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Episode 46 - Built to Break: Rethinking REPAIR in a Disposable World
1.7k Plays22 days ago
Why aren’t the things we buy made to last anymore? From furniture to everyday items, repairability has been quietly designed out of our lives—replaced by disposable culture and fast consumption. In this episode, we explore how we got here, why it matters, and what it will take to bring repair back to the center of craft. We’ll dive into the lost art of making things REPAIRABLE again, the hidden costs of throwaway design, and the growing movement to create objects meant to be fixed, not discarded. Join us as we imagine a future where repair isn’t an afterthought, but a defining part of craftsmanship.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
A Night of Unexpected Consequences
00:00:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I come home from the lab one night, I go into my roommate's room and I sit on his desk and we talk and I i start regaling him about my concerns about my weight.
00:00:03
Doctor who?
Yo.
00:00:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, all this sedentary time in the lab, I'm just sitting on my ass all the time. And while I was complaining about how I'm fat as fuck, the desk breaks in half.
00:00:26
Jack Thomas
No!
00:00:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I fall to the floor, lacerating my leg on the way down.
00:00:28
Jack Thomas
No. oh Oh my God.
00:00:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The desk that he had just been given from a neighbor literally cracked in half while I was complaining about how fat I was. In that case, we threw the desk out.
00:00:45
Doctor who?
I was going to say, is it repairable?
00:00:46
Jack Thomas
That's understandable.
00:00:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Another time
Cherished Objects and the Discarded Desk
00:00:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have this mug that was handmade by a friend of mine, lovingly crafted. It's the most beautiful mug ever. It has leaves. It has maple leaves, oak leaves, poplar leaves all over it, impressed into the clay.
00:01:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love this mug so much. And I backed up and my fat ass hit it off the couch and it broke.
00:01:11
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's different between these two stories?
00:01:11
Jack Thomas
Hmm. Hmm.
00:01:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The first story, we threw the desk out, no problem. we threw it out that night and the neighbor who gave it to us saw us carrying it out and was like, hey, what'd you do with that desk I just gave you?
00:01:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In the second story, I was so upset that I broke this mug. I tried to glue it back together and I realized it was just in too many pieces and I couldn't and I begged the artist to make me another one just like it and she did.
00:01:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's the difference between these two stories? Why did I care so little about, why did we care so little about that Ikea desk that my fat ass fell through? And why did I care so much about the mug?
Why Do We Care for Some Objects More Than Others?
00:01:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This episode is about why do we care for certain things? Why do we repair certain things? How can we make things more repairable for the future?
00:02:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And how do we integrate this ideology into our craft?
00:02:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, here we are again with the with the cold open.
00:02:23
Jack Thomas
You.
00:02:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is Woodworking is Bullshit.
00:02:28
Doctor who?
Goddamn that was smooth as eggs too buddy.
00:02:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul.
00:02:30
Jack Thomas
Amazing.
00:02:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper from Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And I'm here with two of my absolute favorite co-hosts, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:02:40
Doctor who?
Como estas mother bitches?
00:02:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And in the other chair tonight, Jack Thomas. Jack, your labels keep changing. Art professor, homesteader, idealist.
00:02:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah What else?
00:02:54
Jack Thomas
Oh, definitely that last one.
00:02:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:02:55
Jack Thomas
Way too much.
00:02:55
Doctor who?
Goddamn voice of a generation.
00:02:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the sexiest voice ah in all of podcasting.
00:02:57
Jack Thomas
ah Yes.
00:02:59
Doctor who?
ah
00:03:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Guys.
00:03:01
Jack Thomas
Or at least east of the Mississippi.
00:03:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think you already know what today's topic is. And i think we got to this because all three of us have a bee in our bonnet about the disposable generation that we live in.
Disposable Culture vs. Repairability
00:03:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It bothers me every day, every time I throw away something plastic, every time I hear about or every time I see something break in my house that is not repairable or I don't know how to repair it.
00:03:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we thought today we would talk about Well, disposability and repair. And this borders on a lot of other topics. Like, how did we get here? How did we get to the disposable revolution?
00:03:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think that bears on our previous episode with Jack on the loss of ornamentation. Like, um changes in economics and globalization and you know and ease of production and material science, right?
00:03:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a bit of that. And there's a bit of... Well, how can we engineer things to not be thrown away? Which bears on a previous episode with Mary on emotionally durable design.
00:04:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I'd like to just start by reviewing, like, how did we get here? How did we get to a place where everything's so shitty that we just wind up throwing it away? And then we'll transition to, well, what do you do in your current practice? And for all the listeners, are you thinking about repairability with the things you make?
00:04:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
with the items in your home. And i think we'll lead off with where do we go from here in the future? So ah with that framework in mind, um maybe we'll just reflect. Why do you guys
Emotional Connections to Objects
00:04:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
have a bee in your bonnet about repairability in the first place?
00:04:44
Jack Thomas
I don't want to live in a world that can't be repaired.
00:04:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why?
00:04:50
Jack Thomas
I don't like the idea of tossing things away. And I think it might be just, I'm not a sentimental person, but I just feel so wasteful. And like, I'm like, I'm telling something that it has no potential for use anymore.
00:05:03
Jack Thomas
And I guess I feel when I do that, I kind of think about like even human relationships, like how do we do that in human relationships sometimes as well?
00:05:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow yeah
00:05:14
Jack Thomas
Yeah, I know.
00:05:14
Doctor who?
I mean, that's a whole different fucking episode, buddy.
00:05:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:05:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:05:17
Jack Thomas
Yeah, next time, next time.
00:05:20
Jack Thomas
But to see that it is.
00:05:20
Doctor who?
Disposable human relationships is a strong one.
00:05:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you know, if you treat items as disposable, is it that far of a ah you know that you treat relationships?
00:05:28
Doctor who?
and Sure, sure.
00:05:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
as is Yeah. we're going to Let's touch on that in another episode or maybe the after show.
00:05:32
Doctor who?
Oh, boy.
00:05:32
Jack Thomas
maybe Maybe later, maybe later.
00:05:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:05:34
Doctor who?
oh boy.
00:05:34
Jack Thomas
the the the short The short non-philosophical answer is my dad ah used to work in a landfill and I pretty much grew up in a landfill watching, yeah.
00:05:43
Doctor who?
i was wondering what your what your visual representation of throwing things away was.
00:05:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, Jack.
00:05:46
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah. I mean, literally mountains, mountains of trash that just fill up more and get compacted more every day. But my dad loves to save things.
00:05:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:05:56
Jack Thomas
And he would bring things home all the time that were like, people would people would throw away like literal gold jewelry because it was in like a shitty cardboard box that they wanted to throw away.
00:05:59
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:06:06
Jack Thomas
And they didn't even look in the box. Like,
00:06:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:06:08
Jack Thomas
That kind of cultural mentality, I feel like it spills over to things that are not just our stuff. So when I throw away stuff, I kind of see it as other things too, you know?
00:06:17
Doctor who?
Is it escapable? And maybe I'm jumping the gun on this, though. But like the the the world in which we inhabit is like we have this is the world we have.
00:06:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:06:28
Doctor who?
And if we want to buy like i i don't remember where I was. I was in a grocery store recently
Sustainable Practices vs. Convenience
00:06:35
Doctor who?
and all of the apples were individually wrapped in Saran wrap. And it was like, what the fuck are we doing guys?
00:06:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ugh.
00:06:40
Jack Thomas
Oh my God.
00:06:41
Doctor who?
And every time I go to the grocery store, I get dirty looks from the cashiers because I never put the vegetables in the bags. And they're just like, what? I have to touch your vegetables. I'm like, guys, I'll fucking wash them before I eat them. Like it's fine.
00:06:55
Doctor who?
um But this is the world we inhabit. So is it, Is it possible to traverse this world without throwing shit away so heavily?
00:07:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Eric, ah can we come back to that? Because what I want to hear from you first is when you throw shit away and you're a maker, you're a fixer, that's kind of in your DNA.
00:07:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How's it make you feel?
00:07:17
Doctor who?
It depends on the scale of the object. um It's, it's, I mean, i I am a fixer because I grew up poor. So I like, you know, I can't anything
Economic Challenges in Affording Durability
00:07:30
Doctor who?
that's in my space. Like if there's something wrong with it, part of it is just curiosity, but part of it I think is learned practice of just like, okay, how do I fix it?
00:07:38
Doctor who?
um Even if it's like an Ikea table, like I can fix the leg, I can reinforce it. I can make that thing last another five years if I take 20 minutes of work to it. Um, but I, and I do this in the shop too.
00:07:51
Doctor who?
Um, the, my wood area, Larissa makes fun of me constantly because like the tiniest little scraps are still like propped up against the wall with all the other woods because like, I can't differentiate the value between the two.
00:08:05
Doctor who?
And i'm like, one day I'm going to need that poplar for a jig. And she's like, it's one eighth of an inch by four inches.
00:08:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:08:11
Doctor who?
Put it in the fucking burn bin.
00:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Every Eric, every time i put something, I throw something away or put something in the quote unquote recycle bin. And we all know that less than 10% of plastic is recycled.
00:08:22
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:08:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um I think about it. I think about it. I think every time I take a paper towel off the paper towel holder, I think about it. Should I have used a cloth?
00:08:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why did I choose a non, like, why did I choose the paper? I should have used the cloth. Every time I leave the water running, why am I doing that? Turn it off.
00:08:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Every, it just, I don't understand why this has happened to me. I guess because I'm so concerned about the environment in a general sense that I'm trying to absolutely minimize my footprint, but I'm a bit of a hypocrite.
00:09:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like i'll throw Like I'll throw a plastic container away, but I won't use epoxy in the shop. It's like, huh?
00:09:12
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:09:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're both plastic, dog.
00:09:13
Jack Thomas
two
00:09:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you doing? So it's like, it i guess where I'm at is it hurts me on a daily basis to not repair, to not conserve as best I can.
00:09:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But yet to your point, Eric, we live in this world where when you buy milk, it's in a plastic container more often than not.
00:09:33
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:09:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I haven't sought out glass only where I can return it, but there's only so much time in a day for you to make all the right choices for the environment.
00:09:34
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:09:44
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:09:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are you buying your food and pasture raised? Are you getting your milk from the local milk person in glass bottles? Are you making sure you're not cooking with anything plastic? Are you using as little energy as possible?
00:09:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you doing to minimize your energy
Middle-Class Choices and Sustainability
00:10:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
footprint? Uh, what are you throwing away? Could you have repaired it? Dude, this plagues me on a daily basis. And so, yeah, I have a real bee in my bonnet about throwing away something that I could repair, but often with circuit boards in toasters and shit.
00:10:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, like like recently my toaster shit the bed and I look inside and there's a circuit board and I'm like, what the, what do I do with this?
00:10:25
Doctor who?
It's above your pay grade.
00:10:27
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah.
00:10:27
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:10:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm not an electrical engineer who has all the equipment to diagnose a random ass circuit board in a toaster. So then I was like, okay, how do I buy a toaster that never breaks? There's gotta be some fucking German company, right?
00:10:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Who has like, i know.
00:10:40
Doctor who?
Yeah, you buy one from 1950, but it's about 10% de-efficiency.
00:10:45
Doctor who?
And so...
00:10:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I got news for you. My stove is from 1950.
00:10:49
Doctor who?
Uh-huh.
00:10:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Big surprise there.
00:10:50
Doctor who?
Uh-huh.
00:10:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I use it every day. But yeah, what's the efficiency on that? I mean, it's like it's an electric stove.
00:10:54
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:10:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But yeah, I have a huge, huge bee in my bonnet about this all the time. And not only that, but it bleeds into how I think about craft. Like when I make something, is this going to hit the landfill or is this going to last?
