sure if you have seen it, because I believe when I went back to look at it on the interwebs, it happened June 24th. But this woman back born is who I'm calling Cameron this week.
00:02:12
karenstansfield
Oh, you're calling out on blast.
00:02:17
Manni
Well, it was a whole thing. She is one of the presidents of the Moms of Liberty in the California chapter.
00:02:24
karenstansfield
Oh, hmm.
00:02:26
Steph
Mm.
00:02:26
Manni
And she was at a hotel in Hawaii, I guess the last week of June.
00:02:34
Manni
And while she was staying there, they were also filming for some drag queen episode. And so the drag queens were in the lobby resting between filming and Beth Bourne decided to come down and cause a ruckus because she did not like seeing the drag queens because she quote unquote, quote, paid $3,000 to stay at the hotel
00:03:10
Manni
Um, she is a quote unquote real woman. This is completely offensive to her. What about her son who might walk down at any moment and see these drag queens? Um, so.
00:03:24
Steph
Thank
00:03:26
Manni
it was the tiktok was a whole video of the exchange i believe this woman she works at uc davis in california and i believe she might have been asked to leave her position i'm not sure um i have to do a little bit more research on that but i can link everything into our podcast notes but
00:03:29
Steph
you.
00:03:47
Manni
I think just as we discussed on our last episode of like why do these people trigger me and what was like my visceral reaction while watching and I just had a couple of wonderings that I don't think I'll ever really get answers to like I think this will go deeper into when we talk on today's episode perhaps of like why do people
00:03:55
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:04:16
Manni
jump to the phone. Like, why did you have to record it? Your reaction to this is one. And then what about she was recording her, she was recording the drives and like her, like, just
00:04:25
Steph
So did she record her reaction?
00:04:29
Steph
Oh my gosh.
00:04:32
karenstansfield
Oh, this wasn't like an innocent bystander that was like, oh, I got to record this moment.
00:04:38
Manni
No, she pulled it out and was like, yeah, like I'm recording.
00:04:38
karenstansfield
This was her.
00:04:42
Manni
Like she was going to put it on. Like, look at this. Look how, look how wrong. Look how wrong this is. This is so offensive to me. And when you hear her, she's, she is truly. threatened by these people truly in her sense, in her reality, right?
00:04:54
Steph
Mmm.
00:04:58
karenstansfield
Yeah, her feelings are valid.
00:05:01
Manni
She has fear, like it's really coming from like her throat, like she's, and so it's that part
00:05:08
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:05:13
Manni
oh oh was like, wow. But the other layer of that is just thinking as I'm a mom who has three kids and we like to take vacation and she's talking about her kid. This is the entitlement for the Karens, right?
00:05:26
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:05:27
Manni
She's talking about what about my kid, right? And I'm sitting there thinking, well, what if I was somebody who was actually in the lobby with my three kids and my kids are witnessing you
00:05:34
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:05:39
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm.
00:05:39
Manni
totally verbally abusing these people.
00:05:41
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:05:42
Manni
Now I have to have a conversation with my kids about
00:05:45
Steph
Mm hmm.
Racial Dynamics and Personal Experiences
00:05:48
Manni
this behavior.
00:05:48
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:05:48
karenstansfield
Let's look at this ripple effect.
00:05:51
Manni
Yeah and so it's like I just that's um what's kind of disturbing to me of like the reaction versus the response I guess is what I think about when I call somebody or when I think of calling somebody a Karen. It's this like very big dramatic response that is overly emotional that has implications on other people because the emotions are so big.
00:06:23
Manni
The subject matter is not big. The subject matter is very small.
00:06:25
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:06:26
Manni
But the emotional reaction is so big. And it's like if it is for the children or if it is for the protection of other people, then how come you can't respond calmly?
00:06:39
Steph
Mm hmm
00:06:39
Manni
Because right now what you're presenting is actually making me feel psychologically safe. And if I feel this way, then my children are going to feel this way.
00:06:49
karenstansfield
Unsafe. Yeah.
00:06:55
Manni
So anyway, Beth Bourne, I don't know what's happened. I just, again, came across it. But that's my Karen for the week.
00:07:05
karenstansfield
For another day, it just makes me want to unpack that response more of like, why? Like, why? Why is that so threatening? You know, why was she genuinely afraid?
00:07:15
Manni
Yeah.
00:07:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:07:18
karenstansfield
I would just I would love to.
00:07:21
karenstansfield
Anyways, topic for another day.
00:07:21
Manni
I think she believes that there's, when I did a quick Google search, I think she believes that there are the presence of drag queens makes young men want to cut their penis off and become women.
