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Episode 49 - SELLING OUT vs. Staying True to Yourself (w/ Sean Cheetham & Kate Zambrano)
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WHO ARE YOU and WHAT DO YOU REALLY VALUE at your very core? What are your DEEPEST CONVICTIONS and are they clear to you in your life and art? Have you compromised them before? and for what? Money? Fame? Have you stayed true to yourself or have you SOLD OUT?
Today's episode is a TOTAL BANGER with special guests Sean Cheetham & Kate Zambrano, both phenomenal portrait artists who help us dissect and understand this important topic.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
Find Sean at: https://www.seancheethamfineart.com/ and https://www.instagram.com/seancheetham/
Find Kate at: https://www.katezambrano.com/ and https://www.instagram.com/katezambrano/
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Transcript
Patron Giveaway Announcement
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, hey friends, little preamble before today's episode. So we, Paul and myself are running a giveaway to our patrons as a way to say thank you, as a way to to give you something back for the holidays, as a way to to show our appreciation for you supporting the show.
00:00:19
Speaker
Now from November 12th to December 12th, any and all new patrons who sign up for Patreon to support the show are eligible to receive a box from either Paul or myself. And we will do a live stream for all patrons and we will do a drawing at that point in time.
00:00:35
Speaker
And anybody who has been a patron of the show up to this point is eligible for a different box from either Paul or myself. So everybody's going to get something. No, nay. Everybody has the potential to get something as a way to say thank you safer and for benefiting the show because we love and de appreciate you guys. So again, from November 12th to December 12th, any and all new patrons who sign up for Patreon have the potential to win an object. And that could be like three people. So your chances are pretty high.
00:01:04
Speaker
I would say sign up. We love you. We appreciate all the things that you do for the show.
Introduction to Core Values and Authenticity
00:01:09
Speaker
And without further ado, here's today's show.
00:01:15
Speaker
Who are you? Who are you at your very core? And do you live your life in a way that is consistent with your core values?
00:01:29
Speaker
What happens when you don't? Have you ever sold out before? And why? Why did you sell out? Was it for the money? Was it for the fame or the ease of a situation?
00:01:44
Speaker
In the mid-1800s, Frederick Douglass said, I prefer to be true to myself, even at the hazard of incurring the ridicule of others, rather than to be false and to incur my own abhorrence.
00:02:01
Speaker
Thank you.
Meet the Guests: Sean Cheatham and Kate Zambrano
00:02:14
Speaker
Well, hello, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of your favorite podcast. This is going to be doozy. I guarantee it. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Fine Woodworking, scientists by day, woodworker by night. And we have a whole cast of characters tonight. We have my boy Eric Curtis in the chair, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:02:35
Speaker
I did not see Frederick Douglass coming in in the cold open. That was a wild left turn and I respect the hell out of it. And we have playmaker extraordinaire Conrad Sauer.
00:02:47
Speaker
And we have not one, but two guests on the show tonight. ah Sean Cheatham and Kate Zambrano. And what is really unique and exciting about these guests is they are not our typical guest of a woodworker.
00:03:07
Speaker
They are, I would say, I mean, they're multifactorial artists, but are multidisciplinary artists, but I would say ah primarily painters and illustrators. Would you agree with that? That works. Yes.
00:03:19
Speaker
Excellent. so And I just want to start by saying, and and I'm going to have them introduce themselves in a second, but I just want to say the art that I have seen out of Sean and Kate and the fact that We have them both here at the same time.
00:03:34
Speaker
The art I have seen out of them is extraordinarily good. I ah describe them as my new art crushes. And I show anyone and everyone who will listen to me.
00:03:45
Speaker
And I show them all your paintings and your illustrations because I am so dumbfounded at how good they are. I am so appreciative of you two being on the podcast. Now, I want you two to introduce yourself. However, there's a rub.
00:04:04
Speaker
Okay. And going to ask you to do this. Kate, I warned you that this a question was coming. This is it. If you were to introduce yourself without mentioning your name, your occupation, or your hobbies, or your nationality, name, hobbies, occupation, or nationality.
00:04:30
Speaker
If you have to introduce yourself without using those four things, what would you
Struggles with Authenticity in Art and Life
00:04:36
Speaker
tell us? Who are you and how would you describe yourself? What other things are there about I don't know. I'm Yeah, left? I'm a worm. Come on That's all identify with. No, anything that makes me me confused.
00:04:56
Speaker
You go. Yeah, mean, besides that, I don't know. a No one. I'm nerd. Come on. know. Come on Occupation. Who are you at your core that is not like, I'm a painter, my name's Sean, i'm from Sacramento. I'm a shy middle child. Nice.
00:05:17
Speaker
Okay. And Sean, I'm going to press you. What do you really fucking care about? um Making shit.
00:05:28
Speaker
yeah Kate, that's it kate what really who really are you behind the labels?
00:05:36
Speaker
I just want to be a nice person. I love that. I love that. That's a good answer. it is It is something I think that fits her very well. yeah All around. That's phenomenal.
00:05:50
Speaker
It did it. Okay, bye. question. All right, next. We're done.
00:05:57
Speaker
Conrad, I'm holding your feet to the fire, baby. Everyone knows who you are on this podcast, but do it. I'm so glad you did not throw that out at me first.
00:06:11
Speaker
it
00:06:14
Speaker
ah Yeah, that's it's really tough. ah I would, um I mean, to be honest, to be ah a decent human being, to be a nice person, but... um I would, I would love to be someone who enables other people to dream big or two to, to, to, to try and, you know, expand, expand what they're doing and know that they can do it.
00:06:41
Speaker
I love that. That, that would be, that would be a goal, but that would be, yeah, that would be an important one. Eric, you've had far too long to think of your answer.
00:06:53
Speaker
No copy. Yeah, but now now if I say something altruistic like Kate and Conrad, I just sound like I'm trying to like you know just pretend to be a good person. and we all here no so you know yeah Come on, jump on the bandwagon. you know ah who Okay, so name, hobby, profession, and what was the fourth one? Location.
00:07:20
Speaker
i am someone who finds a great deal of meaning and value in ah close personal friendships and um supporting those friends when they are in need.
00:07:38
Speaker
You see, it just, it just sounds like dog shit. Like it sounds like I'm just making it up to sound good on the internet. No, no, no, you are that person. You are, I know you. Sure, sure, sure.
00:07:49
Speaker
i don't, I would also throw teacher the in there. that's That's fair. i Well, I mean, i was know as I was thinking about it, I was really thinking about like so hopefully somebody who inspires other people to find value and meaning through making
Research on Authenticity and Personal Stories
00:08:07
Speaker
things, like find empowerment through that. But that's basically what you said, and I didn't want to cop you.
00:08:14
Speaker
ay but Paul? Yeah, so obviously I had the advantage of of knowing this question and asking myself this question for months. And i would say i value authenticity so much in every part of my life, whether it's the people or the objects.
00:08:35
Speaker
I have a genuine curiosity about almost everything. And I believe in humanism that is trying to help others just because we're here together at the same time.
00:08:48
Speaker
i can I can confirm. you You value authenticity to a point where sometimes it makes people you just meet uncomfortable. Maybe she wanted cake. and I think that if we had the chance to everyone else went first and then we got to add on, I think would be different. But it's fine. Do you guys want a round two? Yeah, you want a round two. No, we're done with this portion. Nice. Being nice is cool. Teaching, inspiring. I like teaching, helping people.
00:09:26
Speaker
We're all ho together. Yes. That's good, Sean. Nice job. All right. So today's episode is about ah topic that Sean threw out there, which is selling out.
00:09:39
Speaker
That's how kind of like how we talked about. I said, Sean, is there something that you are just like locked in on? And he's like, yeah, man, selling out versus like staying true to who you are.
00:09:50
Speaker
And that got me thinking about these two poles, like these two, these two examples as two poles. Like I, you know, Eric will know, I love to like think in terms of like the full spectrum of possibilities. And often it's good to think about the two limit cases.
00:10:05
Speaker
So that got me to thinking about, well, what, what is authenticity really? Yeah. And what is selling out? Like, how do we define these, Mary?
00:10:16
Speaker
Mary, how do we define these two these two axes? And, you know, in in our early shows, we used to like to come with research. And I decided to roll it back and come with a little bit of research, but then I'm going to pass it all to you guys.
00:10:32
Speaker
So the research I found is by Michael Kernis and Brian Golden, and they...
00:10:41
Speaker
interrogated authenticity from a scientific point of view. And I was hooked. I read this paper. I was so absolutely glued to like reading this. So what is authenticity? Like we all think in our gut, we know what authenticity means, but scientists have a way of kind of breaking things down into sub parts.
00:11:05
Speaker
So, uh, Curtis and Goldman broke authenticity down into four things, four component parts. And I think it's, it's worthwhile mentioning them.
00:11:17
Speaker
The first part is awareness. Awareness and knowledge of and trust in one's own motives and feelings and desires and self-relevant cognitions. Like how aware of who you are, like what really moves you, are you?
00:11:33
Speaker
Like how good is your awareness? Like do you know your strengths and weaknesses? Honestly know them. ah That's the first piece is self-awareness. The second piece, which I think plays into awareness, is unbiased processing.
00:11:52
Speaker
And what that means is as new information comes at you about who you are or what you see, what you see yourself doing or environmental cues, do you interpret that with minimal exaggeration or distortion?
00:12:08
Speaker
Because if you're going to have a true sense of authenticity, like if you're going to really know who you are, like you have to have self-awareness, how do you get self-awareness? It's through unbiased processing.
00:12:20
Speaker
if it's not If it's not unbiased, you're feeding yourself lies about who you really are. You're telling yourself ah kind of ah of a fake narrative. That's what the internet's for, him man.
00:12:34
Speaker
So I think we want objectivity in analyzing what we see out of ourselves, who who we think we are. So awareness is the first. Unbiased processing is the second. The third part of authenticity is behavior.
00:12:48
Speaker
Do you act out what your belief system is? And Conrad, I know you do, big guy. ah Almost to your detriment at times. it could be.