00:11:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Sorry, I'll get off the soapbox. I'm just so upset on a daily basis.
00:11:14
Jack Thomas
Stay on it, dog.
00:11:14
Doctor who?
No, I love when Preacher Paul comes out.
00:11:15
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Love Preacher Paul.
00:11:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's pouring out of me. I'm going to shut up now. So where where are you guys currently with this? Do you relate to some of that?
00:11:24
Doctor who?
in In our craft?
00:11:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Either. Either.
00:11:28
Doctor who?
I think about repairability in my work to a large extent, but it is not my singular focus. It's not the thing I think most about.
00:11:40
Doctor who?
There are times where like If I really wanted to go a whole hog and all I ever used was high glue and then like Japanese joinery, if it's, you know, exposed to the elements to make sure that everything stays together, all of that is good and well and great. And we, we put that up on a pedestal on social media or just in media in general, and and it deserves to be put on a pedestal. i'm not knocking it.
00:12:04
Doctor who?
Um, But we don't, when you're consuming it in the form of a video and you don't have a lot of context for what it takes to create those things, um it can become romanticized in a way that you're like, well, why don't we all just take four days to carve the bottom of a post to perfectly fit the curves of a rock so that when you lay the foundation of the house, those posts and beams are like, they're not going to deteriorate.
Crafting High-Quality Goods for the Masses
00:12:30
Doctor who?
and it's like, well, because that one fucking post took that guy four days. That's what how much do you want to pay your workers?
00:12:37
Doctor who?
You know, how much do my clients want to pay me and how much time do I actually have to produce the objects that are going to keep a roof over my head? There are practical considerations.
00:12:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Very great. great
00:12:52
Jack Thomas
Have we all just become so busy for one reason or another that things that are convenience are no longer convenience, but like a necessity. Cause I do feel that way. I feel that way about a lot of the things that I throw away. Like Greg and I have a four foot tall plastic bag that we have been filling with other plastic bags for over six months.
00:13:17
Jack Thomas
And my goal was, and is that when we finished filling this bag of bags up, I'm going to take every single bag out and I'm going to categorize it according to what came in it.
00:13:28
Jack Thomas
And then like whatever our top three things are, I'm going fucking stop buying those things and I'm going to make those things instead. Right. But that's an incredible.
00:13:37
Doctor who?
Oh, that's interesting.
00:13:38
Jack Thomas
Yeah, it's an incredible privilege of time, though. Right. You know, self-employed, no commute.
00:13:41
Doctor who?
How's yeah, that was my first thought Jesus Christ.
00:13:44
Jack Thomas
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I can tell you, like, the number one thing is going to be fucking bagels. It's definitely going to be bagels.
00:13:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:13:52
Jack Thomas
Fo sho. um But outside of that, like... i try I try to buy things that I know can be repaired. Like I've recently gotten on this kick. I'm really hard on jeans.
00:14:04
Jack Thomas
um You know, every – when you have a homestead, like every piece of clothing is a piece of farm clothing. You no longer own something that you do not wear for farming activity. Paul, your wife can probably like attest, you know, to this. Like, you know, oh, I put on my nice shirt.
00:14:16
Jack Thomas
Oh, but now I have to go out and wrangle this chicken. You know, like it's – you You can't change your shirt. The chicken will be gone, right? Like you have to do it right then.
00:14:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:14:24
Jack Thomas
So i was I was recently traveling ah to work for a client i went to Texas. And I went to a denim store called Imogen and Willie because I'd heard that they're just like legendary, you know, legendary quality.
00:14:38
Jack Thomas
The jeans are like frigging $200. Right?
00:14:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:14:41
Jack Thomas
And i was like, yeah, I can't, I can't do this. But then I'd read these stories about how, like, if you get some that have a button fly, especially because zippers are so prone to fail and you just can't fix it yourself unless you're really skilled.
00:14:53
Jack Thomas
If you get a pair of Imogen and Willie jeans that have a button fly, like, dog, that's a buy it for life kind of thing, you know?
00:14:58
Doctor who?
yeah
00:14:58
Jack Thomas
And the whole subreddit of buy
Balancing Craftsmanship and Sustainability
00:15:00
Jack Thomas
it for life is is blowing up with stuff like this. And it really makes me think what's going to last if I take care of it, if I take care of it. And then what can I repair when it finally breaks anyway?
00:15:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, one so that brings up a question about is buying a, so sorry to have something be super high quality to last and be repairable.
00:15:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does that require a lot of wealth? That's the first question.
00:15:23
Jack Thomas
I think sometimes the answer is yes. I think usually the answer is yes. And depending on what the thing is, it costs more or less.
00:15:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, can you justify that on the basis of buy it once, buy it for life?
00:15:36
Jack Thomas
Being able to justify it and being able to afford it are two different things.
00:15:39
Doctor who?
It's a fair point.
00:15:39
Jack Thomas
I can justify it all day long, but dog, like if I wanted to go buy $300 pair of shoes right now, that would last me for the next 30 years.
00:15:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:15:46
Jack Thomas
I couldn't do it. I'm not going to drop three hundo on a pair of boots right now.
00:15:50
Doctor who?
But how much are you wearing those boots to like?
00:15:50
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:15:53
Doctor who?
So I feel like that this this conversation of like, well, the the the wealthy person buys a pair of boots once and, the you know, and it lasts them a lifetime. and And the poor person buys the same pair of boots 40 times.
00:16:06
Doctor who?
So he ends up spending more money. That's that's fair to an extent. But also the wealthy person also has other shoes, whereas the poor person is probably wearing those shoes out every goddamn day when they go to work.
00:16:16
Jack Thomas
So true.
00:16:17
Doctor who?
So it's, it's like a use case thing. Like I have mugs that I'm sure like the, the mugs that I have from our buddy, David Bellen. um You know, I've used those every day for the past, like three or four years. I'm sure I'll have those for the next 20 to 30 years until one day it falls off the bench and shatters.
00:16:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When your fat ass knocks it off the couch like mine did.
00:16:35
Doctor who?
um When your fat ass knocks it off the couch, you know?
00:16:37
Jack Thomas
true.
00:16:40
Doctor who?
um But like, it's, it's, I don't know, like, I guess it also comes down to a question of volume of like, how many of the thing do you need?
00:16:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Out of all your purchases, In a typical year, let's just say, roughly speaking, how many of them are the highest quality, buy it once, buy it for life?
00:17:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How many are in the middle? And how many are quick, disposable, I just need it now and I need it cheap? What's your percentage, if you could assign
00:17:16
Doctor who?
I would guess that um the overwhelming majority are in the middle. I very rarely buy a thing that I'm going to throw away immediately, like if ever. um i And maybe that's the the cheap
Personal Priorities in Quality and Value
00:17:30
Doctor who?
person in me where I'm just like, why would I spend money on something i'm going to throw away tomorrow?
00:17:35
Doctor who?
High-end purchases. i like I feel like that's maybe relative because I buy things that I...
00:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
High end to you, Eric. That would be high end to you.
00:17:45
Doctor who?
highend High end to me that I would like really, have like I would pause before buying.
00:17:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. the Yes, it would be a stretch for you, but you're like, it's going to last. It's going to give me the durability.
00:17:56
Doctor who?
I don't typically buy those things because um if I want one of those things, I will either make one of those things instead, like a lower end version of it, but I'll i'll make it. Or i have enough friends who are really good at what they do that I'll try to trade them for something like that.
00:18:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh wow
00:18:15
Doctor who?
Um, or, like a lot of times, uh, I'll buy the middle tier thing and then just repair it as long as i like I, again, Larissa makes fun of me a lot for, I will sew my jeans. Like I'll buy jeans off of wherever, you know, $20, $30 jeans. Cause I wear them out.
00:18:32
Doctor who?
Um, and I'll sew the crotch shut seven to 20 times before I throw those jeans out.
00:18:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow. Why is that crotch wearing out, big guy?
00:18:40
Doctor who?
I don't know why it's all. Hey, you know, you know, this is doing what I gotta do out here.
00:18:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hey, what's up?
00:18:45
Doctor who?
Trying to live life.
00:18:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. On that note, Jack, what's your percentage?
00:18:48
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:18:50
Jack Thomas
Well, I've, I've sewed many a jean crotch in my life. So I understand Eric, like, like, like you, I grew up like very poor, very, very poor. Um, and so I definitely have that, like, no matter how shitty something is, I have to squeeze, i have to milk every last frigging drop of utility out of this thing,
Scaling Craft Sustainably
00:19:10
Jack Thomas
dog. It does not matter.
00:19:11
Jack Thomas
Like, I think maybe this is blindness, but I think that this of the stuff I buy, maybe only like 10% is that like instantaneously disposable kind of stuff.
00:19:23
Jack Thomas
And I would say that usually when that's true, it's it's packaging for food because, you know, even though we grow, we love to grow our own food.
00:19:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Okay.
00:19:27
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:19:30
Jack Thomas
I love to make food at home. Sometimes you just get really fucking busy, right?
00:19:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:19:35
Jack Thomas
Like who's got time to, you know, make a dozen delicious bagels every Sunday. I'm going to find out because I'm going to frigging try.
00:19:40
Doctor who?
Hmm. Hmm.
00:19:42
Jack Thomas
But I think that um I would say that only ah to mirror that, I think only 10% of our purchases every year are like luxury tier purchases.
00:19:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:19:52
Jack Thomas
Now that's by volume, not by amount of money spent. I think that those, yeah, I think those 10%, those 10% of luxury purchases probably make up like 30% of the budget, you know, that we allocate to buy things.
00:19:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're right. Of course not.
00:19:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:19:56
Doctor who?
Oh, that's fair.
00:19:57
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:19:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Of course not. Yeah.
00:20:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:20:05
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:20:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. and So both of you are, ah your you two are very similar in that most of your purchases are middle and you both have an ethos of repairability. When you do go for the high end, what is it?
00:20:06
Jack Thomas
Most the stuff's in the middle, but I repair it anyway.
00:20:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what what What gets you to open your wallet?
00:20:23
Doctor who?
Outside of woodworking stuff?
00:20:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:26
Doctor who?
Ah.
00:20:30
Doctor who?
I don't know. That's a good question. um They're like, I, I am prone to infatuation. ah So I'll become a little bit obsessed with with a thing for a while.
00:20:42
Doctor who?
You know, so like, I mean, you all the time, baby.
00:20:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
me mm-hmm
00:20:43
Jack Thomas
you You got the ADHD, bro. Yeah.
00:20:45
Doctor who?
That's it. It's true. It's true.
00:20:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:20:47
Doctor who?
ah The so like, um you know, over the summer, I got a new motorcycle. And I got some new gear and I haven't bought new gear in a decade. And I was like, fuck, yeah, let's ride, baby. You know, new bike, new look was good.
00:21:01
Doctor who?
ah So, so, so you get some shit like that, you know?
00:21:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah ah
00:21:05
Doctor who?
um And then all of a sudden you're like, I just spent fucking two grams on new gear. Okay. Oh dude.
00:21:11
Jack Thomas
Two, two, two grand's on the low end.
00:21:11
Doctor who?
Motorcycle expensive is it's on the low. Yeah. Well again, I'm still cheap. Yeah.
00:21:15
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:21:16
Doctor who?
Motorcycle gear is fucking expensive.
00:21:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay.
00:21:17
Doctor who?
My helmet was mid tier and it was $800. Yeah.
00:21:20
Jack Thomas
Same.
00:21:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, what?
00:21:21
Jack Thomas
Mine's mid tier and it was $7.99.
00:21:21
Doctor who?
Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:22
Jack Thomas
$7.99. Yeah.
00:21:23
Doctor who?
yeah
00:21:23
Jack Thomas
seven ninety nine Yeah.