00:07:33
Manni
And for some reason, that's a problem.
00:07:37
karenstansfield
No, are you, is that real?
00:07:38
Steph
Is this real?
00:07:39
Manni
So I think, yeah, that's what she kept saying in the video. And then when I Googled, that's what came up. And I think she has a whole platform on Moms of Liberty devoted to some, I'm using this term lightly, research that shows that some ah a cohort of young men went to this I want to say Kaiser or something. We're shown a video and now they want to be women. I don't know. I don't know where she's getting her facts.
00:08:06
Steph
Uh
00:08:08
Manni
But that's what she's, but that's what makes her really, that's the hill she's going to die on.
00:08:15
Steph
That makes me think of how people want to tell us teachers what we can, excuse me, and can't teach in the classroom because they fear we will indoctrinate. And then there's those memes that are like, friends, if we wanted to indoctrinate your children, we'd encourage deodorant.
00:08:31
karenstansfield
Yeah, I would love to see the study.
00:08:34
Steph
And doing their homework is really what I want to indoctrinate them to do.
00:08:36
Manni
Right them to write their name on the paper.
00:08:40
Steph
think
00:08:40
Manni
Yes.
00:08:41
karenstansfield
Please just follow the instructions. That would be a great start.
00:08:45
Manni
Right, right.
00:08:46
Steph
Thank
00:08:47
karenstansfield
All right. I will quickly share my story just to bring a little levity. So my Karen of the week. We were, it was a long weekend last weekend, and we were at a little hotel in Michigan, like on Lake Michigan with some friends.
00:09:04
Steph
you.
00:09:07
karenstansfield
And there was literally 10 adults and 10 children. It was a madhouse. And so we were walking distance to this little beach, which was a private beach for the neighborhood that we were staying in. And we walked down the one day and we were making you whole day of it. It was the morning. We had all of our things. Everyone was like strapped up with their tents and their chairs and whatever. We get down and we start setting up in this area. Somebody had set up this half moon of chairs, folding chairs.
00:09:35
Manni
Mm.
00:09:36
karenstansfield
Nobody was there, but they had set them up clearly trying to reserve that space. And it was it it just in a little bit of an awkward space because there's little creek that fed into the lake that the kids were having fun playing in that we couldn't set right next to. So then we sat on the opposite side of these chairs. We started setting up. We didn't move them. We didn't do anything. We were just next to those chairs. And then this guy at the house that was closest to where those chairs were calls over to us and he's like, admittedly he did say, I'm sorry to be that guy.
00:10:08
karenstansfield
But then he's like, this is a private beach and we have a big group coming here today. So can't set up here.
00:10:17
Manni
Mmm.
00:10:18
karenstansfield
And we're like, Okay, Karen. It was like, there was like, this whole beach, there's no people there in his seats.
00:10:25
Manni
Brian.
00:10:26
Steph
Uh-huh.
00:10:30
karenstansfield
He's one man on his deck doing a flippin' hit workout with, I was just so irritated. I'm like, we have 10 children, man. Like, I am holding on by a thread right now.
00:10:39
Manni
Yeah. Seriously.
00:10:42
Steph
Uh-huh.
00:10:43
karenstansfield
This is our spot. So anyways, we picked up and moved. It ended up being fine. We were there for like four hours or something like that and then trekked back with all the kiddos. When we were trekking back, just to be clear, there was only three people in his crew, in his large crew sitting at his, we could have been in and out and he would have never even noticed.
00:11:02
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:11:06
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:11:06
karenstansfield
I was so annoyed. So Chad, Brian, I don't know what they're called, but you know, that was my, that was my experience.
00:11:16
Manni
Oh, yes, exactly.
00:11:16
Steph
That's always the case.
00:11:19
karenstansfield
There we are.
00:11:19
Manni
Like, why don't we wait until like, like something actually really threatening happens and then we'll, we'll solve it.
00:11:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:11:29
Manni
But like.
00:11:29
karenstansfield
Or like, Hey guys, just, you know, we have a huge crew coming in a couple of hours.
00:11:32
Manni
Oh yeah. Right. Yeah.
00:11:35
karenstansfield
So if you're going to set up there, we're going to be in your way.
00:11:35
Steph
Mmhmm.
00:11:38
Steph
Mmhmm.
00:11:38
Manni
Yeah.
00:11:38
karenstansfield
But, and then we would have been like, we'll be out of here in a few hours because we have littles and everyone would have been happy.
00:11:41
Manni
Yeah.
