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Episode 38 - Are you TALENTED, or do you just WORK HARD?
1.7k Plays1 month ago
Can you succeed with HARD WORK ALONE, or do you need TALENT as well? Does TALENT make the difference between being good vs being great? What exactly is the difference between talent, aptitude, and hard work and which do you possess? Join us for a spirited discussion on this topic in today's episode. Plus, MARY IS BACK!
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Show Introduction and Host Reintroduction
00:00:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You can't laugh during the intro music.
00:00:15
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, what a start.
00:00:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, holy shit. We are back. And I mean, we are back. This is...
00:00:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
OG3!
00:00:22
Mary
I'm back, bitches!
00:00:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Woo! woo,
00:00:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Woodworking is bullshit is back with the original cast of clowns and characters. Mary Tissaie is back.
00:00:33
NAP-E-BYE BABY
woo, woo!
00:00:34
Mary
I'm back!
Hosts' Backgrounds
00:00:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper.
00:00:36
Mary
It's only been a a year.
00:00:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It's not been a year.
00:00:41
Mary
Feels like it.
00:00:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:00:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined, as you know, with Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker, content creator, and I already said who's here with us.
00:00:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
are
00:00:59
Mary
Oh my god.
00:00:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The third musketeer is back in the fucking chair.
00:01:03
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Goddamn right, baby.
00:01:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary Tsai.
00:01:05
Mary
oh hi!
00:01:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, hey.
00:01:06
Mary
It's been too long!
00:01:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:01:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary Tsai.
00:01:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Good to see ah all
Handling Online Criticism
00:01:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
the bullshit. Let's start off with grievances because fuck the internet. Here's what I want to know.
00:01:14
Mary
Oh my god! hi
00:01:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I'm coming out hot.
00:01:17
Mary
What's happened?
00:01:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So paul all Paul sent to the group chat.
00:01:18
Mary
Yeah,
00:01:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, no, not even to the group chat, just to me.
00:01:23
Mary
yeah I didn't get it.
00:01:24
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ah A Reddit post where somebody was like, I listened to this Woodworking Bullshit podcast, and it was... Mary was kind of cool, but, like, the other two people were so insufferable. but This motherfucker...
00:01:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like, first of all, I'm not gonna... I don't i don't take a offense when people call me insufferable on the internet anymore, because...
00:01:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
they They actually didn't call you insufferable. They called you beyond annoying.
00:01:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Beyond annoying. I'm so sorry to offend.
00:01:49
Mary
Wow.
00:01:51
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um Fuck.
00:01:52
Mary
It was me, actually.
00:01:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Fuck Reddit. I just want to know what kind of clown is out here. Like, I just need more definitions in my podcasts.
00:02:03
Mary
ah Plenty of people.
00:02:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Apparent? Well, if you're looking for the username, it's ah falling up down there. I just did that.
00:02:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Falling up down there.
00:02:10
Mary
o
00:02:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:02:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay. All right. um So what I want to know is how are we going to convince this person that we're actually the cool ones on the podcast?
00:02:22
Mary
And I'm not? Are you saying that's reverse?
00:02:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yes, that part.
00:02:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
What Leads to Success?
00:02:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
all right. So did you get your grievance out?
00:02:34
NAP-E-BYE BABY
No, I've got other grievances about the internet.
00:02:35
Mary
Wait, wait, Paul, did you respond?
00:02:36
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Here we go.
00:02:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i did i didn't I didn't respond to that direct comment because I didn't want to see argumentative, but I left the next comment saying, I think that podcast is actually great.
00:02:38
Mary
You said?
00:02:41
Mary
Oh, I see. Okay.
00:02:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, so here's, here's, here's what annoys me about that. Um, number one, there is no response to that.
00:02:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That can be had because otherwise you're just like an asshole defending yourself on the internet, which is never a good look.
00:02:57
Mary
That's true. I could respond. I could be like, oh, hey, bestie. Thanks.
00:03:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Mary, you're supposed to...
00:03:05
Mary
I totally agree. she's like, okay.
00:03:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
years's that you
00:03:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It all it takes one half hearted compliment.
00:03:07
Mary
Nah, it was me.
00:03:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
He didn't even say Mary was amazing and I love her. He was like, Mary's like kind of OK.
00:03:13
Mary
I read ah ok
00:03:15
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Comparatively, she's tolerable and she's out here swooning.
00:03:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um You're supposed to stand up for us, Mary.
00:03:21
Mary
no it was me i read it
00:03:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
my God, the worst. All right. um Shall we get to today's show?
00:03:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
right, fine. We can talk about actual things.
00:03:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are you done with complaining, Eric?
00:03:31
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I just wanted to complain about the Internet.
00:03:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. I'm glad you're done complaining now. um Today's show, ah we're going to roll this old school and we're going to define some shit because Mary's here.
00:03:41
Mary
Oh my god.
00:03:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:03:43
Mary
so excited.
00:03:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Today's show is on this idea of, are you talented? Or do you just work really hard? And what's the difference? So people people say, oh, you know, I've had this many times.
00:03:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
People say, oh my God, Paul, you're so they see something you make and they say, you're so talented. And I didn't know what to make of that because i never ever knew what to make of that comment because what does that mean?
00:04:03
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I fucking hate that.
00:04:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does that mean like I was born with it? Does that mean I'm good at it? Does that mean i earned it through like hard work? ah So I wasn't, I never know how to take that. So let's start by defining talent.
00:04:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I looked up talent in the dictionary before the show, Mary and talent.
00:04:26
Mary
ah Did you see my my face there?
00:04:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hey In fact, I did. Talent is is defined as a natural skill or ability to be good at something, especially without being taught something.
00:04:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So to me, that speaks of it's an aptitude. So you're born with it.
00:04:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
00:04:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What that what that suggests is talent is something you're born with.
00:04:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Can I... also I fully married also before this because I wanted to know the definition or the difference between aptitude and talent. So talent is, like ah like you said, something you're born with, something that you can do innately, something that you don't have to learn.
00:05:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:05:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Aptitude is the um natural ability to learn something, to be like... Your your mind...
00:05:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
00:05:18
NAP-E-BYE BABY
is able to learn something more easily than something else.
00:05:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Oh.
00:05:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And I think that's an important difference because i hate, I hate when people look at my work and they go, oh, you're so talented because that negates all of the hard work that I put in to learn the skill.
00:05:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:05:35
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I do think I have an aptitude toward woodworking and building. And I don't know about design, but I do think the actual physical act of building things does come naturally to me, but I had to learn it.
00:05:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
there was no point in my life where I just like looked at a building and went, Oh, I can figure out how that goes together without somebody teaching me. But once somebody taught me, it made sense.
00:05:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so...
00:05:56
Mary
I'm the opposite, I think. ah Or not opposite.
00:06:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You're just so fucking talented that it's just, everything's easy for you.
00:06:00
Mary
No, no. Yeah, i piss talent, basically.
00:06:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It's good to have you back on the pod, buddy.
00:06:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, this is spicy right out the gate.
00:06:10
Mary
No, I
00:06:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I missed your arrogance.
00:06:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is so spicy.
Self-Assessment of Talent and Effort
00:06:15
Mary
was going say, um i think that I have more aptitude towards the design side and less towards the building side, which like checks out within our actual careers. Yeah.
00:06:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:06:26
Mary
But yeah.
00:06:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:06:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's it?
00:06:28
Mary
Paul, what about you?
00:06:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, well, hold on, hold on.
00:06:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's all going to give me?
00:06:30
Mary
Yeah.
00:06:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have a few questions first, wait but Eric, my God, you are, you are on fire today. Um, you're coming in hot at Mary.
00:06:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I'm coming in hot.
00:06:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're like, is that all you're giving me? I need more. right. So the I hadn't, I hadn't realized the distinction. So there's like three levels to this. There's, um,
00:06:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm I do not have an aptitude and I just work really fucking hard. That's one level. The second level is i have an aptitude, meaning I'm good at learning, but I still have to work hard to learn it.
00:07:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the third is talent, which is I can do it without really any work. It's just kind of there. It's like perfect pitch. Like some musicians are born with perfect pitch.
00:07:18
NAP-E-BYE BABY
yeah Yeah, I feel like that's a good comp.
00:07:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like that's a talent.
00:07:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like there's no learning involved. I mean a little bit, but they just have it.
00:07:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
But...
00:07:24
Mary
Is that a...
00:07:24
NAP-E-BYE BABY
but that But that's the thing though, right?
00:07:26
Mary
Is that a towel?
00:07:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
like Well, okay, if you're a musician, then it's a talent. it is a It is a valuable skill to have.
00:07:32
Mary
It's a towel? I feel like it's just like a skill, right? i don't... Well, okay. Sorry, go on.
00:07:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I mean, something i feel like perfect pitch or photographic memory is just something you're born with.
00:07:42
Mary
That is true.
00:07:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
and And talent is ah is along that same lines, right?
00:07:43
Mary
ah
00:07:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like some people can just like they come out of the womb and they just know how to play the fucking violin. Some people come out of the womb and they just know. Don't smile but in that like knowing smile, Mary.
00:07:58
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That was um it.
00:07:58
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:08:02
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I think talent is valuable, but talent has its limitations because you don't actually know anything yet.
00:08:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does.
00:08:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Oh, you're saying talent without application is wasted.
00:08:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Talent without work is wasted. Yeah.
00:08:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, I would agree.
00:08:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And I think talent will get you pretty far.
