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Episode 47 - How Social Media Rewires Your Brain & How to Rewire It Back (w/ Dr. Sherry Pagoto)
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Every post, every like, every notification — it’s all built to manipulate our brain chemistry, often without notice. In this episode, Paul and Erik team up with psychologist Dr. Sherry Pagoto to reveal the brain chemistry behind social media — the dopamine hits that keep you hooked, the algorithms that play you, and the rare moments that still make us feel genuinely connected as human. We explore how the platforms learned to hijack our emotions, and what it actually takes for us to take back control with BALANCE. Equal parts science, confession, and reality check — this episode may change the way you see social media.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Social Media Disappointment
00:00:01
Speaker
We've all been there. You post your video after getting the editing, music, and description just right. And then... Crickets. and Your post gets a fraction of the engagement you were expecting.
00:00:20
Speaker
So in your post, disappointment, doom scrolling, you come across someone else's post that doesn't seem half as impressive as yours. And it's got a ton of engagement.
00:00:32
Speaker
What is going on? But then there's a post that you make that pulls landslide of engagement. Likes galore. Comments flowing from with compliments.
00:00:43
Speaker
Amazing. Love it. Wow. And you get that little taste of excitement, that little dopamine hit. The more social media engagement you get, the more you want. And around and around we go.
00:00:55
Speaker
But for what?
Introducing the Hosts and Guest
00:00:57
Speaker
We're going to dissect this very question on today's episode of Woodworking is Bullshit.
00:01:11
Speaker
to come Yep.
00:01:18
Speaker
ah Come one, come all to another episode of your favorite woodworking, not woodworking podcast. Woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night.
00:01:29
Speaker
And in the chair across the screen from me is Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker, content creator. And in the guest chair tonight is none other than Dr. Sherry Pagato, esteemed research psychologist.
00:01:49
Speaker
ah Well... how How would you describe yourself? I am a social media
Dr. Sherry Pagato's Research on Social Media
00:01:55
Speaker
researcher. I am at the University of Connecticut, and I'm the director of the UConn Center for M Health and Social Media. So I'm for here for things all social media. of they So i remember remember remember when you were just talking about crickets after a post. That's what that intro felt like. I just got crickets on my intro. That's all right. It was like, I don't know.
00:02:14
Speaker
I've known you for 20 years. I don't know what you Do too. I've known Sherry since I've been like in my 20s. And it was like, I don't know, I think you're a scientist.
00:02:26
Speaker
How do I introduce? Oh my God. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. No, um now it's all good. But ah we wanted to have Sherry on this episode because Sherry is a what I would consider a dual threat. She has a very active, serious research laboratory at UConn.
00:02:47
Speaker
And her entire career is doing psychological research on yeah brain chemistry and behaviors. And we thought today's topic would be perfect because not only does she have that expertise, but Sherry also comes understanding social media and interrogating social media in her research in a way that...
Social Media's Impact on Self-Identity
00:03:07
Speaker
is relatable. I think so many scientists are not relatable to the lay public, but I think Sherry is very front facing with her, her research and she can help us dissect today's topic. So I don't know what you're talking about. Most of the scientists I know are so normal and not at all weird.
00:03:28
Speaker
but eric Well, I'm a scientist slash social media junkie. So I got a little bit of both sides there. Okay. Yeah. So let's let's unwrap it. Let's break it down. So tonight we're going to talk about social media. But when I say social media, what that means is like, you know, there's all these great parts to it. It connects us. It inspires us. It gives us a platform to share our opinions, our ideas, our views.
00:03:53
Speaker
And we became friends. Exactly. Like, there's no doubt how great social media can be. But beneath the likes and the shares and the endless scrolling lies, i think, a subtle danger, and that is the risk of losing our sense of self and who we are.
00:04:10
Speaker
Is it subtle? you say like I think it's pretty explicit. in know Yeah, it's not that subtle. And so, you know, to to to start to interrogate this balance between the reward and the risk of social media, like we have a big show for you tonight, but I would just say, like, are you living authentically when you are on social media or are you just performing?
00:04:38
Speaker
And this this reaches all of us. This touches every single one of us. It doesn't matter if you're a content creator or you're a social media consumer and you're just browsing Facebook to see what your friends are up to or you hope to grow a business. Like you're hoping to engage people in what you're doing and maybe grow a business from scratch ah you know on Instagram or whatever.
00:04:59
Speaker
This topic about authenticity, the dangers of social media, the positives of social media, this touches all of us. So, you know, It is not some niche subject that only applies to some of us.
Human Connection and Social Media
00:05:11
Speaker
So I guess we could start with, you know, I asked Sherry the other day, we were kind of ideating together. yeah And I asked you, I said, why are we on social media? Let's start with like the simplest, almost stupid question.
00:05:25
Speaker
Yeah. So we are as humans, as primates, a very social species. So I think when social media came along, that That's why it sort of took off is because we have we're wired to interact with other people. We're wired to create connections with other people. Social media allowed us to do this with much bigger networks.
00:05:47
Speaker
We could ah engage in different ways than we were able to engage before. we Geographical boundaries don't matter. And so it sort of reinvented social engagement.
00:05:59
Speaker
And so I think that's why it got so popular so very fast. And I also think that's probably why it's not going to be going away anytime soon. So in terms of this idea that we're wired for social engagement,
00:06:11
Speaker
ah interactions. So from a kind of psychological perspective, the way that I would put that is that we're wired for what's called social reinforcement. So we are a communal species in that it benefits our survival to have social connections. So when we're part of a group, we get things like what kind of things do we get from being part of a group, a family, as a community? What sort of what do you get from that? Safety.
00:06:37
Speaker
Food safety. We had this conversation at the end of last episode about the apocalypse and what we would bring to it. And the first thing was basically just building social connections because you can't do everything yourself. Absolutely. So we get, you like you were saying, food, we get their safety in numbers.
00:06:52
Speaker
When we connect with other people, we have opportunities for mating, um all the things that sort of, you know, motivate humans. That's why I'm on Instagram. That's why, you know, slide into the DM.
00:07:06
Speaker
So even way before social media, as as a species, humans and other primates too are a social species. we We get things from being social. We also learn.
00:07:16
Speaker
Yeah. so when we watch other people we learn things so we don't have to try everything to find out what's risky and what's nott we learn from each other so there's social learning there's all kinds of psychological theories about social learning so ah we are drawn to social opportunities opportunities to connect socially So so it's ah so that makes it a good thing. And social media has allowed us to do that. So ah all of you listening out there probably have the experience of you go on social media, you're connecting with people maybe you would have otherwise lost touch with maybe old friends from back in the day, family members that you don't see anymore.
00:07:53
Speaker
So it's widened our social circles. and And so there's so some good to that for sure. Well, and in this realistically, whatever platform people are watching and or listening to this episode on, this is a social platform.