00:11:42
Steph
Mmhmm.
00:11:43
Manni
Yeah. Or like, how long do you guys think that you're going to be hanging around for?
00:11:44
Steph
I'm gonna stay.
00:11:46
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:11:47
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:11:48
Steph
Mmhmm.
00:11:48
karenstansfield
Yeah, any other approach would have been lovely.
00:11:51
Manni
Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.
00:11:54
Steph
Well, I feel like that is perfect. I feel like it calls back to um something Manika said during our last episode, where if we were maybe posing something as a question, like a simple, how long are you going to be here?
00:12:08
Steph
And something else that was just said was, don't we wait until there is an actual threat?
00:12:13
Manni
Yeah.
00:12:13
Steph
And so I think that's the perfect um segue into our topic for today.
00:12:31
Steph
Okay, so what we're really going to do today is to dig a little bit deeper into the name Karen. You know, obviously there's a lot of funny thoughts when you hear the word Karen. And, you know, Karen's beach example is the perfect example of the the the casual use of the word Karen. However, um first want to just start out with how would two of you define Karen? What maybe would be a common, like maybe if we can come to like a consensus on what is a Karen to start?
Defining 'Karen' and Societal Impact
00:13:03
Steph
So, does anyone have like a definition of a Karen you might want to like operate with?
00:13:10
Steph
Maybe in another question we could also answer at the same time is, what thoughts come to mind when you hear the name Karen, or what feelings come up when you hear the name
00:13:12
Manni
Ooh.
00:13:21
Manni
Yeah, my dear friends on this podcast.
00:13:31
Manni
I think, think, ah oh, go ahead.
00:13:31
Steph
yeah.
00:13:31
karenstansfield
me,
00:13:34
karenstansfield
I was going to say, yeah, as the namesake, I was going to say, like entitlement.
00:13:35
Manni
Wait, you want to go first, Karen? Okay.
00:13:37
Steph
for for Bobby.
00:13:46
karenstansfield
someone who feels entitled, uh, or in a position of power, whether deserved or otherwise, um, that like entitlement is the thing that like really stands out to me.
00:13:59
Steph
Love that.
00:14:00
karenstansfield
Uh, when I hear that name, that is my very brief, uh, definition, nanny.
00:14:07
Manni
I think of a care when I think of the word Karen, I think of somebody who cannot mind their own fucking business.
00:14:14
Steph
wo That part right there.
00:14:19
Manni
I'm thinking about the woman.
00:14:19
Steph
And we're done. Thank you for tuning in.
00:14:23
Steph
but
00:14:24
Manni
um um I'm thinking about the woman. I'm so happy that you guys were here for this. And I actually was not here for this actual like encounter. But I'm thinking about that woman on vacation in Mexico who came up to my husband and was like, why are you on your phone?
00:14:39
Steph
Oh, oh my God.
00:14:40
karenstansfield
I forgot about that.
00:14:41
Manni
Somebody who cannot mind their own business, right?
00:14:44
karenstansfield
By the way, she had the haircut.
00:14:46
Steph
She had the haircuts.
00:14:46
Manni
She did have the haircut.
00:14:48
karenstansfield
She was really owning it.
00:14:51
Steph
Oh my gosh.
00:14:51
Manni
Yeah.
00:14:53
Steph
Well, it's interesting because when, you know, I can't my own fucking business is like perfection is perfection.
00:14:58
Manni
Thank
00:15:00
Steph
And when I think about Karen, though, I also think about particularly white women who utilize their privilege and power to maybe jeopardize or attack Black people in
00:15:14
Manni
you.
00:15:22
Steph
um As a Black woman, when I hear the term Karen, my immediate thought, the first thing that comes to mind more recently is the woman, I don't know if you remember the story of um Amy Cooper. happened in 2020.
00:15:35
Manni
Central Park, Karen.
00:15:37
karenstansfield
Yeah, central park, Karen.
00:15:38
Steph
a central park Karen. And why she comes to mind is because when she made the phone call on the young, the man Christian Cooper, the exaggerated breaths, the call to the police to come and save her, she kind of explicitly said before she made the call, I'm going to call the police, kind of knowing full well what the consequence could be.
00:16:06
Manni
Hmm.
00:16:07
Steph
And and so when I hear it's interesting because Karen is a part of the name of our podcast and there's so many layers to the name Karen and I feel like it kind of speaks to the type of topics that I know that we're going to dig into over the course of our series. But particularly today, I think about the There was an article that I read written by Michael Harriet. It was posted in the Washington Post.
