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Episode 20 - Erik said, "Let's Just WING IT THIS EPISODE!!" & Thoughts on COMPETITIVENESS
1.4k Plays2 months ago
As soon as we sat down to record, Erik said, "Let's just WING IT!!" , instead of following an outline for the conversation about: IS BEING COMPETITIVE A GOOD THING? Paul is noticeably uncomfortable and what ensued is lovely W.I.B. history.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Focus
00:00:18
pjasper
Welcome back, maker community. Oh, boy, is today going to be a good one. ah Welcome back to your favorite show. Woodworking is bullshit.
00:00:30
pjasper
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, woodworker at night, scientist by day, and I'm joined by my two miraculous, astounding, fabulous co-hosts, Eric Curtis.
00:00:38
Mary
Oh!
00:00:39
pjasper
In the left corner, Eric Curtis, full-time furniture maker and content creator. And in the right corner, Mary Tsai, UX designer by day, contemporary furniture maker by night.
00:00:52
Mary
What is that accent?
00:00:54
pjasper
I have no idea.
00:00:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's the transatlantic accent, baby. He's bringing it back to the 40s.
00:00:57
pjasper
you know I have no idea.
00:00:57
Mary
yeah
00:00:59
pjasper
Well, so, just so everyone knows, we're gonna call this...
00:01:03
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Paul is so uncomfortable right now. It's amazing.
00:01:06
Mary
He's freaking out.
00:01:08
pjasper
We are gonna call this the Eric
Format Change Discussion
00:01:11
pjasper
Curtis episode.
00:01:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You see, listen, i we've done this in the past where it's like we're trying something new and Paul's like, and just so everybody knows, this is Eric's idea.
00:01:19
pjasper
Oh, just so every.
00:01:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
and then And then when he succeeds, he's like, that was a great idea we all had, huh? and was so I'm so glad we tried that.
00:01:30
pjasper
I'm already shifting the blame of a terrible episode on to Eric. So but we decided this week, instead of starting with the question, we're going to play fuck all and just start with the first segment.
00:01:35
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
you
00:01:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
goddamn right, baby.
00:01:41
pjasper
And then we'll come to the question later.
00:01:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We're gonna, we're gonna ride. We're gonna write. Here's the lesson. I'll let you know a little behind the scenes, friends. We were having the pre show, we were trying to figure out what the the show is going to be. And we all just were like, hey, we're not feeling very funny.
00:01:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We're not feeling very light hearted right now. So we took a shot of whiskey, and we decided to reverse the order. So here's what we're gonna lead with. And this does have to do with the topic kind of adjacent.
00:02:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But here's what
00:02:04
Mary
Also, we have no idea what Eric's about to say.
00:02:06
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Oh yeah, they this is it this is the secret seg, baby.
00:02:06
pjasper
Yeah, Eric didn't tell us what the secret segment is.
00:02:10
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
The secret seg right now is ah we're gonna put your profiles into chat GPT and have them roast you.
00:02:16
pjasper
Oh no!
00:02:17
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And we're gonna see what comes out. Now, now, I've already put them in, but I've not read them.
00:02:21
Mary
Oh my gosh.
00:02:24
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So this is a live read of both of yours profiles right now, okay?
00:02:26
Mary
Oh. oh This is like a thing, right?
00:02:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So, so, all right.
00:02:29
pjasper
Oh my god.
00:02:32
Mary
or Okay.
00:02:32
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
This is a thing that Sarah told me about and I didn't know it was a thing until she sent me just, she just like completely shat on my profile. And I was like, that's hilarious, but also like WTF. what like What's that? And she was like, no chat GPT, like roast people now.
ChatGPT Roasts and Laughter
00:02:48
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I was like, Oh,
00:02:49
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
you should have led with it being computer generated.
00:02:50
Mary
You thought she was just shitting on your all your stuff?
00:02:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I was like, I was like, your comedic chops are exceptional. So with that being said, um I did ask chat GPT to roast Paul's Instagram profile.
00:03:01
pjasper
Yes.
00:03:01
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And this is this is what it came up with.
00:03:05
pjasper
ah
00:03:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Paul's Instagram profile is like walking into a shrine dedicated to the worship of wood. and not the cool, rustic kind, but the I whisper sweet nothings into mahogany every night kind. The McCallen boxes are so lovingly crafted, you'd think he's trying to impress the whiskey itself. Like, hey, I know you're aged to perfection, but have you seen my woodworking?
00:03:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Take a moment, or or sorry, the moment he labeled something a huge mistake with that expression. I knew this man takes his craft more seriously than most people take their lives. It's the kind of intensity usually reserved for brain surgery or diffusing bombs, but nope, here it is in the middle of a woodworking project.
00:03:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
The fancy trays and cases are so meticulously designed, it's clear that Paul is creating a life where everything has its perfect little place.
00:03:47
Mary
Wow.
00:03:54
Mary
Is this a roast?
00:03:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Too bad he can't organize the chaos in his head the same way.
00:03:57
pjasper
Or my shop. ah
00:04:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Your shop is fucking wild.
00:04:00
Mary
That is true.
00:04:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I feel like, have we talked about this on this pod?
00:04:06
pjasper
No.
00:04:07
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Oh, guys, it's chat pause. Because if you ever get a chance to walk in a pull shot, first of all, the ceilings are about four and a half feet tall. Like, just everything is hitting you in the fucking head.
00:04:17
pjasper
ah
00:04:17
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And he's got shit everywhere. I'm talking acres of wood in a two-car garage, plus all of his machines, plus his hand tools.
00:04:26
pjasper
have
00:04:26
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And he just he knows where everything is. I don't know how he does it. But he's like, yeah, I got this one piece of like maple burl. 2004 and it's over there in the corner behind seven other pieces of mine and I'm like what it's insane.
00:04:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It's insane It is Yeah,
00:04:41
pjasper
Yeah, it's a problem. It's a problem.
00:04:43
Mary
It's only a problem if you can't find anything.
00:04:46
pjasper
Well, yeah, until like someone's head hits a clamp down and that hits 15 other things and that is like a chain reaction.
00:04:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
yeah and then it start is it raining sharp metal yeah All right
00:04:56
pjasper
Yeah, and it's dented like finished pieces before.
00:05:00
Mary
Oh no!
00:05:01
pjasper
Yeah, it's been a it's been a problem.
00:05:02
Mary
Oh, yikes.
00:05:04
pjasper
Okay, anyway, back.
00:05:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
to To finish...
00:05:04
Mary
Wait, what?
00:05:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
to Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
00:05:06
Mary
Did you do yours? Because I feel like you are the most make fun of all out of all of us.
00:05:09
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But but let me let... Oh, 100%, we'll get there. But to to finish Paul's out, honestly, Paul's woodworking skills are on point, but I bet he's the type to offer you a coaster before you even think of putting down your drink.
00:05:13
Mary
Okay.
00:05:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah So here's to Paul. May his projects forever be flawless and his need for perfection just a little less intense for everyone's sake.
00:05:28
pjasper
Oh, get out of here, chat GPT.
00:05:30
pjasper
You fucking suck.
00:05:30
Mary
Yeah, it's so wrong.
00:05:32
Mary
Like, I feel like Paul is not the perfectionist.
00:05:32
pjasper
That none- I'm not.
00:05:35
Mary
Like, yeah.
00:05:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
All right, well let's check out what I had to say about Mary.
00:05:39
pjasper
Fail. Fail, chat GPT.
00:05:39
Mary
Oh.
00:05:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
All right, Mary's.
00:05:42
Mary
Wait, which chat, which EBT is this?
00:05:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Do you fucking know who you're talking to?
00:05:47
Mary
Is it 3.5?
00:05:50
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Which chat, the kind that says chat GPT at the top fucking corner, I don't know.
00:05:54
Mary
I'm curious because based off of the, if it's 3.5 or four, what the, when it was last updated, like the data is most recent.
00:06:02
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It's seven.
00:06:02
pjasper
Oh. My.
00:06:03
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah Mary's Instagram profile is like if Martha Stewart and the Pinterest board had a baby, but that baby was raised exclusively in a hipster workshop.
00:06:04
pjasper
God.
00:06:04
Mary
Oh my God.
00:06:09
Mary
Oh my god!
00:06:12
pjasper
oh
00:06:13
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
She's got that. I'm totally just working on a casual project vibe, but you know deep down she's probably stressing over whether her wood grain is trendy enough for the algorithm.
00:06:23
Mary
Oh my god!
00:06:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
the The mirror selfie with the headphones is giving strong vibes of,
Does Competition Enhance Creativity?
00:06:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I'm here to craft, but also I might drop an indie album energy.
