Transcript
pjasper: Welcome back, maker community. Oh, boy, is today going to be a good one. ah Welcome back to your favorite show. Woodworking is bullshit.
pjasper: I'm your host, Paul Jasper, woodworker at night, scientist by day, and I'm joined by my two miraculous, astounding, fabulous co -hosts, Eric Curtis.
Mary: Oh!
pjasper: In the left corner, Eric Curtis, full -time furniture maker and content creator. And in the right corner, Mary Tsai, UX designer by day, contemporary furniture maker by night.
Mary: What is that accent?
pjasper: I have no idea.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's the transatlantic accent, baby. He's bringing it back to the 40s.
pjasper: you know I have no idea.
Mary: yeah
pjasper: Well, so, just so everyone knows, we're gonna call this...
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Paul is so uncomfortable right now. It's amazing.
Mary: He's freaking out.
pjasper: We are gonna call this the Eric Curtis episode.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You see, listen, i we've done this in the past where it's like we're trying something new and Paul's like, and just so everybody knows, this is Eric's idea.
pjasper: Oh, just so every.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: and then And then when he succeeds, he's like, that was a great idea we all had, huh? and was so I'm so glad we tried that.
pjasper: I'm already shifting the blame of a terrible episode on to Eric. So but we decided this week, instead of starting with the question, we're going to play fuck all and just start with the first segment.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: you
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: goddamn right, baby.
pjasper: And then we'll come to the question later.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We're gonna, we're gonna ride. We're gonna write. Here's the lesson. I'll let you know a little behind the scenes, friends. We were having the pre show, we were trying to figure out what the the show is going to be. And we all just were like, hey, we're not feeling very funny.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We're not feeling very light hearted right now. So we took a shot of whiskey, and we decided to reverse the order. So here's what we're gonna lead with. And this does have to do with the topic kind of adjacent.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But here's what
Mary: Also, we have no idea what Eric's about to say.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Oh yeah, they this is it this is the secret seg, baby.
pjasper: Yeah, Eric didn't tell us what the secret segment is.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: The secret seg right now is ah we're gonna put your profiles into chat GPT and have them roast you.
pjasper: Oh no!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And we're gonna see what comes out. Now, now, I've already put them in, but I've not read them.
Mary: Oh my gosh.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So this is a live read of both of yours profiles right now, okay?
Mary: Oh. oh This is like a thing, right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So, so, all right.
pjasper: Oh my god.
Mary: or Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: This is a thing that Sarah told me about and I didn't know it was a thing until she sent me just, she just like completely shat on my profile. And I was like, that's hilarious, but also like WTF. what like What's that? And she was like, no chat GPT, like roast people now. And I was like, Oh,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: you should have led with it being computer generated.
Mary: You thought she was just shitting on your all your stuff?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I was like, I was like, your comedic chops are exceptional. So with that being said, um I did ask chat GPT to roast Paul's Instagram profile.
pjasper: Yes.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And this is this is what it came up with.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Paul's Instagram profile is like walking into a shrine dedicated to the worship of wood. and not the cool, rustic kind, but the I whisper sweet nothings into mahogany every night kind. The McCallen boxes are so lovingly crafted, you'd think he's trying to impress the whiskey itself. Like, hey, I know you're aged to perfection, but have you seen my woodworking?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Take a moment, or or sorry, the moment he labeled something a huge mistake with that expression. I knew this man takes his craft more seriously than most people take their lives. It's the kind of intensity usually reserved for brain surgery or diffusing bombs, but nope, here it is in the middle of a woodworking project.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: The fancy trays and cases are so meticulously designed, it's clear that Paul is creating a life where everything has its perfect little place.
Mary: Wow.
Mary: Is this a roast?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Too bad he can't organize the chaos in his head the same way.
pjasper: Or my shop. ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Your shop is fucking wild.
Mary: That is true.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I feel like, have we talked about this on this pod?
pjasper: No.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Oh, guys, it's chat pause. Because if you ever get a chance to walk in a pull shot, first of all, the ceilings are about four and a half feet tall. Like, just everything is hitting you in the fucking head.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And he's got shit everywhere. I'm talking acres of wood in a two -car garage, plus all of his machines, plus his hand tools.
pjasper: have
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And he just he knows where everything is. I don't know how he does it. But he's like, yeah, I got this one piece of like maple burl. 2004 and it's over there in the corner behind seven other pieces of mine and I'm like what it's insane.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It's insane It is Yeah,
pjasper: Yeah, it's a problem. It's a problem.
Mary: It's only a problem if you can't find anything.
pjasper: Well, yeah, until like someone's head hits a clamp down and that hits 15 other things and that is like a chain reaction.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: yeah and then it start is it raining sharp metal yeah All right
pjasper: Yeah, and it's dented like finished pieces before.
Mary: Oh no!
pjasper: Yeah, it's been a it's been a problem.
Mary: Oh, yikes.
pjasper: Okay, anyway, back.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: to To finish...
Mary: Wait, what?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: to Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
Mary: Did you do yours? Because I feel like you are the most make fun of all out of all of us.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But but let me let... Oh, 100%, we'll get there. But to to finish Paul's out, honestly, Paul's woodworking skills are on point, but I bet he's the type to offer you a coaster before you even think of putting down your drink.
Mary: Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah So here's to Paul. May his projects forever be flawless and his need for perfection just a little less intense for everyone's sake.
pjasper: Oh, get out of here, chat GPT.
Mary: Yeah, it's so wrong.
pjasper: You fucking suck.
Mary: Like, I feel like Paul is not the perfectionist.
pjasper: That none - I'm not.
Mary: Like, yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: All right, well let's check out what I had to say about Mary.
Mary: Oh.
pjasper: Fail. Fail, chat GPT.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: All right, Mary's.
Mary: Wait, which chat, which EBT is this?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Do you fucking know who you're talking to?
Mary: Is it 3 .5?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Which chat, the kind that says chat GPT at the top fucking corner, I don't know.
Mary: I'm curious because based off of the, if it's 3 .5 or four, what the, when it was last updated, like the data is most recent.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It's seven.
pjasper: Oh. My.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah Mary's Instagram profile is like if Martha Stewart and the Pinterest board had a baby, but that baby was raised exclusively in a hipster workshop.
pjasper: God.
Mary: Oh my God.
Mary: Oh my god!
pjasper: oh
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: She's got that. I'm totally just working on a casual project vibe, but you know deep down she's probably stressing over whether her wood grain is trendy enough for the algorithm.
Mary: Oh my god!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: the The mirror selfie with the headphones is giving strong vibes of, I'm here to craft, but also I might drop an indie album energy.
Mary: That's amazing. Oh my god.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah Her workspace.
Mary: Also, that means it is GPD 4 because it's up to date.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Okay, all right. Her workspace is so organized, it's like she's preparing for a photo shoot for a lifestyle magazine that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just trying to find a screwdriver that isn't lost under a pile of existential despair.
Mary: Not wrong.
Mary: So it's like Paul versus me.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
Mary: Her workshops.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Ooh, this is a strong way to end it. And let's talk about those intricate designs because nothing says I need therapy, like spending hours perfecting a wooden maze. The only thing missing in that caption is something that says, just just making this to distract myself from the void.