00:16:33
Manni
Love him.
00:16:35
karenstansfield
I know, I'm just going to chime in too.
00:16:35
Manni
Shout out to him.
00:16:36
Manni
If you ever watch or subscribe to our podcast, Michael Harriet, I will die.
00:16:41
Steph
Michael Harriet is King.
00:16:42
karenstansfield
Speaking it into existence, please don't kill my friend.
00:16:44
Manni
Yes.
00:16:44
Steph
Yes.
00:16:47
Steph
His, the title of the article, it was written back in 2020 when the event happened.
00:16:52
Steph
It really spoke to me. It says, Amy Cooper is the kind of white woman black families warn their children about. That's what comes to my mind when I hear the term caring, because I think about what Black families tend to have to do to prepare for such a situation. So before we even get into that, are we all on the same page when we say we are know what the talk is?
00:17:22
Manni
Yeah.
00:17:23
karenstansfield
I think we are, but I think it would be beneficial for the listener to hear a quick
00:17:24
Steph
Mm-hmm.
'The Talk' in Black Families
00:17:29
Manni
Yeah, what you mean by that because are we talking about the birds and the bees or are we talking
00:17:29
Steph
guess.
00:17:30
karenstansfield
intro.
00:17:33
karenstansfield
white people will probably think of it as the sex talk.
00:17:34
Manni
Right.
00:17:36
Steph
Oh, that talk.
00:17:37
Manni
Yeah, yeah.
00:17:39
karenstansfield
We don't have the talk.
00:17:41
Steph
The talk is a conversation that Black families tend to have to have with our children in preparation for the fact that our existence can be a threat to those in the white community and someone like and Amy Cooper could then fear you. And in a lot of cases, that could lead to police involvement, which could lead to, well, death. Michael Harriet said this really eloquently. I'm going to just quote him. He said, all of these lessons are centered on how to make white people feel comfortable, why their existence often makes white people feel uncomfortable, and why they must learn these lessons or die.
00:18:28
Steph
And so with that, you know, I have the question of like, you know, what is the threat, you know, that Amy Cooper, and I think a permit Patty and barbecue Becky, who picks up the phone, like Monica references, because of what, you know, like, what are we what is the threat that is faced because I know the threat of the call made, you know.
00:18:56
Manni
Yeah, I want to pause for just one second and add that the talk isn't just about how Blacks have to position themselves in white spaces. It's also how we are to respond when those cops arrive on the scene.
00:19:10
karenstansfield
Mm
00:19:13
Manni
That's also an extension of the conversation is to be submissive. And that's like when we talk about privilege, you know, I've had several friends since the Black Lives Matter movement was popularized after George Floyd come up to me and talk to me about experiences that they had and encounters with the police and how they talked to the police in those moments and how it was just such a
00:19:34
Steph
Oh, yes.
00:19:38
karenstansfield
hmm
00:19:44
Manni
They in the moment didn't think about it, right? They're operating off of emotion. They didn't realize that that was actually a privilege that they got to respond to cops in that way where in our situation as Black Americans, there's a certain way that we have to
00:19:53
karenstansfield
Mm
00:20:03
Manni
that we've been taught from our parents because of generational trauma to respond to law enforcement because of the history of submission and black Americans in society.
00:20:18
karenstansfield
-hmm
00:20:19
Steph
Yeah, I can't
00:20:19
karenstansfield
I mean, I think of a few interactions I've had with the police. I should probably say this to confessionals, but like specifically one time I got pulled over doing, sorry, mom and dad, like 95 in a 60 mile an hour zone or something just obnoxious.
00:20:27
Steph
Yeah.
00:20:43
karenstansfield
And I was like 16 or probably 16. pulled me over and like came to the window and my wallet was in the back seat and he asked,
00:20:56
Manni
Steph's reaction already is.
00:20:58
karenstansfield
Yeah, he asked for my ID or whatever. And so I ripped off my seat belt, dove half of my body into the back seat, grabbed my purse, grabbed my wallet, pulled it out.
00:21:04
Steph
Thank
00:21:09
karenstansfield
And at no moment in that did he have his gun or his hand on his gun or yell at me or anything to behave differently or whatever.
00:21:20
karenstansfield
It was just dumb little 16-year-old girl who was clearly grabbing her wallet because that's what most people would be doing in that scenario regardless of the color of their skin but like the thought literally never occurred to me that I was in any danger whatsoever never occurred to me and now as an adult I'm understanding like
00:21:28
Steph
you.
00:21:34
Steph
Oh.
00:21:40
Steph
Oh.
