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Episode 50 - Art vs. Craft vs. Design ROUND 2: The Rumble in the Jungle (feat. BOTH Konrad & Jack)
1.1k Plays1 day ago
Oh boy, do we have a spicy one tonight. For the first time ever, we have the "Agent of Chaos" Eric Curtis, the "Sexiest Voice in Podcasting" Jack, and the plane-making legend Konrad Sauer all in the same episode at the same time.
We are revisiting one of our most controversial early topics—Art vs. Craft—but this time, we’re tearing down the binary. Konrad argues that we missed a crucial piece of the puzzle: Design. What follows is a philosophical free-for-all about the hats we wear as makers, the tension between feeling and engineering, and why a 1.7-million-year-old hand axe proves we’ve always been obsessed with "getting our faces sat on" (metaphorically... mostly).
From the empathy required to build a chair to the enduring legacy of cave paintings, we break down what it actually means to make "objects of desire" and why the labels might not matter as much as the joy of making.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction to the Podcast
00:00:01
Jack Thomas
You guys, it is so hard not to like blow my metaphorical load right away when we start texting about show ideas. I'm so sorry.
00:00:17
Konrad Sauer
Mm-hmm.
00:00:17
Peace love & Craft
Blicka, blicka, blicka, blow the load. Blicka, blicka, blicka, blow the load.
00:00:20
Jack Thomas
Blow the load.
00:00:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh boy, do we got a spicy one tonight. Here we go again, folks. This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast where we hurt feelings, ask a lot of questions, don't come up with all that many answers.
00:00:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Consider the creative, intellectual, mental, and emotional and philosophical side of what it's like to be a maker, to be an artist, to be a craftsperson, to be a designer. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, a scientist by day, woodworker by night. In the second chair tonight, the agent of chaos, my bestie amigo, compadre, my ride or die, fine furniture maker and content creator, Eric Curtis.
00:01:03
Peace love & Craft
I genuinely hope that this is somebody's first episode, and that's the first thing they've ever heard on Wibs is Jack reading that text from our group text earlier tonight.
00:01:13
Jack Thomas
so
00:01:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In the third chair tonight, artist, art teacher, learning designer, homesteader, block print maker, and the sexiest voice in all of podcasting.
00:01:16
Konrad Sauer
Yikes.
00:01:26
Jack Thomas
You know it.
00:01:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack Thomas, say hello.
00:01:27
Konrad Sauer
true
00:01:28
Jack Thomas
Hello, everybody.
00:01:31
Konrad Sauer
yikes
00:01:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And in the fourth chair tonight, oh, this is good, y'all. Last but certainly not least, he's already smiling.
Guest Introduction: Conrad Sauer
00:01:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have one of the finest thinkers, skeptics, and pontificators,
00:01:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
who loves to blow up my phone every single episode before he actually listens to the episode
00:01:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and just happens to be one of the finest plane makers alive on the earth today, our good buddy, Conrad Sauer. Conrad, thanks for joining us.
00:02:02
Konrad Sauer
Cheers, guys. It's good.
00:02:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so this is this is exciting because you know I know a lot of you have seen Jack, and separately, know a lot of you have seen episodes with Conrad.
00:02:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We've never had them on at the same time. And this to me just feels like a fucking free for all. And I love it.
00:02:21
Konrad Sauer
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:02:24
Peace love & Craft
It's gonna get hot.
00:02:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It already got totally inappropriate before we started recording.
00:02:29
Peace love & Craft
Multiple times.
00:02:30
Jack Thomas
Thank God we weren't recording that.
00:02:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So to begin with, what are y'all drinking tonight? We decided to do a little sharesies. What's everyone drinking? Conrad, what do you got?
00:02:40
Konrad Sauer
a Going double barrel. G&Ts, baby.
00:02:44
Peace love & Craft
Ooh, yeah.
00:02:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Double barrel.
00:02:45
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:02:45
Peace love & Craft
He said, I'm coming prepared.
00:02:46
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. it's ah It is the last gasp of fall right now. And it was like 12 degrees out and sunny. And I thought, fuck it. I'm going go on summertime time drinks right now.
00:02:57
Konrad Sauer
High
00:02:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
00:02:57
Jack Thomas
and can you Can you translate that 12 degrees for us Americans?
00:02:58
Peace love & Craft
Hell yeah. I was going to say, yeah, I don't know. So like that could be 90. It could be 30.
00:03:03
Konrad Sauer
yeah
00:03:03
Peace love & Craft
I have no way to know.
00:03:04
Konrad Sauer
i high fifty s
00:03:07
Peace love & Craft
Okay.
00:03:07
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:03:07
Peace love & Craft
That's a nice crisp fall day.
00:03:08
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:03:10
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it is.
00:03:10
Peace love & Craft
Hell yeah.
00:03:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Conrad, any particular type of gin you like?
00:03:11
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it is.
00:03:14
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, Willowbalds. It's a distillery about half an hour from here. When you all come up, it's a road trip to Willowbalds.
00:03:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nice.
00:03:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:03:21
Peace love & Craft
Hell yeah.
00:03:21
Jack Thomas
Hell yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:03:22
Peace love & Craft
Love me a good gin distillery.
00:03:22
Konrad Sauer
Yep.
00:03:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:03:23
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it's so good.
00:03:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
00:03:27
Peace love & Craft
I'm going beer tonight.
00:03:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Which, what kind?
00:03:30
Peace love & Craft
I got, uh, Sierra Nevada's hoppy little thing. IPA, you know, it, uh, it gets the job done.
00:03:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:03:36
Peace love & Craft
I'll be honest with you. The only reason I'm not drinking whiskey is because I, uh, drank the last of my stash last night. And, um, not the good shit.
00:03:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:03:44
Peace love & Craft
I don't get me wrong. I've got plenty of extra stuff, but you know, this is not a drink the expensive stuff kind of podcast,
Art vs. Craft Debate
00:03:50
Peace love & Craft
you know?
00:03:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think it is.
00:03:51
Peace love & Craft
Woo.
00:03:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Jack.
00:03:54
Jack Thomas
Well, ah speak for yourself because I am drinking the expensive stuff right now. Only the best for you guys.
00:03:57
Konrad Sauer
Nice.
00:03:58
Jack Thomas
Only the best. I have mezcal and tonic with fresh squeezed grapefruit juice tonight. Yep.
00:04:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:04:06
Peace love & Craft
Nothing about that surprises me somehow that feels right for Jack Thomas.
00:04:07
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. o It's delicious. probably Probably literally my favorite base liquor in all of ah creation is Illegal Reposado Mezcal.
00:04:20
Jack Thomas
It's like fine tequila and excellent scotch had a baby and it is fucking delicious. Goes amazing with tonic, with whiskey.
00:04:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:04:28
Jack Thomas
Really you can put it in anything and it just makes it like the most delicious thing you've ever had.
00:04:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like that was a commercial.
00:04:33
Konrad Sauer
Okay. Yeah, you gotta send that all in a text, please.
00:04:34
Jack Thomas
ah They should be paying me to say this.
00:04:35
Peace love & Craft
Honestly.
00:04:39
Peace love & Craft
Yep, yep, yep, yep.
00:04:39
Jack Thomas
Absolutely.
00:04:39
Peace love & Craft
If you could, with with hyperlinks, that'd be great.
00:04:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, for the listeners, that was not an ad.
00:04:42
Jack Thomas
Yep, will do.
00:04:42
Konrad Sauer
Yep.
00:04:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is just pure, unadulterated passion.
00:04:47
Peace love & Craft
Not yet. We're going to get him on the horn.
00:04:49
Jack Thomas
Oh, it's so good.
00:04:49
Peace love & Craft
We're going find out.
00:04:50
Jack Thomas
Mmm.
00:04:50
Peace love & Craft
Paul, are you drinking?
00:04:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm drinking one of my favorite bourbons. It's called Eagle Rare.
00:04:56
Peace love & Craft
Mmm.
00:04:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And a um a customer, after paying for his sushi board and picking it up, decided to give me a bottle out of the generosity of his heart because he loves my stuff.
00:05:05
Jack Thomas
Oh.
00:05:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, dude, you already paid me. And like, like, he's like, it's just a gift. And I was like, oh my God, you're so thoughtful.
00:05:14
Konrad Sauer
That's really cool.
00:05:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:05:15
Peace love & Craft
It's amazing when people do that, man. Like it really is like it it makes you feel loved, you know?
00:05:17
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it is
00:05:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it does.
00:05:20
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:05:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's my boy, James. James, you know who you are.
00:05:22
Peace love & Craft
Big J.
00:05:23
Konrad Sauer
That's, that's awesome.
00:05:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so now that we covered drinks, because someone said, hey, what are y'all drinking? i i recall someone you know asked us to share, so maybe we'll share more often. But tonight is ah first.
00:05:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's the first time Jack and Conrad have been on the show at the same time, which I'm thrilled. They're two of my favorite personalities and favorite thinkers. And to have both of them at the same time, of course, Eric, you're my favorite too, always. That goes without saying.
00:05:48
Peace love & Craft
Thanks, Boo. I appreciate you know my ego is fragile enough that I needed you to articulate that.
00:05:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But the other first tonight is we're taking on a second round of a topic we covered previously. We think it's that important to cover it, but not just repeat it, but extend it. Because I think we realized through reactions, and both Conrad and Jack, you had pretty...
00:06:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um let's say animated reactions to the first version of art versus craft. That was the third episode we ever put out and boy what a reaction did we get.
00:06:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now I'd like to start by reviewing where did we leave off and what were Jack and Conrad's reactions to where we left off. So I listened to the episode again today and we sort of were just taking art on the one hand and craft on the other hand. That was sort of a binary discussion.
00:06:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And i mean, we explored things about pricing and about how they differ from each other. I think we did a pretty good job on art versus craft. However, ah we...
00:06:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't think we really did the topic enough justice. We left off saying, well, art is the why and craft is the how. I mean, in essence, art's about asking questions and craftsmanship and craft is about making the thing, making the traditional thing, utilitarian in essence, right? Whereas art's about expressing and asking questions and challenging perceptions and everything else.
00:07:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so And we're going to talk about whether even that's true today. But what became clear to me is when Conrad started blowing up my phone, he's like, dude, this conversation, it's like art versus craft, but where's design in this? And why are we, why are we saying we're like an artist or craftsperson? We're both like, and so Conrad, you and I started sending feverish voice texts. And i remember I was at the salon. My daughter was getting her hair done and I'm like talking into my phone feverishly and all the the salon people, my daughter's kind of looking at me like, what the fuck are you doing?
00:07:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you, you were essentially saying, hey, I don't know if it's binary like that. I think we change what we are in the context of a single project.
00:08:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Maybe early on we're a designer or an artist, depending on whether there's a problem to be solved or not.
00:08:07
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then after we kind of understand where we think we wanna go, point ourselves, then we become the craftsperson and we take a step and we don't finish the piece because then we have to stand back and be like, hmm, how did that work out? you're back in the role of the artist, back in the role of the designer. So ah Conrad, and I'll let, you know, we can talk about this and develop it, but it was more like, not only is it not binary, it's there's like three categories.
00:08:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But we wear these hats interchangeably throughout time, even with within one project. That was your take. Now, Jack, you published a series of reaction videos to our first episode, and I'll let you kind of summarize like what your take was of your reaction videos.
00:09:00
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah. i am I published six really short reels as reaction videos. And I think that the first and the last one were just kind of you you know bookends. But the the four things that I really touched on in art versus craft, and and by the way, I don't think it's a binary either, art versus craft versus design, any of it.
00:09:19
Jack Thomas
The four things I touched on were ah feeling versus engineering, the binary between feeling and engineering, ah function versus decor, art mediums versus craft mediums and the relationship um with the audience. you know Does what you're making actually take the audience into account as you're making it at all?
00:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God. Okay. All right.
00:09:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:09:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but We're going to come back. I know all of us are like ah chomping at the bit to blow our our philosophical loads.
00:09:47
Peace love & Craft
I was going to say, Paul, I saw those eyes go wide like you did just a little bit.
00:09:49
Jack Thomas
Blow it.
00:09:52
Peace love & Craft
Just a little bit.
00:09:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Like all of us are like twitching to say something. Okay. Okay. Jack, I think we're going to get to those. I think let's take each of those, each four of those and dissect them. But Conrad, can you start first with this idea that we we have multiple hats on through even one project?
00:10:11
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, i mean, there's there's a lot of hats. I mean, especially because we are all, most of us are I think for the most part, solo makers, like we're not, we don't have an army of people. And so we are having to switch hats constantly.