00:13:04
Speaker
And the fourth... now involves other people and our relationships to other people. Do we make an effort to interact with others in our true uninhibited self? Are we really ourselves to other people? And and does that does that open up the the communicate the the portal of
Challenges of Modern Pressures on Authenticity
00:13:25
Speaker
communication between you? And you know it does, obviously. yeah I'm sure all of you have best friends, right?
00:13:30
Speaker
And why are they best friends? Because you're like, I can be myself with them. Right. That that's a key piece. So I was like, damn, what a beautiful framework for thinking about authenticity, awareness of self, unbiased process of processing of information, behaviors that reflect those two.
00:13:55
Speaker
And then relation, they call it relational orientation, which is basically how you interact with others with authenticity. Was this study specifically about creative authenticity or was it just authenticity in general?
00:14:09
Speaker
It's authenticity in general, Eric. And it it it actually was a very long, this isn't in isolation. They've borrowed on the ideas of like Aristotle all the way to, ah you know, Nietzsche and all the, I mean, they basically reviewed the full philosophy of like,
00:14:24
Speaker
self-awareness and authenticity of who we are. And this is their take on it. and i thought But I thought it was a really interesting four-part framework to starting the discussion of like authenticity. When we say authenticity, what do we really mean? And then once we take on authenticity,
00:14:41
Speaker
We can talk about selling out, which I think is a lot easier to, ah but but equal factorial. So Conrad, when you think about authenticity, because dude, I feel like you're one of the most authentic people I've ever met.
00:14:57
Speaker
how would you define authenticity for yourself? Oh, yeah.
00:15:04
Speaker
I mean, it it feels like it's actually a a blend of all of that. It's maybe it's almost backwards, but a lifelong fear of the idea of selling out.
00:15:16
Speaker
and that's like Like just knowing that, knowing that, that, that seeing it and knowing that that's a possibility and a problem, Sort of in a backhanded way, kind of helps inform you down your path, I think.
00:15:31
Speaker
Or certainly for me, I felt like it did. What makes you afraid of selling out? That's an interesting verb to use. um Because i see I see that taking me someplace that I know in that i know deep down. i If I end up going there...
00:15:49
Speaker
um it's going to lead me astray from the standpoint that I will lose focus with what it is that I'm trying to do in the first place. Hmm.
00:16:00
Speaker
That's yeah. it's I mean, it's, it's a, yeah, it it actually is. mean, to call it a fear might be a little bit of an exaggeration, but actually not that much. Cause I, it really does.
00:16:10
Speaker
I'm just so have always been pretty hyper aware of not wanting to get into a situation where, you know, somebody hands you a bag of money, a really big bag of money and you get tempted to, you know, make a compromise on what it is that you're doing or know that you ought to be doing.
00:16:29
Speaker
And, having the wherewithal and the courage to recognize, no, this isn't this isn't for me at either at this time or at all. So, Sean, I want to pivot to you specifically because you're the one who brought up this topic.
00:16:46
Speaker
What yes does authenticity mean to you? And Kate, please answer after, Sean.
00:16:53
Speaker
That's a tricky one because it's so weird. like It's hard for me to like think about authenticity and selling out as two different things. I feel like there's a scale and there's this like kind of there's my middle child. I'm not on one end or the other. i do i mean i do like Conrad, I don't want to sell out. who No one ever wanted to be a sellout. like But if you have a gallery show and you do sell out...
00:17:14
Speaker
of all your work, like that's an amazing thing. So that's like, it's kind of part of the deal sometimes if you want to make it, make a life at it. So what's authenticity? I mean, I don't know. I just, that, that fear of selling out is important. I think the, um,
00:17:29
Speaker
um those things you listed that they taught that, you know, in the studies, I think that's just like who you are, but it's so hard nowadays to, we're like bombarded with stuff in our face all the time to like be authentic people anymore. It's like a little bit more difficult because you, there's so many influences coming in all the time that,
00:17:47
Speaker
you know I think we all came from a time when it there wasn't an internet, so we can and can't live life through those experiences. But like nowadays, it's like this whole new world of being authentic is like, what the hell does that mean? like Is anybody authentic anymore, really?
00:18:01
Speaker
um So for me, yeah I mean, it is it is always like staying true to like yours, whatever, you know, like what you believe in. But some people believe in making a bunch of money and acting like a douchebag. and that's Well, that's authentic to them. No, that's all that's right. Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:18
Speaker
That's your highest value for sure. That's OK. Like, I mean, everyone's kind of built differently. Well, Sean, what what does that boogeyman look like for you in your artistic practice? like what is Where did the scales tip from i'm being authentic and selling my work and having some modicum of success into selling out?
00:18:42
Speaker
Oh man. um Well, I think that like, it's tricky because I've chosen to do this full time from a younger, from a, from college age, I committed to it. So like, you're going to sell out sometimes because that's the point. You got to make money doing the thing that you actually like doing.
00:18:58
Speaker
And you're always going to be doing that for somebody else. There's no way I could have had a career doing only what I wanted to do all the time. That said, you know i had this one girl i used to paint and like there became a waiting list for paintings ever once there was a waiting list i'm like fuck you guys like i'm not paying here anymore because i don't want somebody tell me what to do but i was like and i could okay well that's retired by now probably that's a really that's a really interesting differentiation so is it listen i have the same fuck you attitude so i'm right here with you brother But is it is it the fact that now all of a sudden there were people waiting on the work and you said, well, I don't want to do it? Or was it that you were done with that particular motif, that particular person, that particular avenue, creative avenue, and you didn't want to do it anymore?
00:19:45
Speaker
It wasn't that I was done. it was definitely, so I started painting like all my friends, like these the girls with tattoos and that became like a thing like 20 years ago and they're like, oh, you're the tattooed chick painter. I'm like, no, I'm not.
00:19:56
Speaker
i'll paint a guy with tattoos. I'll paint a dog or you've done a cat. And then I just, I'll put you guys on my pants. And I sold nothing. I couldn't sell. Like i i did a painting I did a show where I put only paintings of guys just to see what would
Navigating Client Relationships and Selling Out
00:20:11
Speaker
happen. I sold zero pieces.
00:20:13
Speaker
Sean, no one wants to look at dudes. Nobody to look at the mouth. I know. No one wants to them. But I do. you know I'm like, i think it's fun to paint anything and everything. so like it To me, I think it was it wasn't that I was done. It was the don't tell me what to do.
00:20:28
Speaker
I'll make it more exclusive now. Now you can't even have it. All right. But now I look back, I'm like, shit, i should maybe I should paint her again. Yes. Yes, Sean. You could have fucking retired, bro.
00:20:40
Speaker
But then that's selling out, right? that's the the I don't know. But then you also have the rest of your life to paint whatever the fuck you want. Yes! Right. Exactly. Thank you. This is the tension. Yeah.
00:20:51
Speaker
and So like when Conrad mentioned somebody throwing a big bag of money at you, if someone throws a big bag of money at me, like, and it's for something I know I can do. and I can handle it. and it I'm going to do it because we live in California. We've painted some weird stuff for money got bills. You know we're talking about that in the after show.
00:21:11
Speaker
We will definitely talk about that. We've got stories. One of my biggest commissions we can talk about. It was my collector. I hope they don't subscribe. Amazing.
00:21:23
Speaker
ah may okay but yeah i think there's There's two things I want to add to this. First of all, Sean.
00:21:30
Speaker
I heard you tell that story on a previous podcast you were on about the tattoo chicks. Yeah. And I find your tattoo chick paintings to be stunningly good.
00:21:43
Speaker
ah like thank you Many of your paintings are stunningly good, but something about the subject matter of those is is just like a little it factor for some reason. and Is it because you're a straight man, brother? like No, no, no. It's something about the maybe the um the novelty or unusualness of it.
00:22:02
Speaker
i would say the could the the the the colors. It's just something about it is visually and intriguing. and maybe Maybe it's because of a girl and and I'm not aware of my biological tendencies, but As a card carrying biologist, I like to pride myself in knowing my biological tendencies, Eric, Dick. So, um so Sean, my my very first thought was, oh no, when you were like, I wouldn't paint it anymore, i was asked to do it. And you were like you you got into a show and like so you were like the the sp that the the poster boy for a huge show in London. It was all over buses and like banners everywhere.
00:22:36
Speaker
And I was like, Sean, You should have done like five of those a year and just use all the rest of your time to just build guitars and rit and ride dirt bikes. Like no that was, it's not too late.
00:22:50
Speaker
It's not too late. And I do think about it now because I'm getting tired and I'm just like, no, It's time to time to like figure out what it you know what I fucked up and like fix it. Okay. okay and We're coming back to this when we try when we talk about selling out. Go ahead, Carmen. It makes me wonder, maybe it has to do with the manner in which the bag of money is presented.
00:23:13
Speaker
Because there there have been times, you know I'm sure we've all run into it, where you have somebody that asks in a way... I mean, irrespective of money, but where a potential customer asks you to make something and there's just something about the way the conversation goes that tells you like all the red flags are waving around because you know you just, it's not going to work.
00:23:35
Speaker
And so when you get into a situation when somebody's, you know, has a big bag of money, but the way they go about asking for the work or commissioning the piece that, that might actually, um,
00:23:50
Speaker
that can that can actually still work probably because if it's done in a way that is sort of is respectful, is understanding that when they really do understand what it is that they are asking and therere you know there's a pat maybe there's a patronage component. I mean, I think we've all been a benefactor of that as well, where you know there are people out there who do you know who have done really well in life and they enjoy what we we all respectively do.
00:24:19
Speaker
And so they're they're willing to put money into it. That's a different, to me, that's a different thing maybe than selling out in a more crass sense.
00:24:33
Speaker
So is it more just about following your intuition then and like feeling the difference between selling out and paying the mortgage? Well, that's what I'm just, that's what I'm actually just kind of wondering about actually, because, yeah you know, there there are cases where somebody, you know,
00:24:48
Speaker
will commission something and just that difference of how it's how it done, how it's handled makes a big difference because it can allow you to keep, you know, if if they say, I want this this this, this, this, and this, and they basically outline the whole thing, well, then what exactly are you doing for them? If they say, here's a bag of money,
00:25:09
Speaker
I'm curious to see what you would do if I say you know this one sentence or the feel of this or however they give you a framework for it. I mean, that's also, I hear your point and and I agree with you.