00:21:42
Manni
Yeah.
00:21:45
karenstansfield
that many other people have different experiences or approaches to that situation.
00:21:50
Manni
Or even just fear, in that moment.
00:21:50
karenstansfield
Like I didn't even tell him what I was doing. I didn't even say like, my wallet's in the back. I have to grab it. I'm like, okay. It's just, yeah, no fear whatsoever.
00:21:59
Manni
Yeah.
00:22:00
karenstansfield
I was never taught to be afraid in any way, shape or form of the police, but not even a little.
00:22:06
Manni
Yeah, and I think that's like and I think that's like the the point that the talk when I think Steph correct me if I'm if I'm wrong here, but like the point that we even have to have with the talk.
Historical Context of Racism
00:22:17
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:22:18
Manni
right, whether to the perceived white person or not, there is threat for us because of the generational and the historical context of it. And I remember in last episode when we were talking about, or was it when I was talking, no, here when I was talking about Beth Borne of like, but what is the actual threat?
00:22:38
Steph
Mm
00:22:39
Manni
Like, I would be able to empathize with people if I knew like, is there a history of this occurring
00:22:42
Steph
hmm. Mm hmm.
00:22:47
Manni
community and your heritage. Is there a history of this where people have been lynched, where genocide has occurred? I just have a hard time empathizing because the threat feels like it is a a little bit more of like something that you're like trying to make a thing as opposed to the actual reality and lived experience of people in my community and my ancestors and that and so so like maybe
00:23:12
Steph
Mm.
00:23:18
Manni
maybe, maybe, maybe giving the benefit of the down in my community, right? In my white affluent community where I'm a member, maybe that doesn't exist, but the fear does exist. And I have had that talk because the fear was given to my family, which was given to my mom, which was given to her by her mom, which was given to her by her mom, which was given to her by her mom, which was given to her by her mom because of actual events.
00:23:30
karenstansfield
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:23:44
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:23:47
Manni
hatred, you know?
00:23:51
Steph
Yeah, speaking of article that I'm referencing, Michael Harriet kind of chronicles a few of many events, but particularly the one that comes to my mind would be Emmett Till, 14 year old in 1955, when a white woman
00:24:06
karenstansfield
Hmm.
00:24:13
Steph
claimed that he whistled at her and he was lynched, which was one of the major catalysts of the civil rights movement. The Tulsa 1921 massacre was at the root of that was a white woman claiming that she was raped. Scottsboro Boys, I mean, the list goes on and on and these are for um years and years. you know, early 19th century and even earlier. And so, you know, to Mika's point, these directions that we have to pass on to our children to stay safe really are rooted in historical context where, to Manny's point again, where, what is at the root of the fear of us or of the Black community? And
00:25:05
Steph
And I think about, wish I had like some primary sources, because I remember in one of my African American study classes, they shared articles that in the like 1920s, it was post, I mean, it's a patient proclamation, obviously, but you maybe during reconstruction early Jim Crow and articles that claim, you know, black men are rapacious and dangerous. And, you know, the creation of the slave patrol, like I'm thinking of the documentary 13th and how it explains even how the police force came to be is just to protect the white community from black people.
00:25:29
karenstansfield
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:25:47
Steph
And that fear has been passed down, too.
00:25:49
Manni
Yeah Yeah, and not even by oh, sorry finish
00:25:51
Steph
You know, so no, that no, go ahead.
00:25:57
Manni
I was going to say I'm reading a book, um The Warmth of Other Suns. This is my summer read. It's like a 500-page book.
00:26:02
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:26:03
Manni
So it's going to take me a while to get through.
00:26:06
karenstansfield
I'm literally reading that.
00:26:06
Manni
I'm halfway through. Oh, you are? OK.
00:26:08
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:26:09
Manni
Yes. Oh my gosh, it's so detailed. But Steph, as you're talking about this and when we're talking about the threat, like the threat for why these codes and these laws were Created was because um, they didn't want black people to vote Because they didn't want black people to make more money in wages, right?
00:26:27
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:26:32
Manni
So it's not we're not talking about anything any violent criminal behavior we're talking about policing every aspect of a black person's life and so when we're talking about You know unbuckling your seatbelt to go into the back of the
00:26:37
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:26:48
Manni
car to grab your wallet, like it's policing every aspect of our lives, right? To make us compliant, to make us submissive.
