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Do Dress Codes Serve a Purpose?
33 Plays1 month ago
Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen Podcast! In this episode, we explore the topic dress codes, the reasons behind them, and the hidden messages they send. Why do so many dress codes disproportionately affect female students and students of color? What role do they play in reinforcing outdated gender norms, racial bias, and victim-blaming culture?
We also discuss the connection between dress codes and shifting attitudes toward victim blaming in cases of assault, questioning whether these policies do more harm than good. As schools and students push for more inclusive and equitable dress policies, we ask: Is it time to rethink the way we regulate self-expression in education?
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-dress-code-debates-sexist-explained/2022/12
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
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Transcript
School Dress Codes: What's Banned?
00:00:24
Steph
Spaghetti strap tank tops, tube tops, halter tops, tops that bear your midriff, mini skirts, hats. All items of clothing we were not a allowed to wear to school due to the school dress code.
00:00:38
Steph
But interestingly, all our items of clothing I see daily in the hallways of the middle school where I teach. we are Teachers are not to address students wearing these types of clothing, even though several of them do in fact violate our school's dress code.
00:00:54
Steph
So, are dress code codes necessary? Why have we limited the amount of interactions we have with students about dress code? Do dress codes cause more harm than good? Or are we dropping the ball and keeping our students safe?
Podcast Merch and Sweepstakes
00:01:08
Steph
Welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen podcast.
00:01:23
Steph
Hello and welcome.
00:01:24
Manni
Hello.
00:01:26
Steph
Hello. okay
00:01:28
Manni
Notice anything, YouTube listeners?
00:01:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
YouTube watchers. and
00:01:34
Manni
Watcher one person.
00:01:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and
00:01:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hey, Brie.
00:01:39
Manni
Yeah.
00:01:40
Steph
but
00:01:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, she's going be so happy.
00:01:45
Steph
morning
00:01:45
Manni
Every episode, which I think you know what we should do.
00:01:47
Steph
no
00:01:49
Manni
For those of you guys who aren't listening, we're alluding to the fact that You Can Call Me Karen now has merch.
00:01:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hey.
00:01:56
Manni
And yay. And so what we should do, guys, is for listeners who like comment and subscribe, maybe we could like put their names in like a little hat or something and send them one of these hoodies.
00:02:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:02:16
Manni
right?
00:02:16
Steph
Good lord.
00:02:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Sweepstakes.
00:02:17
Manni
and Sweepsteaks!
00:02:19
Steph
it see
00:02:23
Manni
I love sweepstakes. I used to love the McDonald's sweepstakes monopoly.
00:02:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my god, Monopoly.
00:02:28
Manni
you remember that?
00:02:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Did you watch the documentary about it? It's freaking crazy.
00:02:31
Manni
Yes.
00:02:32
Steph
and
00:02:32
Manni
Freaking and insane.
00:02:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Anyways, Steph, I know this is your episode.
00:02:33
Manni
But yes, that's what we should. Yeah. Sorry, Steph, but we're taking over now.
00:02:38
Steph
good lord
00:02:38
Manni
We're the Karens. But um one of us should model the back. So so ah the front has like the three little ladies on it.
00:02:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:02:45
Manni
And then the back has, you can call me Karen.
00:02:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Let's see. Let's see. Can you see?
00:02:50
Steph
Yeah.
00:02:53
Manni
With the like little word bubble and shout out to ah Steve O who designed our hoodies for us.
00:02:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Whoop, whoop, whoop.
00:03:02
Manni
Maybe he should be the first one to get a free hoodie.
00:03:05
Steph
Maybe.
00:03:05
Manni
Nah, just kidding.
00:03:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Steve-o.
00:03:06
Steph
no
00:03:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, he really should. Yeah.
00:03:11
Manni
He really should. Yeah.
00:03:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
There's one coming in your way, Steve.
00:03:13
Steph
yeah
00:03:14
Manni
Yeah.
00:03:14
Steph
this
00:03:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Manny, get on that.
00:03:16
Manni
Yeah, I'll get on that. Okay, so that's what we should do. Go get in our comments at youcancallmekaren underscore pod. um Perhaps for our, ah for like our Karens and tell us your Karens.
00:03:29
Manni
And also, um maybe we'll start pulling names out of the hat for some free merch.
00:03:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:03:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Did you just become a marketing genius? Go you.
00:03:38
Steph
and
00:03:41
Manni
a little tingly inside with that compliment.
00:03:46
Manni
Okay.
00:03:47
Steph
Oh, the shoulders.
00:03:47
Manni
Sorry, Steph. Back to you.
00:03:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And now back to your regular
Dress Codes: Necessary or Harmful?
00:03:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
scheduled programming.
00:03:52
Steph
Well, I was only just going to say I'm joined by my fabulous, talented, marketing genius co-workers, co-workers, co-hosts.
00:04:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Obnoxious.
00:04:04
Manni
so
00:04:04
Steph
and We've got Manny.
00:04:05
Manni
I want to be your coworker.
00:04:06
Steph
I know. and would make life so much better.
00:04:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
If more people listen to this, we could be coworkers.
00:04:09
Steph
And... There's
00:04:12
Manni
you
00:04:14
Steph
that part.
00:04:15
Manni
Well, that's why we're doing the merch thing.
00:04:16
Steph
Um...
00:04:17
Manni
So then people can see ah the merch out on the street and be like, I want one of that.
00:04:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We're starting off strong today.
00:04:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:04:23
Manni
um want that joint, you know?
00:04:23
Steph
What?
00:04:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:04:26
Manni
So Steph, I have to admit that when you were doing your intro, for some reason, it reminded me of like the ludicrous song. Like, I want to get you in the backseat, windows up.
00:04:36
Steph
twins up
00:04:37
Manni
I don't know why.
00:04:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Spaghetti, strap, tank tops, tube tops, halter tops.
00:04:38
Manni
jesus so yeah yeah
00:04:46
Steph
Maybe you were picturing yourself in those little outfits bumping that song in high school.
00:04:50
Manni
oh Oh my God.
00:04:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, seriously.
00:04:53
Manni
Yes.
00:04:53
Steph
Yeah. Yeah.
00:04:55
Manni
That's probably it.
00:04:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Saying all the words. Oh, my gosh.
00:04:57
Manni
All of the words.
00:04:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So bad.
00:04:58
Manni
Yes. The sauna jacuzzi.
00:04:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah love it.
00:05:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
The midriff, the miniskirts. No, that didn't work. We'll keep working on it.
00:05:07
Manni
It was, yeah, at least we won't get fined for you doing that. We'll probably get fined. I was thinking this the other day too. i was like, I sing a lot.
Uncomfortable Medical Experiences
00:05:15
Manni
So good thing we aren't a well-established podcast because those would be some dings.
00:05:18
Steph
Yeah.
00:05:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, I'll need to look up what the rolls are. i think there's like a certain amount of seconds or something like that.
00:05:27
Manni
I've definitely exceeded those seconds.
00:05:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well, mm-hmm.
00:05:32
Steph
yeah
00:05:33
Manni
Okay, sorry. For real, Steph, you got the mic now.
00:05:36
Steph
Well, this week we will be discussing dress codes and the purpose of a dress code, whether they are necessary and what message dress codes actually send to students and maybe on a larger scale to society.
00:05:53
Steph
ah But before we dig into this topic, I gotta know, who you calling in Karen?
00:06:01
Manni
I got a note.
00:06:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:06:03
Manni
I want a noun.
00:06:03
Steph
I want to know who's that girl. madam oh
00:06:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah Oh, that's not the one.
00:06:08
Manni
Yeah. Now Steph's got the, what?
00:06:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Sorry. I said that's not the one I was thinking of.
00:06:13
Manni
What were you going to say?
00:06:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um But now I lost the tune.
00:06:18
Manni
I want to know if you got a mind that one.
00:06:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Anyways.
00:06:22
Steph
and want I want to know.
00:06:23
Manni
I don't know if we're doing any song justice right now.
00:06:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No.
00:06:23
Steph
we
00:06:25
Manni
Okay.
00:06:25
Steph
Yes, we are. We are beautiful singers.
00:06:28
Manni
We really are.
