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Episode 41 - Theory vs. Practice: What ACTUALLY Works in the Real World ?
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You know THAT person, the one who philosophizes from their living room chair, has ALL THE ANSWERS, but never really accomplishes anything. Yup, all theory, zero practical experience. You probably also know THAT OTHER person who launches head first into endeavors without knowing what they're doing, without doing any preparation, only to find they wasted time and money and are in WAYYY over their head. Yes sireee, zero theory and only practical experience, learning by jumping directly into the deep end and sometimes swimming and other times drowning. WHICH TYPE OF PERSON ARE YOU? Today we get into a fascinating discussion into the tension between theory and practice and discuss which is more important for success.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Hosts
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Here we are, everyone. We are back with another episode of your favorite podcast, Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and we have two co-hosts in the chair tonight.
00:00:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have, of course, Eric Curtis, fine furniture and content creator.
00:00:32
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
but What, what, what?
00:00:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And second of all, we have our returning friend, as always, Jack Thomas, art professor, printmaker, learning designer, and the sexiest voice this side of the Mississippi River.
00:00:44
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Goddamn right. The Jack attack is back, Mac.
00:00:46
Jack Thomas
Oh, hey, guys. Thanks for having me.
00:00:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Oh.
00:00:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Jack, that voice. yeah
00:00:55
Jack Thomas
I'll be releasing my first ASMR album soon.
00:00:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ah
00:00:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So
00:00:58
Jack Thomas
Actually, that's not true. I won't.
Balancing Theory and Practice
00:01:00
Jack Thomas
I won't.
00:01:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, don't don't threaten the people with a good time.
00:01:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we, we, we introduced you as art professor, printmaker, learning designer, but I feel like it should be voice model.
00:01:10
Jack Thomas
Ooh, I like that.
00:01:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Voice model.
00:01:11
Jack Thomas
o
00:01:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Interesting.
00:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right?
00:01:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Not voice actor.
00:01:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Voice actor, voice model.
00:01:14
Jack Thomas
Ooh.
00:01:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So today's show, ah as you're going to find out, is about the balance.
00:01:19
Jack Thomas
as you're to find out.
00:01:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah we We had trouble coming up with a question to be to be to pose this as a question, but it's really about the balance between theory, thinking about the thing or thinking how to do the thing versus practice doing the thing.
00:01:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And this was Jack's idea she sent us a message and said, Hey guys, XXYYZZ. So I'm going to let Jack introduce this topic today.
00:01:49
Jack Thomas
Okay, so here's the frame of mind that I was in when I asked you guys that. I have spent all winter, all fall and winter and early spring, just planning this delicious farmstead garden, this amazing chicken coop, this great greenhouse, just theorizing the fuck out of all the amazing things I could possibly do as a homesteader.
00:02:12
Jack Thomas
Spring has finally come to the far reaches of northern Vermont. ah No more freezing days, finally.
00:02:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
and
00:02:18
Jack Thomas
I go outside. I stick a shovel in the ground. And the first thing I do is hit fucking rock.
Fuffy: Handling the Unexpected
00:02:29
Jack Thomas
Solid ass rock, you guys.
00:02:30
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
that's fucking brutal dog did you have it all mapped out like what was yeah you're like this is gonna go here this is gonna go there okay all right fair fair fair fair
00:02:33
Jack Thomas
Months of theorizing. I did. oh dude, dude. Oh. oh Look, I'm married to an architect. You know, you know, I got it mapped out. You know, I got it mapped out. I had everything planned and and the material realities of the world were just like, well, you can go fuck yourself.
00:02:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god.
00:02:52
Jack Thomas
And so as I was, ah you know, crying in the shower, mostly kidding, um and washing the dirt off myself, I had this I had this shower thought, you know, the the acronym like FAFO, like fuck around and find out.
00:03:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure.
00:03:06
Jack Thomas
I was like, okay, that means one thing, but this is something different. And I was like, fuffy, fuffy, fuck up and fix
00:03:13
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I...
00:03:16
Jack Thomas
Fuffy.
00:03:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy, love it.
00:03:17
Jack Thomas
Yes. And so now I'm in the middle of making this like pivot because my ideas about what I thought I was going to do got completely smashed by the material world and material reality.
00:03:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:03:31
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:03:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
i I really want to have a visual representation of Fuffy because this feels like yet another t-shirt. Like there has to be some, has to be like a tiny dog that's just Fuffy, you know?
00:03:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Fuffy.
00:03:44
Jack Thomas
Oh my God, you're so right.
00:03:48
Jack Thomas
Yes, yes.
00:03:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's not half bad.
00:03:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's fluffy, Eric.
00:03:52
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I know it has to be like, in order for it to be a dog, it has to be F-U-F-F-I. And I don't know how to, I don't know how to flesh it out.
00:03:58
Jack Thomas
Totally.
00:04:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
don't know how to flesh it out.
00:04:01
Jack Thomas
we can We can noodle on that later, but yeah, you're totally right. It's gotta be a t-shirt.
00:04:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so So Jack, your story is really about like you had thought for so long the theory of what you wanted that yard to look like in your vegetable
Theory-Practice Spectrum
00:04:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
garden. and And you had it all beautifully planned out. And then the minute you actually turned to execution, the world had other ideas for you.
00:04:21
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
00:04:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:04:21
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:04:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So this brought up this brought up the the sort of the tension or the balance between theory and practice. And this is, I think this applies to every everyone um about almost everything as I was thinking about this in advance.
00:04:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so as I was kind of like getting my head together about this, the balance of the two and one versus the other, and which is more important and, and, and do we tend towards one? Do we tend towards the other? Which one's more powerful in terms of like an artist?
00:04:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I came across a quote that I thought was really funny. And it says,
00:04:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In theory, in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is. and That to me, right?
00:05:06
Jack Thomas
Oh my god.
00:05:07
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's pretty good.
00:05:08
Jack Thomas
That is so good.
00:05:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's pretty good.
00:05:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that was spoken by Benjamin Brewster in the Yale Literary Magazine in 1881. love it.
00:05:19
Jack Thomas
I totally expected that to be like a digital age thing because I feel like living in the digital age has made us so like sluts for theory, you know?
00:05:30
Jack Thomas
um oh that's a t-shirt too.
00:05:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:05:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ah so That was my favorite punk band in the ninety
00:05:31
Jack Thomas
Slut for theory.
00:05:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sluts for theory.
00:05:32
Jack Thomas
Yes, absolutely.
00:05:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:05:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm a slut for theory.
00:05:35
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
that was I would believe that was Courtney Love's second band, Sluts for Theory.
00:05:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:05:35
Jack Thomas
um i am too. Oh, yeah.
00:05:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm.
00:05:38
Jack Thomas
Sluts for theory.
00:05:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:05:39
Jack Thomas
Absolutely. Yeah. um I mean, and I i am and I'm i'm that person. Okay. So like, you know, listening to past episodes, like the episode on perfectionism, like really, really hit me.
00:05:49
Jack Thomas
And I was just like, oh, damn, it's actually very comfortable and very safe and cozy to just stay in your little world of theory. Because when you're in the world of theory, nothing fucks up.
00:05:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
here
00:06:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:06:02
Jack Thomas
But as soon as you move to practice, things start to fall apart sometimes.
00:06:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's right.
00:06:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you're You're vulnerable.
00:06:07
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But I mean, it's every time there's no there's no sometimes about it.
00:06:09
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's every time.
00:06:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Anytime, anytime you you meet material reality, there are forces that you didn't account for. And that's like, that's part of the interest of doing the thing.
00:06:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But it's interesting to hear you say that you think that you kind of the digital age has made us sluts for theory. Personally, I'm a slut for for a roast chicken, but that's just me. um the the
00:06:34
Jack Thomas
You can be both.
00:06:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha.
00:06:37
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
The idea that we prefer theory, I think, is not surprising. But I... ah I think we live in a time now, which is different from any other time in human history, where you can build your own reality that is based around your theory because of the digital age we live in.
00:07:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So you can construct a world, right? Whatever, Minecraft, fucking Facebook, YouTube, whatever it is, you can come up with an ideal and then build a world around that ideal rather than the other way around where you have an idea and you're trying to to create it in this world that is imperfect.
00:07:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And that's an interesting
Embracing Imperfections
00:07:19
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
kind of,
00:07:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What Eric, I didn't follow that all. I'm sorry. Say that again.
00:07:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
how do I phrase that differently? um
00:07:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So I'm thinking about like the Shaper Origin, right? I've been using the Origin for a number of years. It's a great tool. If I tell it to do X and now it has something called the Bench Pilot, which isn't out yet, but probably will be by the time this episode comes out.
00:07:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Now it's as effectively a CNC and you use the CNC all the time.
00:07:45
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:07:46
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Paul, you know all about that world.
00:07:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct. Yes.
00:07:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
If you tell it to do X, it will do X. There's no variability.
00:07:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:07:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:07:51
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
The second I take it off Bench Pilot and I use it with my own two hands, then I'm imparting
00:07:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Randomness.
00:07:59
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
randomness to it.
00:08:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
00:08:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so I think people living and working in digital fields
00:08:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
00:08:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
have the capacity to build a world around their theory so that their theory never has to meet reality in a way that we've never had before.
00:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, because you're, you're, Oh, so you're saying the digital world that could be constructed around a theory is also kind of fake, but it matches the theory.
00:08:21
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's yeah, it's fake.
00:08:22
Jack Thomas
Well, there's no friction.
00:08:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's fake.
00:08:23
Jack Thomas
yeah
00:08:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And they build it to match the theory so that they never have to come out of their comfy little cocoon of theoretical.
00:08:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:08:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. And where the rubber really meets the road in the real world, like making things actually like producing actual items that humans will use as opposed to like these little digital.
00:08:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah.
00:08:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I see. Okay. Okay.
00:08:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
The second you take the thing out of a CAD drawing and actually try to get a manufacturer to create it, even if it's like ah a fully malleable a product, like it's made out of plastic or something, there are still limitations to that, that there aren't in a way in a world of theory.
00:08:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. I see. I see.
00:08:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. I see. So, Eric, what your comment makes me think of is like,
00:09:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and There's and there's a limit on each end. So let's think of two diametrically up oppos opposed poles, right? On the one pole, you have the theory behind something like the the the the book learning, the academic, what you, you know, all of the the theoretical underpinnings of something, right? And you can read about it and you can discuss it. And Jack, you did a great job talking how it's all like, you know, ah you know, pie in the sky theory and and all this thinking, right? It's thinking is what it is.
00:09:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then there's the other part, which is the doing like sort of the ah other end of the spectrum. um I'm a practitioner. I know how to get shit done. I know what goes wrong. I can make the real world item.
00:09:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so that that sets up the two poles of the continuum. And I think we all know that all of us exist somewhere in that continuum. Each of us has had a different amount of theory and a different amount of practical
Learning Styles and Education
00:10:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
practical wisdom.
00:10:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I guess I'd first like the three of us to identify where on that continuum we think we are. So Jack?
00:10:12
Jack Thomas
ah well
00:10:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why don't you, why don't you put yourself where on that continuum are you? And I suppose the answer changes depending on what we're talking about, but, but please.
00:10:19
Jack Thomas
Totally.
00:10:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I was going to ask, what's the application of it?
00:10:22
Jack Thomas
yeah.