Mary: What was it, a wooden maze?
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, it was the the Hobbit piece.
Mary: Oh, I see.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's strong.
pjasper: That actually was a much better roast.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's strong.
pjasper: That was much better.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's strong.
Mary: Yeah, that's pretty good.
pjasper: The headphones really got me.
Mary: I'm into it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: The headphone dropping the indie album.
Mary: a I love it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was strong. All right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Now i did I did mine first, so I have read this and it is. Very good. Uh, but it's not in the third person. So it just says this Instagram pro because I didn't know yet.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I said, can you roast this Instagram profile, not Eric's.
Mary: a
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So this Instagram profile looks like it belongs to someone who spends more time caressing wood than they do with actual humans.
Mary: Oh my god!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You can, you can, you can almost hear the wood whispering your mic.
Mary: Oh
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: only friends
Mary: my god!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: The precision in those joints is matched only by the loneliness in his eyes. Like he's car like he's carving out a space in his life where emotions used to be.
Mary: It was so good!
pjasper: but
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That heart sign is probably the closest thing to intimacy he's had since his last woodworking project.
pjasper: Ha ha ha ha ha ha
Mary: Oh my gosh!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: let's night Let's not even start with the secret compartments because nothing says I have trust issues like building furniture with hidden drawers for your feelings.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: This guy's so dedicated to his craft that the tools in his shop are probably named after the relationships he's lost along the way.
Mary: Wow, it really like stuck on to this point of you being lonely.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It really, it really did. ah The chisels and clamps know more about his deepest thoughts than any therapist ever will.
Mary: Oh my god.
pjasper: Oh, Eric, that's... it's so brutal.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's strong, that's strong, man.
Mary: Wow, I'm really surprised it didn't do like the whole, oh, this guy's such a stereotypical looking windworker.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I know it didn't touch any of that. It was just like, hey, you look dead inside.
Mary: Wow, you're so lonely.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was strong, that was strong.
pjasper: Oh, God. It was very good.
Mary: Wow.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That was good. So now that we're feeling loose and goose, ah creativity, competition, how we feeling? We feeling funnier now?
pjasper: Well, now that the the whiskey's kicking in.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It's a good reverse egg.
pjasper: yeah Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: God damn right it is.
Mary: Oh my god.
pjasper: I'm still hung up on Mary with her indie headphones. Ain't she might drop an indie album?
Mary: I don't even, I'm trying to think of what indeed happens. Oh, it was your protection.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was strong, man. It was strong.
pjasper: All right.
Mary: Oh man.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: All right. All right. All right. Now, now we get into the real seg. All right. Now we, now we do, we put Paul at ease knowing that we got a laugh out of that one and we can dive into more academic questions of which he's still uncomfortable because we don't have an outline.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We just have questions.
pjasper: Wait, we're going to wing it today, baby.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We're going to wing it, baby.
Mary: This is the true Eric Curtis spirit.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Honestly, you should use a, you show up knowing your shit and then you just figure out how to get the fuck through the shit during the conversation.
pjasper: This this is, yes.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's where the best things happen in life.
Mary: Interesting.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Hear me now, that's how I won an Emmy. So ah the we're gonna start with a couple of quotes from our listeners. We asked them about ah competition as a creative force. Is competition good for creativity? Does it help creativity? Does it help drive you to be a more creative person? So these are just some of the quotes and and we'll go just yes or no, agree, disagree right off the jump.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: from ah Wood to Wells. He says, competition is destructive, creativity is productive, they are not congruent. Agree or disagree?
pjasper: disagree. It's too radical.
Mary: Yeah, I would say that's very black and white.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I would agree with both of you. I think that that is too radical is a good way to put it. ah My buddy Eric at Eli Woodworks said, pressure makes me rise to the occasion.
Mary: I would agree.
pjasper: Agree, but what happens when the pressure is gone?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Mmm.
pjasper: Then what are you going to do?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's a good one. That's a good one. I think, uh, at it at face value. Yeah, I would agree with it. Um, old mountain woodworking said, I wake up in piss excellence competition drives me, but I don't require it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Agree or disagree.
Mary: But that's incredible.
Mary: um I wouldn't say that I pissed excellence, but I agree with the second part.
pjasper: mary Mary pisses excellence.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Absolutely.
pjasper: She does.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Literally in everything she does.
pjasper: Yeah. Yeah. She shits it too, just for the record.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
pjasper: I would agree. I like that. It's like I use it as a tool, but it's not required. I like that view.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Hmm. Yeah. Agreed as well. Using it as a tool, knowing it has its place is good. Uh, B coffee 66 says, I think competition is good for developing skills, but creative collaboration more so for artists.
pjasper: Ooh, I like this because they're separating the idea of measurable skills versus art and collaboration, which is I think something we'll get into. So I like that separation of the two, that it's useful for one and maybe not the other.
Mary: Yeah, I think I would agree. It's so like, it really depends. But yeah, I think for on the most part, I might agree.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think we're all nuanced enough that we know. like We can just assume you know it all depends. like It's all situational. um
Mary: Yeah, like we said, it's like, black and white doesn't make sense. There's always some sort of in between
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, right. And so, consequently, I think I'm going to disagree with this one. I think competition is, in fact, good for skills. But healthy competition between friends can also make for really interesting um collaborations and just fun exercises.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, and Paul, I saw that face. This is an audio format though. So if you disagree with me, you're going to have to tell me audibly, uh,
pjasper: Sorry. Sorry.
Mary: Paul disagreed with you about everything about this episode.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: he's coming to not, uh, Rob Spradlin says, yes, no, it's complicated.
pjasper: Yeah. if Yeah.
Mary: that Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a blanket. Yes. That's a good way to end that. So that being said, um, I'm sure you can kind of get a sense by now.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Our question is, does being competitive make you a better maker and or artist? And this is, this is a tricky thing because, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think of the three of us, am I the only one that played sports growing up?
Mary: Uh, no, excuse me. I played many sports.
pjasper: I mean, I did a little more than, yeah, you did more than me for sure.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: What did you play?
Mary: Uh, I played tennis my whole life and then I'll say softball and okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: All right. I said sports, but that's fine. Um, so, all right. I apologize, Mary. Um, I however, I think like when you grow up playing sports, I think that there is.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It's easier to see the inherent value in competition as a creative exercise. I don't think that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum or maybe they are, maybe they're, they're opposite sides of the same coin. I'm not entirely sure. I'm still trying to work through this as part of the interesting part of this conversation, but I always think about football because it's my favorite sport always has been my entire life and.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Football is based around the idea of competition, right? You play to win the game as the great Hermet words once said, but a good coach, their job is to assess what's happening in a game, in a league, in a time period in which they're coaching and create new offensive schemes or defensive schemes to, uh, put their team in a position to win.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And the bad coach doesn't create new schemes, but tries to bolster their roster with the best available players and just tries to win through brute force. So I think that's one example of creativity and competition coexisting quite peacefully.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think, well,
pjasper: You mean the the desire to win led to new scheme development?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think the desire to win, I think creative thinking
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: is favored in a situation like that. People who can think creatively can scheme new ways to win, right?
pjasper: Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So, so the desire to win leads to creative thinking because it's, it's necessary.
