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Episode 51 - The TOUGHEST DECISION (w/ Brent Biglow & Freddy Roman)
1.3k Plays2 days ago
You start your own business or side hustle full of hope, excitement, and anticipation. However, after a few years, you realize running your own business is MUCH harder than you anticipated, taking EVERYTHING from you rather than giving you the flexible rewarding lifestyle you imagined. DO YOU KEEP GRINDING, thinking that maybe NEXT YEAR will bring success? Or DO YOU CALL IT QUITS, realizing you've always sacrificed enough and might be MUCH HAPPIER working for someone else, or doing something else entirely.
In this episode, our two guests (Brent Biglow and Freddy Roman) share their experiences with us on this exact question having chosen DIFFERENT PATHS; One is still grinding it out and the other closed up shop. This conversation is brutally honest, introspective and vulnerable, and absolutely fascinating.
Brent's Products & Work: https://biglowwoodcraft.com/
Brent's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/biglowwoodcraft/
Freddy's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/periodcraftsmen/
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
The Allure and Reality of Self-Employment
00:00:01
Speaker
Well, many of us chase the dream of working for ourselves, make our own schedule, do things our own way. We want to call the shots. It'll be great, right?
00:00:13
Speaker
Until we realize this freedom comes with some fine print, which says, you will now worry about everything all the time and have to do just about everything yourself. But hey, freedom, am I right?
Introducing the Podcast and Hosts
00:00:42
Speaker
Well, if Bad Ideas had a support group, this would be their weekly meeting. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. Goddammit, that's a t-shirt buddy. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and across the screen, across the US, is my boy, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:01:04
Speaker
Across the US? Well, not really. Just south of me. Just two cities down. Okay, fair enough. And tonight we have two very new and special guests first.
Meet Brent Biglow: Sustainability and Craftsmanship
00:01:17
Speaker
And we're going to do a little different introduction than usual, but let's let's start. I'll start with what I know about them, and then they're going to introduce themselves in a different way.
00:01:28
Speaker
Our first guest, Brent Biglow. Brent started Bigelow Woodcraft in 2015, centered around sustainability and repairability. I was really happy to read that.
00:01:39
Speaker
um He started in the back of an upholstery shop making furniture, from what I understand, and now runs his own company of about seven people, where they make handcrafted goods that are equal parts functional, beautiful, sustainable, and affordable.
00:01:53
Speaker
so that's Brent, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. And in addition, we have Freddie Roman, one of my earliest woodworking influences who brought me into the world of fine furniture and helped to show me, honestly, where the bar really is. He's one of my close personal friends. He lives near me.
00:02:14
Speaker
And Freddie has had an amazing storied education at the Furniture Institute in Massachusetts with one of the masters of period furniture, legendary Phil Lowe.
00:02:27
Speaker
And Freddie started making amazing furniture of his own before starting his own furniture restoration business. um He's someone that I care about deeply, and I've wanted to have him on the podcast for quite some time.
Brent's Commitment to Sustainability and Challenges
00:02:40
Speaker
Freddie, welcome.
00:02:41
Speaker
Thank you for having me. Okay, that's my introduction of you two. So formal. I know. But now we get to do the informal. So Brent, I want you to introduce yourself, but you're not allowed to use any labels.
00:02:58
Speaker
Brent, I hate it when he does this shit. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. Oh, my God. you can't I'm trembling in my Eddie Bauer shirt. You can't talk about what you do for a job, and you can't talk about your ethnicity.
00:03:16
Speaker
That's what I always talk about. my God. or anything that qualifies as a label. We want to know who you really, really are sort of at your core person and what you deeply care about in this life.
00:03:31
Speaker
Wow. Okay. um i make things for people that have similar values to me, which are that most of the things that are made and bought today are really bad for people in the long term.
00:03:55
Speaker
And if we could go back to a different way of doing things that's a little more people focused and build businesses around that goal is like bringing value into our homes via our purchases. And when that value isn't there, not making the purchase.
00:04:20
Speaker
Um, I think that would be better. And so that's kind of, What I want to do is like sustainable materials are, are like actually excellent building materials. And for some reason we are hell bent on squeezing every dime out of, out of the process in, uh, injection molding, some barbecue scraper that, uh, poisons us with flakes of metal in our burgers.
00:04:49
Speaker
If I may, if I may interrupt you before he gets to ask you a second question, can you elaborate on you said things that are bad for people and you you are trying to do the opposite of that.
00:05:02
Speaker
I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what you mean more specifically with that. um I think like we're just it's about overconsumption. we just We buy so much crap and it ends up in a landfill in 6 to 40 months. And I don't think it it gives people the...
00:05:23
Speaker
satisfaction the fulfillment that they that they are sold in the marketing of that product they bought and it just you know or like cell phones cell phones are just dividing us and taking our time away from us they were sold as this tool that help us communicate and connect and they kind of do the opposite now and it only took 15 years you know so what is it about the objects that you make that are fundamentally different from that um
00:05:53
Speaker
We're already diving in. Eric! can we kill brent but ah No, I'm not going to let you bully me, Paul. Answer the damn question, Brett. okay I'm answer it in a way that doesn't get a follow-up.
00:06:09
Speaker
Maybe. Probably not.
00:06:12
Speaker
We make things that last a long time and are very upfront about what they're going to do for you and what values they bring. And they're made with, with wood and they're made by people paid fair wages. And that's it.
00:06:30
Speaker
It's like, it's all on the box and the box has true words on it. And that, that is missing from today. So yeah. honesty. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I feel like Brent, a big piece of who you described yourself to be is like, there's an honesty piece about giving people what you say you're going to give them and the materials being what you promise that they're going to be. So that's, I loved your answer. Freddie, how would you describe, how would you introduce yourself without labels?
00:07:01
Speaker
Oh, boy. um Without labels. It's ah actually a very challenging question because I've been trying to think to myself, how can I actually describe myself here? i I can describe myself as a person who enjoys the past and appreciates design and culture and tri tries to strike a balance in today's new world.
00:07:27
Speaker
And... I still want to appreciate what's beautiful, but at the same time feel that there's tons of exploration out there that still, for me personally, I need to have and enjoy and cherish for someone who grew up very poor.
00:07:42
Speaker
ah So I feel like understanding the past and trying to make something grand and beautiful from the past and trying to make it my own. And hopefully that my makings or my appreciation can be shared to others. And hopefully they get an understanding and they get an appreciation for it to share with others or pass on to someone else who may have like interests and maybe create connections. And then we can create a bond and friendship.
00:08:11
Speaker
Hmm. Freddie, does that desire to take what was in the past and kind of um interpret it and and put something based in the past, but hopefully is new and and is Freddie? Does that extend beyond furniture is that exclusive to your woodworking practice?
00:08:33
Speaker
ah That's a great question. At first, for many years, it was just furniture. And now it's kind of like a new discovery as I step back away from what I once was to what I am now. Wow.
00:08:48
Speaker
All right. so evolving story, evolving answer,
Brent's Struggle with Business Viability
00:08:51
Speaker
Freddie. Okay. So today's episode is about running your own business. Okay. And we have three examples with us today, Brent, Freddie, and Eric, who have all owned their own businesses and have done it three very different paths. And ah I think we'd like to, this started, this whole episode began because I was watching Instagram and I saw Brent's reel about his business. I didn't know Brent.
00:09:25
Speaker
I mean, Brent, we've never met before this episode. So it's like, I was i found your story that you expressed in that reel so compelling that i reached out to you literally cold.
00:09:38
Speaker
And I was like, Brent, would you talk about this on the podcast? Because I think people need to hear this. So why don't you tell us a little bit about you know the the path you're on and and where you find yourself now?
00:09:51
Speaker
um For sure. So the real in question was sort of, it was something that I that i had been thinking about for months because I was going through an existential crisis. I don't want to use that word, honestly, but I said it already.
00:10:09
Speaker
um
00:10:12
Speaker
I didn't know if I should keep going or if I should quit. And that's a small question that's always in the mind of of a small business owner, I think.
00:10:25
Speaker
But when certain things happen, that question grows. And when other things happen, it shrinks. And a lot of things happened this year that made it grow very big to the point where I...
00:10:37
Speaker
decided i was done. And I even told my staff and I told my family and friends that i was probably out in six months or so. And I was just laying the the groundwork to, to move out of it.
00:10:53
Speaker
And I kind of peeked over the fence at some project management positions or a friend of mine is ah is an engineer who estimates on big projects. And he said he could probably get me something like that. So i kind of envisioned my life different for the first time in 10 years.
00:11:09
Speaker
Like i always knew what I was doing and where I was going until this year. And that was really strange.
00:11:22
Speaker
And to quickly recap what happened, um we I've been a custom furniture builder for 10 years and about three years ago we started building a product line because I wanted to scale and eventually get off the tools.
00:11:39
Speaker
And so we started building this product line, which is more scalable, hiring people, um building a social media presence, building this online persona. And last year we made some headway and we were kind of poised to succeed as a product business. And So I kind of went all in and I stopped taking custom orders.
00:12:02
Speaker
And then this year there was a trade war. We're in Canada. um A lot of our customers and are in the States, about 80% of them.
00:12:13
Speaker
And as you all know, like the, the situation between the U S and Canada this year has been weird. And that was very visible in our sales.
00:12:25
Speaker
And, And had a very ambitious ah custom bed project that was sort of like the last of my custom projects.
