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Episode 48 - Barstool Confessions #4: Heartbreak, Loss, & Sensitivity
1.1k Plays1 day ago
What happens when two friends sit down and discuss life’s biggest questions? In this episode, Erik wrestles with a very difficult personal challenge and wonders how much of it to divulge publicly, while Paul is processing the passing of one of his best friends. In full transparency, this is a tough episode.
Join us for an honest, unscripted conversation that just might shift how you see the world—and yourself.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Host Backgrounds
00:00:16
Speaker
Bring it. Bring it. Good evening. Good evening, friends. Salutations and finest greetings. Welcome to another episode Woodworking is Bullshit.
00:00:30
Speaker
I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copper Pig Woodworking, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And in the chair is my boy, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker. and content creator.
Weekly Reflections and Podcast Theme
00:00:41
Speaker
Goddamn right. What's up, cowboy? How you doing? ah I think we've both had a few we both had a pretty good week, Eric. It's been a week. It's been a week.
00:00:53
Speaker
It's been a week. And that's why we're doing this. This was an impromptu session Barstool Confessions. Well, is this is this our first emergency pod? I think this is our first emergency. Yeah, where we're like, ah you want to talk about this? I mean, we needed to talk about it, I think.
00:01:15
Speaker
So um this is our fourth installment of Barstool Confessions, which is a particular format that we stumbled upon quite organically, where Eric and i channel...
00:01:31
Speaker
The old Eric and I. The old Eric and I. As if we're just sitting at the bar together at the corner of a bar enjoying a whiskey, which we are.
Eric's Cabinet and Personal Growth
00:01:41
Speaker
Goddamn right.
00:01:42
Speaker
And just talking about... life and philosophy. And Eric is hit me up with with ah hit me up with a banger of a topic for this one. So Eric, you you I don't exactly know what you're going to say.
00:01:58
Speaker
and I have a topic that you have no idea what I'm going to say. And it's true they're both ah eight and nine on a 10 point scale of heaviness. So why don't you lead with the nine?
00:02:09
Speaker
All right. Well, I've been I've been doing lighter weight, higher rep lately. So the the heaviness is going to be going to build up the lactic acid, you know? um OK, so as you know, buddy, um I spent the last couple of months making a cabinet.
00:02:30
Speaker
um And I felt that I needed to create the space to make that cabinet um because the relationship that I was in ended very abruptly.
00:02:45
Speaker
ah It was it was not a thing I saw coming. It was a thing that was a shock to me, to you, to to all of my other closest friends that I talked to about it. And and um triggered a lot of
00:03:05
Speaker
previous insecurities in me that I needed to, to work through and create space for. So I started making this cabinet as a reflection, um, on the relationship in part, um, but also on myself, on the relationships that the, the platonic relationships, the friendship relationships I've developed over the years, uh,
00:03:33
Speaker
and and that support system that I've developed. It's it's it's a reflection on all of those things. But there are so many details of it that are intricately tied to the relationship that I was in and the ending of that relationship, especially because ah shortly before it ended, it became a public relationship, which was like that was that was a difficult thing to process.
00:04:01
Speaker
Yeah. So The question that I have that I've been sitting with that I've been wondering about over the last few weeks is i did record the build.
00:04:15
Speaker
I didn't speak to camera at all. And so I've got this massive collection of footage because it's it's an intricate piece. It shops on veneers, ah solid lumber core. I designed and fabricated the spring-loaded hardware mechanism to to revolve around. the The whole concept revolves around it. like It's a major part of this cabinet.
00:04:42
Speaker
um And I'm unsure how to tell the story. of this cabinet in the video that will come because the videos ultimately are the thing that pay the bills, especially since I'm not going to sell this cabinet.
00:04:58
Speaker
So as I am, i don't want to use the word forced. um But because my job is to make videos about the objects that I make. And this object is so emotionally loaded.
00:05:18
Speaker
How exposed is too exposed when you're talking about these types of things and in front of a public audience or in front of the internet or in front of whomever it is?
00:05:31
Speaker
Boy. Yeah. How exposed is too exposed when you make an object that embodies
00:05:44
Speaker
parts of how you feel. And then you're gonna make a 40 minute long video about that object. And what do you say?
00:05:58
Speaker
Well, ah sorry, my scientist brain, as it does, it goes straight to three distinct possibilities. Like I tend to, I tend to go right to limit cases.
00:06:09
Speaker
Okay. So on the, on the one limit case, you don't say a word.
Personal Storytelling and Art
00:06:14
Speaker
It's a silent video. And you know, the, the, the viewer takes from it what they will.
00:06:24
Speaker
Knowing, knowing something of the backstory, like maybe maybe just a, just a statement upfront, you know, this cabinet is, is me processing the end ah of a significant relationship.
00:06:36
Speaker
And rather than to talk through the video and explain everything, I just present it, take from it what you will. That's one option. The other extreme.
00:06:51
Speaker
is full disclosure.
00:06:56
Speaker
Every detail. I did this because this happened and it reminded me of this and this is how I processed it. And this detail embodies this idea. and This is how I feel and this is how I'm going to find closure.
00:07:09
Speaker
Like full full explanation. every Every gory detail.
00:07:17
Speaker
And then there's a a series of solutions between those. which is in essence how we're conducting this podcast, which is some details, but not all the details.
00:07:31
Speaker
Enough that you're comfortable saying it publicly and it gives some illumination, but it doesn't go into a lot of personal detail. And that's, that that middle solution has a
00:07:45
Speaker
20%, 30% in either direction, right? Like you can edge it towards it. You can edge it away. And so i don't know what, how, that's how my brain works in terms of mapping out a frame, like a framework of possible solutions, the limit, the two limit cases and something in between.
00:08:03
Speaker
What's your gut tell you? Um, I have visceral gut reactions to to all three of those. Oh, no. Oh, no.
00:08:16
Speaker
So this is this is the hard part of it, right? So yeah um I think we've talked about a little bit all three of those options. um Not saying anything is the most comfortable version of it for me.