00:06:30
Steph
So who has a Karen story and queued up and ready to roll? Who would like to go first?
00:06:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, I can go. And i I have a story and I'm like really trying to make this a Karen.
00:06:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um,
00:06:46
Manni
Stop trying to make fetch a thing.
00:06:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
well, I, the feelings I felt after this event were like I was um assaulted by a Karen. So, um, This is for all my 40-year-old women out there.
00:07:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um i had a mammogram on Friday. And... um and i And I'm debating on who the Karen is in the story. But so i I don't know if you have had your annual mammogram yet, ladies. But um the first one that I had was last year.
00:07:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I remember feeling like I had been assaulted. Like the woman who did the actual um exam was lovely. I mean, she was like, she...
00:07:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
you know, was as gentle as you can be when you're squashing my boob in a sieve. Is that the right word? And, um, sieve.
00:07:49
Manni
Boob or did you mean titty?
00:07:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I don't have titties. Uh, um, and, and, and I still felt last year, I still felt like I had been assaulted. It was like horribly painful. i was like, I can't even explain it, but assault is the word that I would use.
00:08:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And then this year, obviously, I knew what I was going into. So I was like, it's fine. We'll just power through. It'll be over fast. It was over fast. um But this woman...
00:08:16
Manni
That's what she said.
00:08:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
This woman was like um speaking like a million miles a minute. She was like giving me all these instructions, eat like asking me all these questions beforehand. And I was like struggling to keep up. she And also she was like wearing a mask because, you know, it was in a ah like a hospital.
00:08:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And so i am I I've really focused on people's lips when they talk. And so I was having a hard time like keeping up. just because I couldn't see her mouth and also because she was talking a mile a minute.
00:08:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I don't do mammograms every day, lady, like you do.
00:08:53
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:08:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You know, like you need to chill out. I do this once a year and this is only the second time. So like, I'm going need you to slow down and like help me through this because I don't know what I'm doing. And then we get in the room and she's like, ah stand like this, stand like this, stand like this, shoving me all over the place and like squashing me and then she like runs around to just take the actual image and she's like, okay, don't breathe, don't breathe, don't breathe, don't breathe, don't breathe, don't breathe. And I'm like, oh my God.
00:08:54
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:08:54
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:09:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. And you don't even have a second to take a breath. So you're like panicking, waiting for her to say not to breathe and hoping you have a big enough breath. And then like all of a sudden I'm like mid breath and she's like telling me not to breathe. And so then I'm like, literally there was a moment where I was like, I am going, I'm going to pass out.
00:09:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like I, I felt really lightheaded. I was like gripping the machine to like make sure I didn't fall.
00:09:41
Manni
Yes,
Critique of Healthcare and Patriarchy
00:09:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I'm like, and I'm trying to like talk myself off of ah a full on panic attack. You know what I mean? I'm like, it's a, Just one more image. You got this, Karen. So finally, okay, finally it's over and I'm walking home.
00:09:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, I sent my sister some profanity to like get it off my chest. Uh, pun intended. And, um,
00:10:03
Manni
yes, yes.
00:10:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so I like i can't decide um if this woman is a Karen or if she's just doing her job.
00:10:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I know she's just doing her job, but like can you be a little kinder in this situation, please?
00:10:12
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:10:13
Manni
Hmm.
00:10:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But then i start thinking, this is where the patriarchy is coming in, I start thinking, like if men had to have testicular cancer screening the way that we have breast cancer screenings,
00:10:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a thousand gajillion percent chance that there would be a better way to screen for it if you had to get your balls squashed once a year. So I'm just saying maybe the patriarchy is the Karen here.
00:10:46
Manni
here
00:10:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Or maybe I'm just way out on a limb and I just had to complain about getting a mammogram because it's bullshit.
00:10:46
Manni
yeah
00:10:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I hate it. I hate it.
00:10:53
Manni
I hate it.
00:10:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So welcome, Manny.
00:10:54
Steph
Well,
00:10:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You got that to look forward to.
00:10:58
Manni
Yeah, I'm still in the thirty thirty s club for a couple more months here.
00:11:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, well.
00:11:03
Steph
a I was like, not for long, girl.
00:11:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Birthday present. Mm-hmm.
00:11:06
Steph
a B, i have I'm having my third mammogram in a couple weeks. And, you know, it's not pleasant.
00:11:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ugh.
00:11:14
Steph
And my first lady was really nice. But my second lady was very similar to you. Like, homegirl, like, you go back and you have this gown on and she walked up to me and just untied it.
00:11:27
Steph
Like...
00:11:30
Steph
Like, she wasn't even, like, you know, like, she was just like, need to get started.
00:11:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, why even bother with this thing, honestly? Okay.
00:11:35
Steph
so And I was like, oh, okay.
00:11:38
Manni
and
00:11:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We're doing this.
00:11:39
Steph
Well, here are my boobs.
00:11:41
Steph
It's nice to meet you. What's your name again? Like, you know.
00:11:45
Manni
Right.
00:11:46
Steph
And it's like, you know, there could be a little bit of care and time taken.
00:11:46
Manni
Right.
00:11:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh
00:11:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. They just don't. It's like they do it 20 times a day and they're so um numb to it.
00:11:51
Manni
Hmm.
00:11:56
Steph
Yes.
00:11:58
Steph
I got to get you done so I can get the next one done and the next one done.
00:12:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. And they forget that like we don't we don't do that every day. And this is it's painful, like very painful. I'm i'm so tired of women saying it's not like it hurts. i am bruised.
00:12:17
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:12:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So anyways, that's where we are.
00:12:18
Manni
Yeah. I think in the sense of like the patriarchy, um and but I think we have an something on our Google Doc to talk about like healthcare. But I think in the sense of like healthcare and the patriarchy, like, and like how ah going to visit a doctor has become so like sterile, like you don't have a relationship with your doctor.
00:12:37
Manni
Like, I think that's like, when you're talking about like, is this a product of the patriarchy, you know, and like how...
00:12:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:12:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That's capitalism, I think.
00:12:43
Manni
Yeah, and capitalism. and But how we've, I was going to say how we've demonized like doulas and like, not doulas aren't demonized, but like how we've demonized like holistic healthcare or like, you know, like the, the, the,
00:12:56
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:12:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:12:59
Manni
ancient
Cultural Sensitivity and Personal Boundaries
00:13:00
Manni
practices of like health care and like taking our time and like the the people in villages who were healers who very naturally knew how to like care for the body. And um I don't know if screening would be the word, but, um you know, we've, we've really walked away from that very like matriarchal feminine approach to medicine. And um I think that's,
00:13:25
Manni
so that that's what I kind of heard when you were we're talking of like, what's the real culprit here, you know?
00:13:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:30
Steph
Well, it's all about billable hours too. It's like the faster that this patient gets out, the sooner the next patient is in.
00:13:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:13:33
Manni
Right.
00:13:38
Steph
And so, you know, ah everyone's in a hurry to get you on so that you can get the funding.
00:13:42
Manni
who
00:13:45
Manni
Right, urgency.
00:13:46
Steph
Stop that dollar, yo.
00:13:48
Manni
Yeah, that's the capitalism in there.
00:13:52
Manni
frozen for a little bit and that you were frozen in a little, just for a little bit.
00:13:52
Steph
What? I was like...
00:13:56
Manni
And it was like that dollar, yo, that's the best.
00:13:57
Steph
but
00:14:01
Manni
It's a great face.
00:14:01
Steph
That's it.
00:14:04
Manni
Um, so my caring is, I frequent this, I don't want to say where just because it's in my community. Anyway, i freaking a place in my community. And um there's this man who, you know, whenever I enter into the facility, he always like makes a comment about my hairstyle.
00:14:25
Manni
And he's like, oh, like, oh, your hair is different today. are the Right. And so um the last time I saw him,
00:14:37
Manni
he was like, I have a question for you. And I was like, oh here we go. Let me guess. You want to know why my hair is different today, yeah right?
00:14:51
Manni
And lo and behold, that was his question. Like, why do you always have different hairstyles whatever? And um no, no, that's not what he said. That would have been okay. He said, um, he said, have you ever had the same hairstyle for longer than a week?
00:15:10
Manni
And I was like, I channeled my inner Selena.
