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Dance Part 2: The Seductive Sweetness of the Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders
56 Plays5 months ago
Welcome to episode 8 of the You Can Call Me Karen Podcast! This week we will dive into the seductive toxicity surrounding America’s Sweethearts, The Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Beneath their flawless appearances lies a deeper conversation about body image, diet culture, and the unrealistic beauty standards imposed on women in the public eye. Tune in to hear expert insight from Registered Dietician, owner and founder of Aligned Nutrition, Erica Butler. Together, we will share personal stories, and a critical analysis of how the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders reflect larger cultural conversations about appearance, identity, and the toxic influence of unrealistic beauty standards in the entertainment industry.
As always - a big thank you to Steve Olszewski for the art and images, Calid B and SJ Fadeaway for the musical mixings, and huge credit to Malvina Reynolds (writer) and Schroder Music Co. (ASCAP) (publisher) of the song “Little Boxes”.
Links to sources referenced in this episode:
Netflix DCC series:
https://www.netflix.com/title/81685878
The Ugly Process of Turning Beautiful Women Into Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders
Lastly, please follow us on Instagram (@youcancallmekaren), TikTok (@YCCMKPod), and like/subscribe wherever you get your podcasts!
Recommended
Transcript
Impact of 90s Culture on Body Image
00:00:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Growing up in the 90s gave me, and I would argue most of my female friends, some serious body image issues. and lots of unhealthy relationships with diet and exercise. After some growing up and doing a lot of work to undo that damage, I was flashed back in an instant after watching the Netflix series, America's Sweethearts, Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. I am one of your hosts, Karen Werwitz, and today we are going to discuss the Netflix DCC series and why it's not exactly what you think.
Podcast Introduction and Episode Overview
00:01:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All right, hello, and welcome to the You Can Call Me Karen pod, where we are going to be discussing events from the world around us in an effort to highlight our similarities rather than our differences. I am Karen Horwitz, and I am joined by my two dearest friends, Stephanie Jay and Monika Rosa.
00:01:28
Stephanie Jay
Hello very good
00:01:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah for this week's episode on Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders and the themes of that series that they are not saying out loud. But before we get to the topic, let us check in with my co-hosts for your Who You Calling Karen stories, Steph.
00:01:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Thanks.
00:01:49
Manni
Yeah.
Parental Over-involvement in Education
00:01:50
Manni
ah
00:01:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I keep trying so hard.
00:01:51
Stephanie Jay
you
00:01:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's not patronizing at all when you say that afterwards.
00:01:56
Manni
No, it really was. No, I mean, that came from a place of realness.
00:01:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah
00:02:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Steph, why don't you kick us off?
00:02:05
Stephanie Jay
Well, hello. Hi, everybody. um I'm going to do my best to tighten it up, because I've been told to tighten it up. um So tighten it up.
00:02:13
Manni
ah no che and
00:02:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yes
00:02:16
Stephanie Jay
so um So first of all, um something that i like I want to preface this story by saying that I teach at a school, and I feel like this could totally be a whole other episode, guys.
00:02:27
Manni
Hmm.
00:02:29
Stephanie Jay
But I teach at a school where there' it's like um retake central. Okay so like if students are struggling then it's on us as the teachers to reteach which in theory is great but then what started to happen was like kids would just start to like kind of fail on the first try on purpose so they could just get a retake and it was just kind of like whatever.
00:02:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:02:54
Stephanie Jay
So I just want to preface this by saying yes yes I teach in a culture of like um Our principals kind of say like it. What are you doing to help students who aren't succeeding. So I'm always I've always got a ah plan for students who have not passed a quiz. So I get kind of frustrated when I'm like hearing from parents like What what happened here?
00:03:14
Stephanie Jay
Like what do I do? And I'm like, I actually have to do everything. So I'm going to be doing a small group.
00:03:19
Manni
ah Right.
00:03:19
Stephanie Jay
I'm going to actually have I have an actual makeup assignment. I already have prepared. I have, ah you know, like I already have in place all these things that I do to help kids who struggle. And again, I'm not talking about true stuff. Strugglers.
00:03:29
Stephanie Jay
I'm talking about kids who So anyway, so to get to the point, I had a parent who was reaching out to me pretty often in regards to her daughter.
00:03:41
Stephanie Jay
But interestingly, this daughter was not a struggling student. like She was getting high Bs, low As on all her tests, all on her own without any sort of like reteaching or anything.
00:03:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm. Hmm.
00:03:53
Stephanie Jay
and but her mom was saying that she was struggling and I was like am I missing something so I was like zooming in like watching her carefully like I'm like man I'm not seeing a problem parent-teacher conferences roll around we have a meeting and it was pretty uncomfortable because she kept saying how struggling her daughter was and every teacher on the team was like we're not seeing
00:03:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:04:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:04:14
Stephanie Jay
what you're seeing. um And so we kind of quickly realized that this mom was overcompensating. um And she was kind of expecting her to be the type of student that maybe she was as a child, as opposed to accepting her child for who she was.
00:04:23
Manni
Hmm.
00:04:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:04:33
Stephanie Jay
you know like she was ah She is a solid B, low A student, and there's nothing wrong with that.
00:04:37
Manni
Yeah.
00:04:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That's great. Yeah.
00:04:39
Stephanie Jay
she That's really good.
00:04:40
Manni
Yeah.
00:04:41
Stephanie Jay
and um So anyway, one week she, we I have this weekly assignment that I give that gives some current content practice as well as practice on like previous topics.
00:04:53
Stephanie Jay
And basically um they get to try it all on their own. Most kids struggle with reaching back to old content. That's a skill in itself. And so I do a review session every week over it.
00:05:02
Manni
Right.
00:05:04
Stephanie Jay
And then I started throwing in quizzes on Fridays that touch on the same topics that are on that weekly assignment. So if you try the assignment, don't do well, come to my help session. By the time the quiz rolls around, you should be able to get a couple questions right.
00:05:18
Stephanie Jay
Homegirl got a 10 out of 10 on her first attempt of the the weekly assignment. So she didn't want to come to my yes.
00:05:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Nice.
00:05:24
Stephanie Jay
So I was like, awesome. And so I was like, she didn't want to come to help session.
00:05:28
Manni
Right on.
00:05:31
Stephanie Jay
because she already got a 10 out of 10. Way to go. So
Critique of Modern Education System
00:05:35
Stephanie Jay
she didn't want to come to help session because she had already gotten a 10 out of 10. Well, then a quiz rolled around on Friday over the same topics and she got zero, as in zero points.
00:05:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm sorry.
00:05:46
Stephanie Jay
As in like, no, she got not one.