00:21:24
Doctor who?
True statement.
00:21:25
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:21:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
00:21:26
Doctor who?
Yeah, dog.
00:21:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are you doing?
00:21:27
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:21:28
Doctor who?
I mean, also, you know, if you get in a wreck, what do you want to have on your head?
00:21:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:21:32
Doctor who?
A fucking bicycle helmet? Like, you know, it's cheaper than brain surgery.
00:21:33
Jack Thomas
It's, it's cheaper than a, $7.99 is a lot, but it's exactly, exactly.
00:21:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
00:21:39
Jack Thomas
In this economy?
Integrating Repairability into Modern Craft
00:21:40
Jack Thomas
like
00:21:40
Doctor who?
In this economy?
00:21:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, what are you spending your money on?
00:21:45
Jack Thomas
ah Well, i so I sold my motorcycle a couple of months ago. So now, thank God, I'm not like, you know, I'm no longer hemorrhaging money on my favorite hobby.
00:21:52
Doctor who?
this
00:21:54
Jack Thomas
That was that was my, you know, my own personal thing. But um I would I would say that I spend money on clothes and not because I buy a lot of clothes or I like luxury goods.
00:22:06
Jack Thomas
You guys know, I'm usually like, I'm wearing a fancy shirt today because I haven't done laundry in two weeks and it's the last thing I have to wear. Um, like
00:22:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you guys I was going to say, yeah y'all without the video feed are missing out.
00:22:15
Doctor who?
Woo-wee!
00:22:15
Jack Thomas
you're missing out on this. Yes. Um, but I did get it at a thrift store. So there's that. Um, uh, it's a,
00:22:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And by the way, if you want the video feed, subscribe to the Patreon to see Jack in her laundry day negligee.
00:22:27
Jack Thomas
it's,
00:22:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That rhymes.
00:22:31
Jack Thomas
o
00:22:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha ha ha ha.
00:22:32
Jack Thomas
it is It is worth every penny, guys. Every penny.
00:22:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:22:36
Jack Thomas
um So i've tried to you know I try to buy clothes at thrift stores, but I look for labels that I know are like heirloom quality labels. And when I have to splurge because I need like, if I'm like, ah, I need another pair of jeans.
00:22:50
Jack Thomas
I've sewn the crotch of these five times. I got no crotch left, you know, like, you know, and I need to go buy something.
00:22:56
Doctor who?
ah well Who among us hasn't said I got no crotch left?
00:22:59
Jack Thomas
I mean, not a single person.
00:22:59
Doctor who?
You know? I mean...
00:23:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
both Both y'all busting out of your crotches. i don't know what's wrong with it two of you.
00:23:05
Jack Thomas
For different reasons, I'm sure.
00:23:06
Doctor who?
i mean
00:23:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Keep it in your pants.
00:23:08
Jack Thomas
um
00:23:11
Jack Thomas
mean, I'm just trying to keep myself in my pants by sewing the crotch up.
00:23:12
Doctor who?
Yeah, we just we just go big hog wild out here, dog, you know?
00:23:14
Jack Thomas
That's it. Woo. But if I can't find something thrifted, I'm going
The Future of Sustainable Craft Practices
00:23:20
Jack Thomas
to drop the coin on it because I know it's going to last me a really long time and it's going to be rugged as hell while I'm using it, you know.
00:23:26
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:23:28
Jack Thomas
And also when you open my closet, it looks like a fucking cartoon character. I've got like five pairs the same jeans, 10 of the same sweater and just slightly different colors, mostly shades of gray, you know, but but that's that's that's the thing I'm willing to spend money on.
00:23:42
Jack Thomas
Because I know it's going to last. It's going to make me comfortable in the meantime. It's really high utility. And good clothes are something that you can easily repair. I got a sewing machine and a serger over here.
00:23:51
Doctor who?
of
00:23:52
Jack Thomas
And I know how to like darn socks and shit, right?
00:23:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:23:55
Jack Thomas
So like being able to buy good clothes and repair them. who Who the hell is going to repair something that they got from Timu or Shein? You know, like you're just not going to bother.
00:24:02
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:24:04
Jack Thomas
You don't care about it enough.
00:24:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:24:05
Jack Thomas
You know, it's like the it's like the desk versus the mug.
00:24:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that poor desk. Yeah. So, ah you know, when I was 21 in college, now I didn't grow up poor. I grew up very like middle, middle class, you know definitely privilege.
00:24:09
Doctor who?
Paul, what do you spend money on, buddy?
00:24:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um When I was turned 21 and I was in college, my mom, because she was kind of an absentee mother and felt guilty, gave $2,100. twenty one hundred dollars for my 21st birthday.
00:24:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's an exorbitant amount of money to a 21 year old. Like that's just stupid. And like I said, it was probably guilt, right. And not being a great mother. Um, but that's another story for another time. Um, so is that the therapy after show she's dead now, so she can't hear this.
00:24:49
Doctor who?
That's for the therapy pod.
00:24:51
Jack Thomas
I can co-host that with you, Doug.
00:24:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um,
00:24:58
Jack Thomas
I was going to ask. I was going to ask.
00:25:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I shouldn't be laughing. i sound terrible. What a jerk. It's not funny, but it just just the way it came out made me laugh.
00:25:07
Doctor who?
It's all right. i laughed first.
00:25:07
Jack Thomas
But it is. yeah
00:25:09
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:25:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah So she gave me $21. And the question was, what do what do I got to do with this gift? you know And so I'm like, you know what? I want to buy a stereo and a pair of speakers, but I want it to be really,
00:25:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
really high quality so that I have it forever. And so I think I've been wired that way from a young age, ah even so much as a teenager. And I bought an Ankyo receiver and CD player and two Klipsch speakers that I still have today.
00:25:41
Jack Thomas
a
00:25:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm 50 now, 30 years, and they all still work flawlessly.
00:25:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I play them I zero but I don't use the CD player but the receiver is still working and the speakers still sound great
00:25:47
Doctor who?
How many CDs you got though?
00:25:56
Doctor who?
I could see 21 year old Paul be like, yo, check out this five disc changer I got though. I'm trying to get the ladies over.
00:26:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was oh you bitch it was a five disc changer I also bought a cassette player if that dates things okay so
00:26:01
Jack Thomas
fuck yeah oh yeah
00:26:03
Doctor who?
Oh, you know, got damn right. You got damn right it was.
00:26:10
Doctor who?
is He said, listen to how good the Boston sound on this.
00:26:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, you know, that to me, it seemed foolish at the time. I think a lot of people looked at me like you did what now? But now it's I've had it for 30 years and we use it all the time and it still works great. And I still enjoy it all the like we listen. We use it all the time for 30 years.
00:26:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So was that a bad use of money, even though it was two thousand dollars in total? To me, that was like an amazing deal. And ah thinking also about um what I will drop a lot of money on is my house. i live here.
00:26:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want to be surrounded by quality, right? We have a clawfoot tub that has been there since 1912. I can't even estimate the number of asses that have been in that bathtub. Right?
00:27:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I mean, my God, when ah maybe, ah but when, when it was time to change the hardware and repair it, I bought the absolute best all brass, heavy chrome plated hardware spouts, knobs, ceramic, the best I could buy because dude, this thing is lasted a century.
00:27:04
Doctor who?
Two at a time.
00:27:05
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:27:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what's not to invest in your own house. When I built my porch, I yeah had to decide what do I make it out of? Right. i mean, that's a fucking, ah Oh, I I'm sure this is going to interest every listener.
00:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What do you make shit out of? That's in the elements. You know, what do you choose? Do you do pressure you treated? Do you do treks? Do you do some kind of wood? I chose e-pay e-pay is like one of the densest woods in the world.
00:27:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh, uh, it it's obviously fully natural product. I was not going to do plastic. That's just not who I am.
00:27:57
Doctor who?
I fucking hate tracks.
00:27:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was not going to do pressure treated and I invested heavily in the e-pay.
00:28:00
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:28:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was like several grand just for the materials for the floorboards. And guess what? Here we are almost 20 years later and it is flawless.
00:28:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It looks so good.
00:28:15
Jack Thomas
wow
00:28:15
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:28:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And now my neighbors who bought their house, they're only in their upper twenties. They're 28 and 29. They their their porch is deteriorating. And I was curious what they were going to choose. The question is, what does the new generation choose?
00:28:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are their priorities? So they they talk to me and they're like, I'll tell you, I'll give you your options. You got pressure treated. It's cheap. It'll do the job for at least, twenty you know, 15 years easily.
00:28:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're cedar. There's Trex composites with plastics in it. And then there's Ipe, mahogany, sort of at the top tier. you know what And I was so curious what they were going to choose.
00:28:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They chose Ipe.
00:28:59
Doctor who?
How old are they?
00:29:00
Jack Thomas
And they could afford it?
00:29:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
they're They're 28 and 27. And they're like, listen, this is for our house.
00:29:02
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:29:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know it's a stretch. I know we're going to have to pay it off for a time. But this is our fucking house. we want We want to think of our daughter, who their daughter is only four or five months old.
00:29:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We want to think about her crawling around on something that we care for, that we don't have to worry about what copper azole is in it from the pressure treated or you know plastic can harm to the environment. So they they sacrificed.
00:29:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
money that they probably could have used in other places because they cared about the quality and the repairability.
00:29:34
Doctor who?
Sure. and And I mean, all right, all of this is good and well. But I want to take us off our high horses for a moment because because right now we're just like, we should all be more like us.
00:29:47
Doctor who?
You know, we're doing great things. We're doing our best.
00:29:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yeah, no, let's go.
00:29:50
Jack Thomas
Yep.
00:29:50
Doctor who?
So so if everybody tomorrow, if everybody fuck everybody in the world, fuck everybody America, everybody in the state, ah states of Pennsylvania, Massachusetts and Vermont chose to repair their deck and forego treks or ah pressure treated or Cedar and everybody chose e-pay.
00:29:50
Jack Thomas
Yep.
00:29:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:30:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:30:12
Doctor who?
We would clear cut the IPE forests of South America tomorrow.
00:30:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yes.
00:30:17
Jack Thomas
ye
00:30:17
Doctor who?
So so this is a real problem of volume of like, OK, maybe we are making things that are disposable. But if everybody switched tomorrow to a system that was more sustainable, we would drain the earth of resources in a goddamn second.
00:30:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, correct.
00:30:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And
00:30:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
100% Eric.
00:30:33
Jack Thomas
Absolutely.
00:30:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I would add to our hypocrisy in that people aren't worried about whether their debt goes 15 or 20 years when they're thinking about food for the next week or the next month.
00:30:43
Doctor who?
Right, right, right.
00:30:44
Jack Thomas
Bingo.
00:30:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's it's ah It's a problem of privilege, to be fair.
00:30:49
Doctor who?
Yeah, but and and yes, it is. And I think that's a thing that we definitely need to hit on. But like, if we do the thing in our craft where we go repairability and sustainability and environmentalism is really, really important. So I'm going to get rid of all plastic glues, or, or, you know, conversion glues, etc, etc. Okay, so that leaves us with hide glue.
00:31:10
Doctor who?
Tomorrow, if every manufacturer switched to hide glue, all of the fucking horses and cows would be dead.
00:31:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:31:18
Doctor who?
by That's it. They're done. They're done. So how do we square that with like, we need to be more sustainable, but also don't murder all of the animals.
00:31:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:31:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, obviously it has.
00:31:28
Jack Thomas
So are we, no, are we, are we saying that like craft at scale is just not sustainable and that like
00:31:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Jack.
00:31:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and No, it is. It just has to happen gradually, Eric.
00:31:34
Doctor who?
I think I...
00:31:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, look, look, the way you put that's real funny. Like if everyone switch, it's like, no, right.