00:15:16
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:15:16
Manni
And I said, out to last week, a bitty, bitty, boom, boom.
00:15:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Shout out to last week.
00:15:20
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:15:22
Manni
I said,
00:15:23
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:15:25
Manni
These are protective styles for my hair, depending on the weather. i My hair can't handle the harsh winter weather or my hair is very sensitive to the harsh winter weather.
00:15:36
Manni
So depending on if it's winter or summer, I braid my hair up in different styles to, you know, to protect my to protect my natural hair. Not that he was owed any of that.
00:15:47
Manni
um And of course, what he says is just, huh. and doesn't even follow up with any questions, right?
00:15:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:15:56
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:15:59
Manni
So I was like, yep, and that's why you didn't deserve any of that, you know?
00:16:03
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:16:03
Manni
Because you that wasn't a question of curiosity. That was you trying to feel like you knew something more about me. And, you know, i don't even know what that was, but it was fucking Chad behavior.
00:16:20
Manni
and um Yeah, don't go be, don't go, like, just shut the fuck up. I don't know. What are you guys' thoughts on that? what is your response to that?
00:16:30
Steph
So freaking annoying because don't ask me a question you don't want a freaking answer to.
00:16:38
Manni
o
00:16:38
Steph
Like, don't like if you were meant just making a point, then just say, Hey, I noticed that you every week have a different hairstyle. End of story. Cause you don't care why don't ask me why then?
00:16:47
Manni
Yep. Right.
00:16:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:16:50
Manni
Yes.
00:16:50
Steph
Like you were, you were trying to make an observation you were trying to be funny about it. And actually you can get the F out my face.
00:17:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So I'm really like debating this one because Manny, I'm glad that you said
00:17:01
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:17:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm glad that you educated him a little bit.
00:17:11
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:17:11
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:17:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, cause you didn't have to, you he he wasn't owed that in any way.
00:17:12
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:17:17
Manni
Yeah.
00:17:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Um, but I do, I do you think like in the context of the patriarchy, like I do think white men are used to being able to say, you know, what they want when they want and, um, not really have repercussions for it.
00:17:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so there's like a little bit of me that's like, um, Hopefully he at least walked away from that and reconsidered it later, even though he didn't have, he hasn't been taught the tools for how to accept that information as it's happening, you know?
00:17:51
Manni
Right.
00:17:52
Steph
yeah
00:17:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So they I think that was very kind of you to give him something more.
00:17:52
Manni
Yeah.
00:17:53
Steph
I think I was.
00:17:57
Manni
So what you're saying is I'm Selena.
00:18:00
Steph
You totally saluted that situation.
00:18:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
are! You Selen-ed
00:18:03
Steph
You definitely did.
00:18:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
youelinena to
00:18:05
Manni
No, i think you're i think you're right.
00:18:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:18:07
Manni
And this is funny that we're talking about this in the dress code episode because I did have this similar tangential experience with my students where ah um one of like me and my black students were like kiki-ing over hairstyles and another student who was ah of a different ethnicity asked us about like our hair.
00:18:10
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:28
Manni
And the black student was like, you can't just ask us about our hair. Like, don't be doing that.
00:18:33
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:33
Manni
And I was like, well, if he doesn't ask, he's never going to know not to ask or he's never going to know, you know, about us.
00:18:37
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:40
Manni
So in some sense, we do have to, you know, explain, explain feels like such the wrong word.
00:18:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Exactly.
00:18:42
Steph
Mm-hmm. and Because it feels like share, connect, I don't know.
00:18:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Educate. It's like, it's...
00:18:54
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:18:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I just think, yeah, like there's, I mean, there's, there's just pieces of other cultures that we're not innately informed about, or like, we're not going to know. And so we all have to help each other along, I think.
00:19:04
Steph
I have
00:19:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um
00:19:09
Manni
Yeah, but in some senses it's yes.
00:19:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You know, it's not your responsibility, but also like, I do understand why people who live in a more like insular environment just aren't exposed to other things and don't, just don't know, you know? And so, yeah, it's tricky.
00:19:26
Steph
And it's fair for him not to know, but it just doesn't seem that the question was genuine because there was no reaction like, oh, okay.
00:19:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's tricky.
00:19:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Of course.
00:19:32
Manni
Right.
00:19:36
Steph
Oh, that makes sense.
00:19:36
Manni
Exactly.
00:19:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:19:37
Steph
There was none of that. So truthfully, he just wanted to make an observation.
00:19:39
Manni
Right.
00:19:41
Steph
Like maybe it could have just been like, I like your hair today.
00:19:44
Manni
Right.
00:19:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Right, right.
00:19:45
Steph
You know, like you want to, you know, like why be intrusive? Because now you've taken time out of my day for me to tell you something that
00:19:50
Manni
Right.
00:19:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm feeling...
00:19:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:19:57
Steph
I, you know, it's like either mind your business or you don't care to hear.
00:19:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That you didn't even care to hear. Mm-hmm.
00:20:01
Manni
right right
00:20:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I do, I'm, for whatever reason today, glass half full.
00:20:04
Manni
right
00:20:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So, I'm hoping, i know, I'm just hoping that maybe...
00:20:09
Steph
a here Wow. Look at you.
00:20:15
Manni
Bring that same energy next week.
00:20:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That was a learning moment for him.
00:20:17
Steph
Yeah.
00:20:17
Manni
Just kidding.
00:20:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No.
00:20:19
Manni
Oh
00:20:19
Steph
Oh,
00:20:22
Steph
man.
00:20:23
Manni
my gosh.
00:20:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Spirituality in our future. course.
00:20:25
Manni
um Yeah, this is like such a, comp this is, um I think for Steph and I, when we talk about being ah a Black presence in a white space, you know, this is such a complicated conversation.
00:20:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:20:26
Steph
Well,
00:20:37
Manni
situation for us of like, I don't always want to have to represent. i don't always want to have to educate.
00:20:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
of course yeah
00:20:44
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:20:44
Manni
And um I don't always want to have to share. You know, i i don't fully trust sometimes what you will do with that information when I share.
00:20:48
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:20:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:20:53
Steph
Yes.
00:20:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You shouldn't.
00:20:55
Steph
Yes.
00:20:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:20:56
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:20:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I mean, you shouldn't
Socializing and Gender Norms
00:20:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
fully trust you. There's so many reasons why you shouldn't.
00:21:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:21:00
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:21:01
Manni
Yeah. And so it's really, it's complicated, you know, because I do understand the other side of it of like repairs we were talking about and growing and coming together as a collective and it's really hard.
00:21:04
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:21:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:21:08
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:21:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
hmm.
00:21:13
Manni
But then, that and then it's like, what, what, what would have been an appropriate response in that situation?
00:21:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:21:19
Manni
You know, especially given the setting, which I didn't explain on this um in this podcast because I want to keep private based off of um solution And we open that up our listeners in that situation because I very much...
00:21:31
Manni
you know what is like that's where what's the solution to that and you know maybe we open that up to our listeners of you know in that situation because i i very much historically have, you know, defaulted to, to your point, Karen, I have historically defaulted to fawning in like my childhood and in my adolescence. So like as a survival response, you have fight, flight, and freeze.
00:22:04
Manni
And then my mentor introduced to me fawning, which is like, oh, ha ha ha ha you're so silly, you know?
00:22:08
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:22:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, yeah.
00:22:10
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:22:11
Manni
And so like,
00:22:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That's what women are taught to for sure.
00:22:13
Manni
Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm happy that I didn't do that of like, oh my gosh, you're so silly. Like, you know, um, so that was like kind of growth for me, but like, what, I don't know.
00:22:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:22:24
Manni
I think I would love to hear from our listeners who want to get a free, uh, you can call me Karen sweatshirt.
00:22:29
Steph
ya
00:22:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And we're back.
00:22:34
Steph
yeah
00:22:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, so good.
00:22:38
Manni
Yeah.
00:22:39
Steph
Well, those are Cairns of the week.
00:22:39
Manni
Anyway.
00:22:54
Steph
All right, so
Dress Code Enforcement Changes
00:22:56
Steph
this topic came to be because a few years ago, my coworkers and I were noticing a shift in how students were dressing at school. And we were hearing through the grapevine that we weren't supposed to address dress code violations that related to like shorts and tank tops and midriffs.