00:08:07
Speaker
So, you know, hopefully i I hope, Paul, I know you hope that we're providing some, you know, level of insight and information and things that people can use and apply to their their own life. So that in and of itself, not to pat ourselves on the back too hard, is one of the positive aspects of social media,
Positive Impacts of Social Media
00:08:23
Speaker
you know? Well, I think one of the reasons why podcasts like this have become so popular is because it's sort of longer form social engagement. You know, you're, you're, it's conversational. It's the type of social engagement we're used to, as opposed to maybe newspapers, which are, you know, you're reading, you're consuming things, but you're not interacting. You're not hearing conversations.
00:08:44
Speaker
So I do think like social media and how, how it's evolved into the podcast and other forms are, are really getting at sort of what we're craving as humans, which is to connect with other people.
00:08:55
Speaker
You know, I was just looking for, um Eric, a comment that we received just the other day. i was wondering what you were looking for. I was like, I've never seen this motherfucker so distracted. God, no, no. I'm sorry. I was distracted because I was looking for this comment. I just read this yesterday. Someone left this about the podcast. And this isn't about tooting our own horn, but it's really about how social media can help us.
00:09:19
Speaker
And this, this person said, this is Ivo Sarah on, uh, on YouTube podcast. Less is, he said, I really need to let this out. I'm not a social network guy. I love YouTube because I've learned my craft of woodworking essentially with YouTube. So I'm not a, and I'm not a, uh, Patreon person and my interactions are as basic as it gets.
00:09:39
Speaker
I subscribe and I like, and that's it. But I want you guys to know that what you do in this channel is absolutely precious to me. It's like having a radio station that was made for us.
00:09:50
Speaker
I love it so much that sometimes I don't listen to the entire episode so that I still have something to hear later. That's how much I love woodworking is bullshit. So I just hope you guys keep loving doing this as much as I'm sure we all love listening. Thank you. And I will always fall short with words to express how much I appreciate this channel.
00:10:09
Speaker
All the luck and happiness. I just got goosebumps. I know. but You know, that kind of feedback tells me like that our decision to record this as opposed to just having these conversations privately does impact people and look that's the value of social media it's it's like you feel so good to know that someone else enjoys it like that it's so it's also really fascinating that somebody can look past uh the copious amounts of dick jokes that we make to actually you know take value out of these conversations i i have made none
00:10:44
Speaker
Paul's glaring his name. um I will say also without, without exaggeration that Instagram has changed my life. Oh, for Without a doubt. and I wouldn't know you.
00:10:55
Speaker
We wouldn't yeah have this podcast. Yeah. I wouldn't have all my maker friends. I wouldn't be part of all of that without social media.
Dopamine vs. Oxytocin in Social Interactions
00:11:03
Speaker
I wouldn't have Copper Pig. Who knows what I'd be doing without social media?
00:11:08
Speaker
It has changed. You'd be drunk down in an alley gutter somewhere, man. Telling dick jokes. Yes, exactly. So, you know, I think all of us feel how good social media can be.
00:11:22
Speaker
But Cher, as you and I have been talking about, that doesn't come free and clear. Like there's brain chemistry that accompanies, like there's brain chemistry concerns that accompany social media, right?
00:11:34
Speaker
Absolutely. So what you describe, though, of how your social media experiences connected you to Eric and you guys became friends and you like built this community and the woodworking sphere.
00:11:47
Speaker
That's great because that's it it's leading it's taking you from you know likes and comments to actually real world connections that are much richer than that. So I guess one of the downsides of social media is that The typical type of engagement, likes, comments, that sort of thing, is what I call kind of social breadcrumbs.
00:12:09
Speaker
It's... it's it's a It's a little dopamine hit, like the example I did in the open of you know, you're you're looking for you're waiting for the likes and the comments and they're from strangers and that sort of thing. um Those are kind of social breadcrumbs in that they they give us like a little taste of connection, but they don't really fully satisfy our need for human connection.
00:12:33
Speaker
Because our need for human connection leads to those outcomes we talked about, you know, like ah leading us to resources, protecting our survival. um We're learning things and things like that. So we're not and necessarily in most of our social media activities deeply bonding.
00:12:49
Speaker
yeah And so when we look at how we feel, so think about this. The last thing you posted and you started to get likes. Mm-hmm. What's happening in your brain is a dopamine hit.
00:13:01
Speaker
That's a dopamine hit. You're like, ah, somebody liked me. You know, it's a little tiny breadcrumb. It feels good, but kind of for a second. And they start to add up, but it's not changing your life, right? That post, you know, by two days from now, you're kind of over it, right?
00:13:16
Speaker
But what we crave social connection wise is something very deeper than that. um are The type of social connections that really are good for us and that make us feel good are typical connections that would create oxytocin. So this is another um piece of our great brain chemistry is when we're connecting in ways that that are in person that involve sharing how we're feeling and our deep, like our thoughts about things, or we're sharing experiences and activities or connecting in deeper ways that actually creates bonding through the hormone oxytocin and oxytocin. Okay. I was going to ask you if you could explain to the lay folk among us, the difference between dopamine and oxytocin.
00:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, so dopamine is a neurotransmitter, and it's a great one because it does make us feel good. And it's a neurotransmitter that you also feel during things like if when you're eating something yummy.
00:14:17
Speaker
So if we just like had a Snicker bar right now, um during SEX, if we take drugs, things like that. So it's kind of that quick hit of pleasure and joy, but it's not long-lasting.
00:14:30
Speaker
Yeah. Whereas oxytocin comes from ah a deep, long hug or cuddling on the couch or confiding in a friend or sitting around the campfire and just talking about life.
From Social Media to Real Relationships
00:14:42
Speaker
That's bonding. That's true bonding. When someone just hits a like button, or makes a comment, amazing, you know, on your post, you're not actually creating a human bond, but the activities that create human bonding produce oxytocin. So there's another chemical in our brain that actually makes us feel closer to another human being.
00:15:04
Speaker
It can be facilitated by something as simple as a hug. it's It's a chemically different relationship. Very different. That's interesting. Yes. And so the way oxytocin works too is it shuts down cortisol. Cortisol is a stress hormone. So whenever you're stressed out, your cortisol is off the charts.
00:15:25
Speaker
Yeah. And it puts you in fight or flight it and it facilitates the whole fight or flight mechanism of your body. And oxytocin, the reason why we feel better when we get a hug, when we confide in someone, when we're doing something fun with a friend is because oxytocin is shutting down our stress and that's making us feel better. And it actually is good for your health because to the extent that you're quelling your stress,
00:15:54
Speaker
It's improving your mental health. It's improving your physical health because stress like wreaks have a havoc on like both mental and physical health. So to give an example of these two different, like dopamine-centric versus oxytocin-centric, I guess I would say when you have a a good social media post or like you feel like, oh, everyone's interested in my content, like how long does that make you feel good for?