00:31:38
Doctor who?
hi
00:31:41
Doctor who?
I mean, yes, obviously it's a joke, but but it is a real problem, though.
00:31:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like if everyone who owns a car on the earth got in their car, pointed it east at the same time and hit the gas all the way, would we affect the rotation of the earth? Right? Right.
00:31:58
Doctor who?
But I mean, yes, it's it's a very comedic, superman-y way to frame it. But the point I think stands of like, we we talk about, you know we should move away from plastics and to a large extent we should, but what's the alternative and how do we get to that alternative?
00:32:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:32:16
Doctor who?
And in our let's just keep it to our field right now is keep it to woodworking.
00:32:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:32:19
Doctor who?
There are so many things that we do in use, whereas like there are so many things that are still made out of wood. Let's take the Ikea is out of it. Let's just let's just go with cabinet shops in the developed world.
00:32:33
Doctor who?
hi
00:32:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:32:33
Doctor who?
There is a huge amount of cabinet shops in the developed world producing goods and crafts at a large scale.
00:32:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:32:42
Doctor who?
And if we went no more plastic finishes and everybody had to switch to either linseed oils or shellac, we would decimate the population of the lac bug and the linseed tree.
00:32:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, we'd run out. It's true. It's true. You're right.
00:32:55
Doctor who?
I don't know what the fuck that comes from.
00:32:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. ah
00:33:00
Doctor who?
But like, you you see what I'm saying? Like, we have to figure out how to balance our our our self-righteousness about these things with the practical realities of like, there's eight and a half billion people have been on this fucking planet and we don't have the resources for everybody to have an e-pay deck.
00:33:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I agree. Yeah.
00:33:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So it comes from the, it comes from the Aloha tree.
00:33:21
Doctor who?
Where does Lindsay Doyle come from?
00:33:22
Doctor who?
LAUGHTER LAUGHTER
00:33:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen. Yeah.
00:33:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ask jen
00:33:29
Jack Thomas
Okay, so I think, right, the economics of it is like ah is a naturally limiting factor, right? So luckily, we never have to worry about eBay, you know, ah phasing out because of our desire.
00:33:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:33:40
Jack Thomas
Like, I mean, honestly, a a week of groceries at this point cost the same as 10 board feet of eBay.
00:33:45
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:33:45
Jack Thomas
So, you know, so there's that. But I guess my question is, If people can't afford and or there's just not enough of something that's considered like the best quality of thing, what can we do to like make more out of what we have, what we are able to get?
00:34:05
Jack Thomas
What is like a middle ground of craft?
00:34:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I guess. Great question. um Can I, can i that's such a great question. I'd like to rephrase it too. And then point the question to Eric, Eric, you have made, um and you can point it back at me too.
00:34:21
Doctor who?
This motherfucker calling me out over here, nailing me to the cross.
00:34:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you, I'm calling your fucking ass out. You have made items for the wealthy, right? I mean, the amount of time that it takes you to make the items they're requesting are such that really the the people with more money are the ones who buy them, right?
00:34:28
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:34:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So lately, it seems like the finest quality only goes to the people with the most money. I'm just talking in a general sense.
00:34:50
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:34:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, I feel as though, and correct me if I'm wrong, and Jack, this I'm restating kind of what you said, but in a more verbose way. It seems to me like a century ago or two centuries ago, that there was this whole middle ground of yeah of furniture that was utilitarian.
00:35:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was not that expensive. It was like middle of the road or low quality. It wasn't pretty. it didn't It didn't have any embellishments. It wasn't perfect, but it did the job. It was like a stool that someone made, you know, real quick.
00:35:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and But it worked and it lasted because it was made out of good quality. Where has this middle ground gone? I guess I don't see, my point is I see the upper crust getting the luxury goods, the finest materials, the best craftsmanship. But where has this middle and lower quality bracket gone in recent times?
00:35:47
Doctor who?
I think the middle and lower quality bracket still very much exists. um I think our perspective on what is considered middle tier has shifted. So there's there's obviously still the low end shit, right? There's the IKEA whatnots, there's there's the disposable things.
00:36:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is all the Is all the middle and low, is it is it all mass produced?
00:36:03
Doctor who?
But
00:36:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is any of it made by craftspeople anymore?
00:36:09
Doctor who?
I think very little of it is made by craftspeople, but I do think there are some people who are making those middle tier objects. um And like the so the the first thing that popped in my head was like Crate and Barrel, you know, like it's it's West Elm.
00:36:27
Doctor who?
The things that like we we might say like people outside of the furniture world would say that's high end furniture.
00:36:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:36:36
Doctor who?
People in the furniture world is like, that's absolute trash, but it is solid wood.
00:36:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, no, I mean, I wouldn't say trash.
00:36:42
Doctor who?
It's not, it's not, but you know what I mean?
00:36:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's it's it's It's middle, I would say it's middle, upper middle.
00:36:43
Doctor who?
Like it's Matt. Yeah. It's mass produced.
00:36:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:46
Doctor who?
It's boring. But I think our perspective on what is middle has shifted. And because we've become so used to the price point of Ikea, then when something is sold at the price point of West Elm, like to some people, it's offensive.
00:36:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I see.
00:36:59
Doctor who?
Yeah. um But that is the midpoint now. And if somebody is producing unadorned, repeatable objects, CNCing them out, selling them on a small scale, they are in direct competition with the Crate and Barrels and the West Elms of the world.
00:37:14
Jack Thomas
But they're pricing like they're in direct competition with them sometimes too.
00:37:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:37:16
Doctor who?
Well, exactly. And that's what I'm saying is like, not only is the quality roughly the same solid wood, good construction, repairable, but the price point is roughly the same too.
00:37:17
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:37:20
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:37:24
Doctor who?
You're going to pay a few hundred dollars for an end table. Whereas you can buy one for 50 bucks from Ikea, or i can make you one for four grand. You know, those are, those are your windows.
00:37:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Eric, I like the way this is going. yeah So you're talking about high end, middle end, low. ah You know, money is so taboo in this culture, in this time. Let's talk money.
00:37:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
00:37:45
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:37:45
Jack Thomas
Love it.
00:37:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
let's let's ah Just to give an example, to give an example of these tiers that you're talking about, I think it's very helpful to all of us. So let's take a chair.
00:37:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'll start.
00:37:58
Doctor who?
ah hu
00:37:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'll start. A handmade Windsor chair from a well-trained artisan. $2,000. Okay.
00:38:09
Doctor who?
That checks.
00:38:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay What is a chair from West Elm or Crate and Barrel?
00:38:15
Doctor who?
You're probably talking, you're probably talking ah anywhere between $300 $800 chair.
00:38:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know.
00:38:23
Jack Thomas
They have, they had, I only know this because I was shopping recently, but they do have some like, you know, I'll even call it lower tier ah West Elm, you know, type stuff.
00:38:30
Doctor who?
Well, let's find out. let's Let's fucking Google it right now.
00:38:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah. I mean, they have things that are like maybe $130, which, you know, to me as a millennial where, you know, I'm so old that the light has already left my eyes.
00:38:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:38:43
Jack Thomas
ah Like, I, yeah.
00:38:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Jack, welcome to the club.
00:38:48
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:38:48
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:38:49
Doctor who?
Now, all right hold on, hold on.
00:38:50
Doctor who?
We're talking specifically like dining chairs, right?
00:38:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's say a dining chair.
00:38:52
Jack Thomas
Yeah, sure.
00:38:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How much is a dining chair?
00:38:53
Jack Thomas
Sure.
00:38:53
Doctor who?
Okay, okay.
00:38:53
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:38:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
37.
00:38:54
Doctor who?
Well, let's get, Jack, keep going.
00:38:55
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:38:55
Doctor who?
I'll let you know.
00:38:56
Jack Thomas
So um I think, I think, and Eric, remind me how old you are again.
00:39:00
Doctor who?
I'm 37 years young.
00:39:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
thirty seven
00:39:01
Jack Thomas
Okay, cool. Me, and me as well. Um, we both remember a time I think when like you could get something that was ugly, but solid wood, amazing construction.
00:39:12
Jack Thomas
I'm thinking about this like entertainment center. My parents had when that was still a thing, like for your big TV, you know, and shit.
00:39:16
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:39:19
Jack Thomas
And like, it was massive solid wood construction. We went to pick it up from the guy who made it and it was $500, you know?
00:39:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:39:26
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:39:28
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
00:39:28
Jack Thomas
Now, like maybe he was undercharging, but I don't think so. And that seemed incredibly expensive to us at the time. So, you know, inflation is probably part of it.
00:39:33
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:39:35
Jack Thomas
That becomes too political a discussion maybe. But like now paying $130 for a dining chair, I'm like, if something is priced less than that, I don't trust it.
00:39:46
Jack Thomas
But if it's priced more than that, I can't buy it.
00:39:46
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:39:49
Doctor who?
Sure. Well, that's the trouble, right?
00:39:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:39:50
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
00:39:52
Doctor who?
Um, so I'm looking on their website right now and it looks like their range is anywhere from like out discarding, like the $50 ones that are basically just like Kia ripoffs anywhere from around 150 to $200 to the, uh, most expensive single chair I'm seeing right now is priced between 1100 $2,000. Yeah.
00:40:14
Jack Thomas
A dining chair?
00:40:16
Doctor who?
yeah
00:40:17
Jack Thomas
From West Elm.
00:40:18
Doctor who?
from West Elm. There's a, there's another one right next to it. That is 1500 for, two. ah fifteen hundred to two thousand for a set of two um
00:40:27
Jack Thomas
i would just go I would go buy it from a local furniture maker at that point.
00:40:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:40:30
Doctor who?
Yeah, I mean, at that point, but but a lot of people don't know that what we do exists, right?
00:40:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:40:36
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:40:36
Doctor who?
So they think that West Elm is like the highest quality that one can get. um and And I don't think that's an unreasonable conclusion if you're unfamiliar with the world of of craft furniture or studio furniture.
00:40:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. How about something else everyone knows the price of? Cutting boards. All right. I've seen cutting boards sell for as high as... the highest I've I recall is like $800, 600, 800.
00:41:02
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:41:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They were of course, ornately patterned, ultra thick, really huge, all end grain. Like it must've taken that person forever to come up with that pattern and do it at such a large scale. Um,
00:41:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I started selling all solid wood cutting boards when I started woodworking for $50.
00:41:21
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:41:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I got a lot of people who looked at me like I had two heads, like thinking that that was crazy.
00:41:29
Doctor who?
this ah
00:41:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then when I started making plaid cutting boards, I was selling them not for $50, but for $250. And I couldn't keep them in stock.
00:41:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like there were so many requests at that price point. that I couldn't even, I didn't even want to make them. There were so many people. And then, then if you go to home goods down the street, you can find a bamboo or a cacha wood or whatever, however you say that ah for like 20 bucks or 15 bucks.
00:42:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's solid wood.
00:42:02
Jack Thomas
And it's good enough.
00:42:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It good enough.
00:42:04
Doctor who?
do you
00:42:05
Jack Thomas
Question mark.
00:42:05
Doctor who?
do you think well Do you think that um the increase in purchasers for the $250 cutting board was the effect of the perceived quality of the piece because of price point or because of the visual stimulation that was coming from the plaid?
00:42:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:42:26
Doctor who?
I mean, like you, you started out with, with the, the pig cutting boards.
00:42:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:42:29
Doctor who?
Right.
00:42:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's right.
00:42:30
Doctor who?
And like, listen, everybody does it.
00:42:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's right.
00:42:32
Doctor who?
I did it. I did the cutting boards with like the three stripes. Like, and then you're like, well, why isn't anybody buying it? Because every fucker who has a goddamn table saw on a planer is making that same fucking cutting board.