00:10:26
Konrad Sauer
And if you want to get, you know, really big picture with it, there's also a business owner hat. There's, i mean, there's, there's a lot of other hats on top of it, but switching between, um you know, an artist versus designer versus a maker, like even like on it, even not even in an entire project, even on like,
00:10:46
Konrad Sauer
half in half an hour, you're often switching back and forth between those so fast that it gets really blurry.
00:10:49
Peace love & Craft
sorry.
00:10:54
Konrad Sauer
And those, yeah, I'm not even sure that I can even, or I often make the distinction. I mean, there are certainly times where you're working on something very specifically that would be, you know, considered craft, the technical execution of it or something.
00:11:08
Konrad Sauer
um But the design process, like at least the way that I, um, you take advantage of or use design is um I'm designing as I'm making the thing.
00:11:21
Konrad Sauer
And so that hat is just always kind of there as well. And so you're, you're, you're constantly, I'm constantly flipping back and forth between them and yeah, very rarely can kind of make a distinction. mean, I can look back on it and think, yeah, I was doing all these different things, but um it's pretty rapid fire. So the, the one versus the other versus the other um it's just all of them.
00:11:43
Konrad Sauer
It's just a big mashup.
00:11:44
Peace love & Craft
So Conrad, i I'm trying to understand how you're differentiating between the artist and the designer in your workflow.
00:11:54
Konrad Sauer
Um, yeah, that's a really good question. I came into design through a love of art. So when I was in high school was trying to figure out what do I do with this, you know, interest, need, desire to draw, paint, sculpt, and didn't want to go to fine art school because I thought I actually want to have some, some cash. I want to make some money like to keep my head above water, basically.
00:12:19
Konrad Sauer
right So thought I'm going to go into the design side of things because that checks maybe enough of those boxes and it seemed like a more viable career path at the time.
00:12:29
Peace love & Craft
But but what is the what's the differentiation between those two?
00:12:30
Konrad Sauer
So...
00:12:33
Peace love & Craft
like Is one commercial versus one is like private expression? Is one solving a problem for a client versus like simply making ornamental objects?
00:12:44
Peace love & Craft
like how what is
00:12:46
Konrad Sauer
ah Well...
00:12:46
Peace love & Craft
What's the clear delineation there?
00:12:48
Konrad Sauer
I don't think there is. I've actually never really had one because even even just doing something that is pure art, so doing a painting, I'm still asking a lot of the same kinds of questions like, okay, what what do i how do I want this to be perceived? How am I going to use?
00:13:05
Konrad Sauer
That is awesome.
00:13:08
Peace love & Craft
Amazing.
00:13:09
Konrad Sauer
that is awesome
00:13:10
Jack Thomas
That's amazing.
00:13:12
Konrad Sauer
ah Sorry, big bottle just entered.
00:13:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah big
00:13:16
Peace love & Craft
Just bourbon just appeared from the heavens.
00:13:17
Konrad Sauer
One of the... be be a bourbon Bourbon just showed up.
00:13:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah A bottle as big as my head just entered the room.
00:13:22
Konrad Sauer
Oh my God, that is huge.
00:13:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Sorry, Conrad, back to it.
00:13:26
Konrad Sauer
Sorry, yeah, it's okay.
00:13:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry.
00:13:27
Konrad Sauer
um Yeah, I... I lost my train of thought. um
00:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was artist versus, I think it was artist versus designer.
00:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what's your distinction for yourself at the time? Like you made a clear decision.
00:13:35
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:13:39
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, I'm still... Yeah, I'm still problem solving the same way, whether I'm doing something more art based, if I'm doing a painting, I'm still aware of white space. I'm still aware of all of the things that I was taught as a designer, but I'm not solving a problem for somebody else, but I'm solving it because it's not ah it's not a commission piece, but I'm solving it for myself. i'm still There is still some you know a problem, quote unquote, that I'm trying to solve, even if it's just purely art based.
00:14:06
Peace love & Craft
So is that is that the delineation then is like it does a designer solve other people's problems versus an artist is trying to solve a problem for themselves, even if it's a commission, like they're still being commissioned to find their own artistic voice versus a designer is trying to match a company's, you know, visual identity.
00:14:27
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, my experience with being a designer was usually there were parameters to ah any given project. And those parameters usually weren't ones that the designer or established. They came at us from a client or a customer.
00:14:43
Konrad Sauer
So whether it was a business, whether it was an individual, they gave us the box that we had to, within the confines of that box, figure out how to...
00:14:55
Konrad Sauer
well, actually figure out what what they actually wanted because oftentimes they don't know.
00:14:59
Peace love & Craft
Mmm, yep.
00:15:00
Konrad Sauer
um That happens through interviewing processes, getting to know them, you know research, all that kind of stuff. um And then you know once you have a sense of that, then you can try and figure out how to creatively work within those confines.
00:15:13
Konrad Sauer
But doing ah an art piece there's a lot of, I think there's a lot of similarity. You're still, you still have confines. You're, you are often limited to a space, right? Whether it's a gigantic sculpture that you're doing, you still have some parameter limits of how big you can make something or canvas, how big's the canvas or what material, how much material do you have access to?
00:15:34
Konrad Sauer
So you still have parameters that you have to work within, but I think the focus with a, on the design side is usually somebody else's parameters and your problem solving for them.
00:15:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And trying to make them happy, right?
00:15:45
Konrad Sauer
But I, yeah oh Yeah, that's right.
00:15:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're trying to please.
00:15:48
Konrad Sauer
i' Ultimately, yeah ultimately they're they're your client.
00:15:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:15:49
Peace love & Craft
Well, a lot of artists do that too, right?
00:15:52
Konrad Sauer
Sure.
00:15:52
Peace love & Craft
a lot of artists are just trying to paint for the gallery, for the clientele that are going to buy their work, for the people.
00:15:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
00:15:59
Peace love & Craft
like They don't want to take new creative risks because they've already established a voice and they're afraid if they veer too far off of that, their work isn't going to sell. So I feel like there's still a lot of those same problems.
00:16:09
Peace love & Craft
I'm just trying to get at, like is it is it is it a differentiation of medium?
00:16:10
Konrad Sauer
Sure. Yeah, no, for sure there are.
00:16:15
Peace love & Craft
You know, like is is, is somebody painting never a designer, even if they're painting logos, but now they're an artist because they're using paint.
00:16:17
Konrad Sauer
I don't, I don't.
00:16:22
Konrad Sauer
No, I material, materials material, like it doesn't make any difference. What, what medium you, I don't think what medium you work in, you're still coming, you're still trying to figure out a way how to creatively express something.
00:16:34
Konrad Sauer
So, you know, if I, if I do personal artwork for myself,
00:16:34
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:16:38
Konrad Sauer
Ultimately, I want to be able to sit back and look at and go, damn, that's pretty good. Like it, it, it, it appeals to me. i like the way it looks. It checked whatever the boxes were that I kind of laid out for myself when I started it.
00:16:50
Konrad Sauer
That's, that's not that different than what a designer goes through.
00:16:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right. So Conrad, what's new about that answer that I'd never thought of before is we always say, well, designers solve problems. That's what designers do. The customer comes in, gives them a problem, they solve it and they get paid and they
Roles in Creation: Artist, Designer, Craftsperson
00:17:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
go on their merry way. Great.
00:17:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But the point, I guess the new piece of information that I never considered is that artists are also solving problems that
00:17:14
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
00:17:16
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, I think they are.
00:17:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's just a little more quiet. you know They may be solving a problem of space or scale or or audience. That's interesting. I'd never considered that.
00:17:27
Jack Thomas
I would have to say the question of of solving the problem, for the artist at least, is is who you're solving the problem for and whether the problem is like resolved in one piece or if it's a problem that you are pursuing consistently, like throughout a whole body of work throughout your whole life, right?
00:17:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, what...
00:17:46
Jack Thomas
Like to me, the this triad of of artist and designer and craftsperson This is a vast oversimplification, but when I think about it, I think the artist is going, look at this idea, and the designer is going, look at the solution, and the craftsperson is going, look at this object, if that makes sense.
00:18:08
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:18:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, say that again. Sorry, again.
00:18:10
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:18:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do that again.
00:18:11
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:18:11
Jack Thomas
Like the the artist the artist is saying, look at this idea.
00:18:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Idea.
00:18:15
Jack Thomas
And the designer is saying, look at this solution.
00:18:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:18:19
Jack Thomas
And the craftsperson is saying, look at this object. But every single person is all three.
00:18:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:18:26
Jack Thomas
And that's where I really agree with Conrad, because it's like you shift from one to the other throughout the phases of... thinking about a thing, of designing the thing in your mind, and then actually making the thing.
00:18:34
Konrad Sauer
yeah
00:18:38
Jack Thomas
And if you don't actually pass through all three of those phases, then chances are pretty good that whatever comes out on the other end of that is going to kind of blow. In my humble but correct opinion.
00:18:47
Konrad Sauer
and And not in a good way.
00:18:49
Peace love & Craft
That's that's that's a and's a really interesting way to phrase that.
00:18:49
Jack Thomas
Not in a good way. Blow in a bad way.
00:18:51
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:18:51
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:18:57
Peace love & Craft
i like Those are the most archetypal, most extreme examples of those three, right?
00:19:04
Jack Thomas
Yep, yep.
00:19:04
Peace love & Craft
um And the way you were describing it, i was kind of seeing it like three points of a triangle. Whereas before that, i was as I was trying to place designer in the context. Like if it is a scale, right?
00:19:17
Peace love & Craft
um and you've got either end of the extreme, like what is the closest thing to the middle? Which two are on the extremes? And I think I'm thinking that the craftsperson has one end of the extreme in that, again, using these archetypal examples, they're not thinking about design, they're fabricators, right?
00:19:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:19:26
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:19:37
Peace love & Craft
And then on the other end of the extreme is you have the designer who comes up with a solution and then hands it off to the fabricator.
00:19:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:19:45
Peace love & Craft
most i think in in our broader cultural definition of designer part of the definition is the person doesn't fabricate they design they there is a distinct uh separation of skills there and then the artist even though we love to shit on artists right now because like you know modern art and conceptual art and like selling the idea and all of that's fair and true but most artists
00:19:46
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:19:54
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:19:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:20:10
Peace love & Craft
still come up with the idea and then have to develop some level of craftsmanship, whether it's low or high, to articulate that idea. So on this scale, I feel like they're kind of falling in the middle.
00:20:22
Jack Thomas
Before you explained it, I was going to just disagree with you. But now that you've said that, I think I actually do agree with you.
00:20:26
Peace love & Craft
Well, please disagree with me if I'm wrong.
00:20:26
Jack Thomas
Oh, I will.
00:20:27
Peace love & Craft
Like, you know, like I'm trying.
00:20:28
Jack Thomas
Don't worry.
00:20:30
Konrad Sauer
Mm-hmm.
00:20:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I think one of you is suggested that the three things design art and craft were like three circles of a Venn diagram. And there's some overlap, you know, people overlap more or less like bold, like I'm a bold Turner. I'm a production bold Turner.
00:20:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're mostly in the craftsman part of that event diagram for those that don't know of like three circles right. That overlap in the center of this, you know, part to partial. And then in those regions that overlap, you could have two circles overlapping or all three. And we, we like to think about, you know, these overlap zones is such, know, anyway, that's what a Venn diagram is.
00:21:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so like ah a production bowl Turner is obviously in the craft, you know, almost squarely in the craft part. um A designer.
00:21:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I guess if you're at ah in a design firm,
00:21:23
Peace love & Craft
Well, like I'm i'm thinking, i and I might have a biased opinion on this because of the cabinet shops I've worked in, the designers are separate from the fabricators always, right?
00:21:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you're You're mostly design?
00:21:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. but then But then I think we're talking about us, like the the four of us. Like we are ah all of those things probably at different times.
00:21:41
Peace love & Craft
Sure.
00:21:42
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:42
Peace love & Craft
I'm just trying to place the most extreme examples because we know that we're all like muddied in the middle somewhere.
00:21:43
Jack Thomas
Yeah, for sure.
00:21:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. no No, it's good. It's good. It's good. Yeah.
00:21:48
Peace love & Craft
And if we just start in the mud, we never get out of it, you know?
00:21:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So before we go to some of Jack's really, Jack, you have different axes, but but like before I go into those, and I think they're super interesting. and There was a question that came up. ah Does good art have to have good craftsmanship as part of it?
00:22:09
Jack Thomas
Okay. been This is about as simple as I can make this answer.
00:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-oh. Oh!
00:22:13
Peace love & Craft
She said, the gloves are coming off right now.
00:22:16
Jack Thomas
The gloves are coming off.
00:22:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
00:22:18
Jack Thomas
um ah The answer I think is that something can ah something can be called quote unquote good art by the market. take that for what you will, and still have poor craftsmanship.