00:16:18
Speaker
Versus you have a night out with your best friend. And you go out to dinner and you talk over dinner for like two hours and you like you bond and you give them that huge hug at the end of the night. Right.
00:16:31
Speaker
And you had drinks and you it's and then you're walking home. And like to me, the sense of well-being of the second in-person real interaction is so much longer lasting and so much more powerful than anything like these little things.
00:16:46
Speaker
social media dopamine hits. Yeah, sure i mean yeah they're they're fundamentally different relationships.
Dunbar's Number and Social Media
00:16:52
Speaker
you know They are. I can I can go spend this is this is part of the reason why I go to the conferences or go to like, you know, workbench or not workbench. Con maker campus coming up and like it's exhausting by the end of those four days. I'm toast. But like that's that's the reason you go is to spend time around friends.
00:17:08
Speaker
But these are also friendships again. Like this is this is kind of the weird sort of nature of it. yeah Every single one of them. every single one of them and so i'm wondering like we're not we're not really born into a system right now that is um that that takes advantage of those social networks like that are you know the the people around you when you're born your familial uh relationships is one thing but like society is formed in a way right now where like you can't
00:17:40
Speaker
I mean, Paul is one of one, so he can walk across the fucking street and ask his neighbor to teach him woodworking. And he'll be like, yeah, that's fine. Most of us can't do that. Like, that's not how the world works anymore. So is social media um and I might be getting out ahead of you guys or what you want to talk about.
00:17:55
Speaker
Is it like a seedling for that? Is it a place to germinate some of those relationships? I was just thinking that. It can be. It can It's like a, this is like a continuum where the social media connects you with so many people and you can, you have access to them, but then you move into the second phase, which is a more realistic relationship with them one-on-one.
00:18:18
Speaker
But the question is also like, how much is that happening with our social media activities? So of all the time you spend scrolling, how much is that leading to relationships that are producing more bonding? Okay.
00:18:30
Speaker
I would say for me, it's incredibly productive. That's great. Well, again, you're one of one, dude. I spend most of my time. I don't scroll much anymore. yeah i spend most of my time talking with friends yeah in the direct messages.
00:18:47
Speaker
How about you?
00:18:49
Speaker
I mean, the relationships that do... I mean, I guess we're not in a dissimilar spot. The majority of the relationships... Well, I think so. You're just shitting on me a second ago. Get out of here. I shit on you all the time.
00:19:06
Speaker
The relationships that have turned into close friendships are are amazing and wonderful. And I think those continue to happen. But it's a...
00:19:17
Speaker
like friendships even before social media, i think often were a repetition game, you know, like ah ah you're you're introduced to a person. Oh, this this person's my buddy. Then you spend some more time with them. Oh, you know, this guy might be all right. And then over by three years down the road, you're like, yeah, we spent every fucking Sunday together watching football and drinking too many beers.
00:19:37
Speaker
And that's how friendship develops is it takes repetitive um exposure, you know? um And I think that's still happening on social media, though I am more guarded with my time on it because there's only so many hours in a day I have. And and I already have a lot of friends that I love dearly. I want to give them the time, you know? Well, and that kind of gets to when you think of all the people, your your social media followers, your social media connections, the the percent of them that you're actually engaging with in rich, like bonding ways is great.
00:20:13
Speaker
probably pretty small. And one of the reasons for that is like our brains can only process so many social connections. And they've actually done research on this. There's something called Dunbar's number.
00:20:25
Speaker
And it's this number of the maximum number of social connections you can have And actually, like, from a cognitive brain perspective. Don't tell Eric. Eric? Yeah.
00:20:37
Speaker
What do you think the number is? What's the most social connection you can have before it's too much? like Okay, close social connections? Well, yeah, define it. the no Yeah, yeah, yeah. The number of, like, relationships or connections. Relationships with people. So friends.
00:20:51
Speaker
ah So, yeah, it just... Like close friends. ah It would be... it Well, what's an acquaintance? Well, is it someone who you would have over to your house and have dinner with? Is it that close? That's ah that's a good barometer.
00:21:06
Speaker
Yeah. Somebody that you would talk on the phone if they were far away. Okay. Someone that you would do more than just like comment. How many do think that you're capable supporting? It's lower than we think.
00:21:17
Speaker
im I'm going to say... 22. 22.
00:21:22
Speaker
twenty two um Okay. Well, it's actually, there's debate. So Dunbar's number is actually
00:21:35
Speaker
Okay. All right. So this is where it's some the amount of people that I would actually talk to on the phone is like four. so Yeah. Well, if you got like phone. It's just you're spunted.
00:21:50
Speaker
Eric needs friends, you guys. one of but No, I have too many. That's why i don't talk him the phone. He's many friends. More is too many. So, but I mean, there's, there's controversy about it too, around ah like, cause some other scientists argue that it is smaller. So to Eric's point, he's not wrong.
00:22:08
Speaker
There's, so there's some controversy about it. I guess where that number is I'm thinking about like how many people would I invite to stay in my house and like stay up into the night talking about life with.
00:22:21
Speaker
Well, I think that would be a closer bond. So when you think of Dunbar's number, think about who would be at the family reunion. Who are all the friends that you think I'm going to a family reunion?
00:22:33
Speaker
I don't need to see my brother cousin. Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah.
00:22:39
Speaker
This is evolving. Yeah, each this is this is becoming yet another therapy session. All right. Wait, though, since you told me one hundred and fifty is Dunbar's number, yeah i have been thinking nonstop about that. And I've been counting like the number of like friends I have who I would like that you would talk to. I mean, you've been ranking us.
00:23:01
Speaker
I need know where I fall on the ranks. number one But here's the thing. You're always my number one. Okay. Okay. So here's the thing about the 150. If you think about how many friends you have on Facebook, Instagram, any platform, it's way more than 150.
Adapting to Instagram Changes
00:23:18
Speaker
Oh, sure. So we're juggling oh yeah a group of ties, many of which are probably very loose ties. Facebook's a thousand right off the bat. Right. So these are people that if it wasn't for Facebook or whatever platform we're talking about, there would be no connection with. But so, but yeah, on i'm I'm going to push back on that a little bit, ah because i think if we think like before I was using ah Instagram as a as a business and investing in it, I think I had maybe, you know, three to four hundred followers on Instagram.
00:23:50
Speaker
Right. Which is more than the Dunbar number. yeah But there are so many people, let's take it back 50 years. You are born in Poughkeepsie, you grow up in Poughkeepsie, you open a wood shop in Poughkeepsie, you live your life in Poughkeepsie, you graduated high school with, you know, 300 people.