00:05:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Out of how much?
00:05:49
Stephanie Jay
It was like 10 points, five questions.
00:05:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
A hundred.
00:05:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Damn, she got a zero?
00:05:54
Stephanie Jay
Zero points, yes. And so this is a quiz, like it doesn't go in the grade book, so like, whatever. Mom sends this very emotional, like, I don't know what to do, I can't believe my daughter's having this experience.
00:06:07
Stephanie Jay
And so instead of writing her back, I called her and I was like, hey, mom. um And she was like, I'm like, how are you doing? She's like, I've been better. Legit, that's how.
00:06:17
Manni
Oh geez!
00:06:19
Stephanie Jay
Yes, so I did, yeah.
00:06:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Wait.
00:06:20
Manni
What?
00:06:22
Stephanie Jay
She was like, I've been better.
00:06:22
Manni
Oh my god.
00:06:24
Stephanie Jay
And I was like, OK, um says like but that was the mom.
00:06:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
This was the mom?
00:06:28
Stephanie Jay
The kid what did but it couldn't have cared less because it wasn't going in the grade book.
00:06:28
Manni
oh
00:06:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Of course.
00:06:33
Manni
Right, because she lets her mom do her homework.
00:06:35
Stephanie Jay
ah Well, I finally, finally had to say it at the end of the call.
00:06:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Or.
00:06:39
Stephanie Jay
I was like, I just want to point out that the quiz was over the same topics on the weekly review assignment that she got a 10 out of 10 on.
00:06:48
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:06:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:06:49
Stephanie Jay
And mom finally it confessed because she was all like interior. I'd like, I just don't understand.
00:06:54
Manni
Oh my
00:06:54
Stephanie Jay
She didn't seem to be understanding like what, how are you teaching it? And then lo and behold, she finally admitted that she was doing did
00:07:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:07:02
Manni
God.
00:07:03
Stephanie Jay
And so the kid did it equals two.
00:07:04
Manni
Oh my God.
00:07:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like one plus one equals two, lady. We know what's happening here.
00:07:07
Manni
Yes.
00:07:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I am a math teacher.
00:07:10
Manni
Mind you.
00:07:14
Stephanie Jay
It was just interesting because I felt like she was teary and wanting me to like, you know, say that I was doing, she was crying and being, you know, so emotional.
00:07:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:07:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Ooh, tears.
00:07:24
Stephanie Jay
And lo and behold, she wasn't doing her daughter any favors by um stepping in and doing it for her.
00:07:27
Manni
Right.
00:07:29
Stephanie Jay
So I thought that was very Karen-ish.
00:07:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:07:32
Manni
Wow, yeah, that almost feels like some other like complex that should be in the like, yeah what's the like, DSMV for whatever, like that just feels like like something else, like like to not be able to ah make that connection of like, I did my homework for her and then cry about it, that just feels, I don't know, so bizarre to me.
00:07:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ham
00:07:45
Stephanie Jay
Oh, yeah.
00:07:51
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:07:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's me.
00:07:58
Stephanie Jay
It was.
00:07:58
Manni
And I was also thinking of,
00:07:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm the problem. It's me.
00:08:01
Manni
Yeah, um our guest is really gonna appreciate that reference.
00:08:01
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:08:06
Manni
um Personality disorders, yes.
00:08:11
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I was going to say, what is DSMV or whatever you said?
00:08:11
Stephanie Jay
name
00:08:15
Manni
It's like a book that ah that classifies all the various ah mental disorders that exist.
00:08:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
know
00:08:24
Stephanie Jay
who
00:08:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:08:25
Manni
And um I feel like this is,
00:08:27
Stephanie Jay
It has like a list of symptoms and typically if you are diagnosing someone they have like a certain number of the symptoms in order to qualify for the diagnosis, if I remember correctly, from my psych degree three million years ago.
00:08:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:08:38
Manni
yep Yeah, yeah. No, that was great. You did wonderful.
00:08:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Forgot you had one of those. Yeah, good work.
00:08:43
Manni
yeah
00:08:44
Stephanie Jay
I have one of those.
00:08:45
Manni
And I think like before I get into my Karen, I just, I want to say when I taught in Virginia, taught I teach in New Jersey and I think this is like a epidemic that's ah happening across the nation.
00:09:00
Manni
I don't think that that's just to your district. I think our definition of success has ah completely shifted where I teach undergrad students and getting a C is failing.
00:09:13
Manni
Like literally that is in the, that is
00:09:14
Stephanie Jay
Absolutely.
00:09:16
Manni
written into the syllabus from the Department of Education that a C is failing for undergrad.
00:09:18
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:09:22
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:09:23
Manni
And I'm like, excuse me, they are still learning how to deal with time management, how to balance their classes, like, let them have a beat and be proud of it.
00:09:27
Stephanie Jay
home
00:09:34
Manni
it is really hard to get a B in college.
00:09:34
Stephanie Jay
Right.
00:09:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:09:36
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:09:37
Manni
you know And so I just think our whole the whole education system and grading scale system has really turned into this competitive nightmare.
00:09:47
Manni
And I don't i don't i hope it changes because then I don't want you to have to deal with stories like this again.
00:09:47
Stephanie Jay
here and i and my And I hope that it doesn't come off as like, I don't feel like I should help kids who are struggling because that's not what I believe at all.
00:10:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
No, no, that's not what it comes off as.
00:10:01
Stephanie Jay
But I do feel like there's good.
00:10:01
Manni
No, that's not what I heard. I heard that it is October.
00:10:03
Stephanie Jay
I just do feel like there's a pressure and she's still trying to get, yeah, acclimated.
00:10:06
Manni
It's October.
00:10:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
mother
00:10:09
Manni
We need to measure growth, right? We need to measure progress. And she's at a B. So by June, if she's at a B now, by June, she can meet the A.
00:10:16
Stephanie Jay
e
00:10:19
Manni
And here's how we're going to get her there.
00:10:20
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:10:22
Manni
But we got to start with actually having her do the work.
00:10:22
Stephanie Jay
Exactly. Do the work. Yes. Preach.
00:10:27
Manni
Sorry, yeah. and Well, that's one thing I can do. Okay, so my
Introducing 'Chads' and Entitlement
00:10:32
Manni
candid story of the week.
00:10:32
Stephanie Jay
ah think
00:10:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Are you a preacher? Did I not know?
00:10:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I would come to that church, just FYI.
00:10:43
Manni
Oh
00:10:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, I fucking would. And to our listeners, I would not go to many churches, I'm just saying.
00:10:52
Manni
Karen's an atheist, no.
00:10:56
Manni
bused We just lost a million followers.