00:10:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
like where Where do we fall in there?
00:10:22
Jack Thomas
yeah Yeah, that's and that's a good question. ah Like I would say in the so for instance, in the context of woodworking, slut for theory all day. Like, I love to try to make things.
00:10:35
Jack Thomas
But i you know, I can I've read hundreds of pages probably about different types of wood joints. Can I actually make those the way that you guys can?
00:10:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:10:43
Jack Thomas
Abso-fucking-lutely not. No, I would love that.
00:10:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy!
00:10:46
Jack Thomas
But I haven't. ah I haven't fucked around and fixed it. Fucked up.
00:10:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy!
00:10:51
Jack Thomas
fuck fuck I haven't fucked up and fixed it yet.
00:10:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy!
00:10:52
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Having fluffied it, yeah.
00:10:53
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:10:53
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:10:54
Jack Thomas
Yeah. And i I think that part of this is actually the academic problem, right? Because in the world of digital ah veneer, right, and in the world of academic theory, you're actually not allowed to fuck up.
00:11:04
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
veneer.
00:11:07
Jack Thomas
like You're not allowed to have imperfection unless you frame it as like a, oh, look at me. I'm so imperfect. I totally – that's the vibe, right?
00:11:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:11:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm.
00:11:18
Jack Thomas
At least from from my perspective as a non-internet creator.
00:11:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay
00:11:21
Jack Thomas
So I'm a huge slut for theory when it comes to things that I theoretically i had idolize and theoretically love but have not put into practice.
00:11:32
Jack Thomas
But if you put me over like in front of a printmaking press – instantly am all about practice because the theory, the theory is so embedded already and it's had practice layered on top of it, you know, that it's like natural.
00:11:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:11:44
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Go
00:11:49
Jack Thomas
It's like, you don't think about how you eat with a spoon when you pick up a spoon, you know, like you just do it. How about you guys?
00:11:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ahead, Paul.
00:12:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Okay. So I'll say ah you gave two different fields, Jack, you gave woodworking and printmaking and, and contrasted the two, how like you were at a different place on the continuum for both.
00:12:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I will say, I'm a huge component of a proponent of balance between practice and theory. And that came from my academic, um, experience as a scientist.
00:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I have a PhD, right? A doctor of philosophy in the name is theory, like theoretician, philosophy, like philosopher,
00:12:32
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:12:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Right. But and so you think, OK, these, you know, in history, a Ph.D. meant you were a theoretician and ah an excellent one, a terminal degree.
00:12:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You went as far as as you could go.
00:12:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I mean, it meant you studied theology, right?
00:12:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But.
00:12:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So you were youre philosophizing about the existence of God.
00:13:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. So but funny enough, Eric. You go into grad school and I thought, well, what happens? Like you're in a PhD program and you're thinking it's all about theory.
00:13:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what happens? Well, in your second year and I was there for, so it takes about six, seven years to get a PhD in the biosciences. In your second year, you have to identify a laboratory that you can fucking do some work.
00:13:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Figure it out. And for year three, four, five, six, and seven, you are working like a motherfucking dog at the bench, putting all that theory you learned in year one, but also you continue to learn. Like you learn the theory through your two, three, and four usually.
00:13:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
By your four, you're pretty much all work. But your one, two, and three is a ton of theory. And two, three, four, five, six, seven is a ton of practice.
00:13:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so it's very practical these days.
00:13:58
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
00:14:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, I have a PhD. And yes, I know the theoretical underpinnings of what I'm doing.
Practical Wisdom in Woodworking
00:14:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But it was married to a huge piece of actually doing the thing because one informs the other and round and round we go.
00:14:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You have a theory, you form a hypothesis about something, you come up with a way to test it. If you can't test it, what the fuck good are you? You have to create an experiment, get your ass in the lab, make the rubber hit the road, right?
00:14:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Test that shit. And when you get the data, you have to analyze the data, draw conclusions and come back to interpretation, which again, relies on the underlying theory, because if you don't have the underlying theory, you get a whole bunch of data and you don't know what the fuck it means.
00:14:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the two go round and round in this beautiful harmony. as part of your graduate training. And so that's where I'm coming from with this question. Like I thought, oh my God, like we have to balance the two, but Jack, you were ah sorry.
00:15:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we're gonna come to Jack cause we have to ask Eric where, so I fall smack in the middle from my experience.
00:15:08
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:15:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Jack, you were, what we're going to talk about after Eric's answer is like, what happens when one dominates the other? Like, i think that's a really useful exercise. Like when you're too theory based or you're too practice based, what are the risks? But Eric, where are you on the spectrum?
00:15:24
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Well, Paul, I just want to say real quick that um I view you, I'm not saying you're not balanced. I do think you are pretty balanced. You're pretty close to 50-50. But I think that you, or at least the way that I view you, is you have a slight upper hand on the theory side.
00:15:43
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And I wonder if that's because the way you just described that
00:15:43
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:15:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
for lack of a different way to phrase it, the scientific process, is it begins with a theory and the work stems out of the theory.
00:15:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does. It does.
00:15:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And then the job of the work is to prove the theory or disprove the theory, right? So so the the work by the natural kind of order of operations plays secondhand to the theory.
00:16:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i would say that's true.
00:16:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Okay, all right, all right. So we're on the same page.
00:16:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
at least At least in science. Like you have to ask yourself, what am I, what's the question? What am I trying to solve here?
00:16:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But but i I think you do the same thing in woodworking, right?
00:16:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know?
00:16:19
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like you you start with a, like, what do I want to build?
00:16:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. A design.
00:16:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
You start with an idea, you sketch on your iPad all the time, and then you put it into practice in the shop.
00:16:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes.
00:16:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
yeah I don't, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember a time where you've ever gone in the shop and just gone, what the fuck am I making today?
00:16:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, you're.
00:16:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it totally. Yeah, totally.
00:16:35
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:16:36
Jack Thomas
I have a question about that after we hear Eric's answer.
00:16:36
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So, oh, okay.
00:16:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Very good
00:16:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, where are you in the spectrum?
00:16:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Um, yeah.
00:16:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like you're a different place than, than say me or Jack.
00:16:45
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think that I am. And I think it stems out of um kind of a deep insecurity when I was younger that I wasn't good at the thing.
00:16:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
um I've said many a times that like my my hands know how to do things when my mind isn't working, right? So whatever it is.
00:17:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, wait, wait, wait, say that again. That's so good.
00:17:07
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
my
00:17:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Say that again.
00:17:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
My hands know how to do things when my mind isn't working properly. So or so it's like to to to give an example, um I have played piano most of my life.
00:17:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
00:17:13
Jack Thomas
That's amazing.
00:17:21
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And when I was in college and I was taking ah piano lessons, I would just go into the lesson every week and I would just play the thing and I would look at my hands because it's the natural thing for me to do. It's not for everybody. A lot of people can sight read music was never great at sight reading music.
00:17:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
um I can read music, I'll memorize
Learning Through Mistakes
00:17:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
it. And then I just watch my hands and my hands know the order of operations. And that particular teacher at that particular moment was like, I've never seen I've been teaching piano for like 30 something years. I've never seen anybody do that.
00:17:52
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I was like, I don't I don't think it's unique and I don't think it's special.
00:17:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:17:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's just that the way that my mind works is my hands remember the thing. And i know at this point in life that I can just trust my hands to do the thing. And I need ah an occasional cue of like, OK, this is the next section.
00:18:09
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And then I'm good for the next two to three pages. And I'm just writing. um Similarly, in woodworking, i have learned over time that if I know roughly where I'm going, the best results always come from me kind of kicking in the door and just like looking around the room and seeing what's there.
00:18:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Just go like full full chaos agent, you know?
00:18:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:18:31
Jack Thomas
That is terrifying. Oh my God.
00:18:32
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's like I know I'm going in there. I don't know what's in there, but I know I'm going in there. So how do I get in there fast enough so that I can react to what the stimuli are at hand and make the best decision?
00:18:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, dude, you're like the Kool-Aid man who like smashes down the wall.
00:18:45
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I fucking am. I fully am.
00:18:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:18:51
Jack Thomas
oh my God.
00:18:51
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
100%. smash through the cinder block wall and I look around and I'm like, all right, I can work with this. Yeah, this seems like it's okay.
00:18:56
Jack Thomas
Eric, Eric, just, just hearing that stresses me out.
00:19:01
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But but I think that stems from so you guys were both um much better students than I was. And school was not and is not built for people like me.
00:19:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And I interpreted that early on as I'm not good at theory. And I think a lot of that is like so specifically in my field, a lot of that is just
00:19:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that.
00:19:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Teachers early on who are so, um, the, the theory, the way of thinking, way of learning, the way of, and therefore the way of teaching is so deeply ingrained in them that they can't think to see it from a different angle.
00:19:43
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So again, as a young person, I interpreted that as like, I'm just not good at this.
00:19:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah i can see that
00:19:49
Jack Thomas
You just, you might've just had crappy teachers.
00:19:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And sure, sure, sure.
00:19:51
Jack Thomas
Like as a, as a learning designer, I i see that all the time, you know.
00:19:53
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
sure
00:19:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure. And I think part of it is that, but i you know I don't want to put anybody on blast, but I also didn't put in the effort in fairness because it was a perpetuating cycle.
00:20:05
Jack Thomas
Hmm.
00:20:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
right like They said I wasn't good at it. I believed I wasn't good at it, so I didn't try.
00:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:20:13
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So therefore, if I didn't try, there was no proof that I wasn't good at it. Right?
00:20:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Eric, you have a degree, have
Selling Art: Theory vs. Practice
00:20:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a degree in theology, right?
00:20:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, because because once I found something that I was interested then I could apply it and and really contend with it.
00:20:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's like,
00:20:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
um
00:20:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so where do you fall on the spectrum then?
00:20:32
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think for me. If we're going to keep it to the woodworking field specifically, I need some theory.
00:20:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
00:20:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I need some guiding principles, but they're really more of like a general agreement of like, this is the rough road you take to get to a beautiful object. And from there, i individualize everything.
00:20:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And what that in practice means is like, I just blow through the fucking door and start looking around and seeing what I have to work with.
00:21:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yeah!
00:21:02
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
oh yeah. Yeah. i
00:21:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy! Oh, yeah!
00:21:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It is, but, but it is that right.
00:21:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy! Uh-huh.
00:21:06
Jack Thomas
Fuffy.
00:21:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And, and, and I think the most interesting objects in my ah portfolio have always come from, I was doing a thing and it didn't work and I pivoted.
00:21:19
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so it, it adds these layers of detail and interest that I could never have possibly theorized because if you did that in theory, you'd just be like, that's a stupid fucking road to take.
00:21:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:21:30
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Why would I do that? I'm just going to take the, the path of lesser resistance. Yeah.
00:21:34
Jack Thomas
And I have to call myself out as a hypocrite here because the number one thing that I tell all of my students, told them for for like a decade now, is like, if you are acting like a perfectionist and you are trying to plan out every little thing and make it look the way it looks in your head, it's going to suck.
00:21:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so it sounds,
00:21:52
Jack Thomas
Because once you get in there, like all the magic is dead. It's just going to be this exhausted, tired ass piece If you try to plan out every brushstroke of your painting, you know, or whatever, you can't do it.
00:22:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:22:03
Jack Thomas
You have to leave room for the human element. People want to see the human element and the creativity. And I say that as a slut for theory.