00:08:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:08:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like this is, this is where like child prodigies come into play. Like you can get pretty far just on talent, but if you don't then take that talent and work on it and refine it and actually master the craft that it is involved in, then you end up just being somebody who was pretty good when they were 14 and you know, now you're 40 and like, okay, what have you done?
00:08:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, I see that. So can we each of us talk like, have you ever thought about this topic with yourself? Like whether you're talented or have an aptitude or just hard work? Have you ever thought about this?
00:08:51
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, i think I think about it every time somebody tells me I'm talented and I hate it.
00:08:52
Mary
Yeah.
00:08:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay, so let's let's go through Eric, what are you and what percent of each?
00:09:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
i think percentage is ah is a good way to frame it. um i
00:09:05
Mary
It also depends what you're talking about too, right?
00:09:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, okay.
00:09:08
Mary
Like the subject. Yeah.
00:09:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
okay can we limit it to woodworking for the moment?
00:09:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Mary wants us to define the subject more. Yeah.
00:09:14
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Let's limit it to woodworking as as it's in ah the name of our podcast.
00:09:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Woodworking. Well, I think Mary's wondering whether it's the execution part or the design part.
00:09:22
Mary
ah ah Yeah, it's fine. I think it's better to limit it to something so that's more tangible.
00:09:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay, let's say the craft right now of woodworking. And then we can then we can go to design later on.
00:09:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The craft.
00:09:36
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Because I do think those are different answers for me.
00:09:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so just making shit.
00:09:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The ability to make shit. Okay.
00:09:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Just physically making shit, I think I...
00:09:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
oh i would... Put it a pretty close to even split, like pretty close like 30s across the board with a with a lean toward aptitude.
00:09:59
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I think a lot of things make sense to me naturally.
00:09:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:10:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:10:02
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And that's why it's hard to parse like talent versus aptitude. But no small part of it has been the hard work of actually like mastering the physical skill, hand tool work, machine work, etc.
00:10:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. 30, 30, 30.
00:10:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Mary.
00:10:14
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I'm going to put it roughly there.
00:10:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and okay mary
00:10:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mary?
00:10:17
Mary
um For me, Talon is the least, is definitely the smallest chunk. I'd put that maybe at like, I don't know, 10, 15%. ten fifteen percent And then the other two are probably split.
00:10:35
Mary
Yeah, I would say like 10, 15% Talon and then even for the other two.
00:10:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I would say small talent for making things. I would say 10%. And I would say aptitude strong. I learned quickly. So I would say like 50%.
00:10:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then the remaining 40% is doing. So I think I have a high aptitude, but low talent, low innate talent, but high aptitude for learning it.
00:10:58
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm.
00:11:05
NAP-E-BYE BABY
OK. And what about what about the design?
00:11:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And how,
The Role of Design Skills
00:11:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Let's snake it. Paul, you go first this time. What about design?
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the design, funny enough, I think there's a talent component there because I can just look at something instantly. Just the minute I look at it, I know what's wrong with it. sort At least for my design aesthetic, I know instantly what's wrong with it.
00:11:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it doesn't I don't have to sit there and hem and haw. I just know. i can see it instantly.
00:11:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, so is that a thing that you could do 10 years ago? Or is that a thing that you can do now with the amount of experience you have?
00:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I always knew when something looked stupid to me.
00:11:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay.
00:11:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And i I was always kind of there in the background. Maybe I listened to it more. It's it's more well-developed. But I always knew that looks dumb, and here's why. if they just changed that, that would look oh that would look so much better if...
00:11:49
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm.
00:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I just... I could... instantly go to it and I realized that I thought that's everyone I thought everyone's kind of like has those thoughts and then it it occurred to me that that's that's not necessarily true and so I was like oh maybe that maybe I have a design talent then maybe I do I don't know I didn't know but for design I would say maybe like 30 30 40 30
00:12:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
so So what are your percentages then?
00:12:12
Mary
have it.
00:12:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
thirty thirty forty thirty
00:12:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Which?
00:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah third So talent, aptitude, dirty hard work
00:12:33
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay. All right. Mary?
00:12:36
Mary
Interesting. I have a funny story that what Paul just reminded me of. I, so I have perfect pitch. I didn't know I had perfect pitch until middle school. Cause I didn't know what perfect, which pitch was um until my music teacher told me that I had it I was like, Oh, that makes sense.
00:12:50
Mary
And it's like, wait, I just thought everyone was so bad at music. It's like everyone around me are just idiots. Cause I couldn't understand what these notes were without any reference.
00:12:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:13:00
Mary
And it like all clicked for me back then. Um, Anyway, sorry. i in terms It happens in more people of ethnicities that come from tonal languages, supposedly.
00:13:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can't believe you have perfect pitch. That's exceedingly rare.
00:13:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's incredible.
00:13:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's interesting.
00:13:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can't believe it Wow.
00:13:20
Mary
Yeah.
00:13:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:13:22
Mary
um
00:13:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:13:24
Mary
So design, this one's hard because I've gone to school for so long that it's hard for me to differentiate at this point. Um, let's see, I would probably say fairly even split across the board.
00:13:40
Mary
Um, ah design is also difficult because it's so subjective because your interpretation of design and what's right is completely different from someone else's, but yeah.
00:13:49
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, but but but fuck everybody else's opinion. Like, how do you feel about your work and how easily you come to a design decision now versus what you did 15 years ago?
00:14:02
Mary
a
00:14:05
Mary
Yeah. I would still probably say around an even split.
00:14:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:14:11
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:14:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right, Eric, what are you?
00:14:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm. I have next to zero natural design talent or aptitude. um I think so if we're as we've separated talent and aptitude, I would say it's like maybe 5% talent like it is like next to nothing.
00:14:34
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um I won't give it a zero because I feel like that's tipping the scales too far. um Aptitude, it was really hard to learn.
00:14:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like it doesn't... the Music came naturally to to me. Building things came naturally to me. Sports came naturally to me, even though I was exceedingly, mildly above average.
00:14:57
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um Design was like trying to drill a hole in the wall of my forehead. It was just...
00:15:05
Mary
It's because there's no right or wrong answer in design.
00:15:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
but No, no, no.
00:15:08
Mary
Hmm.
00:15:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't even think it's that. I think I just... I think I have specifically when it comes to design, um, a more mathematical scientific mind than I do an artistic mind.
00:15:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so it wasn't until I learned that you could break design down into like basic addition and subtraction, subtraction equations that it began to make sense to me.
00:15:32
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so I think it was largely just like the hard work of finding a way to learn the thing that worked with my brain. And so in in that regard, going give it, I don't know, we'll call 80% work, 15% aptitude, 5% talent. Yeah, nobody, nobody,
00:15:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
fifteen percent aptitude five percent talent
00:15:48
Mary
but
00:15:51
Mary
There is, that is a good entryway into learn design, like thinking, approaching it from like the mathematical side of like, oh, these are like some of the hard rules that design follows. ah
00:16:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
yeah but nobody nobody
00:16:00
Mary
Yeah.
00:16:03
NAP-E-BYE BABY
In my experience, nobody teaching design teaches it to people who don't naturally get it. Because if you don't have an aptitude for design, they just go like, ah, it's not your calling. Like you're not one of us. So just see yourself out.
00:16:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so so I had to be like, no, no, no, I want to be fucking good at this. Like, I want to learn it. And it was 15 years in the making or whatever it was until I went like, oh, here's a way that I can learn it.
00:16:33
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So I don't I I don't.
00:16:33
Mary
Oh, that's so sad to hear though. i feel like those are shitty teachers.
00:16:37
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, a lot of them. um But I think they're also, I don't know, like a lot of the the the problem in the woodworking world, often in my experience, at least, is we're so focused on teaching the craft that we don't teach the design.
00:16:54
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And the designers who went to school for design don't look at the craftsmen as equal. So it's this like, who are you then going to learn design from?
00:17:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You know, the people teaching the crafts or the people who don't take the craftsmen seriously? like
00:17:10
Mary
Yeah, I mean, if you separate it out, they are they can technically be two completely separate fields, which is why that blend, that overlap is really difficult.
00:17:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Sure, sure.
00:17:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, I mean, if we continue to take music as an analogy, being a musician as in that you are somebody who plays an instrument professionally and somebody who composes are two different, ah you know, they're two different professions.
00:17:32
Mary
yeah
00:17:37
Mary
Yeah, I was so bad at at composing.
00:17:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:17:39
Mary
Oh my God. that was what That was one thing where I was like, I'm so bad at this. I'm not even going to try.
00:17:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Ironically enough, composing always made sense to me. Like I went when I took a lot of I took basic music theory through like sophomore year of college and composition was a class that I always had.
00:17:48
Mary
That makes sense, I think.
00:17:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And ah like i could just do it. It just made total sense. It was just math. It was like, here's where you start.
00:18:00
Mary
Hmm.
00:18:01
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Here's how you separate the chord structure and here's how you resolve it.
00:18:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so Eric, so I have
Defining Exceptional Success
00:18:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a comment. So first of all, an observation and then a comment. The observation is all of us think that we have low talent, maybe decent aptitude, but a lot of hard work. That seems to be the overarching thing.
00:18:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
theme here, right? That's the observation. I think a lot of listeners will feel that way too. don't, I mean, I think very few of us are like, oh yeah, I have tons of talent.
00:18:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mm-hmm.