00:10:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And the quiet part out loud.
00:11:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Jeez. Aw, it was nice.
00:11:03
Manni
Okay.
00:11:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It was fun while it lasted, but.
00:11:05
Manni
yeah
00:11:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
ah
00:11:07
Manni
So my Karen of the week, I realized that we do a lot of Karens that are women. And I don't want that to be um something that you know is assumed that i only women have this characteristic of entitlement.
00:11:22
Manni
So I want to bring um an experience from ah what we call them chads, I guess. I don't i don't know the the name, the male equivalent.
00:11:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Someone told me it's not Chad, but we I like Chad.
00:11:31
Manni
but
00:11:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Let's go with Chad.
00:11:34
Manni
OK, for the purposes of this podcast, we're going to call them Chad.
00:11:34
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm. i like yeah
00:11:38
Manni
So.
00:11:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And we'll take votes afterwards of what Batman could be.
00:11:41
Manni
yeah yeah Yes, tell us in the comments section.
00:11:47
Stephanie Jay
a
00:11:48
Manni
what you think the name is. um So a couple of years ago, maybe last year, we were flying and um I had Millie, I was sitting in a seat next to Millie and Brielle, she sits by herself now and Luke and Miles sit together. And so Millie, before the flight even took off, was um like trying to get situated and kicking this guy's chair in front of us.
00:12:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Uh-oh.
00:12:17
Manni
And this, uh-huh, and this guy, right yeah this Chad turns around, not to me, but to my then five or six year old daughter and is like, um, excuse me, do you mind letting your mommy know?
00:12:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Dad.
00:12:27
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, no.
00:12:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh. Oh, my God.
00:12:37
Manni
Uh-huh, yes. That like, it's not polite for you to kick the seats of other people in front of you. i I was like, yes, I was enraged.
00:12:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Did he talk like that? Oh.
00:12:52
Manni
I was enraged. I was like, we got it. You need to turn around. I really wanted to be like, excuse me. I'm sorry. Are you a 30-year-old man traveling by your fucking self?
00:13:08
Manni
On this flight, shut the fuck up.
00:13:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And Manny gets kicked off the plane.
00:13:15
Manni
And then i end now I'm the Karen. But really, my goodness.
00:13:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
that
00:13:22
Manni
Turn around and don't talk to my daughter or a dresser.
00:13:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Chad, seriously.
00:13:26
Manni
Lord have mercy. So that's my chat of weeks.
00:13:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Everybody knows that the plain etiquette is when a child is behind you. You, in your head, curse them out the entire time and you don't say anything out loud.
00:13:36
Manni
right those Those are the rules.
00:13:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Everybody knows those are the rules.
00:13:39
Stephanie Jay
Uh-huh.
00:13:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So Chad, sit down and shut the fuck up.
00:13:43
Stephanie Jay
Wow.
00:13:43
Manni
seriously sorry bro like you're not the lucky one today you sure did yep
00:13:50
Karen, Steph, & Manni
You lost the seating lottery. Now airplane Chad be quiet. On that note. All right, those are your Karen's and Chad's for the week. um We will be accepting votes for the best male Karen name. And now let's dive right in.
00:14:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All right. So for this two-episode series, we are going to focus on DCC, the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. And we are joined for those watching. You got
Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders: Unrealistic Expectations
00:14:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a sneak peek. We are joined by our dear friend Erica Butler. She is the owner. Hey, Erica. Welcome. Erica is the owner of Aligned Nutrition. She is a dietitian who specializes in eating disorders and intuitive eating.
00:14:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And in addition to all of her accolades, she is also a Buckeye alum. She's an Ohio State alum. We all went to school together.
00:14:57
Manni
Woo hoo!
00:14:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We all danced in college together. And so this topic is near and dear to our hearts for so many reasons. I'm sorry, I'm distracted by the OHIOs that are happening on my screen right now.
00:15:06
Manni
Oh, wait.
00:15:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Man, we are alienating so many listeners.
00:15:10
Manni
but
00:15:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
We're getting rid of like ah Michigan fans today. We're just like, sorry, please keep listening. um
00:15:20
Manni
ah fuck was
00:15:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So this week, we will begin unpacking this Netflix series on the Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. As former dancers ourselves, have certainly all taken an interest in this series, and it has resurfaced a lot of things for us regarding um not just the dance, but body image, diet and exercise, feminism, and so much more.
00:15:34
Erica Butler
I know!
00:15:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So this week, it's a lot to unpack. This week, we're gonna focus on The themes around body, image, physical, appearance, unrealistic expectations. Next week, we're going to dive into some of the deeper undertones of the show that that surround the role of the coaches, the sexualization of the dancers, and certainly the contradictory religious themes versus like wholesome southern culture thing that's woven throughout.
00:16:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
so for this week let's dive right in and let's get initial reactions from you all of you know what came up for you when you were watching this what did you notice or what didn't you notice maybe based on what I've teed up here and Steph I think you watched it most recently so let's start with you.
00:16:34
Stephanie Jay
yeah so it was weird because i was watching it through the lens of watching the dancing and realizing it's a style of dance that we didn't do like on on the dance team.
00:16:49
Stephanie Jay
I didn't grow up doing anything like that, I guess, and ah very like sexy and flashy. and um so I was just kind of intrigued by that because the dancers that auditioned to be ah Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders are so talented um and have like these like amazing backgrounds and and they now yes and so I'm like it's just I was intrigued by the fact that it's such a competitive team to make and you have to have all these skills but at the end of the day
00:17:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:17:10
Manni
Now.
00:17:26
Stephanie Jay
Not a lot of those skills are showcased. Yes, they have the high kick in the split, but like the the movement doesn't lend itself.
00:17:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:17:30
Manni
Yeah. Wow.
00:17:34
Stephanie Jay
Do you know what I mean? So I was kind of taken by that a lot.
00:17:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:17:36
Manni
Yeah, that's a great impression.
00:17:39
Stephanie Jay
um And then I was also, and then of course what, you know, the triggering thing, I i wasn't really that triggered except for the story of the dancer Victoria, who I know, who like ended up taking a year um because of having an eating disorder.
00:17:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:17:57
Stephanie Jay
And the season that she was back, what set me off was the meal that she had that um on screen.
00:17:59
Erica Butler
Thank you.
00:18:05
Stephanie Jay
And it was like the rice cake.
00:18:06
Erica Butler
And finally.
00:18:08
Stephanie Jay
the watermelon the and that's like set me off because it reminded me of you know just my my issues with my body and like things that I had done and to try to lose weight or be smaller and all that kind of stuff especially dancing so um so yeah there was like some body image stuff that like conjured up for me and then just as a dance teacher and
00:18:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:18:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm hmm.