00:25:24
Speaker
I feel like we're talking about the absolute end of the spec. Like that's the ideal, right? And that happens a handful of times in your career where somebody is like, here's all of the money.
00:25:36
Speaker
Just make a thing. Cause because I trust your artistic vision. Like, you know, there's seven of those unicorns in your career and that's it. Sure. But from the standpoint of, of having a discussion about, you know, that's, that's, you're right. That's one end of the spectrum, but sometimes recognizing that far end of the spectrum allows you then to walk it back and figure out, well, where exactly do, what exactly am I reacting to or why exactly am I worried about selling out?
00:26:01
Speaker
So that, that I'm just mentioning it that way because it a Conrad, I feel like you're, you're mentioning it as a point of principle. Like it just like, yeah, maybe a the approach that someone comes to you with dictates how you feel about it, whether it's selling out or whether they appreciate your artistry and it's not selling out at all.
00:26:20
Speaker
Yeah. I, again, I'm just kind of wondering out loud here and yeah. right, Kate, you're not off the, off the hook. I was about to say what, how how for you and your work and your sense of self, how do you define authenticity and how do you feel about it? Is it, you know, obviously it's important to you, but give me, give me some introspection into how you see it.
00:26:46
Speaker
Um, I mean, like what Conrad was saying about like compromising, like where is it that you're going to compromise yourself? And I feel like every, everything I make, it's different, whether I'm commissioned by the same person or I'm working for like with a gallery, like what it's, I don't know. It's just like this little feeling that you get like, o like, I don't know if it's how you're approached or whatever. Like it's always different and it's always like just a new, ah new, not problem, like a new situation that,
00:27:17
Speaker
pops up and then you assess how you're going to handle it and if you do or do not want to do it.
Defining Selling Out: Personal Perspectives
00:27:23
Speaker
But I think that no matter what, like I definitely have, I'm really stubborn and really like,
00:27:31
Speaker
Just my moral compass is really loud. So there's so many things that I put myself on the line for it because I believe in it or things that I pass on because I don't like the situation. And I am pretty vehement about that.
00:27:46
Speaker
So I don't, it's, go ahead. What are some of the biggest things you care about most?
00:27:57
Speaker
I just, I don't like, exploitation. And I don't like, um like in a small word, like a con, I don't like the used car salesman aspect of people slinging work or using you to get to someone else, like just the the game, essentially.
00:28:21
Speaker
And that's where things for me get really heated, because I just really don't like how, you know, like Sean's like, has the rebel mentality of like, oh, don't tell me what to do. Like, I'm the same way. Don't ever tell me what the fuck to do.
00:28:37
Speaker
Oh, my God. How do you guys decide on what to make for dinner? love her too. She's like, tell me what you want. Yeah. But it's even like – She's vegan too, so we just figured that out.
00:28:51
Speaker
i'll cook ae Whatever I make, he just adds a steak. Add steak. Just add steak. That's the move. That's the move. That's a compromise. That's healthy relationships. Yeah. I mean, it's even like to the detriment of myself where like Sean knows everything. He knows about every supply. he He really does know everything about painting, color, texture, everything. Any question you could think of, like Sean has an answer for. But I...
00:29:18
Speaker
taught myself how to draw and paint. So I'm seriously so stubborn. We're like, I can have the answer immediately. But I want to figure it out to like prove to myself that I can do it. So like, even within the spectrum of our conversation of selling out, like, can I sell out myself to have this world renowned master artist teach me stuff? No, I can't.
00:29:39
Speaker
I will not ever give my opinion to her on her work or give. Yeah, Sean. Fuck you. Fuck you and all you know. um for it And I'm like, why can't I pay me to have an opinion?
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah. A lot of for his opinion. And I get it. I could have it for free, but I just something inside me will not let me do it. So I don't know. Just like the aspect of authenticity. It's,
00:30:04
Speaker
it It is situational. Like every day there's like 5,000 things that, yeah, like I think it's situational authenticity. And just, yeah I don't even have an example because it's everything throughout the day. Can I eat this thing without feeling like shit about myself? Can I actually let this conversation with this friend slide? Or should I tell, ah do I risk our friendship or having a fight by telling them that they hurt my feelings? Like on and on and on and on and on all day long.
00:30:30
Speaker
Is it, yeah i'm just is it paralyzing? Sometimes. Sometimes it can be, but you know, I, I have to be able to go to sleep at night.
00:30:41
Speaker
And so I am playing through everything that I've said. going to think about this tonight before I go to sleep. And I'm gonna I said such dumb shit. Hey, promise you, I will one up you before the end of this episode. I Okay.
00:30:57
Speaker
Okay, before we move on to a different topic, what i want you said it's so situational. like there's every every artists ah sorry Every commission that approaches you is different. Every ask is different. Every situation.
00:31:11
Speaker
What is your ideal commission relationship look like?
00:31:21
Speaker
I don't know. I feel like I haven't had it, so I don't even know what to say. It's the big bag of money and what you want. your thing. Well, even with that, because I have been commissioned, like, do whatever you want. Here's the size I want. This the medium. Go. And then I'm just like, but what do you like? Like, what are you going to around it? Blank white page syndrome. Exactly. So then that's even overwhelming.
00:31:42
Speaker
I don't know. The answer is I don't know. Okay. I wouldn't even know what my ideal commission would be. Can I ask you, do you feel like a commission is the best avenue for creative authenticity? Or is that immediately tainted?
00:31:59
Speaker
Because it's not like you have a deadline, you have a budget, you have somebody else to consider. an art director or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatever it is, a gallery show, right? Yeah, instantly.
00:32:10
Speaker
And especially if they pay in advance. I got a bunch of commissions for the holidays and I'm like... i got I spent that money already. like Yeah. Oh, that's the worst. There's nothing worse than that, man. I take only half.
00:32:24
Speaker
Can you pay me again? yeah No way. up and I need incentive. I take zero until it's done to avoid that. I don't trust people enough to take zero. I've definitely gotten it. That's fair. No. No.
00:32:40
Speaker
ah Yeah, we need to both be committed. You give me half. Usually I do half. And I'll do my half and then yeah then we'll finish. Yeah, yeah. That's fair. All right. So we've talked about authenticity a lot.
00:32:52
Speaker
We've talked about a ah conceptual framework for it from the research psychology literature. We've talked about through four, like, ah may you know, I viewed the four of you as stellar, amazing artists. Like to hear your views of authenticity to me is a gift.
00:33:10
Speaker
And now I think we could pivot to- Vicky. That was awesome. Get Vicky in here for a little voiceover moment. Vicky, they want you to say something.
00:33:23
Speaker
Get her on the horn. My man needs his eagle rare. um That's another key to a sustained relationship right there. Wow. she just She just destroyed my moment I was having with the four of you. Fuck that. No, that was perfect.
00:33:39
Speaker
I just feel very lucky to have you about it. I did. I texted her. I just view the four of you as very like exceptional artists and to have your views on this. I, I, I feel very fortunate.
00:33:52
Speaker
So that was the discussion about authenticity. So let's switch to the opposite pole, which is selling out. We all, we all kind of spoke to it in a way that was negative.
00:34:02
Speaker
So, um the one question I asked all of you before the episode, we we try to keep the episodes fresh. Like I don't like to rehearse too much. Like the first time you say something, it's truly magic because you're expressing it for the first time. You're kind of figuring out in your own brain for the first time. And so the way you express it is, is, is even cooler than the second, third, fifth time.
00:34:24
Speaker
So I asked all of you the question, what does selling out, mean to you personally and how would you define that term for you in particular Eric let's start with you I totally remember when you asked me that question and I have an answer prepared ah what does selling out mean to me well Webster's defines selling out as um
00:34:55
Speaker
here's what I'll say i think
00:34:59
Speaker
If I were to take on a project that somebody commissioned me to take on, um this is kind of irregardless of the amount of money.
00:35:11
Speaker
um If I take on a project and you immediately those vibes are you're going to do the thing that I want you to do and not take it, not work through the creative process in the way that you are used to, then that is how I would define selling out because I am doing a thing for money that is not nourishing ah my creative passion and um ultimately probably detracting from the creative direction of my career. All right, Conrad, what was your definition of selling out?
00:35:53
Speaker
Uh, it, it would be if if I am, if I noticed that my decision-making is influenced by the bag of money or by, or by a status or power or whatever you want to call it, anything other than the work itself and the work that i want to do to me, that's an indicator that I'm crossing i'm crossing a line or I'm too close to a line.
00:36:19
Speaker
Conrad, does a successful artist have to be impoverished? No, no, not at all. So the the the the other side to that is, oh I have continually tried to figure out a way to be able to do the work that i really truly enjoy doing.
00:36:38
Speaker
Hopefully find enough people that are willing to support it. And then that affords me to do all of the other shit that I want to make with with that you know baseline of of work.
00:36:51
Speaker
And then as time goes on, then you drop the one thing and then you focus on the next thing and they just you know tumble along after each other. that makes that makes sense.
00:37:03
Speaker
That's the goal anyway, or that's the goal. yeah that's the goal Conrad, you are one of the most principled people I've ever met in my entire life, and I love you for it.
00:37:15
Speaker
It's it's a maybe a blessing and maybe a curse. ah Well, but all I know is I fucking love it. Sean, what did you what did you come up with for what your definition of selling out? yeah Look, you're the one who came up with this episode. I know, I know, I know, I know, right, I know.
00:37:34
Speaker
I mean, I think... But it would be it'd be a sellout move to define selling out, brother. No, fuck off. No way. I'm out of here. You guys talk about it. Hi.
00:37:45
Speaker
Yeah, i mean, I do, like, I think the same things. I think, like, if you're kind of compromising what you believe in or or whatever, but I'm totally guilty of doing it, too, more often than probably not, because how else are you going have a career?
00:37:59
Speaker
I mean, maybe in some fields, but as a painter, as a illustrator, like... I was trained to sell out you know from the beginning. Yeah, but Sean, Sean, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sean, Sean, Sean, yeah i mean come on dude you know like mean, come Dude, every time you make a painting, yeah I feel like you're you're classifying so much as selling out.