00:08:30
Speaker
And here's why. ah The object is the object. Once the object is done, like I belong to the the school of philosophy that like once the piece of artwork is done, it no longer belongs to the artist, it belongs to the public.
00:08:43
Speaker
Right. The video in this case is the work. The object will always belong to me. It's there. It is. You know, I have a piece about my ex-wife. I have a piece about the first girl.
00:08:56
Speaker
You didn't know that? I didn't know you had a piece about your ex-wife. Yeah. I have a piece about the first girl I fell in love with after my divorce. Uh, and you know, now it's, it's, well, at this point it's a fucking pattern. I feel like Eric, what when when are you going to have a piece about your feelings about me?
00:09:15
Speaker
I want to make the wall. I want to make the wall of the wall of shame. Yeah, no it's not shame, but I want to make the wall of pieces. We never talked about the Atlas table being about my ex-wife.
00:09:27
Speaker
No, that's, that's about the end of my marriage. Yeah. You didn't tell me that. Oh, buddy. Oh, we'll take that off air. But that's the thing. Yeah. I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:09:38
Speaker
So it's it's a I think that is a manifestation of. um Well, at that point in time, I think it was me not being able to express thoughts and feelings in the human experience well and not being comfortable articulating those things.
00:09:58
Speaker
So they came out ah through objects because it's easier to say things without words. you know like is it' Anybody who has had a ah ah father who is, we'll say, light on words you know knows that sometimes ah you can you can get a look and you know exactly what he's trying to tell you without you know any of those words. And I think that's kind of where that stems from.
00:10:25
Speaker
um So if that's the case, Eric, let's just do the thought experiment. You do a silent video with just a small preamble.
00:10:36
Speaker
um You said that's the most comfortable. ah Do you have any reservations about that? I have a lot of reservations about it because it feels... um
00:10:48
Speaker
I'm not disingenuous, maybe half-hearted. Like it's, it's not half-hearted. That's not half-hearted, dude. It's, it's, there's,
00:11:00
Speaker
there's so many things. Okay. So let's, let's, Let's put a lot of the details of the object on the table, right? Um, you know, a lot of these details. It reminds me a lot of my skull cabinet, if I'm being honest, not interesting in essence, like the drawer assembly, like it's basically the same form factor. The drawers. I was watching yeah I was watching you fit drawers. I'm like, dude, it's just like my skull cabinet, yeah yeah yeah such a similar object at at the end of the day. It's nothing more than a simple cabinet.
00:11:29
Speaker
Right. It's like a diminutive valuables cabinet. It is in that. Well, that's exactly what is in there. Right. So so let's talk about the the concept of the cabinet for a moment, um because I think that feeds into the way that it was ah conceptualized and and and actually built. Yeah.
00:11:52
Speaker
So the concept of the cabinet is at the end of any relationship, right? And it could be romantic. It could be ah parental. Like if a parent dies, it could be um at the end of a familial relationship or a platonic relationship of like somebody moves away.
00:12:10
Speaker
You have all of this, what I've been calling ah the detritus of a relationship. ah like Like all of these objects that are just around at the end of a relationship.
00:12:20
Speaker
Yeah. And, um, you might not be ready to get rid of them, but you also know they need to go away for a period of time, you know? And, and, um,
00:12:35
Speaker
Most people have a a basement or an attic to like put things in a shoe box and put it up and away. ah Number one, I don't have an attic because I live in a Philly row home.
00:12:46
Speaker
um But also, i again, I needed to create that space to to sit with what was happening. And so the concept of the cabinet is really about that period of time that.
00:13:00
Speaker
where you need a place to put these objects that exist that um you're not ready to discard yet. But also they need to be out of your line of sight on like on your daily your day to day. You know, they need to be locked away somewhere so that it's it's it's a it's a transition cabinet for lack of a better way to phrase it.
00:13:21
Speaker
know, interesting. Interesting. And so With that concept in mind, um I had this slab that I had purchased towards the beginning of that relationship.
00:13:35
Speaker
And um it was it was an effective like it was it was a roll of the dice. In effect, it was a gamble of like, if this works out, I will have this to make as a gift ah for my partner if it ends up going the distance.
00:13:52
Speaker
Um, and so once it ended, it was, ah very quickly. it was like, ah oh, well, what am I going to do with that slab? Okay. Well, something needs like, it needs to be turned into, it can't just sit there, you know, something needs to be ah made from it.
00:14:08
Speaker
It's part of the detritus. It's part of the detritus for sure. for sure. yeah. um And so the entire cabinet outside of the poplar core of the main ah components is, is made from that slab.
00:14:23
Speaker
ah And then the lock ah that I ah used for that cabinet was engraved by Jenny. um And ah during the pandemic and she sent it to me and she was like, one day you'll figure out what to do with it.
00:14:38
Speaker
And so I texted her when I had that idea. i think it was actually like the day maybe I left her house this summer or the day after. and I was like, here's what I'm going to do with it. Are you OK with that? And she was like, absolutely. Like, do what you got to do.
00:14:52
Speaker
um So it was it was both like it's this is the thing is like there's so many layers to tease out. Like it's it's the slab that I bought that needed to go away. It's the end of the relationship. It's also like using the lock from Jenny.
00:15:07
Speaker
is a nod to the fact that like every single day, uh, after that happened, Jenny called Larissa was there. You called like I, these, these friends that were checking in and making sure everything was okay.
00:15:25
Speaker
And I, I felt loved and I felt supported. um And so that lock is a nod to all of those relationships.
00:15:35
Speaker
And so the question is like, wow. So, so at the end of the day, it's a fucking box with some drawers in it. Yeah. But there's so much symbolism each part of that. Right. And so, so how much of that story is able to be told on the internet in a way that adds to the story and doesn't become self-indulgent? Like there's. Okay.