00:18:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah You know, it always feels like, like you have to work super hard or you're just like, okay, and maybe I learned it. I'm a quick learner, but I still have to put in a lot of hard work. So it's always like sweat equity. It seems to be like the lion's share. And then, um but the question is,
00:18:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you said, oh, it's simple. It's just math. and And Mary, you were like, yeah, you could learn design because it's about proportions and math informs good proportions and eye-pleasing stuff. But so that's true.
00:18:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don't take issue with that. And then I'm wondering, well, if if it's as simple as math,
00:19:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyone can learn that, right? Like anyone can like study classical proportions and mimic that. But what separates really special people from the rest of the crowd?
00:19:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, if you just say, oh, it's easy. I can compose. It's just math. You're not going to be a really, truly exceptional once in a... Lifetime composer. You're just going to be like everyone else who learned the same math rules and you kind of all make the same pieces out of, you know, like, is is there like, what is that special sauce that makes like those certain people just that it factor?
00:19:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like what is that talent on top of it
00:19:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, that's a hard question.
00:19:47
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Maybe.
00:19:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If anyone can learn it, if it's in a book or a class and anyone can learn it, how are you gonna how are you going to rise above the pack?
00:19:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It might be.
00:19:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, but if you don't have a natural aptitude toward it, and i'm i'm I think moving forward, I'm probably going to conflate talent and aptitude often, so let's just get that out of the way right now.
00:20:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um If you do not have a natural disposition toward it, then it's youre you're going to struggle to move beyond the rules that are set in front of you.
00:20:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And either that or like, you know, you're manic and you just like keep doing the thing until until you accidentally do something good. Like those are the options, right?
00:20:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, do you think the people who like are at the top, like the famous artists, why are they famous? Did they have a talent?
00:20:41
Mary
Oh God.
00:20:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that Did they have a talent? like I know I'm asking you to generalize.
00:20:45
Mary
If I could answer that, I'd be famous.
00:20:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know each. But do do you think it's it that they had that special sauce, that talent that the others didn't have? Or did they just get a lucky break?
00:20:53
Mary
Yeah, well, i think I think it's a combination of luck, maybe in like their time period, in like the way that they thought. I don't know. I don't have a good answer for this, but I think that we can agree that everyone has to baseline understanding of, of like, you know, hard work, aptitude, talent, et cetera. Like we all understand the baseline of design foundations.
00:21:17
Mary
And I think it's just, uh, when you start to reach outside of what you see and try to make a name for yourself, that's when more of the talent either shines or doesn't shine or like your, your lack of talent or your, um,
00:21:34
Mary
I don't know the the town that you do have, it really shows there. So when you try to make, when you try to step outside of the pack, I guess. um But I don't know.
00:21:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's when aptitude shines.
00:21:43
Mary
I don't have a good answer for that.
00:21:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
But isn't isn't that then, like, if you have two equally talented people and one tries to step outside what's being done and succeeds and the other one doesn't, then that's hard work that sets them apart.
00:21:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:22:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So, you know, so I feel like these these three things are inherently linked.
00:22:00
Mary
Yeah, that's true.
00:22:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know that that one sets one apart.
00:22:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that's true.
00:22:07
Mary
Do you think that everyone has a similar kind of baseline in terms of talent and it's the other two areas?
00:22:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:22:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
No, no, absolutely not.
00:22:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no way.
00:22:14
Mary
Okay.
00:22:15
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And this, this idea that everybody's special and talented is fucking nonsense.
00:22:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think, yeah, no, I think aptitude and talent are genetically heritable traits in general.
00:22:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:22:23
Mary
Interesting.
00:22:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Are you like, what do you think that everybody has the same level of talent as somebody who literally just before this call told me that they read three or four books in the last two weeks? And i typically read, i don't know, a page a night as I fall asleep of a book.
00:22:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So do we have the same level of talent when it comes to consuming information on the written page?
00:22:49
Mary
That's a good point that I hate that you're making. Yeah, I mean...
00:22:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Do you though? Because i was just like, you're smart and I'm dumb. Oh.
00:22:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:22:57
Mary
Well, no, it's just...
00:22:58
Mary
Okay, fine, fine.
00:23:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:23:02
Mary
Let's move on.
00:23:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you think society of rewards one more than the other? Does society of reward hard work more than being talented?
00:23:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
no
00:23:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or does society see these these one-off people, these, I don't know, I'm going to use a few names, like Michael Jordan or Tom Brady and say, like, they're super special and that's why they're, you know,
00:23:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Those are interesting examples though.
00:23:27
Mary
I don't know.
00:23:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mary, go ahead first.
00:23:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, likes let's take those examples because I think every...
00:23:30
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Let's take those two. Go ahead.
00:23:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, fine. Take it.
00:23:32
Mary
I don't know if society is able to determine that in the same way that we were talking about it, though, because of course, they're going to see it from like some faraway perspective of like, oh, even if they did have talent, or even if they spent all the hard work, they're going to say that's talent, that's whatever.
00:23:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like that.
00:23:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah, that's true.
00:23:46
Mary
So like, I don't know if it's easy to break that down.
00:23:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, I mean, there's always the, I don't know what what the proper verbiage is. Like, when somebody succeeds, it's a confirmation bias, I guess.
00:24:04
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Once somebody succeeds, then it's easy to point out, like, what they had going for them.
00:24:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That they were talented?
00:24:07
Mary
Right.
00:24:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, that they were
00:24:09
Mary
Yeah.
00:24:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like, Tom Brady was so talented that he was the 199th pick in the draft in the year 2000. Wow. Or Michael Jordan was so talented, except for the fact that he was a known fucking sociopath on the team and drove everybody insane with his work ethic because he was obsessed with being better than everybody else.
00:24:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So so is it talent? Is it hard work?
00:24:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I would say Tom Brady, of course, he's very good throwing a football. His mechanics were excellent. but my my yeah but no But my thinking is his talent was actually his intellect and his decision making.
00:24:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, years down the road.
00:24:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that was always there. Yes,
00:24:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
he also he also came into and this is not taking anything away from him um even as a jet fan but but he came no this is maybe taking taking something away from young tom brady he came into a situation that was ideal and he had time to develop he had time to develop
00:24:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes it is
00:24:53
Mary
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:25:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:25:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
into the Tom Brady that we think of now. And that's critical. I think, whereas like Michael Jordan came into the league and he was a, and like he was Michael Jordan from the jump, but what he wasn't was a champion yet. And it took him nine or 10 years to develop the ability to not be a solo player on the court and learn how to pass the ball, learn how to set up people for the shot.
00:25:31
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah. listen, he didn't win a championship before Scottie Pippen and he didn't win a championship after Scottie Pippen. Okay.
00:25:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, shut it.
00:25:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
He's, he's, it's a team sport and he had to learn how to be a team player. And that's the skill that he had to develop.
00:25:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know. Anywho, you know, I actually, Mary, I have a follow up question.
00:25:47
Mary
Oh my god.
00:25:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When you think about your sense of self, either as a woodworker or as a UX designer or as a violin player, do you define yourself or and do we globally define ourselves more based on our talents or our hard work?
Culture and Self-Perception of Effort
00:26:07
Mary
I think we would prefer to define ourselves on our hard work. Because you want to you don't want to come off someone like I'm naturally talented at everything or, you know, i i just was already above everyone and like barely had to put in any new work. I feel like everyone is always going to want to define themselves by how much work and time and effort they put into something.
00:26:28
Mary
What Eric, are you going to challenge me on that that? You're making a face?
00:26:32
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know what you're talking about. I wasn't making any faces, dog. I wasn't thinking about how you were just talking about how you have a perfect pitch and playing the violin just came so easily to you.
00:26:41
Mary
Oh my God.
00:26:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So natural.
00:26:45
Mary
I did not say that.
00:26:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It...
00:26:46
Mary
i said I have perfect pitch. Playing took many, many, many thousands of hours of practice.
00:26:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I believe that I do think we are going to want to define ourselves by our hard work because it's not in vogue at this moment in time in our culture.
00:27:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's more socially acceptable.
00:27:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
yeah yeah, yeah. It's like every like as as Americans, we love the idea of the self made person. um But like nobody's fully self made.
00:27:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You know, like you're going to have a natural talent to it and then that's going to get you into a good position or a good school. And then you're going to learn from good people and then you're going to develop good connections and then you're going to have a successful career because x Y, or Z. I guess none of it is just talent or just hard work.
00:27:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that reminds me you of something my dad said to me. I had just got my PhD and my stepmom was like, oh, Paul, you're so brilliant.
00:27:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's wonderful. And my dad goes, he's not brilliant.
00:27:53
Mary
He's not brilliant.
00:27:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He just works hard. was like,
00:27:57
Mary
He's just worked hard.
00:27:58
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, that's...
00:28:01
Mary
Oh man, you should have Asian parents. They'll just what always tell you that nothing nothing's good.
00:28:04
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's...
00:28:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:28:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's an interesting thing to say.
00:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like
00:28:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
What was your reaction to that in that moment?
00:28:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I thought to myself, oh, I mean, i don't know if he's reflecting his own opinion of himself because he sees me.
00:28:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm...
00:28:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He sees himself in me or if he's right. Like maybe it is mostly hard work. I wasn't I wasn't offended or defensive at all. I was like, wow, that's a really interesting.
00:28:31
Mary
Did you take it as a compliment?
00:28:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't know how to take. I don't know how to take it at the time.
00:28:37
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:28:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I wasn't sure if it was a slammer or like somewhere in between. and
00:28:41
NAP-E-BYE BABY
How do you, how do you, out his ah his intentions aside, how do you take that now, reflecting back on it?
00:28:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i don't know.