00:22:33
Jack Thomas
However, i don't think it's going to be good. I do not think it's good art if it is not well-crafted. And it definitely, definitely is not going to be enduring art if it's not well-crafted.
00:22:44
Peace love & Craft
Mmm.
00:22:46
Jack Thomas
And I think it's really important to place that emphasis on the word enduring because something that is like, quote unquote, good in the moment isn't really good. It's just popular right then.
00:22:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
banana on a wall Banana duct tape to the wall?
00:22:58
Jack Thomas
Exactly, exactly.
00:22:59
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:23:00
Jack Thomas
Like, some people make art for other people. And some people make art for history books. And some people make art for money. And some people do all three or a combination of those two. And most people don't even think about it.
00:23:12
Jack Thomas
But at the end of the day, like, okay, have you ever heard of zombie formalism? Yeah, probably not.
00:23:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:23:19
Jack Thomas
Of course not.
00:23:20
Peace love & Craft
carry on I'm so intrigued right now.
00:23:21
Jack Thomas
Yeah. No, I'm not going to because it's not even worth talking about, um like at least in the context of this episode. But... Think about, okay, imagine imagine for a moment, ah close your eyes and just imagine that somebody took a a fucking fire extinguisher and filled it with some paint and then sprayed it onto a canvas.
00:23:42
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:23:42
Jack Thomas
And then somehow it got into a blue chip gallery like David's Werner, right? And i I think the kid, the kidny is a kid who's like the peak of zombie formalism is is Julian Smith. And this is probably like ah five five or eight years ago.
00:23:57
Jack Thomas
That art might be quote unquote good. It might be aesthetically pleasing. It might be popular in this moment, but it's not enduring. You haven't heard of Julian Smith, but you've heard of Leonardo da Vinci, right?
00:24:10
Jack Thomas
And to me, good art, if something is really good, it's going to endure the test of time. And it can't endure the test of time if it can't literally physically stick around to endure the test of time.
00:24:24
Peace love & Craft
Mmm, that's a fair point.
00:24:24
Jack Thomas
So, so not only do the ideas have to be enduring, but the craftsmanship of that thing has to be enduring. And if not, it's going to be a cultural flash in the pan.
00:24:35
Jack Thomas
And it's, it's just, it's not going to be around to influence how we think about art and craft and design. So yeah, I see, I see a lot of art.
00:24:42
Peace love & Craft
That's...
00:24:44
Jack Thomas
I have seen a lot of art from, you know, the grad students I've taught, undergrad students I've taught. where the idea is good, the idea is great, but it feels like it's being made by someone who's afraid to stick their neck out there and just call themselves a philosopher or a writer.
00:25:01
Jack Thomas
And so they try to package those ideas in art, but they're not actually good craftspeople. And so they're like half-assed philosophers and also half-assed craftspeople, and that does not an artist make.
00:25:12
Peace love & Craft
I mean, as a half-assed philosopher, at least I can cut some fucking dovetails.
00:25:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha
00:25:18
Peace love & Craft
I've got that going for me, at least.
00:25:19
Jack Thomas
I think that you're at least a seven-eighths ass philosopher.
00:25:22
Peace love & Craft
At least, least depending on how many bourbons I've had.
00:25:23
Konrad Sauer
you
00:25:24
Jack Thomas
And your dovetails are amazing. ah Depending. It gets better with every bourbon.
00:25:27
Peace love & Craft
um i will will say, i was thinking about, like, I think I was thinking about the exact same thing last night. and And tell me if I'm misunderstanding what you were saying, but I'm going to try to put it in a different context.
00:25:41
Peace love & Craft
I was thinking about my work. I was thinking about the last video I just put out with this cabinet, and it took fucking weeks and and all of the emotional way behind it and whatnot um and i was thinking about some of the people in my space who are far more successful they have a much broader audience they're making more money um and and literally the the words that were in my head last night is i don't want to make cool shit i want to make good shit
00:26:11
Jack Thomas
Mmm. a
00:26:12
Peace love & Craft
You know, and like that's that ultimately if I wanted to make more money on YouTube, I could just make cool shit.
00:26:13
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:26:19
Peace love & Craft
But I think to the point that you were just making is a I don't think those will physically be around for all that long because they're often not well crafted or they're made in such a rush because turnover that they don't have the opportunity to be made in a lasting way.
00:26:34
Peace love & Craft
um And I think just culturally, they don't. Like bubblegum pop is fine. I'm not making a judgment on bubblegum pop, but it, it, it fades when the summer is gone, you know, versus an enduring hit.
00:26:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does.
00:26:47
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:26:47
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:26:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Almost never to return.
00:26:49
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:26:49
Jack Thomas
Yeah. ye Yeah. There's you. You want to be Leonardo da Vinci, not Mr. Beast. And if anybody's going to fault you for that, then fuck them.
00:26:57
Peace love & Craft
What, what, what a spectrum like that is.
00:26:59
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:27:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:27:04
Konrad Sauer
That's the range right there.
00:27:05
Peace love & Craft
That's the range. Yeah.
00:27:05
Konrad Sauer
Huh. Huh.
00:27:09
Peace love & Craft
One of them died poor, I'll let you guess which one.
00:27:09
Konrad Sauer
huh
Craftsmanship and Cultural Legacy
00:27:11
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:27:11
Peace love & Craft
um
00:27:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Wow.
00:27:14
Konrad Sauer
hu
00:27:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Yeah. Conrad, any thoughts on that?
00:27:20
Konrad Sauer
No, that really resonates actually. that that makes i think that fits really well. No, it's great.
00:27:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I think we're all of in agreement with that. um All right, Jack. So you published a series of reaction videos ah and you talked about art versus craft, but not in that axis.
00:27:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're talking about it on other axes. Feeling versus engineering was your first and that sort of parallel art versus craft, but they're in separate, they're in separate dimensions.
00:27:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So could you, could you go through those again, maybe take you one at a time. So what was the first one you mentioned feeling versus engineering?
00:28:00
Jack Thomas
Yeah, feeling versus engineering was the first one. But I've got to say, when I made those reaction videos, design was not part of the conversation, right? We have this like third axis now.
00:28:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:28:13
Jack Thomas
ah
00:28:14
Jack Thomas
So that that wasn't part of it. Okay, but feeling feeling feeling versus engineering, the way that I would kind of summarize this is like, craft does something, and art feels something.
00:28:27
Jack Thomas
and makes you feel something. Art gives you an emotion, or at least gives you space for an emotion, pushes you pushes you towards a feeling. And craft does something for you, right? It engineers a solution.
00:28:40
Jack Thomas
And um i again, I don't think that it has to be totally either or. But when we think about these big cultural, you know, archetypes, um there, I can't remember who said this, but someone, someone had this quote that was like,
00:28:54
Jack Thomas
sculpture is what you back up into when you're looking at a painting. And I almost, like which is so fucking true.
00:29:02
Peace love & Craft
That sucks so hard because it's accurate.
00:29:05
Jack Thomas
It's accurate. i'll I'll tell you guys about my my traumatic visit to MoMA sometime um ah along along that those lines. But anyway, ah for for now, like just to say, like craft craft is something that craft is something that you can sit on.
00:29:21
Jack Thomas
We're not going to revisit the the conversation we had before we started recording.
00:29:23
Peace love & Craft
she
00:29:24
Konrad Sauer
Ha ha ha ha
00:29:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, we will not.
00:29:25
Jack Thomas
but But craft is something you can sit on.
00:29:29
Peace love & Craft
Couple of strong jawlines in this room.
00:29:35
Jack Thomas
so If the audience is confused right now, I apologize. If you're not, you know what I'm talking about. um And then art is something that you that you look at and that it it helps you to understand something.
00:29:47
Jack Thomas
It gives you space to have a feeling. It beckons a question, right?
00:29:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:29:50
Jack Thomas
And craft doesn't necessarily do that.
00:29:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack. that that There is no doubt I agree with that in ah in a foot view. I mean, totally.
00:29:58
Jack Thomas
Sure. Sure.
00:29:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's like a no brainer. Like that makes sense. But I think what you're going to get are those those people in the comment section who's like, whoa, a really good crafted thing makes me feel something.
00:30:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And yes, yes, it does.
00:30:11
Jack Thomas
Yep. And they're right. Yeah.
00:30:13
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, because you're a fucking nerd.
00:30:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, it does. Ha ha ha ha
00:30:15
Peace love & Craft
That's why.
00:30:16
Jack Thomas
Nerd. Sure.
00:30:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they're also going to say that art has function. It's to bring joy to the human race. You know, that's its function. So, I mean, look, I'm trying to head the skeptics off of the past.
00:30:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think, you know, when you paint in broad strokes, yes, anyone can always find the caveat. And I think those are the caveats that i mentioned.
00:30:40
Jack Thomas
sure
00:30:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I think in in broad strokes, that that access is is probably correct most of the time.
00:30:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:30:48
Peace love & Craft
Are are those caveats or those just so far into either end of that spectrum that they start to loop back around on one another?
00:30:57
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:30:58
Peace love & Craft
You know, like, is it a flat universe situation?
00:31:01
Konrad Sauer
No, I don't think so.
00:31:02
Peace love & Craft
No.
00:31:05
Konrad Sauer
Again, i think it can be both. like Both of those things often happen within the same. It's like switching hats again. like you
00:31:14
Peace love & Craft
Right. So I guess what I'm saying is I think axis ah or the axes that Jack was painting with was a good visual for me. So we're we're thinking this is like a linear graph versus what I'm saying is, is it is it a flat circle where you go so far, you become such a brilliant craftsperson or such a skilled artist that it comes back around where they become the same on the other side?
00:31:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that it comes back around to art.
00:31:35
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:31:39
Jack Thomas
I think that that might kind of get into um the relationship with the audience or ah the relationship with the audience or or even really just the context of where it's at, right?
00:31:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interesting.
00:31:49
Jack Thomas
like
00:31:50
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:31:51
Jack Thomas
And this this might be like a fifth axis that i probably should have talked about you know in the in the first series of reels, but... So like where something is placed literally physically, environmentally, and the intent it's placed with, I think has a big thing to do about it.
00:32:06
Jack Thomas
and And you guys know this because sometimes there are shows of craft that are in these like highfalutin galleries, right?
00:32:14
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
00:32:15
Jack Thomas
And they can be really fucking hard to get into. Sometimes it's all about who you know and not even how well the piece is made. Same shit happens to artists. the The prime example I think of when I think about this is this artist Joseph Beuys, B-E-U-Y-S.
00:32:30
Jack Thomas
He's no longer with us. um But he was a German artist, and one of his most famous arcs of work are these sleds, like literally these beautifully crafted wooden sleds, like you might put behind a ye olde Iditarod dog team or something, right?
00:32:53
Jack Thomas
But he put them in museums and they were staged with other like symbolic materials like felt and animal fat. And there's a whole like mythology there. It's way too much to get into right now.
00:33:08
Jack Thomas
But that object, which might otherwise be a functional object of craft, became art just because of its context. it what The piece didn't even necessarily change. Just a sled in the museum and now it's art.
00:33:22
Jack Thomas
Does that make a flat universe situation?
00:33:25
Peace love & Craft
I think like the Nakajima Museum or or compound would be another example of that, like on the ah coming from the other end, but meeting back around the other side where like,
00:33:37
Peace love & Craft
George Nakasima's house was just his house and it's beautiful and it's well designed and and everything in it is well crafted, but it was just a house until he died and it became a museum.
00:33:48
Peace love & Craft
And now those objects are venerated as though they are like the closest thing that we in the woodcraft have to high art, where in fact it's just a fucking table.
00:33:55
Jack Thomas
two
00:33:58
Peace love & Craft
It's a good table. I'm not trying to shit on George or, or, you know, any of the Nakashima family, um but it's just a fucking table, but it's placement in the Nakashima household elevates it to something other than.
00:34:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's also part of a legacy, but yeah, yeah.
00:34:11
Jack Thomas
Okay, so... Well...
00:34:13
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, well, and that's the same thing that Jack was just saying.
00:34:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:15
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:34:15
Jack Thomas
the the like The legacy thing brings me to another question, which is like...
00:34:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, legacy.
00:34:20
Jack Thomas
What is the role of the artist? And I think that that helps answer a lot of things. So to me, in my brain, I think that the role of the artist, even if we don't think about it, is to be a symbolic historian.
00:34:33
Jack Thomas
Every single thing that we make in our own time of life represents like the shit that we're seeing, the things that we're going through, the cultural conditions that we're in And so inadvertently, we end up being these symbolic historians for what's going on in our own times.