pjasper: and Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But also I think that there is, um, and we talked on a little bit in the pre -show about this, but I had this, I have a sneaking suspicion that Paul has some research on this because I believe there is some research about this, but I think creativity and competition are.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: inherently linked from the time of childhood. If you put a group of five -year -olds on a playground without any distractions of of phones or shiny things, and you tell them go play, like we all experienced this as children. You go out there and what are these five -year -olds do? They create a game.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: They invent a game. they They go through the creative process of developing rules and regulations about what you can and cannot do. And the overwhelming majority of that time, not always, but most of the time, the game that's created is a competitive game of some kind.
pjasper: Hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: right There is, it's it's tag, it's hide and see, it's whatever it is.
pjasper: Hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: there's And it goes through iterations and they are creating through competition and they're refining through competition.
pjasper: Hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And I don't know, I'll be honest with you, I don't know how that links directly to woodworking and the arts. But it feels like there's something innate in the competitive creative balance. Like I said, maybe they're two sides of the same coin. And went like, if you if you choose to see them as opposites versus a scale.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I don't know. I don't know how those things link, but I i don't think they're there. I don't think they're different. I think they're they exist somewhere together.
Mary: Yeah, I mean, there's something to be said about the gamification of ah competition, I guess, so whether it's like a personal endeavor of, you know, you creating your own game of, can I do this better than either my past self or someone else? That is definitely a valid thing. Would you say that, like,
Mary: Your competitive side comes from sports in your childhood because I can pinpoint exactly where my competitiveness comes from.
pjasper: Where did it come from, Mary?
Mary: ah from having an older brother and constantly being compared constantly from teachers from parents from everything and he's six years older so he beat me every time so of course i am always going to be like oh i have to do better even though he beat me every time like that's just me being like all right well maybe next time i can beat him and eventually i could beat him in mario kart at one point so
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Mmm.
pjasper: Ah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Mm -hmm.
pjasper: Hmm.
pjasper: Hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, I, it's funny that you say that because as soon as you ask that question, um, my initial instinct was no, it was, it came because I had siblings and we were all, and we were closer in age, right?
Mary: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: My sister's two years older, my brother is 16 months younger and we had a, an older half brother that's seven years older than her than me. Um, but we, it was just everything in our childhood was a competition.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Right.
Mary: yeah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And I think that is probably what
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think that's the positive and the negative of it, because I learned early on that like it's a fun communal aspect.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: To compete is to have a thing to do with your friends and these people that you love and care about.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But also, you know there's the for for lack of a less dramatic word to use, so the trauma of being a younger sibling, and right like there is that component of it.
Mary: yeahp
pjasper: Well, speaking of it being a double -edged sword, which is kind of what you said, Eric. the So speaking to the research, which is where I always like to start thinking about a topic. I always like to see what's known first from a research perspective. And then I like to swirl in our own experiences from life, because I feel like the research anchors it. It puts a framework down to really deconvolute our own personal experiences, which are swirled with emotion and stuff.
pjasper: so Everyone, I think, in the psychology literature, everyone admits that there's positives associated with being competitive. And those positives are, it's a powerful extrinsic motivator that helps us, that helps push us. We compare ourselves to others. Boy, that look at those joints. They're so tight. They're so perfect. I want mine to look like that, right? Like that pushes you to cut better joints.
pjasper: or they make something and they do it in half the time or a tenth of the time and you're like, God damn, why did it take me so long? So like obviously being competitive can push you to be better at something, but it can also, here's the cons now, the cons, it can lead to exhaustion and burnout.
pjasper: right Constantly comparing yourself to others is exhausting. So psychologist Alice Shugler suggests that competition makes people constantly compare themselves and look to others for approval. This constant comparison in search for validation is unhealthy and can lead to negative self -image and even worsened self -esteem if you think about it to and a large degree.
pjasper: And according to Sander van Linden, another PhD in the psychology literature, when competition is the main source of people's motivation, they're no longer motivated after the competition is over, right?
pjasper: Because that it's that external push that became the the tsunami of energy. And then when that was over, where are you? What do you have?
Mary: They piss excellence, in other words.
pjasper: So I mean, they pissed excellence, right? At least they piss excellence while they're in the competition. um So, you know, it's a double -edged sword. It can be used for good and and I think it can be used for bad. as And by the way, it's been hyper competitiveness has been tied to low self -esteem and perfectionism, right? Because if you're so driven to win, you use perfectionism as a safeguard to avoid losing, right? It has to be perfect.
pjasper: Right. ah So, you know, these these are all ties to some pretty negative or things that can be negative, they go too far. But so that that's more or less what the research suggests. Now, I want to point something out, though, that wasn't that I sort of knew in the back of my head, and I didn't read it today, but I want to bring it up.
pjasper: Eric, you talked about sports, right? And you talked about competition and fueling creativity. yeah I don't know about the the whole creative link yet. I haven't figured that out. But what I do know is that I feel like competition involves something measurable. So points in a game, your time in a race, the height that you can jump. like the In order to be competitive, something has to um there has to be a measurable metric.
pjasper: And in woodworking, if you say, I'm being competitive about like, I cut better, you know, those dovetails are better, you're looking at the size of the gaps. right? It's something measurable. Whereas how do you compare someone's painting to another person's painting and say, damn, that's better because there isn't a a clear measurable with art. So at least when you're saying I'm competitive about this or that, it has to be associated with something measurable. And I do believe that's the case from what I from what I can think of in my own head.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think that's a really interesting distinction to be made. And that's fair. This is why the conversation are like, who's the greatest of all time? Like nobody, that conversation is endless because it changes all the time because there's no measurable distinction, right? You can say who scored the most points in NBA history. That's a measurable distinction. Who's the greatest? Who knows? Um,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But this is where the conversation about social media becomes interesting then, because that then creates that creates a false measurable for creativity in some ways, right?
pjasper: That's immeasurable.
Mary: ah hate it
pjasper: it's It's immeasurable.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Now, it's right.
pjasper: It's number number of followers.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: but Yeah, how many people, how many people do you, how many followers do you have?
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: How many views do you get?
pjasper: ye Yep.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: How many dollars are you making off it?
pjasper: Yep.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah So that influences that conversation and to that point um our Our friend Lewis a patron of ours asked the question at Black Apron Woodworking asked the question Do you think the saturation of online content can impose this feeling of being competitive on us?
Mary: Ugh,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Which like that's what that is, right?
Mary: I hate it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Like how How do you take a thing that is immeasurable and and give it measurable statistics metrics.
pjasper: ah Metrics, yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: There it is.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We got there as a team.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: it is it's it's I think it does create this really false thing because you see people and like, listen, I think we all do this to some extent, maybe less as we get older um or less as you become more successful on platforms. But certainly early on when I was,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: you know, in like trying to figure out Instagram, and I would see things go viral, and be like, Why the hell is this video going viral? Like this work is shit. What like my work is way better.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And I had to figure out number one, that their videos were better than mine, right? But that's a craft. That's not a that's not an artistic measure right there. But also, it's just look at the draw sometimes, you know, you're in the right position at the right time, and a thing happens to go viral.
pjasper: Mm hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But then what ends up happening is you feel like that's a reflection on your creative capacity.
pjasper: Mm hmm.