00:18:35
Stephanie Jay
um thinking of these crazy talented you know even some of the kids that did women excuse me that didn't make the team who were like bananas good dancers and you're just like what because the you know they don't have a certain look like this is off the charts
00:18:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mmhmm. Yeah.
00:18:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well, and even the code they were like the coaches were saying the at a certain level that they aren't picking the women that necessarily are the most talented dancer.
00:19:09
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:19:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's like they're looking for the look at this point, you know at the point of them being at these auditions.
00:19:12
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:19:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So as as former dancers, I feel like that's really frustrating because you're like, no, just take the talent.
00:19:21
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:19:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
but um Yeah, your your observations are super interesting.
00:19:26
Manni
Yeah.
DCC Organization and Body Image Issues
00:19:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Erica, I'd love for you to build on that a bit because you obviously work in this field. And so I'm sure what you saw was a little bit different than what we saw.
00:19:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So what kind of reactions do you have?
00:19:44
Erica Butler
Yeah, it's interesting. I found the show to be endlessly complicated. um And I think that what Steph introduced is this concept of there's so much about this organization that is tied to legacy tradition that is still in the 1970s. And then so much I think they're proud of that they think they've evolved in, but in really a lot of ways they haven't.
00:20:09
Erica Butler
And so, you know, with Steph, you know, you saying about the dance, like you know, the level of skill and that not really being utilized.
00:20:16
Manni
Hmm.
00:20:16
Erica Butler
And i maybe we'll talk about this later on, but, you know, the the women who are in leadership and like, what are their qualifications? What are the judges' qualifications for choosing who is making the team?
00:20:28
Erica Butler
And so you're probably not surprised to know that as far as eating disorders, body image, that I was seeing some of the same themes. You know, we talk about, you know, they're not, I think they do ah a ah real show of saying, hey, you know, we're not doing weigh-ins.
00:20:44
Erica Butler
They talk about at one of the practices, like food being fueled. Are you fueled? Are you strong?
00:20:49
Stephanie Jay
a
00:20:49
Manni
Right.
00:20:50
Erica Butler
um You know, we're not calling people fat on screen, um but we're talking about, you know, the size of someone's thigh or their God-given height.
00:20:53
Manni
Right.
00:20:58
Manni
Hmm.
00:20:58
Erica Butler
You know, there's so many interesting ways
00:20:59
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:20:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:21:01
Erica Butler
that people's ah looks are picked apart, you know things that they can potentially change and then things that they aren't.
00:21:02
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:21:08
Erica Butler
And so i think the docu-series is so well done. They just lead the viewer to make their own conclusions. I mean, it's almost poetic at times.
00:21:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:21:15
Manni
Right.
00:21:17
Erica Butler
And so I think that there is this presentation of, hey, we're we're evolved. you know we we are Here we are talking about are these amazing athletes Um, and, and we're not, you know, subjecting them to some of these things of the past, but I think evolution would be, you know, making a uniform to fit and the athlete, to not be required to fit into.
00:21:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a
00:21:41
Erica Butler
these objectified, tiny you know uniforms. I mean, they're iconic, no doubt. um But just you know like you were saying, there's so many people that are so talented that are not making this team because we're we're saying it's about skill.
00:21:53
Erica Butler
We're saying it's about it factor. We're saying it's the best of the best. But what we're not saying is it's about being a certain look.
00:22:00
Manni
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, your point on the height, I remember there was like a point when they were making the final selection where they're like, at what point do we start making a height requirement? And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you're going to just cut out people because literally genetics.
00:22:11
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:22:15
Manni
Well.
00:22:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So like, where do you draw the line?
00:22:18
Manni
well Not to like give them any credit in that, but like in Stephanie, you might know this because you have a dancer who's like that, but um the Rockettes, is there not a height requirement for the Rockettes?
00:22:28
Erica Butler
Hmm.
00:22:30
Stephanie Jay
there is There is a height requirement.
00:22:31
Erica Butler
Hmm.
00:22:32
Manni
So like, yeah, so that's industry.
00:22:34
Stephanie Jay
the it's um The heights, ah it there's a window. It used to be 5'7 to 5'10, but two years ago, I believe they lowered it to 5'5.
00:22:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Whoa.
00:22:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my God.
00:22:47
Manni
Yeah, because of the kick line, right?
00:22:47
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Just because that's industry does not make that
00:22:47
Stephanie Jay
It was a good kick line. yeah
00:22:52
Manni
No, again, I'm not I'm not defending them but I will say, I mean I think okay so I'll give one up like it going in that point of like the talent is not represented on the field.
00:23:05
Erica Butler
Thank you.
00:23:06
Manni
um in comparison to, we have to realize, the the football players who are, like imagine if you just, if the Dallas Cowboys team was made up of football players who just had the look and like, it wasn't the, um walk down walk got and all oh, be a very different game.
00:23:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm, I'd watch that game.
00:23:24
Stephanie Jay
yeah and so Oh God.
00:23:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It would be a very different game, I think.
00:23:33
Stephanie Jay
yeah
00:23:39
Manni
But like the fact that like for the cheerleaders, like you the audition, I'm just thinking about like what I know about like football and the combine and like what the those football players go through actually to make the team.
00:23:50
Manni
And they tried to present the audition as the same thing. And they even did some things where they brought in outside people to be on a panel. But at the end of the day, it was the coaches who were making the cuts.
00:23:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:24:01
Manni
you know And so you know it just was so much like ambiguity in the audition process.
00:24:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And sorry to interrupt you, but the outside people, like one guy makes the boots.
00:24:13
Manni
Yeah.
00:24:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I'm like, what what can you judge on dance talent?
00:24:16
Manni
Yeah.
00:24:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, get out of here.
00:24:18
Manni
yeah
00:24:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Also, i anyways, I'll leave it at that. Sorry, Manny, please proceed.
00:24:23
Manni
Okay. I don't know. Where were you going with that? Also what? Tell us.
00:24:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
nothing nothing
00:24:31
Manni
Oh, you little tease. Um, but yeah, I was just, that that's kind of where I was going to say is that like, you know, the, the talent portion, It just is like, why is that acceptable to um not accept the greatest talent in the dance industry, but in any other competitive sport that's not the standard, you know?
00:24:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:24:58
Manni
And so that, I don't know, it's just like a wondering, I guess, or question of like when we're talking about industry, right? When we're talking about showbiz, right?
00:25:05
Stephanie Jay
Mmhmm.