00:23:13
Steph
Though there was never a meeting where our admin administration like sat us down and explained the rationale, but we knew that we would not be supported if we sent a student to the office with that kind of dress code violation.
00:23:29
Steph
um and so again, I'm talking about like bare shoulders, spaghetti straps, tube tops, um cropped tops so maybe the shirt is long sleeve but you can still see their belly um shorts man this was a few years ago the shorts were very very short like cheeks hanging off the bottom um mm-hmm
00:23:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh yeah. i i Is that fad gone?
00:23:54
Manni
No.
00:23:54
Steph
No, it's not. It's not.
00:23:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Okay.
00:23:56
Steph
This is just when this this topic kind of started to brew in my mind was I noticed this shift a few years ago.
00:23:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:24:04
Steph
And I know, though there was no meaning or direction that we were not to bring that to admin, that they would not address it with any sort of consequence.
00:24:15
Steph
um We would not be sending kids home or anything. And so... So first of all, truthfully, we also all felt like we didn't feel comfortable addressing it either.
00:24:29
Manni
Hmm.
00:24:29
Steph
So though there was no meeting to say you shouldn't address this, and we felt like, should we address it?
00:24:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:24:39
Steph
But it's kind of uncomfortable, but we don't really have support in this.
00:24:40
Manni
Hmm.
00:24:42
Steph
And so why aren't we comfortable saying young lady, maybe whatever, which is issue number one that I would like to get into today.
00:24:49
Manni
Hmm. Yes.
00:24:54
Manni
Hmm.
00:24:54
Steph
the other... and the other um Another um dress code issue that has been addressed that was actually addressed directly by admin was hats and hoodies.
00:25:06
Manni
Hmm.
00:25:10
Steph
So if I were to wear my, you can call me Karen hoodie,
00:25:10
Manni
Hmm.
00:25:14
Steph
to school and put my hood up over my head, we used to be able to tell, have to tell them, and put your hood down.
00:25:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:25:23
Steph
um If kids were wearing hats, we would say, take your hats off. And we had a meeting with admin. This was direct. Do not tell kids to take their hoods down. Do not tell kids to take their hats off.
00:25:36
Steph
um And the the reasoning there was to limit negative interactions with students in the hallways. Especially when the interactions with those students are not with teachers that they have, because those type of interactions could escalate easily.
00:25:48
Manni
Hmm.
00:25:51
Steph
Like if you don't know the student personally, but you're like, hey, take your hat off. You're just constantly being hounded, I guess. Yeah. Um, and this one actually has been ah noticeable positive change, you know, and honestly the kids look super cute in their hats, but like winter it's like fuzzy hats and whatever.
00:26:07
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:26:10
Steph
And we just don't address it anymore. And it it's, so it's standing up to me because when we were in school, we were not allowed to wear hats. We were not allowed to wear spaghetti straps.
00:26:18
Manni
Right.
00:26:20
Steph
We were not allowed to wear any of these things. Um, shorts needed to be mid length. And, um, Now we don't, and I feel like the interactions are less frequent, they're more positive and whatever. So I feel like that's fine.
00:26:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So, but wait, but your administration specifically told you do not tell students to take off their hats or their hoodies, but they did not specifically tell you to correct the
00:26:48
Steph
Correct.
00:26:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah stereotypically female clothing. Like, hmm.
00:27:01
Steph
That's correct. That's correct. Like we know that if we were to, I believe like it's just kind of trickled down. So I believe like maybe a teacher did address it, sent him to the office and the office says we're not doing anything about it.
00:27:17
Steph
So word spread that don't even bother talking to a young lady about shorts, tank tops, because they're not going to address it. So no one does.
00:27:30
Steph
And like literally all the bellies, the booty cheeks, it's all up and down the hallway and no one says anything. And, and I've been in the hallway with an admins there and they're not addressing it either.
00:27:44
Steph
And at first I think this topic came up for me because at first I'm like, should we be addressing this or why aren't we? And then I started to think more about it.
00:27:54
Steph
And I was kind of, this is kind of like my confessional early is I felt like kind of old, like old lady, like you need to cover your belly or why are you dressing like this?
00:28:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:28:03
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:28:04
Steph
And I was feeling kind of like, maybe we're not teaching them the quote unquote proper way to dress, but what is the proper way to dress? so And why, you,
00:28:17
Steph
if I don't feel like any less learning is happening here at school. And so if you're talking about the purpose of dress codes, then did it ever serve a purpose?
00:28:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:28:29
Steph
Like when we weren't allowed to do it, did it ever protect really anything?
00:28:36
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:28:36
Steph
um So um i did find... um an article that I'm going to reference quite a bit. Um,
Impact of Dress Codes on Girls
00:28:46
Steph
I want to start with, um, she defined dress codes. She said in her definition, most often though dress codes ban clothes that the district considers revealing, distracting, controversial, or pose a safety threat to students.
00:29:03
Steph
Um, this This article, by the way, is called School Dress Codes Explained. The author is Isha Pendekar, and I have linked it into our notes.
00:29:14
Steph
um Another thing that she points out is that a vast majority of dress codes, 90%, banned clothing associated with girls.
00:29:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Of course.
00:29:23
Steph
And this is a government accountability office report. um And then one more point I want to point out and then we'll get into our discussion is 59% of dress codes have rules about students' hairstyles that disproportionately impact Black students.
00:29:37
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:29:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:29:41
Steph
And so, um and by the way, these, like, this data comes from um the U.S. Department of Education, and this article was written in 2022, and now we all know that that might, this research might not continue.
00:30:00
Steph
um with the Department of Education being on the chubby block in this current administration.
00:30:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:30:07
Steph
um But anyway, i my i have a few discussion questions. I just wanted to bring those topics up, um kind of front load a little bit, and then we can kind of get into what I wanted to talk about. But my first question is just what are your memories of dress codes in school?
00:30:22
Steph
um And does it surprise you to know that I'm a teacher and I'm seeing a lot of the things we weren't allowed to be to wear being worn now?
00:30:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um I can get of started. My memories are pretty much what you described, Steph. I remember the hand, whatever, like the fingertip rule or whatever.
00:30:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's like if you were a girl and you put your hand, your arm down to your side, your skirt or dress or shorts needed to be at or below where your fingertips were, which I like always remember because my arms are really long.
00:30:45
Steph
No, no.
00:30:50
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So I'm like, I can't wear shorts, I guess.
00:31:02
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:31:02
Manni
Mm.
00:31:05
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And then, yeah, no spaghetti straps, no tube tops, your belly, ah your midriff could not be showing at all. um I don't remember any rules for boys on clothing.
00:31:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um except I guess theoretically they couldn't wear a – they had to wear a shirt.
00:31:30
Steph
Not.
00:31:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You know, like – but they don't – we don't bother writing that shit down.
00:31:31
Manni
i
00:31:31
Steph
Right.
00:31:34
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um Yeah, and no hats, no hats. The hoodie, though, don't know if we had that rolled yet when I was in school.
00:31:39
Manni
Yeah.
00:31:47
Manni
Yeah, I, um so I went to private school, so we had stricter dress codes.
00:31:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:31:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:31:52
Manni
ah
00:31:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I guess I didn't realize that you went to private school.
00:31:55
Manni
Yes, shout out to Our Lady of Good Counsel High School.
00:31:58
Steph
I was going to say Outlady of Good Counsel.
00:32:00
Manni
GCHS.
00:32:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:32:01
Steph
Hi, Cam.
00:32:05
Manni
Oh, that reminds me. We do have another avid listener. Her name is Kim Miller, and she's my best friend from high school, and she listens all the time and texts us on the side. So shout out to you, Kim. Get in those comments if you want a hoodie.
00:32:15
Steph
Hi, Cam.
00:32:18
Manni
Speaking of hoodies, we used to love when we had dress down days and Kim and I dressed as Dee and Cher. um for lot of our like dress down days, which was really fun.
00:32:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:32:27
Steph
i
00:32:30
Manni
And we used to, in like our senior year, we got privileges to like wear sweatshirts or like senior class sweatshirt, but it was a crew neck. So yeah we couldn't wear hoodies.