00:22:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow, Jack, calling yourself out, girl.
00:22:15
Jack Thomas
i know I had to, i had to, man.
00:22:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Eric, it sounds like you're more on the practical, a a bit more on the practical side. Not that you don't have the theory as well, but you seem like more comfortable
00:22:24
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't shun theory. Um, but I think theory has severe limitations and at the risk of being a judgmental asshole, the people who piss me off the most in the world are the people who have all of the theory and none of the practice.
00:22:42
Jack Thomas
Yes.
00:22:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
00:22:43
Jack Thomas
Yes.
00:22:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:22:44
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And that, that includes, that includes everybody who's ever posted on Reddit full stop.
00:22:50
Jack Thomas
oh
00:22:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:22:52
Jack Thomas
Oh, dude.
00:22:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
00:22:53
Jack Thomas
Oh, man. that You just lobbed a fucking grenade.
00:22:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know how many, I don't know how many Reddit listeners are listening to this, but sorry.
00:22:57
Jack Thomas
And I love it. I love it.
00:22:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Molotov cocktail.
00:22:59
Jack Thomas
Love it.
00:23:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um,
00:23:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I just like it's it.
00:23:07
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Listen, if you this ah this is a gross oversimplification, but I'll hit it for the point of comedy.
00:23:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please hit it, hit it.
00:23:14
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
If you have time to post shit on Reddit, you are not putting that time into actually doing the thing that you're talking about on Reddit and therefore you're not practicing.
00:23:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh snap.
00:23:24
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So get the fuck out of here.
00:23:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh snap.
00:23:25
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I do not give a fuck about your opinion.
00:23:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Snap.
00:23:27
Jack Thomas
Man, I and so I used to feel this way about all social media, you know, in general, like, oh, my God, if I'm in there making a YouTube video or making an Instagram post, I'm concentrating on that and not doing the actual thing.
00:23:39
Jack Thomas
Right.
00:23:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:23:39
Jack Thomas
So I think that there's i think there's some gray area there.
00:23:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure.
00:23:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:23:41
Jack Thomas
And I'm not just saying that. So the denizens of Reddit don't come and murder us in our sleep. But ah yeah, yeah. yeah
00:23:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, you, what's so funny is that you focused in on people who are more theory and like armchair philosophizing fucking keyboard warriors telling you what's up and what's not.
00:24:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And that fucking goes up your ass sideways. And Jack, You, in your original message to us, sort of focused on that case study, right? Like that, that, ah can can you, can you elaborate on that, that case study that you said in the message?
00:24:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was, it was about like, what, what are you if you're just theory, right? Can you, can you?
00:24:21
Jack Thomas
Oh, yeah, yeah. So like, here's here's my thing. there's There's a poem called The Man in the Arena. And I cannot remember who wrote it, which makes me feel like a huge dick. But it's it's old. It's old. And basically, the gist of that is like, you know, there will be people who are sitting in the seats, you know, watching a gladiator match or something.
00:24:41
Jack Thomas
And they'll be booing and talking about how the gladiators are like, oh, they fucked that up. They did this wrong or whatever. And it's like, the guy who's down there on the floor of the arena doing the thing, no matter whether or not that person is fucking up, they are in the position of, of superiority there and of, of doing the thing of doing the thing.
00:25:04
Jack Thomas
And so like, you know, I think I've told you guys before i had this great sculpture professor who like really shot me down, you know, one day saying the ideas are not the work you have to actually make the fucking work because
00:25:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's such an important thing to learn and internalize.
00:25:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that. Can we say that again?
00:25:20
Jack Thomas
Yes.
00:25:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The ideas are not the work. I love it. I love that.
00:25:23
Jack Thomas
It's so important. Like, I honestly need to get that tattooed on myself as a slut for theory. ah You know, I really, i really do.
00:25:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha.
00:25:29
Jack Thomas
um Because you can, you set yourself up for disappointment. You know, if you, if you have a thing in your mind, even if you have a thing on a CAD file, frankly. it's not going to be exactly the way it was in your brain, right?
00:25:42
Jack Thomas
So you're setting yourself up for disappointment. And so for me, besides the ideas not being the work, if you have ideas and then you don't turn them into work, then you're not an artist.
00:25:54
Jack Thomas
You're not a craftsperson. You're just an armchair philosopher who's either afraid of failure or you don't actually prioritize the things that you claim to prioritize, in my humble but correct opinion.
00:26:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, oh, oh my God.
00:26:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
You're worried about me blowing up fucking Reddit and you're out here just torching the world.
00:26:14
Jack Thomas
Man, I live in the middle of nowhere.
00:26:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
00:26:15
Jack Thomas
People aren't find me.
00:26:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. I have two reactions. Jack, that is fucking fire. I love it.
00:26:20
Jack Thomas
It's savage. I'm sorry. It's savage. I know.
00:26:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, you know I love your fucking savage nature.
00:26:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Don't apologize.
00:26:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just love it.
00:26:26
Jack Thomas
What can I say?
00:26:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I have two i have two two thoughts that came up as you were saying that. Number one, theres there's been this adage that I've always remembered because it is so fucking true.
00:26:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I've experienced it firsthand a million times, I swear. It is easier to criticize than to create.
00:26:46
Jack Thomas
Oh, so true.
00:26:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That little phrase has stayed with me the last 10 years because I am frequently the one throwing out ideas, trying to create something, make this, make that, make this.
00:27:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I always felt like butthurt when I would be criticized and I'm like, what the fuck? I'm the one doing all the hard work here trying to come up with something. It's so much easier to sit back in your little theoretical ass chair and fucking criticize someone's idea.
00:27:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why aren't you coming up with the idea, motherfucker? Because it's hard. That's why. So I feel like that's a little bit that came up when you talked about you know the whole contrast of Armchair philosophizing and Reddit, Eric, versus versus the doing. But the other thing I thought of is I've always thought of the balance of the two with a metaphor of a of a Ferrari.
00:27:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I always thought like,
00:27:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Not the most balanced car, but go on. I'm curious to see where you go with this.
00:27:44
Jack Thomas
i'm I'm very intrigued.
00:27:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
okay, okay.
00:27:45
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:27:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I really, this I've thought about it this way for a while. I feel like practice without theory It's like having a Ferrari with no steering wheel.
00:27:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You can fucking rev that car. It'll go so fucking fast in a particular direction, but is it the right direction? You don't know where to go. You don't know how to steer it. theory without practice is like a car with a steering wheel, but you don't know how to turn the engine on.
00:28:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It just sits there. And it's thinking about all the wonderful places it's going to go, but it doesn't fucking go there. And really what you need is the marriage of the two, right? You need, you want to have that Ferrari like acceleration or for Conrad Porsche like acceleration with, um, with, with a good steering wheel and a sense of where you're going. I, to me that, that, that, that metaphor has always like kind of stuck with me.
00:28:40
Jack Thomas
That's awesome. Yeah, I feel that.
00:28:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I can't not think about um the type of person who bought it. Maybe it's not a Ferrari. Maybe that's that's too above budget. But the type of person it's like the maybe because I slightly identify with the the impulsive purchaser of like you bought the expensive car but didn't think about how much it was going to cost to maintain.
00:29:02
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And that is like, that's a little bit practice versus theory of like, yeah in theory, you really wanted to have a fucking Ferrari. In practice, you were like, but I already paid the money and now I don't have any more to keep the thing.
00:29:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yeah yeah to fix but Very good.
00:29:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I gotta i gotta to maintain the thing.
00:29:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Very good. Very good.
00:29:17
Jack Thomas
I think the other, the other like impulsive purchaser thing that's, that's like practice versus theory thing is like, do do either of y'all have ADHD?
00:29:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
very good
00:29:24
Jack Thomas
I definitely have ADHD.
00:29:25
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think I have undiagnosed ADHD, but I also feel like maybe that's a bias in 2025 that everybody thinks that.
00:29:28
Jack Thomas
Okay.
00:29:32
Jack Thomas
Um, I mean, if I can just throw it out there, I've, I've talked to you for less than 24 non-consecutive hours and I'm pretty sure you have ADHD.
00:29:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
this. Keep going.
00:29:39
Jack Thomas
But anyway, I'm sorry. no but look, look, I mean, what I mean to say,
00:29:46
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
no i love this keep going
00:29:52
Jack Thomas
Eric, what I mean to say is game sees game. Game sees game.
00:29:54
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
gave it's
00:29:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, that was a heroic save.
00:29:59
Jack Thomas
I'm just saying. But the, okay, so this is ah this is a thing that that famously or infamously people with ADHD do. You get hyper fixated on something that you're so fucking sure you're obsessed with.
00:30:09
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure.
00:30:12
Jack Thomas
You're like, this is part of my personality now.
00:30:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yep.
00:30:14
Jack Thomas
I'm going to like, I'm going to own this.
00:30:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm.
00:30:16
Jack Thomas
I'm going master this. I'm going to crush it. You go out and you buy all the stuff. A bunch what the fuck, Paul?
00:30:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
00:30:21
Jack Thomas
What?
00:30:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's so funny that you you...
00:30:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
He's really... He's loving the fact that you just fucking put me fully on blast on the internet.
00:30:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, yes, you called you called that much called his shit out in like the most epic fashion ever.
00:30:28
Jack Thomas
Bye.
00:30:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
He is He is so aroused right now.
00:30:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
00:30:34
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:30:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I am.
00:30:36
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. Should I narrate this?
00:30:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, fuffy, okay? Fuffy. Okay.
00:30:40
Jack Thomas
fluffy Fuffy, fuffy. But like, so you buy the things or maybe, maybe it's even and not a, not like a hobby. Maybe it's even a problem that you have.
00:30:47
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:30:48
Jack Thomas
Like if you're like, oh my God, I, uh, you know, I, I have terrible back pain or something like that. and you go and buy like one of these acupressure mats or something, and then use it once.
00:30:59
Jack Thomas
And then you never use it again, right? Because in theory, it was going to solve all your problems. In theory, you were going to be the world's most amazing oil painter, you know, or whatever.
00:31:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:31:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:31:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:31:10
Jack Thomas
and then you sit down to actually do it and you fucking hate it. You hate the process of it.
00:31:14
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm. The work is hard.
00:31:17
Jack Thomas
The work is hard. Exactly. Or even not even if it's not about being hard, it's like, wow, i just I just genuinely don't enjoy this.
00:31:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:31:24
Jack Thomas
Even if you're good at it, even if it's not hard, you're just like, this just doesn't gel with me on the day to day, you know?
00:31:26
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
00:31:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I have kind of a summar summarizing reflection, and I'd like to turn this towards craft now. Like we've talked about the concept of theory versus practice, right? And I'd like to turn it towards like making and woodworking and how does it work?
00:31:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But before, I guess sort of what I take away from this and thinking about this before the show and listening to what both of you said is I almost feel like the theory is like a higher level abstracted learning of of the thing.
00:31:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like, as you reflect on a field, it's the theory, like the underlying principles or the overla overarching principles, right? The theory is the big umbrella under which all things fall in essence.
00:32:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But when you actually do the thing,
00:32:17
Jack Thomas
Thank you.
00:32:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's one specific case that may or may not be under that umbrella. In theory, most cases are under that umbrella. and But we know that theory doesn't always cover us.