00:06:37
Mary
That's amazing. Oh my god.
00:06:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah Her workspace.
00:06:41
Mary
Also, that means it is GPD 4 because it's up to date.
00:06:45
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Okay, all right. Her workspace is so organized, it's like she's preparing for a photo shoot for a lifestyle magazine that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, the rest of us are just trying to find a screwdriver that isn't lost under a pile of existential despair.
00:06:53
Mary
Not wrong.
00:06:58
Mary
So it's like Paul versus me.
00:07:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:07:01
Mary
Her workshops.
00:07:02
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Ooh, this is a strong way to end it. And let's talk about those intricate designs because nothing says I need therapy, like spending hours perfecting a wooden maze. The only thing missing in that caption is something that says, just just making this to distract myself from the void.
00:07:20
Mary
What was it, a wooden maze?
00:07:21
pjasper
ah
00:07:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, it was the the Hobbit piece.
00:07:24
Mary
Oh, I see.
00:07:26
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's strong.
00:07:26
pjasper
That actually was a much better roast.
00:07:27
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's strong.
00:07:29
pjasper
That was much better.
00:07:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's strong.
00:07:30
Mary
Yeah, that's pretty good.
00:07:31
pjasper
The headphones really got me.
00:07:32
Mary
I'm into it.
00:07:33
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
The headphone dropping the indie album.
00:07:34
Mary
a I love it.
00:07:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was strong. All right.
00:07:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Now i did I did mine first, so I have read this and it is. Very good. Uh, but it's not in the third person. So it just says this Instagram pro because I didn't know yet.
00:07:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I said, can you roast this Instagram profile, not Eric's.
00:07:53
Mary
a
00:07:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So this Instagram profile looks like it belongs to someone who spends more time caressing wood than they do with actual humans.
00:08:02
Mary
Oh my god!
00:08:02
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You can, you can, you can almost hear the wood whispering your mic.
00:08:06
Mary
Oh
00:08:08
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
only friends
00:08:10
Mary
my god!
00:08:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
The precision in those joints is matched only by the loneliness in his eyes. Like he's car like he's carving out a space in his life where emotions used to be.
00:08:23
pjasper
but
00:08:23
Mary
It was so good!
00:08:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That heart sign is probably the closest thing to intimacy he's had since his last woodworking project.
00:08:27
pjasper
Ha ha ha ha ha ha
00:08:31
Mary
Oh my gosh!
00:08:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
let's night Let's not even start with the secret compartments because nothing says I have trust issues like building furniture with hidden drawers for your feelings.
00:08:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
This guy's so dedicated to his craft that the tools in his shop are probably named after the relationships he's lost along the way.
00:08:49
Mary
Wow, it really like stuck on to this point of you being lonely.
00:08:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It really, it really did. ah The chisels and clamps know more about his deepest thoughts than any therapist ever will.
00:08:59
Mary
Oh my god.
00:09:00
pjasper
Oh, Eric, that's... it's so brutal.
00:09:02
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's strong, that's strong, man.
00:09:04
Mary
Wow, I'm really surprised it didn't do like the whole, oh, this guy's such a stereotypical looking windworker.
00:09:10
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I know it didn't touch any of that. It was just like, hey, you look dead inside.
00:09:12
Mary
Wow, you're so lonely.
00:09:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was strong, that was strong.
00:09:17
pjasper
Oh, God. It was very good.
00:09:20
Mary
Wow.
00:09:20
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That was good. So now that we're feeling loose and goose, ah creativity, competition, how we feeling? We feeling funnier now?
00:09:29
pjasper
Well, now that the the whiskey's kicking in.
00:09:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It's a good reverse egg.
00:09:31
pjasper
yeah Yeah.
00:09:32
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
God damn right it is.
00:09:32
Mary
Oh my god.
00:09:34
pjasper
I'm still hung up on Mary with her indie headphones. Ain't she might drop an indie album?
00:09:41
Mary
I don't even, I'm trying to think of what indeed happens. Oh, it was your protection.
00:09:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:46
pjasper
ah
00:09:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was strong, man. It was strong.
00:09:49
pjasper
All right.
00:09:50
Mary
Oh man.
00:09:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
All right. All right. All right. Now, now we get into the real seg. All right. Now we, now we do, we put Paul at ease knowing that we got a laugh out of that one and we can dive into more academic questions of which he's still uncomfortable because we don't have an outline.
00:10:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We just have questions.
00:10:06
pjasper
Wait, we're going to wing it today, baby.
00:10:07
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We're going to wing it, baby.
00:10:08
Mary
This is the true Eric Curtis spirit.
00:10:10
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Honestly, you should use a, you show up knowing your shit and then you just figure out how to get the fuck through the shit during the conversation.
00:10:10
pjasper
This this is, yes.
00:10:19
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's where the best things happen in life.
00:10:22
Mary
Interesting.
00:10:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Hear me now, that's how I won an Emmy. So ah the we're gonna start with a couple of quotes from our listeners. We asked them about ah competition as a creative force. Is competition good for creativity? Does it help creativity? Does it help drive you to be a more creative person? So these are just some of the quotes and and we'll go just yes or no, agree, disagree right off the jump.
00:10:49
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
from ah Wood to Wells. He says, competition is destructive, creativity is productive, they are not congruent. Agree or disagree?
00:10:58
pjasper
disagree. It's too radical.
00:11:01
Mary
Yeah, I would say that's very black and white.
00:11:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I would agree with both of you. I think that that is too radical is a good way to put it. ah My buddy Eric at Eli Woodworks said, pressure makes me rise to the occasion.
00:11:15
Mary
I would agree.
00:11:16
pjasper
Agree, but what happens when the pressure is gone?
00:11:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Mmm.
00:11:20
pjasper
Then what are you going to do?
00:11:20
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's a good one. That's a good one. I think, uh, at it at face value. Yeah, I would agree with it. Um, old mountain woodworking said, I wake up in piss excellence competition drives me, but I don't require it.
00:11:34
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Agree or disagree.
00:11:34
Mary
But that's incredible.
00:11:39
Mary
um I wouldn't say that I pissed excellence, but I agree with the second part.
00:11:42
pjasper
mary Mary pisses excellence.
00:11:44
pjasper
She does.
00:11:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Absolutely.
00:11:45
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Literally in everything she does.
00:11:45
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah. She shits it too, just for the record.
00:11:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:11:50
pjasper
I would agree. I like that. It's like I use it as a tool, but it's not required. I like that view.
00:11:55
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Hmm. Yeah. Agreed as well. Using it as a tool, knowing it has its place is good. Uh, B coffee 66 says, I think competition is good for developing skills, but creative collaboration more so for artists.
00:12:10
pjasper
Ooh, I like this because they're separating the idea of measurable skills versus art and collaboration, which is I think something we'll get into. So I like that separation of the two, that it's useful for one and maybe not the other.
00:12:26
Mary
Yeah, I think I would agree. It's so like, it really depends. But yeah, I think for on the most part, I might agree.
00:12:34
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think we're all nuanced enough that we know. like We can just assume you know it all depends. like It's all situational. um
00:12:41
Mary
Yeah, like we said, it's like, black and white doesn't make sense. There's always some sort of in between
00:12:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, right. And so, consequently, I think I'm going to disagree with this one. I think competition is, in fact, good for skills. But healthy competition between friends can also make for really interesting um collaborations and just fun exercises.
00:13:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, and Paul, I saw that face. This is an audio format though. So if you disagree with me, you're going to have to tell me audibly, uh,
00:13:09
pjasper
Sorry. Sorry.
00:13:12
Mary
Paul disagreed with you about everything about this episode.
00:13:15
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
he's coming to not, uh, Rob Spradlin says, yes, no, it's complicated.
00:13:16
pjasper
Yeah. if Yeah.
00:13:23
Mary
that Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
00:13:24
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a blanket. Yes. That's a good way to end that. So that being said, um, I'm sure you can
00:13:27
pjasper
Yeah.
Psychological Insights on Competition
00:13:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
kind of get a sense by now.
00:13:32
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Our question is, does being competitive make you a better maker and or artist? And this is, this is a tricky thing because, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think of the three of us, am I the only one that played sports growing up?
00:13:50
Mary
Uh, no, excuse me. I played many sports.
00:13:53
pjasper
I mean, I did a little more than, yeah, you did more than me for sure.
00:13:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
What did you play?
00:13:57
Mary
Uh, I played tennis my whole life and then I'll say softball and okay.
00:14:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
All right. I said sports, but that's fine. Um, so, all right. I apologize, Mary. Um, I however, I think like when you grow up playing sports, I think that there is.