Mary: Yeah, when you say for social media, man, it's hard though, because there's there's two kinds of mediums. There's like the actual art piece that you're creating, at least in our world of like the medium, but then there's also the video editing side or like the virality side or trendiness of your post, etc. Like there, there are two different kinds of metrics. Like, I don't know i don know how to explain it. But Social media, in my perspective, is not at all how I measure my self -worth, I guess. um And it's not something that I focus on a lot either. So from like yeah for for me,
Mary: social media does not really come too much into play.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: All right, Mary, I'm going to, I'm going to push back against you real quick.
Mary: But yeah, I know you're going to.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah You know me well enough. Uh, you know, you know, I love you. You know, I respect you. Um, I am going to posit that you don't utilize social media because you're not sure that you can be the best at it and the competitive drive within you won't allow you to be second to somebody else.
Mary: ah
pjasper: So then I don't try all
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Mm -hmm. It's quitting before you start.
Mary: some yeah There's some validity in that for sure. ah I will say that's not the only reason. The other reason is I don't have time.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah Sure. Sure. Sure.
Mary: But yeah, if I wanted to become a content creator, then I would focus all of my energy into that. Then I would you know switch gears and start putting in a lot more effort for sure.
Mary: um But I think that because I know where my current state is, and yeah, I don't know, there is definitely some truth in that. It's just it's just not a viable option for me right now.
pjasper: wait
pjasper: All right, so Eric, now that we're done roasting Mary for a minute. um
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It wasn't roasting. It was just, it it was, you know, it was an honest point.
pjasper: and And look, and Mary fucking said it was true.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: She owned up to it.
pjasper: Like she, yeah, she had the guts.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: She owned up to it.
Mary: I mean, yeah, i'm I'm aware. I'm aware of myself.
pjasper: All right, just a quick question. Yes, ah yes or no, or what degree? Like on a one to 10. 10 being the most, one being the least. Are you competitive?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: aho I would say probably like an eight.
pjasper: Okay? And are you quietly competitive or overtly competitive where people can see it? Do you keep it under wraps or do you let?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Oh, i'm I'm pretty overtly competitive. I let people know that I want to win. But but to and to your point earlier about it being a tool for motivation, what i I did not have this as a younger person, but I have developed the ability to let it go once the competition is done.
pjasper: Mm -hmm.
pjasper: Mm -hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And what I think that does for me is it allows me to fully buy into the competition when it's happening. And then win or lose, it doesn't matter after the fact. That's not the point. The point is the enjoyment of the competition.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It's the the game, right? So if we're playing darts in the shop, like, I am there to beat you. Like, that's my aim. I don't give a fuck what else is going on. But the moment somebody wins, whether I win or somebody else, ah it doesn't matter anymore.
pjasper: and okay
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Like, it's this.
pjasper: but
Mary: I don't know, competitive what?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, it's it's the thrill. It's the thrill of being in that moment with the somebody that you enjoy being around.
pjasper: Okay, but Eric, that doesn't sound like an eight. That sounds like a six or something.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, I would say it's innate because, like, depending on the thing, like, I really care if I win. And, and if I'm, if I'm completely transparent, depending on who I'm playing against, you know, like if it's, if it's like, if it's one of you guys, I love you both.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: Oh, snap.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Like I don't care when or lose. If it's somebody I don't like, I'm like, ah, I'm going to beat this asshole.
Mary: Hahahahaha!
pjasper: ha All right Mary, are you competitive?
Mary: So it depends on what we're talking about. And I know that you Eric, no, I know Eric can push back on this.
pjasper: Do I have to define it?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Can you define competition?
Mary: But in general, yes, I am competitive, I would put myself at like a seven, eight, e etc. However, in the field that we're talking about, I have so long studied like design and art.
Mary: And like, the whole point of it is that it's subjective that I am just not competitive in the field of design, because I think that comparing yourself is not useful or healthy.
Mary: um And I've seen it for so long now that, yeah, for me, I would say I'm not competitive in that field. If it was social media, that's a whole that's a different thing in terms of like numbers and statistics, etc.
Mary: But when I think about myself as like an art certain designer, I do this for myself. And I would I don't think I'm competitive.
pjasper: All right, and are you overtly competitive or like kinda under the wraps?
Mary: You guys can answer this for me.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: how do you how do you How do you feel about Mario Kart?
pjasper: Under wraps!
Mary: For the listeners, whenever we play Mario Kart, whenever I get silent, they know that that I am in first place then.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: i i have I have never left Mary's house when she is in a great mood.
pjasper: Yup.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Let's put it that way.
Mary: How about you, Paul?
pjasper: All right, all right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Paul, are you competitive?
pjasper: ah Yeah, I, I used to be more competitive when I was younger. Actually, it's a developmental thing. As I've gotten older, I've gotten less competitive.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
pjasper: I just don't I just don't feel the need.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
pjasper: ah Like I don't care if someone has more money. I don't care if someone beats me or whatever. I just don't care. Life is too short to care about what other people are doing. That's kind of where I'm at these days.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, you have more life experience than than you know you used to, right?
pjasper: So
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: As happens with time.
pjasper: Yeah, I used to be very competitive, yeah, for sure, but not so much anymore.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, so I wonder to Mary's point earlier about like, you know, does it but' know when you're I don't know. I lost my train of thought there.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I told you before the episode started, I'm not feeling super articulate tonight.
pjasper: Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And then you guys were like, let's lead this discussion.
pjasper: Mary, Mary, was this the wrong night to do the Eric episode?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Let's let's ride.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I told you that before we started recording.
Mary: It's okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah It's fine.
pjasper: Okay, Eric, Eric, I have I have a question. So for for me, and I think as I think about, well, actually, sorry, before that, now that we gave all our answers, I thought it'd be nice to at to take a moment to have the listeners ask themselves that question.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: OK.
pjasper: I like when podcasts kind of pause and force me to think. So I'm going to ask the question as a listener. Are you competitive?
pjasper: Do you feel as though you're competitive? And when you're competitive, is it overt, like written all over, or are you the silent sniper, merry type of competitive?
Mary: a
pjasper: All right, so just pause the podcast or just take a moment to think about that, because I think as you reflect upon your own answer, our discussion resonates differently.
Mary: Yeah, and does it affect your work and how you work, how you process things and make things? um Because like I said, I can be competitive in like general life, but when I look at it through a certain lens, then it kind of falls away a little bit.
pjasper: All right, I'm gonna i'm going to throw something out and I want you two to react. I think the being competitive is actually a development ah developmental process in woodworking or art or whatever, okay? I'm gonna throw this out here. So when we first start working in in a craft, right? I think that instinct is definitely to be competitive because you're looking around, you're not sure what the landscape is, you're not sure where you fit in,
pjasper: And you're looking at everyone trying to get a pecking order, like who's really good? Who's not? where Where do I fit in? And you're doing sort of fundamental tasks. I'm making boards straight. I'm making boards square. I'm making joints where that have gaps or do not have gaps. ah Those are measurable. How long did that take him or her? How long did that take me?
pjasper: Look at their dovetails. They're so fucking tight. Why are mine gappy and a mess, right? So the when you first start out, and I'm gonna have both of you react to this in a second. When you first start out, I think you're inherently competitive. It's just getting your footing, figuring out who you are, where you are. But as time goes on,
pjasper: as you develop your own creative voice and you figure out, this is who I am, you stop looking around for that external validation. Because when you're new to something, you want people to tell you you're good at it. right But after 10, 20 years,
pjasper: you know who you are you know whether you're good or not you know what your strengths and weaknesses are and in fact you've moved on from worrying about so much about the execution and how tight your joints are and you're thinking about larger more vague notional issues like How's the design? Did this move someone emotionally? And those have no comparators, really. That's much less competitive landscape. So I'd argue the competitiveness of an artist is actually part of their developmental cycle. Okay, you can both react.