00:32:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like we find ourselves in in a spot where that didn't, That didn't go the way thought, right? And you're like, yeah, because that's the the doing the real thing. there were There were variables you didn't account for in that sort of overarching theory. So you sort of narrow your focus down to the doing of that one thing. And it's very different than this umbrella 10,000 foot view of theory.
00:32:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's almost like different zoom, right? a Different zoom. Go ahead, Eric.
00:32:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, well, I think we develop these theories where like the umbrella is a useful analogy because you know the rain comes down and the umbrella keeps this circle clear of rain.
00:33:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And then we think there's an umbrella next to it. And that's, that's fine. That's doing its job, but that's a different theory. And every now and again, we have the capacity to understand a basic Venn diagram that those two umbrellas overlap slightly.
00:33:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good point.
00:33:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But in reality, what's happening is every fucking umbrella on the goddamn planet is overlapping every other umbrella to some small degree.
00:33:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:33:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:33:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so you have this thing and you're thinking,
00:33:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:33:32
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
you're you're in the midst of this object in the midst of this process, and you think it falls under X theory. And then as you start doing the thing, you realize that it's it's it's kind of X theory, but it's also a little bit of Y theory and a little bit of Z theory and also a little bit of Q theory and like M theory is definitely not not there.
00:33:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see what you're saying.
00:33:51
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so then it becomes a full mind fuck because no theory actually fully applies to what you're doing.
00:33:56
Jack Thomas
It's so true.
00:33:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So
00:33:57
Jack Thomas
Nothing is isolated. And I see this, like, Eric, I just, I'm so so, I'm so struck by your, your story about feeling like you weren't good at something because a teacher told you that you weren't. And like, as a, as a learning designer and, you know, and and as ah a former college professor, I see that so much in education and it really fucking hurts me because there are so many kids who would be like so good at things if they were just, you know, taught the right way.
00:34:23
Jack Thomas
There are a lot of great teachers out there. There are also a lot of shitty teachers out there.
00:34:27
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure.
00:34:27
Jack Thomas
And there are, you know, I'm not going to pretend to remember this guy's name. There's some guy who has some like hierarchy of skill. That's like some theory. Right. But basically the gist is this. There are four stages of mastery.
00:34:40
Jack Thomas
The first stage of mastery is just theory. It's where you learn about a thing and you can like remember it and kind of regurgitate it. The second stage of mastery is where you can explain that thing to someone else well enough that they might kind of be able to like muddle their way through it, but maybe not.
00:34:58
Jack Thomas
The third stage of mastery is where you can do the thing. You can actually do the thing. But if something gets fucked up, you're totally screwed. The final stage of mastery is Fuffy.
00:35:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fuffy!
00:35:13
Jack Thomas
It is. It's where it's where you are such you have gained such expertise in this thing that you can do it. Not only can you do it, but you can adapt when something goes wrong and you can adapt other theories and principles into the ecosystem of that one thing so that you can address every possible scenario.
00:35:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:35:33
Jack Thomas
And it might not turn out perfectly, but you can address it. You can Fuffy.
00:35:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. Jack, that is an incredible framework. And Eric, let me butter your buns for a second by saying you are definitely like stage four in woodworking.
00:35:42
Jack Thomas
Mmm. You are.
00:35:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I have seen, I have seen you adapt to all kinds of fucking shit.
00:35:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Woo.
00:35:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I've,
00:35:49
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Consider my buns buttered, buddy. All right.
00:35:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah No, really. No, really. And I think both of us are. we've both We're both at the stage that we can we can recover from almost a lot of different things, which is really, Jack, that's a great framework for thinking about it.
00:35:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. For sure.
00:36:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That is, can I say something? i agree with, and I agree with what you just said.
00:36:06
Jack Thomas
Mmm.
00:36:07
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I agree with the quote. um One thing that I've been percolating on for the last 30 or so minutes is, Every time we framed this progression of the marriage of theory and practice, theory always comes first and practice always comes second chronologically.
00:36:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Theory comes first. Yeah.
00:36:23
Jack Thomas
Chronologically, right? Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:26
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But yeah, yeah, not necessarily hi hierarchically.
00:36:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:36:30
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But there are and I think I fall into this camp and this is why maybe I think I was a ah bad student. I can't, like, abstract theory is not helpful for me.
00:36:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I have to have some framework on which to put the plaster so that I can build an image and and understand how it works.
00:36:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:36:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so for me, practice comes first And then you fuffy the shit out of it. And then you go, why didn't it work?
00:36:59
Jack Thomas
Yes.
00:36:59
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And it's because then you start to learn pieces of the theory and you put the piece right because you're driven, you're driven to figure it out and figure out what you're doing wrong.
00:37:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
then you wanna learn the theory.
00:37:04
Jack Thomas
So like what you're describing.
00:37:09
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But it only comes through the framework of practice.
00:37:12
Jack Thomas
what What you're describing is project-based learning and like only the best teachers do it.
00:37:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack.
00:37:16
Jack Thomas
it's
00:37:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack.
00:37:16
Jack Thomas
It's very rare.
00:37:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jack, it's like there's,
00:37:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
yeah Nobody did it in the ninety s and 2000s.
00:37:19
Jack Thomas
I know. i know.
00:37:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That was not a thing.
00:37:21
Jack Thomas
i was there. It was terrible.
00:37:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:37:22
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:37:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's like this dichotomy. There's some people who are good at book learning and theory learning just straight off the bat.
00:37:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:37:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I definitely fall in that camp and so does my daughter. I watch her i watch the way she learns. She can go with a computer to a table and sit there for four straight hours and not look up. Like she has that in her, like she's no doubt theory first, like that's easy getting her to practice it and actually do it is actually the harder part.
00:37:40
Jack Thomas
wow
00:37:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:37:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whereas I know plenty of people who are like, get me the fuck out of this chair, get me out of this computer, put something in my hands.
00:37:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm hmm.
00:37:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Then I will understand why I need to learn it. Like I get what you're saying like deeply.
00:38:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:38:02
Jack Thomas
And not even for learning, but like sometimes people just like some people prefer theory as a way of life and some people prefer practice as a way of life, like getting your hands on things.
00:38:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric,
00:38:09
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:38:11
Jack Thomas
Some people love to be on computers and some people don't.
00:38:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Jack, you brought up the point, like for so long, education, and I don't think we want to pivot into like our education system debate, but for...
00:38:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think we should steer clear of that one right now.
00:38:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, but but like...
00:38:22
Jack Thomas
o Yeah, no, no, no, no.
00:38:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, but just to say, i think this is fairly obvious, and and for so long, whether...
00:38:27
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
00:38:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
our education system is theory and bookish and we haven't had enough focus on the trades, right? How many, trade how many people go to trade school to doing right versus the theory first, the college, right? What, you know, college versus trade school. So I do think we've been programmed that like the theory is more valuable and higher level until your fucking furnace breaks.
00:38:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then you're like, Oh, where's your theory getting you now?
00:38:53
Jack Thomas
Exactly.
00:38:54
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
her And not not only not only where is your theory getting you, but also the the affront, the the like people, the offense they take at calling in a plumber and paying them one hundred and hundred fifty dollars an hour.
00:38:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:38:57
Jack Thomas
Exactly.
00:39:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And they're like, how? Why? All they're doing is fix. I'm like, yeah, you go fix your fucking furnace.
00:39:15
Jack Thomas
Seriously.
00:39:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, that's like.
00:39:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and what are you being paid to to produce very little for society i no i sorry I meant that as the white collar person like let's say you have a like an investment job like exactly what what is your benefit
00:39:21
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But yeah, so the the the affront Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:26
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:39:27
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
and No, no, no. Yeah. But the the the the offense that they take, that the skill that they don't have, the knowledge that they don't know how to apply, then costs, quote unquote, real money is like, yeah, because you were taught your whole life that because you you are, quote unquote, smart, you're better than other people.
00:39:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no
00:39:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:39:48
Jack Thomas
which is just such bullshit.
00:39:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Number
00:39:49
Jack Thomas
There are different kinds of intelligence. And like, just for the record, my plumber is like the fourth most important man in my life. I have him on like
00:39:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
number four
00:39:59
Jack Thomas
number four and he, he fucking knows it. And I will happily pay whatever his fee is. that The man is an artist, right? I mean, like, and and that's the thing he's taken this trade to the nth degree of, of absolute mastery.
00:40:12
Jack Thomas
And some guy who fucking works on wall street cannot help me when my boiler goes out in january and it's negative 25 degrees like yeah
00:40:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
although ah Although I could hear some pushback from the crowd being like, yeah, but that person on Wall Street is going to tell you how to invest your 401k, which is going to earn you $100,000 the next years.
00:40:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah. Hey, fuck.
00:40:29
Jack Thomas
i'm a fucking millennial i don't have a 401k exactly exactly
00:40:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Fuck. Yeah, exactly. Fuck your 401k.
00:40:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah okay
00:40:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Okay. You can stick that in your ass sideways.
00:40:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but Okay. but what i Actually, what I want to say is like from from an early time that I was a homeowner, like i met the I've told you this story before, the 80-year-old guy across the street, Hal. He taught me how to sweat plumbing, like how to sweat copper, how to solder. He taught me how to wire circuits and about the gauge of the wire has to be married to the amperage and how to make sure it's grounded properly and the directionality of twisting your wires. and like He taught me all that. And it it engendered in me, like I was in the ivory tower, right? Four years of college, seven years of graduate school, four years of postdoctoral work.
00:41:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I was in the ivory tower my whole life, right? so open But having that experience when I bought my first home gave me such a deep appreciation for how hard was.
00:41:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the trades are and working with your hands are you're tired, you're exhausted, your fingers hurt from doing, from stripping wire and like then wrapping them around.
00:41:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Can confirm.
00:41:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so And it's, it's like, it gives like, I feel like, and now that I've been woodworking for 20 years, I feel and doing all my own electrical, doing my own plumbing. I sided my own house. I built my own porch. I built, you know, the chicken coop and, and,
00:41:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I feel like having explored both worlds thoroughly, i would say, have such an appreciation for a both. So i you know I know we can shit on one, we can shit on the other, and we can play both sides and it's kind of fun.
00:41:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I honestly, both you know i have appreciation for both sides, being able to speak from both sides.
00:42:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Well, in. in I think to your point, like at the beginning, Paul, both like your side starts with the theory, goes into the practice to prove the theory. So it has both the theory and the practice, and we are conditioned to believe that people who just build things for a living don't have theory.
00:42:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:42:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Go talk to any electrician. They know the code backwards and forwards.
00:42:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, they have to.
00:42:27
Jack Thomas
Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:42:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
They, they legally have to write any carpenter knows how long a two by 12 can span.
00:42:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They would never pass the test. That's right.
00:42:36
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like the, the theory it's basic engineering.
00:42:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's baked into their degree.
00:42:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So that, Yes.
00:42:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:42:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah. They have to.
00:42:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:42:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
They legally have to know these things so that they can do their job. So they are. We see them as building shit. But what they are doing is they are taking the theoretical knowledge that they have because other people have laid out that information before them and they've memorized it so that they can apply their craft.
00:42:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, good point.
00:42:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Great point.
00:42:59
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's not any different from what you're doing.
00:43:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, such a good point.
00:43:03
Jack Thomas
So true. Yeah.