00:42:44
Doctor who?
And like theirs was $20. Why the fuck is yours? $50. You don't matter. Eric Curtis at 22 years old, you know?
00:42:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you just you just alienated like 80% of our audience.
00:42:54
Doctor who?
Well, I mean, yes, but also like I was that guy too.
00:42:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:42:58
Doctor who?
So like I, I reckon like you can't, you can't see beyond your current moment and and you're trying to figure out why people are offended that I'm asking $50 for this cutting board that did take me an hour and a half to make.
00:42:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:43:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:43:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:11
Doctor who?
So it's not unreasonable from my end. um I, I don't know. It's, A cutting board is an interesting thing, um especially now that people are afraid of microplastics.
00:43:24
Doctor who?
I think we have the advantage at this current moment, but we didn't 10 years ago.
00:43:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Advantage woodworker.
00:43:28
Doctor who?
We didn't 10 years ago.
00:43:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right. So yeah I've really enjoyed this this conversation on pricing because we actually put ranges on like the highest of the high. i mean, maybe there's a few examples higher, but ah you know to the middle, to the low. And I think that's useful a useful discussion.
00:43:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, we talked about you know how craftspeople today who are earning a full-time living have to market to the sort of the the highest price point echelon. And that there is a middle ground there.
00:43:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i think still, you know, hobbyists make things for the middle ground. I see a lot of middle ground prices on Etsy. Well made. um All hardwood construction, but definitely a lower price point.
00:44:07
Doctor who?
Well,
00:44:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Eric.
00:44:10
Doctor who?
the The old adage that I was taught early on is build for the classes, live with the masses. Build for the masses, live with the classes, right?
00:44:17
Jack Thomas
a
00:44:20
Doctor who?
Like if you if you sell to the high end, you're only selling so many things and you will make you can make a living, but you'll make a mediocre living.
00:44:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:44:29
Doctor who?
If you want to actually make real money, you make things, you produce things at scale and sell to everyone.
00:44:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, you're not going to do that as a single person maker, buddy, because your time.
00:44:37
Doctor who?
You get...
00:44:39
Doctor who?
Well, sure, sure, of course.
00:44:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah
00:44:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, that that pushes you into business and industry. see.
00:44:41
Doctor who?
But like, but and that's, and that's the thing.
00:44:45
Doctor who?
So I guess what I'm pushing back on is like the, the, like, you don't have to market to the high end.
00:44:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. i see
00:44:52
Doctor who?
And in fact, the smart business move would be to market to the mid to high mid tier and find, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:44:59
Jack Thomas
aspirational
00:45:01
Doctor who?
And find other people to produce your shit.
00:45:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Find other people to produce your shit.
00:45:06
Doctor who?
But then, ah but so that's the, that's the value of it, right? Like, what do you want to do? Do you want to make shit or do you want to make money? Because those are your options. Very rarely do you do both.
00:45:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a
00:45:15
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:45:17
Jack Thomas
dog i am not ready to grapple with that i need to i need to sit with that for a minute you know i i think
00:45:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you want to make money or do you want to make shit? Right, Jack?
00:45:25
Doctor who?
yeah
00:45:27
Jack Thomas
I just, i need I feel like I need to just go away and just think about that.
00:45:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:45:33
Jack Thomas
i I think, okay, I don't want to agree with what you're saying. To an extent, I do. However, however, as a printmaker, like I practice at the highest level of my craft, but printmaking is inherently about multiples, right?
00:45:45
Jack Thomas
So it's a different conversation entirely.
00:45:45
Doctor who?
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:45:49
Jack Thomas
The printmaking part aside, focusing on woodworking, I think that there's like a twofold ethical question here, maybe.
00:45:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:45:56
Jack Thomas
And i don't I don't want this to have to be a question, but like, like yes, ah marketing to the rich people and and selling to them is the way to like make the money and make the work, right? Like to be able to keep doing that.
00:46:10
Jack Thomas
But we're all sitting here bitching right now about how we can't afford X, Y, and Z. Because even though we make decent money, we can't we can't go out and buy craft everything. like My most prized possession, and I hope Keith Johnson's listening to this, my my most prized possession that I would like fucking try to pick up and run away with in a fire, the one thing...
00:46:32
Jack Thomas
I mean, but it's incredibly fucking heavy because it's well made. So I don't I think I'd just die in the fire. but
00:46:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh. Oh.
00:46:38
Jack Thomas
But is this beautiful, solid walnut console table with copper poles on it that Keith made ah for his course that he did with Teachable when I was the course, you know, courses I manager at Teachable.
00:46:49
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:46:52
Jack Thomas
And he gave it to me. as a gift for coming to New Jersey and like, you know, DP directing, producing, you know, his, his course, it is the nicest thing I own. I treasure it.
00:47:05
Jack Thomas
I would never be able to buy it. Not because I don't prioritize spending money on those, on those things. Right. But I just couldn't get it. And we're middle class, right.
00:47:15
Doctor who?
yeah
00:47:15
Jack Thomas
We're probably, we're probably even upper middle class to an extent, like definitely not even the top 3% or 5% far, but like, We're the people that y'all are talking about you should be marketing to.
00:47:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:47:27
Jack Thomas
So how do you, how do you square that?
00:47:27
Doctor who?
and
00:47:29
Jack Thomas
And then I guess the other side of the coin is like, do we have a duty to create some things that are nice that the masses can't afford? Like a wooden spoon, you know, every now and then or something.
00:47:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:47:42
Doctor who?
Oh, this is an interesting question.
00:47:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. ah Jack, two two points just came out of that. Three points. Number one, Keith is my angel. I love Keith. I love me some Keith.
00:47:51
Jack Thomas
He's so great.
00:47:52
Doctor who?
We love you, boo-boo.
00:47:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Keith, I know you're listening.
00:47:53
Jack Thomas
Love you. sure.
00:47:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
love me some Keith.
00:47:55
Doctor who?
Let's have handsome.
00:47:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um That's the first thing. The second thing is, Jack, your point. If we're considered middle class, why you know how often should we buy that really upper tier of quality. I think we have to pick and choose.
00:48:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We don't have enough money to buy it in everything.
00:48:12
Jack Thomas
for sure
00:48:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So each of us, we pick and choose. Eric, you pick and choose mugs.
00:48:20
Doctor who?
Sure.
00:48:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I pick and choose mugs also. That's so why we both have like $80, $100 handmade mugs.
00:48:25
Jack Thomas
Interesting.
00:48:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like who does that?
00:48:29
Doctor who?
Uh-huh.
00:48:30
Jack Thomas
Okay. No, i I do too, though.
00:48:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But it's
00:48:30
Doctor who?
Uh-huh.
00:48:31
Jack Thomas
I haven't mentioned it, but I do too.
00:48:33
Doctor who?
Uh-huh.
00:48:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so like for some odd reason, that speaks to us. And I think every person has that thing that they're willing to pony up the money for. it And occasionally I'm the beneficiary of that. When someone's like, Paul, I need a box.
00:48:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want this. Like I just yes to all of it. Yes to the price. Let's go. And because that is what that person wants, but they may say no to all the other things, right?
00:48:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I guess we have to could of kind of pick our poison in terms of what we're willing to invest the money in.
00:49:03
Jack Thomas
And are people willing to invest this because they know it's going to last?
00:49:03
Doctor who?
we
00:49:06
Jack Thomas
Like it's even going to outlast them maybe, usually.
00:49:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the purpose.
00:49:10
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:49:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's I mean, that's the goal, right?
00:49:12
Doctor who?
i do I do want to come back to that the question of an ethical responsibility to produce things for people who can't afford the highest end. But I also, before I do that, want to point out that the things that we buy that we're talking about, like let's take the mugs, for example, um lest we shit on production processes,
00:49:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:49:31
Doctor who?
the things that are being made by the the ceramicists that we typically buy from, it's a production process that are being altered to be one-offs ever so slightly.
00:49:43
Doctor who?
But 90% of the process for them is homes. Like David makes mugs.
00:49:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:49:48
Doctor who?
It's what he does. So making a cup is not hard.
00:49:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:49:51
Doctor who?
And then altering the tooth, altering the tongue, altering the eyebrow is what makes it unique.
00:49:57
Jack Thomas
So he's like a one-man assembly.
00:49:57
Doctor who?
But it's it's a production work.
00:49:59
Jack Thomas
He's like a one-man factory line. But there are these small changes at the end that are made.
00:50:01
Doctor who?
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:03
Jack Thomas
And that, to me, that doesn't make me love it any less.
00:50:03
Doctor who?
Exactly.
00:50:06
Doctor who?
No, no, no. I'm not trying to devalue it. I'm just trying like less, lest we get too high up on our horses of like everything should be handmade and unique and individual.
00:50:08
Jack Thomas
No, no, I know.
00:50:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:50:14
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:50:16
Doctor who?
It's like they are. And the things that we are talking about, we are able to afford are from the people who make one thing and they get really good and really fast at that one thing. And even though it's still handmade, they have honed the process of making it to be as efficient as possible.
00:50:35
Doctor who?
um So I don't want to disregard production processes.
00:50:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, absolutely.
00:50:39
Jack Thomas
For sure.
00:50:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And we've talked about the importance of production in previous episodes.
00:50:41
Doctor who?
Yeah.
00:50:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, Eric, to your point, though, about do you make things for multiple price points? Do you do it because you think it's right?
00:50:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
do you do it because you think it's a market opportunity or do you do it at all?
00:51:00
Doctor who?
I don't do it at all. And i want to put, I guess, a little bit of an asterisk on that because this is kind of tying into the ethics question, right? um i and I, I guess I want to,
00:51:17
Doctor who?
preface this like with at the risk of sounding too self-righteous but the I don't produce things for price points that even like I can afford or some of the wealthier friends that I have can afford but I do give away all of my knowledge on the internet for free And my hope my hope is that the people who can't afford it can, like i I have said this on the podcast before, I am a believer in the Ratatouille philosophy that not every like not everyone can cook.
00:51:40
Jack Thomas
That's fair.
00:51:54
Doctor who?
but a great cook can come from anywhere, right? Like anyone can be a great furniture maker or build beautiful objects um and in in that person can exist wherever. So if they have access to information and knowledge that could encourage them to make really beautiful objects.
00:52:12
Doctor who?
So i my hope is that by giving my experience and information and knowledge away on the internet for free and not putting it behind a paywall, that other people can make objects for themselves that are more sustainable than buying it from Ikea.
00:52:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm
00:52:28
Jack Thomas
So I guess the question is like, how do we all give something that lasts? How do we all make something that lasts?
00:52:35
Doctor who?
How do you do that?
00:52:37
Jack Thomas
That's a great frigging question. I make very ephemeral things.
00:52:40
Doctor who?
She said, that's a great that's a great question.
00:52:40
Jack Thomas
Don't call me out like that, dog.
00:52:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:52:43
Doctor who?
Thanks for asking me my own question.
00:52:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you turned that around right quick.
00:52:48
Jack Thomas
I feel stabbed. No, I, you know, this, this, this is tricky. So like with the question about, you know do we do we make things that people kind people like us right can can afford um i do because i make prints but they're so friggin ephemeral right i mean on the one hand there are prints that you know we've unearthed that come from hundreds and hundreds of years ago that are well preserved for one reason or another but at the end of the day it's friggin on paper like yes the the block the matrix is carved out of wood but it's on paper but i make that decision
00:53:21
Jack Thomas
for a reason because my my little inner leftist wants to make things that people can afford, like people can have in their homes and can be beautiful.
00:53:30
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:53:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:53:32
Jack Thomas
Like people need real art. People don't need like TJ Maxx home goods ass art. People need weird fucking art.