00:24:07
Speaker
And you might see those people at the coffee shop and say like, Hey, Kimberly, how you doing? Like, how's, i's like how's, how's, how's Johnny? Yeah. And that is effectively like that three minute interaction at 8 a.m. on a Tuesday with person that you used to know feels like what Instagram was 10 years ago or 15 years ago of just like the the observing of like, hey, it's Matthew's birthday today. hey Happy birthday, buddy.
00:24:32
Speaker
You know, but it doesn't it doesn't take a lot of social expenditure. But I think those interactions still happened just in a different way. We don't you know, you're not running into those people who live in Ohio.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah. right Eric, the question, how you said Instagram used to be more of a neighborhood feel. Part of me wonders if that's how Instagram has changed over time. And the other part of me wonders whether that's how you have changed over time. You've gone from a few hundred followers to a few hundred thousand followers.
00:25:03
Speaker
So that by definition has to change the way you interact with people. it It certainly does. And I think I think it's both. um But speaking just for myself, it absolutely changes the way I interact with people, because there's a lot of people who I can.
00:25:19
Speaker
who will like send me a DM, ah send me an email, sometimes respond to a YouTube video or a post on Instagram and say something really nice. Talk about how they, you know, see X or Y in my work and it inspires them. And I'm i like genuinely grateful that they're taking that from my work.
00:25:38
Speaker
But I also don't have enough hours in the day or emotional expenditure to respond to everybody. So it becomes in what sucks about it is like I can see myself 15 years ago, 20 years ago when I was starting out in that interaction and like, you know, writing an email to somebody I looked up to hoping for a response and not getting one and being disappointed.
00:26:01
Speaker
Yeah. But also if I spent. my time responding to everybody who sent me a DM or an email or responded to every YouTube comment, I literally wouldn't be able to do my job.
00:26:13
Speaker
And also I wouldn't have any other social interactions. Well, I'm guessing a lot of those people are total strangers, right? yeah Yeah. you don't know their names. Eight percent of them.
00:26:24
Speaker
Yeah. and so And so that's kind of the but sort of disparity between, you know, social media is creating these very large networks. That's more than we can handle versus like before social media, our networks were smaller and the connections were richer.
00:26:41
Speaker
Although i I like what you said about using social media as a seedling.
The Algorithm's Influence on Content
00:26:45
Speaker
Yes. Like for much deeper, you know, out of a hundred people who you might cross paths with on Instagram, maybe one or two become close friends over time. You never know. So I think that's, that's a great way to see it. And I hadn't really thought of it that way prior to this. Yeah, absolutely.
00:27:05
Speaker
so all right. I want to switch gears now. Like, I feel like we've, we've talked about like, you know, the brain chemistry around social media and and how it's great. I would like to come to maybe some of the risks associated with it that come part and parcel of all this great stuff.
00:27:20
Speaker
And i think I'd like to start with this word, algorithm. ah The algorithm is tough. We all have a sense for what it means.
00:27:31
Speaker
Like, i oh, I should have looked up the definition of an algorithm for Mary. Sorry, Mary. I didn't look. Sorry, Mary. should um But the algorithm is, if you ask the lay public, I think we would all kind of give this sort of answer that it's the unseen algorithm.
00:27:49
Speaker
mastermind in essence that controls what people see based on their previous clicking behavior. It's run by, it it it's obviously engineered by, you know, software developers and company executives for could the kind of behavior they want the algorithm to have.
00:28:10
Speaker
But apparently it's also updated constantly via neural networks that update themselves without even human intervention, like almost like AI. So the algorithm is learning as it goes and changing things, even unbeknownst to its human inventors.
00:28:28
Speaker
So it is this governing force or unseen mastermind that affects that potentially affects what we post, what we consume, whether people see what we post.
00:28:43
Speaker
And I think there's a rich conversation around this. Absolutely. I always think of it as the ghost in the machine is that there's this sort of mysterious mathematical model that decides, yeah, what your social experience social media experience is going to be.
00:29:02
Speaker
And so. I can't think of anything so powerful that we know so little about. Well, it's all proprietary. They're not going to tell us what the we don't know anything about these algorithms Right?
00:29:14
Speaker
and i which To my knowledge, I don't know fuck all about it. I was just thinking this is turning into like a podcast about fucking UFOs and shit out here. like the The government is trying to keep us!
00:29:29
Speaker
On social media. Well, it's the platforms that steal the algorithms. and you so you have to think about like what do the platforms want, right? They want us on the platform. They want us on the platform. yeah And so the so the platforms are learning about you. Have you ever...
00:29:50
Speaker
been on Facebook and felt like it was listening to your conversations. I have felt that we have all, I went and looked, is there any way or Facebook and hear me, but it's not, it's not.
00:30:02
Speaker
So, but what's happening is every move you make on any platform is informing the platform about who you are and who people like you are and what people like you like.
00:30:16
Speaker
And so if you're, if you're, what in terms of being a consumer on the platform, it's showing you things that it thinks that you like based on your behavior on that platform and behavior of people like you.
00:30:31
Speaker
And it's a very sophisticated mathematical model. And so that's why it seems like it's listening to your conversations. It's making predictions about who you are, your gender, your age, your race, everything about you, where you live, your political belief, everything.
00:30:46
Speaker
um And so then it's fire hosing at you. Content that it thinks you're going to like or that is going to. That's my question, right? Is like we we know that the algorithm is trying to bait us into not leaving the platform, whatever platform
Emotional Triggers in Content Strategy
00:31:03
Speaker
it is. You Google something and then that ad shows up on YouTube, which is fine. They're owned by the same company.
00:31:08
Speaker
But you Google something and then it shows up on Facebook marketplace and you're like, how did it? Those are two separate entities. ah So they're clearly trading information. We know this. This is. But but how does that affect our lizard brains?
00:31:20
Speaker
Right. Like, how does that affect the medulla oblongata? Whatever the fuck is going on in there, and do you know? So so I want to know, like, does that we talk about the echo chamber in being.
00:31:32
Speaker
cornered in, you know, whatever corner of society over the internet you want to to to be in, in not leaving that corner. But how does that affect our ability to navigate the world when we're not staring at our phones?
00:31:46
Speaker
Yes. So one thing that the algorithm does to our brains is it puts us on this sort of crazy treadmill.
00:31:58
Speaker
And so when we're posting on social media, ah so I'm going to take the perspective of an influencer like you guys. Right. So you're posting different things. I thought would be algorithm.
00:32:09
Speaker
Was that? I said, I hate that word. Sorry. It's fine. It's fine. It's what I am. I get it. Yes, I know. Okay. So the algorithm, the metaphor that I use in terms of algorithm is it's like, and i'm I'm curious of your thoughts on this, if this resonates, it's like playing a game, but you don't know the rules of this game.
00:32:29
Speaker
And the rules are going to change at any point during the game, but you don't know when they're going to change or how they're going to change. And so what happens for someone who is creating their brand or you know, and using social media from a marketing perspective in some way of your influencer, what have you.