00:38:25
Speaker
Well, I work for the United States Mint and Design Coins. I'm a full sellout there. I do whatever. And then they say, now do it better. And I have to do that. Like that's a hundred percent sellout. That's called eating, dog. Like that's all. That's eating, but that's the thing. Like that's where it is. It's like as a career, I do feel like, like selling out is a bad, as you know, it has negative connotations, but what does it come from too? Like where's like selling your soul to the devil whatever. whatever, if you want to get into religion. feel like it's compromising your principles. Robert Johnson is awesome.
00:38:56
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. I do that. And I do. And I have to do that sometimes. And that's... Which which which principle which principles of yours are you compromising when you do a job?
00:39:08
Speaker
Well, like for the for the... Let's say for the mint. like It is let's just... I and just don't like doing like what other people tell me. So like that's my own personal thing. It's like constantly...
00:39:21
Speaker
And then there's like the, you know, these these, like the art directors that are like, you should, you know, do this or do that. And I think there's, I don't believe their opinion. i don't think it's right, but I have to just bite my lip and do the thing because it's a job it's, and I need to get the
Balancing Vision with Client Demands
00:39:37
Speaker
paycheck. And like, you know, in the end, I know it, it might, you know, maybe if it got to the point where they made me design a coin of somebody I didn't want to design, then I'm out.
00:39:47
Speaker
Hmm. But Sean, I feel like this is a mixed scenario. like like i i from speaking From us chatting, it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you find the idea of illustrating a coin to be an important topic. like There's legacy associated with it. There's importance associated with it in your mind. So from that point of view, you're not selling out.
00:40:13
Speaker
Not at all. You think this is this is a profound opportunity and moment. All right. So from that point of view, you're not selling out. But then to take input from those or to take a type of input that you don't think is right and to do it anyway, you kind of do view as selling out. So it's it's a little split is what i what I'm seeing. For sure.
00:40:35
Speaker
And I do think like the job itself, even like some of them I don't like more than others and like I don't know, it's it's a tricky, like I don't really stand on one. i can't because like I sell out all the time and I and and i just try to like, yeah, I don't know. Like the coins, like it's it's different because it is a commercial gig. It's the job.
00:40:57
Speaker
It's the way it's presented to me. It's maybe it's for a fixed amount of money, which I'm like, it's like, I would like a bigger bag of money if you're going to tell me what to do so much or like, I mean, hard saying brother people.
00:41:08
Speaker
Yeah. Got to go back to the tattoo checks. I know. sure Can I ask you this? Like the, the, the coin is an interesting example to me because your name is not attached to it, right? Like it's a job you're doing for the U S mint. You're getting a paycheck.
00:41:25
Speaker
Pay the mortgage at the end of the month, feed yourself, feed the dogs. So how, what in your mind is making you feel like that's selling out when in fact it's really like, from my perspective, the way I hear it is like, as, as a furniture designer, as a content creator,
00:41:43
Speaker
And then periodically I have done jobs at cabinet shops to just like, you know, pad out the bills. And when I go to the cabinet shops, it's not my work. I don't give a fuck. I'll make whatever the fuck you want me to make. Just sign the check at the end of the fucking day, you know, because it's not my name on that.
00:42:01
Speaker
So it doesn't sound like you're differentiating those two things, though. It sounds like the the pride in your workmanship of what will ultimately be owned by the U.S. government and what is known as your work hit like equally to you.
00:42:14
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I think it's that like, well, I do get to put my initials on it, so I will get that. which is okay do We do get to go down in history. But um I think any illustration work or any commission work for me the almost any of it is selling out.
00:42:28
Speaker
someone's saw you what Someone's telling me what to do. It's just like 100% of the time I'd rather not do it. i guess that mean I'd rather go do what I want to do. 100% of the time.
00:42:43
Speaker
You give me a job. No, I want to go do something else. But like like, that's not how I make money. I make money doing things. ah people want me So, so it's, so it's, so as a component of it, the fact that it's consuming too much time,
00:42:55
Speaker
Like it were. Oh you're absolutely yeah, absolutely. For not enough money. It's like days. and It's not even a long time. Right, but it's too much but it's also too much time for the reward, for the for the duration of time that you've compromised.
00:43:11
Speaker
Definitely. like Like when we, you know, some of the big commissions I've done where i'm like, well, I don't necessarily want to paint this dude with these cheetahs. i but the But the bag of money was so big that it was going to be, so and and the I could do it so fast. I'm so excited to hear about that one. Dude with cheetahs.
00:43:27
Speaker
ah Okay, ki we can we draw that logic out to to its end conclusion? Because I could also see that mindset coming in in an area of like, Now you have a patron who comes in and says, here's however much money you need, however long it takes, whatever you want to make, go make it.
00:43:47
Speaker
And then if you, the like, you still can get to the point of like, well, now this fucker wants me to make it, so I'm fucking out. Right. Yeah. I might, I might do ignore Or in the end of it, I'd be like, that wasn't enough money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:05
Speaker
Okay. Sean. Why did I start this whole conversation? Sean, this was your fucking topic. I know. I needed this for therapy. I needed to figure some things out. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Kate, are you as high maintenance as Sean about selling out?
00:44:27
Speaker
Yes.
00:44:29
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. It's a little different for me though, because I am a woman. So like people are and have been trying to buy me like as a commodity.
00:44:40
Speaker
Like whenever Sean and I got together, I had like these solid collectors that think because they bought something from you, and they now own a piece of you and they like take, take, take, take. take And so Sean's like, no, like no more of Yeah.
00:44:54
Speaker
ah Sorry, can you like explain that further? I didn't quite, i like I get what the rough idea of what you're saying, but like could you be more like explicit about like what do you mean take, take, take? they you know want to know where I am, why am I not responding to the emails when it's like we had a business transaction, but now because people connect very deeply with art and they connect very deeply with certain pieces of art and you can never know when you're going to connect, blah, blah, blah, blah. blah but people connect to it and then you've made that for them. And so they feel that you now have a connection. And when you make art for people, I don't know, maybe you guys experience this too. People like to share with you their experiences on why they've connected to it. So they feel a very deep connection with you when you maybe don't
00:45:38
Speaker
reciprocate that deep well of feelings because they're pouring a lot into it. And this is a job for you. Not that you make it without, you know, feeling, but it's just, it's very different on their side of it. And because I want to be a nice person, I also want to tell people like, yes, I totally understand that. I've gone through hard times too.
00:45:57
Speaker
on and on and on, and now you're instantly connected on their end. And they really want a piece of you. They want to ah essentially own that piece of you because now you're, they're even more special because they have this piece of art from you and they are now in your life.
00:46:14
Speaker
So it gets a little more tricky because like people don't share with Sean that type of stuff, like as much, um you know, they do tell him how much his artwork means to them and and all that, but he's,
00:46:27
Speaker
I don't know, more aloof and not aloof, but just like you're kind not like reachable on that level where I'm like really trying to like have a humanistic like, yeah, he's very more, he's much more closed and reserved and like, and want. Well, Kate, that's how you introduced yourself at the episode that you're like, I care about people, right? Yes.
00:46:47
Speaker
Which I, like, it's weird because I also hate people. So it's a very... She does. I'm a... Wow. We all maintain... Contrarian. We all contain dualities, you know? It's an illusion. What's interesting to me is... Sorry, go ahead. Finish.
00:47:00
Speaker
No, I'm done. What's interesting to me is it it sounds... like you're describing the parasocial relationship that everybody talks about exists on social media.
00:47:13
Speaker
um yeah But you're getting that through the gallery space, through the clientele space, through selling your work. That's really, I've never, I've never heard that or considered how they would.
00:47:26
Speaker
So that like, that happens to me a lot. People observe me on the internet and then they like, They write me some very heavy DMs or emails and and sometimes if I don't respond, then they get angry and they send follow up emails like I deserve a response. And it's like, dog, yeah I don't know who you are.
00:47:42
Speaker
yeah You know, you're just talking yourself in my messages. Right, right. You're just shouting into the void. Well, you know, as they say, Eric, you you buy the artists, not the art sometimes. Right. So they they want to like like Kate was saying, they want to be of you. They want to relate to you. Yeah.
00:47:58
Speaker
I think that's true more than it's not that's selling out. I've seen people like I've had friends who like sold a painting to somebody and then they came to town or whatever and they couldn't make like they felt like they were owed dinner like to at least go out to dinner like you I owe you owe me your time now because I bought something from you and like turned into yeah this big thing. It's like no one owes you anything. You bought a painting. You got a painting.
00:48:18
Speaker
That's it. Yeah, it's weird. We're not in a relationship now. We're not get very we're not friends now. We're not anything. It's just a client yeah relationship. Yep. i feel like that really – Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead. That's definitely just like essentially like one facet of, you know, the selling out portion where it's like I know that I'm setting myself up for this, but I'm going to because I got to pay the bills.
00:48:43
Speaker
and it's Or you think it'll it'll lead to repeat business maybe? it'll you Yeah, it'll lead to repeat business. just want them to feel good about themselves and what they're like deciding on doing.
00:48:54
Speaker
like I get a lot of people also who, not a lot, but there have been a number of people who have you know come to me about... um very deep mental issues that they might be having and deep struggles and things. And so then I'm not feel really bad, like leaving them hanging. So then there's like now an added layer onto it.
00:49:13
Speaker
You do get people that come at you for that. should charge for it. So I'm seeing actually, I'm seeing a spectrum of answers. So Kate and and and Sean, you're you're kind of speaking, like if I could summarize the, the, the, the essence of kind of where you're coming from is like, this is a job.
00:49:32
Speaker
the The work is a commodity. You paid for it. here's your Here's your thing that you paid for. And that's that. Like the that you know the transaction is complete. And Kate, you're a bleeding heart empathetic. And so you can't help. But like, you know, you know I get pulled in a little bit. And, you know, now Conrad.
00:49:52
Speaker
Yeah, I know. This is interesting. You're fucking stone cold killer out there, that Conrad. Conrad. I know. You welcome. You often welcome that. Please. Please. No, absolutely. i mean, that's why I'm sitting here.