00:34:51
Jack Thomas
I think that craftspeople are doing the same thing. It's just from a different angle, right? A different perspective. So like the Nakashima table, like Does that table somehow represent like a sign of the times that he was living in?
00:35:06
Jack Thomas
And so its legacy is what makes it art in retrospect.
00:35:11
Peace love & Craft
okay allow me to push back on you because because i i don't disagree with anything you just said but if that's the case if that's the criteria
00:35:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. Wow.
00:35:14
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
00:35:21
Peace love & Craft
then the people who are making art and art objects that will disappear in the next 10 to 15 years are perfectly encapsulating a moment in time in our culture where everything is forgotten five minutes later.
00:35:34
Jack Thomas
a
00:35:37
Peace love & Craft
So what's the point of making something that lasts 20, 30, 100, 200 years? LAUGHTER two hundred years
00:35:42
Jack Thomas
dog I'm gonna have to like smoke a jay later and get and think about that dude you are so right
00:35:46
Konrad Sauer
Ha ha ha ha
00:35:50
Peace love & Craft
Like, what what is more dissonant with our current culture at this moment than trying to make an object that lasts 500 years? Like, it's ridiculous.
00:36:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, Eric.
00:36:03
Jack Thomas
I feel like I'm high just thinking about that.
00:36:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jeez, y'all, I'm already mind fucked and we're only need a half hour into the episode. Wait, wait, wait, Jack. Jack, wait. at First, I want to take Jack's point of view. And then, Jack, I want to get to your next axis.
00:36:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We are, in essence, I love this point. We are, in essence, capturing moments of history as artists by asking the question or or doing whatever we do as part of our art.
00:36:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm trying to think if that's true, like for me, i mean, and not not that it's true. I think it is true, but I'm trying to think like Conrad, Eric, have you like,
00:36:43
Peace love & Craft
I don't, well, I don't think it's a conscious thing. I think you just make things and because you exist in your culture and in your time, it's a reflection on your experience in that culture.
00:36:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
kit kit
00:36:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
kit
00:36:51
Jack Thomas
Yeah, you can't help it.
00:36:53
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:36:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
can you, can you see that in your work overtly?
00:36:59
Peace love & Craft
I mean, I think to some extent, like you and i both work in furniture. um And in my experience as a furniture maker is different from yours.
00:37:12
Peace love & Craft
And so like we just with the with the cabinet, like the the critique of that cabinet that that one guy sent was just like, oh, there are no dovetails.
00:37:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:37:22
Peace love & Craft
And it's like, well, yeah, I don't fucking want to cut dovetails. I have no interest in cutting dovetails. And I think that they're inappropriate for that cabinet. And if I wanted to spend an extra six months on this fucking cabinet, maybe I would have designed it differently. But I got a fucking mortgage to pay.
00:37:37
Peace love & Craft
Right. And that's like, that's, that's indicative of, of the YouTube era, you know, like I got that or, you know, to some extent, or just running a business and in, in a place where you got to turn shit over.
00:37:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the pressures of... Oh, very good. Yeah, very good. I see it.
00:37:45
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Hmm.
00:37:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see it.
00:37:49
Peace love & Craft
Whereas your approach is different because your experience in the culture is different.
00:37:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, I, lately what I've been doing is taking what's old and trying to reimagine it. And then maybe that is a sign of the times because I'm reaching back to the 1700s, late 1600s, early 1700s and taking inspiration from that and remixing it with a more modern.
00:38:00
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:38:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead. Yeah.
00:38:11
Peace love & Craft
I also think that that is indicative of the the area of the country in which you live. I think if you lived in California, it'd be a different vibe altogether.
00:38:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do.
00:38:21
Peace love & Craft
You'd be pulling different things, you know?
00:38:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're right.
00:38:22
Jack Thomas
Oh.
00:38:23
Konrad Sauer
Hmm.
00:38:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because New England is very, New England is like classic history, colonial.
00:38:24
Peace love & Craft
So in that way, you're linked to to culture. you're Yeah.
00:38:29
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:38:29
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:38:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I see all that furniture around me, all those colonial homes.
00:38:31
Peace love & Craft
Yeah. If you lived in the Southwest, you'd be pulling different influences.
00:38:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's, oh dude, I'd be in Mesquite making like pew. yeah
00:38:39
Peace love & Craft
so I don't know what that is, but I want you to make it now.
00:38:43
Jack Thomas
It sounds like the Southwestern equivalent of a river table, whatever it is. i don't like it.
00:38:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, Jack, that is a great point. that Man, I'm going to be thinking about that one, that we write the history of our time within our art. Dude, ah you you know, Jack,
00:38:58
Jack Thomas
it's true It's true for design too, though.
00:39:00
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:39:00
Jack Thomas
You know, I mean, like I think about like fonts, like think about fonts that came out in the Bauhaus era, like Bauhaus era.
00:39:05
Peace love & Craft
Oh, go on. I know nothing about this.
00:39:07
Jack Thomas
Oh, well, I won't go on for too long about it. Don't worry. but but
00:39:09
Peace love & Craft
No, please do.
00:39:10
Jack Thomas
Bauhaus era fonts, ah that this was the the beginning of like sans serif. printing, right?
00:39:17
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:39:17
Jack Thomas
And so people are like, all right, dog, we are going to really lean into this like industrial mechanization. We want efficiency. We want smoothness. We want some like space age shit and and predating that. And so we want things to be slick and efficient and boom, sans serif fonts, right? Like they didn't have that whole thought process to get to that thing.
00:39:39
Jack Thomas
They came out with Helvetica, aka the Swedish miracle font. And And it represented the times, you know, and so I think that we're all kind of doing it subconsciously. Now, that's not to say that like some fucking, I don't know, CNC carve Pokemon Christmas ornaments are art because it's a sign of the times.
00:40:02
Jack Thomas
But it's still a relevant conversation to have, I think.
00:40:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit. That was just, you know, Jack, you know what? When I, I love when you drop these fucking thought bombs on me in the episode, that's your first one. Well done. right. What's your next access?
00:40:17
Jack Thomas
Ooh, okay, let's see here. we did we We talked about feeling versus engineering, and ah we touched on relationship with the audience, but more like in terms of you know putting something in a museum and therefore it's art.
00:40:29
Jack Thomas
I want to talk about the relationship with the audience in terms of empathy, and I really think that Conrad is is going to have a lot to say about this.
00:40:35
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:40:36
Jack Thomas
But first, let me let me set the stage. Close close your eyes for a second. I want you to imagine... A grad school classroom. It's full of people who are in the final year of their MFA.
00:40:49
Jack Thomas
But in this classroom, there are fine art MFAs and then there are design MFAs lumped into the same class. And the class is thesis writing.
00:40:59
Jack Thomas
It's how to craft your thesis. We're going work on this together. On one day in this classroom, people are nearly coming to fucking open-handed powder palm bitch slap blows.
00:41:15
Jack Thomas
over critiquing art versus design and how to write a thesis for art versus design. All the fine artists are, some are photographers, some are printmakers, some are sculptors.
00:41:26
Jack Thomas
On the design side, you have graphic designers, interior designers, and we are about to come to fucking blows over how to craft a thesis. Craig Drennan, brilliant painter, probably one of the world's most famous living painters,
00:41:41
Jack Thomas
Steps in the middle of us and is basically like, children, children, sit the fuck down. Let's talk about why these things are so different. And he says, i will never forget this. He said, here's the fundamental difference and why you two groups keep fighting.
00:41:54
Jack Thomas
It is because designers have empathy for the end user of their work and artists have none.
00:42:07
Jack Thomas
And the room was just fucking silent, right?
00:42:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god!
00:42:11
Jack Thomas
And then he was like, class dismissed.
00:42:15
Peace love & Craft
It's like go out in the streets and ship one another.
00:42:15
Konrad Sauer
Wow.
00:42:17
Jack Thomas
Exactly. except Don't do it in the classroom. There's too much blood to clean up.
00:42:20
Konrad Sauer
you could
00:42:20
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:20
Jack Thomas
Go outside. Right. Exactly. And i I think I just walked in a daze back to my studio and sat there and thought about that for hours.
00:42:25
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:42:29
Jack Thomas
I don't know that I 100%, 100% agree with it
00:42:34
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:42:34
Jack Thomas
Because I think that commercialism and the consciousness of capitalism and commercialism have tainted somewhat that thing. But it's been it's been tainted since the first time an artist ever took a commission in history, frankly.
00:42:47
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
00:42:47
Jack Thomas
So let's not romanticize that shit.
00:42:47
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
00:42:49
Jack Thomas
Like the Mona Lisa we think of as the pinnacle of art. It was a fucking commission, dog. Like, you know, come on.
00:42:54
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:42:55
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:42:55
Jack Thomas
um Beautiful, but still a commission. So I think, however, the relationship between empathy for the end user is different in art versus craft versus design.
00:43:07
Jack Thomas
And I'm actually curious to hear where y'all think craft falls on that. Because it feels like the designer who's in like a design firm, right? Maybe a graphic designer, an interior designer is like, all right, I have my style. I have my thoughts. I have my likes and dislikes. But I am doing this for a client.
00:43:22
Jack Thomas
And at the end of the day, they get to say yes or no. Whereas as an artist, I might be like... damn, there's this ah you know jury museum show that's coming up. I really want to get into this show. I know who the juror is.
00:43:35
Jack Thomas
So that's in the back of my mind, but I'm not going to make my art differently to try to please this person. My art is my art.
00:43:41
Peace love & Craft
d
00:43:41
Jack Thomas
So where does craft fall on that?
00:43:43
Peace love & Craft
Do you think that's true, though? Like, if that's a show you really want to get into, like, you might, even if it's subconscious, like, yeah.
00:43:50
Jack Thomas
Oh, I think people do it subconsciously all the time.
00:43:52
Peace love & Craft
yeah So there's a thing that just happens where you're just like, ah, a brushstroke changes, a color changes because you know X will like it.
00:43:53
Jack Thomas
And I think that, yeah. Yeah.
00:43:58
Jack Thomas
Yep. Yep. That's why I give a hard and fast rule to to any of my students where it's like, if you are submitting something to a show, it can't be a piece of work that you're making for that show.
00:44:10
Jack Thomas
Like the second you do that, you start to compromise your own like creative integrity because subconsciously you might be making something for that juror, right? You need to submit something that you've already made.
00:44:20
Konrad Sauer
so You're selling out. You're selling out.
00:44:20
Jack Thomas
So where does craft fall on that?
00:44:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah, exactly.
00:44:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's what that is.
00:44:23
Jack Thomas
Exactly.
00:44:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Conrad, empathy.
00:44:24
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:44:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell tell me
00:44:32
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, I, that, man, that, I'm gonna have to think about that one for at least, at least eight months. Um,
00:44:43
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. I, I, I like, as um I was ah listening to you talk, saying that I was, yeah it's hard not to think of your own, what you do and how you, what is actually motivating you.
00:44:55
Konrad Sauer
And so.
00:44:58
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Empathy is a, empathy is a really big component. Like I'm, I enjoy, i enjoy doing the work for somebody else, knowing that they're going to get something out of it.
00:45:12
Konrad Sauer
So.
00:45:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's empathy, yeah?
00:45:13
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:45:14
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:45:14
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:45:15
Jack Thomas
You know,
00:45:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the, wait.
00:45:15
Konrad Sauer
But, but, but then there's also, but then there is that component of, I've had people who have committed, wanted to commission things and no soup. i've gone full soup Nazi and for, for a variety of reasons.
00:45:26
Konrad Sauer
So that's also that is that the other side of that or not? I don't, I don't know.
00:45:31
Jack Thomas
Wait, what does full soup Nazi mean?
00:45:33
Konrad Sauer
no Yeah, yeah, yeah. mean mean no Meaning I'm not going to make this for you.
00:45:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Seinfeld.
00:45:36
Konrad Sauer
i don't It's a Seinfeld reference. I don't care how much. Yeah, it's not a money thing. it's I'm just not going to get along with you very well or what you're asking for is not something I'm willing to do or interested in doing because it's just not my thing or what I want to do.
00:45:52
Jack Thomas
Is it like, i think about tattoo artists a lot in terms of this. Like grew up in a big like tattoo biker culture, know, kind of thing. And there's there's nothing more annoying to a tattoo artist than when somebody comes in with a piece of flash they printed out or something like that. And they're like, I want you to do this on me.
00:46:13
Jack Thomas
And it's like some kind of like full color photorealistic thing when the person does like black and white symbolic graphic type stuff.
00:46:21
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right.
00:46:23
Jack Thomas
It's like, doc, have you even looked at my portfolio?