00:12:37
Speaker
I already last year was kind of thinking, no, I'm i'm done with this. But um this one bed project was was very enticing. It's a very cool project um for me. And so I took it.
00:12:52
Speaker
And, uh, in the middle of building it is this trade war where suddenly our sales are slumping and we have all these shipping and logistics issues to sort out um
00:13:06
Speaker
it it It was a difficult situation to be kind of split between the two businesses that I was building at the same time. And I was actively trying to get rid of one. But then we need money. And there's always like custom
Exploring Life Beyond Business
00:13:22
Speaker
inquiries in my inbox that I can sort of...
00:13:25
Speaker
fundraise from and just say, you know, like go through and pick a few that I like and take deposits and and book them. And so in the middle of all this, it's like I'm thrown back into doing everything at the same time.
00:13:39
Speaker
And So the shop became a production space for our product line. Very much so. And there wasn't too much room ah to build custom furniture.
00:13:55
Speaker
And I'm building this bed um in the evenings because it's all hands on deck to figure out this situation uh and it's just easier to build a ah demanding piece when i have the shop to myself and so i was can i ask you a question right there i'm just trying to like paint um a mental image right now um yeah how many people do you have in the shop on the floor and how big is the space uh the space is about 20 the shop itself is like 2500 square feet and then we have a little office and bathroom and stuff that's separate and there were six of us including me at this time okay so you've got you've got six people on the floor building yeah 2500 square feet which fills up fast
00:14:47
Speaker
Yeah. And you're trying to produce. Okay. And, and you're trying to produce a line of furniture at the same time as taking these custom orders and to, to kind of keep the lights on.
00:15:01
Speaker
Okay, great. Just wanted to like, I'm trying to put myself in your headspace as you're telling this story. So thank you. Keep going. No, that that's, these are important details. Like it, it's difficult to get anything done in the woodshop during the day that isn't production.
00:15:18
Speaker
So I was running my business during the day and for, So six or seven weeks, I was going in um after supper and working till like midnight or one or even two, some nights, three or four nights a week to get this bed done.
00:15:36
Speaker
That's fine. I've done that a few times. It's a little different this year because we have a two-year-old, but it's fine. I made it through. um and this bed is is in Seattle. I'm not in Seattle.
00:15:48
Speaker
And so we ship it and we pay for the best shipping that's going to arrive on a guaranteed date because I'm flying out a day or two later to move this bed into the space and install it.
00:16:02
Speaker
And it's not just a bed frame. It's like a whole installation into the wall. So I'm doing some sort of finishing carpentry as well while I'm there. um The shipping company loses the bed.
00:16:16
Speaker
For five days, we did not know where it was. um I canceled my trip just in time. I actually canceled my trip for a different reason.
00:16:29
Speaker
And then... It just works out, actually, that I am coming for the new successful date. The airline loses my luggage, but I think they maybe confiscated it, but they never actually said.
00:16:46
Speaker
Because I had some tools in there, and that was my mistake. I should have figured this out. But I had some tools in there and they confiscated one of the batteries.
00:16:56
Speaker
I guess you can't fly with a big lithium battery on your drill. That lesson learned. um But they didn't get me my bag for three days. So I'm in Seattle assembling this bed. Also in the in the luggage is like some like minor parts of the bed that I had custom built in my shop.
00:17:16
Speaker
So I can't do some of it. And of course there's changes on site, you know, that like any custom home, it was being built at the same time. Like the bed was kind of one of the last pieces of this massive, incredible house, incredible clients. Like everyone is so understanding. There's this carpenter who's, who's doing finishing touches on the house and he's got all these tools and he's super cool and he helps me out.
00:17:43
Speaker
And I borrow his tools and and I rent a truck one day and I go and, you know, pick up some wood from this foreign ah wood supply store and just kind of make do. And I did. And between me and this carpenter and the cool clients, like the bed is okay.
00:18:02
Speaker
But I'm in Seattle. You're not okay. Yes. Yeah, if you're familiar with the climate of Winnipeg and the climate of Seattle and, you know, like the grass was so green watching this carpenter show up to this sort of dream house in the middle of a forest like.
00:18:27
Speaker
It wasn't ancient growth, but in my brain now, like an ancient growth forest. I was in the middle of it. I was building it. Yeah. And it just like sort of all of a sudden hit me like...
00:18:40
Speaker
I have the skill set to have a better life than I currently have. Wow. And I talked to some people that I know, um one of which is a project manager on Vancouver Island, which is similar to Seattle, very close.
00:18:59
Speaker
And one of them, an engineer in Winnipeg, and and my dad, who's an engineer in Winnipeg. ah And it just felt like... I think I was riding one of the trains and there's like, there's infrastructure. I love, I love a good infrastructure and I'm riding one of these very nice new Seattle. that's that's a way i don't want to, I don't want to brush over that statement. That's a wild statement. I love a good infrastructure. I've never heard anyone say that. Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
00:19:31
Speaker
that's That's telling about who you are as a human being, brother. Carry on with your story. i Yeah, I mean, the trains, they run efficiently. They got they got everybody going where they want to go. Yeah.
00:19:45
Speaker
yeah is this Is this moment where you were like, at this house, the grass is seemingly greener, I could have a better life. Was this what led to you making the announcement, I'm going to shut down?
00:19:58
Speaker
Or was this, you had already decided I'm going to shut down? like what How did those two things line up? I was sitting outside at this house in Seattle. like i had a really rough day.
00:20:13
Speaker
Call it three months leading up to this. and You know, there's a lot of challenges doing what I'm doing already.
00:20:23
Speaker
And before that rough three months, like we we had our first ever recall and we we replaced over, I don't know, 80 gravity bars. That's what our flagship product that had had a manufacturing issue that we didn't know because we weren't testing them. Because we're a brand new company and we don't know how to do anything. And so we weren't putting, inserting paper into the gravity bars before shipping them.
00:20:50
Speaker
And then suddenly someone emailed us in like October of 2024. They were like, Hey, my gravity bar doesn't work. It doesn't hold anything. So we instantly like tested everything on the floor and some of them were not holding anything. was like, Oh my God. So was like, stop the presses.
00:21:09
Speaker
And we figured out that, uh, when we switched from steel balls to glass balls, To save a bit of money, I'm happy to admit, like we're doing something hard and we need everything we can get. um We very minimally tested like the new angle that is machined into the wood that the balls sit on and we got good results. And so we just immediately switched and just went for it. And then a couple months later,
00:21:39
Speaker
we We were in this situation. And so we solved it. We figured out our CNC machining process needed to be fixed up and we needed to add testing. And so now we test our gravity bar. We're past it.
00:21:54
Speaker
So it was a rough three months, you're saying? Excuse me. Before that three months was this bad recall situation. Okay. and that was very expensive to replace and ship all of these gravity bars.
00:22:09
Speaker
And then it felt like, okay, this is the moment, you know, like we figured this out. We weathered a storm. So this business is proven. Okay.
00:22:21
Speaker
So let's grow. i hired a media guy. I spent two months building a new website, ah another expensive endeavor. And then is the beginning of the rough three months. So it's kind of like the the difficult moment this year was like the third storm to weather.
00:22:40
Speaker
and I didn't really realize that until I was in Seattle um sitting in this beautiful ancient growth forest, which was not ancient at all. So you're, again, paint me a picture here. So you're sitting in this forest looking out over this growth that's been around for 10,000 years. 10,000 plus. Easily. yeah um You're looking at the Methuselah tree.
00:23:07
Speaker
And that's a bristlecone pine on the top of the mountain. He most certainly wasn't looking at that. He was. Hey, hey, do not fuck this mental image up in my head, OK? He's having a spiritual moment. Yeah, sure. And this is the moment where you realize that you could have a better life or you decide that you want a different life because those are two different realizations.
00:23:29
Speaker
Um, I would say it it happened very quickly that those are two different things, but like they were sort of witnessing other people, um with similar skill sets, uh, living out there doing their thing and feeling like I could, I could have that.
00:23:52
Speaker
I could have that. And then at the same time, just like, I was looking forward to my trip. Like it is a furniture maker's dream to have a client who is like, I want your work and I want to fly you out to put it in my house.
00:24:10
Speaker
You know, first that's like still waiting on that dream. Top. Yeah. Hey, I got a contact for you. He's great. Yeah. Um, well, yeah, like I was, I was so looking forward to this and it just came falling down so hard at the same time as I'm witnessing, like in my opinion, similar people with similar skill sets, just, okay you know, even, and one of them actually messaged me privately after I posted that reel. And he was like, you know, like I, I appreciate and like,
00:24:51
Speaker
It was a very nice message, but he basically said like everyone has their struggles, right? You only see each other's highlight reels. So like he was very ah comforting and like pushing me to, to not view his life or anyone's life as like the sort of highlight reel that gets presented.
Freddie Roman's Path and Pricing Dilemmas
00:25:10
Speaker
Well, so you were thinking about giving it up, Brent, and you decided not to, what convinced you not to? um
00:25:19
Speaker
My accountant is the short answer. Yeah, tell me why. What did your accountant say that was so convincing? I think like accounting is my Achilles...
00:25:33
Speaker
heel tendon yeah no no furniture maker gets into woodworking so that we can run the fucking numbers like we want to build shit exactly you want to run away from the numbers by building shit and that's that's what i've been doing for 10 years is like oh if i just build nicer and nicer shit at event at some point eventually the numbers will just work are you saying if you build it they will come was that yes okay okay That's, that was the only sentence I said for years.