00:53:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:53:41
Jack Thomas
They need specific art that just, you see it and you're like, God, it gives me such great pleasure. to interact with this on a day-to-day basis. It enriches my life, right? I make paintings every now and then and I sell them to rich people. I market them to rich people.
00:53:56
Jack Thomas
And the prices have usually ah usually at least three zeros after the you know after the first number that's not a zero. And that's fine. That really helps pay the bills. That's great.
00:54:07
Jack Thomas
But I get so much more pleasure as a maker from making those prints and knowing that like, I'm going to do a run of 30 prints. I'm going to sell each of them for 50 bucks.
00:54:19
Jack Thomas
And those, that many people, 30 people can have this like really cool, amazing thing in their home. But I'm privileged because I make multiple things from a single matrix. When you guys make something, it's one of one.
00:54:30
Jack Thomas
Even if you copy your own design later, its still one of one.
00:54:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, it is.
00:54:33
Doctor who?
It is, but but the... i guess I'm thinking about... the qualitative issue of like, if it's on paper, it's somehow less good, less valuable, maybe less sustainable.
00:54:48
Doctor who?
Like, I don't think there's anything wrong with making a thing that lasts a human lifetime. I think that should be the goal in a lot of cases.
00:54:54
Jack Thomas
Oh, at least, at least, yeah.
00:54:55
Doctor who?
Right. And so like you, you print a thing on paper. Here's what we know. Paper will biodegrade. I buy it from you. And this is something I'm, I know I'm really bad at. I'm bad at buying two dimensional art. and i And I need to get better at it. Because like you walk into my house and there's 700 liquor cabinets because that's all I fucking make apparently.
00:55:14
Doctor who?
And then there's no prints.
00:55:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:55:16
Doctor who?
There's no art. There's no photos anywhere. um But like you you make this thing for a person who falls in love with it. And what I think is interesting about... like We talk about sustainability and like passing these things down to future generations.
00:55:31
Doctor who?
But how many of the things that we own... are our parents or grandparents or great grandparents. So few of them, right?
00:55:38
Jack Thomas
So few.
00:55:39
Doctor who?
And so how many of my pieces are going to get tossed in the fucking dumpster in 50 years when I, you know, i was going say choke the chicken. That's not, that's not.
00:55:49
Jack Thomas
That's not what that means at all.
00:55:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh
00:55:53
Doctor who?
So when I choke the chicken, how many of my pieces are going to get tossed?
00:55:59
Jack Thomas
oh Something's going to get tossed, but it's not going to be your pizzas.
00:56:04
Doctor who?
I stand by it. feel like I'm going to reclaim that euphemism. oh That might be my best derailing of my own point in the history of this show.
00:56:15
Jack Thomas
Of all time.
00:56:18
Jack Thomas
Oh my god. okay, ok okay. So, let me let me try to re...
00:56:22
Doctor who?
No, Paul's lost for five minutes.
00:56:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric!
00:56:23
Jack Thomas
No.
00:56:24
Doctor who?
There's no...
00:56:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric! Oh, wait.
00:56:25
Jack Thomas
I'm gonna try to re-rail us, guys.
00:56:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, i got I got it, I got it, I got it.
00:56:27
Jack Thomas
wait that sounds sexual.
00:56:27
Doctor who?
yeah
00:56:28
Jack Thomas
Never mind.
00:56:31
Jack Thomas
God damn it.
00:56:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, that didn't help. Okay, okay, okay, okay, wow.
00:56:33
Jack Thomas
I'm so sorry.
00:56:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow.
00:56:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How do we, all right.
00:56:37
Doctor who?
Anyway, the point is, paper's great.
00:56:39
Doctor who?
That was my point.
00:56:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. can't even.
00:56:40
Jack Thomas
okay
00:56:41
Doctor who?
Don't sleep on paper, guys.
00:56:43
Jack Thomas
Don't sleep on paper. You know, yeah.
00:56:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so, okay.
00:56:45
Jack Thomas
Mama's got bills to pay. So what, how much does love have to do with it? Like e Eric, the thing that you just stood out that, that just stood out to me besides choking the chicken is, is like, and, and re-railing something is that Paul, when I look at you laughing, I can't, I start laughing all over again.
00:56:52
Doctor who?
I'm possessed. I'm possessed.
00:57:02
Jack Thomas
So I'm just going to like go like this for a second. um Like how much of whether or not something is repairable and disposable has has to do with not just how it's made, but how much somebody loves it.
00:57:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:57:15
Doctor who?
I think so much of it does, you know, like this is, but this comes back to my point of like, if I buy an object from you, it matters to me. You're my friend. i respect the work that you do. I love the work that you do. And I hold on to it.
00:57:30
Doctor who?
And 50 years from now, when I choke the chicken, my grandkids don't know who the fuck you are and don't care, you know? And so it gets tossed in the bin. Um, and like my mother has my great grandmother's dining table.
00:57:46
Jack Thomas
wow
00:57:46
Doctor who?
It was not a particularly well-crafted dining. It was fine, you know, for the time it was, it was production, but it was good quality, solid Oak. Um, and it is, I've repaired it several times and I have said several times to her, like when the time comes, I'll make you a new dining table. She's like, i'm never getting rid of that.
00:58:05
Doctor who?
Not a chance because it was her grandmother's. You know, so I think a huge part of that is how much you love the object and the story that comes with the object itself.
00:58:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah The story that comes with the object itself, Eric, is what we touched on on episode, I don't know what it was, early episode on emotionally durable design.
00:58:16
Jack Thomas
a
00:58:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You remember that?
00:58:27
Jack Thomas
Great episode.
00:58:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With Mary about what does it take to imbue objects with attributes that make you not want to throw them away?
00:58:31
Doctor who?
Hmm.
00:58:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so if you're interested in a more ah more complete treatment of that, which I think you just touched on, ah you can go back to that episode. I do want to say that ah for myself, every year i try to make objects that are less expensive.
00:58:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't mean every year thereafter. I mean, once a year, i do a push of a less expensive object.
00:58:56
Doctor who?
hmm
00:59:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um because I feel bad that I don't want high-end art to only be for the rich people, quote-unquote, right?
00:59:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i I feel like good art, good materials, it's a natural resource. Wood's a natural resource, right? I feel like it should be for everyone. So once a of something that is very affordable to so now affordable to to to far more people than my average box, let's say, or my average piece.
00:59:42
Doctor who?
Thank you.
00:59:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I guess I just derive so much joy from watching people's excitement at owning like a beautiful piece of wood. I'm not tooting my own horn. I'm like, oh, wow. and They own a piece of my stuff and they're all excited. It's not even that. It's like, they're so excited. Like this wood that I use is so beautiful. I'm excited to have it. I feel like I'm a steward of it.
01:00:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I don't even, i don't know how I got so lucky to like to to buy it or inherit it or whatever. And like to pass that, beautiful peach of piece of nature onto the next person at a price point that they can afford, um, once a year, let's say, um, is awesome. It's awesome for me. Like, do I make as much money? No. And do I put a whole shitload of my hours into it? Yes.
01:00:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But the joy that I see art and quality bringing to other people makes me feel good, um, about, about it. So I, I do, I do it almost every year around the holidays.
01:00:37
Doctor who?
Well, and I don't want to let you discount the value that you as a person and a maker and a personality are bringing to that object. Because part of the reason that like, yes, it's beautiful wood. Yes, the materials, yada, yada, yada. And, and,
01:00:53
Doctor who?
If somebody were to encounter that object ah outside of you, outside of knowing you, outside of knowing those people, and they felt that way, that's great. That's wonderful. That means that you did your job well.
01:01:05
Doctor who?
But a lot of the reason that people want the objects that you make is because they admire and respect and look up to you. And that's where that love is imbued in the object. you know
01:01:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, thank you.
01:01:17
Doctor who?
like That's an important aspect of it.
01:01:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I appreciate that. Thank you. You're right. I don't think about that often, but you're right. Thank you. All right. So the last chapter of this, i think we did a really interesting job covering this repairable like money bracket luxury, not luxury. Like I love this conversation. It's been very highly chaotic and highly variable, but boy, do we stumble on some gems like Eric choking his chicken. Yeah.
01:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I can't even. Okay. So, um, but so thinking about where do we go from here? I want one last chapter of this conversation looking forward for not just us, not just the three of us, but for every listener.
01:02:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
where do we go from here? How do we make things more repairable? Let's start with that. There's there's multiple questions here. How do we make things more repairable? Let's start with that in your own practice.
01:02:19
Doctor who?
Okay, so not like general woodworking, like everybody needs to do proper joinery shit. Like it when I am in my shop doing what I do.
01:02:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, either Eric, I think either Eric, both are valuable.
01:02:29
Doctor who?
Is that what we're talking about? Yeah.
01:02:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like how do you make things more repairable?
01:02:38
Doctor who?
Um...
01:02:41
Doctor who?
that's so tricky there because there's so many answers. um Use higher quality materials, you know, without get it.
01:02:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What does that mean? What does that mean? What's low quality?
01:02:50
Doctor who?
its I mean, have you used plywood from China in the last year?
01:02:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, yes, but Eric, don't assume every listener knows what you mean.
01:02:55
Doctor who?
Like it's,
01:02:59
Doctor who?
Okay. All right. That's fair. That's fair.
01:03:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:03:01
Doctor who?
um yeah Yeah. If you buy a sheet of plywood from a foreign manufacturer and it comes in and immediately dan delaminates, a don't make furniture out of that, and B, don't buy from that manufacturer again.
01:03:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, so what do you what what do you suggest people make things out of?
01:03:19
Doctor who?
I'm not saying sheet goods are are a problem.
01:03:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
du No, I know, but but but give give some guidance.
01:03:22
Doctor who?
I'm not saying they're not. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Baltic birch, the quality is still pretty high, even though there are some, you know, qualities or troubles with manufacturing and shipping into the States at this point.
01:03:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:03:35
Doctor who?
um Apple ply never really took off, but it still is available. You can get it. Um, And, you know, solid wood, like don't be afraid to make your own sheet goods out of real hard.
01:03:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:03:47
Doctor who?
Like we've been veneering for centuries, guys. You can veneer over solid wood and you can make sheet goods in your shop.
01:03:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:03:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or you can just make shit out of hardwood.
01:03:55
Doctor who?
You can just make shit out of hardwood. Sure.
01:03:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. You don't have to necessarily use sheet goods or veneers.
01:04:01
Doctor who?
For sure. For sure. Use higher quality materials that you're going to be less apt to be wasteful with.
01:04:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So, all right. So Eric,
01:04:03
Jack Thomas
and
01:04:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
great. Use higher quality materials, Jack. What, what do you, what do you do to make things more repairable?
01:04:14
Jack Thomas
that's That's tough because when you make something that's not like interactive with every day and like any level of degradation is seen as the end of that, the quality of that thing, period, that's a tough question.
01:04:26
Jack Thomas
I think,
01:04:30
Jack Thomas
I mean, one bee I have in my bonnet with like ah student or like new printmakers is the paper quality. You know, people go and they buy these like sort of like glue edge laminated fat stacks of, you know, printmaking paper. And it's actually really, really garbage. It's not necessarily acid-free or anything like that.
01:04:51
Jack Thomas
Like using archival grade acid-free cotton rag paper ah is chef's kiss.
01:04:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:04:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:04:59
Jack Thomas
um If you're going to take the time, like,
01:05:01
Jack Thomas
I'll spend freaking 12 hours, you know, or more carving a woodblock. Why would I want to print it on something awful that like, that's an insult to me, not just to the person I'm selling it to. Right. Like I've degraded my own craft.
01:05:15
Jack Thomas
I've degraded the tradition of my craft and also degraded it in my own studio. When I, when I do that.
01:05:21
Doctor who?