00:14:19
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It's easier to see the inherent value in competition as a creative exercise. I don't think that they are on opposite ends of the spectrum or maybe they are, maybe they're, they're opposite sides of the same coin. I'm not entirely sure. I'm still trying to work through this as part of the interesting part of this conversation, but I always think about football because it's my favorite sport always has been my entire life and.
00:14:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Football is based around the idea of competition, right? You play to win the game as the great Hermet words once said, but a good coach, their job is to assess what's happening in a game, in a league, in a time period in which they're coaching and create new offensive schemes or defensive schemes to, uh, put their team in a position to win.
00:15:12
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And the bad coach doesn't create new schemes, but tries to bolster their roster with the best available players and just tries to win through brute force. So I think that's one example of creativity and competition coexisting quite peacefully.
00:15:28
pjasper
You mean the the desire to win led to new scheme development?
00:15:28
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think, well,
00:15:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think the desire to win, I think creative thinking
00:15:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
is favored in a situation like that. People who can think creatively can scheme new ways to win, right?
00:15:46
pjasper
Okay.
00:15:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So, so the desire to win leads to creative thinking because it's, it's necessary.
00:15:51
pjasper
and Okay.
00:15:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But also I think that there is, um, and we talked on a little bit in the pre-show about this, but I had this, I have a sneaking suspicion that Paul has some research on this because I believe there is some research about this, but I think creativity and competition are.
00:16:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
inherently linked from the time of childhood. If you put a group of five-year-olds on a playground without any distractions of of phones or shiny things, and you tell them go play, like we all experienced this as children. You go out there and what are these five-year-olds do? They create a game.
00:16:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
They invent a game. they They go through the creative process of developing rules and regulations about what you can and cannot do. And the overwhelming majority of that time, not always, but most of the time, the game that's created is a competitive game of some kind.
00:16:47
pjasper
Hmm.
00:16:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
right There is, it's it's tag, it's hide and see, it's whatever it is.
00:16:50
pjasper
Hmm.
00:16:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
there's And it goes through iterations and they are creating through competition and they're refining through competition.
00:16:53
pjasper
Hmm.
00:16:57
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I don't know, I'll be honest with you, I don't know how that links directly to woodworking and the arts. But it feels like there's something innate in the competitive creative balance. Like I said, maybe they're two sides of the same coin. And went like, if you if you choose to see them as opposites versus a scale.
00:17:24
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I don't know. I don't know how those things link, but I i don't think they're there. I don't think they're different. I think they're they exist somewhere together.
00:17:36
Mary
Yeah, I mean, there's something to be said about the gamification of ah competition, I guess, so whether it's like a personal endeavor of, you know, you creating your own game of, can I do this better than either my past self or someone else? That is definitely a valid thing. Would you say that, like,
00:17:58
Mary
Your competitive side comes from sports in your childhood because I can pinpoint exactly where my competitiveness comes from.
00:18:06
pjasper
Where did it come from, Mary?
00:18:08
Mary
ah from having an older brother and constantly being compared constantly from teachers from parents from everything and he's six years older so he beat me every time so of course i am always going to be like oh i have to do better even though he beat me every time like that's just me being like all right well maybe next time i can beat him and eventually i could beat him in mario kart at one point so
00:18:09
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Mmm.
00:18:10
pjasper
Ah.
00:18:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Mm-hmm.
00:18:13
pjasper
Hmm.
00:18:31
pjasper
Hmm.
00:18:32
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, I, it's funny that you say that because as soon as you ask that question, um, my initial instinct was no, it was, it came because I had siblings and we were all, and we were closer in age, right?
00:18:40
Mary
Yeah.
00:18:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
My sister's two years older, my brother is 16 months younger and we had a, an older half brother that's seven years older than her than me. Um, but we, it was just everything in our childhood was a competition.
00:18:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Right.
00:18:54
Mary
yeah
00:18:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I think that is probably what
00:19:01
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think that's the positive and the negative of it, because I learned early on that like it's a fun communal aspect.
00:19:03
pjasper
Yeah.
00:19:06
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
To compete is to have a thing to do with your friends and these people that you love and care about.
00:19:08
pjasper
Yeah.
00:19:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But also, you know there's the for for lack of a less dramatic word to use, so the trauma of being a younger sibling, and right like there is that component of it.
00:19:19
Mary
yeahp
00:19:23
pjasper
Well, speaking of it being a double-edged sword, which is kind of what you said, Eric. the So speaking to the research, which is where I always like to start thinking about a topic. I always like to see what's known first from a research perspective. And then I like to swirl in our own experiences from life, because I feel like the research anchors it. It puts a framework down to really deconvolute our own personal experiences, which are swirled with emotion and stuff.
00:19:49
pjasper
so Everyone, I think, in the psychology literature, everyone admits that there's positives associated with being competitive. And those positives are, it's a powerful extrinsic motivator that helps us, that helps push us. We compare ourselves to others. Boy, that look at those joints. They're so tight. They're so perfect. I want mine to look like that, right? Like that pushes you to cut better joints.
00:20:20
pjasper
or they make something and they do it in half the time or a tenth of the time and you're like, God damn, why did it take me so long? So like obviously being competitive can push you to be better at something, but it can also, here's the cons now, the cons, it can lead to exhaustion and burnout.
00:20:42
pjasper
right Constantly comparing yourself to others is exhausting. So psychologist Alice Shugler suggests that competition makes people constantly compare themselves and look to others for approval. This constant comparison in search for validation is unhealthy and can lead to negative self-image and even worsened self-esteem if you think about it to and a large degree.
00:21:07
pjasper
And according to Sander van Linden, another PhD in the psychology literature, when competition is the main source of people's motivation, they're no longer motivated after the competition is over, right?
00:21:20
pjasper
Because that it's that external push that became the the tsunami of energy. And then when that was over, where are you? What do you have?
00:21:29
Mary
They piss excellence, in other words.
00:21:29
pjasper
So I mean, they pissed excellence, right? At least they piss excellence while they're in the competition. um So, you know, it's a double-edged sword. It can be used for good and and I think it can be used for bad. as And by the way, it's been hyper competitiveness has been tied to low self-esteem and perfectionism, right? Because if you're so driven to win, you use perfectionism as a safeguard to avoid losing, right? It has to be perfect.
00:21:59
pjasper
Right. ah So, you know, these these are all ties to some pretty negative or things that can be negative, they go too far. But so that that's more or less what the research suggests. Now, I want to point something out, though, that wasn't that I sort of knew in the back of my head, and I didn't read it today, but I want to bring it up.
00:22:20
pjasper
Eric, you talked about sports, right? And you talked about competition and fueling creativity. yeah I don't know about the the whole creative link yet. I haven't figured that out. But what I do know is that I feel like competition involves something measurable. So points in a game, your time in a race, the height that you can jump. like the In order to be competitive, something has to um there has to be a measurable metric.
00:22:49
pjasper
And in woodworking, if you say, I'm being competitive about like, I cut better, you know, those dovetails are better, you're looking at the size of the gaps.
Personal Reflections on Competitiveness
00:22:58
pjasper
right? It's something measurable. Whereas how do you compare someone's painting to another person's painting and say, damn, that's better because there isn't a a clear measurable with art. So at least when you're saying I'm competitive about this or that, it has to be associated with something measurable. And I do believe that's the case from what I from what I can think of in my own head.
00:23:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think that's a really interesting distinction to be made. And that's fair. This is why the conversation are like, who's the greatest of all time? Like nobody, that conversation is endless because it changes all the time because there's no measurable distinction, right? You can say who scored the most points in NBA history. That's a measurable distinction. Who's the greatest? Who knows? Um,
00:23:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But this is where the conversation about social media becomes interesting then, because that then creates that creates a false measurable for creativity in some ways, right?
00:23:48
pjasper
That's immeasurable.
00:23:51
Mary
ah hate it
00:23:52
pjasper
it's It's immeasurable.
00:23:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Now, it's right.
00:23:53
pjasper
It's number number of followers.
00:23:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
but Yeah, how many people, how many people do you, how many followers do you have?
00:23:56
pjasper
Yeah.
00:23:58
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
How many views do you get?
00:23:59
pjasper
ye Yep.
00:23:59
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
How many dollars are you making off it?
00:24:01
pjasper
Yep.
00:24:01
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah So that influences that conversation and to that point um our Our friend Lewis a patron of ours asked the question at Black Apron Woodworking asked the question Do you think the saturation of online content can impose this feeling of being competitive on us?
00:24:14
Mary
Ugh,
00:24:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Which like that's what that is, right?
00:24:17
Mary
I hate it.
00:24:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Like how How do you take a thing that is immeasurable and and give it measurable statistics metrics.