00:26:06
Speaker
And now, yeah. So what did your accountant say? he of. sort of confirmed to me that like the books aren't so bad and you've done a majority of the hard work already to to set up the foundation for a brand that produces excellent products and has a bunch of happy customers like
00:26:37
Speaker
Give it another year at least to just see if this foundational work pays off. And when was that? How long ago was that?
00:26:49
Speaker
That was end of August. Seattle is end of July. all right. So a year would be next August. Yeah. Did you decide a year is it?
00:27:02
Speaker
Or you just like, okay, hold tight for now and we'll see? um
00:27:09
Speaker
It's interesting, like, part of the reason... So, I set the meeting with the accountant because I wanted to just i wanted to learn how to close a corporation.
00:27:20
Speaker
But in that meeting, i was like, i think it takes me six months to, like, fulfill orders and, like... You know, you can't just walk out the door tomorrow.
00:27:32
Speaker
And so six months in my mind is kind of like one unit of business time. So he's kind of like, give it two units of business time. And I was like, okay, two units.
00:27:45
Speaker
Interesting. that metric. That feels good. That feels right. Yeah. Yeah. So can can we Paul? ah Yeah, I would love to leave this like cliffhanger for a moment of like where Brent is in this situation of he's really on the cusp of closing it down because I want to hear how like I want to hear Freddie's tale and I want to hear how he got to the conclusion that he got to in comparing contrast like yes, where Brent and Freddie were at when they were at that moment simultaneously. I love it.
00:28:19
Speaker
Okay, Freddy, talk to us, buddy. Tell us the story. Start at the beginning, and then when you get to the end, you can stop. ha What a great rule. but Oh, Freddy. Freddy, you're muted, homeboy.
00:28:38
Speaker
We're going to figure this out. So how I got into my business was just pure luck. ah I was in between going to college and trying to think that I'm going to be a great architect because I loved structure. i love architecture. i love buildings. Also, I wanted to be like Norm Abrams, I guess you can say, this old house, the guy who was able to not only kind of work with his hands, but I also enjoyed design.
00:29:07
Speaker
ah And then I go to college and they basically tell me that I can't do both, that I can't be an architect slash builder. So I'm like, why not? And I decided to drop out of college when I knew more than my statistic math teacher.
00:29:24
Speaker
When I corrected his his math problem in front of the class and I said, you're wrong and I'm right. And then I proved it and then in front of the class and then i basically said, you know, I want to drop out of your class. sign And then you mic dropped it.
00:29:37
Speaker
Yeah, I literally might drop it went to the office and left. And it was like, what do I do now? I was kind of like stuck and i didn't know which side to go, where the fork would lead me in the road.
00:29:50
Speaker
And I happened to find Woodcraft in Connecticut, Manchester, Connecticut. And at the back of Woodcraft, there was a school now called the Connecticut Valley School of Woodworking run by Bob Van Dyke.
00:30:02
Speaker
And then randomly on one of my woodworking like you know sales associate shifts there happens happens to be a man called phil low in the back teaching his first class hold on hold on pause real quick because you just went from i was an architecture student to now i'm a sales associate at a woodcraft yes okay so you dropped out of school and you were like fuck this architecture shit dovetails all day let's fucking go i'm diving in Honestly, I had no idea where it was leading me.
00:30:32
Speaker
i just i didn't I didn't know what my next step was. i just knew that woodworking was something I was interested in. And I just happened to be in luck that a person told me that, hey, there happens to be a woodworking store opening up.
00:30:47
Speaker
in town gotcha okay that's funny and i went from architecture school to olive garden so kind of hey olive garden is really the woodworking of italian food if you think about it but when you hear your family you know i do the and endless breadsticks was where we're going for yeah ah So just by chance, i I tripped up at Woodcraft and there as a sales associate, I come to find out there's a woodworking school back there.
00:31:20
Speaker
Come to find out there's a magazine called Fine Woodworking. And then a kind of domino effect of all the authors at that time in fine woodworking was happening to be teaching at the back of the school.
00:31:31
Speaker
I happened to be there on the weekend that Phil was teaching his first class. And the guy is a whiz. being able to teach and produce because a man is not only teaching 10, 12 students how to make a piece of furniture. He's also making the same piece and he's flying as he's teaching and everything is just like magical.
00:31:54
Speaker
And of course I go in, like he just keeps drawing me in. I'm getting closer and closer to the bench. I'm ignoring my job. And then I introduced myself and he basically says, you know, Hey, I'm Phil Lowe.
00:32:08
Speaker
I run a school called the Furniture Institute of Mass. You should come up sometime. And basically, he just suckered me to yeah Tell my mom, like, hey, I want to go visit Beverly. And she's like, where the hell is Beverly? This is a time of map quest, and you better follow every single step of the way.
00:32:29
Speaker
And um for people who don't know Massachusetts, at least the North Shore, they don't label their streets throughout the path of the street. So they only label it at the beginning and the end of the street. Oh, that's that's helpful. So it's like...
00:32:43
Speaker
yeah You're literally getting lost here. And and I visited the school. It was very picturesque, right next to the water in in towns I've never heard of, which so much history. And I literally walked into the open house that he was having at the school, and like I fell in love.
00:33:01
Speaker
Like the aroma, the creaky floors. He had this wall of shame that was all this beautiful artwork that he physically did. Come to find out those were his screw-ups, but he just never told you they were his screw-ups. He just laid them up on the wall to kind of showcase everything.
00:33:19
Speaker
And i literally just got sucked in to the point that I applied to go to the school. I got accepted. And I went there for two years, which was the best experience of my life for my career. When was this? What years?
00:33:35
Speaker
2004 to 2006. Okay. okay So I was like 22 to 24. i got accepted prior year year, but I couldn't come up with enough funds because I...
00:33:47
Speaker
Because crazy me, I thought this was like a college. Like you have financial aid or I can get a loan. There's no such thing. No such thing. So I worked three jobs just to go to school.
00:34:00
Speaker
And I went to school. I almost became homeless. I basically became the shop manager. I had a great idea of like I'm going to be living out of my car ah and going to be sleeping in the shop when no one's around. I had a $10 membership to Platinum Fitness. I love Kitchenette.
00:34:22
Speaker
You know, that was like the big plan to be able to save money while going to school 60 hours a week, working 40 hours a week at CVS as a shift supervisor.
00:34:34
Speaker
Oh, my God, Freddie. Wow. i was i was blessed to have Phil realize that my passion and drive was there. i mean, I've been the most talented maker, but my passion and drive was there.
00:34:46
Speaker
And he he again suckered me to agree of you work for me and half of what you make gets given back to me until your school is paid off, which I thought, like, you know, why not?
00:35:02
Speaker
I took advantage of that. That took over a year to pay off. ah But again, it was a great opportunity. And I stayed with him for a couple more years after that, working for him, doing restoration work, custom furniture work.
00:35:15
Speaker
And then foolishly me, decided to go off on my own. Like, you know, just open the door and see what the world has to offer. And again, I was lucky because I connected with another master called Will Neptune.
00:35:31
Speaker
And Will Neptune was willing to relocate his shop. And he wanted to share a shop with me because we connected really so well and ah is in assisting all his courses.
00:35:41
Speaker
And i basically moved everything I had and started from scratch. Very green beyond, you know, I always had a fill in my back pocket.
00:35:52
Speaker
I always had someone to ask a question. i always had someone there to now basically like, you know, go figure it out. And next thing you next to you know, you realize that they never taught you anything on how to run a business at school. Oh, freddie we've had this conversation before, Pauly.
00:36:11
Speaker
So it was like, it was like, you know, go get an account. No one told me about LLCs, corporations, sole proprietor, nothing like that. ah No one told me, you know, how to price work or anything like that.
00:36:24
Speaker
ah Those, those are all big learning curves. The only curve that Phil taught me besides the fundamentals was like, if you're doing repair work, you never run out of work.
00:36:35
Speaker
And if you think about every joint as an hour, you can basically say like, you know, if at the time it was $20 an hour, which I was game charging, it was like two, four, six, eight, 10, 12. Yeah. $120. this okay? And some people would be like, yeah. And then you quickly realize, oh shit, they just like stole.
00:36:53
Speaker
They took advantage of me because they realized how difficult this blew up or repair was going to be. Cause then you quickly realize it's not hard to stay busy. It's hard to make money.
00:37:05
Speaker
You make a living. o Ooh. Yeah. That is, you know, that's, that's fucking wisdom right there, Freddie. I don't want to glaze over that one. Yeah. Like that. I feel like that was a fucking, that was a Jack Lake fucking mic drop moment. there's cthulu Keep going, brother.
00:37:24
Speaker
So, you know, I basically quickly just like dive in to try to figure out like, what do I charge? You know, you quickly start doing the math of like, well, I know how to balance a checkbook. I know how to budget to be able to understand what I'm going to be spending. ah So I try to do that math and figure it out. And every single time you get better and better. and But unfortunately, every single time it's a new challenge.
00:37:48
Speaker
You've never done this before. You know, so you kind of always kind of screwing yourself because even though you may pad it on, you always find something that needed more work or what you quickly realize. You go from a fully equipped shop, fully supplied that now you have to buy all these supplies and then you quickly realize that then it's difficult and very expensive to find all these things.
00:38:12
Speaker
ah But then, you know, you go from like, hey, I'm going to be a furniture maker. I'm now restoring furniture to an opportunity arose with a company in Connecticut. And I basically drove for about two years. i got a contract to fabricate pieces with this company for a a museum in in Manhattan, New York.