00:32:47
Speaker
is that it creates this stressful circumstance where you're yourre trying to sort of guess at what the algorithm is going to like, quote unquote, like. So what's going to get engagement?
00:33:00
Speaker
And that what's going to get engagement sort of changing? So we that we don't know what that algorithm They never told you. how it started either. Like you don't know the rules to begin with and you don't know when or how it's going to change over time.
00:33:14
Speaker
You know nothing. And so it's in charge of those social media breadcrumbs that you're getting. And so it's going to toss you a few crumbs, let you know likes, ah comments, that sort of thing.
00:33:24
Speaker
And it puts you on this sort of ever increasing speed treadmill where you're sort of chasing those things, but not really sure how to pull them in. Right.
00:33:36
Speaker
So Eric, you and I have changed our posting behavior over time because we saw what worked. Many times. There it is. Give an example.
00:33:48
Speaker
Uh, early on in the Instagram game, I used to produce a particular style of video. Everything was double sped and everything was one second cuts. And I would trip like typically, uh, move them in sets of three. So there would be like an auditory with rhythm to it.
00:34:04
Speaker
You know, like you'd be machine, machine, machine, hand tool, hand tool, hand tool, machine, machine, machine, hand tool, hand tool, hand tool. Wow. And really it was, oh yeah, it was very calculated wow because people could fall into that. Like the, the, I don't know, the drum like nature of it. And I had people comment on that from time to time and that stopped working. I don't remember when it was, but that stopped working probably around the same time that, um,
00:34:32
Speaker
growing a brand as an influencer content creator became slicker it was less about you know what you were doing in the long format of the video and just grabbing people's attention right away and then it became more shock factory for lack of a better word or or like sherry that you were saying that um You know, you never know how the game is going to change and what's going to to get good engagement or go viral. And that's absolutely true. But if there's one thing that you can absolutely bank on, there's two things that you know for sure that are never going to change.
00:35:07
Speaker
The more engagement a post gets, the higher likelihood that it's going to go viral because you're engaging people on the platform and it's going to push that to a wider audience. That's never going to change. And the one emotion you can always bank on people for is rage.
00:35:21
Speaker
Yes. Always bank on knowing how to make people angry. And if they're angry, they will comment. Sure. i don't like I don't I hate doing that because nobody wants to be in those comment sections.
00:35:32
Speaker
But we do live in an attention economy. And if people are on your page for whatever it is and they are commenting and getting eyeballs, then you are going to get paid more money from companies. So if that's your goal, that that is a foolproof way to do it.
00:35:47
Speaker
Eric. I feel like I'm like this naive babe in the woods and you are like the experienced hunter who just shot me. But everything he's saying is scientifically accurate and that rage does produce clicks. Because if you think about any emotion that's going to move...
00:36:05
Speaker
move you to do something. Rage is, is the one you're most likely to, cause it feeds like your impulsivity of like, you want to comment, you want to fight back. You want to, you can't help yourself. Someone says something, you're like, no, that's not right.
00:36:19
Speaker
And so I want to say that or you date that people into a fight, you know? yeah And if, if they can't fight you, then they can at least comment on how they know better than you. Yeah, but who wants to live like that? So many people don't care. It's just about the clicks and about getting so sad. There's this there's this ah particular influencer. I just do you guys know about the Dubai chocolate thing?
00:36:42
Speaker
No, I just learned about this about the other day. It's been going on for like a couple of years at this point, I guess. But so Dubai chocolate is ah like a chocolate company or something of that nature.
00:36:53
Speaker
where it's effectively like a chocolate bar with pistachio cream filling, but it's like super gooey and super runny. And there's this one, what I'm getting to is there's this one influencer in Dubai who their entire job is just to eat shit in the car.
00:37:10
Speaker
And the more it has to be visually engaging, bright colors, interesting textures, it usually has to have some sound to it. So like non on ah a gooey chocolate bar has a lot you know, that kind of thing to it.
00:37:24
Speaker
But this is their entire job is to just get people to sit there and watch satisfying videos of them eating. It doesn't hurt that she's a very attractive person, but that is like, it's all just vision. It's all porn is what it is, right? Like it's just, they is are how can I get you to be satisfied by this thing that's happening in front of your face?
00:37:48
Speaker
And if you stay there and watch it, whether you, Engage because you're mad that this is how I make money or you engage because you think I'm pretty or you engage because you want to eat a chocolate bar. Either way, the engagement, the virality all leads to that person getting paid.
00:38:02
Speaker
Well, I think people that's all that matters. Well, it's interesting because I think in addition to rage, the other thing that does sell is sex. Sure. That are sexy. Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. So there's and no get clicks because there are so many viral things on Instagram, Facebook, whatever, where it's just like a funny video and it's gone viral because you open the comment section and 98% of the comments are just dudes being like, what's her at though?
00:38:32
Speaker
Where's she at on the internet? Yeah, because she's hot. you know yeah And it happens the other way around. Listen, Bradley Thor, you guys know this clown? The guy who chops a wood? Oh, yeah. you don't Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know him. You've seen him. yes Yes, yes.
00:38:44
Speaker
He's no fucking philosopher. Like, we know why people watch him. You know? And that's fine. He's not like he wears glasses and shit, tries to pretend. I'm sure he's a perfectly intelligent guy. I'm not shitting on him. But like, ah people are not watching him for his treatises.
00:39:00
Speaker
People are watching him because he has a six pack and he chops wood good. So it's and this is our basic instincts, right? Well, I'll give you a little story. So I used to blog about... I had a weight loss blog because was doing a lot of um work in behavioral weight management.
00:39:16
Speaker
And so I have the page on psychology today and writing about different aspects of of weight loss, diet, physical activity and stuff. And I started to notice... that the posts that I make that mentioned sex or had anything related to sex would get way more views.
00:39:36
Speaker
And, and it did start to kind of make me think of like, how can I tie things to sex? That's the algorithm that, Yes. The algorithm. Right. So I would talk about like, um you know, how is food like porn, you know, like from addiction. And I, so I found myself kind of like thinking of like, how can I create intersections? yeah We all do it. Yeah. Oh, that was, yeah that was a weak link, brother. I'll let you workshop that one.
00:40:05
Speaker
you were you So, you yes, you were being manipulated by the outcome. Yeah, and I can that whenever you kind of bring that in, it it it brings viewers to the content. You're like, whatever brings people into my content. but So when we think of like our basic instincts, sex, rage, you know extreme emotions, those are going to bring...
Growing an Audience with Data Analysis
00:40:25
Speaker
They bring our attention. that That's that's ah affecting our brain, right? This is like the lowest common denominator. yeah Go ahead, Eric. it It is, but it's also... So were you making any money from that blog?