00:15:57
Speaker
There's so doing well, self indulgent. Well, well, but so doing the silent video is like the stoic approach, right? It is. It's like this exists. Take from it what you will. I'm not going to tell you, but if you know, you know, kind of thing.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Telling everything. in this podcast feels it's always felt different maybe because it's just you and me talking and I don't actually know who listens to the fucking podcast. So like the ramifications aren't direct to me.
00:16:28
Speaker
Whoever's listening. Well, like in fairness, Hey guys, if you didn't know this until now, ah Paul is the one to respond to all of the comments and DMS and everything. Cause he's, he's a sweet, sweet boy.
00:16:39
Speaker
um sweet boy So like, it feels somehow safer to talk about these things on the podcast than it does ah on the YouTube channel. Right.
00:16:52
Speaker
um But, but that also is like, the emo band approach and what i don't want to happen is in the same way that we kind of now laugh at the emo bands of the early aughts where we're like oh all right guys that was a little heavy-handed maybe grow the fuck up you know like that's i don't want to put that out into the world either yeah so it's a weird it sounds like you're leaning to something in between
00:17:23
Speaker
Yeah. And I don't know. I don't know. I genuinely. So it is guys. Currently it is Tuesday. This video will come out on Saturday and I still don't know how I'm going to approach telling this story.
00:17:34
Speaker
Well, just to give an as an example from what you were just saying, I feel as though the lock mechanism on the front. is obviously symbolic, like a lock. Like when do you put a lock a padlock
Emotional Impact of Art and Relationships
00:17:49
Speaker
on the front of a cabinet, right? So obviously there's symbolism there.
00:17:53
Speaker
But the story that you added about Jenny being one of the people who cared, you know, ah checked in on you the most and and gave you this just ah for some future possibility, like you'll know what to do with it.
00:18:10
Speaker
And it's like, it came true. That moment came and you knew what to do with it. And that lock became almost like symbolic of the friends that checked in on you.
00:18:24
Speaker
a lot. That's like such that is such an important part of that story. Like when I look at that lock, I'll never see ah that lock the same again. So from that point of view, the silent stoic approach leaves almost too much on the table.
00:18:41
Speaker
Hmm. And this is so, so this is again, the trouble of like, I agree with you and, and telling you all of the details, telling Larissa, all of the details, telling Justin, all of the details, Sean came over after maker camp.
00:18:59
Speaker
um And we were hanging out for a couple of days. And that was when I brought the cabinet home and and Sean's a sweet, sweet boy. I love pieces. We talked at length about the cabinet and, and I told him all the things, but like,
00:19:13
Speaker
Those are friendships versus um engaging with the public. Yeah. You know? So, so okay. So if you have a piece, first of all, do you have any pieces that are like um reflective of a moment?
00:19:33
Speaker
You know, not necessarily the end of a relationship, but just like any moment. not not a relationship like not a yeah I look like I'm very different than you.
00:19:45
Speaker
Like when I'm in turmoil inside, i don't do well in the shop. Yeah. ah So, so no, I don't have any turmoil pieces that embody the turmoil, but I do. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's pieces that are, but have, but were definitely a moment in retrospect that I was going through a transitional period and who I was as an artist and they embody that moment to me when I look at them, I see that moment.
00:20:12
Speaker
So, you so yes, I get what you're saying. Um,
00:20:18
Speaker
Eric, the thought I had about how much detail to tell the general public versus to leave out information I often think based on just my experience and giving presentations and pharma and like just storytelling that three is a good number.
00:20:36
Speaker
Three is a magic number. Like one's not enough. Two, you're still hungry. Three is like, it just always feels right. Four is often too many for some reason.
00:20:48
Speaker
So what if, what if just using that principle, you said, yeah, I'm going to highlight three parts of this cabinet that I think are particularly significant.
00:21:01
Speaker
And just just let that be the guide. The lock. what What would be the three things that are most significant? that's what you really, it's a good metric. I'm not pushing back on that. And I'm genuinely trying to think of of what the three are.
00:21:18
Speaker
Obviously the lock is one. I, I could, I guess, please just, could I throw one out that the piece of wood Is one. You bought that slab thinking that it was going to manifest into one destiny it manifested into an entirely opposite and different destiny. Yeah. No. Yeah. Can't get farther apart than what it is. Sorry. I'm not laughing. I'm not laughing.
00:21:46
Speaker
It's just like, Oh, no, we actively are laughing. It's fine. No, I don't. Fuck. Gee whiz. You know? um i mean, That.
00:21:57
Speaker
All right, go ahead. What else? So, I mean, those are the first, the first two that definitely jumped into my brain, but the, the, as soon as the question of the slab comes up, then it becomes like a, how do you, how do you dance that dance?
00:22:16
Speaker
Cause so either like, so the slab is the first part of the video, right? Chopping up the slab into veneers and veneering the main part of the cabinet. That's the first thing that happens in the video. So either we acknowledge that six months into this relationship, I bought this slab because I was like, I might marry this girl.
00:22:36
Speaker
Wow. And then turns out, oops, JK, all berries.
00:22:44
Speaker
ah Wait, what does that mean, all berries? Oops, all berries? You don't know that? What that mean? Cap'n Crunch? Oh, no. that's like but That's the 10 years or whatever between us right there. You've never had Captain Crunch Oops All Berries?
00:22:59
Speaker
No. so you were You were like in grad school when I was fucking eight years old, chowing down on fucking... Bitch, don't sleep on Captain Crunch Peanut Butter Crunch. That is like the best cereal out there.
00:23:11
Speaker
Peanut butter crunch goes hard. It will, and I cannot state this strong enough, it will ravage your mouth. You will not, you will bleed for days, the roof of your mouth. or mouth Yes, is impossible to sustain. It is eviscerated. However, delicious.
00:23:28
Speaker
Oops, all berries is just Cap'n Crunch, but it was just oops, all berries. Oh, what a mistake.
00:23:36
Speaker
Okay. So anyway, um so ive I bought that slab. And so to acknowledge that that is the reason I'm making this piece out of the slab, then immediately invites the question of like, A, what happened to the relationship? And like, how far down that rabbit hole do you want to go you don't. It doesn't know necessarily invite that question. No. I mean, look, as you said here, it didn't work out.