00:38:34
Speaker
And I basically was like starting all over again. It took me an hour and 15 minutes at least each way to drive down there. They did not have a shop set up. I set up their shop. i I brought all my tooling and knowledge that I had with me. And I made these amazing masterpieces.
00:38:51
Speaker
that I am extremely proud of. But again, i basically said, thank you for your scraps. I'm making you money. and And the experience I have was i had the opportunity because in reality, there was no money made.
00:39:07
Speaker
But I took it as an opportunity of like, when in the world am I going to make these pieces ever again? And these are forever in an amazing museum in New York. And i can always, if I'm blessed to have a family or I can share it for the next family members, but like go visit my pieces.
00:39:26
Speaker
So there's something to be said about that. There's a lot to be said about that. ah So, Freddie, how long did the restoration business go before you started to see the writing on the wall that maybe not, maybe there's a better path for me?
00:39:44
Speaker
Well, that was kind of the problem with my business. It was kind like, okay, you got 2008, things are crashing. 2008, things are crashing. Yeah. And there was an issue there with with getting work.
00:39:55
Speaker
So you further expand of what you're capable of. So next you know, i am making molding. I'm making cabinetry. i am refinishing. I'm doing touch-up. I'm doing a carpentry work. Now I'm like framing walls. And so I can go ahead and add millwork to it. I'm working on historic doors, historic windows. Yeah, you were doing everything. I remember. Yeah.
00:40:18
Speaker
You were literally doing everything. Literally doing everything. Crazy enough for like, you know, oh yeah, I can go ahead and mix the concrete here for this, you know, whatever the hell it was at the time. I wasn't doing anything and everything. But with that came, well, I don't have the tools.
00:40:33
Speaker
Let me just buy the tools. And then it's just like, next, you know, it's like you're doing like stone repair and wood repair and you're doing, you need, you need all these framing guns. You need all these power tools that you really didn't need in a furniture world.
00:40:47
Speaker
And then you're just you go into the conservation world. Then you have all these specialty finishes and specialty brushes and all this stuff. And you have all that. And then you next, you know, it's like you're matching old hardware. And then next, you know, you become a hoarder of all items because you're doing so much.
00:41:03
Speaker
that you quickly realize that you're drowning in the in in your craft because you're doing you're spread I'm spreading myself so thin just just to make a buck.
00:41:15
Speaker
And then you quickly realize that the jobs, the numbers are getting bigger. So now it goes from like, yeah, you know, three thousand, five thousand. Oh, you want to give me a one hundred thousand. Oh, you want to give me two hundred and forty thousand. But then next, you know, it's like you can't do any of the work by yourself. So now it's like I got to hire people.
00:41:33
Speaker
And then it's like you have all these like potential and then you quickly realize that no one enjoys restoration work. Like it's it's not furniture making. It's not carpentry. it's There's no quick return.
00:41:48
Speaker
It's extremely detailed from the minute you get into the, you know, the last 40 hours. It's all detail. You have to be super focused. You can really fuck things up. ah And then i quickly realized like it didn't matter where they were from. North Bennett.
00:42:05
Speaker
you know guys who were working in the field the age range didn't matter it was just like it was easy to find a carpenter the frame it was hard to find someone give me a tight miter that you know interesting you caulk it and fill it no one to see it for miles so it's like the mentality they had and i'm just like even the cats out of north bennett huh Oh, yeah. It's just like, I can't say all of them because if you're really good. Of course. We're speaking in generalities. Yeah. So so I will say that, unfortunately, a lot of them that I was interacting with um wasn't up to par.
00:42:37
Speaker
Because I put myself in, like, their shoes. i was like, i dude, I wasn't anything special when I graduated. So I totally understand where you are. And then, yeah, quickly start working with them. And I expect them to be maybe just as good as I was when I graduated to then realize, like,
00:42:54
Speaker
Am I somewhat special? Like in a good way? like so So is it in... in Listen, Freddie, you're special and wonderful, and I don't mean to degrade that in any way whatsoever. um But I'm also wondering...
00:43:08
Speaker
Is it like how much of that is driven by hunger? Right? Like we is sounds like you and i have both made the decision that like we're going to do this come hell or high water. We're going to figure out how to make furniture our living. um and And Brent, you may have had the same like feeling it like that thing of just like this is what I have to do. so I'm going to figure out how to do it. Fuck everything else. Right? Yes.
00:43:34
Speaker
And one hundred percent coming out of school, what I've noticed is is a lot of students, including a lot of people in the cohort that I went to CFC into the nine month with, um the overwhelming majority of them aren't in furniture anymore. And I don't think it's for lack of talent. I think a lot of them were incredibly talented. I think
Woodworking Education vs. Business Reality
00:43:53
Speaker
it was it was more just like a like a dream that then once they realized how much work it was going to be to accomplish that, they were like, well, fuck this. I could just go get a job and still build shit.
00:44:07
Speaker
Yes. So is that like, is that what you were experiencing with those students coming in? Was it just like uh, not a lack of potential, but a lack of drive to get from potential energy to actualized energy?
00:44:23
Speaker
100%. 100% accurate statement. Yes, that's that's what I got. And hit another roadblock when I read an article for by Christian Bexford in Woodwork Magazine, which if you know Christian Bexford, he's just like the shaker king. He has been producing furniture longer than I have lived and somehow made it all work.
00:44:43
Speaker
ah But in that article, he said one statement of saying that if you want to make furniture for a living, then you go to business school. You don't go to furniture making school. oh them so This is the argument I had with Bexport many years ago. but that's it Maybe that's an after show story. Yeah, we'll talk about that in the after show, Eric. So Freddie, freddy what was the what was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of running your own business and making you like decide that's enough, it's time to look into working for someone else? what was Do you remember a defining moment?
00:45:19
Speaker
100%. It was the year after my mother passed away. It was Mother's Day. It was my mother-in-law and wife ah basically having an intervention in saying to me that my work is killing me, that they thought I could not work more hours in a day, and that somehow I'm doing 18, 20 hours a day. I'm only sleeping two to three hours a night.
00:45:45
Speaker
I am going to bed after them and waking up before them or gone from the house. And all I am is a ball of stress. And the the tears of seeing my wife and my mother-in-law express that to me.
00:46:00
Speaker
And just thinking, reflecting of my loss of my mother and how hard she worked. So there was that factor, but they also the factor of, I vividly remember the conversation like a week or a few days before Phil passed away.
00:46:14
Speaker
And he told me that legacy is bullshit. Don't be a slave to your, to your work. It's not worth it. Live your life. Oh Oh God. And we're talking about a man who fucking believed in legacy like you would not believe.
00:46:31
Speaker
Until he got sick. Legacy, legacy, legacy. Push legacy. And he wants to be remembered. His legacy is everything. And then to have that phone call conversation and hear those words. Basically kind of like...
00:46:44
Speaker
Like the cannon just started bubbling, you know, it's going to erupt, you know, the volcano. And so it's kind of like, that's kind of what started. And then the wife basically and mother-in-law saying that you just can't continue doing this, man. Like, what are you going to do? How is this sustainable? Because what, what year is this? How long you been in the game at this point?
00:47:06
Speaker
Oh, so this like four years ago. Four years ago. I remember this. Yeah. Yeah. I remember when Phil passed away, but um so it was shortly thereafter.
00:47:16
Speaker
Yeah, shortly thereafter. Yeah. Okay. That literally that, that year, you know, my mother passed away December and Phil passed away in January. I'm having this conversation in May. So we're talking, ah you've been, you've been chasing the dream for at this point, you know, 15 years or so.
00:47:35
Speaker
Um, and you've been, you've been self-employed now for a decade. Yeah. Yeah, easily. Yeah. Okay. So self-employed for a decade and then trying to come to terms with whether or not you're going to carry on with the business seems to be a theme of the episode. Just pointing that out.
00:47:50
Speaker
It's fine. Yeah. Eric, you used the word chasing, right? Sure. And one of the thoughts I have for all of us. Um, Brent, Freddie and Eric, you have to talk about your business model as well and kind of your decision-making. But when you say chasing what I, what are we actually chasing?
Romanticizing Furniture Making vs. Business Reality
00:48:13
Speaker
It's a dream. It's an idealized version of life.
00:48:18
Speaker
Like, realistically, we don't nobody gets into furniture because they're like, I am so obsessed with crafting the perfect joint. Like if you're that if you're that hyper fixated on like the mechanicals.
00:48:32
Speaker
then you're probably going to get pushed to become an engineer, right? You're going to get pushed to become an architect or whatever the thing is. Furniture is a romantic endeavor. It has its story. It has its visuals. Like when when you tell somebody,
00:48:48
Speaker
that you are a furniture maker, they immediately picture something in their head, whether that's how you live your life or not. They immediately have an image of who you are as a person and what your life looks like. And I guarantee you, it's not what my life looks like, but it is what they have in their head.
00:49:02
Speaker
And I think that's where it all starts of like, we fall in love with this romantic idea. I don't think it's any different from when people are like, I'm going to be an artist or I'm going to be a filmmaker or I'm going to be a chef, like whatever it is. It's a creative endeavor that they fall in love with this, like idealized version of life.
00:49:20
Speaker
And I think Freddie hit that. What's ideal about like, what's idealized about it? Is it that you're your own boss? Is it that you'll be successful and make money and have a sense of control? I don't think the business comes into it at all.