00:25:07
Manni
and auditioning you know i I heard that a lot growing up right of like sometimes you can just walk in they'll look at your outfit and they'll say no no right um and so that I don't I don't know if we'll ever really I don't know what it will take to get the industry to get to a point where looks don't weigh so much more than talent
00:25:12
Stephanie Jay
Mmhmm.
00:25:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
mm hmm.
00:25:15
Stephanie Jay
Mmhmm.
00:25:15
Erica Butler
Right.
00:25:30
Stephanie Jay
That's that is a that is conjuring up some stuff for me just because you know as a dance teacher and we go to convention and the kids audition for scholarships and you know we encourage our dancers to when they walk in the audition make sure that you stand in the front stand in the center because in these convention rooms there's like 400 kids it's like how what do you do to set yourself apart when we're advising young dancers for like you want to look cute you want to wear bright colors you want to you know so they can see oh that dancer in the yellow or that dancer in the green so we tell them like
00:25:56
Manni
Hmm.
00:26:03
Manni
Hmm.
00:26:05
Stephanie Jay
dress in bright colors you know make sure your hair is neat and like all these things older kids and you want to look mature and like not you don't want to look like wearing a big hair bow and you want to look like older and um that kind of stuff and and so it's like are like auditioning is ah like so embedded in the dance community.
00:26:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:26:26
Stephanie Jay
ah You're auditioning to be a ballerina. You're auditioning to be in a music video. You're auditioning. and And always, the dance community is like, there's going to be some appearance that you need.
00:26:37
Stephanie Jay
There's a certain costume that you're going to end up having to wear. like And I just feel like what DCC does is take it to the next extreme. like Actually, this costume isn't going to be about this big.
00:26:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:26:48
Stephanie Jay
And you kind of fit in it. And it's like they kind of are preying on a community that already has all these like rules about how you're supposed to appear and be in an audition.
00:26:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:26:59
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:27:01
Stephanie Jay
And like we're telling them, like you want to be the best dancer like you can possibly be. and um But we remind our dancers that that's not always rewarded, and which is so can always is always frustrating.
00:27:07
Manni
Yeah.
00:27:13
Stephanie Jay
It's not always rewarded, even if you did a great job.
00:27:14
Manni
Yeah.
00:27:17
Manni
Yeah, I want to jump in on the, wait, Karen, do you want to tell the listener something about me?
00:27:22
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:27:26
Manni
Well, I didn't get to it say my reaction.
00:27:26
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh Oh, you want me to do?
00:27:27
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:27:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
that Yeah. So um ah what Manny is awkwardly referring to is she was a Cleveland Cavs girl back in the day.
00:27:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I think when we were in college, right?
00:27:44
Manni
Yeah, my senior year.
00:27:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So um obviously this one probably hits home for you in terms of just like all of the image and the look and everything. I'd love to hear as you were watching it, did that give you memories of that time?
00:28:01
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like what was similar? Maybe what was different? what What's your reaction there?
00:28:04
Manni
Yeah, i can i I can kind of lead this in through some of our um questions that we might have coming up, but the one thing that I did want to say that really stuck out to me and Erica, it might've been you that was just talking about like the um uniform and how like they sew and stitch the uniform to be like basically glued to your body only for at the end of the season, you to hang it up and never wear it again.
00:28:30
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:28:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:28:32
Manni
Like that, for me feels like the definition of emotional abuse because you just spent your whole like year working for that uniform.
00:28:46
Manni
That is the, that is what like the, the, all of these girls, they said their, their earliest memory was, was the Dallas cowboy cheerleader uniform.
00:28:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm hmm.
00:28:56
Manni
And then they, they make these remarks about your body, about your fitness, about your physique, so that you can fit in that uniform only to take it away from you at the end. So you have nothing to show for that you actually went through this whole experience. And that I think is what triggered me the most because that's what happened to me on the calves is that I had to return everything at the end of the season and there was nothing to show for that I had met this is like for dancers if anyone who's listening who's not familiar or friends with a dancer this like going to dance professionally for an NBA or an NFL team is the highest
00:29:30
Stephanie Jay
Amen.
Experiences of Professional Dancers
00:29:38
Stephanie Jay
Amen.
00:29:38
Manni
like that like some of us that's like the highest that we can make it you know and so to not be able to like have any kind of legacy to show my children that I did this with like the actual costume it feels um it's so it's like a heartache of mine yeah yeah
00:29:39
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like abuse.
00:29:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And I think on the um the show, they talk about how these things are like actually crafted to these women's bodies. like They are handmade for them individually.
00:30:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's not like when they turn it back in, some girl next year is gonna pick these up and wear the same thing.
00:30:09
Manni
Hmm.
00:30:12
Manni
Right.
00:30:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
So it's literally just to just to like mentally fuck with them.
00:30:17
Manni
Right.
00:30:21
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:30:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
i don't There's no other explanation for you know, doing that, I don't get that.
00:30:30
Manni
Yeah.
00:30:30
Erica Butler
I don't think they're shy about presenting that you are giving over your identity.
00:30:35
Manni
Hmm.
00:30:37
Erica Butler
This becomes who you are, everything, your top priority. And then yeah, when that is, you know, and you're so busy, I mean, the schedule that these women hold, I just i ah really adored hearing the stories of each of the women and the grit and how they got there.
00:30:53
Erica Butler
And so, you know, a lot of this is just really seeing them as part of this huge system that I hope can change over time, but it's like,
00:31:00
Manni
Ugh.
00:31:01
Erica Butler
They're so busy. They're so distracted. They're doing all of these things. All eggs are in one basket. you know you're You're done by the time you're 25. Like you said, you're a senior ah in college, and you're hanging that uniform up.
00:31:12
Erica Butler
So I think there's just a lot of that short life cycle. um you know like what do you What do you do next? How do you move on from that? and just Yeah, it's just interesting the way.
00:31:21
Manni
ah
00:31:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
It's something you just said there really struck me. So like you're asked to be, like you're asked to take on this identity, like as if you don't have your own personal identity anymore.
00:31:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Whereas you think about the contrast of like the football players, they have their name on the back of their uniform. You know, like they are individuals, they are in they are paid a ton of money.
00:31:44
Manni
Right.
00:31:49
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And then these cheerleaders are asked to be DCC, like,
00:31:49
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:31:49
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:31:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
nameless, you know, like fit whatever physical appearance that the coaches want of them. They change their hair color. They change their makeup. They change their whole like look. They put them in a costume that is the same for everybody with no like unique identifiers. It's fascinating. Like what is that? Gosh.
00:32:15
Karen, Steph, & Manni
and
00:32:17
Erica Butler
But there's also a layer of exploitation even where, you know, they have their social media that they're, you know, they, you know, that's part of the package is, you know, you're, and I know we'll get into this at our next episode more about like the pay and the deeper aspects of this, but just that they are using their name and likeness on their social media.