00:46:25
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:46:25
Jack Thomas
Like, you know, so Conrad, I really wondered about this in terms of your, you know, of your craft specifically, like, like for designers who are making something for a specific person,
00:46:37
Jack Thomas
They have to have empathy for that end user. But when you make something, unless it's a commission, like you get to have empathy for a person, not this person, right?
00:46:49
Konrad Sauer
right
00:46:50
Jack Thomas
And is that different? Like, does that feel different?
00:46:52
Konrad Sauer
Um, hmm. It's a good question. I don't, I don't know that it does actually. Yeah. I don't,
00:47:05
Konrad Sauer
I mean, at the end of the day, even if it's just for yourself, you're still, yeah. Hmm.
00:47:14
Jack Thomas
Paul, Eric, what about you guys?
00:47:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Check.
00:47:15
Jack Thomas
Like when it's not a commission for someone, like you have to think about the, you have to think about the person who's going to be using it, but you don't know that person.
00:47:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:47:23
Jack Thomas
How does that like affect your approach?
00:47:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:47:25
Jack Thomas
Like in terms of your own style. Yeah.
00:47:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think about longevity. I think about, i think, yeah, like, I don't know who's going to own this, but I know that I want them to have a relationship with this object that sat would satisfy me if I had a relationship with that object.
00:47:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want this to last centuries. I am going to give it the best craftsmanship, the best joinery, renewable materials, hide glue, shellac. Absolutely. like I don't have to know who it's for.
00:47:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just, I just, that just comes out of me for everyone on every project. The one thing I do, I do want to add Jack back to your original point that this it's heavy. It's like designers have empathy, right? And artists have none.
00:48:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was kind of the statement. Yeah. And I know it's an oversimplification, but it's very effective because it is. I think of Rick Rubin.
00:48:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i just I mean, as soon as you said that, all the clips of Rick Rubin, you know what he says about music? I don't ever consider the listener. You shouldn't ever think about the listener.
00:48:33
Jack Thomas
Wow.
00:48:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You should just make what's right for you. i don't ever think about sales or the end user. And that is that artist mindset that you're getting at. I'm an artist. I don't do this for you. You can fuck off. I don't need, and like,
00:48:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like There's artists we know who in some ways, they don't even care if it sells. We just talked to Sean Cheatham right ah just to ah ah just last week. and Sean has such a strong artistic compass. He's like, dude, if I could just make shit in my room and never have to listen to anyone tell me what to do.
00:49:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and never He's like, I would just make shit I thought was cool. I wouldn't even care about selling it. I would just make it and just keep making it in a room by myself. like
00:49:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There is a difference there between a designer and say like that type of an artist. So I immediately thought of Rick Rubin and all of his quotes about not pandering to the audience as an artist.
00:49:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and But but yeah Eric, yeah I'll let you go because you know you've been super patient. Where's the craftsperson? I think the craftsperson is somewhere in between. They're like, and Eric, you react to this.
00:49:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's say a chairmaker. They're empathetic to the user. Like the chair has got to be comfortable. The chair has got to be able to like stand up to all the wear and tear over a hundred years. They're thinking about usability and comfort. So to me, that, that smells a little of empathy, but yet it's kind of stock.
00:50:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's kind of like Pat, like we sculpt the, we sculpt the seat, we wedge the tenons and we, you know, do these things and it's just kind of wrote memory. So it's like empathy, but part of a recipe of empathy.
00:50:19
Peace love & Craft
I mean, it's it's stock empathy in that they have to work to generic person number one. You know, otherwise you're making a chair for an individual person, which increases the price point tenfold.
00:50:31
Peace love & Craft
And then we get into a whole different discussion about accessibility.
00:50:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's like It's like a scale of empathy. It's like the designer takes on boutique problems for just you and just what you need, like maximum empathy, right?
00:50:40
Peace love & Craft
Sure, sure. The same the same way that we can take on boutique problems for somebody who commissions us as an individual, as a family, we can make objects for their spaces.
00:50:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:50:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:50:51
Peace love & Craft
But a chairmaker, to your example, and that was the that was the the k craft that I thought of when Jack started speaking as well, because they have to make the most kind of for lack of a better way to phrase it, the most idealized chair for the idealized person, you know, for the most generic person.
00:51:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Conrad's...
00:51:10
Peace love & Craft
And you just have to assume that other people are going to interact with it in the same way, even if their body proportions are different. Conrad is another interesting example because yeah.
00:51:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's doing that with the shape of his plane with your hands, right? It can't be...
00:51:22
Peace love & Craft
And Conrad can only, if it's, if it is, you only work on commission at this point, right? Like everything is commissioned out.
00:51:27
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yep.
00:51:28
Peace love & Craft
Okay. But, uh,
00:51:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He can't measure every single person's hand and change the bun size.
00:51:31
Peace love & Craft
Right. And so if a person lives in Florida and they commission you to make a plane, like you you just have to assume that because it's comfortable in your hand that it's going to be comfortable in theirs. Yeah.
00:51:42
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. And that's, that has taken a long time to sort of refine that down to the point where like, there are always outliers, people with very small hands and people with really, thought but there,
00:51:52
Peace love & Craft
Of course. Of course. And you can you can take that information in and alter the course, but but in general, you're making it for generic person number one.
00:51:56
Konrad Sauer
Absolutely. Yeah. But there's.
00:52:01
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, unless but I always ask to find out, you know, where where would you know, how tall are you?
00:52:03
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:52:06
Konrad Sauer
How heavy are you? How old are you to just get those parameters? Because that impacts like how heavy how heavy do they want it?
00:52:15
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
00:52:15
Konrad Sauer
all of that kind of stuff. Right. But yeah, handle size is a really, that's a big one. But again, it's been, I've, you know, got a series of different size templates that I'll use and they're it's yeah. Yeah.
00:52:28
Konrad Sauer
And I'm left-handed. So trying to not introduce left-hand bias is also another but big big, big ergonomic issue or challenge awareness really is what it comes down to.
00:52:34
Jack Thomas
Oh.
00:52:41
Peace love & Craft
So is that, that's, that's within the craft aspect of your, your work.
00:52:45
Konrad Sauer
Yep. Yep.
00:52:47
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, that's totally fair.
00:52:47
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, totally. Yep.
00:52:49
Peace love & Craft
Um,
00:52:49
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's, it's all of those. It's interesting because it has to be all of those things, right? Like I'm working for a specific individual person who's commissioned the thing, get, figure out what their parameters are.
00:53:03
Konrad Sauer
Um, They kind of know what they're getting, right? They've either chosen a model or a size or whatever the parameters are, but then then within all of those rules, then I've got the wiggle room to make it the way I want to make it. I think it ought to look. So it has to function first and then
00:53:23
Peace love & Craft
So
00:53:23
Konrad Sauer
figure figure out a way how to express something, say something that's different than what's always being done.
00:53:31
Peace love & Craft
The, the question of how I engage in my work with the end user, I think changes depending on the, I want to say the platform that I'm working on, but that's not necessarily true.
00:53:48
Peace love & Craft
Um, like if I'm making an object and I know that that object is going to be interacted with by a group of people, I'm constantly thinking about how to draw them in and then how to keep them engaged.
00:53:58
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:53:59
Peace love & Craft
Right. So like that's why like I talk about like progressive revelation, even though i'm just stealing that from fucking theological terms. But that idea of like you're you're you're discovering new things the more you interact with the object.
00:54:13
Peace love & Craft
But all that is, is is me taking the principles of making an interesting video and applying it to an object.
00:54:13
Konrad Sauer
Ideally.
00:54:20
Peace love & Craft
Right. And so when I make a video about the object, even though I typically will make objects for myself at this point, the video that I put out, which is the thing that pays the bills, I have to consider all of the people watching it.
00:54:33
Peace love & Craft
So it's this weird tension of like one aspect of the object is for me. The other aspect of the object is, is for the audience. And how do you,
00:54:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, there's e Eric, there's two objects, the the piece and the and the video.
00:54:44
Peace love & Craft
There's two objects, but but some sometimes they're the same.
00:54:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The video is an object, right?
00:54:47
Peace love & Craft
Sure. But sometimes they're the same, right? Like an object that's um made on commission. I have to consider
Functional vs. Decorative Objects
00:54:53
Peace love & Craft
how the people will use and engage with it. But also, ultimately, this is where the ego comes in.
00:54:58
Peace love & Craft
i have to be satisfied with the object. Otherwise, there's no point in me making it, you know?
00:55:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:55:03
Peace love & Craft
Yeah. I will say this.
00:55:05
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:55:06
Peace love & Craft
I like as you were giving that kind of differentiation, Jack, I was thinking about this comment that I had already pulled up before the episode because I wanted to touch on it.
00:55:17
Peace love & Craft
um This is from my last video. ah Some dude left this comment that says he said, man, I kept thinking about the inherent necessity we all have for performing ritual so vital that we've often projected its importance beyond ourselves to the gods.
00:55:35
Jack Thomas
Whoa.
00:55:35
Peace love & Craft
But really, but really, it's for us.
00:55:36
Jack Thomas
whoa
00:55:39
Peace love & Craft
In it, we grieve, we celebrate, we find meaning in our remembering, we we create new meaning in our processing, we die, we're reborn, it's transformative. when our ritual center around the sacred object, those objects are often sacred specifically because their function is to serve as a piece of ourselves, which we're letting go, which is specific to to that cabinet that I just made. But like the point is really interesting in that like the doing of the thing feels ritualistic, feels like the performative art, but the object
00:56:16
Peace love & Craft
is then elevated even if it's just an object because of the ritualistic nature of making things and we are need to make things.
00:56:21
Jack Thomas
Dude.
00:56:23
Peace love & Craft
I was like, that was a 10 out of 10 comment.
00:56:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
00:56:26
Jack Thomas
10 out of 10, and I rarely say 10 out of 10 on a comment like that.
00:56:29
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
00:56:30
Jack Thomas
So whoever that was, high five. ah Which, okay, so this this leads me to the the next kind of axis, right? And also to that you guys are gonna wanna write down, and yes, I'll spell it.
00:56:44
Jack Thomas
um So this at the next axis is function versus decor, right? Function versus just object hood. And the the thing you're gonna wanna write down is Achulian hand axes.
00:56:59
Jack Thomas
A-C-H-E-U-L-I-A-N, I think. ah Achulian hand axes. So this is one of the earliest forms of art, question mark, craft, question mark, design, question mark.
00:57:16
Jack Thomas
And yes, of course, it's sexual, like everything. So Achulian hand axes were like these, let's see, Paleolithic, maybe Neolithic era,
00:57:28
Jack Thomas
axes, but they really look more like, ah you know, those like pastry dough cutting kind of knives. Some of them were functional and could actually cut things. Some of them were merely decorative.
00:57:41
Jack Thomas
They have like a stone on the side of them that is blunted, obviously not meant for cutting. But the one thing that they all share in common is these things were ritualistically made out of a compulsory need to make something physical that is beautiful, that is made from the materials and objects found around that person, and Whoever had the nicest Achulian hand axes got all the ladies.
00:58:09
Jack Thomas
That's the...
00:58:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha
00:58:11
Jack Thomas
It didn't matter all the face sits a caveman could dream of.
00:58:11
Peace love & Craft
All the face-its a man could dream of.
00:58:15
Jack Thomas
Yours for the taking.
00:58:15
Konrad Sauer
Wow.
00:58:17
Jack Thomas
And i don't mean i don't mean whose was the most functional. Because, I mean, it is about how you use it, but it's also got to look nice, right?
00:58:28
Jack Thomas
So this is like, this is on this axis, right, of like function versus decor. We all feel compelled ritualistically to make things that bring meaning to our lives, that symbolize some like incredible moments, some some time in our life that we want to earmark, some feeling we want to earmark.
00:58:50
Jack Thomas
Whether or not that thing is merely beautiful or merely functional or whether it serves both of those purposes, I think it's a spectrum. And I don't, I got admit, I don't really know anymore where art versus craft versus design lies on that spectrum.
00:59:04
Jack Thomas
I don't think it's binary. Yeah.
00:59:07
Peace love & Craft
I mean, I don't think it's binary at all.
00:59:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
00:59:08
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, no, it's no, not at all.
00:59:09
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:59:09
Peace love & Craft
And the the thing, the the example to prove its lack of binarism?
00:59:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha.
00:59:19
Konrad Sauer
bi Binary, binary.
00:59:19
Peace love & Craft
Sure. Binary. You know what I'm getting at. ah It's twofold in this. um The... ah What's the fucking lion, man?
00:59:31
Peace love & Craft
You know, the... the
00:59:33
Konrad Sauer
Oh, right.
00:59:34
Peace love & Craft
You know the one I'm talking about.