00:50:09
Speaker
Right? I mean, you're a customer, Paul, from a long time ago. And that has evolved into the fact that we've gotten or we've gotten to know each other sitting here.
00:50:23
Speaker
Conrad, come on. know i Explain. explain to the the The listenership doesn't know you're like who you are about getting... i'm i'm So for to me, the making the making of is I think how that's how I express myself and that's how I express myself to other people. It somehow feels like um that is... ah So the idea of putting a little bit of yourself in all of your work, I completely agree with that. That happens to me all the time.
00:50:56
Speaker
And it it it takes it does take something from you. So when I take that thing and pass it to somebody else, I just want to really know who is it that I'm passing it to?
00:51:09
Speaker
Because it it it can really matter. And it can be, that that can be the deciding factor between do I hand it or not? Because actually really- That's my favorite part of it too. That's such a, it's really beautiful.
00:51:20
Speaker
Yeah. And I actually really enjoy, i actually really enjoy when i you know, I will involve a customer in as much of the process of the making of their widget as I can.
00:51:33
Speaker
And as they're interested in, if they want to go into, go along for the ride, I've had client come over and hand playing their tabletop because they were interested in it. And I thought, why the hell wouldn't I do that? Because to me, i enjoy that.
00:51:47
Speaker
I enjoy that interaction and I enjoy, um, allowing them to see and experience what it is that I do and partly why it costs what it costs.
00:51:59
Speaker
It, it, it, it's a, it's a bit of a different thing. um you know, maybe doing more traditional art versus, you know, making making tools, making furniture. But I found that, that, the relationship component that comes out of some of those interactions has been incredibly valuable.
00:52:18
Speaker
And I've gotten to the point now where the work itself, it's not checking the boxes like it used to, it's not as challenging as it used to be, which is why I'm doing other stuff as well. But, um,
00:52:29
Speaker
It's actually the people that I really, really enjoy working for. And so that's almost the yin to the yang of what you described, which is just, it's just interesting to me.
00:52:41
Speaker
like that too. Sorry. Sorry, Paul. No, I almost, you know, through all of our conversations recently, i almost, and and I'm, I'm kind of following your camp.
00:52:54
Speaker
The work is, is, is fulfilling to me. Like it, it speaks to me. It's important to me, but it's almost a vehicle. to connect me with another human, which I find almost.
00:53:08
Speaker
Equally or sometimes even more compelling than the work itself. And what, one thing I noticed about you is you are open to the possibility almost in every single customer, you are open to the possibility that this is a quality human and they may bring something new to my life or my philosophy. And I'm open to getting to know them. And you, you foster that through the pictures, the communication, the constant check, the constant check-ins when you're making their plane, like, and and sometimes they pick it up at your house, right? Yep.
00:53:42
Speaker
Yep. And you become personal friends from that visit. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like ah I've, I've done, I've done road trips with people who started off as a customer.
00:53:55
Speaker
So amazing it's, I mean, it's, it's just a, it's a, it's just a very different, i mean, it's, it's interesting to me because I understand Kate, exactly what you're saying, because I'm aware of that side to it too.
00:54:07
Speaker
And so maybe. I don't know. I don't i don't know. I think they can clearly both exist the same time. I think they do because that's why I keep doing it because I love that. I've actually taken a road trip with a collector as well. Like he's one of my best friends. He helped us move. Like it it is why I keep doing it. I do love connecting to people, meeting other people, like listening to their, you know,
00:54:31
Speaker
stories, but it's whenever they start getting demanding. That's yeah whenever it's like Also, women have to deal with creepy dudes, too. I've gotten a lot of insane stuff. Sean's had to intervene quite a few times. If someone wants to be creepy to me, bring it. Sean, I want to be creepy to you right now. Bring it on.
00:54:51
Speaker
We'll all go. There's a girthy mic.
00:54:58
Speaker
yeah
00:55:00
Speaker
ah Kate, okay if if it makes you feel better, i think I'm more closely aligned to with where you're at. um and I did hear about those things.
00:55:12
Speaker
ah d Both Conrad and Paul, I think, are rare in that they are two of the people who have the most emotional space for new people.
00:55:24
Speaker
Like they are open to everyone and anyone, which is wild to me because that's I can't operate that way. Otherwise, like I'll never fucking make a thing. um yeah But yeah like, but that's because that's where my my creative expenditure goes is is into trying to voice things through objects. And if I am constantly getting to know someone new and investing in new relationships, then like that the water is is pulled from one well and into another, you know? Yeah.
00:55:55
Speaker
ah All right. So that that is fascinating. Like i see both sides at the same time. And I think maybe it's a question of scale because if you're selling a thousand items a year or 10 items a year or one item a year,
00:56:09
Speaker
That very much dictates how much emotional energy and investment you can put, right? That's true. Yeah, for sure. So perhaps so perhaps it's it's it's an element of scale of your own personal life, how much room you have.
00:56:21
Speaker
you know If you're fucking balls to the wall busy all the time, you don't have time to know customers. You're just trying to survive. Whereas if you're older, you own the house, the kids are grown up, you have a little more time, a little more, you know, a little more leeway. Sure.
00:56:37
Speaker
ah invite, invite that into your life if if you choose. So I feel like there's some like conditional pieces to this, a fascinating, uh, discussion. Um, the one piece I wanted to bring up
Artistic Freedom vs. Commercial Success
00:56:50
Speaker
is about selling out, coming back to the idea of selling out.
00:56:55
Speaker
Is it conditional? So for example, Sean, I'm going to put you on the spot because it's fun. um Let's say you're like, I don't want to work for the man. i Fuck this. It's not my ideas. i don't want to do it. you know I just don't want to do it.
00:57:11
Speaker
But let's say you have ah an intense need. We're going to lose our housing or my, my kid is sick or my parents at dire, you know, it's dire.
00:57:26
Speaker
Like the money component becomes dire. Does that change in situation now not feel like selling out because
00:57:38
Speaker
because the, You know, the demands have changed before it was about what I like to do and my art. And then it's like, oh shit. My kid needs this treatment.
00:57:50
Speaker
Suddenly money becomes an unequivocally important thing. Are you still selling out if the condition changes?
00:58:00
Speaker
Oh, for sure. I mean, no, I mean, it's it is conditional. I'll rob a fucking bank if I need the money. like what don you know like You know what I mean? like like get by Any of the audience who's listening to law Sean does not really mean that. Purely metaphorical. Purely metaphorical. I would.
00:58:21
Speaker
Nowadays, it's not as easy as like Heat, the great movie. um But no, for sure. like But I've also had a career. Like my whole career, I've been at this for over 20 years. I taught for 20 something years. I started showing in whatever, early 2000s.
00:58:36
Speaker
I've been living practically month to month for that 25 years. so like... and so like ah I'll take the job but because I have the bills. I've got bills. I've got the ex-wife bills. I've got the you know California bills right now. I've got taxes. I've got all that stuff. so like There's always an aspect of me having to sell out. i mean It's just the way it is. but Is it selling out, Sean? Sean, sean if you've got to pay your bills, is that selling out?
00:59:03
Speaker
I think so. I don't know. he want to do it, then yeah. Because I don't want to do it. But it's fine. But it's fine. It's selling out that's acceptable, right? But it's still, to me, it is selling out. If I could sit at home and be like, you know, like so like, and just do the work, never go on social media, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even share it. I don't give a shit about sharing my work other than like to try and get more work.
00:59:21
Speaker
Yeah. I would stay home, I would work, um make whatever I wanted. i would be doing it all day, every every day. i wouldn't sit around. I wouldn't work for the Mint.
00:59:33
Speaker
I wouldn't do commissions. I wouldn't teach. I'd just be making shit. So that's... and So many of that to is all selling out. And so what would you do if if you could have that perfect scenario and you could make as all the shit that you wanted to make, as much of it as you wanted, and you did it, what would what would you do with it? Where would it go?
00:59:53
Speaker
Would you be interested? I don't even care. It'd go into the storage with everything else I've made, I guess. So it's not about like... To me, it's not like about always getting it out there. It's about doing the thing and making it. You should really come over and see all the things. Like I do. There's just many things. Like I'm a mess. Like I do engraving like Paula talked about. I dabble in woodworking. I blacksmith and do knife making. do – I'm super obsessed with pizza and about to start a pizza business. I'm you know doing the mint stuff. I do gallery work. I do teaching.
01:00:25
Speaker
you know I travel for workshops. I do in-person teaching. I what else. And then every two weeks he goes I'd fly to, I'd drive to see my sun. Like I would chill out and just keep making what I made it without, I wouldn't care. Like I'd just give it away. Honestly, I'd be fine giving it away.
01:00:39
Speaker
If I didn't. Yeah. Like that'd be cool. I like people having my stuff and I'm not into necessarily hoarding, hoarding. i don't, I don't like my own work. Like I don't care. I always think I can do better, but I would be making and then just giving it away. and That'd be great.
01:00:52
Speaker
I'm fine. So is it a you'd still, you'd still be making and that's the important thing. be completely. Like that's the thing that drives Constantly. Yeah, that's all I want to How many things, this is this is what I'm wondering right now. Listen, you talk about how everything is selling out effectively is what you're saying.
01:01:07
Speaker
And you're making money, I guess. Anytime you pay your bills, you're a goddamn sellout. um How many pieces have you made in the entirety of your career over the last 25 plus years?
01:01:19
Speaker
that you felt were that that sold specifically that aren't sitting in a storage unit somewhere, um, that you felt were authentic and we're not selling out.
01:01:32
Speaker
I'd really have to go look because there's probably been thousands of pieces because if it if I did it for gallery show, I was thinking about money. If I did it for commission, I was doing – trying to please them and so in illustration work. I definitely like – all the the female, the girl tattoo paintings, that was me just painting my friends at the time that that that I was hanging out with. So that's authentic, Sean. Yeah.
01:01:51
Speaker
That was authentic wasn't – That's authentic. You just happened to sell it. I didn't even – and I didn't have a gallery. So like they were done – the intention of them wasn't necessarily to sell them. But at the same time, it's like I know a pretty girl is going to sell and I know tattoos – at that time, tattoos on a girl in a painting were – In a classical way. it We're different, which nowadays it's everyone fucking does. It's not unique anymore. Did you know that though at the time?