00:24:02
Speaker
ended abruptly enough that this is enough i mean like look it is what it is okay that's fine i if if i if if i watched a youtube video i would accept like there's a modicum of privacy you don't want to put anyone on blast you don't want to like spill you know dirty laundry no no one wants everyone understands that so i i don't think you have so i don't think invite i guess i guess that's i guess that's getting right there i think is getting at the core of the question of like how exposed is to expose. Cause on the one hand, i I completely agree with you. Like you could say i was in a relationship.
00:24:40
Speaker
This is why I bought the slab that relationship ended. And so I am making this piece out of that slab in order to whatever, just clear space to process the end of that relationship. Full stop.
00:24:56
Speaker
Can I ask you a question about that? When you say, i guess I'm a little curious about what it's like to be
00:25:06
Speaker
in inner turmoil and make a peace. And you you keep using this phrase to clear space. I understand what that means. Like if you have items laying around your house and you want to put them in the cabinets, so you don't have to look at them anymore. Like I get that. If that's clearing space, if that's what you mean, I get it.
00:25:24
Speaker
But it seems to me. that through you making this piece, it's some sort of catharsis or cleansing or, or gives you processing time or yep yeah what, what is, what is going on with that? Like, I don't get that part. Can you explain that part to me?
00:25:43
Speaker
I think that's a, that's a damn fine question. And that's exactly what's happening. You hit the nail on the head, but I don't know. I've never tried to articulate what's happening in those moments.
00:25:56
Speaker
I think, think maybe part of it is knowing like in the immediate aftermath, um, my reflex is to and, and, and maybe this is universal reflex, but, but my reflex is to, um, uh, avoid,
00:26:18
Speaker
You know, like it's, it's, um, distraction. It is, it's whatever is happening. Pour me another whiskey, bring over another friend. Let's fucking hang out till 3am.
00:26:31
Speaker
Yeah. Anything so you're not alone with your thoughts. Right, right, right, right. And, uh, as we've talked about many a time on this podcast in, in good times and in bad, um,
00:26:43
Speaker
I don't do well when I'm alone with my thoughts and, and not able to expel
Art and Emotional Expression
00:26:50
Speaker
them. And so often how I expel them is, uh, or whatever that anxious energy is, is just walking, just moving around the streets of Philly, getting it out, thinking about things, processing life.
00:27:04
Speaker
And i think when these moments occur, um, Ultimately, what I'm doing is creating rhythm rhythm of um
00:27:22
Speaker
meditation almost like it it's, ah it's, it's a way, it's a way of, of yeah both expelling these things, but also creating a dedicated time to ah confronting the discomfort instead of running away from it.
00:27:37
Speaker
And having something to do with your hands while. yeah Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Having a focused outcome so that like, and, and I noticed this even during the making of this piece is like,
00:27:50
Speaker
when I started the piece, it was it was borderline mania. Like it is just like, I don't know where I'm going, but I'm going that way because that way is not right here, right? Like it is just move forward.
00:28:01
Speaker
And then by the time the piece was done, ah Larissa and I were talking about it one day and I was like, I feel like I i got the thing out. And that doesn't mean that it's over. That doesn't mean that the processing is over. Yeah, but the mania is gone. But yes, like it is, it's it's been expelled.
00:28:20
Speaker
I see.
00:28:22
Speaker
i see Yeah, I don't i don't know. and and again, how do you articulate that or do you articulate that to a public space?
00:28:35
Speaker
I feel like for the YouTube video, i ah maybe maybe something like this, Eric, but the more I listen to what you're saying and think about how I know you personally and think about my own experience together, all swirl all that together into a ah sandwich,
00:28:51
Speaker
um I guess I hear something that might be appropriate with a preamble to set the stage for what people are about to see, to give them an insight into some of the story, three things-ish.
00:29:06
Speaker
That way they understand some of the significance, some of the depth that will add to their appreciation for what they're watching. And then maybe a few closing thoughts, which is like,
00:29:21
Speaker
What you kind of just said is a closing thought. It's like, I went into this because I had all of this emotional pain and what we'll call energy.
00:29:36
Speaker
And I didn't know what to do with it. So I poured it into this cabinet. And by the time I was finished, I noticed that the the pressure inside me had largely resided. It doesn't mean that the pain's gone, but at least that, you know it's some sort of some sort of conclusion. Like if you have a preamble and three three parts of the cabinet and a conclusion, know, I feel like that that's helpful.
00:30:03
Speaker
it It even goes beyond your own story. I think many people will be thinking about their own So so this is a thing i think about often.
00:30:14
Speaker
um Adam Duritz, who's the lead singer songwriter for Counting Crows, I listened to an interview with him one time um and he said is a paraphrase, but he said basically the universal is in the specific.
00:30:32
Speaker
So like the more specific you get about your experience and in his case, writing a song, the more people can directly relate to it. And I think that's true, but there's also like a,
00:30:47
Speaker
That's asking a lot of the audience. And we ask a lot of our audience on that show, which is again, like why I'm comfortable having this conversation with you in front of ah this audience, but like putting that out to ah YouTube, that's a different audience. What are they there for?
00:31:07
Speaker
And so if I'm going to tell a story, if I'm going to, if it's going to be a how to video, that's one thing. I'm not going to do a how to video. If I'm going to tell a story about the object, how do I tell that story in a way that doesn't feel um overexposed? Like in in a way that in, in two years, I can look back on that video and I'm not embarrassed about it.
00:31:30
Speaker
Well, then keep it, play it tight. I think, i think what you'd be embarrassed about is playing it too loose. Right. I agree. So, so if anything, play it tighter than you might otherwise think. Yeah. Yeah.
00:31:47
Speaker
Yeah. look Playing it tight will never age poorly. Playing it loose may. It just, I think. I agree. what is What is the third? So if I if i use the rule of three that you said before. yeah We've got the slab. We've got the lock.