00:28:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's not smart. He just, well, it's a family joke. Every time we see each other, we're like, he's not smart. He just works hard. So that's that's become a thing. um How do I take it now?
00:28:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know. Eric, it doesn't really move the needle for me. i think what my dad missed is I have an aptitude for learning. That is my aptitude. I have one, like that is the only aptitude I've been able to point my finger to and say, yes, I have an aptitude for learning. I pick up on things very quickly and it's almost effortless to learn new stuff.
00:29:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it has been, I've never failed at anything I've wanted to learn.
00:29:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Is your dad the same way?
00:29:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, he struggled and struggled and struggled.
00:29:25
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay.
00:29:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He had an inability to learn. He had a real hard time learning.
00:29:29
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm. So is that where that that thought, and i'm I'm fully projecting now, is that maybe where that reaction came from? Is this idea of like, well, it's not that he's special.
00:29:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
He's like, he is my son, right?
00:29:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes.
00:29:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so he worked hard because i work hard because that's how I navigate the world.
00:29:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
00:29:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that that's what I took it as in the moment. He was projecting onto me, him, his opinion of himself, but we're actually, we're actually very, yeah.
00:29:54
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm.
00:29:56
Mary
Wow. It's a real therapy session.
00:30:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Him and I are actually very, very different. So I don't know about that. um Last question about this. Do you feel more fulfilled um when you achieve something when it's based on your hard work?
00:30:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or based on like your aptitude or talent.
00:30:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It depends on how hard it was.
00:30:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like it's, I mean, the, the answer of is of course hard work because that's the answer that we want to give because we're, we're socially conditioned to believe that if we work hard for it, that it matters more and we've earned it
00:30:35
Mary
Plus, that's actually measurable. You can measure it in a quantity of you know X number of hours or whatever. It's so hard to know how to measure your talents or your aptitude.
00:30:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
but But that's the thing, right? is it's like so So if I make an object and it's easy and somebody smiles, somebody cries, somebody feels something big, like that's that's a measure of, i would say, my aptitude, right? Like I've learned a thing, it's easy and I can do it. And it didn't take a lot of effort on my part, but it mattered to them.
00:31:05
NAP-E-BYE BABY
If I do a thing and it is a grind,
00:31:06
Mary
If I do a thing and it is behind me, there's no, like, by the time I get to that end of that project, I'm like, I can't stand this fucking thing.
00:31:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
There's no like by the time I get and maybe this is just I've been doing it long enough that by the time I get to that end of that project, I'm like, fucking I can't stand this fucking thing.
00:31:19
Mary
It was so exhausting physically and emotionally that there's no, there's no, like,
00:31:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It was so exhausting physically and emotionally that there's no there's no like value of self reflection.
00:31:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:31:29
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And it is it was just fucking hard.
00:31:32
Mary
Is there, so you're saying that there's a point in which there's a line that gets crossed where before that you're like, this is so hard, but I'm so satisfied with now that it's done and I went through all the hard work and then past that it was like, this was just so hard that like, I hate it.
00:31:47
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, and and on the reverse end of that spectrum, like there's a point where like I could do a thing and it's easy and I don't think about it and it's just done and somebody loves it. And it's like, ah, I kind of feel like I cheated a little bit, like I didn't put in the work.
00:32:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, almost like working and a degree of suffering is required to feel like you did a good job.
00:32:01
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so like, yeah. or Or, I mean, yeah suffering is, it's not, it's not wrong you're not wrong in saying that.
00:32:06
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:32:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's like a thing.
00:32:14
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I guess what I'm thinking is just like, As an example, the cabinet I just made for Sarah, um even though there was an extreme time limitation on it, I cut dovetails because I felt like the cabinet needed to be dovetailed.
00:32:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And had I not done that, it would have been a lot less stressful for the time constraints. But knowing that I felt the thing needed to be dovetailed, that it got done with the dovetails feels good.
00:32:40
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So maybe like, you know, like suffering is not an inappropriate word.
00:32:46
Mary
What was the time constraint?
00:32:47
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ah Larissa and I had to build a cabinet within 24 hours each.
00:32:51
Mary
Okay.
00:32:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um And so we both ended up doing dovetails for some reason because we're both fucking masochists.
00:32:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:32:58
Mary
Or are you talented? That's all hard work.
00:33:01
NAP-E-BYE BABY
No, dovetails has nothing to do with talent. Absolutely not a goddamn thing with talent.
00:33:04
Mary
that's all hard work
00:33:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So actually, can we, as as a trio here, talk for a moment about why this may matter to the listener? I've been thinking like, this is an interesting topic about talent versus aptitude versus hard work. And I've always kind of thought about it about myself and like, what am I like? Part this, part that.
00:33:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like, why would a listener care about this topic? Why does this matter?
Understanding Imposter Syndrome
00:33:31
Mary
Because everyone's got imposter syndrome. They always look at someone else and be like, oh, they're so talented. Oh, they're so good. I'm sure they put in a lot hard work, but I'm also sure they have like more talent than me. And maybe that's true. I don't know. But it's important that everyone acknowledges that this is something that we all suffer from.
00:33:47
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I agree with you 100% though.
00:33:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a great answer.
00:33:49
NAP-E-BYE BABY
question though um Did you, either of you or both of you at the beginning of your woodworking journeys feel like go to a show, go to a craft or whatever it is and like look at other people's work and think that thought of like, I could never do that.
00:34:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
They're so talented.
00:34:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I knew I could do it.
00:34:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm.
00:34:09
Mary
Oh, I thought that all the time. i But to be fair, I also thought ah my first ah thought when I see that is their design sense is so much more interesting than mine.
00:34:19
Mary
It's not the craftsmanship.
00:34:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay. All right. So let's take the craft out of it for you.
00:34:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's it, Mary.
00:34:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
When you see somebody's design, do you think like, or 10 years ago, Mary, 15 years ago, Mary, did you think I could never do that? They're so much more talented. Or did you think, how did they do that?
00:34:34
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I bet I could, if you like given enough time and work, I bet I could do that.
00:34:39
Mary
I don't know. Honestly, I don't remember. I feel like it's probably sometimes both. Because that sometimes there's just pieces that blew my mind. was like, I don't know how they did that. i don't know how they came up with concept. This literally is so far out of my realm of understanding that I don't know if I could have done that.
00:34:55
Mary
But then there's some pieces. was like, that's a little bit more achievable. That's super cool that they spent the time in this... area. um I think if I had a similar amount of, I don't know, time and expertise, maybe I could do something similar.
00:35:08
Mary
So it really depends, depended on the piece.
00:35:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Did you, so I, I am, I think like Paul in that if I saw something that blew my mind, even if it was, I knew decades down the road from my level of experience and skill.
00:35:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Um, I never thought like I could never, my thought was always like, oh, I'm gonna, I'm going figure the fuck out and I'm going to do that thing.
00:35:27
Mary
Hmm.
00:35:33
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Um, But I'm wondering, like, so when you saw, Mary, those pieces that were so far outside your skill set, so far outside your your understanding of design, did it intimidate you?
00:35:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
did it Did it make you feel like, okay, so I think that's that's the key factor there, right?
00:35:51
Mary
No, definitely not.
00:35:54
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Of like, as a young person looking at those pieces, you're not intimidated by them.
Inspiration vs. Intimidation in Design
00:35:59
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You know you can't do them yet.
00:35:59
Mary
No, it's inspiration. That's definitely inspiration.
00:36:02
NAP-E-BYE BABY
i think I think that is an important thing to point out to listeners. Paul, all the way back to your original question of like, if you go to a show, you go to a ah museum, you go to whatever it is, and you walk in and you don't feel intimidated by those pieces, you're in the right place.
00:36:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like you are in the right field.
00:36:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I like that.
00:36:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
keep Keep fucking going.
00:36:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
00:36:24
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It might take you years and decades, but keep fucking going, dog.
00:36:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that message. So can I and want to like, be more specific about my answer. I would go into like, let's say the MFA or whatever. And I would see this amazing period furniture, or I would see, or I see furniture all the time on like Instagram.
00:36:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it, I always know how to build it. That's never been, that has never upset me. I know I can build that. No problem. Like I could always figure it out. No big deal. The execution never intimidated me, but I see design all the time.
00:36:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I am like, How in the world did they come up with that? That idea would have never come to me in a million years if you held a gun to my head. I couldn't have thought of that.
00:37:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's like the design seems... in many cases, impossible, impossibly difficult to me. Whereas the craft and the execution seems like, eh, no big deal. I could totally do that. No, now no, no.
00:37:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's it's this weird separation of the two because if i like with design, there there feels like there's this like ethereal component to it that I can't quite put my finger on.
00:37:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I know, Mary, you're probably going to say, no, Paul, there's guiding principles to to help get your, help get your,
00:37:41
Mary
No, no, no, no
00:37:41
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I would disagree with that. I think there...
00:37:42
Mary
I was not going to say that at all.
00:37:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like it seems so magical to me sometimes. Some designs I see seem so magical and so unthinkably good. And I would have never come to that in a million years.
00:37:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It seems insurmountable.
00:37:58
Mary
yeah it's because there's no limit in design. There's no right or wrong answer.
00:38:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:38:01
Mary
There's no kind of, this is like, these are the steps to take, which in craftsmanship, that is something you can kind of achieve ah the necessary steps to reach something.
00:38:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, it's linear.
00:38:12
Mary
Yeah. So but design is not it's not always linear. You you iterate, you constantly iterate. That's very cyclical. Just, I don't know, it's up ups and downs, too.