00:43:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So let's take this question and move it to woodworking, let's say. So in terms of woodworking, I want to apply this whole theory versus practice to woodworking. In the field of woodworking or whatever, like whoever the listener is, whether you're a ceramicist or a painter or whatever you whatever kind of artist you are, what constitutes the theory and the thinking And what constitutes the practice?
00:43:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, I think it's fairly clear what it constitutes the practice, right? Duh. But Eric, what constitutes the the thinking or the theory part of woodworking to you?
00:43:43
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think that's a more complicated question than maybe you just gave it credit for. it
00:43:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:43:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Because there's so many parts, many layers of theory. like let's just Let's keep it specifically to woodworking, like even looking around this room, looking at mortise and tenons, looking at sliding dovetails, looking at what we would call the craft part, the practice part.
00:44:06
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's only practice now because we know the theory behind it and the doing it no longer requires thinking.
00:44:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:44:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:44:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But when you first do the thing, it's fully theory, right?
00:44:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:44:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's just an idea. It's this ethereal thing that you're trying to nail down in reality.
00:44:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:44:21
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So I don't know what that intersection is really or if it or if it just continues to to move as you get better at your craft.
00:44:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, let me...
00:44:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well let let me
00:44:31
Jack Thomas
Well, my
00:44:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Jack.
00:44:33
Jack Thomas
my my my question is is this, and this is the one I was gonna ask before when Eric was giving his answer. As somebody who is not a and amazing woodworker, production woodworker, you know any of that, my question is, do you feel like ah knowing how to execute individual elements of things, like dovetails, et cetera, is that the equivalent of theory, like how to do something and why?
00:45:00
Jack Thomas
And here's why I'm asking that question. I have an amazing cookbook. I have a lot of amazing cookbooks. um But my favorite one is called Baking at Home with the Culinary Institute of America.
00:45:13
Jack Thomas
The reason it's my favorite is because it's not actually a recipe book. There are some recipes in it. But it's a practice book. It is a techniques book.
00:45:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:45:25
Jack Thomas
And so instead of saying, here's the recipe for something, make it. But if you fuck it up, there's no explanation for why. The book gives you recipes, but it says, here's why you have to fold the egg white in first before the yolk.
00:45:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
00:45:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:45:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, the theory.
00:45:40
Jack Thomas
you know and like as yeah and like as ah yeah as an art professor yeah like And as an art professor, i'm like, yes, like people have to have this.
00:45:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
that's That's the weird thing, right?
00:45:49
Jack Thomas
You can't just understand. And I'm wondering what the woodworking equivalent of that is. like Does somebody who just like, and no shade to anybody who does this, because obviously I can't talk.
00:46:00
Jack Thomas
But if you a woodworking plan for like a console table online, and you're like, i just want to build this console table. And you go and you start building this console table that someone else has designed.
00:46:11
Jack Thomas
Do you feel like that design circumvents the theory and they just get to get right to the practice? But then what happens when you fuck up?
00:46:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
No, no, I see.
00:46:25
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Even the cookbook that you just described, it is full of practical um advice, right? Here's what you do. Here's the order of operations. And then it's also giving you the theory as to like why you need to do it in this order. And that's that's a good Venn diagram of information.
00:46:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And you read that book. and you know that information. And so if you read that book, and you were about to go make one of the recipes in the thing, or do one of the things, one of the techniques in the book, and I said, do you know how to do it?
00:46:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And you would say, yeah, in theory.
00:46:58
Jack Thomas
That's exactly what I would say.
00:46:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like it's it's and so right, so so the theory is just the thing you haven't yet put into practice. Like I, I can build, I am reasonably confident that
00:47:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
90% of things made out of wood you put in front of me, I could figure out how to build. Doesn't mean I could build build it well, but I could figure out how to build. The guitar behind me, I could figure out how to build a guitar.
00:47:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I know how to build a guitar in theory, but I haven't built one yet. So like this it's this weird moving target of like, When you cut a dovetail, there's theory as to how to cut a dovetail. And that's the thing you teach somebody how to do.
00:47:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But once you know how to do it, it's no longer theory. And then you move on to a mortise and tenon. And now you know how to cut a mortise and tenon in theory until you do it. And that target keeps moving weird.
00:47:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So, Eric, you're speaking to something that I thought prior to the episode. I have first thought what it's as simple as this. I tried to simplify the the discrimination between theory and practice.
00:47:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So my first thought was, well, the design the theory and the building is the the doing, the execution, right? And then I thought, that's not exactly...
00:48:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Accurate because yes, the design is the theory.
00:48:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:48:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure. Like that part is fine. But in the practice in actually doing the thing, there's micro theory that comes into play. Like, why do you like, why do you use a dovetail?
00:48:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why is the grain orientation the way it is? Like we think about expansion contraction. That's a theoretical consideration. And we have to understand the underpinnings of it to figure out a way allow the wood to move and expand and contract without breaking itself.
00:48:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you'd say, well, why did you do mortise and tenon? Or why did you do a half-lap joint? Or why did you do this? Or why did you orient the grain like that when you did the thing? It's because I had the theory that went along with the thing. So there's like And this is what you're saying.
00:49:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's like micro periods of theory that under underlie all of the operations we do, practically speaking, whether it's mortise and tenon or dovetail or or grain direction or finish.
00:49:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:49:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, how do we decide what finish to use?
00:49:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure.
00:49:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so How do we decide what glue to use? Oh, I want the piece to be restorable a hundred years from now, 200 years from now. That's a theory question. You're not good You haven't lived my 200 years and firsthand experience to the glue failure, like, or restoration. Like,
00:49:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a theoretical point that you had to know during the execution. So it's like the theory actually is far more embedded than we want to, you know, it's not so it's not like this black and white, you know, design versus execution.
00:49:43
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:49:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's far more sprinkled.
00:49:47
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So when does it does it? How does it shift or does it shift from your perspective? Because I think it does slightly from mine. If the theory is something you learned out of a book from a conversation, et etc, versus something you learned in practice, like you have you have firsthand experience, and maybe maybe it was just exploratory, like you you built a chest.
00:50:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:50:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well.
00:50:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And 10 years later, it blew the fuck up because you didn't understand about wood movement.
00:50:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:50:16
Jack Thomas
I have this
00:50:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And now, now you understand wood movement. And so now you're going to apply, that's applied knowledge. That's not theory.
00:50:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:50:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
You just go like, I know wood moves, so I'm going to build it in a way that I know is not going to blow up.
00:50:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:50:30
Jack Thomas
I'm so glad that you said that because like I have this exact question.
00:50:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack?
00:50:30
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Is that just framework?
00:50:34
Jack Thomas
So several years ago, I had this like sick truck that I took camping everywhere had like a rooftop tent and stuff. And I was like, I need to build as a as a non professional woodworker, I need to build like a six set of like decked camping drawers that go in the back of the truck like two big drawers that the full bed length like platform on top you guys i i shit you not when i said like the most advanced woodworking i'd done at that point was like carving a spoon right and i was like you know what i know how to do this i know how to do this i'm gonna do this i had no idea how to do this puppy exactly
00:51:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Fuffy baby!
00:51:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha Fuffy! Fuffy!
00:51:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ah fuy baby
00:51:14
Jack Thomas
And I was like, you know what? I'm going to look online about how to do this and this and this. I'm going make a SketchUp model of exactly every fucking dimension because there's nothing there's nothing that ah a slut for theory with ADHD loves more than making a SketchUp model.
00:51:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, you are. Yeah, you are.
00:51:31
Jack Thomas
And so I did. and then I made a cut list from the SketchUp model. And I found the wood and did all the cuts.
00:51:37
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Ooh, I love this little southern twang you just pulled in there.
00:51:39
Jack Thomas
Sorry. It's the whiskey.
00:51:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please.
00:51:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Woo!
00:51:40
Jack Thomas
It's the whiskey, man.
00:51:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hoey, girl!
00:51:41
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:51:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
jack Jack, put it on.
00:51:42
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:51:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, lay it on thick. Come on, you you can do it.
00:51:45
Jack Thomas
Y'all look, I'm going to be laying it on thick by the time we get done this sep episode right now. Just give me a minute. Just give me a minute, y'all. All right. So anyway, all of this to say at the time, at the time,
00:51:58
Jack Thomas
I was married to a person I'm you know no longer married to. And this person was ah was not the kind of person who thought it was okay to go straight into practice. And even as a slut for theory, his level of sluttiness for theory was untouchable to me, right?
00:52:13
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
He was a hoe for theory.
00:52:14
Jack Thomas
He was a hoe for theory.
00:52:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whoa.
00:52:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Oh, okay.
00:52:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whoa.
00:52:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Okay.
00:52:16
Jack Thomas
Yeah, yeah. He was the fucking madam of the theory hoe house. I mean, he was like...
00:52:24
Jack Thomas
And it will it will not surprise you to learn that he was like a doctor and a scientist, right? So anyway, mean, doctors do plenty of practice, obviously, but sorry, sorry.
00:52:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Hey now. Hey now. Watch it.
00:52:34
Jack Thomas
I'm sorry. You're different.
00:52:35
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
is his
00:52:36
Jack Thomas
You're different.
00:52:37
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
He's not a real doctor. It's fine. just
00:52:39
Jack Thomas
Right, exactly.
00:52:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Oh, man.
00:52:40
Jack Thomas
He's like, PhD, not MD.
00:52:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:52:42
Jack Thomas
It's fine. It's fine. So, you know, I'm in ah i'm in our garage. um I'm taking all these measurements. I'm starting to build this thing. And he was like, this is a bad idea. You have no idea what you're doing.
00:52:52
Jack Thomas
Like, this is not going to end well. You should not do it. This is going to suck.
00:52:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
man
00:52:57
Jack Thomas
Because his understanding was that I go into a project thinking that everything's going to turn out right. That's not the case. I go into a project thinking things probably aren't going to turn out right.
00:53:11
Jack Thomas
But if they do, I'm fucking thrilled.
00:53:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
00:53:13
Jack Thomas
Right. It's two completely different mindsets.
00:53:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:53:15
Jack Thomas
So even though i'm a slut for theory, I'm like, I get the theory as much as I can. And then I go into it. But if I love the process and this is this is the stickler part.
00:53:27
Jack Thomas
If I love the process of what I'm doing, I'm then it's totally fine to go into practice after only a little theory, because if it fucks up and it's not exactly what I, I'll fuffy it and I'll enjoy every goddamn minute of it.
00:53:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You'll fluffy it.
00:53:39
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
yeah
00:53:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:53:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
See, i Jack, I am exactly the same way. I think I'm slightly less slutty for theory than you are, but like only mildly.
00:53:49
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:53:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
what What I have found is the thing that it entices me about doing what I do, what we do, is I asked like i have to be intrigued by a question. What happens if X?
00:54:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And the only way to do that is if I have a rough theory, but it's not fully fleshed out, because if I have a full theory, then I'm looking for X and Y happens. I'm frustrated.
00:54:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Why? Why did Y happen? That was unexpected. That's stupid. If I go in and I go like I'm aiming towards and then I do X and I go like, well, what happens if I do Y instead?
00:54:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Then it's a pleasant exploration and it's like an exciting thing.
00:54:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:54:32
Jack Thomas
Totally, totally.