01:02:15
Speaker
Did you know, as you started that series that you were like, ah, everybody loves the female form. People love tattoo girls. It might sell. Or was it just a thing where you were like, this is the thing I got to do.
01:02:26
Speaker
It was more of this thing I got to do. it made sense to paint things that meant something to me because I spent a lot of time in classes painting models and then they're like dressed in like armor and shit. Like what do we, like what year is it? You know? But I love armor.
01:02:38
Speaker
Don't get me wrong. I'll but i will be making armor on my days off too. and so and so every had a so I'd be at the Renaissance fair. Yeah. Swords, armor, all that chain mail.
01:02:48
Speaker
Um, but So you'd be a cosplayer if you were independently wealthy. Probably. Marper, yeah. Yeah. I have even looked into a medieval times was hiring. I'm like, okay, all right. Maybe we can get a job.
01:03:03
Speaker
Medieval times. Like a world's renowned painter's like, yeah, medieval times, let's go. Fucking drumstick and a stein of beer. That's how you know he's living his bed. When we hear that Sean got that job at medieval times, we know.
01:03:17
Speaker
He's living his best fucking life. Yeah. yeah thats going That's his fucking Cancun. He's like, find me in the arena, baby.
01:03:27
Speaker
Cancun. ah Okay. So anyway, so you made thousands of pieces and how many of these do you feel like weren't selling out?
01:03:41
Speaker
A handful? Probably a very small handful, yeah, for sure. Because every once in a while, it's like... Sean, what you mean by that is the intention while making it was totally pure, and it just happened to sell later. You had no idea it would sell.
01:03:56
Speaker
Is that what you be yeah that's i mean? Yeah. I would say when I was young in in my career and like hungry to have a career, like I'm thinking about that. Absolutely. I'm not i'm not like, oh, I'm just a free artist that doesn't need to make a living. It's like, holy shit, I'm out of school.
01:04:12
Speaker
I've got no safety net, and now I've got to make money doing a thing that I like, happened to be I liked a thing that was unique. But there was always the intention of trying to sell all of it and make a lot of money. right, Sean, I have a counterpoint.
01:04:28
Speaker
You and I are making cabinet together, right? Yeah. It's going to be a gothic style cabinet with paintings. Right. And you and I are all all over the moon about the possibilities. We talk about it every day.
01:04:41
Speaker
We send messages back and forth. The possibilities every day. We know we're probably going to sell it. Yeah. But I feel. Don't put that in his head, Paul. What are you doing? I'm going to ruin it. You just fucked it up. Come on, buddy.
01:04:54
Speaker
Let's make that money. I know some people with some fat bags of money we can put in.
01:05:06
Speaker
I feel, oh God. Really? But no, feel i well i told you I didn't want to sell it. I know, but like I figured like you got bills to pay. let's Let's sell it and we can make another one. All right, anyway, my question is I feel as though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you and i our intentions are absolutely pure.
01:05:29
Speaker
i am not making this based on what I think is going to sell. I am making it in 100% of what I and you think is fucking cool.
01:05:40
Speaker
yeah Is that selling out? No, no. And I, and I, my intentions on this were a hundred percent not to sell it. It was just like this cool thing. Let's see what we can do. But even though we're going to sell it.
01:05:51
Speaker
Yeah. Well, but in the beginning I told you, like I said, I didn't want to. So my intention going in was definitely like, let's make the coolest thing that we've ever made that we'll like. But now as time's passed and we've thought about other stuff, I'm okay with it being for sale. Cause I thought, well, I don't have any places to keep it.
01:06:08
Speaker
Okay. But is that selling out? I mean, if I change the design now and I start thinking about what people will buy, yes. Then i'm selling Don't you fucking dare. I know. You don't have to worry about that with me.
01:06:23
Speaker
Listen, you listen to me right now. tattooed girls on this at all. We might put one on a seat. Yeah, on the inside.
01:06:34
Speaker
but Listen, if you stay true to who you are, I think in essence, it will be even more saleable than had you engineered it. think so.
01:06:46
Speaker
I think so. some ways. in As long as it's not a dude. Right. see But at that time, I was like, I just want to pay my guy friends, you know, when that happened. And so I was being very true to myself. And I got a lot of good responses on the work. People really like them. And over the years, I've had people be like, someday I'm going to buy that. Thank some days not here yet so um but those you know i have all those pieces left like they they're the ones that i felt the most proud of at that point my career ah never sold them i think they're still fucking cool but ain't no one buying i mean so i agree i agree think probably the best four or five pieces i've ever made in my entire career every one of them is in this house
01:07:28
Speaker
because like nobody nobody buys those you know and that's but but i do think what happens is they see those and then maybe they lodge in their brain maybe they sit around for a few years and then a few years down the road they commission you to make something else and then we both win because i got to make a speculative piece that i needed to get out and exist in the world and then you also come back to me later on and commission me to do something new and interesting thing that's related to that idea And you sold out. perfect commission I mean, I sold out years ago. um Yeah. That only fans pays the bills, baby. that's right All right. Last question about selling out.
01:08:07
Speaker
All right. So it's kind of a utilitarian question. Um, Is it selling out if you compromise your artistic vision to create a product that will bring bring happiness to millions, let's say?
01:08:23
Speaker
Like if if you could make this slight change, it would bring happiness to millions of people. Whereas if you keep it 100% pure to your vision, it might only reach a few.
01:08:38
Speaker
what is this? The fucking train paradox out here? Like you pull the lever and you save one person, but kill 10. Kate, what do you, what you say? Yes, it's still selling out.
01:08:50
Speaker
You change something about your inception. yeah fuck those people that you made happy. Like, I'll do it and I'll be so happy. I'm like, yay, I saved the train with all the people. But like, it wasn't my original thought.
01:09:02
Speaker
So like the inception is different. Still great. I got the money. Everyone's saved. No one died. Everyone's happy. But it is still selling out because I had to change it. But it's not bad. Not all selling out is bad.
01:09:14
Speaker
Yeah, right. Like selling out doesn't have to be bad. It doesn't have to be bad. Oh, please. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Whoa. That's a new thought. Please develop that. What do you mean selling it? Like it's the way we've been talking. Selling out is like selling your soul to the devil. What do you mean it's not bad?
01:09:29
Speaker
Yeah, but if you got to pay bills. Yeah, like if you got to support a child, it would be bad to let them starve to stay true to you. be worse It would be worse. yeah yeah So that's it would be much worse. And that's the point is that we live in a society where we need money and we need to make money. And if we want to do art all the time, then we got to use that to make money. Then you're going to have to do a little bit of things you don't want to do.
01:09:54
Speaker
Yeah. And it's a scale to like it's a it's a spectrum of like what you can and cannot live with. Like, did I have to change a little bit or did I change a lot? And then now are you asking a lot more from me? Like, it's just. And are you aware of that you're doing it yeah or are you just loving the fact that you're doing? Yeah. like Everyone loves me now. awareness thing you talked about in the beginning.
01:10:13
Speaker
like Wow. oh wait There's two questions. eric Sorry, Eric, I saw you queuing up for a base hit. I'll put it back in the pocket. Okay. There's two questions.
01:10:23
Speaker
ah First of all, I want all four of you to tell me where on the spectrum, like you you said, it's it's a sliding scale how often you sell out right? Right.
01:10:36
Speaker
it's it's Where are you on that spectrum? Let's start with that. How often do you feel like you're selling out? Conrad, you go first. How often do you feel like you sell out? ah I know I must. Zero. It's not zero.
01:10:50
Speaker
but It's not zero. It's the most pure man we have left on the North American continent. Yeah, no. it's one it's the most pure man
01:11:04
Speaker
yeah no i mean Yeah, not I try to avoid it as much as I can, but there's, of course, it happens. Like you you have to make those decisions. And it ah that's why earlier on I said the ask, the manner in which it's approached does really influence if I'm going to will if i'm going to do it or not.
01:11:24
Speaker
And if it's yeah done respectfully. And the other thing is that if it's also if it's also done that kind of checks some curiosity buttons in me, like I've had people...
01:11:35
Speaker
you know, kind of, you know, kind of press the big red shiny button just to kind of see what happens. And they know that the effect that it's going to have is, oh shit, this could be interesting. And then you just you just go.
01:11:46
Speaker
Right. So that's that's the other side of it where, yeah, I in a way I'm ah I'm doing a job like I'm doing work for somebody. So I by its very nature, I am compromising. I am selling out. But the circumstances and the parameters of it are very agreeable.
01:12:05
Speaker
And it's not a money thing. It's just, yeah, this person, what they're interested in, i think that's an interesting exercise. I'm curious to see where that could go. i like I like them as people. i i I think I'd like to work for them and with them.
01:12:20
Speaker
So yeah, that's a green light for me. But so that there is a form of selling out that's happening there because I am, I'm allowing somebody else to nudge me along. But sometimes that can actually be, it can lead to stuff that I'm intrigued enough to to be curious. I'm curious enough to allow that to happen sometimes if if the circumstances are right.
01:12:42
Speaker
All right, so i need I need two things. I need to say one thing and ask you another thing. The thing I want to say is having someone ask you to do something is not, at least in my definition, selling out. Eric, ah you're nodding.
01:12:56
Speaker
I agree. I agree wholeheartedly. What that is is like, that's just them giving you the size of the canvas. You know, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fair enough. That's not selling out to me. They say I want a sushi board and I'm thinking of of like some sort of ocean theme.
01:13:11
Speaker
I welcome that input because the white page sim syndrome is overwhelming sometimes. Just a little bit of direction. I welcome that is not selling out.
01:13:22
Speaker
I am happy to to flex my artistic muscles in that vein. ah it's It's without restriction. It's just like an ocean theme. Jesus Christ. It must be 5 billion ocean themes one could we could try. like sure It's not like they're limiting me or telling me who I am as an artist or what to do. I don't view that as selling out at all.