00:38:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
can Can we... and And I'm not trying to pick on you or push back against you because I know that that's like... the verbiage that you learned. But for the listeners, can we just articulate that iterating and playing are the same thing?
00:38:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Who?
00:38:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
For those of us who don't have like a design background, going through more iterations and more versions of a thing, and just like tinkering and playing and discovering, those are the same process.
00:38:42
Mary
Oh.
00:38:54
Mary
Paul, do you disagree?
00:38:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
He looks like he disagrees.
00:38:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no. Iterating and playing are the same thing, but one implies like it's easy and it's fun and it's just, oh, I'm playing. Oh, it's so great. and To me, iteration involves a lot of hard work and a lot it can be quite stressful because there's like expectations about what the next iteration should be.
00:39:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It should be better than last. and what do i want like I view iteration as like a scientific, like a rigorous, a very rigorous like thing.
00:39:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay, all right. That's that's that's a fair pushback.
00:39:16
Mary
Hmm. ah You would.
00:39:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, this motherfucker.
00:39:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But
00:39:20
Mary
See, I disagree with that because I think iterations.
00:39:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but
00:39:23
Mary
Oh, sorry. Good.
00:39:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like play, you know, playing almost trivializes it. It's like, oh, I'm just playing or, you know, it's not quite that simple.
00:39:30
Mary
Okay.
00:39:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, go ahead.
00:39:33
Mary
I would say playing is like more into experimentation. But the with the part that I disagree with is, or personally, is the iteration um part. Because I think when I iterate, now each step doesn't always have to be better. It's so that I can have a large field of choices for me to see out of those, which do I think is the best, which is not as good. What did I learn from all these iterations? So it's not linear for me there.
00:39:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. Well, that's a very art point of view. When I say iterate and I think about an experiment, ah like I'm going to do this and change this one variable and see if it improved.
00:40:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going to change that variable and see it.
00:40:08
Mary
That's so scientific.
00:40:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
soon as As soon as you use the word variable, dog.
00:40:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So
00:40:09
Mary
Mm-hmm.
00:40:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah so yeah, iteration, i guess I have a very slanted version of iteration.
00:40:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, I don't know that it's better or worse. Everybody's mind works differently. But I guess I'm thinking like...
00:40:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You hear a song and it just and like just like hooks in you, right? like it's It's that earworm. And you're like, what's different about it from every other song that uses that same chord progression, a variable of a melody? And the who knows what it is? Could be a rhythm, could be the combination of elements.
00:40:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
But 99% of the time, like and I'm talking about like actually, and don't want to say actually good music. That's a very judgmental way to phrase it. But like...
00:40:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Moving aside from like bubblegum pop into like people who write songs professionally, um most of the time those, those iterations come through playing and like varying two or three degrees and just discovering things. And then it either works or it doesn't. And they, they put out an album and maybe one song clips on Paul's ear one way and it just gets stuck in his brain. And another song sticks in my ear in a different way. And it gets stuck in my brain.
00:41:24
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like this is, this is why design is so tricky because I think my best work is X and Paul looks at my body of work and he goes, your best work is why
00:41:33
Mary
Yep. Design is subjective. I cannot say that enough.
00:41:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Well, ah for the listeners, i the reason we chose to do this, um I think, reflects on Mary's answer, which is if you feel like you're struggling.
00:41:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think we all feel like we're struggling most of the time. that
00:41:55
Mary
Uh-huh.
00:41:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
not
00:41:56
Mary
Yeah.
00:41:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Very few of us gave ah ourselves like a high talent score. I think most of it just feels like good old-fashioned hard work. And Eric, that's probably why you bristle a little bit when someone's like, oh, you're so talented, because it trivializes the decades of hard mountains of hard work you've made to get where you are and not not not knowingly trivializes you know but but you know what i mean it
00:42:15
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:42:18
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Sure, sure.
00:42:18
Mary
yeah i say
00:42:18
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't...
00:42:18
Mary
It would also be weird if they're like, oh, look at the hard work you did.
00:42:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, they've been like, you clearly have zero talent.
00:42:22
Mary
Instead just saying, yeah.
00:42:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hey you can be my it's my dad that's my dad it's just hard work he's not smart
00:42:25
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
00:42:29
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah. It's... I mean, that's fair. And i don't I don't take offense from that person. It's just... it's It's mildly irritating when people negate the fact that, like, you had to work really... But again...
00:42:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
that's like the American self-made bias of just like, we value the idea of hard work.
00:42:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:42:50
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And I get that.
00:42:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:42:52
Mary
Is there any culture that doesn't though?
00:42:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:42:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:42:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's a, that's a good question.
00:42:57
Mary
I think that's just a human condition.
00:42:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I mean, because we were we survived based on hard work, that right?
00:43:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Really?
00:43:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, human survival is based on hard work.
00:43:07
Mary
Darwinism could be a survival of town. Well,
00:43:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The fittest. The fittest meaning like you're good at it and you and you ran fast away from Mr.
00:43:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
i don't know. I don't know.
00:43:12
Mary
yeah, that's a good. Yeah.
00:43:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sabretooth Tiger.
00:43:16
Mary
That's true. That's true. All right.
00:43:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And ran fast.
00:43:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah All right.
00:43:17
Mary
All right. We're getting off topic.
00:43:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So...
00:43:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You're good at it and you ran fast. It's a pretty good t-shirt. Ah. Ah.
00:43:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so our second topic we're going to switch to our second topic early. we usually go like an hour, but we we thought we'd have a second segment today about the the importance, speaking of hard work,
The Benefits of Napping
00:43:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the importance of the importance of taking breaks and napping.
00:43:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ah
00:43:43
Mary
Oh man, I love napping so much.
00:43:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
all right. All right. right. I have a question right off the jump for you two clowns. um Do either of you wear glasses? Okay.
00:43:55
Mary
i I used to until I got LASIK. Or I got more contacts.
00:43:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
when i work at When I work at the computer for long periods, yes.
00:44:02
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay. So Paul, you don't wear contacts.
00:44:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:44:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mary, you did.
00:44:07
Mary
I did, yeah.
00:44:08
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Did you nap when you wore contacts?
00:44:10
Mary
Yeah.
00:44:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Interesting.
00:44:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric?
00:44:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So I think I think there's a ah this is fully like out in the Eric bullshitosphere, but I feel like there is probably a correlation between people who nap and people who wear who don't wear contacts.
00:44:31
Mary
Oh, because your eyes dry out.
00:44:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:44:32
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah. Yeah. So Paul's giving me that look because he's never worn, fallen asleep with contacts in and how fucking miserable it is.
00:44:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So what happens? What happens?
00:44:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So your, your eyes dry out and your contacts just fucking stick to your eyeballs and it's impossible to get them out.
00:44:40
Mary
Your eyes get dry. Yeah.
00:44:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Even like a half hour or 20 minutes?
00:44:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And. Oh yeah. yeah
00:44:48
Mary
Well, oh, for me, it was usually if it's like more than an hour, if it's less than that, then they were okay.
00:44:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like, I mean.
00:44:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow.
00:44:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay. Yeah. Any, like if I fall asleep for 20 minutes with my contacts in, it's just like, like suction cups on my eyeballs.
00:45:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't know you wore contacts.
00:45:00
Mary
Sounds like you got shitty eyes.
00:45:03
NAP-E-BYE BABY
oh Yeah, my mom's fucking like borderline legally blind dog the fact that I can read from eight feet away is a goddamn miracle Yeah
00:45:03
Mary
be fair, I was too.
00:45:09
Mary
so here i was too
00:45:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you you wear contacts every day? i had no idea.
00:45:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I've worn my glasses in front of you like many a time You just think i you think I was just like fake readers like I was just trying to look sexy
00:45:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i i saw your glasses occasionally, but i didn't I thought you just went without them.
00:45:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, just like, I don't know, occasionally you just want to pretend you were smart or something.
00:45:30
NAP-E-BYE BABY
All right, well, that's that's an asinine theory that I have, that people who wear contacts probably nap less, and I feel like that probably holds because if you nap a lot and you wear contacts, you probably switch to wearing glasses.
00:45:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, ah quick impromptu lightning round. Yes or no? Eric, is napping good for you?
00:45:49
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, sure, I guess.
00:45:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, is napping good for you?
00:45:51
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Probably. Paul?
00:45:53
Mary
I know, but I do it, so yeah.
00:45:57
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Paul?
00:45:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I'd say yes. And a study by the University of Michigan doctoral student Jennifer Goldschmidt and colleagues found that after waking from a ah midday nap, people were less impulsive and had greater tolerance for frustration than people who watched an hour-long nature documentary instead of sleeping.
00:46:15
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's all right. All right.
00:46:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:46:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hold up. Hold up. Hold up. This is bullshit right here, because if you have the type of lifestyle that allows you to take a nap in the middle of the day, you're probably less stressed in the first place and therefore have more tolerance for bullshit.
00:46:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, this was an experiment.
00:46:29
Mary
Well, it could be, could be.
00:46:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This was an experiment done and they were randomly selected to each group, Eric. Sorry.
00:46:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know.
00:46:38
Mary
It could be built into the culture too.
00:46:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know about this.
00:46:40
Mary
Like people take siestas and that's like a culture wide thing.
00:46:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that actually super interesting. So the research, if I could just kind of summarize the research quickly, cause I don't think Eric's going let me get through any of it. He's going to fucking take issue with all of it.
00:46:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, Basically, short naps have been shown to benefit everything from memory recall to like frustration tolerance and emotional regulation to um the ability to learn and recall.