00:40:37
Speaker
Like, was it was it a ah business endeavor? No. was making $0.00 and 0 cents. Yeah, um yeah so Okay. Well, so I'm thinking about this. money the goal of that blog? So the purpose of that blog was that I was getting my ideas out there to try to put together a book for a book deal.
00:40:59
Speaker
Okay. And so so getting more views was... um almost like a side quest, right? Like it wasn't affecting your bottom line. It was just now for, and I don't say this accusatorily, so forgive me if this is the wrong verbiage to use, but like it was pure ego, right? You just wanted more eyeballs for the sake of more eyeballs.
00:41:18
Speaker
I did want to expand my reach for sure yeah that ah I would get more people interested in my ideas. And so it was really kind of, you know, using words and metaphors, you know, so i like for ah the example, like I did a post about food addiction and talking about how like what does food and porn have in common? So just the word porn.
00:41:40
Speaker
yeah And like the whole post has nothing to do with the porn. of blue yeah well it blew But the word porn was bringing in so many views. And so, yeah, I did get i did get sucked into that. when i don't So i do this. I struggle with this on YouTube now. Because if I just put out a video that says um walnut wall hanging cabinet.
00:42:00
Speaker
Like, I know my floor. My floor is at least good, you know, 20,000 to 30,000 will watch that video. If I put out a video like I did on Saturday, that is me showing the L-tenon, which is a technique a lot of people expressed interest in learning because they had never seen it before.
00:42:16
Speaker
And you title it the best kept secret in woodworking? question mark Now, all of a sudden, that video has been out for what, four days? It's at like 90,000 views. Okay, great. That's a strong video. The amount of people, this is where it gets interesting to me.
00:42:30
Speaker
The amount of people who click on that video and then watch the video and then go to the comment section and complain about being click baited or like just be like, well, yeah, it was good information, but why did you have to title it that way?
00:42:46
Speaker
Did you get that? Did you, you but you got that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that with almost every video, but. You know why I titled it that? Because you clicked on it. That's why, like, you're proving the point.
00:42:58
Speaker
Because if I do that, you click on it, and then you complain that I did it, but that thing is what got you to click on it. Because if I had titled it, mitered, walnut, veneered, wall cabinet, you would have been like, I don't, you know?
00:43:13
Speaker
Like, that's not interesting. I hate it. I hate it. And I understand it all at the same time. I wish it didn't have to come to that. So, you know, speaking about what works with the algorithm, you know, Eric, you're talking about a compelling title. And Sherry, you've mentioned like the word sex or anything alluding to the word sex early on in social media. And this is specific to Instagram.
00:43:37
Speaker
I kind of handled it in a scientific way. I used to download it back in the day. You could actually download information directly from Instagram's data servers.
00:43:49
Speaker
You were allowed to do that. You could connect to them, download huge swaths of data. It was open at the time. And then you could analyze that data. So what I would do back then is I would I would take a woodworker who is doing like really, really well in social media.
00:44:06
Speaker
And i would download their data directly into a spreadsheet. And then I would sort their posts by day, by time, by number of likes, by number of comments.
00:44:18
Speaker
And then what I would get is a graph over time, every post they've ever made, like a thousand posts or two, you know, whatever. And each of those has data associated with it, right? And I would sort sort their 1,000 posts. Let's say you had 1,000 posts.
00:44:33
Speaker
I would sort them by the number of likes and comments. And I would look at the top 10. And I would say, what is it about these top 10 that is so different from some other randomly selected posts?
00:44:47
Speaker
And I started to categorize a list of about five to seven attributes that I kept recognizing in the posts that performed versus those that didn't in one account.
00:44:59
Speaker
Right. So that kind of like within one account, it kind of normalizes the data. And I came away with a list of like five to seven like best practices. Now, this is in the early days of Instagram.
00:45:11
Speaker
And i I copied them. I mimicked it. Yeah. You scienced how to be a cool kid is what you did. You're like, cool kids wear these jeans and backwards hats. Eric, my account went from 2000 followers 20,000 followers why sure in a week or two Like, that's how I ah like that in part, that's how I built my audience. But then I started thinking, yeah, but that's bullshit. Are these the great people I want?
00:45:41
Speaker
Are these the people who want my art, who want to buy my stuff, who are interested in woodworking or are they just clickbaity follows, you know? So yes, it got me some numbers ah really fast, but But it's the wrong, it was the wrong people. Now, let's set that aside because that those days are gone. but That's such an interesting point, though. Okay, go ahead. you what are days Because having the foundation of an audience leads to other opportunities, which allows you to set aside the type of audience that you don't want to have. So it's it's a problem of luxury, right? That's true. problem of excess.
00:46:17
Speaker
And there are so opportunities starving artists in any medium, right? Painting, sculpture, drawing, whatever it is, woodworking, who are like, if I could just get eyeballs on my work yeah and they're, they're taught this kind of, and I'm not, I'm not trying to pick on you, Paul, in this moment, but just like the art school,
00:46:39
Speaker
like holier than now, like you're better than social media. Don't be clickbaity. Your work will speak for itself. And then they're eating peanut butter and jellies out of their van for 10 years before they give up and like take a job at urban so that they can continue to fucking make a box once a year because they didn't, they didn't do the thing to get enough eyeballs on their work to have the problem of, are these the right eyeballs? Yeah. Yes. Well, yes what you're talking about, did they do the work to get the eyeballs?
00:47:08
Speaker
That's about sales and marketing. Yeah. It's a different thing. not make out That's not about being a woodworker. That is sales. I did it through data analysis. All right. That's my strong suit. So that's what I did.
00:47:19
Speaker
You know, I downloaded data, I analyzed data and I followed the data. That's exactly what social media marketing people do. that's There's a whole career to that. They work for companies and figure out how do we get eyeballs on whatever is our project. So you're our product. So like you're doing that kind of on a you know independent i did yeah businessman perspective. But all the big companies, they're doing that. That's true. too an extensive degree.
00:47:46
Speaker
And so like that whole technique, even though it was whatever, 15 years ago, and that's not any different than what's happening now. No, it's as far as so easily available. Sure. Sure. But like you can, if you,
00:48:02
Speaker
hop on youtube and you just look for the most viral videos and look at the thumbnails it's true all mr beast thumbnails or or that style of thumbnail they're all the same type of title like it's you see a thing that works and you take the top five or top ten and then you copy it and then that spreads because people are just trying to find the eyeballs All right Eric, with regards to your last point, this is the other thing I wanted to get to is like it feels I think for a lot of people, not just you and me who, you know, indulge in social media and sharing for that matter.
00:48:35
Speaker
and It feels I think for most quote unquote people or like normal people that the bar is so high that. in terms of the quality of social media to get noticed now it almost seems unthinkably high i see videos by people that get a lot of likes ah whether it's the woodworking space or almost any space and they're so well done it's like the cinematography is amazing the the photography is amazing The editing is amazing. The sounds amazing. it it It's it's current. it It appeals to the algorithm. It keeps your interest.