00:32:39
Steph
oh
00:32:40
Manni
We had to wear the crew neck shirt. Um, So I don't know why I said all that, but um yes, our, um our dress codes were different in the private school.
00:32:52
Manni
And I think that's why parents send their kiddos to private school because they want them to get used to um the discipline of coming to school and showing up ready
00:32:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:33:09
Manni
like to perform in a certain way with a certain like look, right? I think i think that's part of it. I really honestly do. I think like when you're like, what is the purpose of a dress code?
00:33:21
Manni
I understood it as we are trying to teach and guide students for how to show up as young professionals. Yeah. in the workforce. And so, um, you know, um, correcting their dress behavior is one of those ways that we teach them. Now, whether I agree with that or not, I just, I, I thought that was the purpose of a dress code. At least that's like the rationale for correcting behavior that, or correcting dress codes that I used to hear.
00:33:54
Manni
Um, and when I first started teaching that was it.
00:33:54
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:33:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think maybe that. Like maybe that's true in private school settings because like it is more professional dress. But like when I think of public school dress codes, I there like the alternative of what I could wear was not in any way professional. Like the expectation was not that I look professional.
00:34:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
professional or put together. The expectation was that I don't show off too much of my body that would be a distraction to my male student counterparts.
00:34:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:22
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:22
Manni
Right.
00:34:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like literally, i think that's, I mean, distraction, I heard you say stuff in the definition.
00:34:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And that's the way I always understood it was like, God forbid, a boy would be looking at my shoulder during math class and not be able to learn because my shoulder was exposed.
00:34:32
Steph
Yes.
00:34:39
Steph
Yes.
00:34:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And
00:34:43
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:34:44
Manni
Right. Yeah.
00:34:46
Steph
Yeah, um that actually kind of segues kind of right into my next question is just what are your thoughts on dress codes that address how females dress and what message does that send?
00:34:57
Steph
um Is it best to let it be? um You know, so I'm going to start with you and then I can kind of chime in with what I'm seeing.
00:35:06
Manni
It's so funny because male fashion is so stupid. Like there's, you know, like, what is it?
00:35:09
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:35:12
Manni
Don't wear gray sweatpants to school.
00:35:14
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:35:15
Manni
Be a distraction.
00:35:16
Steph
fifty
00:35:17
Manni
Like what? Yeah.
00:35:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But they would.
00:35:20
Manni
Wood. Wood.
00:35:21
Steph
the The article did bring up um wood. Is that what? Did I miss it?
00:35:30
Steph
but um and The article did bring up ah muscle teas might be mentioned for males.
00:35:39
Manni
oh
00:35:39
Steph
And it
00:35:40
Manni
Yeah, I really love when a guy wears a muscle tee.
00:35:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, it's so distracting.
00:35:43
Steph
And especially scrawny little students, like where are the muscles? and And sagging pants.
00:35:51
Manni
Oh, goodness.
00:35:53
Steph
But I feel like sagging pants actually really falls into the disproportionately shintly impacting black students oh anyway.
00:36:01
Manni
Yes.
00:36:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:36:02
Manni
Yep.
00:36:03
Steph
But that was, the article did mention like most of it was directed at females, but here are some of the things that would address males.
00:36:09
Manni
Yes.
00:36:13
Steph
um
00:36:13
Manni
Yeah. We were talking a little bit about this before the podcast started of like, so Steph, you teach at a middle school, right?
00:36:20
Steph
Yeah.
00:36:20
Manni
And so, um, you know, I, I started out my career teaching in a high school. Um, but I'm more in middle schools right now. And what I noticed the last time I was in a middle school on Wednesday is that the girls mature a lot quicker than the boys.
00:36:38
Steph
yeah
00:36:38
Manni
Like, these boys look like second graders compared to the girls.
00:36:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, yeah.
00:36:43
Manni
And so the dress code um and we what we were talking about is like,
00:36:43
Steph
Right.
00:36:49
Manni
policing like their bodies for doing something so natural and biological.
00:36:51
Steph
Yeah.
00:36:54
Steph
dry
00:36:54
Manni
And um like, I know for my daughter, like she does not look like a 13 year old girl.
00:37:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Right.
00:37:02
Steph
okay
00:37:02
Manni
And so we cannot shop. and And first of all, second, am I on point A, B, C, or D? I don't know.
00:37:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
My next point. My next point.
00:37:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:37:12
Manni
Where are we on this list?
00:37:14
Manni
But basically like, we like So they took away justice. They took away all these shopping um stores where they were like, like limited to, or wherever we used to shop, right?
00:37:26
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:37:27
Manni
They took away all these stores that were specific for the teenage girl. And now you either can shop at like these little teeny bopper stores, or you can shop where like your own life, where your parents get their outfits, right?
00:37:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:37:41
Manni
There's no store for kids. well 12, 11, 12, 13 year old girls. Um, that is like specifically something that would be directed at their style.
00:37:53
Manni
So like they want to feel like teenagers, they want to feel good in their body and they're growing up quicker physically than their male counterparts.
00:38:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Great.
00:38:06
Manni
And so like,
00:38:06
Steph
Yeah.
00:38:09
Manni
The dress code only makes that transition more awkward and uncomfortable, um
00:38:15
Steph
Yeah.
00:38:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
Evolution of Dress Codes and Professionalism
00:38:16
Manni
given that like this is something that they naturally go through.
00:38:19
Manni
Their hormones are like freaking I don't even know. And there's no place other for them to shop to get cute clothes. So like there's a lot that's not being considered here when you talk about at least dress codes for like middle school girls.
00:38:27
Steph
and
00:38:35
Steph
yeah
00:38:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. i I just feel like over the years, i my mindset on this has changed so much.
00:38:37
Steph
I, oh, go ahead, Carrie.
00:38:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like the patriarchy had me when I was young, right?
00:38:45
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:38:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And like. made me believe that it was my responsibility to protect my body. And the way to do that was to like cover it up so that I wouldn't attract the wrong type of behavior.
00:38:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it feels to me like that is the purpose of dress codes is to hold women responsible for their safety as opposed to holding men responsible for what they choose to do with their bodies that could harm anyone else.
00:39:00
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:39:00
Manni
to
00:39:06
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:39:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so i love to hear you say,
00:39:14
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:39:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
in schools that is no longer ah a topic of conversation for at least for the teachers to be policing.
00:39:25
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:39:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it does give me
00:39:26
Steph
and That's at my school. I don't know if, you know, mm-hmm.
00:39:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't know. i don't I don't have a child that's like of that age yet, so I can't really speak to what it's like around here.
00:39:37
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:39:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But it does make me hopeful, at least for this next generation, that maybe we will stop. ah Or we will start to change this like victim blaming and this need to hold women accountable for keeping their own bodies safe when it's not women that are the problem.
00:39:59
Steph
here But when I started preparing for this episode, the first thing I i searched was victim blaming. And there were a lot of um the almost every article that popped up was what were you wearing was the title of the article and discussing how oftentimes when, you know, a survivor of a assault is being
00:40:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:40:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:40:23
Steph
talking about what happened, the question asked of the victim is, what were you wearing?
00:40:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:40:30
Steph
And so that's part of why I, my, also my views have changed a lot on how female students and women in general are dressing.
00:40:42
Steph
um I think that my issue issue, my initial issue, like, so my confessional being, I was like, these ladies, these little ladies need to put this away you know, cover up.
00:40:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:40:53
Manni
definitely Great grandma impression. Mm-hmm.
00:40:56
Steph
Thank you.
00:40:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, that was a good one.
00:40:58
Steph
Thank you. um Because I feel like those rules um have permeated for me too.
00:41:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:41:06
Steph
Like, you know, it's like, you know, I get a maxi dress or something and I want to wear it to school and I'm thinking to myself,
00:41:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:41:12
Steph
is it two inches? If I put my two fingers, i like I still, those rules that we grew up with still, you know, ring true in my head.
00:41:16
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:41:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh man. Yeah.
00:41:24
Steph
I mean, I'm caring you as a business professional, if you had a meeting, like, would you wear a spaghetti strap tank top to, um, no.
00:41:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, no, I wouldn't.
00:41:33
Steph
And, and, and then, and then that's another conversation of, well, why is that considered less professional? Like why if it's 97 degrees outside and You know what I mean?