00:26:53
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:26:55
Manni
And so that's where like the sadness comes from, I think. And where like the fear and the rage, like all of it is because it wasn't
00:26:59
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:27:04
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:27:06
Manni
because of anything violent and even if it was that doesn't make it correct but it's because of the you know the passing of the emancipation proclamation giving black people these freedoms and white southerners trying to um recorrect that at every opportunity so that black people could be second-class citizens or go back into enslavement you know and so um
00:27:32
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:27:33
Manni
I think Karen said the word on our last episode of like consciousness. It's just, you know, these things are just ways that we're asking people to like build this into your consciousness as opposed to like being like, well, that was so long ago.
00:27:43
Steph
Mm
00:27:45
Manni
It's like, well, this still exists.
00:27:46
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:27:46
Steph
hmm.
00:27:47
Manni
Like this still exists. If if if we, my DNA and yes, all of our systems.
00:27:49
karenstansfield
It's like woven into all of our systems.
00:27:51
Steph
Mm
00:27:53
karenstansfield
And so if I could,
00:27:54
Steph
hmm.
00:27:56
Manni
Exactly.
00:27:59
karenstansfield
If I could, I think the natural tendency, I might be overstating, but a dominant tendency, particularly for white people when hearing these things and speaking as a white person is defensiveness of like, I'm not racist.
00:28:16
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:28:17
Manni
Mm
00:28:22
karenstansfield
I didn't do these things. You know, they were terrible things. They were done a long time ago. They're not here anymore.
00:28:26
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:28:27
karenstansfield
It's not my fault. because, yeah, maybe because there's guilt there or maybe because you have experienced hardships in your life too and you think like, you know, I've had my own hard times.
00:28:43
Manni
hmm.
00:28:45
karenstansfield
So why is it different or why is it less important or whatever? It's like defensive. It's just, it's a defensive response.
00:28:53
Manni
Yeah.
00:28:54
karenstansfield
And I guess I say that because I'm not, I'm not trying to dismiss other people's lived
Conversations About Race
00:29:02
karenstansfield
experiences, but I do think one of the things that can be divisive about this conversation is the feeling that it's like them and us.
00:29:03
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:29:14
karenstansfield
And the reality is these things existed, these things happened.
00:29:17
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:29:20
karenstansfield
And all of those systems that were put in place in fear of probably in fear of Black people getting their revenge because, frankly, we white people did terrible things and probably recognized that, and we're probably afraid.
00:29:32
Manni
No.
00:29:35
Steph
Uh
00:29:39
karenstansfield
In the South, white people were outnumbered, I think.
00:29:39
Steph
-huh.
00:29:43
karenstansfield
And so, you know, I think they all stemmed from real fear in that time.
00:29:46
Steph
Uh-huh.
00:29:49
karenstansfield
And I'm not, so I don't,
00:29:52
Steph
Uh-huh.
00:29:53
karenstansfield
I guess I'm not saying that white people today, you are at fault, but wait, I think if we just recognize that this is real, this is a real experience for other people.
00:30:00
Manni
No.
00:30:03
karenstansfield
I'm not blaming you individual for, for why we are where we are today, but I am asking you to hear about it and understand a different perspective and recognize the little things that we do day to day that either allow it to continue or
00:30:08
Steph
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
00:30:23
karenstansfield
you know, overlook other people's experiences like be open-minded and
Media Influence on Racial Perceptions
00:30:28
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:30:28
karenstansfield
hear more about this before letting your defenses come up and then not being able to see another person for who they are and for what they've been through.
00:30:38
karenstansfield
I don't know if that...
00:30:39
Manni
Yeah and I i think I think going back to like how does this thread into like the Karens and like the trigger that I have when I see a Karen again is that like I talked about the phone right of like why do you go to your phone and Steph you talked about Emmett Till and like that
00:30:45
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:30:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:30:57
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:00
Manni
picture that image and michael harriet talks about this in his um in his uh article it it's if you know anything about black history this is a very pivotal moment in the civil rights movement uh if you go visit the african-american history museum you'll see there's like a very very somber memorial for emma till it's in one of the most beautiful memorials that i have ever witnessed um
00:31:01
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:04
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:12
karenstansfield
Thank
00:31:13
Steph
Uh-huh. Oh.
00:31:17
karenstansfield
you.
00:31:19
Steph
Uh-huh.
00:31:24
Steph
Same.
00:31:26
Manni
But that moment was used to generate change for peace, harmony, integration, community, connectiveness.
00:31:34
Steph
Oh.
00:31:36
Manni
And it's almost being weaponized when we see people go to their phone, like the story that I shared in the beginning, to say, wait, look at me, look at me to Karen's point of like, I feel threatened, I feel threatened.