00:49:13
Speaker
And I just feel like there's so many people now who want to build an audience and they look at that and say, Jesus Christ, like, where do I even start with that?
Challenges for New Creators on Social Media
00:49:23
Speaker
The bar is so high to get noticed now.
00:49:26
Speaker
Do you feel like that? Yes, it is. And I'm trying to think of the right analogy. So like, We've all been to a tap room, you know, like a like a brew pub, you know, a brewery. and And you show up there at Wednesday at 2 p.m.
00:49:46
Speaker
And there's, you know, there's there's 12 people in there. Like you might be having a conversation with your buddy, but you you also hear two people down the bar having an interesting conversation. Then you're like, oh, shit I was actually just at that place a couple of weeks ago. You start talking, you become friends.
00:50:01
Speaker
That was Instagram in the era that you're talking about, right? Like it was less crowded. There was less noise. You go to that same brewery at Friday at nine o'clock at night. And it is like, it's standing room only.
00:50:13
Speaker
There's so much noise. There's so much conversation happening. You can barely hear your friends, but sometimes there's, You hear somebody who's telling a story and just the way they're telling it with so much charisma and they know how to grab people's attention. They know how to keep people's attention.
00:50:30
Speaker
And then all of a sudden you're like, well, I want to hear what this fucking guy's talking about. And you're just listening to them tell a story. That feels like social media now. It's like in order to grab somebody's attention, there's so much stimuli happening all over the place all of the time simultaneously that you have to not just be a good storyteller because being a good storyteller means you understand story structure and you start at point A, get to point B and resolve at point C. You have to grab people at point B.
00:51:00
Speaker
Which is why people have cold opens, which is what we did at the beginning of this fucking episode. Like, how do you how do you get people to click on the thing and then go, oh, I want to hear the rest of this thing?
00:51:11
Speaker
sure How do you feel about that example of like Eric gives a great metaphor. Yeah, i think that's a great metaphor. you feel like that is your experience? I think, i yeah, definitely. And one thing that I'll add to it also is people who, and I have an example in my mind that I've seen kind of in like my own interest area is like, sometimes there's a voice that hits the moment.
00:51:35
Speaker
And it's it's saying something that maybe no one has said, and it just strikes the moment when there's people thinking about a certain subject matter that hasn't been talked about enough, and it takes off. So like examples might be like Mel Robbins. like She took off in a very short period of time because she had a message that resonated in the moment.
00:51:57
Speaker
And there's ah there's another influencer that just... Went from nobody to on every talk show, every big podcast, because she one day over the summer opened up Instagram and started talking about menopause. I know this like a chick topic, but like, um,
00:52:17
Speaker
um and Sorry, we know menopause exists. so yeah Yeah, but like it's just an example of, yeah know she found a lane and it hit kind of that lightning in the bottle, like that nerve, and that people hadn't seen it quite set in a certain way.
00:52:32
Speaker
and then it So if people can go in a very short period of time from zero to on the Today Show because they just hit the right moment at the right time. Now, how to plan that is probably...
00:52:47
Speaker
impossible but like that that sometimes is a piece of it too is like i i don't think you can plan it and no here's here's where i'm going to derendipity prove this point um there are a number of accounts that post the exact same video every single day oh the one and the the one that The one that comes up on my feed the most because I always watch it every time it comes up because it's genuinely fucking hilarious.
00:53:13
Speaker
i don't I can't remember the name of the girl, but it was like one of those drunk street interviews kind of situations. And this girl was clearly like slammed. And ah the dude's like, what would you do if you won the lottery? And she like tries to articulate that she would buy a buffet, like a Chinese food buffet.
00:53:29
Speaker
ah but she a can't and be a stuffing her face with some kind of gooey food. It's hilarious. She's very pretty. The video is hilarious. This account posts the same video every day, every single day for like a year.
00:53:43
Speaker
And literally the same video, literally the same video. And the title is very simply like, Day 97, day 142, that's it. That's like the... The same i idea. that video The exact same video.
00:53:57
Speaker
And some of the videos get 500 likes in three comments And it's like almost clockwork, like once every other month, every few like dozen posts, it blows up and it gets 400,000 likes and, you know, a couple thousand comments because it's ah it's hitting a whole new wave of people who haven't seen that video before.
00:54:19
Speaker
So it's just like if there if there's a more pure example of how it's just random chance, I don't know what it is. Well, I also wonder if that's like part of the mysteriousness of the algorithm where the moment in time where something just sort of takes off and because I'm assuming like the algorithm somehow is pushing that into feeds of people for whom have clicked, you know, a lot on a certain topic. So it's it's so it's hard to kind of pinpoint. But I think that's a great example of how mysterious the algorithm is, is how you could post the same thing so many times.
Balancing Authenticity and Online Identity
00:54:56
Speaker
Sometimes it's viral and sometimes it's it's not. I really want to find this account now. Keep talking. I'm going to look for it. that That's so very interesting. The risk here is we talked about we don't know what the algorithm is. We try to intuit it just from watching, and and whether it's analyzing data or watching what it goes, and you kind of parrot it. And the question was like, does it change your behavior of how you post?
00:55:18
Speaker
Does it change your behavior of how you consume? And does it lead to burnout? Yeah. Like if you're chasing it, does it impact your self-esteem and lead to burnout? Yeah, so I think chasing the algorithm is just going to be inherently stressful because you're playing this game that you don't know the rules to. And there is this element that seems sort of unpredictable about it, you know, in Eric's example.
00:55:42
Speaker
And so you're just on this treadmill of like trying to figure out how do i you know, hit pay dirt and i have no idea. And and so you're just firing things off.
00:55:53
Speaker
And so I think that definitely could lead to burnout because especially to the extent that nothing you're trying is really working that well. You're never hitting the page. Like the people that we're talking about are, you know, probably like the 1%, right? But most people are not having that kind of.
00:56:10
Speaker
Okay. So as a psychologist, how do you think that chasing the algorithm, chasing what will get noticed? How do you think as ah as a psychologist, this affects our sense of self and our self-esteem?
00:56:23
Speaker
Well, I think in a few ways, I think one way that it could affect us is that we start to drift away from our purpose because you might. So let's say you're a woodworker and you you you have a certain lane that you're really passionate about.
00:56:39
Speaker
And then the algorithm comes by. And tells you what's popular and what's not. And it starts to drift you in a certain direction that maybe you would not normally go. So you're sort of chasing algorithm rather than maybe where you started off or where you wanted to go with your craft. So you're saying like, it's like your real world persona versus your online persona.