01:13:42
Speaker
I view that as helpful direction. And from that point of view, our designers, e Conrad, yeah I know you feel this, designers are solving problems, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are 100% of designers selling out by that definition, meaning someone tells them what to do?
01:14:00
Speaker
No. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think maybe that definition of like someone told me to do it and or it gave me any any input is a little... it i think I think it depends a little bit too, though, on what maybe hits that creative red shiny button, right? Because part of it is the... you know I mean, that was my training was in graphic design.
01:14:20
Speaker
And so... You spent a lot of time trying to figure out what the customer or client's parameters are and then figure out within all of those confines, how do you, A, figure out what it is that they actually want? Because most of the time they're not clear on what they want.
01:14:36
Speaker
And then do something creative within those confines.
Designers, Ads, and The Spectrum of Selling Out
01:14:40
Speaker
So that's ah that's often that's often what a designer is having to deal with. Okay. So ask you on the spot, are all designer sellouts?
01:14:49
Speaker
No. I don't think so. So we're having a difference in definition of what selling out means here. like well i think youre I think part of it is the positive. ne I mean, but like is is selling out.
01:15:02
Speaker
We all are talking about it as though it's a negative connotation. and I love selling it out. And most often that's the connotation it has. But I think there are cases and instances where it maybe actually can have a positive connotation to it.
01:15:16
Speaker
Yeah. That's super interesting. Okay. And the second part was give me a fucking percentage. Not a long answer. What percent of the time do you sell out Conrad?
01:15:27
Speaker
Under 50 for sure. i don't know. Oh God, you're way under 50. Get out here. Yeah. I don't know. and Again, I'm having to rethink all of this in light of this whole conversation. That's the point of this podcast. Eric, what percent are you?
01:15:43
Speaker
Oh, um, i don't know. ah like looking at it purely logically from a business standpoint, Somewhere probably around 70% to 80% of my business is YouTube and social media. So if we're going to, by all of the definitions I've heard so far, it seems as though I would have to say at least that percentage is about house selling out. What percent do you feel that you compromise your own principles? I feel like it, it but well, compromise
01:16:17
Speaker
like I don't feel I ever compromise. I feel I make choices. um And there are projects I've made in the last couple of years where I've went more um video heavy than object heavy as far as the design and execution goes. But also, i didn't feel like I had much to offer in making that object. I didn't have anything to say.
01:16:38
Speaker
So I felt okay making the choice to make more videos and and have more sponsors and and have more income. Whereas like the last piece I just made, ah the cabinet, which you and I talked about on the last episode.
01:16:50
Speaker
Um, that was, that was pure. Like I have to get this thing out of my soul and it just has to exist in the world. So it's no longer inside of me. And that I recorded it because I knew that like, I couldn't spend two months making a thing and not making any income.
01:17:05
Speaker
So I'm cutting the videos. I was cutting it together today. It's going to come out in two days and I still have no idea how I'm going to tell that fucking story. Um, but it's, it's like that to me was a hundred percent, uh,
01:17:17
Speaker
I made the thing because I had to make it. That's the purest of intentions that I could possibly work with. And ah just that the camera was rolling was just a way to be like, okay, I will still be able to recoup some amount of income from this piece, which I'm never going to sell. Like I can't sell that piece.
01:17:36
Speaker
know So, you know, so there has to be some way to, to make a couple of doubloons from, you know, to two and a half months of work. Rubies, fucking, you know, whatever, whatever you got. What era and what location are we in? There's no way to fucking know. There's no way to know. Okay. Rupees, you know, what do you got? Just like Conrad, you gave me verbal diarrhea instead of a percentage.
01:18:00
Speaker
No, I let off with fucking 70 to 80% dog. Just because you don't listen to me, Paul, doesn't mean I don't say words. This is why Vicky and I are friends. ah Okay, Eric, Dick. And there's one other thing. Like you and I have have talked about doing ad ads.
01:18:18
Speaker
like Sure. You do ads in your YouTube, right? yeah And it feels like selling out often. And i have so I struggle with this. When companies approach me and they're like, and and and Sean and Kate, you you guys are down on this.
01:18:32
Speaker
ah Companies approach you and say like, hey, like would you feature this product? And it's so hard to figure out where's the line. Like, what do you feel comfortable with? What, when is it selling out versus when is it more authentic?
01:18:45
Speaker
And for me, the line has always been, if I believe in this product, I want this product. Like I want to own it. I use it all the time. I do believe it's extraordinary. I have a no problem doing the ad rate for it or whatever, like, or talking about it. Like to me, I'm true to myself. I think I use this. I think it's fabulous.
01:19:04
Speaker
Right. But Eric, you I have a very different line. You expanded my understanding of this. You're like, dog, fucking chill out. It's just a commercial. It's a commercial.
01:19:16
Speaker
But here's also, this is this is how I distinguish it, right? So there are two companies, woodworking companies that I work with, FezTool and Shaper. And I was using both of those tools before they were sponsors. Yeah.
01:19:27
Speaker
I believe in their product. I believe in the quality of the products they put out. And so that I had them in the shop ah before we worked together anyway, if you want to give me money because it's in my shop, great. That means I can pay my mortgage for another month.
01:19:40
Speaker
Every other sponsorship I take, is, is outside of the woodworking field. Because if somebody is watching my videos and coming to me for woodworking advice or design advice, and then they see a commercial for a woodworking product, I don't want their perception of the information and educational components of my videos to be influenced by that commercial.
01:20:02
Speaker
But if it's a commercial that has nothing to do with woodworking, ifs it's fucking shh, solar, panel whatever, Nord VPN, like whatever the fuck it is. i don't give a shit. Uh, that company is paying me for a 30 second commercial and it has nothing to do with woodworking.
01:20:16
Speaker
You get what you want, which is a commercial. I get what I want, which is to be able to eat at the end of the fucking week. And the customer, the the viewer gets what they want, which is woodworking content. Is that selling out the fucking ad?
01:20:27
Speaker
Is that selling out? I don't, I mean, it's again, it allows me to pay my mortgage. So if that's the case, then I'll happily sell out to be able to not be homeless. Is that a yes or a no?
01:20:40
Speaker
I don't see that any different from teaching. Is that a yes? I sold out or a no. Yes, Paul, it's selling out. I don't know. Is it? Because you need the money. You need to eat. You need your mortgage. Yes. Listen, do I think it's selling out in my heart of hearts? No, but I don't think it's any different from doing anything else for a paycheck. What I have at the end of the day is a vehicle to be able to make creative work.
01:21:09
Speaker
And I think that's the important part. And however I can achieve that, that is not misleading the audience. then I'm fine with it. Okay. All right. This is this is really ah a so a a moving target, honestly. It's per person moving. It's conditionally moving across your life. Like what situation are you in?
01:21:29
Speaker
you know like This moves in multiple axes, like multidimensionally. at that like I'm having trouble like pinning down what is selling out. Sean and Kate, both of you do ads for like art companies, yeah?
01:21:42
Speaker
Is that selling out? Well, it's like with Eric, like those are companies that we used before. Like I used the brushes before i had any affiliation. So.
01:21:52
Speaker
Like, yeah, I help them. They make us do ads for them. So that part does feel bit sell outy, but we get paid. But then you get money or you get materials whatever. And that's the thing where it's like not all selling out is bad, but I think it also changes with like careers too. Like to be the artist that I want to be, I would love to just make paintings and drawings and sculptures that I want to make, but I can't make a career off of that.
01:22:17
Speaker
Like we were talking about, my favorite pieces are hanging on the wall here. Those are my favorites. They didn't sell. That's fine. But I would not have a career if I didn't sell out pretty much all the time.
01:22:28
Speaker
I don't want to make reels. I don't want to make reels, but I have to play the game. I'll play the game. Yeah, we would all love to be a trust fund baby, wouldn't we? Oh my God, it would be amazing. Eric, there are no trust fund babies in this channel. Well, right. So then that that brings up somebody that I know in in our space, in the woodworking space, and I'm not going to name names, and they are a trust fund baby, but they are held in very high regard as like,
01:22:59
Speaker
So pure, such a pure artist. Dude, you and I are talking about this later. sure Sure, sure, sure. We can take this off air, not even in the after show. um and And I don't mean to disparage them because they are, ah in my experience, at least they've been very kind.
01:23:14
Speaker
But they like the public perception of them is they are just like pure artists through and through. And like, yeah, of course, they've never had to worry about a fucking paycheck. They've never had to think about like, am I going to be able to afford my apartment?
01:23:29
Speaker
Because they've always had that access. If they didn't, then I wonder what they'd be doing for money. Okay. Painting's got that too. It's totally got that. What's this? Say it again, Sean. Painting has the same thing. Some of the biggest like painter, famous figurative painters that have opened these movements of schools come from trust funds. You know, you read their name, you're like, oh, fuck, that's like a massive banking company or whatever, you know? Oh, that's why you can like, that's why you're so like, then the same thing, like they're like pure into this art and this crap, but that's because they have millions and millions of dollars. They can afford to be.
01:24:02
Speaker
Yeah, we're like, I got to work for the Mint and that's fine because I know I'm going into it. um I know i'm going to get a paycheck. I know I can do the job and I'm going to get a paycheck and I can go pay my bills and that's it.
01:24:14
Speaker
but yeah Sean, we haven't we haven't focused on the fact that Conrad and and Eric and I are from the woodworking world and and and you and Kate are are largely from the painting world. We haven't touched on that at all because honestly, this topic spans, is much larger than any whoops or discipline.
01:24:32
Speaker
Are you guys in the dark? What's going on over here? it gay put on you ah Come on up. so like what the They forgot to pay the electricity bill. we yeah yeah Yeah, exactly. This is what happens when you don't sell out.
01:24:57
Speaker
light die Okay, now that the lights are back on.
Experiences in the Gallery World and Career Choices
01:25:01
Speaker
ah Is there, Sean and Kate, is there any ah a part of this conversation that you think might be specific to painting as is like somewhat different from some of the other maker trades?
01:25:16
Speaker
Yes, I do. Please tell me. What I think, explain the one of the things is if you're a gallery painter, that shit is weird because like you do a year of work, you get it into a gallery and there's zero guarantee of making any money.