00:32:02
Speaker
The wood. ah Something about the drawer. Is there anything about the drawers or? again Are we going to talk about the fact that they're sized for specific objects from the relationship, including the engagement ring? no, we're going to leave that one on the table?
00:32:18
Speaker
you see You see how far we can go with it. and it becomes It becomes uncomfortable, right? again I'm not laughing, but yes, that's number three, Eric.
00:32:30
Speaker
Without a doubt. it's I think that's good. i look Look, that's enough. any Any more than that, and it gets it gets emotionally overwhelming. And it gets, it may, it may not age well. It may seem like, or he's going through some, mean, look, we know you're going, well, it's a, there's, it also, at some point it also feels like mildly pathetic.
00:32:51
Speaker
You know what I mean? Yes. I and know know. I know. I know. Yeah. So I think three is the magic number personally. And I think those three you've outlined tonight are perfect. Honestly. Oh, all right. Well, I guess we'll find out on Saturday if I agree with you or not.
00:33:05
Speaker
Yeah. Watch him go full silence. It's just stoic, baby. Let's ride.
00:33:17
Speaker
All right, buddy. ah says This is such a light and ah airy episode. it's It's so good. What do you got for us?
00:33:29
Speaker
Well, can I add? ah I'm going to add something before I i come up with my question. Please. That um one of my best friends in the world died yesterday.
00:33:40
Speaker
Jesus fucking Christ. Are you serious? I'm totally serious. I we're on air, so I don't want to ask you like who and all of the details. i Well, I know you didn't tell me about this. Yeah, I haven't had a chance. yeah um When I was 18.
00:33:57
Speaker
I became friends with the band director. um i was friends with his daughter. as She was in band with me. I became friends with him. His name's Jack. And just from knowing his daughters in band, met him and it's clear we had a love of music in common, like a deep, deep love of music. And, um,
00:34:18
Speaker
I went to prom, not with his daughter, but like his daughter was with some, a friend of mine and I was with someone else. But as I went to his house, ah prom and and I saw all his instruments there and it just, there was just a vibe between the, and it spanned generations. I was 18 and he was what? 30 years older, 37 years older.
00:34:39
Speaker
Yeah. 37 years older. He was in his fifties. And, And um you might think that that's weird, right? Like my parents were certainly concerned. They're like, what? Like you're friends with like a 50-year-old man? Like what the fuck?
00:34:54
Speaker
And I
Friendship, Loss, and Empathy
00:34:56
Speaker
know, on on but I've never been one to follow convention. I just followed my, whatever I thought was right. Like ah Jack and I became instant friends. I don't know how it happened. I don't know why it happened. It's kind of like Hal who taught me woodworking across the street.
00:35:11
Speaker
was 33. He was 80. you know ah when i met pooch he i was 18 he was 55 or whatever like i i can't explain it it just i don't know i don't know if any of you out there have friends that span generations but it just happens you know i'm sure there's someone who you met who's old anyway hey you youre you got to be what 20 30 years older than me fuck off So, um yeah, Jack and I were friends for 32 years and he would, we spent, and we would play Frisbee together. we'd
00:35:47
Speaker
play music together all the time. We would listen to music a lot together. He became my coach, my trombone coach when I was trying to get into area band in all state because like he could like, you know, you ah you're cheating on that F sharp scale, you know, like he could like hold my feet to the fire. Yeah. And it was just such a joyous. He's one of the nicest humans I ever met. And he he had a photographic memory, too.
00:36:10
Speaker
So he's like, do you know what we did on July 13th, 1985? And I'm like, i have no idea You like it wasn't 85. It must've been in the nineties. Cause that was when I was in high school, but ah you get the point. Like he could tell it, like i could give him a date. He'd know what day of the week it was. And he'd know what it is.
00:36:31
Speaker
It's such a joyful relationship. And he'd visit me through college and through grad school. He'd come out and we'd, you know, and I just saw him a month ago. Really? like He moved to Connecticut and,
00:36:43
Speaker
to be closer to his kids. And I was like, he's only Connecticut. He was in New Jersey. He's only in Connecticut. And I'm like, I got to go visit. I got to go visit Jack. Like, it's just been too long.
00:36:55
Speaker
I mean, I'd see him every time I came to New Jersey. Sure. So I just saw him a month ago. And sure enough, of course, he slowed down. Sure. He had a walker and all this. And you know But that was fine. and We still went out to dinner. We still shot the shit. We still teased each other. oh you're moving slow for an old bag of shit. you know what I mean? Like constantly, you know, ah he's like, well, it' just you wait, young timer. you know And I'm like, do you still put the dollar bills? Like, you still put the the the bills in denominational order in your wallet? Like ones and fives and tens and twenties, because that's OCD shit. He's like, why don't you just eat your dinner before I don't pay for it? He's like, I don't even own a debit card. What the fuck is that?
00:37:36
Speaker
He doesn't. No, it was just, it was a great dinner we had. And i was so, I don't know, something lit a fire under my ass to go see him a month ago. And I'm so glad we went out to dinner. His wife's still fine. She's like also in her eighties, totally able-bodied, lovely.
00:37:52
Speaker
I saw her. um And then, yeah, I got the call yesterday from his daughter that he passed. The motherfucker didn't tell me that. Like, I knew he had like slow growing cancer, but it wasn't really growing. It was just kind of like stasis for like many years.
00:38:07
Speaker
He didn't tell me like that it reactivated and he was going through stuff. And I suspect he didn't want to like burden me with it. See, that's sorry. i Go ahead.
00:38:20
Speaker
ahead. Well, it's a blessing and a curse because the truth is, obviously, I don't want i watched my mother die. and My dad also died. like Watching people die is not something that's on high on my bingo card. yeah um Of course, you know i don't want them to be alone. And he was with his family surrounded by us.
00:38:39
Speaker
It was just great. um So I don't hold it. You know, I think he wanted our relationship to be about fun. You know, we were always, we always had fun together. Yeah.