Out of curiosity, Jack, what's the price difference between those two materials?
01:05:25
Jack Thomas
Between which two? Oh, those papers.
01:05:26
Doctor who?
Between like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:29
Jack Thomas
well, okay, like this is this is where I'm umm going to sound like totally a snob, right? And like it's...
01:05:32
Doctor who?
No, I just sounded like a snob. I was like, stop making shit out of cheap shit and buy expensive hardwood.
01:05:36
Jack Thomas
well
01:05:37
Jack Thomas
But you you can't not have that conversation no matter what medium you're working in when you're talking about quality.
01:05:37
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:05:41
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:05:42
Jack Thomas
You know, like it's it's it's an elitist conversation to an extent, even if you're not trying for it to be, even if you're coming from that blue collar background.
The Cost of Quality Materials
01:05:50
Jack Thomas
um The price difference is...
01:05:54
Jack Thomas
About 1.8 to 2.4 times more. So like you are, drap because paper is like the primary, you know, material that you're using when you're printmaking, you're drastically increasing your prices.
01:06:05
Doctor who?
Okay.
01:06:06
Jack Thomas
There's no doubt. There's no doubt about that.
01:06:09
Doctor who?
So like a ream of like normal bullshit paper costs.
01:06:14
Jack Thomas
that you can't even buy that kind of paper by the ream. Like I would say, okay, so a single sheet of the good stuff, a 22 inch by 30 inch sheet of the really good stuff is going to cost you.
01:06:21
Doctor who?
Hmm.
01:06:25
Jack Thomas
Let's pretend inflation never happened. It's going to cost you anywhere between like nine and a half dollars and maybe $13 and change.
01:06:34
Doctor who?
Damn.
01:06:34
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:06:35
Doctor who?
Okay.
01:06:35
Jack Thomas
Yeah. For a single 22 by 30 inch piece of paper, ah single piece of paper.
01:06:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like $13 for a piece of paper.
01:06:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:06:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:06:42
Doctor who?
Damn.
01:06:42
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:06:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But you know what? If that was, if a print was going on to that piece of paper that I loved so much and I wanted on the wall of my living room for the next 30 years, $13, man, that's a fucking, that's a walk in the park.
01:06:49
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah.
01:06:55
Jack Thomas
Exactly.
01:06:56
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:06:56
Jack Thomas
Exactly. Whatever, whatever.
01:06:57
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:06:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I,
01:06:57
Jack Thomas
I mean, like, you you would you would you not think it was totally just, like, batshit if, like, a famous, you know, a famous woodworking artist, or rather wood wood printing artist like Albrecht Durer,
01:07:11
Jack Thomas
spent all that time carving these beautiful like ingrain, you know, um ah wood engravings and then printed it on some like shitty piece of, you know, I don't know, raw paper pulp bullshit, right?
01:07:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:22
Jack Thomas
Like the reason that his, the reason that his work has lasted is because it was put on the most, you know, the most incredible paper he had available at the time.
01:07:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. all
Repairable Woodworking Techniques
01:07:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right. So both of y'all give the same answer. Use quality materials, right?
01:07:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah.
01:07:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the second the second access, aside from materials, is make it repairable. Now, Jack, you can't make prints necessarily repairable. I mean, they can be conserved, sure, maybe.
01:07:44
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:07:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Eric, you and i we can make things repairable.
01:07:50
Doctor who?
We can, we can.
01:07:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We can use hide glue, which is reversible, repairable. We can use finishes that are reversible, repairable, depending, you know?
01:07:59
Doctor who?
So Paul, how do you make things repairable?
01:08:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I use joinery that will stand the test of time. And how do I know that? Because it already has in pieces that I've been here for centuries. And I use cowhide glue and I use shellac, which is reversible and repairable. That's what I do.
01:08:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't do it on every single piece. It depends what the piece is. If the piece is just a quick, just for fun, and it's not meant to like pull at the heartstrings for the next century, i might use a PVA glue, which is polyvinyl acetate, which is some form of plastic, like a modern yellow glue.
01:08:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But if it's something someone's going to love, and I know they're going to be bonded to that item for their entire life, I will make it repairable because I know i want their children to have the opportunity to repair it, even though I won't be here.
01:08:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I do, I do, I feel like I did the right thing when I do that. Is that what you do?
01:08:56
Doctor who?
yeah Yes. um I have different feelings on things like PVA glues than you do. um But on ah like in principle, I agree with you.
01:09:08
Doctor who?
I try to like all of the pieces that I make for clients are built with proper joinery and by proper, I want to, I want to be specific about this for a lot of our audience.
01:09:19
Doctor who?
Like it doesn't mean only dovetails and like integrated mortise and tenants, a floating tendon has been around for millennia guys.
01:09:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no
01:09:29
Doctor who?
Okay. Pinned rabbits have been around for millennia and they are both are repairable. So just because they look like they were produced by a machine and not by a hand saw, it doesn't mean that they're less repairable, less, uh, sustainable.
01:09:43
Doctor who?
But, um, you know, as far as like things like PVA glues, um, I understand that they are a plastic and they are a newer technology and I, I have my thoughts on it, but I also like, we know that they last at least a hundred years, which is a good amount of time.
01:10:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, which is a good amount of time.
01:10:03
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:10:03
Doctor who?
And so the thing is like, you can, you absolutely can.
01:10:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you can repair it. You can repair it if you so you scrape off the old glue and put new glue on.
01:10:09
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:10:09
Doctor who?
Yeah, you can reverse it with heat.
01:10:10
Doctor who?
You can reverse Typebond 1 with water. So like it does have repairability. It's just different, and I don't think we've entered the age of needing to repair a large number of these pieces that have been made with PVA glue.
01:10:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:10:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, chair makers might disagree with you, but...
01:10:24
Doctor who?
There are things that... Sure, sure, sure.
01:10:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:10:29
Doctor who?
There are things that like adhesives that we have used that we know don't hold up. Like this is why we don't veneer with spray adhesives, right? This is why we don't use contact cement.
01:10:40
Doctor who?
This is why you're not using like the clear version of Elmer's glue on all of these pieces. Like there are things that we know don't last. So at some point, the question becomes how long is long enough?
01:10:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:10:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is a century good enough, right?
01:10:52
Doctor who?
if it last if it lasts a human lifetime, that feels like it's it's way more sustainable than the five to 10 years most people are holding onto a piece of furniture.
01:11:02
Jack Thomas
But it has to be able to withstand somebody putting their fat ass on it.
01:11:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair argument.
01:11:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I guarantee you, if it's my fat ass, it ain't going to last.
01:11:10
Doctor who?
That big old donk sitting on it you know?
01:11:11
Jack Thomas
either.
01:11:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay. So it's materials. It's how you make it. it's It's the adhesive. But in terms of the argument about repairability, maybe it's it's not solely on us as the maker, but maybe it's on the audience as well.
01:11:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Have you? Yeah.
01:11:28
Doctor who?
Yeah, carry your fucking weight, guys.
01:11:29
Jack Thomas
Right?
01:11:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Audience.
01:11:30
Jack Thomas
Jeez, guys.
01:11:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Audience. I'd like to ask you. I'm looking ah like appearing at the audience through the camera. Have you tried to repair the things that broke in your house?
01:11:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Have you tried to acquire the new skills to repair it? It's an interesting question. um I recently had my dryer break, my clothes dryer.
01:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It broke. It's from 1982. Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:58
Jack Thomas
wow That's older than I am.
01:11:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:11:59
Jack Thomas
Jesus Christ.
01:12:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I could tell because the paneling on it looked like some sort of car, like like the old like station wagon with the wood paneling.
01:12:07
Doctor who?
Nice.
01:12:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The paneling on the dryer.
01:12:07
Jack Thomas
Oh, cool.
01:12:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so my wife says to me, she's like, well, it's still it's still running, but it's not heating.
01:12:15
Doctor who?
Mm
01:12:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, I don't know shit about shit with dryers. But I pulled that bad boy out. I'm like, it's from 1982. It can't be that complicated. a Famous last words, right?
01:12:27
Doctor who?
hmm.
01:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I pulled that nasty thing out. I got covered with dust bunnies. It was so filthy under that dryer. It was was really bad. And I took the back panel off and all the back panel was...
01:12:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was like an air intake and a gigantic row of coils that turned red hot.
01:12:44
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
01:12:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the air would just, like there was a fan that just blew the hot air up.
01:12:49
Doctor who?
Yep.
01:12:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or but It sucked air through these red hot coils and just put it in the dryer.
01:12:54
Doctor who?
Yep.
01:12:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I saw like the coils were broken in one area. And I'm like, okay, seems okay.
01:13:02
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There must be, they must make these coils, right? And all I saw was two hot coils. two electrical wires that hooked up to the bottom, a red and a black.
01:13:11
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
01:13:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's like 220 for sure, right? I could tell by the plug. And so it's like two hot electrical wires to these coils. I'm like, okay, I'm going to buy some new coils. So I bought some new coils that kind of look like the existing coils.
01:13:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I like found a way like in the dust bunnies that they're all fucking dust bunnies all over my head. And I'm like sandwiched in this dirty ass part of the basement. It's like so uncomfortable and I hated every minute of it.
01:13:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I managed to get the new coils back in and I hook up these two dangerous looking wires. It's like Frankenstein's monster is going to like reconnect at the, at the neck bolts. Right. And I, and I hook this bad boy back up and totally worked.
01:13:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was like, son of a bitch.
01:13:49
Jack Thomas
Oh my God.
01:13:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It totally worked.
01:13:50
Jack Thomas
You are so brave.
01:13:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It like this dryer is what are we at?
01:13:56
Doctor who?
Unkillable.
01:13:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like 25 plus, let's say 15 is 40 years old, 45 years old. And all that broke in it was a damn heating element, like a tungsten heating element. And all I had to do was put new one in and took two wires up.
01:14:10
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
01:14:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that to me, that was a lesson to myself about don't be a weenie about trying to repair shit. If you think you can like take it apart, take a look, right?
01:14:19
Doctor who?
Well, so so that's a major caveat, right? So there are two things I want to say to that. Number one, a big component of it is you already have confidence in your ability to navigate the physical world, which a lot of people don't have right now.
01:14:35
Doctor who?
They can develop it. I don't think it takes that much to develop it, but they have to have the courage to to try things. And maybe, hey, maybe don't start with electrical and wiring in your home.
01:14:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don't want to choke your chicken before
01:14:46
Doctor who?
Like maybe that's not where you like really dive into the deep end. Maybe you start with like fucking building a shitty chicken coop that's going to fall down in a couple of weeks,
Developing Repair Skills and Confidence
01:14:55
Doctor who?
you know?
01:14:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
your
01:14:55
Jack Thomas
Or repairing your IKEA table.
01:14:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you don't want to choke your chicken before your time
01:14:57
Doctor who?
Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to choke your chicken before your dryer is fixed. Then who's going to fix the dryer? So, but, but the, the skillset, the diversity of skillset is really important.
01:15:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it is.
01:15:10
Doctor who?
Um, and people come by those in different ways. I came by it because shit would break in my house as a teenager and we couldn't afford to have somebody come repair them. So it was either i had to figure out how to fix the the switch or the outlet in the kitchen, or we didn't have lights in the kitchen, you know, like those were the options.
01:15:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah.
01:15:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:15:29
Doctor who?
So you figure it out.
01:15:30
Doctor who?
um and And a lot of people aren't taught to do that. And so they are intimidated by the thought of what if I get it wrong, the house could burn down. And that's totally fair. And this is the second thing I want to say is sometimes,
01:15:44
Doctor who?
it's okay to throw a thing out. And another dryer example is about a year ago, a little more than a year ago, my dryer shit the bed too. I was home, thankfully, and I was just doing laundry on a Sunday afternoon and I smelled this weird...