00:49:36
Speaker
I think it's just, is it, is it, is it, you'll have peace Like ah this serenity of like, I control my destiny. I'm going to, I'm going to have a, i I can do this. I'm going to make a successful business. right I don't, I don't want to speak for, for everybody. And, and I think Brent and Freddie should do it any answer that question. Do it anyway. That's good advice. Fucking do it. Um,
00:49:59
Speaker
I think for me, like it had nothing to do with the business. It wasn't like ah I want to be my own boss. Like I was I'm perfectly content being the second man in charge and like letting somebody else take the heat for when shit gets fucked. Right. That's fine by me.
00:50:14
Speaker
um it It was like.
00:50:19
Speaker
It's this idea maybe of autonomy. Maybe it's deeply wrapped up in like the kind of the American dream. Rugged individualism America. It's that, but it's also like this thing of furniture is this perfect intersection of artistic creative expression and ah simple borderline machismo, like I build shit for a living, you know? kind of like You can, you can be an artist and a man's man simultaneously. And that's not to, that's not to gender the thing specifically. Right. Cause like, I think it does speak to a sense of ego and a sense of self. For sure. For sure. But I think it also happens the other way around where like,
00:51:04
Speaker
If ah in and I'm not a woman, so I don't want to speak to any females experiences out there. But I think many of the woodworkers that I know who are women exist in in the space of like they fall in love with the same idea of like if I can build an object, I can build my life. But then they also have the same fuck you attitude that that lot many of us do of like, well, somebody told me I can't do it because I'm a woman, then fuck you.
00:51:29
Speaker
I'm going to do it to prove to you that I can't. Yes. You know, so, but, but none of those things have anything to do with running a business. And I think Freddie nailed it earlier when he was like, you can learn how to cut dovetails till the fucking cows come home. Nobody's going to teach you how to run a business. That's the hard part of it.
00:51:47
Speaker
but shrink I think woodworking just inherently attracts people who like to learn things because you have to learn so many things and so many aspects just to make the simplest chair. Yeah.
00:52:04
Speaker
And as a result, it has this like natural on ramp to like, well, I'll make a business and I'll learn how to make a business now. And it's and I think it attracts the type of person who is always just like, well, why can't I do that? I'll just do that.
00:52:21
Speaker
And then naturally, well, why would I get a job? I'll just make a job. rugged individualism, baby. you do it You're like, oh my God, I'm actually really bad at that. But it's it's also a really interesting, like there's a level of arrogance there to be like, well, if I can make a chair, I can build a corporation.
00:52:39
Speaker
Like the logical leap is pretty wild, but we do it. You know, there is something about like, ah I just, and this is where the chasing of the dream comes in. We do this all the time and it's not just in woodworking, but but this thing of like,
00:52:54
Speaker
I am happy in this moment doing a thing. And if I could just do that thing all the time, then I would always be happy. Right. It's the same thing of like, people are like, Oh, you know, my vacation is ending tomorrow and I'm mad because it's not going to last forever. It's like, if you were on vacation for the rest of your life, you would be bored by Tuesday. You would be fucking miserable. And you know how I know that? Because all of the richest people are fucking miserable assholes and they don't have to do fuck all.
00:53:23
Speaker
Well, Eric, the thing you said is, is that it, I love doing this thing. So if I could do that for my life, I, was then I would be happy. But the thing is, once you start the business, you're so quickly taken away from doing the thing you love, the better you are at business, the faster you're removed from the craft.
00:53:41
Speaker
100%. Yes, yeah that is true. That's 100% true. And by the way, by the way, that's true in many disciplines. The better you are at the bench in science, like doing experiments, the quicker you have your own lab, the faster you are taken off the bench to write the grants and and speak at the conferences. You are not doing experiments. that just This is true across...
00:54:04
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the great ironies of our system is like, if you're really great at a thing, we typically take you out of that thing to have to teach each other people how to be great at the thing. When a lot of those people are dog shit teachers, you know, 100%.
00:54:20
Speaker
It's a real interesting poor managers or poor managers, bad at people like whatever their thing is, they can be hyper fixated on the thing that they're good at. And in the woodworking world, um the the other side of that frustration coin is if you're really fucking good and you decide not to run a business or be a manager or whatever it is, if you're just on the floor for the next 50 years,
00:54:44
Speaker
The thing that we have to contend with is, okay, I'm fucking great at what I do, but I'm not being fed projects that are interesting to me yes because I'm just working for somebody else. And so that's where I think the thing jumps in of like, if I'm self-employed, I get to pick my projects and I'll be more engaged.
00:55:04
Speaker
But do you? That's exactly it. Do you? I don't think that for me, it wasn't. I went from wanting to be making furniture to now it's like if I want to make furniture, I got to accept this ugly, rustic dining table. I remember that one. Freddie, I remember that one. and I'll never forget it.
00:55:23
Speaker
It was so ugly. it was so so ugly. it was hideous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what was the paycheck? Like it paid the bills, right? It paid the bills. Exactly. Eric, it was like it was like Empire period yeah threw up all all over a farmhouse table. What? Yes. It was so bad. empire You know, empire furniture style? Sure. Sure. yeah It just vomited all over a farmhouse table. table And that's what the customer wants. I love everything about this. It sounds like a perfect object. I remember this table vividly. Not in a good it was it
00:55:55
Speaker
It was a table that I was embarrassed to not even sign. I told him I signed it. Boy, I did not sign it because it was that. like I don't want to be known for that type of work. Sure. We've all been there. We've all made those pieces, man. Because at at the end of the day, like you got bills to pay.
00:56:11
Speaker
The crazy part is when I first started all this, all the famous furniture makers, Garrett Hack, Mario Rodriguez, ah you know, Gary Knox Bennett, Gary Rogowski, the yada, yada, yada.
00:56:23
Speaker
Every single one of them, they said, what are you going to next? I said, I'm thinking of going to furniture making school and starting my own business. Every single one of them said, don't do it. ah Okay. That should have been a sign to have been like, oh shit, maybe i should just go woodworking school and keep this as a hobby.
00:56:39
Speaker
and It's interesting because every one of them save Gary Knox Bennett teaches at woodworking schools. Yeah. yeah they're they're teaching They're teaching because they can't make a full-time living without the teacher. Exactly. ah so This brings up like ah a bigger... like if if If we zoom out from what we're talking about, 10,000 feet up, it's like it's freedom.
00:57:03
Speaker
like What does freedom actually mean to you? Will you get freedom as part of owning your own business? How much freedom, Brent, do you have as part of running your own business? And and I'm not, I'm not biasing that question. I'm not saying like, Oh, you don't have any, I'm not implying that. No, you can imply Cause it's no true. No, but in a neutral way, no, no, no. I, in a neutral way, like running your own business, Brent, Freddie, like how much freedom did you feed? Do you feel like you have?
00:57:38
Speaker
No, i'll I'll give you the real answer. um i certainly feel freedom. Like, I get to design. i get to go in when I want. I get the odd day off if I want. i i get to decide a lot of things about my life.
00:57:58
Speaker
But... What bums me out is is how little control you have over when your brain will just get hit with everything. And that could be in the middle of something where you you know you wish you were more free. like Are you ever free to be free in the moments you're supposed to be free? You never actually know.
00:58:18
Speaker
It's just... hey Hey, Brent, I know we've only known each other for an hour, buddy. That's not a business problem. Yeah. yeah that's fair That's just who we are as people. Yeah.
00:58:31
Speaker
Yeah, that's a fair point. I mean, I think when you own a business, you think all your problems are unique to your situation, right? And you're...
00:58:43
Speaker
constantly like you're bombarded with everyone around you doing regular jobs and thinking that it's different and it's probably not really that different i think when you reach a certain height in most careers you get the level of freedom that i'm describing but um i don't know if that's true I don't know that if the more success you attain, the more freedom
Identity and Fear of Failure
00:59:13
Speaker
you get. I think some people are capable of of seeing the success they have.
00:59:20
Speaker
as it's there, but I think more often, the more success you have, the more bound you become to sustain success. The golden handcuffs, so to speak. Yeah, and and that's that's a really hard thing to navigate of like, I see this all the time in in the content world of people being like, they have super successful channels, Instagram pages, whatever it is, and they're like, ah,
00:59:43
Speaker
I lost 100 followers you know last month. And i'm like, I'm like, bitch, do you have seven hundred and eighty nine thousand followers. What the fuck does 100 mean? Yeah, it's constantly the thing of like, well, maybe this is the end.
00:59:55
Speaker
Maybe this is where it all turns to shit. And it's that that anxiety of um that I don't even know. ah It's not, I guess it's locked to growth mindset. Um, but it's that thing of like, okay, you have built a business, you have employees, you're, you're, you have a mission statement, like ethically, you know what you want your business to be. yeah And,
01:00:23
Speaker
That it exists. Now you have employees and I don't, so I don't want to draw a one-to-one comparison, but um that it exists in those people are able to pay their bills with the salary you pay them and you're making objects that are repairable and sustainable. Like that's it, man. Like you fucking, you did it.
01:00:41
Speaker
You built the fucking thing already. You're living the dream. yeahp Yeah, I mean, that's that's what everybody tells me. But it doesn't feel that way. Wait, wait, wait, guess bre Why did you say it like that? That implies it doesn't feel like that. Can you explain?