00:24:28
pjasper
ah Metrics, yeah.
00:24:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
There it is.
00:24:30
pjasper
Yeah.
00:24:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We got there as a team.
00:24:33
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
it is it's it's I think it does create this really false thing because you see people and like, listen, I think we all do this to some extent, maybe less as we get older um or less as you become more successful on platforms. But certainly early on when I was,
00:24:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
you know, in like trying to figure out Instagram, and I would see things go viral, and be like, Why the hell is this video going viral? Like this work is shit. What like my work is way better.
00:25:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I had to figure out number one, that their videos were better than mine, right? But that's a craft. That's not a that's not an artistic measure right there. But also, it's just look at the draw sometimes, you know, you're in the right position at the right time, and a thing happens to go viral.
00:25:12
pjasper
Mm hmm.
00:25:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But then what ends up happening is you feel like that's a reflection on your creative capacity.
00:25:20
pjasper
Mm hmm.
00:25:26
Mary
Yeah, when you say for social media, man, it's hard though, because there's there's two kinds of mediums. There's like the actual art piece that you're creating, at least in our world of like the medium, but then there's also the video editing side or like the virality side or trendiness of your post, etc. Like there, there are two different kinds of metrics. Like, I don't know i don know how to explain it. But Social media, in my perspective, is not at all how I measure my self-worth, I guess. um And it's not something that I focus on a lot either. So from like yeah for for me,
00:26:09
Mary
social media does not really come too much into play.
00:26:12
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
All right, Mary, I'm going to, I'm going to push back against you real quick.
00:26:12
Mary
But yeah, I know you're going to.
00:26:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah You know me well enough. Uh, you know, you know, I love you. You know, I respect you. Um, I am going to posit that you don't utilize social media because you're not sure that you can be the best at it and the competitive drive within you won't allow you to be second to somebody else.
00:26:35
Mary
ah
00:26:37
pjasper
So then I don't try all
00:26:38
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Mm-hmm. It's quitting before you start.
00:26:40
Mary
some yeah There's some validity in that for sure. ah I will say that's not the only reason. The other reason is I don't have time.
00:26:48
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah Sure. Sure. Sure.
00:26:50
Mary
But yeah, if I wanted to become a content creator, then I would focus all of my energy into that. Then I would you know switch gears and start putting in a lot more effort for sure.
00:27:02
Mary
um But I think that because I know where my current state is, and yeah, I don't know, there is definitely some truth in that. It's just it's just not a viable option for me right now.
00:27:11
pjasper
wait
00:27:14
pjasper
All right, so Eric, now that we're done roasting Mary for a minute. um
00:27:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It wasn't roasting. It was just, it it was, you know, it was an honest point.
00:27:20
pjasper
and And look, and Mary fucking said it was true.
00:27:23
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
She owned up to it.
00:27:24
pjasper
Like she, yeah, she had the guts.
00:27:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
She owned up to it.
00:27:26
Mary
I mean, yeah, i'm I'm aware. I'm aware of myself.
00:27:31
pjasper
All right, just a quick question. Yes, ah yes or no, or what degree? Like on a one to 10. 10 being the most, one being the least. Are you competitive?
00:27:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
aho I would say probably like an eight.
00:27:47
pjasper
Okay? And are you quietly competitive or overtly competitive where people can see it? Do you keep it under wraps or do you let?
00:27:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Oh, i'm I'm pretty overtly competitive. I let people know that I want to win. But but to and to your point earlier about it being a tool for motivation, what i I did not have this as a younger person, but I have developed the ability to let it go once the competition is done.
00:28:02
pjasper
Mm-hmm.
00:28:12
pjasper
Mm-hmm.
00:28:12
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And what I think that does for me is it allows me to fully buy into the competition when it's happening. And then win or lose, it doesn't matter after the fact. That's not the point. The point is the enjoyment of the competition.
00:28:24
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It's the the game, right? So if we're playing darts in the shop, like, I am there to beat you. Like, that's my aim. I don't give a fuck what else is going on. But the moment somebody wins, whether I win or somebody else, ah it doesn't matter anymore.
00:28:38
pjasper
and okay
00:28:39
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Like, it's this.
00:28:39
pjasper
but
00:28:40
Mary
I don't know, competitive what?
00:28:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, it's it's the thrill. It's the thrill of being in that moment with the somebody that you enjoy being around.
00:28:48
pjasper
Okay, but Eric, that doesn't sound like an eight. That sounds like a six or something.
00:28:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, I would say it's innate because, like, depending on the thing, like, I really care if I win. And, and if I'm, if I'm completely transparent, depending on who I'm playing against, you know, like if it's, if it's like, if it's one of you guys, I love you both.
00:29:02
Mary
Yeah.
00:29:06
pjasper
Oh, snap.
00:29:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Like I don't care when or lose. If it's somebody I don't like, I'm like, ah, I'm going to beat this asshole.
00:29:14
Mary
Hahahahaha!
00:29:17
pjasper
ha All right Mary, are you competitive?
00:29:22
Mary
So it depends on what we're talking about. And I know that you Eric, no, I know Eric can push back on this.
00:29:25
pjasper
Do I have to define it?
00:29:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Can you define competition?
00:29:30
Mary
But in general, yes, I am competitive, I would put myself at like a seven, eight, e etc. However, in the field that we're talking about, I have so long studied like design and art.
00:29:42
Mary
And like, the whole point of it is that it's subjective that I am just not competitive in the field of design, because I think that comparing yourself is not useful or healthy.
00:29:56
Mary
um And I've seen it for so long now that, yeah, for me, I would say I'm not competitive in that field. If it was social media, that's a whole that's a different thing in terms of like numbers and statistics, etc.
00:30:08
Mary
But when I think about myself as like an art certain designer, I do this for myself. And I would I don't think I'm competitive.
00:30:16
pjasper
All right, and are you overtly competitive or like kinda under the wraps?
00:30:20
Mary
You guys can answer this for me.
00:30:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
how do you how do you How do you feel about Mario Kart?
00:30:23
pjasper
Under wraps!
00:30:27
Mary
For the listeners, whenever we play Mario Kart, whenever I get silent, they know that that I am in first place then.
00:30:34
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
i i have I have never left Mary's house when she is in a great mood.
00:30:37
pjasper
Yup.
00:30:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Let's put it that way.
00:30:45
Mary
How about you, Paul?
00:30:46
pjasper
All right, all right.
00:30:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Paul, are you competitive?
00:30:47
pjasper
ah Yeah, I, I used to be more competitive when I was younger. Actually, it's a developmental thing. As I've gotten older, I've gotten less competitive.
00:30:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:30:57
pjasper
I just don't I just don't feel the need.
00:30:57
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:30:59
pjasper
ah Like I don't care if someone has more money. I don't care if someone beats me or whatever. I just don't care. Life is too short to care about what other people are doing. That's kind of where I'm at these days.
00:31:09
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, you have more life experience than than you know you used to, right?
00:31:09
pjasper
So
00:31:13
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
As happens with time.
00:31:14
pjasper
Yeah, I used to be very competitive, yeah, for sure, but not so much anymore.
00:31:17
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, so I wonder to Mary's point earlier about like, you know, does it but' know when you're I don't know. I lost my train of thought there.
00:31:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I told you before the episode started, I'm not feeling super articulate tonight.
00:31:31
pjasper
Mary, Mary, Mary, Mary.
00:31:35
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And then you guys were like, let's lead this discussion.
00:31:36
pjasper
Mary, Mary, was this the wrong night to do the Eric episode?
00:31:37
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Let's let's ride.
00:31:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I told you that before we started recording.
00:31:42
Mary
It's okay.
00:31:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah It's fine.
00:31:45
pjasper
Okay, Eric, Eric, I have I have a question. So for for me, and I think as I think about, well, actually, sorry, before that, now that we gave all our answers, I thought it'd be nice to at to take a moment to have the listeners ask themselves that question.
00:31:48
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
OK.
00:32:02
pjasper
I like when podcasts kind of pause and force me to think. So I'm going to ask the question as a listener. Are you competitive?
00:32:15
pjasper
Do you feel as though you're competitive? And when you're competitive, is it overt, like written all over, or are you the silent sniper, merry type of competitive?
00:32:25
Mary
a
00:32:26
pjasper
All right, so just pause the podcast or just take a moment to think about that, because I think as you reflect upon your own answer, our discussion resonates differently.
00:32:39
Mary
Yeah, and does it affect your work and how you work, how you process things and make things? um Because like I said, I can be competitive in like general life, but when I look at it through a certain lens, then it kind of falls away a little bit.