00:32:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:32:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hm.
00:32:37
Erica Butler
And that, but that's almost an excuse for them to not be paid. So, you know, like you were saying, this weird imbalance.
00:32:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:32:43
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:32:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. So um shifting a little bit, i I know Steph, you mentioned in your initial reactions, that meal that I think it was Victoria, right?
00:32:53
Stephanie Jay
Hmm.
00:32:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
That she was shown eating and she had talked a lot about her struggles with eating disorder and her body image.
00:32:58
Stephanie Jay
Yes.
00:33:06
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And well, it seems like she had.
00:33:08
Erica Butler
Can I point out something about that?
00:33:10
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, please.
00:33:11
Erica Butler
Something I noticed in the show is they always said, you know, anxiety, depression.
00:33:11
Manni
Yeah.
00:33:15
Erica Butler
And I don't know if the word eating disorder was ever said, but it was implied, which I thought was interesting.
00:33:20
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm.
00:33:20
Manni
Wow.
00:33:23
Manni
who
00:33:23
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:33:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
About her specifically?
00:33:25
Erica Butler
Yeah, it was more about her anxiety and depression. And I felt like the eating aspect was more implied, but it was never explicitly stated, which...
00:33:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:33:34
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I didn't even realize that.
00:33:34
Manni
Yeah, they never explicitly said that about an eating disorder.
00:33:37
Erica Butler
Mm-hmm.
00:33:38
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But on on that note, yes.
00:33:38
Stephanie Jay
But then they showed like photos of her like super thin and then they like, um, and then they showed like people commenting like, you don't need to lose any more weight.
00:33:43
Erica Butler
Mm-hmm.
00:33:46
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:33:47
Stephanie Jay
But like, but so it was very much implied, but like you're right.
00:33:51
Manni
But I think that was Netflix.
00:33:51
Stephanie Jay
They did.
00:33:53
Manni
I don't think that that was the team. I think that was Netflix having to show receipts and have ethical principles because they knew the team would not.
00:33:56
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh, right.
00:33:56
Stephanie Jay
well
00:34:00
Stephanie Jay
a Wow.
00:34:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:34:05
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:34:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:34:06
Stephanie Jay
Right. Catch that.
00:34:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. So, like, along these lines, I am curious to hear, like, Erika, your thoughts on Um, more on this, like how they portrayed eating, you mentioned fuel, like that they talked about fueling your bodies, but I don't feel like we ever saw much fuel actually going into them.
00:34:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like I don't recall much.
00:34:28
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:34:31
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Protein, much, many carbohydrates. Like you said, Steph, it was like a rice cake and watermelon or something that she was eating.
00:34:37
Stephanie Jay
What what rice cake watermelon some deli turkey.
00:34:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mmm.
00:34:42
Manni
Yeah, and I would like to, I think like we have a really
00:34:42
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:34:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yum.
00:34:47
Manni
um great opportunity right now having an intuitive eating specialist on here like I think along with that question like I'd want to know like how do you work how would you work with a Victoria if she came to see you like I was struck by like what Stephanie was saying of like she took a year off and then coming back this is her meal you know like
00:34:59
Stephanie Jay
Oh, hello.
00:35:08
Manni
What did she do during that year off?
00:35:10
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm, in here.
00:35:10
Manni
you know So um I'd like to like hear some of your expertise of like working with the the women that you work with, the young women that you work with. How would you work along somebody like Victoria in your work that you do and and share a little bit of light on that?
Intuitive Eating and DCC Series Critique
00:35:27
Erica Butler
Yeah, absolutely. it was um It was interesting. And I think part of our theme of this episode has been you know this the backdrop of our millennial girlhood. And I don't know about you, Steph, but what came up for me was, oh, remembering reading Cosmo.
00:35:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
now
00:35:37
Manni
Uh-huh.
00:35:41
Erica Butler
And it was a a supermodel of what I eat in a day.
00:35:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:35:43
Erica Butler
And so Victoria's meal was you know way under what I would ever recommend for a meal, even a snack.
00:35:49
Manni
Uh-huh.
00:35:50
Erica Butler
um you know, especially for an athlete.
00:35:51
Karen, Steph, & Manni
my gosh.
00:35:52
Erica Butler
So to answer your question, Manika, you know, this does come up a lot in the people that I work with, where, you know, kind of like we were talking about, this is the industry, you know, I've worked with actresses, I've worked with the military, I've worked with gymnasts, I've worked with plenty of people that have an image focused career or sport that they're part of.
00:36:10
Erica Butler
So there is this, again, complexity of, you know, maintaining something that is potentially false, for you or maybe unnatural for you to achieve in your body.
00:36:17
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:36:20
Erica Butler
So your behaviors, what you're eating, how you're working out, how sustainable that is, it's that becomes a question. So if I was working with someone like Victoria and I have, you know if it's something that is severe enough or unsustainable enough, we start going Okay.
00:36:37
Erica Butler
How important is this, you know, being an actress or being a dancer to you, because it doesn't seem that you're able to maintain this physique that is demanded of you in a way that's sustainable, AKA eating a realistic amount of food.
00:36:39
Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:36:40
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:36:41
Manni
Oh.
00:36:52
Erica Butler
um
00:36:52
Manni
Uh-huh.
00:36:53
Erica Butler
And so, ah or, a you know, amount of exercise that is sustainable or even to take it broader, you know, what is, what impact does it have on your any co-occurring mental health or life um or relationships?
00:37:02
Manni
Right.
00:37:06
Erica Butler
And I don't, I think with the DCC that again, they're so upfront about this is your life, you know, live, breathe, eat, move, whatever, that there's already so much sacrifice taking place on your relationships, your time, you know, your energy that, you know, the idea of,
00:37:21
Erica Butler
you know molding your body to fit a certain way. so if i So if I was working with someone, it would, it would be really complicated. And that's why you know having this conversation with you guys is is fascinating to me because it's there's no real solution. um and It's more about looking at an individual. um And so with Victoria taking a year off, I mean, gosh, yeah, I wonder,
00:37:44
Erica Butler
you know, what kind of healing she did. It sounds like it was great for her, but then, um, you know, ultimately she figured out when she came back, it wasn't, you know, what she, the dream that she had since she was a little girl.
00:37:55
Erica Butler
Um, and so, but as a dietician, I'd be looking at, yeah, how can you, you know, sustain your body, um, for, for your sport.
00:38:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:38:01
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:38:01
Manni
Yeah.