00:54:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So the the theory is great as a general principle, as a guideline, as a leading question for me. But like when I flesh out things in CAD, it's I do it to the bare minimum because I know that I could continue to waste time in CAD and it's never going to look like the CAD model.
00:54:53
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
this is This is why I don't send like fully fleshed out drawings to clients. I send things in charcoal and in inconti because they're like they're ideas.
00:55:00
Jack Thomas
That's amazing.
00:55:02
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
you know There is going to be somewhere around here.
00:55:04
Jack Thomas
And if you lock yourself in, you give yourself no room, not only for mistakes, but also no room for evolution when something better than what you imagine might come up.
00:55:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
00:55:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:12
Jack Thomas
And my, my, this this is gonna, this is gonna fucking hurt some feelings, but you know, i don't mind hurting feelings.
00:55:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that.
00:55:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Do it.
00:55:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it.
00:55:18
Jack Thomas
So I'm just gonna throw this out.
00:55:20
Jack Thomas
People who are sluts for theory, But to the exclusion of actually going into practice are people who have agreed, agreed, right?
00:55:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:55:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
who post on Reddit. Agreed.
00:55:31
Jack Thomas
are but Are people, I just saw one outside my window.
00:55:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. Wow.
00:55:34
Jack Thomas
Oh my God. um people People who are sluts for theory to the exclusion of practice are people who have more anxiety than they have curiosity.
00:55:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
00:55:47
Jack Thomas
And you only have that dedicated curiosity when you love something, when you love the process, you love the material.
00:55:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:55:55
Jack Thomas
Like, I'm never going to fuffy with, like, electrical wiring shit, danger aside, right? But I'm going fuffy all day long with woodworking because I love the way it feels.
00:56:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a
00:56:07
Jack Thomas
I love, I love... I love the way everything smells. I love the light you know floating through sawdust. I love the sound of the saw. I love all of it. you know But like electricity, fuck it like i don't you know i don't give it. I don't give a shit about that. right So you you have to you have your curiosity has to overcome your anxiety because curiosity is what will keep you um ah will keep you whole when your anxiety keeps you trapped in theory.
00:56:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:56:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. I love it, Jack.
00:56:34
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Jack, that might be the most astute point that's been made on this podcast as a whole. um
00:56:40
Jack Thomas
You're buttering my biscuit right now.
00:56:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Can you ah can you um can you give some practical advice, if you have any, to the people who feel that level of anxiety to put their theories into practice?
00:56:49
Jack Thomas
and
00:56:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like, what would you tell them if you were just, just to encourage them, like sit down over a beer or over a coffee and encourage them to take risks and feel okay with that failure?
00:56:55
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
00:57:06
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
What, what would you say?
00:57:08
Jack Thomas
Yeah, here's here's the question I think that folks like this have to ask themselves. And I can't take credit for this. a A former therapist of mine asked me this question. And it shook me to the core.
00:57:24
Jack Thomas
She said, whenever you feel like you're avoiding doing something, whenever you're trapped in theory, instead of like letting yourself move forward into practice, that avoidance,
00:57:37
Jack Thomas
what does that behavior allow you to avoid? What feelings does that allow you to avoid? And any time that I'm having trouble starting something, working on something that's barely in progress, I ask myself, what is this behavior allowing me to avoid?
00:57:57
Jack Thomas
And the answer is usually coming to terms with the fact that I'm not as good as I want to be yet.
00:58:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
00:58:04
Jack Thomas
It's anxiety about being judged for being bad at something. But that just circles right back to this idea of like, we've become a society that's so about polish instead of practice, you know?
00:58:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Oh my god.
00:58:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Agreed 100%. hundred percent
00:58:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, Jack.
00:58:20
Jack Thomas
Like everybody fucks up.
00:58:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:58:22
Jack Thomas
We, and not not only should we be allowed to fuck up, we need to celebrate fucking up. Cause frankly, if you're a theory only person, it doesn't matter how many fucking books you read. And you guys can't see my bookshelf right now. i mean, I have hundreds of books, hundreds of books, and I love all of them.
00:58:37
Jack Thomas
But if you remain stuck in theory and you are not willing to fuffy, you are never going to be a master of the thing that you're a master of in your mind. It's not going happen.
00:58:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God, what an ending. Oh, Jack, I'm speechless.
00:58:54
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
She said, oh fuck out of here, Reddit.
00:58:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that That's a mic drop, Eric.
00:58:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Uh-huh.
00:58:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was a fucking mic drop.
00:59:01
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Uh-huh.
00:59:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, that was so well stated. That is amazing.
00:59:04
Jack Thomas
i'm If I, if I could, if I could drill that into like every, every person who's going into the trades, every person who's practicing a craft, every art student, if you learn that lesson,
00:59:16
Jack Thomas
That's the keystone to every other lesson. But if you don't learn that lesson, you can go to infinity fucking years of art school or whatever, and it's not going to do you any good because you're always going be playing it safe.
00:59:27
Jack Thomas
You're going be clinging to theory, playing it safe, and you're never going to get to that actual level of mastery where you can Fuffy.
00:59:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's so good.
00:59:35
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
the The only pushback I have on that is we live in a moment, and maybe maybe this is not unique to our moment in time. I'm not sure. But we do live in a moment where there are economic incentives to not master a craft because you can get paid a lot more money to be a critic of a thing.
01:00:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Or to be to be professionally bad at a thing on the internet than you can to be professionally bad at a thing?
01:00:00
Jack Thomas
which I hate.
01:00:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow, Eric.
01:00:05
Jack Thomas
Ooh, what does that mean?
01:00:09
Jack Thomas
Yeah, on the internet.
01:00:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Well, so there are a number of people that I know who are deeply who are successful on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, who are deeply afraid to advance in their craft because they're afraid of of leaving their audience behind.
01:00:32
Jack Thomas
oh Oh, because they feel like their audience.
01:00:34
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Because because because the the sales funnel is broad at the top.
01:00:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, and you're at the top of the funnel where it's, yeah, exactly.
01:00:35
Jack Thomas
Yeah,
01:00:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Right, right. And and so so they feel, and i'm not speaking I'm not trying to shit on anybody. I i don't think I'm speaking out of turn.
01:00:46
Jack Thomas
yeah.
01:00:46
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:00:46
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
A number of them have expressed me that they feel stuck in that that genre of kind of novice to beginner where they don't they they can't even get to intermediate because they're afraid that their audience isn't going to come along.
01:01:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Right. So they can't progress because the economics and incentive the economic incentives require them. Their business is built around not progressing.
01:01:10
Jack Thomas
Wow.
01:01:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Eric, interesting counterpoint.
01:01:12
Jack Thomas
God, that's a dynamic I have never even remotely considered, you know, like in academia, it's like, if you're not the best, you're nobody, you know, like, yeah if you're not at the height the practice, you're nobody.
01:01:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure, sure.
01:01:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Right.
01:01:23
Jack Thomas
And you can't, you're not allowed to fuck up ah visibly, you have to be, you know, always perfect. But wow, I mean, that's even having built a lot of courses for people, you know, that that still is shocking to me that people feel stuck that way.
01:01:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
and Well, and in how many of those courses that you've built are aimed at the beginner to to early intermediate?
01:01:41
Jack Thomas
Honestly, a good 70%. 70%.
01:01:42
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Overwhelming majority, right?
01:01:44
Jack Thomas
Yeah,
01:01:44
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:44
Jack Thomas
that's true
01:01:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, wow. good Good point, dude.
01:01:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So it's, ah i don't, I don't remember who said the the thing of like the hardest thing to do in the world is to convince a man that, um, the thing that pays his bills is morally reprehensible or something to that effect, right?
01:02:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like to convince somebody that what they're doing is wrong when their income depends upon it is borderline impossible.
01:02:06
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:02:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:02:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Eric, that is a killer point.
01:02:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Good times, huh?
01:02:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i have I have one last question and I'm going to ask it to Jack because as Jack, i'd I'd be curious to see um your your first reaction to this.
01:02:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With regards to selling and so selling your art. How does hu practice versus theory play into selling? And I'll tell you why I thought about this, especially for you.
01:02:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I watched a documentary on Jeff Koons, right?
01:02:45
Jack Thomas
oh
01:02:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. It is what it is.
01:02:49
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hold back your feelings.
01:02:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is what it is. Right. But My own opinion as not being in the art world, I'm not like some contemporary art critic. I'm sure you're far more leagues and leagues and leagues far more into it and know these people and whatever.
01:03:04
Jack Thomas
I'm certainly critical.
01:03:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So yeah I watched the documentary on Jeff Koons and I had, ah I was trying to understand why he's so good at selling his shit.
01:03:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It sells for these astronomical... I mean, he's the highest priced selling artist in the world, I think, or roughly. And I was trying to dissect, like, what is it that he's doing that allows him to sell his work for these astronomical prices when I don't think the work itself is moving me or is new or innovative?
01:03:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it was like, I would listen to him explain a piece to a customer, let's say. And he would talk through the theory of it. Well, the Gazing Ball series, which was nothing more than all the masterful paintings you're all familiar with. Let's take the, let's say the Mona Lisa, for example, because we all know that.
01:03:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
he would He would meticulously recreate the Mona Lisa, and he would put a gazing ball, which is like those shiny garden balls you see, like driving around, like a little...
01:04:06
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
A fucking disco ball.
01:04:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, like, like, right.
01:04:08
Jack Thomas
Basically.
01:04:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A shiny ball people put in their gardens and he would put ah gazing ball in front of it and it would sell for like astronomical dollars. And I'm like, huh?
01:04:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he would, he, then he started explaining, well, you see, and he w he was so smooth about it. He's like, well, you see the gazing ball gives, it reflects the painting to the viewer.
01:04:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
in a way that they can interact with it and see themselves as part of the painting, thus integrating them into the fabric of the art that they're seeing.
01:04:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I mean, as soon as you throw a thus in the explanation, you know?
01:04:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it, wait, wait, hot Eric, you see what I'm saying? Like he's basically theorizing about the intention of the work in a way that made the viewer feel important, feel cultured, feel smart, right?
01:04:46
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
01:04:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's what it is. He's fucking butter and buns.
01:04:58
Jack Thomas
You just nailed it. You just nailed it.
01:04:59
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:05:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, yeah fine. But to me, that was theory. He was basically making them a part of the theory. And that became part of his selling phenomena. So Jack, I'll turn it to you. You can react to all this. How to theory and practice, like, and the practice version of selling is like the object is so masterful, it sells itself. You don't even have to explain anything. A Windsor chair, it's so gorgeous. It just sells, right?
01:05:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Beautiful. So what's your reaction to this with selling?
01:05:28
Jack Thomas
I just wish everybody who's listening right now could see my face see all the facial expressions I just made when you were talking about Jeff Koons. I mean, i think I think that you really nailed it there. i obviously have a deep abiding hatred of Jeff Koons.
01:05:42
Jack Thomas
I'll just leave with that. um he's He's doing something that, like you said, makes people feel important. It makes people feel like they understand And the art world the art world gets a wrap, a legitimate wrap, for being this like exclusive world of smoke and mirrors and veils that the common man can't possibly enter, right?
01:06:07
Jack Thomas
Jeff Koons is making things that feel incredibly approachable to people, and they're also relying on the language of like modern consumerist pop culture, smooth things, shiny things, balloony things, round things.