01:00:58
Speaker
Yeah, of course. I mean, the the thing that i'm I've been wrestling with this year is like, who am I doing this for? Am I doing it for my employees? Am I doing it for my fans, my family, my friends? Because when I when i started talking about quitting, um I got mostly pushback, not like, oh you got to keep, you know, but honest, like what really? Like you're doing it, man. Like you're doing the thing.
01:01:29
Speaker
I have a very public, you know, persona that, that I play a character on Instagram and, and make things seem like they're really good because that's good for business. And I do enjoy that. It's not fake. It's just like, it's, it's one sort of slice of my life that I show to people. And so when I started talking about quitting, like everyone who sees that slice is like, you're making a mistake and they don't see the full pie, which is,
01:02:06
Speaker
that it consumes me. i I'm not making as much money as as I would like to. i have you know ambitions for my family and for myself. and And if I'm working really long hours, taking on the stresses and the pressures of all this all the time and not being compensated enough to move forward in life, then Who am I doing it for?
01:02:31
Speaker
and And growing it is the only option. And that has its own sets of problems. Like if I have three more employees, you know, I've been learning pretty fast that managing people is, I mean, it's a running joke. and Anyone who manages people knows it's it's awful. And like, I have really good people. So if it's already difficult, like scale is not,
01:02:57
Speaker
you know And then people, I don't know. that there's can can Can I clarify something? i I want to say, like i did say you're doing it. I did put it in the present tense. But hearing what you responded with, I think what I should have said is you did it Like it is, it is done.
01:03:18
Speaker
And you accomplished the thing that you wanted to do. And if you choose to walk away because it's not ah financially, emotionally, spiritually sustainable, that's a valid option. What I was trying to point out is like, you've, you've got a shitty decision in front of you, right? Like you have to decide whether or not you want to continue your business. And that's hard, especially because you have employees, but don't,
01:03:45
Speaker
overlook the fact that like you had an idea and you you you did the thing like you built the fucking thing it's there it exists already with or without you freddie so so uh i heard multiple people say this in podcasts and then business like lectures he says once you have made it can your business be sustainable when you're not there for two to three months That's like where your next tier is like you right you're at you're being able to produce. You have people lined up. Everything's going well. You have a product lined. You have orders. Now, can you go to France for two to three months and no, no touch base and see is your business, you know, because if say you get sick, yeah can your business run without you?
01:04:31
Speaker
You know, yeah that's the next big test. Right. that That is the next tier for me. I need to get to that point. And I don't know if any of your listeners ah follow me on on the internet, ah you may have noticed, like, I'm not as prominent online anymore. Like, we're we're running ads, we're running email marketing, we're running...
01:04:54
Speaker
sort of things that run themselves a lot. And I am testing the limits of like, okay, if I'm not showing up and making a video every day, like I did for three years straight, what happens?
01:05:06
Speaker
And, so that's kind of one part of it. And that is working. Like there are things about this business that, that need less and less of me. And in that comes this freedom to explore this question in the first place.
01:05:23
Speaker
So, you know, it's kind of nice to not make a tall video every single day. And I'm enjoying that. And, and like, I'm finding more love in the business because I'm finding that a lot of the things I've built do kind of work without me. So, yeah,
01:05:44
Speaker
Yeah, I don't really have an answer right now for if this is going or not. And I know no one specifically asked that, but I am starting to find more love in the business. So that's
Freddie's Emotional Business Closure and Newfound Freedom
01:05:55
Speaker
nice.
01:05:55
Speaker
So Brent, given that you accept Eric's point that you did the thing you set out to do, all right, would walking away from it feel to you like failure? Yeah.
01:06:12
Speaker
Goddamn, punch him in the nuts, would you? Christ. And, you know, like Eric said what my mom said, which is you can wear that if you want, Eric. Oh, I will. You didn't fail. You did the thing. Like, it wouldn't be a failure to walk away. thats That was her whole point. And, like, I hear that. But, like,
01:06:36
Speaker
this is me. This is the only me that I've ever been is the guy who runs Bigelow Woodcraft. And walking away is like As much as I hate to admit it, it's like it I have to reinvent myself.
01:06:53
Speaker
This your baby too. Yeah. I have a skill set that I can bring somewhere else and I can be a different person. And and maybe to the to the outside looking in, that seems like no big deal. But...
01:07:08
Speaker
to me, like, I don't know what that looks like and it's, it's scary and I don't know if I want to do it. Um, I sure love a lot of what I've built and it would feel like closing up shop is, is, yeah, is giving up on that. Even, even if it has already had some accomplishments.
01:07:30
Speaker
Now, Freddie, you did close up. Yeah. Did that feel like failure to you? Oh, 150% failure. 100% failure.
01:07:41
Speaker
So encouraging. What encouraging words. ah For me, it felt that way because um this was my passion. This was what I, at the time, i I was not realizing that life was more important than my work.
01:07:58
Speaker
At the time, work was everything. I picked it even before my own wife and family, which was not a good thing. And that was a hard lesson for me. ah But I felt that for sure it was failure. It literally took three or four months before i started, you know, after the hard conversation on Mother's Day and saying, yes, I need to search for a change or make a change. It still took three or four months.
01:08:21
Speaker
I felt like, no, I can come out of this. You know, I can I can do this. And I cried over it. I was angry about it. I was you know totally sad and and confused and didn't know what my next move would be. i didn't want to reinvent myself.
01:08:38
Speaker
But at the same time, I'm like looking at how much money I spent just in rent, for example. you know My last year, I was what? you know With insurances and two shops, I'm paying over $36,000 year.
01:08:51
Speaker
So I'm just chasing that horse, chasing that carrot. and I'm never getting it. So I'm doing all this extra work for what? How much more am I getting in my pocket? not Not really. I'm not getting anything.
01:09:02
Speaker
And can my job, my work or my business be sustainable without me? The answer was I figured it out. It was like 150%. be. Because no one knew how to price the work. No one knew where the tools were. No one knew how to produce it the way it needs to be produced. There was a lot of limitations that people didn't realize that involved knowledge or ability.
01:09:23
Speaker
So when it came time to make the decision, even then i was like starting off three days a week. you know, transitioning slowly and still doing three days a week in my own business because I didn't want to let go.
01:09:35
Speaker
And ah it was extremely difficult. And um I feel that I still have that internal battle once in a while of like, did I make that right decision? Well, Freddie, you've had a real sort of philosophical awakening over the past few years. I know you will, and we talk about it all the time. So you've obviously – like your feelings about your decision and where you are in life has actually gotten, I think, better with time. 100%. Yes. Why? Like hey you leave the thing. It feels like failure. You're like, God damn. Fuck. Right? And you left the thing. But yet somehow that felt – also like the right thing to do. Can you explain what your new thoughts are about why that was good for you?
01:10:22
Speaker
So, ah that leads back to freedom. Everyone thought that you flexibility, freedom, obviously it's your own personal choice. Uh, I was constantly reminded of like, you say you got, you run your own business cause your schedule is flexible, but it's actually not flexible. Um,
01:10:39
Speaker
And I was working more and I had like, you know, six days a week. And the ongoing joke was like, I just work half days. And if some some people think, oh, you work four hours a day, that's successful business. And it's like, no, I actually work at least 12 hours a day behind the bench.
01:10:54
Speaker
And I quickly realized that I didn't have a life. So what basically helped me was I realized I had full weekends off. That after eight hours, I can just flick the light switch, turn the lock, and I'm done.
01:11:08
Speaker
God, that's so valuable. Walk away. There's no overtime needed. There's no communications needed. i took holidays off. i have a either the The company I'm with now takes a 4th of July week off. The company's shut down.
01:11:23
Speaker
Relax. Christmas vacation from the 23rd to the 2nd, you're off paid. It's mandatory. Relax. Enjoy yourself. Enjoy family. And once you get that into your life, you quickly realize that there's so many things I did wrong and I have so much more freedom now.
01:11:40
Speaker
And then interacting with people like yourself and our some of our other friends who are very talented and they're making what they want to make.
01:11:52
Speaker
on their time schedule. You're not sacrificing design. You're not making an ugly, you know, farm table. You're making what you love. And even even if you're going to keep it for yourself, if you're not to make any money. ah It's something that you love to be surrounded with and that you can cherish and hopefully pass on. So there's something to be said about being able to do something you love even if it's now full-time because I became burnt out.
01:12:19
Speaker
But what I quickly realized is I wasn't burnt out on the furniture, which I thought I was. I was more a burnt out of business and dealing with people. ah So, so that brings up a question. do you find yourself now couple of years removed being, being in a full-time position?
01:12:36
Speaker
Do you find yourself back in the shop in the evenings? Do you find yourself back with that, that like lust to make, uh, an interesting or engaging object? 100%. Now, i don't have the I don't have the shop yet because I'm renovating my house. But the the passion, the gathering of the tools, the drawing has come back. The interest in federal furniture and inlay and veneer, which is my love and my passion, has come back.