00:38:03
Erica Butler
And so it, yeah, if you're maintaining that type of leanness year round, you know, how, how naturally can you do that?
00:38:05
Manni
i I have a follow up question to that in the complexity of Victoria and we can talk more about Victoria.
00:38:12
Erica Butler
I don't know.
00:38:13
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:38:18
Manni
I had a question and or for our next episode, but like in the work that you do, do you generally work? I think you work with younger women, um but but maybe you could clarify that for our audience.
00:38:28
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:38:30
Manni
And then also like one of the things that
00:38:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:38:33
Manni
was Victoria has a lot going on, but one of the things was her um attachment to her mom's legacy.
00:38:37
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm
00:38:40
Manni
And so when you work with these young women, do you work with them and their parents or is it strictly your client?
00:38:41
Karen, Steph, & Manni
-hm.
00:38:48
Manni
Does it depend on the age? Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, I think that that relationship between Victoria and her mom was also a little bit of the cause of what we were seeing.
00:38:57
Stephanie Jay
Because that plate her mom fixed.
00:38:58
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:39:01
Manni
What'd you say?
00:39:02
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh Oh my gosh.
00:39:03
Manni
Oh, play her mom fix.
00:39:03
Stephanie Jay
mom fixed.
00:39:05
Manni
Yes.
00:39:07
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:39:07
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:39:09
Manni
Yeah.
00:39:10
Erica Butler
It's interesting when we're looking at this kind of stuff, you are definitely unpacking your relationship to food, you know, growing up where you got certain messages about things, but we might also be looking at, you know, biological um things. So if someone was dieting frequently or they had their wisdom teeth taken out and they couldn't eat very well, like there's a lot of things that can set off disordered eating and eating disorders. So it can be biological in nature. It can be stress.
00:39:39
Erica Butler
It can be trauma based. It can be more social learned, which I see a lot in sports and appearance focused sports. um It can also be um maybe more addiction or um kind of based in that pathology or co-occurring with something like obsessive compulsive disorder.
00:39:55
Erica Butler
So usually we are looking at, you know, if I'm working with someone, I don't want them working with me forever.
00:40:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh.
00:40:01
Erica Butler
You know, I want them to have support and to create support. So if, depending on someone's age or their relationship or their desires with their support people, whether that's their parents, their family, their friends, we might be doing some psycho education of like, okay, mom, um, you know, thank you so much for helping Victoria with her.
00:40:20
Erica Butler
anxiety, depression, eating disorder, behaviors, et cetera.
00:40:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mhm.
00:40:25
Erica Butler
Here's what Victoria needs for breakfast and giving her, you know it's maybe not a rice cake. Maybe it's a little bit more turkey. Maybe it's a sandwich.
00:40:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes.
00:40:34
Erica Butler
Maybe it's a wrap. Maybe it's you know something that's more calorically dense. And so that is often the dietician's job is to help that person figure out what ah okay you know what actually does it take to sustain your body as a support.
00:40:49
Erica Butler
And then you know whether somebody's body can you know be stage ready or maintain that type of physique naturally. I don't know. It does. It becomes a question. I don't know any of the eating habits of any of the other girls um or you know what it takes for someone to to um, maintain that physique.
Parental Influence on Eating Habits
00:41:07
Erica Butler
I mean, certainly there are people that, you know, we wouldn't just assume that everyone is maintaining that, you know, through unnatural, um, behaviors, but it's certainly, um, uh, not common for someone to be maintaining a very low body fat, you know, year round, um, as a woman.
00:41:22
Karen, Steph, & Manni
All right.
00:41:24
Erica Butler
Um, so we, we look at a lot of other biological markers, you know,
00:41:28
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, it's interesting your comments about the relationship between Victoria and her mom.
00:41:29
Manni
Yeah. You're so smart.
00:41:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
um The relationship between like your paper patients or patients.
00:41:42
Erica Butler
either one.
00:41:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
clients or and their mothers when they're young, and then stuff thinking back to your who you call and Karen stories and like the relationship between.
00:41:49
Manni
What?
00:41:51
Stephanie Jay
Mm.
00:41:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes, full circle.
00:41:56
Manni
Oh, couple circle, okay.
00:41:57
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But like, right?
00:42:00
Manni
Yes.
00:42:00
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Isn't that is that's a theme we've got to, we've got to talk about some time in more depth.
00:42:01
Manni
ah
00:42:05
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But um this like, it It feels like the intent, like the desire of the mom is is good. they They think they're doing the right thing for their child by, you know, like limiting caloric intake so that they don't get judged by society or whatever.
00:42:20
Stephanie Jay
Doing their homework.
00:42:25
Karen, Steph, & Manni
But it's like, gosh, all of this, like, right?
00:42:26
Manni
Mm hmm.
00:42:26
Erica Butler
And did mom learn that being a cheerleader herself or was it more genetically mediated?
00:42:28
Manni
Right, right.
00:42:32
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:32
Erica Butler
I don't know.
00:42:33
Manni
Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly Steph's point of like, the mom's doing the math, but the math looks different.
00:42:35
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, that's...
00:42:40
Manni
In 2024, then whatever year it was that the mom was doing the math, you know, and so like, we need your daughter to learn how to do it.
00:42:44
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. Well, and daughter needs to freaking learn.
00:42:45
Erica Butler
Yeah.
00:42:46
Stephanie Jay
daughter needs to to try it herself. um And she's going to her journey to understand is going to be different than her mom's and wow.
00:42:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:42:49
Manni
Yeah.
00:42:49
Erica Butler
yeah
00:42:50
Manni
Wow.
00:42:55
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:42:57
Manni
Yeah, I think that that like kind of is like um as like an overall like impression on this show is like the amount of interference that the adults have in these formative years
Control in Dance and Performance Industries
00:43:07
Manni
of these women.
00:43:08
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:43:10
Manni
It's like, what is the appropriate amount of interference and coach what is the appropriate amount of coaching? And what is the like toxic amount of interference? And I think that that is like what I really struggled with because I, you know, again, being a dancer and having
00:43:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mmm.
00:43:25
Manni
the background that we have and in performance, like I understand to a certain extent, but some of it just felt like pure like control.
00:43:36
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yes. Control is ah is a theme that was like in every step of the process for me in this show.
00:43:40
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:43:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it's really upsetting. I also, um I think we probably want to wrap up here soon and and we'll pick this up again next week. But one thing that just struck me, Erica, you brought up the the reminders of reading Cosmo and in like your early teen years and stuff.
00:44:04
Karen, Steph, & Manni
which definitely came to mind. I also recall watching um recently a Victoria's Secret. I don't know if it was actually about Victoria's Secret or if it was about Les Wexner, some documentary on Netflix, I think.