01:06:22
Jack Thomas
it's It's a spectacle. His work is a spectacle. But even before it was a spectacle, if you rewind in time and look at the series he did that was like a knockoff of the Hummel figurines, you know, like those kitschy little objects, it's things that are inherent to pop culture that already have cultural value that he layers his own notoriety value on top of so it can sell for big, big bucks to people who have millions and millions of dollars.
01:06:34
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:06:51
Jack Thomas
I mean, he to me, he and Damien Hirst are in the same
01:06:54
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
of
01:06:54
Jack Thomas
You know, in the same kind of thing. And to anybody out there who's thinking that I might have a chip on my shoulder, like, no. I mean, would I love to be rich from making art? Maybe. Sure. Having more money could be nice, but not at the expense of making things like
Jeff Koons: Art Production and Misconceptions
01:07:09
Jack Thomas
that.
01:07:09
Jack Thomas
And Jeff Kuz doesn't actually make most of his own work. He has a massive production team that he pays, hey you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:14
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's a thing most people don't understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, Jack, Jack.
01:07:18
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
most those Those guys aren't making their own work.
01:07:19
Jack Thomas
No, no.
01:07:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Jack, can you layer, though, onto your review of like selling art, this idea of theory versus practice and mastery?
01:07:28
Jack Thomas
Yeah, I think it depends. So, and I wish this gets this gets like right back into that art versus craft discussion that, you know, that melded our hearts together, right?
01:07:37
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
01:07:38
Jack Thomas
Like, if you're selling something based
Art and Audience: Theory's Role
01:07:40
Jack Thomas
on theory, right? then you're most likely not selling it to the beautiful, wonderful majority lay people of the world, right? You're selling it to the ivory tower. When you sell theory, you are usually selling it to the ivory tower.
01:07:55
Jack Thomas
When you sell practice, you are selling it to the people who actually really matter, to the common people. And yeah, I said it, people who actually really matter. Exactly. Yeah.
01:08:05
Jack Thomas
Yeah. look what Look, we can get to a whole class war discussion later, right? But like... If you have to explain the art to someone, and I'm guilty. I'm guilty, you guys. I have, I, yeah.
01:08:15
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
sure I think we all are there's no way that we can do what we do and not the the explanation increases its value
01:08:18
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:08:21
Jack Thomas
Absolutely. And I have a 26-page master's thesis, you know, that's full of, full of theory. But what matters is the practice, period. Because again, I'll say it again.
01:08:32
Jack Thomas
Somebody can stab me through the internet if they want. But if you have ideas and you are not actually making the work, then the ideas don't matter and you're just an armchair philosopher. You're not an artist or a craftsperson.
01:08:45
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But if... So let's ah let's stick with Jeff Koons as the example. He is maybe by definition ah theoretician at this point because he's not...
01:08:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
like He comes up with ideas and then he hands that idea off to craftspeople and the craftspeople the craftspeop make the idea.
01:09:02
Jack Thomas
He's a marketer.
01:09:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And what he does... i don't know him. um I will never know him. ah He could be a lovely human being. I have no fucking idea. But... What he does is effectively have enough theory that he's talking 5% above the buyer's head to make them feel like they are in the ivory tower with them.
01:09:28
Jack Thomas
Nailed it.
01:09:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And that's that's, I think, an important thing. That's the distinction. is like
01:09:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:09:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
What we do is we make the thing ourselves so we have the practical understanding. And then the the theory definitely comes into play. The story comes into play for the client. There's no doubt about that.
01:09:44
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But we are articulating... our thoughts and our processes as to how we created this object in practice with the theory instead of just Jeff Koons being like, well, you see, the reason I'm smarter than you is X.
01:10:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, Eric, real, like lightning round style question. A Windsor chair, handmade, let's beautiful comb back, sells for $2,000. If you layer theory and the story and what you were going for on top of it, well, it should it sell for more with the theory on top?
01:10:14
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It depends on the name.
01:10:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I mean, you just...
01:10:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
does that Does that increase the value over just the practical?
01:10:24
Jack Thomas
Do we feel like theory only increases value for non-functional objects?
01:10:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Ooh, damn!
01:10:34
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
so
01:10:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, functional objects in and of themselves have a value.
01:10:35
Jack Thomas
Does...
01:10:36
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's a whole other fucking episode, Jack.
01:10:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, that's a like like a chair is where you sit your ass.
01:10:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
What are we doing?
01:10:38
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:10:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a value there. But if it's a chair where there's a whole theoretical component on top of it, would you pay more?
01:10:49
Jack Thomas
you You would have to tell me if you differentiate theory from history, because I personally do not care about the theory behind functional objects unless I can feel it when I walk up to it, right?
01:11:03
Jack Thomas
I care about how it's going to function, how beautiful I find it, and if it has historical provenance. And historical provenance matters to art objects that are not functional objects also.
01:11:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure,
01:11:13
Jack Thomas
But like... if somebody If somebody were to look at some of the work that I made for my master's thesis show, you can look at it and you can appreciate it as objects of work, as ah art and design.
01:11:24
Jack Thomas
But the theory is where it really sings. And I kind of hate that in retrospect.
01:11:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
sure, sure, sure.
01:11:30
Jack Thomas
Like if I could do it differently, I'd be like, oh man, I was like, I was banging on the door of the ivory tower.
01:11:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack.
01:11:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
sure share share share
01:11:37
Jack Thomas
Let me in, let me in. You know, like definitely wasn't there yet, right? Yeah.
01:11:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:11:41
Jack Thomas
So i don't I don't know if that answers your question. Like, i think that I think that theory for me is not as important when something has function and historical provenance and it just aesthetically speaks to me.
01:11:53
Jack Thomas
I don't need it to mean something.
01:11:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
See, I think it can be the icing on the cake.
01:11:54
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:11:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think it can actually elevate. Like the cake is the the piece. It's a cake.
01:12:00
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:12:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's the important part. But to me, it may be the theory could, in some cases, maybe not in others, but could elevate the the perceived value.
01:12:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
i I feel i I don't disagree with either of you, but I feel like this is just basic economic principles at play here.
01:12:10
Jack Thomas
Mm-hmm.
01:12:17
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Like if you created the Windsor chair and you develop the theory, then the theory adds value because you did the work of developing the theory.
01:12:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:27
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But the Windsor chair has been around for, what, 200 years?
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:12:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So at this point, the theory is common enough that it's not that like anybody can learn it.
01:12:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:12:37
Jack Thomas
Ooh, so are we are we saying that now, functionally in woodworking, unless someone designs their own piece, elements of art, principles of design at play, all of the craft skill at play, unless they design it themselves, it does not really have theory to it?
01:12:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
No, no, no, no.
01:12:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
01:12:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
i'm not saying that. i think
01:12:59
Jack Thomas
and Okay. Okay.
01:13:00
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think that there is a lot of theory in the craft, but I think the story component of the theory in craft, like there's no customer who's going to listen to me wax poetic about why I cut the fucking dovetails at X ratio versus another ratio. That
Craftsmanship and Storytelling
01:13:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
doesn't fucking matter. The thing that matters is are they pretty or not? Do they function or not?
01:13:20
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But if the object as a whole is a thing that I developed,
01:13:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, Eric, your Atlas table. There's a big theoretical component to that.
01:13:26
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:13:28
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Sure, sure. There's a big emotional weight to it, you know, and so then because of that, then the elements of theory is to why I did a double tapered lamination and had to pre steam and pre bend all of the laminates to make sure that they took the bend, then that all comes into play.
01:13:29
Jack Thomas
yeah
01:13:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:13:46
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But if I'm just making a coat rack, And then I say to a client, well, you see, I had to i had to double taper these laminations and pre-steam.
01:13:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see.
01:13:54
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Then they're like, now you're just justifying why it costs too fucking much. Get the fuck out of here.
01:13:58
Jack Thomas
You know what?
01:13:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
there's no There's no weight to it.
01:14:00
Jack Thomas
I can't believe i so I'm saying this because I almost never do this, but like, yeah, yeah, no, no, I, I, I very rarely, um, need to amend my answer or because my mind has been changed so rapidly, but this is one of those rare moments.
01:14:03
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Agree with me? You can say it.
01:14:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:14:16
Jack Thomas
So congratulations, Eric. ah
01:14:19
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ah Thank y'all. Thank y'all.
01:14:21
Jack Thomas
Um, I, you, you just, you just made me realize something. For both functional objects, objects of craft, especially especially woodworking, and also for objects of art, I actually don't give a fuck about the theory if it does not speak to me materially and aesthetically first.
01:14:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
01:14:40
Jack Thomas
like And I was thinking about, and I'm imagining this, so like if you're if you're listening, maybe close you know close your eyes right now and think about this. You're walking up to a painting in like the National Portrait Gallery or something, and And you walk up to this painting and you look at it for five seconds and you walk right past it because it didn't mean shit to you, right?
01:14:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
01:14:58
Jack Thomas
But you walk up to the next painting and something about it, something about the angle of a person's eyebrow or the way that the light is cast on their face, it just hits you, right? You walk up closer to it and you start reading that museum card.
01:15:12
Jack Thomas
You start trying to delve into the story of the thing.
01:15:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
01:15:15
Jack Thomas
Right? If you didn't care about that theory, you would walk right past it, right? Just like you did the first one. I think it's the same way for craft objects, for for woodworking objects.
01:15:25
Jack Thomas
If I'm, let's say, you know, if i'm if I'm in a gallery and I'm looking for nothing in particular, but just something beautiful that speaks to me, I'm going to walk past all the things that just don't speak to me aesthetically, don't speak to me materially.
01:15:39
Jack Thomas
But when I see something that speaks to me aesthetically and materially, like the Atlas table, right? I'm going to want to know everything about it, everything about it, and the person who made it and why they made it the way they made it and all of that.
01:15:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:15:50
Jack Thomas
So I think
Art's Impact vs. Theoretical Explanation
01:15:51
Jack Thomas
that the practice has to be an entry point for the theory. When we see the practice at work and we connect with it, then we go deeper with the theory as viewers, as owners.
01:16:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I agree with that. I think the, the.
01:16:13
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
The practice is the application of the theory. It's the culmination of the theory. Right. And then then it becomes the vehicle for the viewer to understand your theory.
01:16:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
01:16:23
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:16:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Jack, sorry, with what you just said, the practical made you want to learn more about the theory, but the practical wouldn't be outstanding if it didn't start with theory.
01:16:30
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:16:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I'm not sure if we're in a little bit of a chicken or an egg, right?
01:16:34
Jack Thomas
o Ooh. Maybe. Mm-hmm.
01:16:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because the the Atlas table wouldn't be so compelling. And so provocative without your head being in the right place to begin.
01:16:46
Jack Thomas
listen
01:16:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, what am I going for? What's, what's the message? What am I trying to do? So it starts with theory. It manifested into a provocative object that then begged the, the, the learn, the viewer to learn more. There must be something here that I'm interested.
01:17:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like there's gotta be something here.
01:17:04
Jack Thomas
That's so good. It's like it's like a ah practice sandwich, right? There's theory on both sides of it.
01:17:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is a practice sandwich.
01:17:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Practice sandwich.
01:17:10
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:17:12
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So is this this makes me wonder, like, I've experienced this and I feel like you two are both sluttier for theory than I am.
01:17:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right?
01:17:25
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So have you have you ever have you ever seen an object, a painting, a piece of craft, whatever it is, and and it hits you, it moves you, right?