00:38:50
Speaker
And I don't think he wanted to bring down the mood. And it's like, all really? Like all the way to the end. How old was he? He was 87. Yeah.
00:39:02
Speaker
First of all, 87 is a good fucking run. You know, like that's a good that's a that's a stand up triple. Maybe I'm rounding home, you know, like that's a good run. And he knew it. He said, you know, he said, Paul, you know, I feel like I'm in the bonus time. Yeah. He's like, once I hit like 75, 80, he's like, these are all bonus years. Like, I didn't expect any of this.
00:39:24
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And there's also you got to imagine um and I'm not trying to make light of anything, but you also got to imagine as an 87 dude. who probably his, his whole family knew that the cancer had come back and, and it wasn't long. Like he, he had a moment where he got to be with you and just like, fucking chill, just be normal and just like crack jokes and fucking make fun of you.
00:39:52
Speaker
And, and, you know, like you got to have a real human moment. And he was like, let's just, why, why taint that? with yeah telling Paul that I have cancer. I know he looked a little distant at dinner, a little far off. And I was like, what's going on? And I'm like, is that just age creeping in? Or is he, you know, so part of me wonders like how much he knew a month ago.
00:40:14
Speaker
um But then we went back to his place and he played his harp for me. He's like playing this symphonic harp. Eric, huge, huge. Fucking amazing. And he played an Unchained Melody. I recorded it on my phone. I'm so glad I took my phone out. He played Unchained Melody on a fucking symphonic harp.
00:40:31
Speaker
on our last the last time we saw each other yeah it was great of course it was great yeah um yeah so that happened yesterday and of course when i got the call i was like of course i cried for a little bit just i don't know maybe the shock of it but i had been preparing myself for this for years years and years he wrote me so many hundreds of letters i kept them all they're all in my basement yeah and um I prepared myself. I don't know if if if you think about preparing yourself for death often, but having lost both my parents, like yeah it's the kind of thing that when you see someone in their upper eighties, you kind of like think about it and you're like, there will come a day when I'm on this earth and maybe they're not. And I'm going to have to, I'm to have to be okay with that.
00:41:18
Speaker
Yeah. And there's been so many times I i said to myself and to him, that I know there's going to come a time when I'm here and you're not, and that's going to be, that's going to be tough.
00:41:32
Speaker
But I, you know, I'm so thankful.
00:41:36
Speaker
What a good human you were. Yeah.
00:41:42
Speaker
And we had so many good times together. Well, it's just, I feel like I just want to say that, um,
00:41:52
Speaker
yeah Yeah. How many friends do you have left where you only, where you have 32 years of history together? Yeah. And I feel like you, you know, as you get older, you know, you get less and less of those people. Like, Hey, am my parents, my parents knew me for even longer. Of course. Yeah.
00:42:07
Speaker
Yeah. But anyway, um yeah, that happened. So that, that leads me to my question, Eric. Well, before, before you ask your question, i just want to say,
00:42:19
Speaker
This is why i tell you that I love you. This is why I tell my friends that I love them. love you buddy. there is there will come a point where I don't get to tell you that anymore.
00:42:30
Speaker
It's true. and i And I hope that um whenever that point is, that I said it enough that you knew it and believed it. That's all there is to it. Considering I'm about 30 years older than you, I think that time's coming for me first.
00:42:46
Speaker
The guy... But I choked the chicken.
00:42:54
Speaker
Gonna dehydrate yourself to death, buddy. Come on, you gotta be careful out there. Get that Gatorade up in that bitch. If anyone doesn't get that reference, watch the previous episode.
00:43:06
Speaker
I hope, I hope to Christ when I get word that you fucking died that they're like, he died of dehydration. He was fucking, he was wanking it too many times. Oh, stop it. Oh my God. That was so funny.
00:43:20
Speaker
I'm crying. Oh, that's so funny. Okay. oh So Eric, i didn't know that that's my tribute to my friend, Jack. I love him. i will always love him. And this, this got me thinking about my question for tonight, which is,
00:43:37
Speaker
i'm going to start it with the observation, and then we can talk about what's behind the observation. The observation is this.
00:43:46
Speaker
As I've gotten older or more into art, I'm not sure which or both.
00:43:52
Speaker
I've gotten more sensitive. The sensitivity knob on empathy, on catching on to people's feelings, on caring.
00:44:04
Speaker
The sensitivity knob has just been turned to 10.
00:44:09
Speaker
I didn't used to be that way. When I was in graduate school and I was just doing science all the time, I was like,
00:44:20
Speaker
I was not sensitive. I was like hardcore. Well, sucks. Sucks to suck. Like too bad. That's that's too bad for you. you know, should have done this. yeah Like it was just so cut and dry. Everything was black and white.
00:44:34
Speaker
And it was easy. it was easy to not think about problems. He's just out of sight, out of mind, all the just out of sight, water off a duck's back impervious.
00:44:46
Speaker
Now, 20 years later.
00:44:50
Speaker
I feel everything and I feel it hard and it's a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing because i feel like if from an art perspective and from an emotional perspective, you can read the tea leaves, you can look at a piece and you can see what kind of vibe it gives you. You feel it.
00:45:08
Speaker
You feel the nuance of like every little change. you like, it puts it in a like, it's a little too harsh or it's ah it's a little too subtle. It doesn't quite have the effect. It, You know what I mean? it's It's as if you're like a fine-tuned like machine, like kind of looking at art, talking about art all the time, talking with your friends.
00:45:27
Speaker
I love you, man. How's it going? talking it yeah it's like It's like every day we're fucking neck deep in emotions, in in philosophical thoughts, in challenging questions, in empathy, in all that.
Art, Aging, and Personal Growth
00:45:46
Speaker
And that makes you more vulnerable to feeling hard feelings like the pain of loss or arguments or riffs or like breakups.
00:45:57
Speaker
So I guess my question is twofold. do Have you found that's true? That as you've become better at art, you've become more emotionally receptive and more emotionally available to all to the yin yang of good and bad emotions.