00:32:55
pjasper
All right, I'm gonna i'm going to throw something out and I want you two to react. I think the being competitive is actually a development ah developmental process in woodworking or art or whatever, okay? I'm gonna throw this out here. So when we first start working in in a craft, right? I think that instinct is definitely to be competitive because you're looking around, you're not sure what the landscape is, you're not sure where you fit in,
00:33:22
pjasper
And you're looking at everyone trying to get a pecking order, like who's really good? Who's not? where Where do I fit in? And you're doing sort of fundamental tasks. I'm making boards straight. I'm making boards square. I'm making joints where that have gaps or do not have gaps. ah Those are measurable. How long did that take him or her? How long did that take me?
00:33:47
pjasper
Look at their dovetails. They're so fucking tight. Why are mine gappy and a mess, right? So the when you first start out, and I'm gonna have both of you react to this in a second. When you first start out, I think you're inherently competitive. It's just getting your footing, figuring out who you are, where you are. But as time goes on,
00:34:07
pjasper
as you develop your own creative voice and you figure out, this is who I am, you stop looking around for that external validation. Because when you're new to something, you want people to tell you you're good at it. right But after 10, 20 years,
00:34:23
pjasper
you know who you are you know whether you're good or not you know what your strengths and weaknesses are and in fact you've moved on from worrying about so much about the execution and how tight your joints are and you're thinking about larger more vague notional issues like How's the design? Did this move someone emotionally? And those have no comparators, really.
Art, Pricing, and Self-Worth
00:34:45
pjasper
That's much less competitive landscape. So I'd argue the competitiveness of an artist is actually part of their developmental cycle. Okay, you can both react.
00:34:55
Mary
Yeah, I would agree. I think that when you're first starting out, it's good to have goals. And I think that when you see people who are better than you, those are goals that you can strive towards to match them or to be better, etc. Like, I think that is a good part in terms of comparison, but where it falls away is one, comparing yourself to someone who has X many more years of experience than you, but two, also letting that diminish your self-worth. And it has to do with um so like your own confidence, too. Of course, when you're a beginner, you wish you could have the confidence of an expert, but you're not going to have that. So if you you know develop your skills ah and gain that experience, then your confidence starts to grow. And I think that you start to realize that the
00:35:41
Mary
like the comparison between people and you grow your own voice, you know, or develop your own voice, that starts to fall away a bit more because you realize it's not as important to you and your self-worth as an artist.
00:35:56
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, so this in fairness, just to clarify, this is the point I wanted to make earlier and then forgot what I was going to say.
00:36:02
Mary
How many drinks have you had, Eric?
00:36:03
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So thanks, buddy. Just one and a half. I told you before we started. It's not my finest evening. ah No, the the point was exactly that.
00:36:15
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was early on. um and And again, I'll just take athletes as an example. You inevitably compare yourself to more accomplished athletes in your sport because you have no body of work to compare for yourself.
00:36:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And so for the woodworker, yeah, when you start cutting dovetails, the first thing you do is look at the best dovetails that have ever been cut.
00:36:31
pjasper
Right.
00:36:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And you go, why don't mine look like that? And that's a helpful metric to gauge how far you need to go. What you don't do is look at other people's dov,
00:36:43
pjasper
Yeah.
00:36:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
tales who aren't you know very good, who haven't been cutting them very long, and to compare and contrast where you are in comparison with them.
00:36:53
pjasper
Alright.
00:36:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That's not a thing that really happens. And I think the the the key thing that happens over time is you develop that body of work to allow you to start to compare.
00:37:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
you You move away from comparing yourself to others, and you start to compare yourself to your own work and to your own experiences. And I think that that can be really beneficial, whether it's in a measurable thing like say dovetails or sports metrics, whatever that is, or in a creative thing, because at the beginning, like nobody Generally speaking, the general linear path in woodworking specifically is you learn the craft and then you learn to design and then things flow from there. So when you're learning the craft, you are focused on the measurables. Then when you master the craft and you start to figure out the design aspect, and I know like Mary took a different path, but I'm talking about the more like hobbyist woodworkery path.
00:37:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, when you start to learn the design component, everything gets thrown out because there are no measurables. It's just like, and dislike how much of the things sell for, you know, is, is really the only like metric that you have. So I think then you kind of restart at ground zero because it's a new skill, new craft that you're learning on how to design beautiful objects. But developing that body of work in there as well also allows you to compare yourself to your prior self, to your past self and figuring out if you're growing in a direction or moving in a direction that's interesting and engaging to you.
00:38:27
pjasper
I love the point about comparing, as you progress, instead of comparing yourself extrinsically to others, you compare yourself intrinsically to your former self. Because I find that's an endless source of of of motivation and inspiration.
00:38:44
pjasper
Because you can see you're getting better. And every project you're like, I'm going to outdo that previous, you know, like you just want to outdo yourself.
00:38:50
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
but but is
00:38:51
pjasper
and it
00:38:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Is that not competition though?
00:38:53
pjasper
It is, it is, but it's it's it's intrinsic competition as opposed to extrinsic.
00:38:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Right.
00:38:57
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Sure.
00:38:57
pjasper
So if it's extrinsic, when the game's over, it it falls away. But the beauty of intrinsic competition is it's there forever if you have the drive within yourself.
00:39:10
pjasper
And and you can tune it, right? you It's on your time scale, it's on your terms, intrinsic competition, right?
00:39:20
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. Well, so that brings up the comment from our friend Nikita, who, by the way, I had the pleasure of hanging out with for the evening, getting some beers with in Edinburgh, a delightful human being. Uh, but he hit us with, I think competition cheapens art. If your aim is to create the best art, then you're automatically switching, switching to an external locus of evaluation. And in my opinion, art should be about expressing yourself, not about mirroring what other people like. Fair point.
00:39:50
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think the only competition in art that is valuable is competition with yourself, not in the sense of continually gaining more sales or popularity, but with each piece having more courage to express yourself.
00:40:03
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
fully through that piece, which I think was you know not not to shame anybody else, but that was the most well articulated complete thought that I think I got when I put that question out.
00:40:14
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
um you I hate both of you.
00:40:19
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Putting giant wangs in the in the conversation in the group chat.
00:40:22
pjasper
we We did no such thing.
00:40:23
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah Nikita, they're not calling you a wang, by the way. I just want to be clear about that.
00:40:26
Mary
This happens every episode, just to be clear. We constantly try to distract.
00:40:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
usually at the moments where we're trying to articulate the most comprehensive thought of the episode too.
00:40:37
pjasper
All right.
00:40:38
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Go ahead.
00:40:38
pjasper
I have another question for y'all. Okay. So as we were talking about like developing right from early extrinsic competition towards intrinsic and you finding, you know, competing against yourself eventually, as you pursue more design and art.
00:40:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Sure.
00:40:53
pjasper
However, there's still the issue of what's the sale price, a metric and how, how many of your pieces sell and how many pieces do you make per year?
00:41:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
share
00:41:08
pjasper
So even though you may not be competitive creatively anymore, and you're just like, oh, I'm competitive with myself. Are you comparing your price points to others? And are you comparing how well you sell?
00:41:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, if you're a business person, you absolutely are comparing your price points to other people because how else are you going to understand what the market wants and is willing to pay.
00:41:27
pjasper
Hmm.
00:41:28
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But also salesmanship is a craft that one could argue is measurable by price point.
00:41:34
pjasper
Hmm.
00:41:35
Mary
Yeah, social media comes in there too.
00:41:35
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I, so sure. And let listen, I know, I know a guy, he was, I don't know if I've mentioned him on this podcast, but I've certainly mentioned him in the past. Uh, his name is Rob hair. He was one of my mentors early on, uh, in New York.
00:41:48
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And he's, he's a fantastic human. He's a really good sculptor. He's a very good furniture maker. And he would sell tables in the the six figures. And for it, like, listen, no shame to Rob. I especially at whatever I was 24, 25, didn't understand how he was pulling those kinds of numbers. And then he asked me to come do the the Philly furniture show with him a couple of years and watching him sell was a masterclass.
00:42:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
in and of itself, like it was, it was incredible.
00:42:18
pjasper
Wow.
00:42:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Like just the way he put people at ease in conversation.
00:42:25
pjasper
Tell us, tell us.
00:42:26
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
It was, it never, it was never about the furniture. It was never about the object. It was always about the person, what they're looking for, what their space is, why he's making this object.
00:42:36
pjasper
Oh.
00:42:39
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And it's a one of a kind object. There's not going to be anything like that, you know, about, and then 90 minutes later. It's a person that's going, oh, okay. I understand why that table is $125,000.
00:42:50
pjasper
Oh my god.
00:42:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And it was masterful every time because it's effortless. And you never felt like he was trying to sell you a thing because I don't think he was. He was just genuinely talking to a person about his design decisions.