01:13:00
Speaker
Which, it disappeared. It was gone. yeah I was like, i fucking hate this shit. And now it's just like... now it's like i love it again like i love my tools i cherish my tool chest i cherish my hand planes like i i used to i became one with the tools and then you quickly realize like fuck i got way too much shit you know also and then you kind of realize that you just need to go back to your roots and focus on what you really love love that freddie i've seen that through you i i this is all true i've watched this transformation eric
01:13:36
Speaker
The one thing we haven't touched about touched on today is how you run your business. Yeah, for sure. And you are another example in this conversation. Sorry, I'm still distracted by like the the the human arc that Freddie just painted of like you you spend all of your time, you spend all of your energy and your youth building and accumulating and growing. And then at some point, wisdom and age and experience happens and you then spend the energy to to rid yourself of the burden of so many of those things. And like, you know, like it's, yes ah so there's a whole fucking movie in there. like that's that is the arc of a human life right like you get to the end of it and you go all i need is like a hot cup of coffee in the morning and like someone who loves me to have a conversation with and like yeah that's it like fuck everything else it reminds me of that awesome video that could have been faked i don't know where the guy is
01:14:40
Speaker
about to finish his like spool of wire. Yes. Oh yeah. 40 years. That's such a good fucking clip. It was. Oh, Paul doesn't know it. I don't know. All right. All right. So there's this dude who's just like sitting on half wall. and he's wearing a Jets hat, and he's got this empty... These are important bits. Yeah, they are. What a loser. I know. It's a hard life. Maybe he had that sadness deep within him because of his Jets fandom. sure. But he's sitting there with just empty pipe
01:15:17
Speaker
And his wife comes out with the the camera on the phone and she's like, what the fuck? you Like, you're looking at this pipe like you're you're sad. Like, what the fuck is happening? And he's like, I've had this spool of wire.
01:15:31
Speaker
for 40 years. Like I've had this spool of wire since I was like 15 and every, every little bit, like I just take a little bit off, do what I got to do, yada, yada, yada. And now it's over. And I'm thinking about like how, how much of my life this spool of wire has been through with me. And now it's gone.
01:15:49
Speaker
And it's like, it's, he's having this really like profound reflective moment. And then his wife's like shitting on him because it's fucking wire. And he was like, that's it. I'm done. And then the internet's like, this is why men don't talk about emotions. wow yeah But, but it, right. It really is that thing of just like all this dude needed is like some wire and a thing to do, you know, that's it.
01:16:11
Speaker
Um, anyway, so yeah Yeah. How do I run my business? That's a great question. If you find the answer, please let me know. um No, i I, fell in love with woodworking um sometime, i don't know, 2006, 2007, somewhere in that range and decided I wanted to be a furniture maker and I won't give the the whole backstory.
Eric's Initial Failures and Business Philosophy
01:16:36
Speaker
But um effectively, I ended up at ah the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship doing the nine month program in 2012. And I got out of that program and immediately was like, well, I've graduated from furniture school. So now I'm a furniture maker. So I opened a business and immediately failed miserably.
01:16:55
Speaker
Like, you know, to the whole conversation that we've been having, I knew how to build furniture. A, I didn't know how to design furniture. I wasn't good at that yet. But more importantly, I didn't know how to run a fucking business. I had no, no business opening up an actual functioning business. So really, I spent most of my days just like making things in the shop and thinking if I made them and sold them on Etsy, somehow that would pay the bills. um Spoiler alert, did not do that. Um, so I did that for two plus years. Um, my wife at the time was, was working. So that's how we paid the bills. Uh, she was, she was a teacher. Um, so there wasn't a lot of spare income, but we, we got through.
01:17:42
Speaker
And ah I completely burnt out like it was miserable. I did. had nothing but work. And I did not make any profit either of the years of the business. um It was.
01:17:59
Speaker
I wanted to do it and I think I needed to do it to learn that I was bad at it, but it was a miserable experience. And by the end of it, I, I closed the business in 2015, moved back down to Pennsylvania and, and took a job again and, uh, decided from that point on, I would never run a business again. Cause I don't think it's suited to who I am as a person, which is kind of obsessive and without structure.
01:18:26
Speaker
um lack the ability to regulate, you know? um And so, oh yeah, I yeah, yeah. It's a real thing that we fucking identify with. Right. Love that.
01:18:38
Speaker
So I, I, you know, I was working at cabinet shops. I was fucking around doing a bunch of different things. um Learned a lot just from being, um you know, apprenticing ah from different people. And, um, eventually but when I was teaching and I was teaching woodshot for four years and making shit and and tinkering around, and then I got the Netflix show and then I had to be available for season two. So, ah my boss and I decided like it, it unfortunately didn't make sense for me to sign the contract for next year.
01:19:16
Speaker
So was just like, okay, I can either try to find a job that will be easy to quit if, if we get called back for a season two, um, or I could just give it a year and just like, see what happens. Right? Like I got paid for the show. i had enough to survive for a year. If I hustled some, let's start from ground zero. Let's see what I can build a foundation. And, um, I considered it, I called it a year zero. Like I, I had no intention of making any money. It was a, if I have to go back into business, let's observe both my tendencies as a business owner or as a self-employed person.
01:19:58
Speaker
And, um, let's, let's also just like see how how to do the thing. Like, am I a content creator? Am I a production woodworker? Am i a one-off woodworker? All of these different options were on the table. But I made a deal with myself that if after one year I was miserable again, i would walk away.
01:20:20
Speaker
How many years ago That was 2021. So four years now. Wow. Coming up on five years. Wow. And, and I, I made that decision from that point forward that every year at the end of the year, i would, I would take a hard look in the mirror and be like, do I want to do this for another year? And if not, that's totally fine. Like I can walk part of the reason I don't have employees is because i understand at some point in my future, i will look in the mirror and go like, okay.
01:20:51
Speaker
Hey, good run, you know, walk away, go do a thing, go teach, have summers off, make shit on the side, enjoy fucking health insurance again. You know, like all those things that you don't think about when you're like, I'm going to be self-employed. Um,
01:21:08
Speaker
So that was 2021. And since then it has been an adventure of trying to figure out, um, how to grow my business because, because I have taken a creative interest in learning how a business runs, how to grow it how to tell a good story, how to make content, how to make good objects. um All of that is really engaging with to me. But um I think the the bigger question is, do I find the adventure fulfilling? And if I don't, then I need to walk away.
01:21:40
Speaker
And this year was an interesting year, because I burned out hard. you know, midway through the year. Like it was, I got to June and I was like, I don't want to do this anymore.
01:21:52
Speaker
You know? Um, and then the rest of the fucking year happened, which was abject dog shit for different reasons, not business related. um and what Where I'm at now, November, coming up, you know ah I mean, look, i'm I'm a month and a half away from kind that hard look in the mirror, looking at what I want to do for 2026.
01:22:19
Speaker
i I'm looking for a new challenge um because i don't if if what i do in is the same as what I did in and don't want to do it.
01:22:34
Speaker
I'm not interested in in repeating, right? um And so currently- That's a good club. Yeah, well, I mean, i listen, i a business is a living, breathing entity.
01:22:46
Speaker
It changes, it grows, ah it adapts over time. And if I'm holding my business hostage because I want it to move in a specific direction, then it's a, it's probably not going to go in that direction and B I'm probably going to be miserable trying to force it in that direction.
Balancing Personal Life and Business
01:23:05
Speaker
Um, and so right now, like.
01:23:09
Speaker
My YouTube channel, I think i I've done all of the things I set out to do with it. Not that I'm going to stop, but i there doesn't feel like a lot of growth opportunity there. Doing the new channel with Larissa feels interesting and exciting.
01:23:24
Speaker
And if that means... you take one step back to hopefully move two steps forward, then I'm fine with that. it's It's a thing I'm excited about. It's the thing I'm interested in. And um if that means I'll do this for another year and then we'll see where we're at. Great. Then let's fucking see what happens at the end of 2026. Sounds amazing.
01:23:44
Speaker
sounds amazing I mean, that's the romanticized version of it, right? Yes. yeah hundred so Your highlight reel is good. and So Eric, you're you're at that end of the year and you're thinking us as a slight shift in focus for next year. it's a Nothing seismic.
01:24:03
Speaker
but Nothing seismic. It's a shift. But again... um i I was pretty intentional about not taking on employees um or or expanding too fast because once you do that, um and Brent, i don't i please don't take this as a critique in any way. This is just like my emotional reaction to taking on employees. um yeah Once you do that,
01:24:32
Speaker
I think you now have an ethical responsibility to look after your employees almost before yourself. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. You got to make sure that they, you can keep feeding them. And the last person to eat is you.
01:24:47
Speaker
hundred percent. And yeah. when that What, what, sorry no please go ahead you i was just gonna say that that pressure when you are feeling like you're losing your love for the job and everything that pressure is even bigger and it's like a huge chunk that that forces you to make decisions that you wouldn't otherwise make and Yeah. Yeah.
01:25:12
Speaker
Yeah. Well, I mean, listen, I don't have children, but I imagine like my life as a as a dude who can kind of get up whenever the fuck I want and like go into the shop and dick around for a few hours. And then like I'm like, ah, it's 4 p.m. I would rather drink a beer than keep cutting dovetails. So I go do that. That's different when you have a two year old at home and you're like, I have to be responsible I got to pay the bills. I got to get home. I got to make sure this fucker is fed and asleep. And then maybe I can drink a beer.
01:25:42
Speaker
yeah You know, it's a different mentality. It's weird. I mean, not for nothing, but my child made me dinner tonight. So eventually it comes back around. Well, 78 right off.
01:25:59
Speaker
You ageist little bitch. Oh my God. i hate Oh God, Eric. Did she make you dinner or was she just taking care of you and your ripe old days? No. Well, is maybe it's a little bit of both. She identified the meal on TikTok. She bought the ingredients. She brought it home and we cooked it together and we ate it. She said people, you got to eat your mashed peas. i'm just giving brent I'm just giving Brent a preview of coming attractions that, you know, he's got, he's got the good life on the way.