00:41:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Why can't I be comfortable?
00:41:44
Steph
Why can't she be comfortable? And so
00:41:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I mean, in that in that case, it kind of goes for men too because like the expectation for men is like long sleeve button down shirt, sometimes a jacket.
00:41:50
Manni
Yeah. That's what was going to say too.
00:41:52
Steph
Please. Right.
00:41:53
Manni
Yep.
00:41:53
Steph
Yeah.
00:41:53
Manni
Tie. Yeah.
00:41:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ties are definitely like kind of phased out at this point.
00:41:56
Manni
Yeah.
00:41:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's very rare that we're wearing ties in business anymore.
00:41:59
Manni
you
00:42:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But still, like that's not comfortable.
00:42:02
Manni
Oh, excuse me, Ms. Executive. um and um i not even anymore
00:42:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i just, it's just not as, even in like, yeah, even in
00:42:11
Manni
No, I hear you.
00:42:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I mean, most business settings.
00:42:12
Manni
I'm just saying like that's from a private school perspective, that was like one of the corrections of like you had to wear a tie, your hat tie had to be like a certain way to be like a young business professional.
00:42:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:42:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
The right way.
00:42:21
Manni
Yes, yes, yes.
00:42:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:42:23
Steph
This is giving
00:42:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, so that is changing a bit. But like, no, Steph, you triggered a thought there like, even in meetings or in the office now, if a woman is, you know, like comes into the room and she's wearing like sleeveless anything, spaghetti strapper, otherwise sleeveless, i my immediate thought is like, oh, that's a choice.
00:42:23
Manni
Um.
00:42:38
Steph
Sleeveless even.
00:42:43
Steph
Oh. Mm-hmm.
00:42:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You know, but I mean, what ah her shoulder is so offensive.
00:42:46
Manni
yeah
00:42:46
Steph
Yeah.
00:42:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like literally what is that?
00:42:50
Manni
me
00:42:52
Steph
I think that all the time.
00:42:52
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um And I do check myself now.
00:42:53
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, that's so unnecessary for my – but I've been trained to think that way.
00:42:55
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:42:58
Manni
one
00:43:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So it's like it takes a lot of work to undo that learning, you know?
00:43:05
Manni
I'm so conflicted by this point of view right now because I hear everything you were saying.
00:43:05
Steph
but oh
00:43:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:43:12
Manni
Part of me is like, though, i do have an appreciation for decorum, you know, like, I don't want somebody, like, for example, when you go to like a wedding or something, there's like dress codes, right?
00:43:20
Steph
Oh.
00:43:27
Manni
Like, I, there's certain situations and experiences where like, I don't want somebody coming in pajamas, right? You know what I mean? i don't I want somebody to look fresh and clean and like they have like taken care of themselves.
00:43:39
Steph
oh
00:43:42
Manni
like i And I realize that's bougie, snobby, whatever you want to call it. But I do have that not because I want to police their body, but because that certain gathering calls for mike not to be in your pajamas today.
00:43:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But why does, but ah sleeveless, yeah.
00:43:58
Steph
Heads up, they wear a lot of pajama pants and hoodies to school nowadays.
00:44:03
Manni
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.
00:44:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, which is literally what I'm wearing right now, by the way, but, um well, oh.
00:44:04
Manni
Yeah, I see that.
00:44:08
Steph
hoodies, and Crocs.
00:44:10
Manni
Yeah. Yeah. And Crocs or those Uggs slippers.
00:44:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But, But so we definitely did that when I was in high school.
00:44:16
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:44:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, yeah.
00:44:17
Steph
Yeah, I wore pajama pants when I was...
00:44:18
Manni
Yeah.
00:44:20
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:44:20
Manni
Yeah.
00:44:21
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:44:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And but also, like, I hear you. I hear you, Manny. I do want i do want to unpack that a little bit because I'm always debating this in my mind of like, um does that mean you can't do a good job at work if you're wearing different clothes?
00:44:36
Manni
No, but that's not what I said.
00:44:37
Steph
yeah.
00:44:38
Manni
That's not what I said.
00:44:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But no.
00:44:39
Manni
I didn't say about your performance. I said the certain gathering, the intention is to like, look, like, look a certain, like be in something kind of, zo right?
00:44:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, I know.
00:44:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But yeah, but like, I guess why is is where I'm going. Like, why why does it have to be that way?
00:44:52
Steph
yeah
00:44:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And ah my example was a like a tank top sleeveless. And so like, why is sleeveless mean that you didn't get up and get dressed and get yourself showered and put together?
00:45:00
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:45:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, I don't think that those things are necessarily correlated. You know what I mean?
00:45:11
Steph
and
00:45:12
Manni
Yes.
00:45:13
Steph
I hear what you're saying, Karen, because i think about that often.
00:45:19
Steph
um I think about that often because like, again, if I wear like a sleeveless dress, I usually put like a jean jacket over it to school.
00:45:26
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:45:26
Steph
And you guys, I just want to tell you that there's only two times a year when I'm not just wearing leggings and a hoodie ah to teach. um I also, I'm a very casual teacher, like kind of over the top, but I always feel a little bit of um anxiety when, I mean, I'm teaching, I'm standing in front of the these kids, I'm running around the room.
00:45:35
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:45:46
Steph
And if I want to take my jacket off because it's, hot and I'm hot from having an active job, I think twice about it. Like, is it appropriate that my shoulders are showing?
00:45:57
Steph
And am I any less effective um or as a professional if I take the jacket off and my shoulders are showing, you know?
00:46:05
Manni
Right.
00:46:05
Steph
And it's just like, um so I get kind of Karen's point of like, when you're talking about showing up for the occasion, I get that because there's you know professionalism, but then, you know, what the, I don't know,
00:46:15
Manni
Right.
00:46:20
Manni
Yeah, I'm not, I'm not saying, I'm not talking about like the, ah I was kind of breaking from like the professional piece for a second of like, there are, that's what makes this complicated is there are certain occasions that call for like us to dress up and to have a dress code, right?
00:46:28
Steph
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:46:41
Manni
so Professionalism aside, there are certain like, ah situations where you do want to expect people to show up a certain way.
00:46:52
Manni
now I think for teachers and educators right now, um like myself too, I'm a very casual dresser when I go in. I even started wearing jeans like this year.
00:47:04
Manni
Like I, when I go in and I teach, I'm like wearing jeans now because I move so much. I'm in sneakers and jeans because I move so much. I'm like, I'm like in close proximity with my students.
00:47:12
Steph
me
00:47:15
Manni
I'm up, I'm down, I'm good the do it right. I'm like an entertainer on stage and I want to feel like very comfortable.
00:47:21
Steph
and he
00:47:21
Manni
um And I think that come like remember when like it used to be like teachers can wear jeans on Friday kind of thing right like that has kind of like faded out where teachers are wearing jeans you know even in the university that I work with like I saw my department head wearing jeans on a Wednesday and I was like oh really homie it's like that okay wearing jeans then from now on you know like it just it's starting to fade like I feel like a little bit in our on our profession I'm just saying there are
00:47:28
Steph
Yeah. Yeah.
00:47:31
Steph
It has. Every day.
00:47:39
Steph
Oh yeah.
00:47:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:47:47
Steph
i mean
00:47:50
Manni
Like, I do appreciate when people dress up for certain occasions, maybe outside of their professional work or whatever. And like, when do you learn to like do that?
00:48:01
Manni
Right? Like when do you, who who teaches that? And how do we, how do we distinguish that or whatever? Like, you know, like if, I don't know, it's complicated.
00:48:09
Steph
Yeah,
00:48:10
Manni
It's very nuanced. It's very nuanced.
00:48:12
Steph
ah ah yeah go ahead, Karen.
00:48:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
it
00:48:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It is very complicated. And I do feel like, um, I don't know. I feel like I'm at, yeah you know, I think I've talked a lot about how I'm trying really hard at this stage in my life to, um, remove judgment and, and, and not worry about what ah other people are doing, just like worry about myself.
00:48:37
Steph
okay
00:48:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And so it does make me wonder like, uh, you know, why why do I care what somebody else is wearing if it makes them happy, if it's authentic to them?