00:59:35
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:36
Peace love & Craft
It's a sculpture made out of bone.
00:59:37
Konrad Sauer
yeah
00:59:38
Peace love & Craft
It's like 60,000 years old or something. And Jack, to your point, it is... an object that has no like necessary function in that like it's it's just a sculpture of a lion man, right? Like it's got the body of a man, head of a lion.
00:59:56
Peace love & Craft
um The theory is that it was made in as an aid to storytelling. So then kind of developed a function because it was an object that existed and you're sitting around a campfire as like a caveman 60,000 years ago, just whittling bone.
01:00:17
Peace love & Craft
And then all of a sudden you find the function of the object that you made out of this drive to just make shit. And that's always one that's like, that's that blurs the line for me of like, OK, so you made an object. Maybe you made it for the storytelling or maybe you just made it because you're you were bored and this caveman had ADHD.
01:00:35
Peace love & Craft
Who knows?
01:00:36
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
01:00:36
Peace love & Craft
But like you made a thing either way and then you found the function for it. So was it craft or was it art? Because it's sculpture because it didn't do anything unless it's used in the ritual of storytelling that happened every night.
01:00:50
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, you can also make something where you set out to make something and and what you think you are doing changes as as it evolves, especially when you're dealing with a specific person, when you're making something for a specific person that all of a sudden you realize, holy shit, this this thing that I thought was this is actually something very different for that person.
01:01:04
Jack Thomas
So true.
01:01:15
Konrad Sauer
And so the whole narrative, the whole story of that thing changes And so you're you're then you and you're probably also juggling in different percentages, the craft versus design versus art, because the that outside influence, when you are aware of of the why of it or the importance of it, shifts those things around.
01:01:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. I'm still stuck on the Chilean hand axe, if I'm being honest. ah
01:01:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:01:48
Peace love & Craft
He said, how do I get those face sets?
01:01:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, I didn't...
01:01:51
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:01:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah like I'm not sure I heard a single word y'all said after Chilean hand axe and face sitting. All right, wait. The point I want to ask is it says the oldest Chilean hand axes date back to approximately 1.7 million years ago.
01:01:51
Peace love & Craft
That's...
01:02:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
seven million years ago
01:02:11
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:02:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like... What?
01:02:14
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:02:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. that's an ah like that That's like a hominid precursor, right? That is not homo sapien.
01:02:20
Konrad Sauer
was Lucy.
01:02:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is like...
01:02:21
Konrad Sauer
That was Lucy. that was lucy
01:02:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that's like, yeah, Homo Florentia and Homo erectus, one of those. And does that suggest, Jack and Eric and Conrad, that the idea of craft working with your hands and art, maybe making something flashy to elevate me or make me look better than my peers, that that's always been part of us for fucking two million years?
01:02:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:02:49
Jack Thomas
Literally, absolutely.
01:02:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like
01:02:51
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
01:02:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, here...
01:02:52
Peace love & Craft
Well, I, okay.
01:02:54
Peace love & Craft
In, in fairness, my initial reaction is there's no way to know those, uh, uh, pre-human, um, species that were making those hand axes one point some odd million years ago, what they were thinking about their, their social status in making those things.
01:03:12
Peace love & Craft
Right. We, I think we can guess later on down the road, but, um, I mean, we know that that baboons carry, you know, like they they worry about their social status.
01:03:23
Peace love & Craft
We know lions worry about their social status in the pack. We know like all of these other animals do that.
01:03:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, they do.
01:03:28
Peace love & Craft
So there's no reason to believe that like, you know, that those humans pre humans wouldn't have done the same thing.
01:03:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:03:31
Konrad Sauer
It was, yeah.
01:03:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
here Yeah.
01:03:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But yeah Eric, I agree. and But I guess what the why i I got so rattled by that, and that's why I didn't listen to y'all talk for about five minutes, was like this conversation, we like to think like, oh, wow, art versus craft versus design. and It's like...
01:03:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is part of the human condition, maybe. like It's been occurring to me more and more often, especially as we talk to people in our in this new computer generation, right the phone technology computer and generation, that working with your hand seems to be coming up a lot more.
01:04:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because people are depressed, people anxious, people are this, people are that.
01:04:11
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
01:04:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All these negative traits because they're not working with their hands anymore. And you say, oh, that's easy to understand. It's because you've evolved over millions of years to be doing shit with your hands and your body.
01:04:21
Peace love & Craft
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And here we are again. another example of like art versus craft, all these like ivory tower concepts. Oh, are you an artist? I'm an artist. But like it, I don't know. You're a Chilean hand axe, Jack, like brought it all back to these are concepts that are nothing new.
01:04:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They were probably always part of, we just don't know the history it's evaporated now, but like making things beautiful, elevating them beyond just simple craft by adding ah a bead or a pearl or a, or a colored stone, or you know, maybe this has always been, maybe you see what I'm saying? Maybe this conversation is much, much more longitudinal than I ever imagined.
01:05:04
Peace love & Craft
Maybe they're all the same fucking thing and we're just too deep down the goddamn rabbit hole where we love to parse and differentiate and we're just like, ah ah well, I'm not a designer.
01:05:08
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:09
Jack Thomas
Bingo. Yep.
01:05:14
Peace love & Craft
I'm a craftsperson.
01:05:15
Jack Thomas
If people, if the, if the, if our ancestors who made those a truly in hand access could hear us now, they'd be like, dog, just make the ax and get your face set on. Why are you dissecting this so much?
01:05:23
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
01:05:23
Peace love & Craft
just Hey, hey, it's the simple joys in life, you know, for Christ's sake.
01:05:25
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:05:27
Jack Thomas
It's the simple things.
01:05:29
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:05:30
Jack Thomas
Even if we rewind, or I guess technically from Acheulean hand axes, it would be fast forwarding.
01:05:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:05:35
Jack Thomas
Even if we fast forward from that to like 40,000 years ago.
01:05:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:05:39
Jack Thomas
Okay, approximately.
01:05:39
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, we still we still trying to get our faces sat on.
01:05:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:05:42
Jack Thomas
Still trying to do it, man.
01:05:42
Peace love & Craft
Like, you know, like it's all just trying to get nose deep, dog, you know?
01:05:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric!
01:05:43
Jack Thomas
Every single one of us, bar none.
01:05:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric!
01:05:47
Jack Thomas
Bar none.
01:05:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric! Jesus Christ, man!
01:05:53
Peace love & Craft
It's the simple drives, okay?
01:05:54
Jack Thomas
oh
01:05:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are you trying to make me have to edit this episode?
01:05:55
Peace love & Craft
It's genetic.
01:05:59
Jack Thomas
That would be a first, wouldn't it? Oh, my God.
01:06:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It would be a third, thanks to Eric.
01:06:02
Konrad Sauer
he he he's He's waiting for a bourbon rinse.
01:06:02
Jack Thomas
oh oh excuse
01:06:03
Peace love & Craft
A third? I only know about the other one.
01:06:06
Konrad Sauer
That's what he's doing.
01:06:07
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:07
Jack Thomas
I feel really left out. Okay, so let me let me let me make this like both human and academic at the same time.
Themes in Art and Their Modern Echoes
01:06:13
Jack Thomas
Okay, so 40,000 years ago, fast forward or rewind from wherever your head's at right now, um you know the gutter, or wherever.
01:06:20
Jack Thomas
um So the the caves of Cantabria in Cantabria, Spain. There are these, there are three, I'll call it three themes of cave art that are in that cave.
01:06:32
Jack Thomas
And this is totally, this is totally my analysis. It's not some like fancy academic, you know, there's no, there are no papers written on this. But I think that based on these three themes of paintings in this cave, we, we as artists, crafts, people, designers, whatever the fuck we want to call ourselves, all need to pay attention to these three themes.
01:06:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go
01:06:53
Jack Thomas
the The three themes are, The body, abstract marks that just say, I'm here, I've been here. And the third theme is objects of desire.
01:07:06
Jack Thomas
So I think that those three themes are like the oldest, most enduring themes in art and craft. When you see these cave paintings, some of them are like these reverse silhouettes of a human hand. Somebody's put their hand on the wall and they've used like a blowgun to basically do like, you you know, ye olde, you know, paleolithic spray paint that creates this reverse silhouette of their hand.
01:07:32
Jack Thomas
And then there are these like little... These little dots in another part of the cave. And some people speculate that they're just marks. Some people speculate that they are the sun. Some people speculate that it could be like marks of timekeeping, right?
01:07:45
Jack Thomas
Either way, it's like, I am here. I have marked this time. I have marked my presence here.
01:07:50
Konrad Sauer
It was deliberate.
01:07:52
Jack Thomas
It's deliberate. It's very deliberate, right? The only one that's like pictorial, clearly pictorial, that's not just part of the body being replicated are these drawings of like horses and elk and, you know, buffalo looking things, things that the people wanted to eat, right? They observed them, they saw them, they thought they were majestic, and they also symbolize sustenance. They're objects of desire.
01:08:16
Jack Thomas
So the body, abstract marks of presence and timekeeping and objects of desire.
01:08:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All Jack, Jack, hold on.
01:08:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:08:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's so fascinating. Like i am glued to your every word. And I want to ask you a question. Now you go into the Met museum. Do you see those three things?
01:08:33
Jack Thomas
All the time. All the time. But I think I can't stop seeing them since I had that thought. You know, and i taught I taught a whole class on these three themes and now I can't stop seeing it.
01:08:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
give give give me and Give me an example. you go into the Met, the the Boston Museum of Fine Art.
01:08:43
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:08:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or what are you What are you seeing in terms of... like how did those How do you see those three things? in ah give Give me analogies of what you see in a typical museum.
01:08:54
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, okay, so let's look at ah let's look at the at the Mona Lisa. I know that you know she's at the Louvre, hopefully hasn't been stolen yet. um
01:09:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha! ah
01:09:07
Jack Thomas
But just since we've been we've been talking about her, right? Okay, so the body, obviously, the body is present. We have a fascination with our own body, with each other's bodies. Like, i I tell people, especially, you know, ah angry parents of teenagers who don't like that I show nudes in art history class, like you can't get away from titties. It's like one of the oldest themes in art, like the naked human body.
01:09:29
Jack Thomas
You're not going to escape that. Right. um So the body is present and in the Mona Lisa. Yeah. right? ah and and And objects of desire, right? She was a merchant's wife. This merchant commissioned this painting of his gorgeous wife to memorialize this.
01:09:48
Jack Thomas
And it's also stuck in time, right?
01:09:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
01:09:50
Jack Thomas
It's a marker of a certain day, a certain place, a certain time. There's this symbolic statement saying she was here. and da Vinci by painting it also saying I am here. So that might be reverse engineering of meaning.
01:09:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
01:10:01
Jack Thomas
I kind of see these things everywhere I go now. But i I kind of wonder like,
01:10:03
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:10:05
Jack Thomas
from a like From a craft perspective, you guys you guys must think about the body so often. And how like how does the way that someone might physically interact with something change the way that you go about building something, not just from its structure, but also its ornamentation? Mm-hmm.
01:10:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so so Jack, you've pivoted from the body. There's that word again, pivot. ah' You've changed it from the body. I know Conrad hates that word.
01:10:37
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:10:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Jack, you have pivoted from the body being like... um like there's In a painting, you see the body, right? It's there.
01:10:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You see, you you i like like sculpture, it's the body. You see it, right? But now you're trying to come up with a furniture or maker equivalent, which is how does the body interact with the piece?
01:11:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because we don't directly show the body like a painter does. But Conrad crafts it so it fits in the hand well. Or Eric might make a pole that is sized appropriately for fingers to grab it, right?
01:11:14
Peace love & Craft
So, so how is that different? Like ah a chair maker sculpting out a seat to fit a butt properly.
01:11:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is.
01:11:19
Peace love & Craft
Like that's, that's, that's, that's exactly what Jack was talking about with the the reverse stenciling of the hand, right?
01:11:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's body. It's body. Yeah.
01:11:23
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it is.
01:11:24
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:11:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it is.
01:11:25
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:11:26
Peace love & Craft
It's the negative of the body.
01:11:26
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha
01:11:28
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right.
01:11:29
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:11:29
Konrad Sauer
Or, or the presence of the body is implied by
Furniture and Personal Presence
01:11:33
Konrad Sauer
its function or whatever.
01:11:33
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:11:34
Konrad Sauer
Like it's just, it's, you know, it's a part of it.
01:11:35
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:11:37
Konrad Sauer
Right. So even the lion man, right. The size of that,
01:11:41
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:11:41
Konrad Sauer
That was, you could, you know, it would it fit a human hand. So the scale automatically suggested that, you know, how it was used, what it, you know, gave indication of what it was, why it was made, what it was done for.