00:44:19
Karen, Steph, & Manni
And it covered all of these like images that were put out in the 90s that were just totally unattainable, like these women's bodies that were
00:44:26
Erica Butler
Mm hmm.
00:44:29
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Starved probably and also totally airbrushed. So it just set all of these unrealistic expectations and that is like what is in all of our psyches now all of us Millennials, you know that are Constantly comparing our bodies to things that are just not even real Images that were never real in the first place um And yeah, it was it was wild to me that this was filmed last year and it feels like such
00:44:47
Manni
Yeah. Yeah.
00:44:58
Karen, Steph, & Manni
a dated ah mentality that I thought I thought we were mostly past.
00:45:02
Manni
Well, I'd like to challenge that. I'd like to challenge that a little bit because like isn't that what filters are? you know like And you guys, again, are not on TikTok.
00:45:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:45:11
Manni
But like the filters on TikTok completely change your look.
00:45:16
Karen, Steph, & Manni
yeah
00:45:16
Manni
like I just saw a woman, and I can try to link this too, but I just saw a woman do a post, and it was a beautiful post. But it started out about like what your face is supposed to look like. And she's like, I just want to remind everyone, like faces don't look like this.
00:45:28
Manni
And she started with a filter. And then she took the filter off and she's like, faces are supposed to have this, faces are supposed to have that, you know?
00:45:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah. ah
00:45:35
Manni
And so like, I mean, and and not to challenge you in a way that like you're wrong. I'm just saying like, it's trans it's transformed into something else with like the filter for social media.
00:45:42
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah, it's different now.
00:45:44
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:45:46
Manni
You can completely just airbrush your face.
00:45:47
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:45:48
Manni
You you can give yourself eyelashes and you can really catfish somebody with a filter.
00:45:53
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:45:53
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:45:54
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Well, okay, so for the people who watch this every week, let's take off off all of our filters now.
00:46:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Just kidding.
00:46:07
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Like, this is us looking good, you guys. Anyways, before we wrap for the day, I would love to hear if there was any confessions, any realizations, any aha moments that anyone had as we walked through the first episode on DCC.
00:46:11
Manni
Oh gosh! That's great.
00:46:28
Erica Butler
I'd like to share one. um As we were talking as millennials, and thinking about these women who are these dancers in their early 20s, except for Anisha, she was 31.
00:46:29
Manni
Yay!
00:46:39
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:46:40
Erica Butler
I wish she would have made it. I would have loved to see her story.
00:46:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:46:43
Erica Butler
um But there are just some questions and things that you're doing at that age versus when you are older, and I don't mean to sound condescending at all, um but there's just, I think having lived through the times that we have, we can so clearly see, oh, this all has just shape shifted and some things have evolved, but some things have really just shifted the terminology around.
00:47:03
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Hmm.
00:47:06
Manni
Mmm.
00:47:06
Erica Butler
And I think we can always say that because we've lived through this, you know, 20 years ago. So just fascinating.
00:47:12
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:47:13
Manni
Wow.
00:47:14
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:47:15
Manni
Yeah, shape-shifted. That's incredible.
00:47:18
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:47:18
Stephanie Jay
Mm-hmm.
00:47:21
Manni
And then Yisha, I can't believe we didn't talk about her and her age.
00:47:23
Stephanie Jay
Yeah.
00:47:24
Manni
And um yeah, she was one of the ones that I was really rooting for. um And I was thinking about that. This isn't my confession though, but I was thinking about that with the 90s. you know And Steph, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I know growing up in a Jamaican household, like food was like, you know like food food literally equal fuel.
00:47:42
Manni
you know like like we I would not skip a meal.
00:47:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm-hmm.
00:47:44
Stephanie Jay
mm-hmm.
00:47:45
Manni
so So the food stuff didn't really hit me the way the 90s did. It was more the standard of beauty. And so talking about Anisha and the very few um women of color, like I was more triggered by how the 90s, mainly Erika, you worked with me when I worked at Abercrombie and Finch,
00:47:52
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:48:03
Manni
st we just talked about how that article just came out, right? Like how Hollister, Abercrombie just portrayed the standard of beauty for our eight for us millennials.
00:48:12
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:48:14
Manni
And what's that podcast that you recommended, Erica, to me, Be There in Five?
00:48:15
Stephanie Jay
Mm hmm.
00:48:18
Erica Butler
There in five.
00:48:19
Manni
she if Yeah, she does.
00:48:19
Erica Butler
Yeah. Kate Kennedy is incredible. Yeah.
00:48:22
Manni
Yeah, she does a great um dissection of the standard of beauty through Appicabi and Fitch, if you guys are listening and want to get more on that. But that that is what like really stood out to me more than like the eating stuff, because that just wasn't a part of my experience. But growing up in a predominantly white space,
00:48:40
Manni
having those images being forced in your face and not having a beautiful black woman representation or or a magnitude of beautiful black women represented in um your ah sphere of influence was something that really i that I struggled with growing up and that was a challenge for me.
00:48:45
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Mm hmm.
00:48:59
Manni
so And then my confession would be similar to our friendship episode, I have been wearing white boots this whole time.
00:49:21
Stephanie Jay
Oh my word.
00:49:22
Manni
Because I really, I'm manifesting it, but I want some Dallas cowboy white boots,
00:49:23
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh My gosh
00:49:25
Erica Butler
Let's do a jump split.
00:49:30
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Oh my gosh.
00:49:33
Manni
And also you guys, you guys met me wearing white sneakers.
00:49:33
Karen, Steph, & Manni
I don't know how I feel about that.
00:49:38
Stephanie Jay
We did. We did.
00:49:43
Karen, Steph, & Manni
oh That's a story for another day.
00:49:46
Manni
That's my confession.
00:49:48
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Amazing. Well, Steph, I'm assuming no confession from you today, everything you knew.
00:49:55
Stephanie Jay
i yeah I don't think I have a confession this time around. could um I was... I think what we talked about really hit on what I was like, aha-ing from the episode with the eating.
00:50:09
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Yeah.
00:50:09
Stephanie Jay
And then I think the confession is like what you made the parallel with the over-involvement of the mom and and well and how we see that in other arenas.
00:50:17
Manni
Hmm.
00:50:21
Manni
Yay!
00:50:21
Stephanie Jay
So I guess that would be mine.
00:50:24
Karen, Steph, & Manni
Amazing. Well, for our listeners, please stay stay tuned next week for the second episode on Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. And please follow us on all of the socials and like and subscribe where you get your podcasts. And thank you for listening to another week.
00:50:47
Manni
See you later, Karen.