01:25:30
Speaker
It's like then now the job comes for the gallery to sell the work and give you only 50 percent. And they have they can sell nothing. And they did their job. because there's no guarantee. So like doing that. So then you do a bunch of paintings for a show and you got to think about like, what can they sell? Cause if you're purely yourself, it might not sell. But like, I think that's the biggest difference is with gallery type of showing where like commission is one thing I get paid. Cool.
01:25:57
Speaker
Mint, I get paid. <unk>ll I'll happily do a job you tell me to do when I know there's a paycheck at the end of my job. But when it's a gallery thing and i put in all my heart and soul into something and then now you've got to like try and sell it, but you don't really care that much because you're working with 15, 20 other artists.
01:26:13
Speaker
um It's a shitty business model and requires a lot of selling out for you to just like kind of anticipate what's going to sell out. So that's a weird bit, a weird game. like And that's why I do more commercial work, you know, because I know I'm getting paycheck illustration. Like, tell me what to pay. You want me to paint fucking snake eyes from GI Joe?
01:26:33
Speaker
um and Because you're paying me these guys, you know, i did i did that for like an action figure. It's just like, but that's cool. You know, it's like it was fun because like I knew going in it was going to be different and weird.
01:26:46
Speaker
I liked GI Joe as a kid. And then um and then just like knowing there's a it's a job that I'm going to get paid for is such a different thing than what I started my career with, where it's like this hope you're going to make money.
01:26:59
Speaker
So I got into teaching because I knew I'd get a paycheck and I've been teaching this whole time. But the goal was always to do gallery work, which I've come to realize is just a joke of a business model. It's interesting that early on in your career, it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, early on when you started out, um I think we all have that same dream. Those of us who who want to be creative professionally of like, wouldn't it be cool if I could just fucking get paid for my work?
01:27:27
Speaker
Wouldn't that be cool? Yeah. And then you start to get paid for your work and you're like, fuck, I'm a sellout. Yeah. Shit. It's probably the same in everything. Music, you know, any any creative thing. It's like once you start making money and people like you, you're kind of a sellout. Once you get fans, you're a sellout. But really, like, you're successful. That's what it is. And that's...
01:27:46
Speaker
Well, I was wondering that the whole conversation I've been thinking like, how much is this a generational thing? You know, like listening to the way that that you're talking about it sounds so punk rock.
01:27:59
Speaker
It sounds so like, fuck you, fuck the man. I'm not going to do any of it. And then you contrast that 30 years later with like Gen Z on TikTok.
01:28:09
Speaker
And there there's no I don't I don't like I don't want to be that guy shitting on a whole generation. um But I'm gonna. But it but let's good it it feels as though the the driver, like, and I think it's all cyclical. I think this was like 80s glam rock too, right? So it's not new, but it is different from what what we're describing here.
01:28:30
Speaker
The entire goal is how famous can we get? How much money can we get? Like, that's the barometer. where that's not selling out. right right so it's not selling out selling at all right right right right it's not that that is that is just like that's as maybe creatively fulfilling maybe as fucking the punk rockers in the early 90s being like i don't even um don't even want to sell tickets fuck you i want to play in the back of this goddamn dumpster and there's going to be nobody there and it's going to be the best goddamn show we ever put on
01:29:05
Speaker
Conrad, I know you feel that punk rock analogy. Yeah. Yeah. My friend Rainey has this theory that um that people who listen to punk rock have a deep understanding of they've they've got a deep understanding of what they perceive selling out to be.
01:29:23
Speaker
And people who didn't listen to listen to punk rock. or if we're not exposed to it, just don't. this is This is his theory. And he explained it to me years ago. And I think about- That's so specific. I think about that more often than i probably should, but it also kind of holds water a little bit more consistently than I would have thought.
01:29:47
Speaker
So yeah, it's, yeah. yeah I mean, I got into design because i the idea of going to, you know, everybody was trying to push me to go to art school.
01:29:59
Speaker
And I thought, i don't I'm not sure I can do that. I don't like you know i want a house someday. i don't want to be a starving artist. How many people are can actually make a living doing this? So to me, the sidestep or the selling out was studying graphic design.
01:30:16
Speaker
But it probably didn't feel like selling out. It didn't. Because, at some point. Because your actions were aligned with your goals. Right. But at some point, somebody said it's a choice. I think Kate said it's a choice. And that's very much what that was. It was, okay, I need to create a outlet in some capacity. I need to work with my hands. I need to do things with my hands.
01:30:35
Speaker
So, you know, doing studying fine art, I loved it. And I enjoyed painting. I enjoyed sculpting. I enjoyed all of that stuff, but couldn't, couldn't felt like that was too risky.
01:30:47
Speaker
So then went into the design side because I thought, well, there's maybe enough of a creative outlet here. And for a while there was got to be a, you know, got to be an art director and thought, well, this, this isn't what I thought it was going to be.
01:31:02
Speaker
And then started making furniture and that was, holy shit. I need way more of this in my life then. Cause that, that felt like a creative expression. that i was that i was needing and then just jumped ship and made planes for a living, which is kind of bananas.
01:31:17
Speaker
it it allowed for It allowed for all of those other boxes to get checked. Conrad, none of that sounds like selling out to me. It sounds like i i i perceive like I wanted this for my life and I pointed myself in the trajectory that is most likely to give me that while also satisfying some of my creative wants and needs. That does not sound like selling out to me at all.
01:31:41
Speaker
No, but it's, but it's as Kate said, it's choices you're making, you're making and as informed a choice as you can. So maybe, you know, maybe that's a different way of expressing selling out, right? You're, i mean, we are all constantly making choices about, am I going to work with this person? Do I get a good vibe from this person or not? Yes or no.
01:31:59
Speaker
Cut them out or, or, or go running at them and invite them just to spend the weekend with you. Right. Which is it going to be? Those are all choices, right? So two very different, very different choices. Yes, are different. Well, y'all, amazing conversation.
Reflections on Authenticity and Selling Out
01:32:18
Speaker
We're already at an hour and a half. I don't know where it went because i was it just evaporated. But that's what it should be when you have ah five passionate people who like making things in art.
01:32:30
Speaker
This, I guess what my parting words, ah not that they're like sage and we need Paul's parting words. I don't mean it like that. But like addiction. and No, if if if if I can at least express what I'm coming away with, not as like, that's what all y'all are, but at least I'll give you my impression is like, okay, the idea of authenticity, which we started with,
01:32:52
Speaker
is fairly straightforward. Like there's research on it, it can be defined in many different ways. That that definition of of of ah awareness and um yeah unbiased processing and behavior, you know acting on that, and then relational orientation, like you know being authentic with your friends. like That doesn't seem so complicated to me.
01:33:15
Speaker
I think all of us buy into that. Now, whether you think there's more aspects to it is fine or not. But like that's kind of straightforward. But what i I guess was the big surprise to me tonight is like, what the fuck does selling out even mean anymore? Like, like, like, like, Sean, you're like the minute you tell me to do anything, I'm selling out. yeah Yeah. And now, but now I literally work for the men.
01:33:42
Speaker
um Like I'd say that's the, that, that, that's like the most like, like demanding or extreme ah version of selling out. And then there's other versions of selling out. Eric, I feel like you're the most like flexible, uh, gender fluid, if you will.
01:34:01
Speaker
Um, we can, we can call it morally ambiguous. It's fine. I know where I stand. No, where we're selling out is like, if my actions don't jive with my value system right now,
01:34:14
Speaker
that might be selling out, but my values may change depending on time, depending on circumstance and what what I need, you know? Yeah. Yeah. That makes me sound mildly sociopathic. does know out No, no, no, no, no. I just, I just, I just think like what your goals are like, and Conrad, you were just talking about this with your design ah path is like my, like my goals, I defined my goals and did my, did my decisions align with my goals.
01:34:42
Speaker
Yeah. and And if they do, that's not selling out. And if they don't, it may not. Anyway, you see, i feel as though this part of the the conversation, as opposed to authenticity, is far more like difficult to define a moving target personal. Each of us, I think has a different definition of what selling out is. I'd say Kate and Sean are probably the most aligned. Like the two of them are piece in a pod, no doubt. But um I think me and Conrad and Eric differ from that to some extent. And each of us is a different yeah point on a, on a, on a continuum.
01:35:20
Speaker
So what a fantastic discussion. Thank you, ah Kate and Sean. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was a really good chat for sure. That was great. The two of you are exceptional artists.
01:35:32
Speaker
Actually, ah Kate and Sean, why don't you tell people where to see your art?
01:35:38
Speaker
um I'm mostly on Instagram at just Sean Cheatham. That's the easiest way to find me. Yeah, easiest way for me too, at Kate Zambrano or through my website, katesambrano.com.
01:35:50
Speaker
Okay. But we're not selling out. We're not selling out. you. Okay. On our Instagram, I would like to feature, ah like to show what both of y'all make. so that the Because this is, obviously, i think most of our listeners are woodworkers, but not all, because this is not really about woodworking. this This podcast is about art, creativity, design, philosophy. So I think we have a lot of different artist types. So I'd love to show people what the two of you do. You're truly phenomenal artists. Thank you for today's discussion. And of course, Conrad, as always.
01:36:23
Speaker
Thank you. Thanks again. Buddy, buddy, you've been on this show so many, you know, this is an audio format. Yeah. Oh, you can't just nod. and and i just I just made a heart with my hands. Okay. And Eric, Eric, as always, you're my bae. I love you, buddy. I'm looking forward to what we talk about in the after show. If you want to tune in to see the audio feed, to see the lights going out and Sean and Kate's place to see the, all the antics going on. Just join our Patreon. ah We also appreciate it just to support us.
01:36:55
Speaker
And um you get the after show, you get the video feed. And now we have a chat community going where all the very, I'd say, passionate listeners are sharing about topics in advance.
01:37:09
Speaker
So i I've been posting the topics before they occur and people are listing kind of their questions or their thoughts. And actually, I'm going to farm some of that for our episodes soon. So if you'd like to be part of that, just subscribe to our Patreon and we will see you in the after show, everyone.
01:37:26
Speaker
Okay, bye. Bye, everyone. you.