Mary: Yeah, I would agree. I think that when you're first starting out, it's good to have goals. And I think that when you see people who are better than you, those are goals that you can strive towards to match them or to be better, etc. Like, I think that is a good part in terms of comparison, but where it falls away is one, comparing yourself to someone who has X many more years of experience than you, but two, also letting that diminish your self -worth. And it has to do with um so like your own confidence, too. Of course, when you're a beginner, you wish you could have the confidence of an expert, but you're not going to have that. So if you you know develop your skills ah and gain that experience, then your confidence starts to grow. And I think that you start to realize that the
Mary: like the comparison between people and you grow your own voice, you know, or develop your own voice, that starts to fall away a bit more because you realize it's not as important to you and your self -worth as an artist.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, so this in fairness, just to clarify, this is the point I wanted to make earlier and then forgot what I was going to say.
Mary: How many drinks have you had, Eric?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So thanks, buddy. Just one and a half. I told you before we started. It's not my finest evening. ah No, the the point was exactly that.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was early on. um and And again, I'll just take athletes as an example. You inevitably compare yourself to more accomplished athletes in your sport because you have no body of work to compare for yourself.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And so for the woodworker, yeah, when you start cutting dovetails, the first thing you do is look at the best dovetails that have ever been cut.
pjasper: Right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And you go, why don't mine look like that? And that's a helpful metric to gauge how far you need to go. What you don't do is look at other people's dov,
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: tales who aren't you know very good, who haven't been cutting them very long, and to compare and contrast where you are in comparison with them.
pjasper: Alright.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That's not a thing that really happens. And I think the the the key thing that happens over time is you develop that body of work to allow you to start to compare.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: you You move away from comparing yourself to others, and you start to compare yourself to your own work and to your own experiences. And I think that that can be really beneficial, whether it's in a measurable thing like say dovetails or sports metrics, whatever that is, or in a creative thing, because at the beginning, like nobody Generally speaking, the general linear path in woodworking specifically is you learn the craft and then you learn to design and then things flow from there. So when you're learning the craft, you are focused on the measurables. Then when you master the craft and you start to figure out the design aspect, and I know like Mary took a different path, but I'm talking about the more like hobbyist woodworkery path.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, when you start to learn the design component, everything gets thrown out because there are no measurables. It's just like, and dislike how much of the things sell for, you know, is, is really the only like metric that you have. So I think then you kind of restart at ground zero because it's a new skill, new craft that you're learning on how to design beautiful objects. But developing that body of work in there as well also allows you to compare yourself to your prior self, to your past self and figuring out if you're growing in a direction or moving in a direction that's interesting and engaging to you.
pjasper: I love the point about comparing, as you progress, instead of comparing yourself extrinsically to others, you compare yourself intrinsically to your former self. Because I find that's an endless source of of of motivation and inspiration.
pjasper: Because you can see you're getting better. And every project you're like, I'm going to outdo that previous, you know, like you just want to outdo yourself.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: but but is
pjasper: and it
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Is that not competition though?
pjasper: It is, it is, but it's it's it's intrinsic competition as opposed to extrinsic.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Sure.
pjasper: So if it's extrinsic, when the game's over, it it falls away. But the beauty of intrinsic competition is it's there forever if you have the drive within yourself.
pjasper: And and you can tune it, right? you It's on your time scale, it's on your terms, intrinsic competition, right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. Well, so that brings up the comment from our friend Nikita, who, by the way, I had the pleasure of hanging out with for the evening, getting some beers with in Edinburgh, a delightful human being. Uh, but he hit us with, I think competition cheapens art. If your aim is to create the best art, then you're automatically switching, switching to an external locus of evaluation. And in my opinion, art should be about expressing yourself, not about mirroring what other people like. Fair point.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think the only competition in art that is valuable is competition with yourself, not in the sense of continually gaining more sales or popularity, but with each piece having more courage to express yourself.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: fully through that piece, which I think was you know not not to shame anybody else, but that was the most well articulated complete thought that I think I got when I put that question out.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: um you I hate both of you.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Putting giant wangs in the in the conversation in the group chat.
pjasper: we We did no such thing.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah Nikita, they're not calling you a wang, by the way. I just want to be clear about that.
Mary: This happens every episode, just to be clear. We constantly try to distract.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: usually at the moments where we're trying to articulate the most comprehensive thought of the episode too.
pjasper: All right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Go ahead.
pjasper: I have another question for y 'all. Okay. So as we were talking about like developing right from early extrinsic competition towards intrinsic and you finding, you know, competing against yourself eventually, as you pursue more design and art.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Sure.
pjasper: However, there's still the issue of what's the sale price, a metric and how, how many of your pieces sell and how many pieces do you make per year?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: share
pjasper: So even though you may not be competitive creatively anymore, and you're just like, oh, I'm competitive with myself. Are you comparing your price points to others? And are you comparing how well you sell?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, if you're a business person, you absolutely are comparing your price points to other people because how else are you going to understand what the market wants and is willing to pay.
pjasper: Hmm.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But also salesmanship is a craft that one could argue is measurable by price point.
pjasper: Hmm.
Mary: Yeah, social media comes in there too.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I, so sure. And let listen, I know, I know a guy, he was, I don't know if I've mentioned him on this podcast, but I've certainly mentioned him in the past. Uh, his name is Rob hair. He was one of my mentors early on, uh, in New York.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And he's, he's a fantastic human. He's a really good sculptor. He's a very good furniture maker. And he would sell tables in the the six figures. And for it, like, listen, no shame to Rob. I especially at whatever I was 24, 25, didn't understand how he was pulling those kinds of numbers. And then he asked me to come do the the Philly furniture show with him a couple of years and watching him sell was a masterclass.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: in and of itself, like it was, it was incredible.
pjasper: Wow.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Like just the way he put people at ease in conversation.
pjasper: Tell us, tell us.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: It was, it never, it was never about the furniture. It was never about the object. It was always about the person, what they're looking for, what their space is, why he's making this object.
pjasper: Oh.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And it's a one of a kind object. There's not going to be anything like that, you know, about, and then 90 minutes later. It's a person that's going, oh, okay. I understand why that table is $125 ,000.
pjasper: Oh my god.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And it was masterful every time because it's effortless. And you never felt like he was trying to sell you a thing because I don't think he was. He was just genuinely talking to a person about his design decisions.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And then consequently, he's like, I've been doing this for 50 years. Like these, these are all of the things that led to this. And meanwhile, I'm trying to sell a piece that took me three fucking months to make for $4 ,000, you know?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And so it. But that's also like the skill of selling I think could be measured by the sale point.
pjasper: Do you find yourself comparing?