00:46:14
Speaker
And second of all, What's behind it? is it is it is has art pre Has art conditioned you to be this way? were you always this way and art just developed it?
00:46:28
Speaker
Or is it age-related? Or is it all three?
00:46:36
Speaker
man.
00:46:44
Speaker
I'm not I. God damn.
00:46:51
Speaker
I think. That I am naturally predisposed to big emotions, you know, to feel things.
00:47:08
Speaker
not necessarily more than other people. I don't think that's true. um but But the things that I do feel and engage with um are...
00:47:24
Speaker
They're sizable, you know? um
00:47:30
Speaker
And I think age has made me more...
00:47:38
Speaker
aware of, uh, other people's experiences as well. Um, so I think when I was younger, i think, uh, those emotions were largely, um, about my own experience.
00:47:53
Speaker
And then as time has gone by, i have noticed, um,
00:48:00
Speaker
other people's experiences have started to affect me the same way as my own experiences. I don't think that's necessarily related to art. I think maybe what art has done is helped me.
00:48:17
Speaker
it it gave me a vehicle early on to articulate things that I couldn't in words. And then over time and practice, um, that manifested um,
00:48:34
Speaker
healthier relationships because I could then both empathize with people's experiences and um articulate my own and learn when not to articulate my own and just kind of absorb what they were going through.
00:48:49
Speaker
um But I don't know. i think it's age and practice. I don't know that you can disentangle those two things.
00:49:01
Speaker
You know? don't think so. No? Well, my own opinion is this. We're born with a predisposition. So like some athletes are just born with elite eye hand coordination, just sort of the circuitry is there. Right. Sure. But it needs practice to become that all that like world-class athlete. Not that you and I are world-class. I mean, you know We were so good.
00:49:26
Speaker
You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, there's a genetic predisposition to, I think being good at art or whatever. yeah. But it needs to be developed. So I think there's a practice and a come ah component of doing the thing for a long period of time that develops that seed that was inside you genetically.
00:49:49
Speaker
So I think you probably had a seed of something about working with your hands or art or or yeah sculptural form. like You just get it. You just get it. And the more you did it, the more you got it.
00:50:01
Speaker
It just developed what I think was already inside you as a child. And you in that way, yes, i mean, I think we're born with a little bit of it, but you have to develop it and it does make you more sensitive and you you get tuned in a little bit more.
00:50:16
Speaker
And I do think age mellows you the fuck out. I just I just. Age has mellowed me out so much. I think I agree.
00:50:26
Speaker
But the problem the problem is I was aging and and doing art at the same time. so it's hard to disentangle them. It's hard to say it was one, it was the other because they occurred simultaneously.
00:50:37
Speaker
Sorry, go ahead. Well, I, I agree. I think age mellows you out, but I don't, I, I don't think that's the same as becoming more open.
00:50:48
Speaker
I think those are two different things. Like there's, there's, I mean, how many, how many older folks do we know that as they get older, they dig their heels in harder? Oh, that's true. You know? And, and, and so it's not, yeah.
00:51:01
Speaker
It is true. It softens the narcissism maybe to some extent. So like the feelings that you feel, the way that you absorb the world, the way that you, um, uh, uh, process the world is you don't have your main character syndrome is a little bit lessened.
00:51:19
Speaker
Yeah. Um, but I don't think it's a given that as you get older, you become more empathetic. I think often it's the opposite, or at least in, like pop culture, like we think of old people being obstinate and not open to new ideas.
00:51:35
Speaker
Wow. That's, that's interesting. You know, I never really thought about it like that. I just thought about my own aging experience, but you're right. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're more open with
Conclusion and Community Engagement
00:51:46
Speaker
age.
00:51:46
Speaker
How do you see that manifesting in your own life? Like outside of your artistic practice. So if you, if you take what you've learned from your artistic practice and apply it directly to your life, as you've aged, how does that, how does that become a net benefit to your relationships?
00:52:03
Speaker
I'm less reactive. I'm more an observer. i observe more and speak less. Like if my daughter comes to me with something like, oh, right. And she's all worked up about sharing. thing Sure.
00:52:16
Speaker
A little and technology, little technical hiccup. there Sorry, everyone. Paul's Eric Paul's computer shit the bed. but yeah it it it Yeah, anyway.
00:52:30
Speaker
um So you were saying you know age doesn't necessarily come with more empathy. In fact, many people dig in and get a little hardened with age. I think that's a very fair point.
00:52:41
Speaker
um Perhaps it's the degree to which I engage in like creative types and relationships with creative types and think about art all the time that has kept me or has grown me softer than ever.
00:52:55
Speaker
I don't love it, but, um, it's great for art. Do you not feel like better than the alternative though? do you not feel like better than the alternative though I suppose it is. It's just hard. It's just, it's hard when things don't go your way. It's hard if you like hear a piece of news that is like,
00:53:15
Speaker
you know, tough in the world. Yeah. Right. Like you're moved by almost everything. It's tough when like some, a friend of yours is going through something and you know, like you, yeah like, you know, you internalize it, you feel it as if it's almost like yourself to some, to some degree.
00:53:31
Speaker
And yes, that's good on the whole, but boy, it, it, it, the volume has been turned up on the, on the meter. Yeah. Yeah, it's exhausting.
00:53:42
Speaker
But, um, so you asked me earlier if I think about, uh, death and, or like, you know, the ends of those relationships often. and And I do, um, we've talked many a time on this podcast about like legacy and, and what people think of you and your work afterward. And, um,
00:54:08
Speaker
If in a, of course, they're not only two options. It's it's a, it's a gray scale, not black and white, but, um, if it were black and white in the options where.
00:54:20
Speaker
cold hard motherfucker who like got through shit. You know, he, he, he navigated, he navigated the world fine, but he was, he was pretty shut down because all the experiences and, and know where you're going like, it's exhausting and tiring, but also like he cared, you know, that's always, it's, it's, it's this is one thing whenever anybody is like, what's, what is Paul like?