01:16:01
Doctor who?
like burning smell that I hadn't spent. It wasn't like, it wasn't food burning. It wasn't trash burning, something like that. And I realized quickly that it was my clothes in the dryer were burning.
01:16:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:16:13
Doctor who?
And I was like, what the fuck is happening? So I go down and I kill it and, you know, wait for everything to cool down and I pull it out and none of the clothes caught fire, but they got so hot that all of them singed. And so you got like the denim in there, the cotton in there, et cetera, et cetera. And they all singed.
01:16:28
Doctor who?
I was like, what the fuck happened? And through a series, because, you know, again, I'm going to take shit apart and figure out what went wrong through a series of investigations. And I think this dryer was probably from the early ninety s the regulator failed.
01:16:44
Doctor who?
So i have a gas, yeah, I have ah i have a gas dryer.
01:16:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The temperature regulator.
01:16:46
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
01:16:48
Doctor who?
And so you have a flame in there and then you have a temperature regulator. And when it gets hot enough, the regulator closes the glass flame ah or the gas flame off. And then it waits for it to cool down to a certain thing. And then it kicks back on and the regulator had failed. So it was just getting cooked.
01:17:01
Doctor who?
The drum was getting cooked the entire fucking time. And it almost lit the clothes on fire. Had I not been home, my house could have burned down.
01:17:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
01:17:08
Doctor who?
So I was like, what do I do? I looked online at new dryers and they were like fucking expensive. And I found a new regulator and I bought that for $15 and I repaired it.
01:17:19
Doctor who?
And I worked with that dryer for another like three or four months until it got to a point where it was like,
01:17:28
Doctor who?
if something were to happen, if that regulator were to go wrong, if I, I fixed it because it's a thing of like,
01:17:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You fixed it and then you gave up on it?
01:17:39
Doctor who?
Is it it's it if it was another way around, if it was like the regulator failed and so the flame automatically went off, it would have been non issue. But if I if I turn the dryer on and then I go to the grocery store and I come back an hour later and my house is burnt down, maybe it's a better maybe it's more sustainable to get rid of the fucking dryer instead of the entire goddamn house.
01:17:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
01:18:01
Jack Thomas
That's a great point. there There's a local handyman service here in our town or maybe just in the county somewhere.
01:18:02
Doctor who?
You know?
01:18:08
Jack Thomas
Their motto is, we repair what your husband fixed.
01:18:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:18:15
Jack Thomas
And I fucking love that so much.
01:18:16
Doctor who?
That's strong.
01:18:17
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah.
01:18:17
Doctor who?
That's strong.
01:18:18
Jack Thomas
And i and i I have to agree that like at some point, I mean, like you have to have the skill set to do this, but you also have to have the cu the curiosity to do it, right?
01:18:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:18:26
Doctor who?
Yeah.
01:18:27
Jack Thomas
And you can't be afraid to be bad at something, which I feel like is like a huge thing in our culture right now.
01:18:30
Doctor who?
Mm hmm.
01:18:31
Jack Thomas
I i blame social media in part.
01:18:33
Doctor who?
Sure.
01:18:34
Jack Thomas
um like Thank goodness for for folks like y'all and for you know YouTube in general for teaching us how to repair things that you know that repairmen just don't even exist for anymore. Like that, that handyman, he's like one of one.
01:18:47
Jack Thomas
It's so frigging hard to find somebody who can repair anything. We have a vacuum that broke. That vacuum is going to go to the landfill. Like we cannot figure out how to fix it despite trying and there's no person to repair it now.
01:18:59
Jack Thomas
i ah I have this friend, we keep joking about starting a platform called Only Grands. That's just all the skills that your grandma knew that you don't know anymore.
01:19:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:19:10
Jack Thomas
And it's just a bunch of old ladies teaching you how to do these things.
01:19:11
Doctor who?
Mm-hmm.
01:19:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you know, Jack, that's who taught me how to replace, how to fix things is the old guy across the street who told me woodworking, how he taught me how to repair stuff.
01:19:21
Jack Thomas
Awesome.
01:19:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he showed me it's okay to like, give it a try.
01:19:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And right. Like. Yeah.
01:19:28
Doctor who?
Dude, there's there's a there's a guy with a YouTube channel.
01:19:31
Doctor who?
I can't remember his name off the top of my head, but it's that's the YouTube channel is he is it's something like ah like ask your dad or something. So like he basically yeah, it's like a dude who's just like I didn't have a dad ah like for anybody who didn't have a dad.
01:19:41
Jack Thomas
I love that guy.
01:19:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:19:43
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:19:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:19:49
Doctor who?
Here's how you do shit that your dad should have taught you to do.
01:19:51
Jack Thomas
I love that.
01:19:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the old generation that grew up in the forties and fifties, this was part of their life was fixing shit, learning how to fix shit.
01:19:51
Doctor who?
It's like fucking great.
01:20:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was part of the fabric of everyday life, whether they learned it from their father or a neighbor. But today, That's not part of our everyday life anymore. I learned it from Hal.
01:20:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He gave me a gift. He was 80. I was 33. We became like best friends. And he taught me all this shit and showed me like he did demystified all of it. And like, what a gift. And so when my little 28 year old, like I'm 50, I'm like twice their age.
01:20:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I could be their dad for God's sake. um they They, you know, they move into their new house and they're like, ah Paul, this deck is rotting. You know what? I helped them buy the e-pay.
01:20:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I helped, I'm going to help them reinstall the deck.
01:20:41
Doctor who?
I don't
01:20:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going to show them how to do it because that's just me paying for it. This isn't like a feel good session or anything, but it's like, I feel like I should pay forward what Hal taught me.
01:20:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then like, here's the next generation, their early twenties or late twenties, and they don't know how to do shit. They're totally, they're bright as can be. They're super smart. Yeah. but they don't know how, when did they have the chance to learn this shit? They were in college and they just started jobs and they bought their first house and they had a baby and here we are.
01:21:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, when do we have a chance to learn this shit anymore?
01:21:14
Doctor who?
Well, and we we've talked about this in previous episodes, but like that's what we're
Cultural Norms of Disposal and Personal Agency
01:21:20
Doctor who?
taught.
01:21:20
Doctor who?
If you want to be successful, you don't worry about fixing shit. There are people who are dumber than you who can fix it. you know like you Your job is to make money so that you can pay people to do shit for you.
01:21:31
Jack Thomas
That's so unfulfilling.
01:21:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
struggle with that.
01:21:33
Jack Thomas
That sucks. Like there's, there's no, there's no personal agency in that.
01:21:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
01:21:37
Doctor who?
That's the culture we live in
01:21:38
Jack Thomas
No, it is dog dispose, dispose and pay somebody else to repair.
01:21:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, Jack.
01:21:38
Doctor who?
That's...
01:21:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack.
01:21:41
Jack Thomas
But yeah.
01:21:41
Doctor who?
Yeah. Yeah.
01:21:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's no personal agency in that.
01:21:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that. There is not.
01:21:44
Jack Thomas
There's no personal agency.
01:21:45
Jack Thomas
I just, ah so as I've been like working outside around the homestead, I've been listening to audio books and I just finished this audio book series.
01:21:51
Doctor who?
Sure,
01:21:53
Jack Thomas
I need to preface this by saying the author, James Howard Kunstler is apparently kind of a dick. I'm told that he's like not a very nice guy.
01:22:00
Doctor who?
sure.
01:22:02
Jack Thomas
And you know what, Picasso was also a dick and we still talk about cubism.
01:22:05
Doctor who?
chair
01:22:05
Jack Thomas
So like, let's, you know, let's put it, we'll put a, we'll put a pin in that.
01:22:06
Doctor who?
chair
01:22:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack. Jack.
01:22:09
Jack Thomas
That's a whole other conversation for another time.
01:22:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
jack
01:22:12
Jack Thomas
But ah yeah, yeah. Well, that's that's definitely a whole other episode. so um But this series is called World Made by Hand.
Repairing Ourselves and Society
01:22:21
Jack Thomas
And it's like it's based on um peak oil and like the collapse of modern society because oil is no longer available. Electricity is no longer available. You can't run the factories that we built up to build all of these cheap things.
01:22:36
Jack Thomas
Some of it is very like romanticized, you know, for for sure. But one of the things that stuck out to me the most in that series was that when we repair things, physical things, we're more able to repair ourselves as people.
01:22:52
Jack Thomas
We're more able to repair our society and we're more willing to invest in things that last.
01:22:53
Doctor who?
me
01:22:58
Jack Thomas
And we're willing to take care of those things, both physical things and metaphorical things.
01:23:04
Doctor who?
That's such a sexy statement.
01:23:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, Jack, I have a boner from that.
01:23:08
Doctor who?
i
01:23:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, I feel like you just mic.
01:23:09
Jack Thomas
Well, don't, don't choke the chicken on me here.
01:23:11
Doctor who?
Don't choke the chicken, man.
01:23:11
Jack Thomas
She is.
01:23:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like you'd mic dropped with that. Oh my God, that was so good.
01:23:17
Jack Thomas
I mean, that's a whole that's a whole other episode. But like all all that to say, yes, ah you know James Howard Kunstler is probably dick. I haven't looked into why. So you know disclaimer there. But if you have Audible or whatever your audiobook platform is, the World Made by Hand series, there are four books in it.
01:23:33
Jack Thomas
um there There is a lot of graphic violence in there. Because as you might imagine, in a post-apocalyptic society, people are fighting over all kinds of shit because of scarcity. But when there's nothing left to buy...
01:23:47
Jack Thomas
You have to make everything or fix everything. And that becomes true for physical things and for metaphysical things.
01:23:58
Doctor who?
Goddamn.
01:23:58
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:23:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, Eric, if that were to happen, would you be, would you be all right? Or would you be screwed?
01:24:03
Doctor who?
Are we going into the dystopian future, huh?
01:24:05
Jack Thomas
Oh.
01:24:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just, just, just a quick, just a quick, give quick flavor.
01:24:07
Doctor who?
Would I be all right? Um, I feel like that's, I would have to have a layered answer there. Cause on the one hand, I know a lot, obviously I don't know everything.
01:24:18
Doctor who?
Um, the, the reality is i live in a city. Um, I, my, the entire size of the property I own is the size of my house and the nine foot patio behind it.
01:24:31
Doctor who?
Um,
01:24:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:24:32
Jack Thomas
Well, Doug, Paul and I get you covered on that. You know you can always come.
01:24:34
Doctor who?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:24:34
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:24:35
Doctor who?
Well, and so that's the other thing, right, is I think a big part of whether or not somebody... We're like just fully in dystopian Futurama right now. ah
01:24:43
Jack Thomas
I wonder why.
01:24:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:24:44
Doctor who?
I think a large part of how somebody survives that is the human connections that they make and how like how you build that web, you know?
01:24:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
01:24:53
Jack Thomas
And so you you have to love you have to love these people and be willing to repair fissures that happen in that relationship.
01:24:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
01:25:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:25:00
Jack Thomas
I think it's the same thing for physical stuff.
01:25:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Okay. Okay. After show it is. We're going to talk about the dystopian future in the after show. That's what it is.
01:25:09
Doctor who?
All right. Love it. Love it.
01:25:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah How do you summarize that show? Holy shit.
01:25:15
Doctor who?
um Hey, ah go make a thing and don't choke the chicken before you finish it. It's been great, friends.
01:25:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:25:23
Doctor who?
ah Great. Thanks for joining us on another episode.
01:25:26
Jack Thomas
Bye.
01:25:27
Doctor who?
Go check out the Patreon if you want to hear about our dystopian novel that we're writing. And see you guys in the next one.
01:25:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.
01:25:36
Doctor who?
Bye!