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: Do you compare yourself to that memory of how good he was at that?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: No, that's like, Rob is my Everest as far as salesmanship goes a hundred percent.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But that's, that's where I think that healthy competition comes from like, or can exist because I, that's not driving me out of jealousy. Like I'm not mad that Rob sold that piece for as much as he sold it for.
pjasper: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I'm in awe of it. And like that, I think it's like, like when either of you make a piece, right? Like Paul, you make a box that I'm like, I wish I had made that, right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Like it's so good or like Mary with the Hobbit piece. I'm like, I don't know that I'm ever going to find a piece that works as well to express like the love of Tolkienism, not tokenism.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I want to be very clear about how I enunciate that, but Tolkienism.
pjasper: Ah -ha -ha -ha!
Mary: I'm gonna sound clip that.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah but But it is like, it's the admiration and then the the the competitive side of me I allow it to take root a little bit and say like, well, I want to try that. I want to see if I can do better. But also acknowledging that it's, it's born out of a place of admiration, not out of a place of jealousy.
pjasper: So it sounds like you have a healthy relationship with competition.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, I think so. But I like that takes a lot of years to develop and that takes a body of work to also understand that if I attempt the thing, if I try to make a box better than Paul, or a Hobbit piece better than Mary and I fail, that doesn't mean that I'm a failure.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And separating the value of your work from the value of yourself as a human being is another critical skill that I had to learn over time.
Mary: Yeah, that's all that's a whole other topic, potentially.
pjasper: Mary,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, that's the whole podcast right there.
pjasper: Mary, Mary, would you say you have a healthy relationship with competition?
Mary: I think so. I mean, what I mentioned before, took a lot of time and, like, naturally, like, I guess, instinctually, my first gut reaction is to be competitive. However, just, like we said, having been in the field of design and art for so long now, like, it just it doesn't gain you anything to be competitive.
Mary: And I've been in that scenario where I've compared myself been like, Oh, well, that sucks. Like I'm piece of shit. It's like, well, that didn't do anything for me. And it just makes me feel worse. So it's you have to kind of twist that narrative in your mind into that's my next new goal, or, you know, change it into something positive.
pjasper: Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mary: So yeah, I mean, Yeah, I think it just, it we've mentioned many times, but with time and expertise, it fades away.
pjasper: All right, related question. Does being too competitive or can being overly competitive affect your ability to make and retain friends?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, nobody likes a dick.
Mary: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: i ah That's all there is to it, right?
pjasper: ah
Mary: I mean, we can even point out in the woodworking world world, like in our community, people like we're not going to say say names, but like people who are just like, yeah, no one wants to hang around them because they're like, just it's just too much.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. Everything is a dick slinging contest. It's like, you know oh, did you see that you know this video went went viral? or
Mary: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: you know so
pjasper: That's again metrics, measurables.
Mary: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. Well, of course. Cause like at that point, I mean, I guess the other side of it is, you know, did you see the awards that, but they're all measurable, right? Did you see the awards I won for a piece? Did you see how much a piece sold for? Like there's no. Nobody, at least in our community and kind of the maker woodworker community is out there, um, really holding up individual pieces and, and comparing them to other people. I don't think.
Mary: Yeah, but how many times have you mentioned you're Emmy?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Uh, once this episode, because you guys both, you guys both questioned my ability to free ball it out here.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Okay.
pjasper: Yeah, how are we doing on the Eric episode? Are we doing all right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Uh, Hey, Hey, speaking of competition in the middle of this episode, I was like, this is not our best episode.
pjasper: ah That's earned to internal, Eric. That's internal competition.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: That is that's exactly.
pjasper: but but But I can look at the retention and the number of listens later to get some metrics.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: i'm gonna I'm gonna boost this one so hard on social to try to get the metrics up higher than they've ever been.
pjasper: Yeah, because it was your fucking idea to fucking freeball it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: See, remember what I said about, ah you know, accepting failure when it doesn't go the right way? Like this is a perfect example.
pjasper: Yeah. Well, you see, I'm trying to help.
Mary: We're A -B testing.
pjasper: I'm trying to help you on the end here by putting some fucking structure on your hot mess.
Mary: Oh my god!
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah sir this is This is Paul's competitive side coming out, knowing that he's the better host.
pjasper: You're welcome.
Mary: Oh my God.
pjasper: uh uh i so i've i've had a few i've had a few moments when i was speaking of the the whole friend question i just asked i've had a few moments when i was feeling particularly competitive towards someone and we were friends and they're talking and i'm having a hard time really feeling the joy and appreciation for them and listening to their story like the competition was making me feel so fucking uneasy in that moment that i I was like smiling but I couldn't really feel it deeply like I was like it just makes me feel uncomfortable and that was a long time ago but I remember that my competition feelings of trying to like best that person at whatever it was I don't remember
Mary: Hmm.
Mary: Hmm.
pjasper: Really fucked with the the personal dynamic of like loving that person and like meeting them where they are and and if they if they
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Mmm.
Mary: Prevent you from feeling happy for them?
pjasper: Yeah, it like messed me up a little bit.
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: And I realized that it was my own feelings of either envy or competitiveness that were underlying that tension in my chest. Now, I don't feel that anymore.
pjasper: Like I that that feeling has left, you know, five to 10 years ago. And I never feel that way. It could be a friend of mine from college who's making millions and millions of dollars and they're so rich and I'm honestly, I'm so happy for them.
pjasper: There is not a shred of envy because life now is so much more than money, right? Time is the ultimate commodity. So I don't have any of that anymore, but I do remember it impacting friendships, you know, back when I used to feel probably a little too hyper competitive.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I can't think of a recent time where it's impacted a friendship, but I can think of a recent time where, um, I, I, I don't think it comes out often anymore, but there are definitely times where like that, that competitive rage, uh, you know, lingers a little bit. So the, I'm thinking there was, I applied for a gallery show.
Mary: Oh, I know the story.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: um at ah at a gallery that will re remain remain nameless, but it it rhymes with Blart and And i listen, i've I've made my bones very clear about this to everybody involved.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: over there. But the, the, the show was fine.
Mary: Oh my god.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I think overall, the show was pretty good. I applied I put two pieces in neither of them got in and listen, I've I've gotten rejected from many a gallery. That wasn't my issue.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: My issue was there were a few good pieces. There were a lot of very mediocre pieces. And there was one piece that was an absolute atrocity, in my opinion, it was at like, it was garbage and it got first place.
Mary: Don't win that one.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And I was, like I'm still, to be frank, I'm still a little pissed about it, because, well, well, it's a thing like, and so this is the, I guess part of my question is like,
Mary: Externally competitive.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Is it an ego thing, which of course part of it is? Is it a competition thing, like I wanted first place and then somebody I think didn't deserve first place, got first place, that's fine. But there were people who were better than me, they got second and third place. um But also how much of that is just like, I really disagree with the premise on which they judged these pieces. And I think they made a real fatal error Or is that just justifying ah competitive nature and ego?
Mary: But again, this is like the whole comparison within design and art. It's subjective. If there was a quanti - what's the right word?
pjasper: Quantifiable. Yeah.