00:43:03
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And then consequently, he's like, I've been doing this for 50 years. Like these, these are all of the things that led to this. And meanwhile, I'm trying to sell a piece that took me three fucking months to make for $4,000, you know?
00:43:14
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And so it. But that's also like the skill of selling I think could be measured by the sale point.
00:43:23
pjasper
Do you find yourself comparing?
00:43:24
Mary
Yeah.
00:43:25
pjasper
Do you compare yourself to that memory of how good he was at that?
00:43:28
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:29
pjasper
Yeah.
00:43:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
No, that's like, Rob is my Everest as far as salesmanship goes a hundred percent.
00:43:34
pjasper
ah
00:43:35
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But that's, that's where I think that healthy competition comes from like, or can exist because I, that's not driving me out of jealousy. Like I'm not mad that Rob sold that piece for as much as he sold it for.
00:43:43
pjasper
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I'm in awe of it. And like that, I think it's like, like when either of you make a piece, right? Like Paul, you make a box that I'm like, I wish I had made that, right?
00:44:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Like it's so good or like Mary with the Hobbit piece. I'm like, I don't know that I'm ever going to find a piece that works as well to express like the love of Tolkienism, not tokenism.
00:44:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I want to be very clear about how I enunciate that, but Tolkienism.
00:44:12
pjasper
Ah-ha-ha-ha!
00:44:15
Mary
I'm gonna sound clip that.
00:44:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah but But it is like, it's the admiration and then the the the competitive side of me I allow it to take root a little bit and say like, well, I want to try that. I want to see if I can do better. But also acknowledging that it's, it's born out of a place of admiration, not out of a place of jealousy.
00:44:36
pjasper
So it sounds like you have a healthy relationship with competition.
00:44:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, I think so. But I like that takes a lot of years to develop and that takes a body of work to also understand that if I attempt the thing, if I try to make a box better than Paul, or a Hobbit piece better than Mary and I fail, that doesn't mean that I'm a failure.
00:44:56
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And separating the value of your work from the value of yourself as a human being is another critical skill that I had to learn over time.
00:45:04
Mary
Yeah, that's all that's a whole other topic, potentially.
00:45:04
pjasper
Mary,
00:45:06
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, that's the whole podcast right there.
00:45:09
pjasper
Mary, Mary, would you say you have a healthy relationship with competition?
00:45:13
Mary
I think so. I mean, what I mentioned before, took a lot of time and, like, naturally, like, I guess, instinctually, my first gut reaction is to be competitive. However, just, like we said, having been in the field of design and art for so long now, like, it just it doesn't gain you anything to be competitive.
00:45:37
Mary
And I've been in that scenario where I've compared myself been like, Oh, well, that sucks. Like I'm piece of shit. It's like, well, that didn't do anything for me. And it just makes me feel worse. So it's you have to kind of twist that narrative in your mind into that's my next new goal, or, you know, change it into something positive.
00:45:53
pjasper
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:45:56
Mary
So yeah, I mean, Yeah, I think it just, it we've mentioned many times, but with time and expertise, it fades away.
00:46:07
pjasper
All right, related question. Does being too competitive or can being overly competitive affect your ability to make and retain friends?
00:46:19
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, nobody likes
Social Media Metrics and Creativity
00:46:20
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
a dick.
00:46:20
Mary
Yeah.
00:46:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
i ah That's all there is to it, right?
00:46:23
pjasper
ah
00:46:25
Mary
I mean, we can even point out in the woodworking world world, like in our community, people like we're not going to say say names, but like people who are just like, yeah, no one wants to hang around them because they're like, just it's just too much.
00:46:28
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:37
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. Everything is a dick slinging contest. It's like, you know oh, did you see that you know this video went went viral? or
00:46:44
Mary
Yeah.
00:46:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
you know so
00:46:44
pjasper
That's again metrics, measurables.
00:46:46
Mary
Yeah.
00:46:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. Well, of course. Cause like at that point, I mean, I guess the other side of it is, you know, did you see the awards that, but they're all measurable, right? Did you see the awards I won for a piece? Did you see how much a piece sold for? Like there's no. Nobody, at least in our community and kind of the maker woodworker community is out there, um, really holding up individual pieces and, and comparing them to other people. I don't think.
00:47:13
Mary
Yeah, but how many times have you mentioned you're Emmy?
00:47:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Uh, once this episode, because you guys both, you guys both questioned my ability to free ball it out here.
00:47:19
pjasper
ah
00:47:24
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Okay.
00:47:25
pjasper
Yeah, how are we doing on the Eric episode? Are we doing all right?
00:47:27
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Uh, Hey, Hey, speaking of competition in the middle of this episode, I was like, this is not our best episode.
00:47:34
pjasper
ah That's earned to internal, Eric. That's internal competition.
00:47:38
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
That is that's exactly.
00:47:39
pjasper
but but But I can look at the retention and the number of listens later to get some metrics.
00:47:45
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
i'm gonna I'm gonna boost this one so hard on social to try to get the metrics up higher than they've ever been.
00:47:50
pjasper
Yeah, because it was your fucking idea to fucking freeball it.
00:47:54
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
See, remember what I said about, ah you know, accepting failure when it doesn't go the right way? Like this is a perfect example.
00:47:59
pjasper
Yeah. Well, you see, I'm trying to help.
00:48:01
Mary
We're A-B testing.
00:48:02
pjasper
I'm trying to help you on the end here by putting some fucking structure on your hot mess.
00:48:07
Mary
Oh my god!
00:48:08
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah sir this is This is Paul's competitive side coming out, knowing that he's the better host.
00:48:10
pjasper
You're welcome.
00:48:17
Mary
Oh my God.
00:48:18
pjasper
uh uh i so i've i've had a few i've had a few moments when i was speaking of the the whole friend question i just asked i've had a few moments when i was feeling particularly competitive towards someone and we were friends and they're talking and i'm having a hard time really feeling the joy and appreciation for them and listening to their story like the competition was making me feel so fucking uneasy in that moment that i I was like smiling but I couldn't really feel it deeply like I was like it just makes me feel uncomfortable and that was a long time ago but I remember that my competition feelings of trying to like best that person at whatever it was I don't remember
00:48:40
Mary
Hmm.
00:48:52
Mary
Hmm.
00:48:59
pjasper
Really fucked with the the personal dynamic of like loving that person and like meeting them where they are and and if they if they
00:49:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Mmm.
00:49:06
Mary
Prevent you from feeling happy for them?
00:49:08
pjasper
Yeah, it like messed me up a little bit.
00:49:10
Mary
Yeah.
00:49:11
pjasper
And I realized that it was my own feelings of either envy or competitiveness that were underlying that tension in my chest. Now, I don't feel that anymore.
00:49:21
pjasper
Like I that that feeling has left, you know, five to 10 years ago. And I never feel that way. It could be a friend of mine from college who's making millions and millions of dollars and they're so rich and I'm honestly, I'm so happy for them.
00:49:38
pjasper
There is not a shred of envy because life now is so much more than money, right? Time is the ultimate commodity. So I don't have any of that anymore, but I do remember it impacting friendships, you know, back when I used to feel probably a little too hyper competitive.
00:49:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I can't think of a recent time where it's impacted a friendship, but I can think of a recent time where, um, I, I, I don't think it comes out often anymore, but there are definitely times where like that, that competitive rage, uh, you know, lingers a little bit. So the, I'm thinking there was, I applied for a gallery show.
00:50:18
Mary
Oh, I know the story.
00:50:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
um at ah at a gallery that will re remain remain nameless, but it it rhymes with Blart and And i listen, i've I've made my bones very clear about this to everybody involved.
00:50:37
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
over there. But the, the, the show was fine.
00:50:38
Mary
Oh my god.
00:50:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I think overall, the show was pretty good. I applied I put two pieces in neither of them got in and listen, I've I've gotten rejected from many a gallery. That wasn't my issue.
00:50:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
My issue was there were a few good pieces. There were a lot of very mediocre pieces. And there was one piece that was an absolute atrocity, in my opinion, it was at like, it was garbage and it got first place.
00:51:04
Mary
Don't win that one.
00:51:08
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I was, like I'm still, to be frank, I'm still a little pissed about it, because, well, well, it's a thing like, and so this is the, I guess part of my question is like,
00:51:13
Mary
Externally competitive.
00:51:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Is it an ego thing, which of course part of it is? Is it a competition thing, like I wanted first place and then somebody I think didn't deserve first place, got first place, that's fine. But there were people who were better than me, they got second and third place. um But also how much of that is just like, I really disagree with the premise on which they judged these pieces. And I think they made a real fatal error Or is that just justifying ah competitive nature and ego?