00:48:48
Manni
Yeah.
00:48:48
Steph
here
00:48:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um we We have defined, you know, society and our culture have defined what is, quote, acceptable and unacceptable. And that's all just made up.
00:49:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's all just made up by somebody. So like, I'm trying to think,
00:49:02
Manni
yeah
00:49:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like what is a sound reason that I would expect someone to wear a certain thing in a certain place? And I can't really come up with one right now, except that, you know, some person at some point in time said this was what we accept.
00:49:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like you have to tie this like noose around your neck and we call it a tie and that is acceptable.
00:49:23
Steph
Come noon.
00:49:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's just like so... Yeah, i I'm just struggling at this moment to think of a good reason to force anyone to wear any certain thing. I prefer you to wear clothes and cover up your private parts, but...
00:49:37
Manni
I don't. You can come nude.
00:49:39
Steph
from new
00:49:41
Manni
Hedonism, bitches.
00:49:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah Okay. ah I'm going to do it and see how you feel about that. I wish I had the confidence to actually pull that off.
00:49:48
Manni
She's taking off her clothes. She's taking off the hoodie now.
00:49:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I don't, but...
00:49:54
Steph
So when I like my when i was posed like this part of the discussion that was, the question I was initially asking was like your thoughts and dress codes that address females particularly and what message does it send?
00:50:09
Steph
um At the end of the article, it talks about the US Department of Education, RIP, is in the process of developing some policies, or not for the homies,
00:50:18
Manni
Pour one out for my homies.
00:50:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh, it's so bad.
00:50:21
Steph
Um, and where they're, they're looking at finding ways to remove some of the gender and racial stereotypes from dress codes so that dress codes are not targeting anyone.
00:50:34
Steph
um It says, for example, by using words like provocative and revealing unfairly targets girls.
00:50:35
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:50:40
Steph
And so um those words alone are problematic. And so we would maybe change our language centered around that. um I, it caused me to look up my school's dress code, because again, we do not address this with the students at our school.
00:50:58
Steph
And it, and I found it interesting. One of the things it says is tops must have shoulder straps, right? but it doesn't say a certain width. When I was in school, it had to be two inches wide.
00:51:09
Manni
Hmm.
00:51:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
00:51:11
Steph
um And it says, wait, clothing must cover areas from one armpit across to the other armpit down to the thighs.
00:51:18
Manni
Hmm.
00:51:22
Steph
But it didn't say mid thighs. um Oh no, I think it does say, no, it says tops must be, as shorts and skirts must reach the mid length, mid thigh, it says it.
00:51:34
Steph
And again, like that's not how students are dressing and that's and we are not addressing it. But
Restorative Justice and School Absenteeism
00:51:42
Steph
at post all this like dress code stuff, my school was chosen to pilot a program called Restorative Justice, which I believe Manny mentioned briefly at the end of our last episode.
00:51:58
Steph
And the purpose of, ah we're in the early stages, so we're piloting it. We are not to um the phase that Manny mentioned, the restorative part where you circle up and address the elephant in the room and actually talk, but we're at the community building part, where the purpose is to create community. We have community circles, not restorative, restorative circles.
00:52:21
Steph
And we have discussion questions and like they start kind of benign. And then as the year progresses, the questions kind of get a little bit more, um, more in depth and you kind of create community.
00:52:33
Steph
And so the purpose is that when you, when a student violates some sort of norm and say they do end up being suspended, we have a community that we bring them back into and there is a reinstatement process.
00:52:48
Steph
So when they come back, you know, we do address the elephant in the room and we welcome them back into the community. um And so I'm finding that Now that we, prior to starting this program, we've already eliminated some of the negative interactions that the community building has gone really well because kids aren't being chased down the hallway to take their hats off.
00:53:11
Steph
And for, and kids aren't being like scolded on what they're wearing. We're not, that's not even part of what we're dealing with. The purpose of rejo restorative justice also is to reduce suspension because that does lead to expulsion, which leads to juvie, which leads to the prison pipeline. So that's why um we try to limit those,
00:53:35
Steph
call like occurrences. It doesn't mean you don't suspend, you know, kids throw on a chair, they're going to be suspended, but bringing them back and having a path for restoration and membership in your community is like the purpose. And so I'm finding that when I was initially taken aback by the fact that we don't address it, I'm feeling relief that it's not one of the things on our plates and that we can just kind of focus on getting to know the kids and create community. And so any thoughts on
00:54:09
Steph
on that.
00:54:10
Manni
Yeah, I think um this is making me think of a couple of things. One, when I was saying about like the definition of like for me and how it was presented of having dress codes for a professional, I think this opens up your school's approach, opens up the opportunity to have a conversation of, well, um somebody who works on cars,
00:54:33
Manni
doesn't need to wear a suit and tie. like Like their professional dress looks different than another person's professional dress.
00:54:36
Steph
Mm hmm.
00:54:40
Manni
so So targeting dress code for the reason of like your future profession now doesn't even make sense because everybody's going into different professions and different professions have different dress codes, right?
00:54:49
Steph
Right.
00:54:51
Manni
And
00:54:51
Steph
Yeah.
00:54:52
Manni
um and
00:54:52
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:54:53
Manni
ah Also, God, there was something else about the restoration and coming. Oh, um I think, you know, you had mentioned that like this is just at your school, but like this was when I was teaching in Virginia, this was a conversation that was starting to oh what ah unfold in Virginia schools. And this also is a conversation in New Jersey schools.
00:55:14
Manni
um But most of it is connected to absenteeism. And the fact that like we can't even get our kids to come to school.
00:55:18
Steph
Oh, period.
00:55:21
Manni
So who gives that a fuck what they look like, right? Like let's just get them here.
00:55:23
Steph
Yes.
00:55:25
Manni
So like if they are not emotionally available to learn, like something happened after COVID that we are like seriously in need of addressing.
00:55:29
Steph
Mm-hmm.
00:55:32
Manni
And if like our kids are not emotionally available to learn, or if they're not even physically here to learn, who gives a shit about a dress code? Like we have so much lost instructional time.
00:55:41
Steph
Ugh.
00:55:43
Manni
And so focusing on the relationship piece I love that your school is doing that because like, that's where we are post COVID that these kids need some trust in the institution again.
00:55:51
Steph
Yes.
00:55:55
Manni
And the dress code is like the least of our concerns.
00:55:58
Steph
Least of our words leasts of our concerns. Yes. The absenteeism, Manny, I'm so glad that you brought that up because good Lord, like kids miss so much school and it's just so hard to keep track of. And just, oh, I just love for them to be in the buildings.
00:56:16
Manni
Yeah.
00:56:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Is that, ah do you feel like noticeably more after COVID? Like they're missing?
00:56:22
Manni
Yes.
00:56:23
Steph
Yes.
00:56:23
Manni
Yes. There's numbers for that too, that have come out.
00:56:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And what is, do we know what the reason is for that?
00:56:25
Steph
Yes.
00:56:30
Steph
Do you think it's because there's comfort data?
00:56:30
Manni
There's, I don't think we have enough.
00:56:33
Steph
OK. Because I was like, do you think that there's comfort, like,
00:56:34
Manni
yeah but go ahead. but
00:56:38
Steph
Like, I feel like missing school in the past was a little bit more frowned upon, but because kids spent so much time at home and like parents work from home now and it's easier, especially if they're a little older, like, okay, you can stay home.
00:56:46
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:56:49
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:56:52
Steph
You sit downstairs. I'm going to still be up here at work. doesn't, it's not as cumbersome for kids to miss school um as it was.
00:56:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, interesting.
00:57:00
Manni
yeah yep
00:57:01
Steph
And then like the whole like mental health day, like, you know, even as adults, like I need a day and a kid saying, hey, I need a day.
00:57:05
Manni
ye yeah yeah
00:57:08
Steph
And who are you to say they don't need a day? and um And it just gets out of hand sometimes.
00:57:11
Manni
yeah
00:57:14
Steph
It's like. Mm
00:57:16
Manni
And I think um to to your point about like the schedule of like an adult, like, you know, our society is run on the school year. So like the only time that people can really quote unquote take a vacation is in the summer.