Mary: Quantifiable, like metric, then yeah, that, you know, it may be that would make more sense, but it's just the judges had a different opinion.
pjasper: Yeah.
Mary: And sometimes that's like the hard lesson that everyone has such a hard time understanding within this world is like, your opinion is totally different from someone else's and you may disagree completely, but you know, what is there to say?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, in the interesting conversations that I had with Larissa after that, you know, full disclosure to folks who don't know, Larissa works over at the Blart and Cheshrick Museum ah from time to time.
pjasper: a
Mary: Was she a judge?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: and And she was not a judge.
Mary: Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: um But the person who curated the show um is somebody that I know, as was one of the other judges. And the lengthy conversations that we had was their criteria for what pieces got in this show.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: was not about craft it was it was about storytelling and i chose to be um a little bit coy more than i usually am about the stories of those pieces and and i think that's why they didn't get in and again that's fine like i i'm i'm okay with that because the criteria is different than what it would have been in say a woodworking gallery or a furniture gallery
pjasper: So Eric, you just brought up a very good point, which is it wasn't about the craft, it was about the storytelling, right? And this brings up the an issue that I think so many people have with social media. So you see all these people who have huge follower accounts and their woodworking sucks. It's so fucking amateur or basic, right? And these I know many of these woodworkers who are like period furniture, that they're like ultra you know advanced, to honestly, they're advanced level, but they suck at social media.
pjasper: And so it's not the numbers and the social media account and the ability to get sponsorships and free tools. It's not necessarily about what you're making. It's about how good you sell yourself, tell your story and how good you understand what social media wants. So it's really like.
pjasper: You know you're missing the point honestly right you missed the point in the gallery show by not telling the story and i think so many people get agitated about social media because the people who are not that good at much higher follower counts they're missing the point.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Right.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, yeah. i like to To draw another parallel to this example and to Rob from before, there's a guy named Brad Smith who runs a furniture business down here. He's out in Quakertown, I believe. Really, really nice guy. He's been doing the the furniture circuit for decades.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, I almost worked with him for a short time. He makes barn style furniture, like kind of reclaimed style stuff, a lot of, uh, whitewashed and in sanded back kind of before that was a thing in 2015 or whatever it was. Um, and you look at his work now, he runs a very successful business guy, like four employees has been feeding his family, doing this for like 40 years. You look at his work and you're like, all right, my guy, I get.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You know, like it's got a very particular risk that it was shabby chic before shabby chic was a thing.
pjasper: Okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And if you didn't, if you didn't have a conversation with him or you didn't get to know him, you'd be like, this is just a dude who learned how to put farm things together and it happened to work. So he kept reproducing it. Uh, Brad has a degree from RISD, I believe, uh, and like some kind of super high, smart people engineering.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, like he's, he's a.
Mary: Yeah, that's what that's what it says on the shit of a kid.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, I believe that's exactly what it says on his PhD. He like he's a brilliant human being and it was a very intentional choice for him to identify what the market wanted and build a business around what the market wanted. And that's the same exact like we look at that and we say like, Okay, well, that's business. The exact same thing is happening on social media. People are recognizing I might have the ability to make high -end furniture, but nobody wants high -end furniture.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: People want videos on how to put up floating shelves in their house.
Mary: Yeah, that's why DIY stuff is so successful.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So they're making, right. Well, that's that's the business decision they're making is like, I don't need to go further down the the funnel because there is no sale further down the funnel.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Whereas people who spend their whole life focused on a craft and like, listen, I, before I got into social media, I was very much in this mindset. So I'm not, I'm not faulting them for it, but it is this mindset of I have spent 20, 30, 50 years honing my craft.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: So I am a legitimate master of this craft. And there are these people who have been doing it for three or four years who are making five times as much money as I am.
pjasper: Call themselves a master. Hmm. And they called it.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And that can be, Well, they call themselves a master because they don't they don't know any better.
pjasper: Sorry. Yeah. And that, that really irritates a lot of people, you know, the, the, the, yeah, it's this, this self -proclaimed master woodworker who's only two years experienced.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Sure. Sure.
pjasper: Oh boy.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Sure.
pjasper: Does that get into the, that that gets people's panties in a twist.
Mary: And also like proclaiming that they're the ones teaching those skills.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
pjasper: oh It hurts me it hurt it. I will admit it hurts me to see these beginners who have massive accounts Teaching but but but but there's not enough teachers So if they have if they have something to offer someone I'm gonna shut my trap and let them get more and people interested in the field.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: There's not enough teachers.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, and there's also, so ah to, to bring up another person, there's, I believe the handle is DIY Montreal. I want to say her handle is, is this lady from Canada who's doing very basic woodworking.
pjasper: I
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, and she's very dry. I don't mean to pick on her. I just like, I'm trying to state facts about her, her YouTube videos. She's got a massive following. Um, you know, 300, maybe 300 plus.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Um, and 500 plus it's impressive.
Mary: 500. Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: She's very dry. I don't find her videos engaging at all. That's not a knock. I think she's just out there presenting the most basic information in the most straightforward possible manner. But so many people find that relatable because what we forget as people who have been in this craft for a long time.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: and who care about it and who care about the minutia is nobody knows what the fuck minutia you're talking about when you're trying to teach the basic beginners.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I fall into this trap all the time as an educator.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I go to teach a box making class and I'm talking about cutting like whatever, just, that you know, houndstooth dovetails for, for a client on a piece. And they're like, we're literally like, what's a miter?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And
Mary: Yeah, everyone's got to start somewhere.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. And this is what the value that this lady is bringing to the community is.
pjasper: Yeah.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: She's like, Hey, I don't know anything either. If you want to learn, learn with me.
pjasper: Wow. Yeah, that whole learn with me is a powerful thing for beginners. Like they feel like they're included in the conversation, right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: But it. Yes. And I think there is a distinction to be made between the people who are doing that and the people who have been doing it for six months and call themselves a master. Cause they don't, they can't face the criticism of not knowing what they're doing.
pjasper: And to be honest, a true master can be very intimidating because they're using language you don't understand.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
pjasper: They've they've lost the ability to relate to the beginner. And it just it just feels like an inhospitable, overwhelming environment. So I think a lot of beginners flock to the, hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yep.
pjasper: Let's figure this out together.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yep.
pjasper: All right, so ah that seemed, you know, that wasn't so much about competition as a, I mean, this is the Eric episode, so we can fucking go off the rails, right?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah We got there.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Listen, the the conversation goes where it wants to go. Okay.
pjasper: All right, but we're we're edging up on an hour. So why don't we, ah you know, this was an idea Mary had at the very beginning, which was kinda let's summarize and have the the listeners think, did this conversation,
pjasper: move the needle for you about competition and especially with regards to yourself. Has it made you evaluate your own competitive tendencies or has it has it allowed you to categorize your own competitive tendencies as, oh, these are good. And this probably, I probably do this a little too much. Maybe it's not so good. So has it moved the needle for you? And does anyone want to offer a summary statement about being competitive with the arts?
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, um I think in summary, this is maybe the best episode we've ever done.
pjasper: That's because it's the Eric episode.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: i think I think if I were to objectively compare it to the other ones, I would say this is the best one that we've ever had.
pjasper: What a pile of horseshit. Oh my god. We'll be lucky if we don't lose listeners.