01:17:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Confirmed.
01:17:27
Jack Thomas
You know it.
01:17:36
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
It's even my focus.
01:17:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
sorry.
01:17:37
Jack Thomas
I'm so sorry.
01:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack and I were making goo goo eyes. It's like theory sluts through the camera. You're going to have to say that all again.
01:17:48
Jack Thomas
I'm
01:17:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm sorry.
01:17:51
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
this is This is why I can't host this podcast.
01:17:52
Jack Thomas
so sorry. I'm so sorry.
01:17:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
01:17:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm listening.
01:17:56
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
You don't have to apologize, Jack.
01:17:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Say it again. Say it again.
01:17:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
ah
01:17:58
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
No, no, no, don't no, no so So, have you, have you ever walked up to a piece and been moved by it and, and been struck and want to learn more about it?
01:17:59
Jack Thomas
Theory. theory
01:18:11
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And then when you go to whatever, read the museum card, talk to the artist, talk in, in you are profoundly disappointed by the lack of theory.
01:18:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, usually more times that.
01:18:22
Jack Thomas
Oh my God.
01:18:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Right, right.
01:18:23
Jack Thomas
Yes.
01:18:24
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And now, now, now I want to separate the theory from charisma because those could be different things, right?
01:18:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:18:31
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
they They could have good, well, they could have good theory and then just not articulate it well.
01:18:31
Jack Thomas
What do you mean from charisma?
01:18:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. A boring orator.
01:18:36
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And so, yeah, yeah.
01:18:36
Jack Thomas
Oh, mm-hmm.
01:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:18:37
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And you're just kind of disappointed by that.
01:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:18:40
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
But the idea of the thing could stand on its own. But sometimes, yeah. They're just like, i don't know, it's just, it's just the table I made. Like it just worked.
01:18:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:18:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And you're like, why?
01:18:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
01:18:51
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And they're like, I don't know, like, it just works.
01:18:53
Jack Thomas
that disappoints That disappoints me for sure.
01:18:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's happened
01:18:55
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's hugely disappointing.
01:18:56
Jack Thomas
um Yeah. And i think I think the important thing to remember about theory, whether it's in in art, whether it's in craft, is that sometimes people are not going to give a fuck about it.
01:18:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
many times.
01:19:08
Jack Thomas
And you have to be okay with that because people have their own interpretations of things, their own ideas about what happens. So when I was 12 years old, I got into a shit ton of trouble because Because I stayed at the Hunter Museum of American Art in Chattanooga, Tennessee after it closed.
01:19:29
Jack Thomas
I didn't mean to. It was an accident.
01:19:30
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
You went full night at the museum?
01:19:32
Jack Thomas
I wish, man. That movie wasn't out yet.
01:19:33
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Ha ha ha ha
01:19:34
Jack Thomas
But yeah. um no No, luckily they came and found me and I live close by. you know and they They got me home.
01:19:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
chat Jack, you're a museum slut.
01:19:41
Jack Thomas
um I am a museum slut. That's been confirmed for years. Yeah. But here's here's why. And and it was a it was a a monumental example of the disappointment of of theory.
01:19:54
Jack Thomas
I became so entranced as 12-year-old In a massive painting titled Il Mostro. It was this huge oil and encaustic painting.
01:20:06
Jack Thomas
And to me, as a 12 year old, standing at the end of like a 15 foot long hallway looking at this thing, in my mind, in my young mind, it's still like 25 feet by 12. by you know, 10 feet. It wasn't, it wasn't quite that big, just in my kid mind.
01:20:21
Jack Thomas
Looking at it, all it is, it's it's framed, it's like two human eyes framed very, very tightly in a long sort of horizontal portrait format. And all you can see is the eyes.
01:20:33
Jack Thomas
And the way that they had curated it, you saw it singularly hanging on this wall with nothing around it as soon as you came around this corner. So it was like a surprise.
01:20:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
01:20:42
Jack Thomas
You encountered it and the the rest of the room was completely empty. And i did not believe in God as a 12-year-old. But when I turned that corner and I saw that, I felt like I was looking at the face of God.
01:20:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Hmm.
01:20:57
Jack Thomas
And I stood there and I stared at it for so long, for so long. And I didn't realize that my class had left me behind. And it was like closing time. And i know, I know.
01:21:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
01:21:10
Jack Thomas
And suddenly like all the lights went out and I was like, oh my God, no. You know, and I moved and then like some alarm went off and somebody started yelling. It was very scary. But anyway, so I go up to the painting and I'm like, I have to know, i have to know who made this, who did this.
01:21:26
Jack Thomas
And the painting titled Il Mostro, the explanation on the museum card, it was ah fucking portrait of Napoleon Bonaparte.
01:21:37
Jack Thomas
I wish I had never looked at that fucking card.
01:21:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
01:21:45
Jack Thomas
Because it ruined the myth. the theory The theory ruined the practice.
01:21:47
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Oh, sure. Sure, sure.
01:21:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:21:49
Jack Thomas
It ruined the myth for me.
01:21:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, wow, Jack.
01:21:53
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Man, love.
01:21:53
Jack Thomas
Yeah. Sometimes you don't want to know.
01:21:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I loved Paul's face when you said the eyes of God, like he had a visceral. I'm a scientist reaction right there.
01:22:04
Jack Thomas
I know. I know.
01:22:05
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah.
01:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And while she was telling this story, I was Googling Il Mostro Chattanooga. I was like, I got to see this.
01:22:11
Jack Thomas
Yeah. You're going to be so fucking underwhelmed when you see it because it was seeing it in person, like the scale of it and the solitude.
01:22:19
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
in the context like they they curated it so cleverly
01:22:20
Jack Thomas
Exactly. yet Yeah, exactly. it was It just struck you. And then even when you got up close to it, before you read the museum card, you could see every little brush of paint.
01:22:30
Jack Thomas
There were like brush hairs, like sable brush hairs stuck in the oil paint. And you could see even the artist's fingerprints in there in a couple of places.
01:22:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
01:22:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
01:22:38
Jack Thomas
And oh, was fucking amazing. And then I read that goddamn museum card and I wish I had never done it.
01:22:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack, you are a very insightful 12 year old. Jesus Christ.
01:22:48
Jack Thomas
Yeah, that was pretty okay.
01:22:48
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mmm, man.
01:22:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um All right. Let's, ah this has been ah just a phenomenal discussion as usual, Jack, you always bring it. Goddamn Eric.
01:22:58
Jack Thomas
Oh, thank you guys.
01:22:59
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
This has been a real slut sandwich of
01:22:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is,
01:22:59
Jack Thomas
So great to be here.
Personal Reflections on Art and Craft
01:23:01
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
an episode.
01:23:01
Jack Thomas
Slut sandwich.
01:23:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
slut So let's let's let's let's each let's each give our conclusion because they may not be the same. I don't want to conclude for all of us the same thing.
01:23:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So each of us gets like a one or two sentence conclusion about today's episode. Who would like to go first?
01:23:25
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Paul, you go first because you don't have an answer.
01:23:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. um For me, and from everything I've lived, the best outcomes are realized with a balance of theory and practice.
01:23:50
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
That's a good... That feels right. That feels genuine for you
01:23:57
Jack Thomas
I would say that it's it's not a bad thing to embrace theory first, but the second you start to engage with theory, you need to almost set a timer for yourself.
01:24:09
Jack Thomas
so that you know when, no matter what, no matter how afraid you're feeling, no matter how anxious you're feeling, that it's fucking time to move into practice. And you can always reassess that theory on the back end. You can have a delicious little theory sandwich, but you have to set yourself a deadline for moving into practice without fear, without anxiety.
01:24:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Jack, I understand why you say that. Now hearing your story, I totally get where you're coming from.
01:24:35
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:24:41
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
I think if there is one thing that I've learned in my 37 years on this big blue ball is that you have to do the work because nobody's going to do the work for you.
01:24:57
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
So theory is great.
01:25:02
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
but nobody's going to put it into practice for you. Just get out there and do the fucking thing.
01:25:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So good, Eric. That is you. That's authentically Eric Curtis.
01:25:08
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Just do the fucking thing.
01:25:10
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:25:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You guys, great episode. Beautiful job, all of you. Wonderful.
01:25:16
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Round the horn. Good episode.
01:25:17
Jack Thomas
whoop
01:25:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Well, we obviously didn't do a second segment because
01:25:22
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Yeah. What
After Show Teaser
01:25:23
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
are we, what are we doing? What are we doing in the after show?
01:25:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we're at an hour and 25 minutes.
01:25:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jack, you had a question for us about the time machine. Why don't you read your question and tell the listeners what they will what we'll cover in the after show. And by the way, if you want to listen to the after show, all you have to do to see the video feed and get the after show is subscribe to our Patreon and the links in the bio.
01:25:45
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
And we appreciate and love you guys.
01:25:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Jack.
01:25:47
Jack Thomas
And you you can't see my facial expressions if you don't get the video feed. So you obviously...
01:25:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
or me or me giving Eric the finger
01:25:54
Jack Thomas
good. and So good. um Yes. So the ah the after show will ah you know include a ah whispers of my my midlife crisis, just for anyone who's interested. interested So um so i i sent this I sent this message to Paul and Eric the other day. I said, guys, random question.
01:26:13
Jack Thomas
Let's pretend for a moment that you have a time machine. You can go back in time to the moment you first started really pursuing woodworking as more than a hobby, but you still have all the knowledge of the industry and the world that you do today, right now.
01:26:31
Jack Thomas
What would your future-informed goals and priorities and desires for your professional life be, and why? And would you do anything differently so that you might have ended up in a different professional situation than you are right now?
01:26:48
Jack Thomas
I cannot wait to hear the answers to this. And guys, I got to tell you, I'm banking on it solving my existential crisis.
01:26:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jack.
01:26:55
Jack Thomas
So no pressure, no pressure.
01:26:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, you might want to bank on something else, girl.
01:27:02
Jack Thomas
i don't i got no more bank to go around. It's on you guys.
01:27:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah ah Jack, with that, ah excellent thank you for joining us for this discussion.
01:27:09
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Thanks, Jack.
01:27:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it was awesome.
01:27:10
Jack Thomas
Oh, thank you guys for having me.
01:27:10
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Appreciate you.
01:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I hope you all enjoyed this i this. And I hope this helps you reflect on your own, especially, Jack, with you what you said is, when I feel hesitant to turn from thinking about something into doing it, what is that telling me about me?
01:27:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That is super.
01:27:29
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mmm.
01:27:29
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:27:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm going to I'll be thinking about that all week because I know when I'm stalling and now I have to figure out
01:27:33
Jack Thomas
Yeah.
01:27:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what that's really saying about myself.
01:27:36
Jack Thomas
Yep.
01:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's excellent.
01:27:38
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Mm-hmm.
01:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So for all the listeners, I encourage you to like, think about that. And also think about where on that spectrum of theory to practice you are. If you get in the shop and you just start making something and you spin out and you're like, what the fuck I doing?
01:27:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Perhaps you didn't think it through enough in the beginning. Vice versa. If all you do is sit on your couch thinking about what you should make, why aren't you making it? Great discussion, y'all. And we'll see you in the after show.
01:28:02
Pract-EEEEE-tioner
Okay, bye.
01:28:03
Jack Thomas
Bye.