00:57:23
Steph
hmm. Mm
00:57:29
Manni
And people are starting now that the work schedule has become more remote, people are starting to take advantage of the fact that like, oh, wait, I have more um like days that I can be off of work that aren't just going to limit me to the summer.
00:57:30
Steph
hmm.
00:57:34
Steph
Oh
00:57:42
Manni
So families are taking I know at least for like our school system, like families are taking vacations, like extended vacations beyond like the week long spring breaks and like winter breaks that we have.
00:57:54
Steph
oh yeah.
00:57:56
Manni
um
00:57:56
Steph
Already?
00:57:57
Manni
So yeah, I think that that's a little bit of a part of it.
00:57:58
Steph
Yeah, I'm already getting recorded. Yeah, yeah. Well, know we kind that was kind of an aside with like attendance and stuff, but it it is relative in that dress code really has kind of slid down to the bottom of our priority list.
00:58:17
Steph
Um, but I feel like there's some benefit because, um again, we are shifting focus and responsibility off of like our female students on how you dress to dictate how you, um, should be treated.
00:58:17
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:58:33
Steph
Um, And I feel like that conversation can now be had. And like, I feel like, I think our female students are equipped to head into the world being like, I can dress however and still be a productive student, still be a productive learner, still contribute to my community and still be respected by the my teachers, by my peers.
00:58:57
Steph
And so I think that there's some good stuff like coming from that.
00:59:02
Manni
Yeah.
00:59:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I love that. Gives me hope.
00:59:06
Manni
I have a couple of confessionals.
00:59:08
Steph
Yes, let's roll.
00:59:09
Manni
Um, so I think it's interesting that we're talking about the shift of priority and like how that aligns with like our last week's episode of like the shift of like the hierarchy of sins, you know, like, like how we used to put so much emphasis on like certain criminal, we used to criminalize certain behavior. I'm thinking about like legalization of marijuana, right? And how like that has now, now we have like vape shops, you know, right?
00:59:36
Manni
Um, and like, you know, same with like the dress codes of like how we used to criminalize dress codes. And now that's shifting because we have a different focus, you know?
00:59:44
Steph
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:59:44
Manni
Um, so that, uh, like just unlocked for me. And then also, um, you had mentioned something about, you know, like, um, ah disproportionately affecting black students and criminalizing black students. And we talked about like the body and how like girls, you know, and start to develop more and ah to ah a lot of black students are the same.
01:00:07
Manni
um
Dress Codes and Cultural Identity
01:00:07
Manni
But I also was thinking about how we started this conversation with like the hair. ah my Karen of the hair and how there's now, it hasn't been passed for maybe some states have passed the Crown Act, where the laws that are have dress codes that, you know, those videos are so painful to watch the people cutting the dreadlocks off of, like black students head, like, just such a and violation of culture and identity and, you
01:00:12
Steph
and
01:00:19
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:00:27
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:00:30
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:00:35
Manni
just ah completely heartbreaking. But um I remember when I was first ah learning about like dress codes and like the the ah inequity of ah of a dress code and the hair stuff and how someone was saying that like for a black girls, it takes sometimes like eight, nine hours to get your hair braided
01:00:58
Steph
Exactly.
01:00:58
Manni
And so they will sometimes come to school with half of their hair braided a scarf on top of their head because their hair hasn't been fully like installed.
01:01:03
Steph
Die. ah
01:01:11
Manni
And so some of the like ah discipline issues that would occur between them and a white staff member was because black girls would be like, no, I'm not taking my scarf off. Like I would rather f freaking
01:01:21
Steph
exactly
01:01:22
Manni
die, then take my scarf off right now.
01:01:23
Steph
die
01:01:25
Manni
You're not going to get me to take my scarf off. And then white ah staff members in a position of like power would get into a power struggle with these black girls.
01:01:28
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:01:32
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:01:35
Manni
And um then you would see more suspensions and expulsions because black girls are like, oh, no, like, hell nah.
01:01:35
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:01:39
Steph
Yep.
01:01:42
Manni
Like I came to school.
01:01:42
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:01:43
Manni
Okay. That was enough.
01:01:44
Steph
Yeah, I mean.
01:01:44
Manni
Like I came to school, my her half but braided. um You should be happy about that.
01:01:47
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:01:49
Manni
Right.
01:01:50
Steph
This goes for do rags to like, because I remember not long after I started at the school I teach at, they were like, he needs to take that off.
01:01:50
Manni
And so-
01:01:53
Manni
Mm-hmm.
01:02:00
Steph
and i'm like, you're not gonna tell him to take that off because there's no need to take it off. It's fine.
01:02:04
Manni
Right.
01:02:04
Steph
Like, so leave it alone.
01:02:05
Manni
Yep.
01:02:07
Manni
Right.
01:02:08
Steph
And I think that also contributes to why we don't address hats, hoods, because we don't address do-rags either.
01:02:12
Manni
Yeah.
01:02:14
Steph
We don't address scarves and obviously for religious persons purpose, um hair head coverings in general. So um I just feel like we are taking some good stuff off our plate and allowing um self-identity and yeah, I'm sorry, i didn't mean to hijack what you were saying, but like, I just felt really passionate about that curiosity.
01:02:20
Manni
Right.
01:02:28
Manni
yeah yeah
01:02:31
Manni
Yeah, yeah. But it goes back to what we were saying about culture.
01:02:32
Steph
Yeah.
01:02:34
Manni
Now in those community moment, in those moments of like the community building that your school is doing for professional development, you get to have those conversations of like, when we don't do this, we get to allow for like the students to really embrace their culture and be like in their full identity.
01:02:48
Manni
And when they're able to like sit in the comfort of like their self-worth, then they're going to want to learn, you know, but if they're sitting in insecurity and self-consciousness and
01:02:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I love that. love that
01:02:59
Manni
They're not going to be paying attention to your fucking algebra equation. Sorry, Steph.
01:03:04
Steph
Yeah, true. It's facts.
01:03:08
Manni
Yeah, that's my confession.
01:03:09
Steph
Karen, do you have any confessionals?
01:03:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um I mean, i think I shared them along the way. i really appreciate, I guess maybe my confessional is like, I love hearing this dialogue that the two of you were just having. And I think it's so important for me and for our white listeners to understand just the nuances of like, what it's like to be black in in this society um and what it's like to have to like,
01:03:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
think about all of these, um I guess, like just, you know, all of these challenges of being a black person in this society. Like you were telling that story of like a black girl having only half of her hair braided, you know, and like wearing this scarf.
01:03:50
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:03:56
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:03:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's just like, these are not things that white people understand. And I think it's super helpful for us to like, just say them out loud and help my peers learn what What are the differences?
01:04:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's okay that there's differences, but being able to understand it and have empathy so that we treat each other with more kindness, I think, is how we break down some of these barriers.
01:04:21
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So I just really appreciate that honesty and transparency.
01:04:22
Manni
yeah
01:04:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think that's so helpful.
01:04:28
Manni
Yeah, and to add to that, that it's only a challenge because white people have centered themselves as being the standard of beauty.
01:04:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes. Thank you. Yeah.
01:04:35
Steph
Yep.
01:04:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
01:04:36
Steph
Yeah.
01:04:36
Manni
Like that that is the standard of beauty.
01:04:39
Steph
Yep.
01:04:39
Manni
um And that translates into every institution in our society.
01:04:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
01:04:45
Manni
um
01:04:45
Steph
Mm-hmm.
Podcast Closing and Listener Engagement
01:04:46
Manni
You know, so.
01:04:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes. Thank you for, yeah, probably port certainly a poor choice of words on my part, but I i do appreciate that clarification.
01:04:48
Steph
Mm-hmm.
01:04:52
Manni
No, I get what you were saying, though.
01:04:52
Steph
love
01:04:53
Manni
Yeah. Yeah.
01:04:57
Steph
it well awesome thank you so much for joining us um as always we ask you to follow us on instagram at you can call me karen underscore pod and ah like and subscribe on apple podcasts or spotify and thank you and we'll see you soon
01:04:58
Manni
Yeah, what a wonderful episode.
01:05:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And if you want to see our merch, go watch us on YouTube.
01:05:23
Manni
Hello!
01:05:23
Steph
Thank you.
01:05:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
See you, Karens.