00:54:48
Speaker
You know, like who I don't know, Paul, what is Paul actually like as human being? I'm like this motherfucker cares, you know, he loves. And that's that's a It's an exhausting way to live, but it's a it's a I think it's a fundamentally better way. Yeah, it is. It is. It just comes with a price of like, oh, really?
00:55:09
Speaker
But no you're right. I feel that. I feel that. All right. But it's also like this is.
00:55:16
Speaker
This is a a maybe a gross oversimplification, but um it's like when when people complain about cooking dinner, it always makes me kind of chuckle a little bit because I'm like, okay, so your your options are...
00:55:33
Speaker
cook yourself a nice meal or like eat Kraft mac and cheese. And if you ate Kraft mac and cheese every day for the the next couple of months, a, you would be very sick because fucking scurvy or whatever, but also like, also you would hate it by then, you know? so like the idea it's yes. Yeah. Hey, you work eight, 10, 12 hours. And then you come home and you're like, fuck, I have to cook myself dinner again.
00:55:59
Speaker
Like, yeah, that's exhausting. And it never, ends but also like you and i both know that that is the right choice and that's not to say that sometimes you can't order a pizza or something but you know it reminded me of that bare naked lady song if i had a million dollars and it's like we wouldn't have to eat craft dinner but we would remember that yeah god i just dated myself again okay
00:56:30
Speaker
Well, Eric, that was a lot. this ah No, it's a light, airy episode, you know? That was a lot. That was a lot of a lot. But I think it was good. i was good.
00:56:41
Speaker
You know, I think your your topic of how to... tell a deep story and an object in a way that is appropriate for, you know, people who may not know and and not, you don't want to look back on it two years from now and be like, i was, you know, i overdid it. And I, yeah, you don't want that. I think that was a great, how how to strike the balance between Vicky loves that term, how to strike that balance between like saying too much and not saying enough. I think that's a great topic.
00:57:12
Speaker
Well, I, I think it's a thing I hope that people can relate to. I think we have, i think the majority of our listeners are, are woodworkers, but I think we have creative folks of, of all media.
00:57:25
Speaker
And i think we, as a people tend to, um, make objects that have emotional weight to them, you know? And sometimes like you, listen, you gotta to make the object, make the object. Yeah.
00:57:41
Speaker
But how do you relate that to a broader audience is the question. And sometimes it's a lightweight and sometimes it's a heavy weight. like, sometimes it's like you like this and other times it's this light, joyful weight, a like a collaboration between two people and you're just, yeah just yeah exchanging ideas.
00:57:58
Speaker
Yeah. um And then the second part, obviously the tribute to my friend Jack, which I love. It's great. what ah what a you know What a great thing it is to think about people who were so good to you and like added so much to your life and just to give them a moment of tribute, but then to understand that.
00:58:20
Speaker
maybe we Maybe the more we pursue art, the more we're going to be sensitive to the waves of emotion through our lives. I don't know if it's age-related or art-related or what.
00:58:32
Speaker
I'm sure the audience probably has some thoughts on that. Oh, I would be curious to hear some folks' opinions on that. Yeah, I feel like it's a it's a it's a bias crowd because we're all creative people.
00:58:44
Speaker
um But, you know, I would I would be genuinely curious to hear. which avenue do they think is making them more open to the human experience as time goes by?
00:59:00
Speaker
I wonder, I guess the first question is are they more open to the human experiences over time? Well, I also feel like this is a confirmation bias. Like the people who aren't aren't open aren't going to answer that question.
00:59:12
Speaker
Yeah. they're not going to send us DMS, you know? Oh, speak speak of which that's sending us DMS. I actually made a chat space on Patreon, uh, just a few days ago for all our patrons. So, um,
00:59:28
Speaker
if you're if you If you support us on Patreon, there's ah there's a fairly active chat going on. And what we do is so far is I share snippets of upcoming episodes about like what topic we're ideating about.
00:59:43
Speaker
And people... can ask questions or like have questions included or give us their experience before the episode so that we can mention it or reflect on it or add their questions in, which I think helps all of us. Like I think the people asking the questions obviously wanted them answered.
01:00:00
Speaker
And I think you and i always wanted to have a little bit more conversation feel a little more tuned in to what the listeners were thinking. Agreed. Agreed. Before the episode. So yeah that's going on on Patreon. So thank you for whoever supports us. And if you do support us on Patreon, obviously you get the video feed and the our our new chat community and the after show.
01:00:24
Speaker
And i I do just want to reiterate because we haven't in in in a while that the Patreon is what pays for the expenses of this show. It pays for the hosting fees. It pays for the mics. It pays for the headphones. It pays for all of the things that we need to to make sure that we can do this show um for you guys regularly. So if you like the show, if you want to support it,
01:00:48
Speaker
That's the place to do it. We appreciate and love every one of you who are doing that. And and then you get access to the after show where we talk about less heavy things. There will be jokes in the after show. I promise you that. What do we have planned for the after show?
01:01:05
Speaker
I have no idea. I'll tell you what, uh, we did just get back from it or I just got back from maker camp. Uh, a few days ago. We can talk about that. Uh, I did as but feels like annual tradition now create a new, ah fan account on Instagram.
01:01:24
Speaker
You did wish we could talk about it. The after show. Oh no, Eric. It's not Phineas Tooneman, is It's a good one. i was genuinely surprised that this account was open, so I had to take it while it was there.
01:01:37
Speaker
Oh no, I'm scared to even ask. yeah We can talk about it in the after show. Well, actually what I'd like to hear about in the after to show, of course Maker can't, but you said you've been getting all sorts of feedback about the Woodworking is Bullshit podcast. I'd like to hear a little bit about that. For sure.
01:01:52
Speaker
For sure. We can talk about that. All right, everyone. Well, there it is. Barstool Confessions. That is about as real as it gets. You guys appreciate you guys trudging through the fucking muck with us.
01:02:06
Speaker
That was a lot, that one. Yeah. but um All right, everyone. Well, we'll see in the after show or see you next time. Okay, bye. Bye.