00:31:48
Manni
And it's like, it's using that to kind of like, try and make a stance against something to shift to change that upsets me a little bit because that moment of having your son's casket be open so that the public could see it, to experience that, to see the harm, the dehumanization of that body, that was so intentional and took so much courage
00:32:04
Steph
Mm
00:32:05
karenstansfield
Hmm. Hmm.
00:32:07
Steph
hmm. Well,
00:32:18
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:32:19
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:32:20
Manni
And now it's like people just kind of default to like, I'm just gonna go on the phone so I can be the one who shows you what justice is like.
00:32:21
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:32:27
Manni
And we'll put this on the internet and then people will decide and they'll cancel you and they'll hate you and you'll get fired from your job or whatnot. And it's like, we've totally missed the point of what media and images are supposed to invoke in us as humans.
00:32:40
Steph
Yeah.
00:32:43
Manni
And that's what's upsetting.
00:32:45
karenstansfield
This is why I think social media is the end of humanity because it is like everybody feels like they are an influencer or that they have some kind of a platform and like we are living on a planet with, I don't know, seven billion.
00:32:49
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:32:52
Manni
Hello.
00:33:03
Steph
Okay.
00:33:04
karenstansfield
I don't know what the number is anymore. People like we are one of seven billion. Like we're not all, sorry, but we're just, we're not all in in important on a grand scale, but we're all part of, you know, a community. We're all part of the human race to be so like ridiculously, what's the word? Doesn't matter. And so I just think like, I just think people have this false sense of like, I'm just, I'm going to get famous.
00:33:29
Steph
Mm
00:33:36
Steph
-hmm.
00:33:39
karenstansfield
And social media is going to give me that platform to do it.
00:33:41
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:33:42
karenstansfield
And it's like, gosh, just stop. Just stop.
00:33:44
Manni
Yeah.
00:33:45
Manni
Well, and like it's like false, Brene Brown, not Brene Brown, I think it was Esther Perel was a guest on the Brene Brown podcast and she coined it like artificial intimacy.
00:33:51
Steph
Mm.
00:33:56
Manni
AI is artificial intimacy.
00:33:57
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:33:58
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:33:59
Manni
And it goes back to our previous conversation of like, wouldn't it be just nice if you like put the phone down and just ask like what they were doing sitting in the lobby.
00:34:07
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:34:08
Manni
what they were filming, wouldn't you be able to get that connection that you're seeking, wouldn't you be able to get that understanding that you are searching for if you just kind of didn't default to trying to criminalize people, right?
00:34:08
karenstansfield
Mmhmm.
00:34:12
Steph
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:34:20
Steph
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00:34:24
Manni
And so I don't know. And I was also thinking about this, like, the time period. It was 2020 when Central Park Amy, right, came.
00:34:34
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:35
Manni
And we were all stuck in our homes, right?
00:34:36
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:37
Manni
So people were paying attention.
00:34:39
Manni
But I remember still reeling over Ahmaud Arbery.
00:34:42
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:44
Manni
Like, that took me back to, like, a time to kill, where, like, these people took justice into their own hands and, like,
00:34:44
Steph
Exactly.
00:34:47
Steph
Yes.
00:34:50
Steph
Yeah.
00:34:51
Manni
were like, yo, can't be amazing.
00:34:54
Steph
Oof. Oof.
00:34:55
Manni
Like, is that like frightened me even more because I was like, wow, they just really dragged this man's body through.
00:35:01
karenstansfield
Mm.
00:35:02
Manni
And like, because it wasn't a
00:35:03
karenstansfield
Mm.
00:35:05
Manni
We weren't trapped in home watching on our phones. It didn't fit the kind of publicity that Amy Cooper got when that is like, and this is a point of the connection to the warmth of other sons.
00:35:20
Manni
People were surprised because Central Park is supposed to be a progressive area with liberals.
00:35:22
karenstansfield
yeah. mm hmm.
00:35:27
Manni
you don't and like the warmth of other suns goes through how these this thought right is prevalent in every region right so it can look as subtle as calling the police or as violent as dragging somebody's body out of a house when they're just going for a run
00:35:38
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:35:39
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:35:39
Steph
Well, I remember when
00:35:45
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:35:46
Steph
Mm-hmm. Well, I remember when the Amy Cooper event happened and people were upset that it The reason it seemed that people were so upset with her because you know It was there was consensus black and white people agreed that she was out of line Because Christian Cooper was you know, Harvard studied he was a birdwatcher.
00:36:10
Steph
He had you know, and he had he was an acceptable
00:36:16
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:36:16
Steph
palatable black man, there was like that.