01:11:45
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, yeah.
01:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
01:11:54
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
01:11:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So what's the furniture equivalent of marks and objects of desire?
01:11:58
Peace love & Craft
I think the furniture, I was thinking about this while you were talking about it.
01:11:59
Jack Thomas
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
01:12:02
Peace love & Craft
For me, at least, the furniture itself is the mark. like the the And we've talked about this on the podcast before. like in In those moments of like... deep unsettling in my life or like feel really anxious. And you just like wake up in the middle of the night and you just like, I've looked around and been like, oh okay. Like these objects are here as markers of my existence.
01:12:26
Peace love & Craft
Like I have done
Art, Cooking, and Material Desires
01:12:27
Peace love & Craft
something.
01:12:27
Konrad Sauer
Right.
01:12:28
Peace love & Craft
So the objects themselves are the marks that I have left on the world, on the space around me.
01:12:34
Konrad Sauer
ah you You have physically crafted the marks.
01:12:37
Peace love & Craft
Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:38
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:12:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it makes you feel human to, to, to work with your hands and make these objects and to live with these objects makes you feel more alive and more human.
01:12:39
Konrad Sauer
So
01:12:39
Jack Thomas
And for.
01:12:46
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, and and that's just because that's my medium.
01:12:47
Jack Thomas
yep
01:12:48
Peace love & Craft
you know like i like I've been thinking, I haven't found a way to to bring it into the conversation yet, but like I've been thinking a lot about chefs during this conversation, during this topic of like the craft of cooking, but then the art of discovering new flavor combinations and and how...
01:13:05
Peace love & Craft
like But then you also have this weird temporal aspect to it where like the whole point of the art is that it gets consumed and it no longer exists.
01:13:14
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right.
01:13:14
Peace love & Craft
So it's performance art in some way, right? So it's ah like, you know, so it's this weird thing where like, if you get so good at your craft as a as a cook, as a chef, as a culinary artist, you then are known as an artist of food.
01:13:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is.
01:13:17
Jack Thomas
Totally.
01:13:31
Konrad Sauer
right
01:13:31
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:13:31
Peace love & Craft
I don't know, man.
01:13:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:13:32
Peace love & Craft
Like, how do you how do you mark your time in that field?
01:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:13:35
Peace love & Craft
I don't know.
01:13:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, we before we go to cooking, though, I'm i'm still stuck on objects of desire. And ah Conrad, you use the most beautiful woods the world has to make the functional tool an object of desire.
01:13:48
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:13:50
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:13:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
At least that's my take.
01:13:55
Konrad Sauer
Sure. No. Yeah, absolutely. Like, why the fuck wouldn't you? Like, if, if, like, really?
01:14:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why
01:14:03
Peace love & Craft
What an argument.
01:14:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the fuck wouldn't you?
01:14:06
Konrad Sauer
no I mean, there there's, there's some technical qualities about the specific woods that make sense. But at the end of the day, this, like, the the scale, the size, the perceived value, the real value, all of those things are elevated. So you you can quote unquote afford to spend the extra money to acquire those particular materials to use them in those objects because that's sort of what's expected. It's come to be expected rightly or wrongly, but yeah, there is...
01:14:45
Konrad Sauer
absolutely a component of desire there where somebody can what you mean, I can get that material? Well, yeah,
01:14:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but that's...
01:14:52
Jack Thomas
and don't mean to be ah sir I don't mean to be overly poetic about this. And Conrad, if you want to quote me on this and put this on your website, please do. But like look looking looking at your planes has made me ask the question, is an artist just a master craftsman who works with desire as a medium?
01:15:14
Jack Thomas
Because when I look at your planes, I'm just like...
01:15:14
Konrad Sauer
Whoa.
01:15:18
Jack Thomas
Fuck. Like the sense of longing that you feel when you look at something that is so beautiful, like that in itself is a medium.
01:15:31
Konrad Sauer
Hmm.
01:15:32
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:15:32
Konrad Sauer
Well, thank you. Um, I, uh,
01:15:33
Jack Thomas
Oh, you're welcome.
01:15:35
Peace love & Craft
Fuck, that's a thought, Jack. Let's not glaze over that.
01:15:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
conrad Conrad, are you selling desire now that your planes are so fucking sexy?
01:15:40
Konrad Sauer
so
01:15:41
Peace love & Craft
Woo! So, are right are we coming all the way back around on that flat circle where Conrad is, like, the plane the only fans of planes?
01:15:43
Konrad Sauer
I...
01:15:48
Jack Thomas
Oh my God.
01:15:49
Peace love & Craft
Is that what's happening?
01:15:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
how only Only planes?
01:15:52
Konrad Sauer
ah
01:15:52
Peace love & Craft
Only planes. Oh.
01:15:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Only planes.
01:15:55
Konrad Sauer
ah
01:15:56
Peace love & Craft
oh
01:15:57
Jack Thomas
I mean, but seriously, if, if, if, if you make something and there's not at least, you know, there's not at least a ah strong contention of people going out there, out there who are looking at that and going, fuck, I want that.
01:15:59
Konrad Sauer
i
01:16:09
Jack Thomas
Like, isn't that what really changes something from being just an an object that merely exists to being this true object of art and craft and desire?
01:16:19
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, I mean, that's... I mean, yeah. That's definitely... ah like Again, why the fuck wouldn't you? If you can...
01:16:26
Jack Thomas
Right?
01:16:26
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, why wouldn't you do that? I mean, for me, it's it's always how high is up. Right? that Like...
01:16:33
Jack Thomas
Oh.
01:16:34
Konrad Sauer
Like, I want to know where, how far can you take any given thing? And if you have if you have the space where you can not be limited by that, then you start exploring all of those, you start exploring all those paths or those routes.
01:16:51
Konrad Sauer
right
01:16:52
Peace love & Craft
But it sounds to me like you're just articulating your own personal experience with what Jack just said in a very mind-blowing way, right? Like you're so proficient in your craft that like the only question is how do I do it better? And you continue to push it.
01:17:11
Peace love & Craft
And like I think we understand craft versus art in our society as like
01:17:20
Peace love & Craft
the way you're describing is that you're like backdooring into being an artist by accident, but maybe Jack to your, like, I'm going to sit with this for fucking hours, dog. What a goddamn point.
01:17:31
Peace love & Craft
But like, maybe, maybe the artists that endure, like the objects that endure have to be made to last. Maybe the artists that endure are the crafts people who just hone obsessively to the point where, where the, the, yeah, the, Hmm.
01:17:38
Konrad Sauer
yeah i yeah i wrote i wrote Yeah, I wrote two words down.
01:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's so good. So good.
01:17:49
Konrad Sauer
Story is such a huge part of all of this and longevity.
01:17:54
Konrad Sauer
Longevity is such a key to all of this. And that's been touched on a bunch of different times. But as as ah whether you're a designer or an artist or a craftsperson, if whatever you do, whatever you put your effort into,
01:17:54
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:18:08
Konrad Sauer
will endure, will last, and will also be recognized and viewed in, it doesn't matter if it's if it's craft, if it's art, um if if it is reviewed with us or viewed with a sense of ah either intrigue or interest where somebody who interacts with it recognizes that there are qualities about it that they find desirable.
01:18:32
Konrad Sauer
and if it's And then presupposing if it's well made, it will live on well past well past everybody else, right? Well past the person who made it or the group of people who made it.
Enduring Art Through Use
01:18:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Objects of desire. Conrad, the planes start as functional objects, but through your evolution of the shape inspired by car and line and acceleration and through your love of craft, your almost fuck you're almost like crazy, like you're almost bonkers, like love of craft and working with your hands.
01:19:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then on top of it, you start using some of the most beautiful materials the world has ever seen. And you put these three things together, the function, the craft, the artistry, you put this all together so that this utilitarian object, what started as a utilitarian object, fair enough, becomes something where someone, and and I hear this all the time. They're like, that's not a plane. That's art.
01:19:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it like transcends the craft, right? Moving into a new echelon where it but it is such an object of desire that people are like, i don't care how much it costs.
01:19:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I need that. I want that in my life. It is phenomenal. That's a wow. Like what a bar to set for yourself. Right.
01:19:57
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, but I, yeah, it is, but it's also, can't remember who you were talking with before they were talking about paper and using really good quality paper for printmaking.
01:20:09
Peace love & Craft
Mm-hmm.
01:20:09
Konrad Sauer
Like, why wouldn't you spend the extra?
01:20:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was Jack.
01:20:11
Jack Thomas
I think that was me.
01:20:12
Konrad Sauer
Oh, okay. Right. What, like, why wouldn't you get the very best paper? Like, why would you cheap out and spend and get a worry about a 50 cent sheet of paper versus a, even a $20?
01:20:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Conrad, you...
01:20:23
Konrad Sauer
Like, like, because to me, that's, it's the same.
01:20:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but...
01:20:25
Konrad Sauer
That's the same understanding, right?
01:20:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah but
01:20:27
Jack Thomas
i think I think that makes a difference, but let me let me let me point out what i what I think is the difference. And and this is this is a moment where you guys will have to forgive me if if I can be a little vulnerable with you because I have to admit, I'm actually incredibly jealous of of the way that the three of you make things because you make things that people touch.
01:20:50
Jack Thomas
And there is something about there's something about the sensuality
01:20:56
Peace love & Craft
That was the exact word that popped into my head.
01:20:57
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Hmm.
01:20:58
Jack Thomas
Yeah. There's something about the sensuality of something that you make and that you touch and that is desire embodied in a touchable way that I feel like I can't metaphorically touch because the things that I touch, when I make something, if you touch it, that begins the process of it degrading, right?
01:21:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm.
01:21:18
Jack Thomas
And And like the the oils of someone's fingers when they get on the paper and then the sun hits it and it starts to degrade, it's different than the way that someone might handle one of your planes, Conrad, like over time and it develops a smoother spot where, you know, one of their fingers hits it or something like that.
01:21:31
Konrad Sauer
Yep.
01:21:34
Jack Thomas
That's beautiful. That creates this embodied desire and character rather than embodied degradation. And that that is such a beautiful thing. I guess I'm jealous because I feel like...
01:21:48
Jack Thomas
I feel like the things that you guys make interact with the body and the things that I make interact with like the archive, so to speak. And the body will always remember what the archive forgets.
01:22:02
Jack Thomas
The body will always remember what the archive forgets. And so the things that you guys make have this life and this longevity that like I can't even touch.
01:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:22:07
Peace love & Craft
The fucking one-liners tonight, Jack.
01:22:10
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:22:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, Eric, how many, how many one-liner fucking thought bombs has Jack dropped tonight?
01:22:10
Peace love & Craft
Jesus Christ. oh
01:22:15
Konrad Sauer
Hmm. Hmm.
01:22:16
Peace love & Craft
Oh. Yeah, no I'm going to be i'm gonna be sitting on this one for a while.
01:22:17
Jack Thomas
You guys, don't make me hide behind my microphone.
01:22:20
Peace love & Craft
Although, although i do i do also want to point out, though, you said the longevity of degradation versus like the longevity of of whatever the comp was for
01:22:33
Jack Thomas
Well, yeah, it's it's like when when when somebody uses one of Conrad's planes and then passes it down to their kid and that you know they pass it, it gets better with time.
01:22:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it gets better with time.
01:22:41
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, yeah.
01:22:42
Jack Thomas
The the the little spots where the hands you know polish the wood over so many years are good.
01:22:46
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, and and so this this is what I wanted to say, though, is because that the reason that those smooth out and become quote unquote good is literally degradation.
01:22:56
Peace love & Craft
Like the the working of the material is wearing away the surface, degrading it to a point that makes it smoother.
01:22:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, fair enough.
01:22:59
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:23:00
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:23:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that does. Yeah. Yeah.
01:23:03
Peace love & Craft
So is is it like, are we just putting it on a pedestal when like one is physically being degraded over time?
01:23:03
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:23:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Actually, Eric, to,
01:23:08
Konrad Sauer
But that also goes that also goes back to material choices though too, that using materials that do that, well, not just durable, but that that do degrade in a way that is pleasant, not unpleasant.
01:23:09
Jack Thomas
it's It's a romanticization for sure.
01:23:11
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:23:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah To... to
01:23:18
Peace love & Craft
durable materials.
01:23:19
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:23:26
Jack Thomas
It's so true. Like the degradation of things in wood create a sense of legacy.
01:23:27
Peace love & Craft
That's fair.
01:23:31
Jack Thomas
The degradation of things in paper create a sense of entropy,
Labeling in Art, Craft, and Design
01:23:35
Jack Thomas
you know, and I, it's, it is very different.
01:23:35
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right.