00:47:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it seems like there are these advantages to taking a small nap. that You seem to have a cognitive boost after the nap.
00:47:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
let's say a cognitive boost after the nap
00:47:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but It seems to be case dependent because some people when they nap, it's just like short and they, and they feel great afterwards, like I'm describing.
00:47:24
Mary
I could see that.
00:47:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then other people don't nap because they're like, I feel groggy as shit after a nap.
00:47:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mm hmm. That's me.
00:47:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I,
00:47:41
NAP-E-BYE BABY
If I nap. ah First of all, if I'm taking a nap, you know that I'm in bad shape. Like that's already sign number one that I'm rough around the fucking edges. If I wake up from a nap, my entire afternoon is just like confused.
00:47:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know what the fuck is happening. I'm all over the place.
00:47:57
Mary
but I have a question, though. Do you set an alarm when you take a nap?
00:48:01
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I take so few naps that no, like because and that'll just fuck me up even more.
00:48:08
Mary
Okay.
00:48:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so...
00:48:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
If I wake up to an alarm in the middle of the afternoon, it's the next day.
00:48:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Eric, you're not a...
00:48:13
Mary
Well, was going to say, like, I was going to say, like, if you set an alarm and ah it, like, wakes you up in, like, the worst part of your sleep cycle, I could see why you're groggy then. But if you naturally wake up, like, maybe that would be better.
00:48:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Mary, do you nap?
00:48:27
Mary
Yeah.
00:48:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How often? How many times a week?
00:48:31
Mary
I don't know. Probably only like once a week, really. um But not that not for long. It's usually 20 minutes.
00:48:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. And Eric, you're a never napper.
00:48:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
i'm and I'm a never nude and a never napper.
00:48:43
Mary
It's like an Evernude.
00:48:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I am a definite napper probably two or three times a week, probably for like 20, 30.
00:48:54
Mary
Have you always been?
00:48:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, it's as I've aged. And it's like 20, it's like 20, 30 minutes.
00:49:00
Mary
That makes sense.
00:49:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I feel refreshed AF when I open those eyes. and And I just wake up naturally in about 20, 30 minutes. ah There's no alarm needed. I just, I'm just up.
00:49:11
Mary
yeah
00:49:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I feel like born again. It's amazing. And, you know Keith is a napper and he also reports very similar.
00:49:18
Mary
Yeah.
00:49:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He feels awesome after 20, 30 minute nap.
00:49:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, Keith is like Leonardo da Vinci in that he never sleeps for more than three hours at a time.
00:49:25
Mary
Yeah. That is true.
00:49:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So...
00:49:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So, Eric, you might be interested to know that whether people prefer like like napping or derive some pleasure from it, like or they feel refreshed after it seems to interact with how you sleep, like the genetics of like you.
00:49:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm.
00:49:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So for people that go into a real deep sleep. they wake up groggy as shit and therefore they're self-selected to not be nappers. Whereas people who nap successfully and talk to, you know, science about it. Oh, it's so great. I love napping. They are people who just don't sleep. They don't go so deep into sleep and just take this 20, 30 minute like cat nap and wake up refreshed. So I think whether we like napping or don't like napping, um,
00:50:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
has a lot to do with the type of person you are. And Mary in our chat just asked, are we bringing this back to woodworking? So let's bring
Avoiding Burnout in Woodworking
00:50:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
this back to woodworking.
00:50:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, I was shaking my head to know.
00:50:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
We're just doing, we're just good, good science talk with Mary Fallon Eric.
00:50:26
Mary
No, we're just talking about sleep.
00:50:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, no, that no no no this the the part is like, I feel like for so long, we we have been shamed from taking naps. Like, there was this bot, like in my parents' generation, um there was always this like, I don't take naps. That's for the weak, that's for weak people.
00:50:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's all this like machismo about not taking a nap, as if only like...
00:50:50
Mary
Oh, that is cultural though, because in some Asian countries they take naps during the workday because they realize that it's better for you.
00:50:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That is.
00:50:56
Mary
And then they work until 1am, which is also not healthy, but...
00:50:59
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Sure. Well, I mean, and and the the Spanish siesta, like you were just saying before, like, hey, we're going to take four hours off in the middle of the fucking day.
00:50:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
00:51:02
Mary
Right.
00:51:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
dude, I swear there's like a bias against it in America where like people would be like, I didn't fall asleep.
00:51:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Sure. Puritanical culture, baby.
00:51:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i was just resting my eyes. Yeah. Right.
00:51:14
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, yeah.
00:51:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You've heard that. Right.
00:51:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I was just resting my eyes.
00:51:17
Mary
Yeah.
00:51:18
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That was my dad's line all the time growing up.
00:51:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So ah bringing it back to woodworking, why i even thought about this is because like, I definitely like if I'm woodworking the whole day, I definitely get tired in the middle of the day. And I think like, rather than just push through it and like fight through it with all these machines and shit, I'm just going to go stop and take a little nap. Cause I think that is amazing.
00:51:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I found it very helpful.
00:51:41
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's so Zen of you. And I do not have that in my person.
00:51:43
Mary
I literally love
00:51:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, you,
00:51:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I am like, if I get to that point, I will literally like, I'll put on some fucking metal and I'll just like, I'm like, I'm gonna fight you until I fucking win.
00:51:55
Mary
Yeah, i I'm also like that because I don't have the time to, I barely have enough time for woodworking.
00:51:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
going fight this thing.
00:52:01
Mary
If I take time out of that to nap, then the day's just a wash then I'm like, all right, well, that sucks next weekend. Also, I don't have the luxury of going to sit somewhere comfortable to nap in my shop.
00:52:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I was going to say, I'm really excited for the day that I open the shop door and you're just napping on the table saw.
00:52:19
Mary
Or i come up to your shop and I nap on your couch. Yeah.
00:52:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Dude, Larissa and Amanda both nap on the couch.
00:52:25
Mary
Yeah, it's a comfy couch.
00:52:25
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, it is.
00:52:27
Mary
That is true.
00:52:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
See, they they know what's best for them.
00:52:27
Mary
Hmm.
00:52:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyway, that's my public sir that's my public service announcement to everyone. Don't be ashamed to take a nap. All this shit your parents told you, I don't take naps, I'm just resting my eyes.
00:52:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's bullshit. if you If you feel better when you take a nap, you fucking take a nap. That's my message.
00:52:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um we I feel like we don't nap shame anybody in 2025.
00:52:45
Mary
but is true
00:52:49
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Is that a thing that still happens?
00:52:51
Mary
o Good point. Yeah, i would that would not come across my mind to nap shame someone.
00:52:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
i feel like i feel like I feel like if anything, people who don't take naps get shamed now.
00:52:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah you just You just did it
00:53:01
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It's gone the other way.
00:53:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you just nap shamed. You're like, I just put on some fucking heavy metal music and power through it.
00:53:04
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You're like, ah oh, you've had you've had three cups of coffee today and didn't take a nap? Oh, you poor baby. come Come to the light.
00:53:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i Whatever.
00:53:16
Mary
I think that, but in general, like this does bring us back to the point, trying to bring us in here, to of like taking breaks. So like napping is a form of taking breaks. But in general, I would say if we're thinking longer term across like a larger range of time, taking breaks but between projects for woodworking, just to refresh. That is also really important to me.
00:53:36
Mary
Debatably, you can go too long in the other direction, which I constantly do these days, in which I take breaks that are too long and then I get ah no motivation to get back in the shop. But I do think it's important for people to take those breaks so that they don't constantly burn out.
00:53:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
How long are the breaks you're taking?
00:53:54
Mary
I don't know. I can't measure it because my schedule is just so erratic now. But there's sometimes I'm not in the shop every week.
00:53:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What have you been, have you been in the shop lately?
00:54:04
Mary
Huh? Yeah.
00:54:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What have you what if you've been working on?
00:54:07
Mary
It's just small things. I made something for a little competition that was local. And then before that, oh my God, i don't remember. Oh, my heart cabinet.
00:54:19
Mary
don't know. Just little tiny things that are achievable within a weekend.
00:54:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:54:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hell yeah.
00:54:23
NAP-E-BYE BABY
yeah
00:54:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And if you take too long of a break, what's the problem?
00:54:28
Mary
You just get so used to not being in the shop that you're like, all right, one more week is okay. One more week is fine. I have like errands to do or I have other things to do.
00:54:37
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Sure. Like there is, there's a muscle memory argument to be made, but I also think that you are the type of person that if enough time went by without you being in the shop, you would, you would, yeah, you would come to the conclusion naturally, like, okay, it's, it's time to get back in the shop.
00:54:49
Mary
Oh yeah. I get antsy. Yeah.
00:54:55
Mary
Yeah.
00:54:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
does it Does it ever make you wonder if like you're losing your spark for woodworking?
00:55:00
Mary
It does. I've constantly wondered about that in this past year. Yeah.
00:55:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've thought that before. Yeah.
00:55:07
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I've never questioned that about myself.
00:55:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that's your full-time shtick, but like for Mary and i if we take if we take all this time off and I'm like...
00:55:11
Mary
Yeah.
00:55:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
But even even even outside of that, yeah. Yeah.
00:55:15
Mary
I'm also someone who gets bored of things real fast. um Or not real fast, but I will always eventually, at least in my past, and I'm trying to work really hard on it, but i like hobbies have come and go. I've gotten bored of things and sometimes I stick with it.
00:55:29
Mary
Sometimes I don't, but I worry that I put all of this time and dedication into learning this skill and hobby.