00:36:19
Steph
And oftentimes when black men are victims of a police shooting or like a George Zimmerman, Trayvon Martin kind of moment, there's this opportunity for the character of the victim to be
00:36:19
karenstansfield
Yes.
00:36:23
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:36:25
Manni
Oh,
00:36:34
Manni
right.
00:36:36
Steph
dragged and in this case he was, you know, kind of universally like he's a good guy.
00:36:36
Manni
Yes.
00:36:43
Manni
Yes. Yeah.
00:36:44
karenstansfield
palatable, like you said, palatable.
00:36:46
karenstansfield
I think that's a great, like, I remember with the George Floyd murder that people were like, well, he was using counterfeit money.
00:36:46
Steph
Palatable.
00:36:57
Manni
He did steal, yeah, the money, right?
00:37:00
karenstansfield
And I'm like, so he has to die?
00:37:02
Steph
So did die.
00:37:03
Manni
Oh, right.
00:37:04
karenstansfield
Like, I don't understand that statement.
00:37:09
Manni
Yeah,
00:37:09
karenstansfield
Like, we should, ah like,
00:37:12
Manni
yeah, yeah that like I know we have to wrap up and I'll just end on this point but that just one thing that like I just remember learning I want to say in college.
00:37:16
Steph
Yeah.
00:37:22
Steph
Oof.
00:37:24
Manni
was that there are actually four branches of government and the media is our fourth branch of government determining how we are voting and our influence for our politics.
00:37:30
karenstansfield
Mmm.
00:37:35
Manni
And so to Karen's point, just be mindful of how you consume your social media, how you consume your news, because it's a little bit more targeted that influence our decisions.
00:37:41
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:37:49
karenstansfield
Yeah. And it's hard to know even like what I was going to say, like, do your own research, but then like, where, what is the right source?
00:37:51
Steph
I am.
00:37:55
Manni
Yeah, how do you know what is responsible journalism?
00:37:55
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:37:58
Manni
Yeah, what is responsible journalism exactly?
00:37:58
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:38:00
Manni
Yeah, well that
00:38:01
karenstansfield
There's a whole separate podcast on this topic, man.
00:38:04
Steph
Oh, I like when you said fourth government is media, you just that's a topic we got for sure.
00:38:11
karenstansfield
Yeah.
00:38:11
Steph
I love it. We've got to add that to the list.
00:38:12
karenstansfield
We've got to add that one to the list.
00:38:16
Manni
went by fast, guys. and
00:38:17
Steph
That went fast.
00:38:20
Steph
Did anyone have a quick confessional before we wrap up for today?
00:38:27
karenstansfield
Um, I feel like I have a gajillion because, like, I've had moments in my life where I'm, you know, I'm reflecting on the ways that I've reacted to Black people in my, you know, space, whether that was in school, whether that was on the street, whether that was whatever.
00:38:50
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:38:50
karenstansfield
Um, and I, I mean, I, I guess, you know, my confessional is that I still have moments where I find my, my immediate reaction to a person in an unexpected surrounding. And I have to like check that and ask myself, you know, why, why am I having that thought or that concern or even just like that observation at all?
00:39:03
Steph
Hmm hmm.
00:39:13
karenstansfield
And this whole conversation was giving me moments of like realizing when I do that and I think the important thing there for me is just consciousness of it. I can't unlearn things I've learned for years and years of my life overnight, but I can be aware of them and make sure I'm asking myself and checking in with myself when, um, when some like, when a reaction or a judgment feels like unnecessary or brash.
00:39:44
karenstansfield
So anyways, that's just my reflection.
00:39:45
Manni
Mhm.
00:39:49
Steph
I love that. I feel like that's kind of speaks to our thoughts on labels and stereotypes and does Can we change? And the answer is yes, if we are conscious about it and if we are intentional. And so I love to hear. that it's like a continuous thought and process. And I think about myself too, with my professional being, I just am constantly seeking, making sure that, you know, people are comfortable with me and code switching and all that kind of thing.
00:40:21
karenstansfield
Hmm. Hmm.
00:40:24
Steph
And it's interesting, like, how we all maneuver the space.
Conclusion and Resources
00:40:34
Steph
Well, thank you for joining us.
00:40:35
karenstansfield
Mm hmm.
00:40:37
Manni
Okay, bye.
00:40:40
Steph
The article and a really great TED Talk is linked in our notes. And thank you for joining us, and we'll see you next time.
00:40:47
Manni
I'll see you noon. Noon.