01:23:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, because the the furniture is wearing its history on its on its surface, and but it's still equally functional. It's still totally, totally functional.
01:23:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like ah Like a winter chair, we love when the paint's worn away in the certain areas where your feet hit the stretchers or your back rubs against the
01:23:51
Konrad Sauer
right
01:23:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know the back
01:23:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It doesn't take away the function at all. And Conrad's, like I treat Conrad's, I have one of Conrad's planes. i treat it I treat it pretty rough. but it it And he can attest to that.
01:24:10
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it's great. It's great.
01:24:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I send him pictures of it all the time.
01:24:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like used and abused in my shop every day. But it doesn't detract from its function whatsoever. And Jack, i know I'm not sure this thing's true about a print.
01:24:22
Jack Thomas
Definitely not. Well, that's the thing. A print doesn't really have any function except to like decorate space and make people happy. You know, it's, it's different.
01:24:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Jack, you have dropped.
01:24:30
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:24:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah You've done this before on previous episodes, but these like little like thought bombs. I know. I know.
01:24:38
Peace love & Craft
Yeah, but she does it in such a casual way where it's like almost over the shoulder like as she's walking away.
01:24:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know. i know
01:24:44
Jack Thomas
It's the, me it's the mezcal guys. It's just the mezcal.
01:24:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, I have a last question for us. And I thought carefully about this question. And funny enough, my daughter, I was telling her prior to this episode, i she said, what's tonight episode about? And I told her Art vs. Craft.
01:25:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And this is exactly what she said. Like we discussed it for like five minutes. And this is the question she came to. And I already had it written down, which I find very ah interesting.
01:25:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The fact that this was her question being 17 years old.
01:25:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is this an important conversation? Do we need these labels? Do we need to discriminate what an artist is from a craftsperson, from his designer?
01:25:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do these labels play an important role or are we simply perpetuating stereotypes, silos, and classicism?
01:25:38
Peace love & Craft
some Gen Z shit right there. so
01:25:41
Konrad Sauer
wow
01:25:43
Peace love & Craft
no, I, I agree with the sarcastic premise of that question, which is to say, um, no, I don't think we need that because to Conrad's point at the very beginning of the episode, um,
01:25:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:25:56
Peace love & Craft
I think what we do at least in our work as four individuals is we are all of those things simultaneously and we switch from moment to moment between one or the other.
01:26:09
Peace love & Craft
You start doing a thing with an idea, or an emotional intent, and then you have to figure out how to fabricate it, and then you have to step back and think about how the end user is going to interact with it, whether it's handling a certain area of the object or or how it's going to look on a wall and how like light is going to hit it from raking angles versus overhead angles.
01:26:32
Peace love & Craft
All of those things come into play, um and you just waffle back and forth between them.
01:26:37
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. So the point of the conversation then, or the value of the conversation is for other people to realize that, oh, you actually can wear all of those and sometimes one more than the other, but it's not an either or thing.
01:26:50
Konrad Sauer
It's an all thing at various points. So I think that's the point of it is to just point out so people can know, oh yeah, right. I can be all of these things.
01:27:00
Jack Thomas
I agree. i I think it's important to know that these are three different spaces anybody can occupy, but that nobody is only an artist or only a craftsperson or only a designer, that we can and should be all of those things.
01:27:18
Jack Thomas
I think that when we start to have conversations that ah honor a binary between those things, it's super fucking classist. It's incredibly old school, but not in a good way.
01:27:27
Konrad Sauer
Thank you.
01:27:30
Jack Thomas
You know, some things that come to mind for me are like... ah like A lot of the artists who were part of the Black Mountain College movement and the in the 1950s, 60s, like Ruth Asawa was a really famous artist using textile techniques, but she made these fabulous sculptures that are some of the most famous you know art objects in history.
01:27:51
Jack Thomas
And so I think that we have to collapse our ideas about artist versus designer versus craftsperson, about... which mediums are art mediums versus craft mediums, because I think it's all bullshit. You know, I kind of call bullshit on all of it.
01:28:04
Jack Thomas
um I do think it's important to note the different strengths of the people that we call artists versus the people we call designers versus the people we call craftspeople and know that if you're actually really good at being any one of those things, you actually have to be good at being all three of them.
01:28:21
Jack Thomas
And like, I can teach anybody to think like an artist. I can't teach anybody, just anybody to make the way that a craftsperson makes.
01:28:31
Jack Thomas
And design, I think, is somewhere ah ah where you have to learn to solve problems in a certain way, which I think is another thing that you have to learn to do. So it's a worthy conversation to have as long as you realize that there's never going to be an answer and you shouldn't be looking for one.
01:28:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:28:47
Konrad Sauer
Right.
01:28:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. My summary, and by the way, those are brilliant summary statements from all three of you. My summary statement is that I find this framework
01:29:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
helpful in thinking about art and thinking about craft and design. It's a framework. It's a conceptual framework is what this conversation is. Those terms form a conceptual framework that helps me crystallize some of my thinking, but identifying with these labels to me is not important.
01:29:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're all the same, right? We just love making things. We love art. We love all of it, honestly. It fulfills something in us. I don't need to to be part of any club. But I do think the conceptual framework has been helpful for me to understand a bit about art in the general sense or, know, make objects and art and making in a general sense.
01:29:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And also, I think it's helped me understand me to some degree, even though I don't care about labels.
01:29:50
Konrad Sauer
Right.
01:29:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What a discussion, you guys. So good.
01:29:57
Peace love & Craft
Can I add one final caveat onto that? Which is all three of us have been making shit for decades. We are many, many years deep into our creative journeys and in our journeys as craftspeople.
01:30:11
Peace love & Craft
If
Enjoying the Art and Craft Journey
01:30:12
Peace love & Craft
you are newer, ignore everything we just said and just make shit. Do not get bogged down in the like, what am I?
01:30:20
Jack Thomas
So true.
01:30:22
Peace love & Craft
How am I approaching? Just fucking make shit.
01:30:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I agree.
01:30:25
Peace love & Craft
Just do that and find joy in the making of the objects.
01:30:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's great advice.
01:30:29
Jack Thomas
Because if you're thinking too much, you're not making enough and making is the important thing.
01:30:31
Peace love & Craft
That part, that part.
01:30:32
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, exactly. Over and over and over and over.
01:30:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Conrad, Jack, Eric, what a discussion. So, so good. The three of you are phenomenal.
01:30:44
Jack Thomas
So fun.
01:30:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm, I'm, I feel immense.
01:30:48
Peace love & Craft
Hey, you're phenomenal too, buddy.
01:30:49
Jack Thomas
Yeah, bro.
01:30:50
Peace love & Craft
don't Don't exclude yourself from that.
01:30:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, thank you. But
01:30:51
Jack Thomas
We love you, dog.
01:30:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel so appreciative to have you guys as friends.
01:30:52
Peace love & Craft
We love you, dog.
01:30:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And like I was just saying to Conrad before the show, just the fact that I get to hang out with you tonight and talk about this stuff, just I was looking forward to it all day.
01:31:04
Konrad Sauer
It's pretty fucking great.
01:31:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I about it after. have trouble sleeping.
01:31:07
Jack Thomas
Me too. meet
01:31:08
Konrad Sauer
Oh God, yeah.
01:31:08
Peace love & Craft
Oh, yeah. No, i'll I'll get a text in 30 minutes for sure.
01:31:08
Jack Thomas
ah
01:31:09
Konrad Sauer
30?
01:31:12
Konrad Sauer
thirty
01:31:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:31:13
Peace love & Craft
Well, we got the after show, you know.
01:31:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Conrad has no phone, so we can't text him anyway.
01:31:17
Peace love & Craft
Ha ha ha ha!
01:31:17
Jack Thomas
Oh,
01:31:17
Konrad Sauer
i know
01:31:20
Jack Thomas
boy.
Community Engagement and Aftershow Preview
01:31:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, in the after show, this is what we're going to take on. Two things. We're going to take on this idea that Jack said, I can teach anyone how to think like an artist because I know that Mr. Conrad Sauer has some thoughts on that and he had liked to he would like some clarification with Jack on that in the most friendly and delightful way in the after show.
01:31:35
Konrad Sauer
Clarification.
01:31:36
Jack Thomas
Oh, boy.
01:31:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then secondarily, we're going to do a second segment called Gotta Beam Up On It.
01:31:49
Peace love & Craft
Paul's got some real bees in his bonnet that we need to get off our chests here.
01:31:50
Jack Thomas
you
01:31:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's where the four of us bitch about something that is just going up our ass sideways this week.
01:31:59
Peace love & Craft
I've got such a good one that happened this morning and it was so good that I was like literally in awe in a public space.
01:31:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:32:05
Peace love & Craft
I didn't know how to react to it.
01:32:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we will be covering that in the after show. If you want to tune it into the after show, just support us on Patreon. Just go to our Patreon, uh, support us. You get the YouTube video feed, you get the after show. And now we have a actual, chat community.
01:32:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, Oh, that's another thing we're going to do in the after show. We had questions come up in the chat community in the, so we have a Patreon community chat.
01:32:32
Peace love & Craft
God, this is going to be a three hour long after show.
01:32:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know, i know we have a lot to get to.
01:32:36
Jack Thomas
I'm gonna bring that whole bottle of mezcal down.
01:32:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:32:38
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, yeah.
01:32:38
Peace love & Craft
Honestly.
01:32:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we have a new community chat and people are have been asking me, what's it about? And it's about everything. We bring show ideas before record them for your questions and input.
01:32:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
People just share things. ah I think it was Dustin this week shared He's like, I'm making this thing for, I'm making this thing, this item for a customer. And they said they wanted it painted, but he's like, but the grain is like so beautiful.
01:33:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i almost can't bring myself to paint it. Should I take the liberty of maybe dyeing it that it darkens it, but it still shows the customer some of the visual intrigue?
01:33:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do I make a sample and just show the customer or do I just do what I'm told? Yeah.
01:33:29
Jack Thomas
Got a little art versus craft versus design question there.
01:33:29
Peace love & Craft
Oh, oh.
01:33:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dustin, Dustin floated this and a lot of us weighed in.
01:33:32
Peace love & Craft
Oh.
01:33:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think the consensus was that, uh, you should, you should, you should follow your artistic gut and suggest it as an option.
01:33:39
Peace love & Craft
Fuck.
01:33:44
Peace love & Craft
Well, we need. All right. First of all, we need more context for this. We're good like, we're also I feel like we need to do a mailbag episode at this point where it's just questions like that.
01:33:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
01:33:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Well, we'll take that.
01:33:52
Konrad Sauer
Oh.
01:33:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We'll take it in the after show. But just I just want to give you the punchline and we can talk about a little bit of the details.
01:33:55
Peace love & Craft
Hmm.
01:33:57
Konrad Sauer
Oof.
01:33:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He showed the customer the stained piece as opposed to the painted piece. And the customer chose that.
01:34:08
Peace love & Craft
Okay, good, good,
01:34:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Which I think that is that is you being the best craftsperson you can.
01:34:09
Konrad Sauer
Salvation.
01:34:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know this object deserves, like there's natural beauty here.
01:34:16
Peace love & Craft
good, Sure,
01:34:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't cover it up, please.
01:34:20
Konrad Sauer
Don't fuck it up.
01:34:21
Peace love & Craft
Yeah.
01:34:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But let me give you a version that satisfies your goals, but also pays homage to the material. I thought this was just like the best conversation we had in the Patreon chat. So,
01:34:32
Peace love & Craft
Hey, Paul, where can people find Patreon?
01:34:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, it sorry. Yeah, thank you. I always put a link in every show ah in every show description. There's a link to the Patreon.
01:34:43
Peace love & Craft
Amazing.
01:34:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and you
01:34:44
Peace love & Craft
And on YouTube?
01:34:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:34:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in every... Sorry, so what's the question about that?
01:34:50
Peace love & Craft
I said, and also in the YouTube description?
01:34:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in the YouTube description.
01:34:54
Peace love & Craft
Amazing.
01:34:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in the the the Spotify description.
01:34:54
Peace love & Craft
Great, great, great, great, great.
01:34:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in Apple pod. It's in every description.
01:34:58
Peace love & Craft
Love it.
01:34:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we've been trying to get better at posting to social media, haven't we, Eric?
01:35:03
Peace love & Craft
We have been doing a great job of it, okay?
01:35:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Love you, boo.
01:35:11
Konrad Sauer
bye.
01:35:12
Peace love & Craft
Liar.
01:35:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, y'all. We'll see you in the after show. Thanks for a great episode. We'll see you next time.
01:35:18
Konrad Sauer
okay bye
01:35:18
Jack Thomas
Bye. bye