00:51:54
Mary
But again, this is like the whole comparison within design and art. It's subjective. If there was a quanti- what's the right word?
00:52:01
pjasper
Quantifiable. Yeah.
00:52:02
Mary
Quantifiable, like metric, then yeah, that, you know, it may be that would make more sense, but it's just the judges had a different opinion.
00:52:03
pjasper
Yeah.
00:52:12
Mary
And sometimes that's like the hard lesson that everyone has such a hard time understanding within this world is like, your opinion is totally different from someone else's and you may disagree completely, but you know, what is there to say?
00:52:26
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, in the interesting conversations that I had with Larissa after that, you know, full disclosure to folks who don't know, Larissa works over at the Blart and Cheshrick Museum ah from time to time.
00:52:37
pjasper
a
00:52:38
Mary
Was she a judge?
00:52:39
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
and And she was not a judge.
00:52:42
Mary
Okay.
00:52:42
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
um But the person who curated the show um is somebody that I know, as was one of the other judges. And the lengthy conversations that we had was their criteria for what pieces got in this show.
00:52:56
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
was not about craft it was it was about storytelling and i chose to be um a little bit coy more than i usually am about the stories of those pieces and and i think that's why they didn't get in and again that's fine like i i'm i'm okay with that because the criteria is different than what it would have been in say a woodworking gallery or a furniture gallery
00:53:21
pjasper
So Eric, you just brought up a very good point, which is it wasn't about the craft, it was about the storytelling, right? And this brings up the an issue that I think so many people have with social media. So you see all these people who have huge follower accounts and their woodworking sucks. It's so fucking amateur or basic, right? And these I know many of these woodworkers who are like period furniture, that they're like ultra you know advanced, to honestly, they're advanced level, but they suck at social media.
00:53:55
pjasper
And so it's not the numbers and the social media account and the ability to get sponsorships and free tools. It's not necessarily about what you're making. It's about how good you sell yourself, tell your story and how good you understand what social media wants. So it's really like.
00:54:12
pjasper
You know you're missing the point honestly right you missed the point in the gallery show by not telling the story and i think so many people get agitated about social media because the people who are not that good at much higher follower counts they're missing the point.
00:54:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Right.
00:54:27
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, yeah. i like to To draw another parallel to this example and to Rob from before, there's a guy named Brad Smith who runs a furniture business down here. He's out in Quakertown, I believe. Really, really nice guy. He's been doing the the furniture circuit for decades.
00:54:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, I almost worked with him for a short time. He makes barn style furniture, like kind of reclaimed style stuff, a lot of, uh, whitewashed and in sanded back kind of before that was a thing in 2015 or whatever it was. Um, and you look at his work now, he runs a very successful business guy, like four employees has been feeding his family, doing this for like 40 years. You look at his work and you're like, all right, my guy, I get.
00:55:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You know, like it's got a very particular risk that it was shabby chic before shabby chic was a thing.
00:55:16
pjasper
Okay.
00:55:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And if you didn't, if you didn't have a conversation with him or you didn't get to know him, you'd be like, this is just a dude who learned how to put farm things together and it happened to work. So he kept reproducing it. Uh, Brad has a degree from RISD, I believe, uh, and like some kind of super high, smart people engineering.
00:55:34
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, like he's, he's a.
00:55:35
Mary
Yeah, that's what that's what it says on the shit of a kid.
00:55:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, I believe that's exactly what it says on his PhD. He like he's a brilliant human being and it was a very intentional choice for him to identify what the market wanted and build a business around what the market wanted. And that's the same exact like we look at that and we say like, Okay, well, that's business. The exact same thing is happening on social media. People are recognizing I might have the ability to make high-end furniture, but nobody wants high-end furniture.
00:56:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
People want videos on how to put up floating shelves in their house.
00:56:09
Mary
Yeah, that's why DIY stuff is so successful.
00:56:09
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So they're making, right. Well, that's that's the business decision they're making is like, I don't need to go further down the the funnel because there is no sale further down the funnel.
00:56:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Whereas people who spend their whole life focused on a craft and like, listen, I, before I got into social media, I was very much in this mindset. So I'm not, I'm not faulting them for it, but it is this mindset of I have spent 20, 30, 50 years honing my craft.
00:56:37
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
So I am a legitimate master of this craft. And there are these people who have been doing it for three or four years who are making five times as much money as I am.
00:56:43
pjasper
Call themselves a master. Hmm. And they called it.
00:56:47
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And that can be, Well, they call themselves a master because they don't they don't know any better.
00:56:49
pjasper
Sorry. Yeah. And that, that really irritates a lot of people, you know, the, the, the, yeah, it's this, this self-proclaimed master woodworker who's only two years experienced.
00:56:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Sure. Sure.
00:56:59
pjasper
Oh boy.
00:56:59
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Sure.
00:56:59
pjasper
Does that get into the, that that gets people's panties in a twist.
00:57:04
Mary
And also like proclaiming that they're the ones teaching those skills.
00:57:04
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:57:08
pjasper
oh It hurts me it hurt it. I will admit it hurts me to see these beginners who have massive accounts Teaching but but but but there's not enough teachers So if they have if they have something to offer someone I'm gonna shut my trap and let them get more and people interested in the field.
00:57:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
There's not enough teachers.
00:57:29
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, and there's also, so ah to, to bring up another person, there's, I believe the handle is DIY Montreal. I want to say her handle is, is this lady from Canada who's doing very basic woodworking.
00:57:37
pjasper
I
00:57:41
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, and she's very dry. I don't mean to pick on her. I just like, I'm trying to state facts about her, her YouTube videos. She's got a massive following. Um, you know, 300, maybe 300 plus.
00:57:52
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Um, and 500 plus it's impressive.
00:57:53
Mary
500. Yeah.
00:57:56
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
She's very dry. I don't find her videos engaging at all. That's not a knock. I think she's just out there presenting the most basic information in the most straightforward possible manner. But so many people find that relatable because what we forget as people who have been in this craft for a long time.
00:58:13
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
and who care about it and who care about the minutia is nobody knows what the fuck minutia you're talking about when you're trying to teach the basic beginners.
00:58:21
pjasper
Yeah.
00:58:22
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I fall into this trap all the time as an educator.
00:58:22
pjasper
Yeah.
00:58:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I go to teach a box making class and I'm talking about cutting like whatever, just, that you know, houndstooth dovetails for, for a client on a piece. And they're like, we're literally like, what's a miter?
00:58:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And
00:58:37
Mary
Yeah, everyone's got to start somewhere.
00:58:38
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. And this is what the value that this lady is bringing to the community is.
00:58:39
pjasper
Yeah.
00:58:43
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
She's like, Hey, I don't know anything either. If you want to learn, learn with me.
00:58:48
pjasper
Wow. Yeah, that whole learn with me is a powerful thing for beginners. Like they feel like they're included in the conversation, right?
00:58:53
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
But it. Yes. And I think there is a distinction to be made between the people who are doing that and the people who have been doing it for six months and call themselves a master. Cause they don't, they can't face the criticism of not knowing what they're doing.
00:59:07
pjasper
And to be honest, a true master can be very intimidating because they're using language you don't understand.
00:59:12
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
00:59:13
pjasper
They've they've lost the ability to relate to the beginner. And it just it just feels like an inhospitable, overwhelming environment. So I think a lot of beginners flock to the, hey, I don't know what I'm doing.
00:59:21
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yep.
00:59:24
pjasper
Let's figure this out together.
00:59:26
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yep.
00:59:27
pjasper
All right, so ah that seemed, you know, that wasn't so much about competition as a, I mean, this is the Eric episode, so we can fucking go off the rails, right?
00:59:33
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah We got there.
00:59:36
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Listen, the the conversation goes where it wants to go. Okay.
00:59:39
pjasper
All right, but we're we're edging up on an hour. So why don't we, ah you know, this was an idea Mary had at the very beginning, which was kinda let's summarize and have the the listeners think, did this conversation,
00:59:54
pjasper
move the needle for you about competition and especially with regards to yourself. Has it made you evaluate your own competitive tendencies or has it has it allowed you to categorize your own competitive tendencies as, oh, these are good. And this probably, I probably do this a little too much. Maybe it's not so good. So has it moved the needle for you? And does anyone want to offer a summary statement about being competitive with the arts?
01:00:27
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, um I think in summary, this is maybe the best episode we've ever done.
01:00:34
pjasper
That's because it's the Eric episode.
01:00:35
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
i think I think if I were to objectively compare it to the other ones, I would say this is the best one that we've ever had.