Fear of Losing Interest in Hobbies
00:55:36
Mary
i don't want to lose my motivation spark, but I don't know. Maybe I'm just worrying too much though.
00:55:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it use it or lose it, Mary?
00:55:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
that's so unlike you.
00:55:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With work?
00:55:48
Mary
Shut up.
00:55:51
Mary
What'd you say, Paul?
00:55:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it use it or lose it? With woodworking? And the motivational spark?
00:55:53
Mary
No, I don't think so. I don't think it's easy to lose it. I feel like, sure, you might just get rusty in some technical things. But I don't think you'll lose it.
00:56:04
Mary
you'll Yeah, I don't think you'll lose it.
00:56:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've had many new woodworkers say to me exactly what you said, which is, I'm worried because I'm pouring all this money into a new shop, into this hobby. And i I tend to be a serial hobbier, is what the people say.
00:56:19
Mary
i see.
00:56:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Mm-hmm.
00:56:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've heard this many times. I used to be into photography, and now I have all these beautiful lenses that I hardly ever use. And then I was into DJing. And so my DJ equipment just sits in the basement and now I'm getting into woodworking and I have $20,000 worth machines bought.
00:56:29
Mary
yeah
00:56:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And now it's like, I'm worried that I'm going to like get bored and move on from that. And so I think your point about asking yourself, like, is this just a passing moment or am I really going to stick with this the rest of my life? It's a very like pertinent point.
00:56:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've heard it many times.
00:56:50
Mary
Yeah, also my approach to dating, so.
00:56:51
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well,
00:56:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
and that's now going to be the after show. i So here's two things I want to say to that, Paul. um Number one, if you can we just take a moment to acknowledge that if you have the financial capacity to be a serial hobbyist,
00:57:16
NAP-E-BYE BABY
you're doing a okay in life. Like that's, and that's a thing to like reflect on and be grateful for because not everybody has that.
00:57:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's good.
00:57:24
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um Also, If you are a serial hobbyist and you want to know if you're actually serious about a hobby that you are picking up, don't start by spending $20,000 on it.
00:57:36
Mary
but Yeah, that is valid.
00:57:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Start, start, start with the most basic and most frustrating things of that trade, the tools of that trade and find out if you like that part of it.
00:57:44
Mary
who
00:57:48
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Because if you like it when it's hard, you're probably going to like it once you spend $20,000 on it and it's a lot easier.
00:57:52
Mary
It's true. That's true. Or join like a makerspace, honestly.
00:57:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ah Yeah, yeah. Just like rent a camera, you know? but You'll be fine.
00:58:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are there hobbies you guys have ditched before this that like you thought that was it and like was a passing fancy?
00:58:07
Mary
Yeah. It wasn't a bouncing fancy for me. I just got tired of it. I ditched painting. i used to paint a lot. And it just never, it didn't become fun anymore for me.
00:58:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:58:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't know that I've had a lot of hobbies that I ditch. I do tend to be obsessive about things. And like, I can tell pretty quickly if it's a thing that I'm going to obsess long-term about, or if it's a thing that, um, I'm going to do for a couple of weekends.
00:58:36
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And if it's a thing I do for like a couple of months, ah sure. I'll spend a hundred bucks, 200 bucks, you know, whatever. And then just like fuck around for a little while. Um, um But I can tell pretty early on if it's if it's got that thing that's going to carry me through, you know?
00:58:51
Mary
For me, go ahead.
00:58:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's your long... Go ahead, Mary.
00:58:55
Mary
was going to say for me, I need something to work towards a lot of the time to keep my motivation going. So like I was running for a while last year because I had the half marathon in November to work towards. And then immediately after, like cook completely just cold turkeys stopped running.
00:59:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha!
00:59:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Shocking.
00:59:09
Mary
And I was like, oh, maybe I'll do like a full marathon. no immediately stopped.
00:59:12
NAP-E-BYE BABY
yeah
00:59:12
Mary
And this has happened. This has happened three times now. And like the day the day after the half marathon, was like, yeah, fuck this. never running again.
00:59:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Like, actually, I love pasta. So that's my new hobby.
00:59:25
Mary
Oh, yeah.
00:59:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Mary, Mary, is a violin your longest standing sort of hobby that you gave up?
00:59:31
Mary
I would say...
00:59:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know it was more than a hobby, but.
00:59:33
Mary
I would say yes, but i it was not a hobby I chose. So I can't really consider it that.
00:59:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, OK.
00:59:37
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Hmm. That matters. Yeah.
00:59:39
Mary
Yeah.
00:59:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, what was your longest standing hobby that you gave up?
00:59:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That I don't have any more.
00:59:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or that you don't do much, you choose not to do anymore.
00:59:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
don't know. yeah, I don't know that I would say that I gave it up so much as I just don't have access, uh, to a piano right now. Um,
00:59:53
Mary
Oh, I got a piano, bruh.
00:59:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I know, you know how long I was waiting for that text when I put that fucking bird inside the keyboard. So Mary and I have a longstanding tradition of when each of us goes away and the other person watches their house, watches their flowers, whatever it is, feeds their cats.
01:00:03
Mary
Right.
01:00:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
We hide these little chickens around the house. And the first time it was like 12 chickens around my house that I had to find.
01:00:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
uh
01:00:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
um And a couple of months, three, four months ah ago, she went away And I hid like six or eight around. And, you know, you you put them in the obvious spot. Like one was in the microwave. One was like on a shelf, you know?
01:00:27
Mary
right
01:00:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And then there was another one that she didn't find for like a couple of weeks. She was like, i didn't even notice it was here. And then I've been waiting for the piano one inside her keyboard. I put one on ah on a white key because I just, I wanted to know, I want to know how often you play this fucking piano.
01:00:43
Mary
Yeah, I don't play that That actually, that was a hobby that I picked up during COVID.
01:00:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It was literally, it was literally like four months later. She was like, oh my God. And I was like, finally.
01:00:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that's
01:00:53
Mary
I really went deep into piano and then bought my own piano. And when I moved here, I was still really into it. And then like that just completely dropped off hard.
01:01:03
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, so that is my thing. I love playing piano. I still do. And I just don't have one currently. And so it's.
01:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I had no idea you played piano.
01:01:12
Mary
You should come come over and play me play me some lullaby while I'm napping.
01:01:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ah Sure. Sure.
01:01:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's in the history of our friendship.
01:01:19
Mary
That's how that works, right?
01:01:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's the weirdest thing you've ever said to me. Could you just come play me a lullaby while I nap?
01:01:29
NAP-E-BYE BABY
If you think if you think I'm not setting up a camera and selling feet pics to the Internet while you nap like that's
01:01:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's Yoshi...
01:01:37
Mary
Wow, didn't realize were going through blackmail now.
01:01:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
01:01:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
got to turn a profit on this thing.
01:01:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it... Mary's OnlyFans feet?
01:01:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Paul, Paul, what's your hobby that you gave up, buddy?
01:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I don't want to talk about it after that.
01:01:50
NAP-E-BYE BABY
After feet pics?
01:01:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
After OnlyFans feet pics.
01:01:52
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Feet pics is your hobby?
01:01:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um... When I was young, I was really into computers, like all about computers, building computers, going to computer shows, buying the next part, like putting them together, like overclocking, pro like all that stuff, like computer, computer, computer.
01:02:01
Mary
Nerd.
01:02:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And of course, computer games came with that. And I don't know what happened, but I just lost all the just any interest in computers. Like I just want it to work.
01:02:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't fucking bother me with the problem the computer problems like And I still, I'm still pretty good with how to use them and fix them. But I just, I just don't have any, I don't know why it went away. And then trombone, like most of my life, like Mary, kind of like you, I chose it, but it was a long time. It was like fourth grade through the end of graduate school.
01:02:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And after that, I was like, okay, I did the thing. i know how to do the thing. I could pick it up any moment and still play it, but I just have no desire. It's just gone.
01:02:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I don't know why. And that spooks me because what if that happens with woodworking?
Evolving Interests and Hobbies
01:02:58
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, we continue to evolve into different people, you know, and and and who you are in 10 years isn't who you are now.
01:03:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know. i just, I mean, it's true. I just hope it never happens because I don't want that. and I don't know what I would do with myself, but.
01:03:11
Mary
I also feel like the older that you get, the more you like being comfortable. Maybe this is too generic, but I feel like when I'm younger, I'm more open to trying new things and abandoning them quicker and maybe not putting in as much hard work.
01:03:26
Mary
But now I feel like I need to prove something to myself. And that probably comes with age.
01:03:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:03:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:03:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's an interesting point.
01:03:35
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. I, I think maybe the flip side of that is as you get older, you have tried enough things that, you know, you, you learn kind of what you like and what you're good at and what that, what the sweet spot of that Venn diagram is.
01:03:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And so you tend to keep the things that are working longer than you did when you were younger.
01:04:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:04:04
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Because like, you know, like, hey, all right, I've crocheted. I've played the trombone. I've, you know, done rec kickball leagues. Like woodworking is kind of my thing, you know, and that's fine.
01:04:16
Mary
Mm-hmm. Yeah. yeah
01:04:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you actually tied this back into our earlier topic, which is the things that may last the longest are ones that we have aptitudes for.
01:04:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
You're welcome.
01:04:27
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And scene.
01:04:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, for real. And I i like trombone for the longest time. i was good at playing classical music. I was like a decent photocopier. Like I could play what I was supposed to play. But then I tried jazz and I failed miserably.