01:26:28
Speaker
Yeah, I just got to survive till then. That's it. That's it. Well, you guys another 40 years. I've heard. oh my God. i'm not forty My daughter's not 40.
01:26:42
Speaker
So I've heard three very different stories today. you know, um I didn't have a lot to add because I don't. I don't have this experience the three of you have, but I've heard three very different stories today, Brent. I've heard about, you know, a story of, i you know, I felt compelled to build this empire. i built the empire.
01:27:01
Speaker
Things out of my control went sideways. I've had moments where i look at a different path and very much think, why can't I have that? And then I'm reminded, hey, things may not be so bad if you just stick with it a little bit longer. You may find some of those tensions ease.
01:27:24
Speaker
I've heard Freddie's story. I fell in love with woodworking. I went to the one of the most prestigious furniture schools with one of the true masters.
01:27:35
Speaker
of woodworking and and creation, Phil Lowe. And you became like a son to him. That's one thing Freddie didn't say is phil Phil thought of Freddie. They became extremely close.
01:27:48
Speaker
Phil thought of Freddie as the son he never had. And that relationship was all part of, I think, the experience for you, Freddie. And and you you did what you thought was the right thing at the time, ah you know repair, because you'll always have repair there. It's not so fickle like bidding out jobs and furniture creation.
01:28:07
Speaker
And that led into all these other related fields that you you kind of knew what you were doing enough to earn money. And you thought, maybe I could try this.
Personal Stories of Growth and Fulfillment
01:28:15
Speaker
Maybe I could try that. But then quickly, that sort of ate, you know, it it sort of became, a in essence, like um a monster and sort of, you know, the tooling and all the different expertise. And you and you you were capable of doing it, but there's only one of you. Freddie can't scale infinitely. Freddie is a person of one. And the business, you know, became...
01:28:36
Speaker
you know So overwhelming that you said, I have to do what's best for my family at this point. And you you you made a very sharp, you know i mean, well, I'd say gradual, but sharp U-turn, in which case you squared your new philosophy like, my life is more than my job.
01:28:55
Speaker
and I've heard you say that. And that was like a beautiful art story arc to watch. And Eric, you, you, you, you talked about this story arc with Freddie earlier and, and Eric, you've had a hell of a story arc too. Like the three of you, what the fuck? Like ah again, ah like an incredible furniture school and, a teacher, you know, a middle school teacher for years and a furniture maker who had no idea about the business. And then a Netflix TV star, like what? Like who does that? and then And then doors that are open to you. That's all. And then successful YouTube, ah you know, content creator.
01:29:34
Speaker
And now, you know, I'm not sure where your path goes, but man, these three stories is just like incredible. And so I appreciate the three of you being so... Honest and open. And I guess from my point of view, watching these stories, what the questions that come to mind, and I think I would ask the listenership, if you know if you're on a path to consider doing this, you know what are you actually chasing? Mm-hmm.
01:30:01
Speaker
Is it success? What is that? How do you define success? Is it a sense of control over your life? Is it a sense of peace? Is it ego? Is it ego? What kind of life are you trying to build for yourself up front? Like we we don't ask ourselves that until it's like way down the
Defining Success and Personal Goals
01:30:20
Speaker
line. But I would say, you know, having the wisdom of all those years, Eric, you little bitch, of having, having, Having the wisdom of more years under my belt, being the oldest person in this conversation, you know, now I realize up front, I would like to ask myself, what kind of life, not just the business, but what kind of life am I trying to build?
01:30:40
Speaker
And is the freedom I think I'm getting actually the freedom that my I will be afforded given the reality of running the business? Well, and and can I just say, can I add to that real quick?
01:30:51
Speaker
Because a lot of folks, um, have this idea of what it means to be a professional woodworker or a professional creative in some capacity. Um,
01:31:05
Speaker
All four of us on this podcast are professional woodworkers just in different capacities. So don't lock yourself. Whatever the the mental image you have of I'm going to be a professional woodworker, I'm going to be i'm goingnna be Freddy fucking Roman one day. Like Freddy's path is Freddy's.
01:31:22
Speaker
You know, I'm going to be Paul. I'm going be copper pig one day. going I'm going to have a shop that's like no more than six and a half feet taller. The ceiling is going to look like a fucking mad scientist on acid works in there. And I'm going to have a cataloged idea of where everything in the shop is, even though it looks like the picturesque version of ADHD. Do that one. Listeners, do that one. That's Paul's life though. You know what I mean? yeah Everybody's path ah takes different turns and don't judge your own journey based on somebody else's story.
Paths in Woodworking and Career Changes
01:32:00
Speaker
and And I would say finally, if you do choose to change your story, Freddie, Eric, Brent, right? If you do choose to change your story, are you internalizing it as failure? Is it failure? How do you define failure? What does it mean about you as a person?
01:32:21
Speaker
How will you come to terms with it? Moving forward. You know, I don't know that we have answers. We've we've tried. It's an hour and 30 minutes and we've done our best to explore this. And I feel like I'm almost left with more questions than I have answers. for this episode But I really do appreciate the three of you being so honest.
01:32:40
Speaker
Well, are we failures is a whole episode in and of itself, dog. Like that's a therapy session. Eric. Oh, all right. Well, ah gentlemen, can I can I proselytize you real quick?
01:32:56
Speaker
can i Can I preach the good word to you guys for a moment? because Our Lord and Savior. This episode will come out in December, and I want to i want to celebrate our Lord and Savior, the coming ah of of William Teresa Burkle of WTV Woodworking.
01:33:11
Speaker
Have you guys heard of WTV Woodworking? yeah No. The miracles. the the i mean, the number of people. was witness a couple of Saturdays ago to him feeding the masses. In nome da Patri, felis Spiritus Santo.
01:33:29
Speaker
That was that was an experience right there, buddy. um He feeds the masses. He's he he clothes the sick. I think that's what happens at WTB.
01:33:41
Speaker
um And he he gives the gift of woodworking to woodworkers all across the globe. So right now ah he's running a lathe giveaway.
01:33:56
Speaker
What if it's not? You just said he's giving away a lathe. What if he's not? I feel good about this. I feel good about it. So ah starting on October 27th and going until December 19th, there is going to be a giveaway ah where you can register at WTBWoodworking.com slash giveaway. you're going to get a Jet Mini Lathe. Midi.
01:34:16
Speaker
Midi? Mini. I don't know the difference fucking 20 years into this. Size, Eric. Size. Size is not everything that matters, Paul, okay? Mini smaller than a midi. Could you just let me do my head read for the Lord Xavier William T. Burkle? He's so well prepped.
01:34:33
Speaker
Let him do it. He's well prepped. So he's going to, the winner's going to pulled on December 20th. So you can check that out. um He's also running a sale on ah chill epoxy products because he's out of the kindness of his heart. He's just such a humanitarian that he wants people to get um plastic into furniture.
01:34:58
Speaker
It feels good. ah That feels right. um General finishes and target coatings and Melbourne tool company available. Oh my please stop talking. No, no, no. It's good. He loves it because he's a generous, generous deity.
01:35:12
Speaker
um So that's WTB Woodworking in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. VM. Did you just use the word deity? He is our Lord and Savior. Praise be. Freddie, I cut you off. What are you going to say? i'm sorry i I thought when I read the message, wtb meant like water, then bathroom.
Episode Conclusion and Patreon Promotion
01:35:35
Speaker
I didn't realize this was actually. well we got to We got to hit the bathroom before we end the pod. well it It's a group effort. Okay. Well, water than bathroom. Anyway, speaking of which, we're going to transition to the after show. I feel like you know like to fit in everyone's story, we didn't have a lot of time to like dig into like certain questions we had. I think we'll explore some of this in the after show. If you want the after show, all you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon. it's in the show notes every episode. We appreciate it It pays for the hosting and all the other associated costs we have. And of course it supports us. We appreciate if you do that also. And and I just want to acknowledge that Paul and I both read the comments on Patreon sometimes.
01:36:21
Speaker
It's usually Paul. But like sometimes I do read them. He read them when Paul told him to stop being a fucking deadbeat and read them. Also, I realized when I respond on the WTB or WTB on the Woodworking is Bullshit Patreon, it just still sounds like I'm talking like you're talking because we talked from the first person. So I'm just going to assume that every comment that gets responded to is from me.
01:36:51
Speaker
Oh, OK, well, you could do this radical thing of saying Eric here, but I can't speak about myself in the third person. That would be wildly arrogant. The one time Eric logged in is when Paul shamed him for not.
01:37:05
Speaker
Anyway, we have a chat group on a Patreon as well. People have been posting questions and posting their projects and asking for feedback and criticism and critique. It's actually, I'm pleased. We've only made it like two weeks ago and it's pretty active already with people sharing. And funny enough, someone said, I only share this here because I feel comfortable with this group, which I thought was a great ah compliment. Yeah. It says something about the listenership of this podcast that people here are open-minded and constructive. And I love yeah seeing that.
01:37:37
Speaker
Never post your work to the woodworking subreddit. Just don't do it. Oh, no Just don't go on the woodworking subreddit. Yeah. Yeah. They don't know how to do woodworking anyway. Okay. With that, Brent, thank you. We'll talk to you in the after show. Freddie, thank you. We'll talk to the after Yeah, thanks, gentlemen. Thank you.
01:37:56
Speaker
My great story is today, y'all. Thank you. Okay, bye. Bye, everyone.