01:00:43
pjasper
What a pile of horseshit. Oh my god. We'll be lucky if we don't lose listeners.
01:00:48
Mary
yeah
01:00:50
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, there are definitely some patrons who are canceling their membership after this episode.
01:00:55
Mary
okay wait one more point i'm not going to summarize but what you just said kind of uh sparked something in my brain of like when you think of yourself like you know especially within youtube and social media there's so many people who leave comments of like this is such shit i could do this better or like you know like people who leave negative comments out there like I think that they don't quite understand that design is subjective or art can you know varies per person.
01:01:26
Mary
And I would encourage our listeners, if you are one of those people who likes to leave those comments, like just think about it. i Okay, yeah, Paul's shaking his head, which I doubt any of our listeners are.
01:01:37
pjasper
Yeah, our listeners our listeners are not dickheads.
01:01:38
Mary
her
01:01:40
pjasper
I mean, we're the dickheads, not them.
01:01:40
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
ah they might They might leave those comments on this episode to be fair.
01:01:41
Mary
That is true.
01:01:45
pjasper
ah
01:01:46
Mary
That's true. That's true. But I would say like, if you are one of those people, you know, think about this whole idea of competitiveness and like, whether or not you actually are just insecure.
01:01:57
Mary
And that's your way of, you know, lashing out a little bit.
01:01:58
pjasper
oh
01:02:02
Mary
And I just, ah man, I just can't stand this kind of comments. I don't think they add anything positive to the world. And that's the similar like comparison to to
Episode Summary and Reflections
01:02:12
Mary
competitiveness. It's putting positivity into the world or for yourself as opposed to negativity and comparison of but between artists.
01:02:21
pjasper
All right, Mary, follow up question to that. Do you notice, so I've noticed a pattern that, If you're doing a technique that is measurable and has a metric associated, it you get the trolls being like, why'd you do it that way?
01:02:21
Mary
Go ahead.
01:02:34
Mary
Mm-hmm.
01:02:35
pjasper
I could do it 10 times easier that way. But if you have a post that is nothing but pure design and art, i I mean, they might say it's not for me, but I get, I get way more negative commentary on something that is comparable and and a competition and a metric than I do that something does not have a metric.
01:02:57
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
100%
01:02:57
Mary
Mm, interesting. Okay, I mean that's, I guess a good thing maybe? I don't know.
01:03:03
pjasper
Well, I don't know, is that your experience? Did you notice that?
01:03:07
Mary
Well, I haven't noticed it that much. I think I just noticed it more on YouTube rather than Instagram because I don't really read Instagram comments. Like YouTube, it's more of like, oh, i this thing sucked.
01:03:18
Mary
Like I clicked away instantly.
01:03:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, YouTube's brutal
01:03:21
Mary
And I think people are just a lot more aggressive on YouTube, at least.
01:03:21
pjasper
Oh, okay.
01:03:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Well, I think the, the audience skews older, um, and they don't understand how to traverse the internet as much. But, uh, if I can be ages for a second, um, I, I, I see the same trend based around tool brands too, the more expensive the tool, the more angry people are that they can't afford it because that's a measurable metric, right? Like it's, if you are just starting out and you haven't invested thousands of dollars into your woodshop yet, and all you have is, uh, you know,
01:03:55
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
a DeWalt job site saw in a Makita router from 1980 that your grandpappy gave you. And then somebody busts out a, you know, a Festool plunge router that costs $1,600. A lot of those guys are, and I freely say guys there, cause I've never had a woman be like, your Festool router is fucking stupid.
01:04:14
pjasper
yeah
01:04:14
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You know?
01:04:15
Mary
I'm gonna comment that on every single one of your videos from now on.
01:04:16
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
no
01:04:16
pjasper
um
01:04:19
Mary
Knowing full well I have the exact same router.
01:04:20
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Please, please do, please do. um Um, but I think there is that, that, um, feeling of for, I think it can fall under competition of I am somehow a lesser woodworker because I don't have these fancy tools.
01:04:29
pjasper
Oh,
01:04:36
Mary
Yeah.
01:04:39
pjasper
oh that's interesting.
01:04:39
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
And I think the other thing that happens is people try to hide their inexperience with fancy tools. So they think instead of developing skill, I'm going to buy these fancy tools because it will make it easier for me to make things and therefore people won't know that I don't have experience.
01:04:46
pjasper
Oh.
01:04:53
Mary
AKA CNCs.
01:04:58
pjasper
All right, Eric, that last comment.
01:05:00
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I'm not saying that's, I'm not saying that's exclusive, but I think that that can play a role in that.
01:05:05
pjasper
That last comment relates to what is going to be our next episode, which is imposter syndrome. And I think people who buy fancy tools to qualify them into the arena of the big boys and the big girls have imposter syndrome because they know they don't have the skills to back it up and they just bought the tools to get there.
01:05:11
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Whoo.
01:05:23
pjasper
But we'll handle that episode another time. And since neither of you motherfuckers offered a so a summary statement, I guess I'm going to. i
01:05:31
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I absolutely did. I said this is the best episode we've ever done, and it's going to have the highest retention rate.
01:05:36
pjasper
ah ah The two things that will stick with me besides we should not do another Eric episode anytime soon Is is that competition ah is a double-edged sword it has good aspects and negative aspects when you take it too far and I love the idea of thinking about a metric being a key cornerstone to be able to derive competition and the third thing is that thinking about being competitive as a developmental process as we age or as we get into something, you know, more early in it versus late into it or early in your life or late in life. So those are those are going to be my sort of big ticket items.
01:06:20
Mary
I think those were all points that Paul made himself.
01:06:23
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah, they they they were.
01:06:23
Mary
that's a
01:06:25
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
They were. um I will also in the and the the competitive person in me also just wants to point out that as far as far as, ah you know, segs and ideas for this show, I'm batting about 750 right now.
01:06:37
Mary
Oh my god.
01:06:42
pjasper
That was a good one.
01:06:44
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You know, like all my segs have all been a home run. ah The idea of the master series was a home run. And I have one bad fucking episode and I'm getting lamb bastard out here.
01:06:52
pjasper
ah
01:06:55
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Okay.
01:06:55
pjasper
No, Eric, Eric, did Eric, the chat GBT roast was a great idea.
01:06:56
Mary
Oh my god.
01:06:56
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
I'm sorry for taking creative risks.
01:07:01
Mary
That was excellent.
01:07:03
pjasper
That was really good.
01:07:04
Mary
um And we should point out that our next episode is imposter syndrome. If people have comments or thoughts, which I know most people should, because I know it's very common, please let us know.
01:07:15
pjasper
Yes.
01:07:15
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah. And we're going to have a, we're going to have a guest on that episode.
01:07:16
pjasper
Yeah, we'll put total imposter.
01:07:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We're not going to reveal who it is because they are. Fucking phenomenal at what they do. And we're going to dive deep into how even they struggle with imposter syndrome after what I believe is 15 to 20 years at the top of their field.
01:07:33
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Total.
01:07:36
pjasper
Okay, with that, I just want to thank our patrons in the last month. Oh my god, we got a bunch in the last month. Chase Soward, Ed Duncan, David Dooyard, who is my chair making mentor and a very, very, yeah, a very close personal friend of mine.
01:07:46
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
What? what works
01:07:49
pjasper
Anthony Czekas, Greg Schroeder, Tanner Gunther, Berlo Thompson, Nathaniel Belgazal, Jono, Robert Piolanti, and Candice P.
01:08:00
pjasper
All of you, I know that's about 10 to 12 of you, we appreciate it.
01:08:03
Mary
Wow, thank you.
01:08:04
pjasper
Yeah, because this is good.
01:08:05
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
You guys are amazing.
01:08:07
pjasper
Yeah, it pay as I said, it pays for our our hosting, but it also gives us a little bit to like buy better mics, buy better equipment, and maybe go out to eat once in a while together.
01:08:18
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Yeah.
01:08:18
Mary
Yeah, get more alcohol on you guys.
01:08:19
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Buy buy better mic so you guys can hear this conversation more clearly.
01:08:25
pjasper
And with that, we will conclude the Eric episode.
01:08:30
Mary
Paul is so relieved right now.
01:08:30
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
yeah we just yeah we can we Can we just title this the Eric Oopsy?
01:08:35
pjasper
Yes.
01:08:37
Mary
Oh my god.
01:08:37
pjasper
ah And for those who want more complete and utter bullshittery, you can join us on the after show, which if you're a patron,
01:08:45
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
Hey Paul, what are we talking about on the after show?
01:08:50
pjasper
uh, I forget.
01:08:51
OOOOOOooooohbabyeriq
We'll see you in the after show. Okay, bye.