01:04:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I couldn't find the creativity. Like it just wasn't in me. Whereas I could see that the guys next to me were just like, improvising like crazy, all these great things. And I just didn't understand why. And I tried and I tried and I fought and I fought and I still was like, I mean, I got better, but I still didn't have it.
01:05:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I still sucked. And my jazz friends still make fun of me to this day. In fact, I'm having dinner with one on Friday. He used to call me one note Jasper because I couldn't think of what to play.
01:05:13
Mary
Aww, improv is
01:05:14
NAP-E-BYE BABY
The simplest fills of all time.
01:05:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it Dude, this is this is too, and he still says, you know all you need, Paul's really one good note.
01:05:19
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Leaned on that B-flat hard, though. Mm-hmm.
01:05:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like, fuck. But then woodworking came and it came so easy and it was so reinforcing and I loved it so much. And it just like, everything happened so easily and so fast. And so um maybe we stick with the things that we have aptitudes for.
01:05:42
NAP-E-BYE BABY
So do you...
01:05:42
Mary
That is funny. oh
01:05:44
NAP-E-BYE BABY
ahead....................................................
01:05:45
Mary
going to say that is funny because feel like now that I haven't been playing violin, ah like during COVID, was like, oh i should get a violin again. Like I should. I didn't. I couldn't fly back to the east Coast to get it. So i was like, I'm going to rent one. And then i was like, well, actually enjoy this again because I've like find this this is a hobby for me now like I chose to do this the problem was that my technical skills were not as good and I got frustrated with myself because I remembered how good I used to be and then was like well this sucks I will I told myself I was going to keep working on it but of course I didn't because I had woodworking and I wanted to to focus on that instead but I feel like it's true like you want to return to the things you that you have an aptitude for or are naturally good at yeah yeah
01:06:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
then
01:06:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because they're reinforcing and you want to feel good about yourself instead of constantly struggling, right?
01:06:38
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Well, also, you don't want to waste your time doing something fruitless, you know, like if if you're not good at it and there's a reason to do it.
01:06:38
Mary
Yeah, that is true. Yes.
01:06:45
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Great. Like you, you can bear that burden of learning a thing because like there is a point at the end of that road that you're trying to get to. If you're, if it's just a hobby, if it's just a fun thing and you suck at it, it's really frustrating.
01:06:59
Mary
Yeah, it's not fun.
01:06:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
Physical Challenges in Woodworking
01:07:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So what about this idea, Eric, of getting older? Like, yeah like this point was brought up about like, uh, getting older, less willing to take risks, less, less exploratory, you kind of cement into like certain avenues more as you get older.
01:07:13
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, I mean, you just... you just
01:07:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But specifically my question is like with woodworking, there's a physical component to it of like wrangling big slabs and like feeling tired from the the physical exertion.
01:07:21
NAP-E-BYE BABY
sure
01:07:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that something you think about with your future in woodworking?
01:07:31
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, i'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm working on a big door right now. And the last three days have just been me slinging these, you know, giant 16 quarter by 11 foot pieces of ash around the shop and milling them and re-sawing them and re-gluing them up. And doing all the things.
01:07:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And yeah, my body hurts, man.
01:07:55
Mary
So think there is that component of it.
01:07:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I'm fucking tired. um So I think there is that component of it, but I think what we do in, in I mean,
01:08:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
it's not just millwork, right? So like you can make boxes, you can make doors, you can make yeah small objects and large objects. And I think you can shift depending on ah what your body is physically capable of.
01:08:22
NAP-E-BYE BABY
What I know is um even if I was physically incapable of doing what I'm doing right now, I would still show up in the shop tomorrow and find a way to do something because I think it's just so deeply ingrained in me in, in, in a positive way, not, not just like it's what I do and I've never questioned it.
01:08:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:08:43
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I question it all the time and I keep coming to the conclusion that this is what I want to do with my life and continue to do with it. So I would just find something else to make, but yes, I, I am aware that. And like,
01:08:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
in 40 years, I'm probably not going to be slinging things around the shop the way I am now. But also like but Larissa the other day yelled at me for picking up something heavy and moving it in a way.
01:09:09
NAP-E-BYE BABY
And she was like, you're not going to be able to do that in 40 years. And I was like, yeah, but I can do it now. So why the fuck wouldn't I do it now? Like that was the fastest way to do it.
01:09:16
Mary
way to it. It's a dumb argument.
01:09:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
It's a dumb argument. Yeah.
01:09:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Mary, have you ever had physical limitations with the shop? Anything like that?
01:09:25
Mary
Oh yeah. Oh my God. I did a dining table that was a white Oak. I think it was like 200 pounds. It was so f freaking heavy. i had to get someone to help me. I was still in a maker space, which was good actually.
01:09:36
Mary
And there's always someone around to help me move it or flip the tabletop. Cause it was so big. And I was like, I'm not doing another dining table. Cause that sucked. And I'm a one woman business, whatever you want to call it.
01:09:50
Mary
um So yeah. So now I don't do dining tables.
01:09:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm thinking about this because I'm making a new sign for a ah local farm as part of volunteering.
01:09:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Paul?
01:10:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's an organic farm I belong
Woodworking as Volunteer Work
01:10:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
to. And as part of getting your farm share, you have to do some time in the fields, like picking or weeds or like picking crops or whatever they need. Like that's just a volunteer piece of of belonging to this farm. Everyone has to do it, even when you pay.
01:10:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I thought that's a really awesome, that's awesome. And so I thought, you know, what may be more valuable to them is that if they have some woodworking needs, I'm a woodworker, you know, maybe that's higher value, because it's, it's, it's, it's it's less.
01:10:28
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, not everybody can do it.
01:10:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, exactly.
01:10:29
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
01:10:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I said, I said to them, I'm like, I'm a woodworker, i would you'd be happy to give you some volunteer, know my volunteer hours in the form of woodworking is there's something you need?
01:10:30
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
01:10:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they're like, We need a new sign, like a big, like big, like seven foot by eight foot big, you know, like main farm sign with a roof over it.
01:10:46
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Oh, damn.
01:10:46
Mary
Oh wow.
01:10:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I said, okay, okay, let's do that. So the last couple days I've been, I've been slinging these.
01:10:57
Mary
Isn't your shot pretty small?
01:10:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:10:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I'm doing it.
01:10:59
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah, seven by eight foot is like half his goddamn shop.
01:11:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so i'm I'm doing it like in the driveway and like bringing things into the shop as I need be.
01:11:06
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
01:11:06
Mary
Mm.
01:11:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I turned my table saw 90 degrees to like face it out and all this stuff.
01:11:10
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Man, how thick is this bad boy?
01:11:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I've been... ah the The timbers, they're six, true six by six cedar timbers that are eight feet long.
01:11:18
Mary
Mm, okay.
01:11:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And trust me, they're fucking heavy.
01:11:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Damn.
01:11:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I noticed yesterday, my back like gave me a little tweak. And it's an ever present reminder that's like, baby boy, you better watch out.
01:11:26
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Uh-huh.
01:11:26
Mary
Oh.
01:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was like, but.
01:11:32
NAP-E-BYE BABY
But I also think like having grown up in construction and doing manual labor, I think that that always existed. We're just like, as we get older, when that happens, we're more aware of our mortality in the, like the, the aches and pains are like more, there are more of them in number.
01:11:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And they take longer to recover from.
01:11:55
NAP-E-BYE BABY
They do take longer to recover.
01:11:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're far more serious.
01:11:56
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's the thing. Yeah.
01:11:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not just like a little tweak.
01:11:58
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
01:11:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're like, if you have a back spasm, you're you're out for two weeks.
01:12:02
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Yeah.
01:12:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not like two days. So anyway, it just, i had a moment of appreciation that I can still pull this off, that I can still lift these things. I can still wrangle. And I've mortised and tenon. It's like mortised and through tenon on these gigantic beams.
01:12:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like I'm timber framing for God's sake.
01:12:17
NAP-E-BYE BABY
I mean, you are. Six by six by eight?
01:12:18
Mary
Yes.
01:12:20
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's timber framing, dog.
01:12:21
Mary
how are How are the letters?
01:12:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
01:12:22
Mary
Are they painted? Are they engraved?
01:12:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
01:12:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I CNC'd them, so I'll paint them. I'll attach them and paint them. So it's a little bit of CNC, a little bit of timber framing, but they're going to love it.
01:12:24
Mary
Okay.
01:12:28
Mary
nice
01:12:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's all cedar. They're pleasers pie.
Reflection on Mortality and Future Capabilities
01:12:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So anyway, all right, with that, kids, I think that's ah that's about it for our potpourri episode.
01:12:39
NAP-E-BYE BABY
No, we're going to end on the ever-increasing closeness of our mortality.
01:12:46
Mary
Oh no.
01:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, if you want.
01:12:47
Mary
God.
01:12:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I'm always down for that.
01:12:53
NAP-E-BYE BABY
All right, so we're going to talk about Mary's dating life in the actor show, yeah?
01:12:53
Mary
oh my god
01:12:56
Mary
Nope.
01:12:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a big yes.
01:12:58
Mary
Definitely not did not. Did not come back for this.
01:13:00
NAP-E-BYE BABY
That's 10-4. Hard yes.
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and That is a huge yes.
01:13:04
NAP-E-BYE BABY
hard yes
01:13:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we'll see We'll see you in the after show for the juicy details.
01:13:07
Mary
Oh my god. my god. I'm never coming back.
01:13:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.
01:13:11
NAP-E-BYE BABY
Okay, bye.
01:13:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.