Mary: yeah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, there are definitely some patrons who are canceling their membership after this episode.
Mary: okay wait one more point i'm not going to summarize but what you just said kind of uh sparked something in my brain of like when you think of yourself like you know especially within youtube and social media there's so many people who leave comments of like this is such shit i could do this better or like you know like people who leave negative comments out there like I think that they don't quite understand that design is subjective or art can you know varies per person.
Mary: And I would encourage our listeners, if you are one of those people who likes to leave those comments, like just think about it. i Okay, yeah, Paul's shaking his head, which I doubt any of our listeners are.
pjasper: Yeah, our listeners our listeners are not dickheads.
Mary: her
pjasper: I mean, we're the dickheads, not them.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: ah they might They might leave those comments on this episode to be fair.
Mary: That is true.
pjasper: ah
Mary: That's true. That's true. But I would say like, if you are one of those people, you know, think about this whole idea of competitiveness and like, whether or not you actually are just insecure.
Mary: And that's your way of, you know, lashing out a little bit.
pjasper: oh
Mary: And I just, ah man, I just can't stand this kind of comments. I don't think they add anything positive to the world. And that's the similar like comparison to to competitiveness. It's putting positivity into the world or for yourself as opposed to negativity and comparison of but between artists.
Mary: Go ahead.
pjasper: All right, Mary, follow up question to that. Do you notice, so I've noticed a pattern that, If you're doing a technique that is measurable and has a metric associated, it you get the trolls being like, why'd you do it that way?
Mary: Mm -hmm.
pjasper: I could do it 10 times easier that way. But if you have a post that is nothing but pure design and art, i I mean, they might say it's not for me, but I get, I get way more negative commentary on something that is comparable and and a competition and a metric than I do that something does not have a metric.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: 100 %
Mary: Mm, interesting. Okay, I mean that's, I guess a good thing maybe? I don't know.
pjasper: Well, I don't know, is that your experience? Did you notice that?
Mary: Well, I haven't noticed it that much. I think I just noticed it more on YouTube rather than Instagram because I don't really read Instagram comments. Like YouTube, it's more of like, oh, i this thing sucked.
Mary: Like I clicked away instantly.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, YouTube's brutal
Mary: And I think people are just a lot more aggressive on YouTube, at least.
pjasper: Oh, okay.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Well, I think the, the audience skews older, um, and they don't understand how to traverse the internet as much. But, uh, if I can be ages for a second, um, I, I, I see the same trend based around tool brands too, the more expensive the tool, the more angry people are that they can't afford it because that's a measurable metric, right? Like it's, if you are just starting out and you haven't invested thousands of dollars into your woodshop yet, and all you have is, uh, you know,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: a DeWalt job site saw in a Makita router from 1980 that your grandpappy gave you. And then somebody busts out a, you know, a Festool plunge router that costs $1 ,600. A lot of those guys are, and I freely say guys there, cause I've never had a woman be like, your Festool router is fucking stupid.
pjasper: yeah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You know?
Mary: I'm gonna comment that on every single one of your videos from now on.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: no
pjasper: um
Mary: Knowing full well I have the exact same router.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Please, please do, please do. um Um, but I think there is that, that, um, feeling of for, I think it can fall under competition of I am somehow a lesser woodworker because I don't have these fancy tools.
pjasper: Oh,
Mary: Yeah.
pjasper: oh that's interesting.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: And I think the other thing that happens is people try to hide their inexperience with fancy tools. So they think instead of developing skill, I'm going to buy these fancy tools because it will make it easier for me to make things and therefore people won't know that I don't have experience.
pjasper: Oh.
Mary: AKA CNCs.
pjasper: All right, Eric, that last comment.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I'm not saying that's, I'm not saying that's exclusive, but I think that that can play a role in that.
pjasper: That last comment relates to what is going to be our next episode, which is imposter syndrome. And I think people who buy fancy tools to qualify them into the arena of the big boys and the big girls have imposter syndrome because they know they don't have the skills to back it up and they just bought the tools to get there.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Whoo.
pjasper: But we'll handle that episode another time. And since neither of you motherfuckers offered a so a summary statement, I guess I'm going to. i
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I absolutely did. I said this is the best episode we've ever done, and it's going to have the highest retention rate.
pjasper: ah ah The two things that will stick with me besides we should not do another Eric episode anytime soon Is is that competition ah is a double -edged sword it has good aspects and negative aspects when you take it too far and I love the idea of thinking about a metric being a key cornerstone to be able to derive competition and the third thing is that thinking about being competitive as a developmental process as we age or as we get into something, you know, more early in it versus late into it or early in your life or late in life. So those are those are going to be my sort of big ticket items.
Mary: I think those were all points that Paul made himself.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah, they they they were.
Mary: that's a
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: They were. um I will also in the and the the competitive person in me also just wants to point out that as far as far as, ah you know, segs and ideas for this show, I'm batting about 750 right now.
Mary: Oh my god.
pjasper: That was a good one.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You know, like all my segs have all been a home run. ah The idea of the master series was a home run. And I have one bad fucking episode and I'm getting lamb bastard out here.
pjasper: ah
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Okay.
pjasper: No, Eric, Eric, did Eric, the chat GBT roast was a great idea.
Mary: Oh my god.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: I'm sorry for taking creative risks.
Mary: That was excellent.
pjasper: That was really good.
Mary: um And we should point out that our next episode is imposter syndrome. If people have comments or thoughts, which I know most people should, because I know it's very common, please let us know.
pjasper: Yes.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah. And we're going to have a, we're going to have a guest on that episode.
pjasper: Yeah, we'll put total imposter.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We're not going to reveal who it is because they are. Fucking phenomenal at what they do. And we're going to dive deep into how even they struggle with imposter syndrome after what I believe is 15 to 20 years at the top of their field.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Total.
pjasper: Okay, with that, I just want to thank our patrons in the last month. Oh my god, we got a bunch in the last month. Chase Soward, Ed Duncan, David Dooyard, who is my chair making mentor and a very, very, yeah, a very close personal friend of mine.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: What? what works
pjasper: Anthony Czekas, Greg Schroeder, Tanner Gunther, Berlo Thompson, Nathaniel Belgazal, Jono, Robert Piolanti, and Candice P.
pjasper: All of you, I know that's about 10 to 12 of you, we appreciate it.
Mary: Wow, thank you.
pjasper: Yeah, because this is good.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: You guys are amazing.
pjasper: Yeah, it pay as I said, it pays for our our hosting, but it also gives us a little bit to like buy better mics, buy better equipment, and maybe go out to eat once in a while together.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Yeah.
Mary: Yeah, get more alcohol on you guys.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Buy buy better mic so you guys can hear this conversation more clearly.
pjasper: And with that, we will conclude the Eric episode.
Mary: Paul is so relieved right now.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: yeah we just yeah we can we Can we just title this the Eric Oopsy?
pjasper: Yes.
Mary: Oh my god.
pjasper: ah And for those who want more complete and utter bullshittery, you can join us on the after show, which if you're a patron,
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: Hey Paul, what are we talking about on the after show?
pjasper: uh, I forget.
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq: We'll see you in the after show. Okay, bye.