00:57:01
Speaker
And these two things are forming separately and one might be drifting. Yeah, I think it you can drift away from who you are by chasing an algorithm, like whatever the subject matter that you're talking about. You you start to drift because you're sort of becoming a slave to the algorithm rather than when you're a creative person,
00:57:20
Speaker
you're you right Well, you both are creative people. Where are your ideas coming from? Like set aside social media. Not from the algorithm. No. Not from social media. no but where is it coming from? Real world. I don't know where it comes from.
00:57:35
Speaker
Like when you have a next project, what are you thinking about? like God, there's so many other stimuli. There's there's observation, there's research, and and none of that happens on social media.
00:57:48
Speaker
Mm-hmm. You know, because what I don't want to do is make the same shit everybody else is making. But that also i also understand from a business perspective that puts me at a disadvantage because that means that I don't have the same like there are moments.
00:58:02
Speaker
This is again, everybody chasing virality. If you hit it just right. And you get a viral video, especially on YouTube, even still in 2025, if you really get something that goes viral, that can change your entire career.
00:58:18
Speaker
yeah And that's what people are trying to do. Nobody's trying to be a base hitter anymore. everybody's trying to be a home run hitter. So we're all playing the same game. And then the bar gets overly loud.
00:58:29
Speaker
And so you then have to play the same game in order to ah be a part of the conversation. And by taking inspiration from other places, that immediately puts me at a disadvantage.
00:58:42
Speaker
Eric, how do you square... This idea of like being authentically yourself in the real world versus your online persona, who you appear to be, who you represent yourself to be, who you are as you chase numbers online. How do you keep those separate or stay true to who you are?
00:59:04
Speaker
Something I heard a few years ago, and I i can't remember who said it, but um it it helped me kind of quell some of the anxieties about this ah is anytime you put a camera in front of a person or an audience in front of a person, whatever it is, and they are genuinely themselves. And most people start out genuinely themselves. You know, they're the people who play. They're the Pee Wee Hermans of the world who play characters. But.
00:59:28
Speaker
Most people start out as themselves. And then as they find what works, if you're a comedian, it's getting engagement from the audience. If you're a content creator, it's getting clicks, whatever it is, you become a more exaggerated version of yourself.
00:59:43
Speaker
So. I don't think who I am on the internet and who I am when you and I are sitting down at a bar and having a beer and talking about life are different people. But I do recognize they're close, but they're not the same. They're not the same. right They're close. And they, and the one becomes an exaggerated version of certain aspects of my personality. Mm-hmm.
01:00:04
Speaker
Because it's impossible, regardless of how how much you try, it is impossible to contain the entirety of somebody's humanity in a 20-minute video.
01:00:15
Speaker
Absolutely. Cher, have you ever felt like that? Have you ever felt like your online persona, that Dr. Sherry Pagato was at odds with who you were personally?
01:00:26
Speaker
I would say it's my professional self, ah but anybody's professional self is different than the personal self. And part of that, and that's not always bad. um There are things that you don't talk about at work or in your professional spheres because it's inappropriate, you know?
01:00:45
Speaker
So it's not always bad, true ah but it can go south and it can kind of go in a negative way because, what people are seeing, they may... Because I hear... I think this is the thing about social media is you're sitting in you in your basement or your house.
01:01:03
Speaker
We're sitting in Paul's house. So we seem like this is our real selves, right? And it is our real selves. But don't be fooled that that like this is our real lives in all of the colors that we experience. Right. That's what I mean, right? Yeah. And so... And that's...
01:01:21
Speaker
And so I think it's more the viewer needs to understand that um even though it seems like there's this relatability to people that you see online and they're you they're posting from their own homes, they look like us, they're normal, they talk like us.
01:01:36
Speaker
it doesn't mean that this is their whole real lives. We don't necessarily portray every aspect of our lives. Like when we're feeling depressed or when we have failures and things like that, we're not necessarily like projecting all of that. And of course we're not, it's not necessarily like specific to what,
01:01:52
Speaker
your brand is in that sort of thing but i think from the the viewer standpoint they think like this is eric's life he's like this amazing person and he's always happy and he's kind constantly traveling to interesting places and doing all these things so yeah i'm fucking tired bro yeah Yes. Like everything he creates is amazing. Paul is like a genius. Like everything he creates is amazing.
01:02:17
Speaker
But you have to remember as a viewer that these are real people that have real problems. and And to not as a viewer to kind of compare yourselves and think like everyone's more productive. Everyone's more creative. No one has problems.
01:02:32
Speaker
No one is sad. no one has... failures and disasters and that sort of thing. Cause we all do. It's just that, of course you're not going to always parade that around when we're talking about certain subject matter. in And I think the professional parallel is a really good one because like, so I was a teacher. I think we talked about that last time and let's take the kid aspect out of it. Let's say I'm a college teacher. So I'm teaching adults, right? Masters, PhDs, whatever.
01:03:01
Speaker
If I came in into work and, and was just, like, absolutely just a fucking wreck. Like, hungover. Like, shit was terrible. And I was just like, guys, you just gotta understand I'm going through it right now. I don't think Dr. Curtis is doing so hot. I think maybe he needs a leave of absence.
01:03:22
Speaker
You know? Because that's not... Because that's not the professional place to do that. That's not how that relationship works. So...
01:03:34
Speaker
yeah We all know that the social media is kind of like the highlight, often the highlight reel of our lives, right? What I think 90, 98% of people, of people use social media as the highlight real.
01:03:50
Speaker
You show your best vacation picks. You show the right angles. You show the best project that worked out the best. You show yeah you don't show the time you and your wife got in a fight because the walk was too long and she was hangry and it started raining. but But while that is the overwhelming norm, 99 point something percent,
01:04:09
Speaker
there is a new economy of people who milk failure and milk the other side. right It's like they're, they're using their trauma to get clicks and everyone flocks to it saying, Oh my God, finally i can relate to this.
01:04:25
Speaker
Yes. This sucks. I'm depressed all the time. i couldn't even like, I I've seen, I've seen like these, these influencers like, and they talk real flat affect. theyre like, and so I, I just, I just woke up and,
01:04:38
Speaker
I had a major, i had a major win today. i i put on my socks.
01:04:45
Speaker
And you're like, you're waiting for it. And you're like, and it never comes. And like, people are like, yes, girl, I feel that. I feel you. Thank you for speaking your truth. There's like a whole new creator economy but around trauma. I think there's a place for this though. So as a mental health professional, I will say, I'll, I'll use TikTok as an example.
01:05:07
Speaker
And Gen Z. So I'm Gen or Gen X. No, let's let's shit on Gen Z. I love this. Yeah. Oh, no, I'm not going to sit on Gen Z. Oh, that's disappointing. I could shit on them, but right now I'm going to compliment them.
01:05:21
Speaker
Like, so in Gen X, like we were never allowed to talk about mental health issues. Everyone pretended like it didn't even exist. Don't be so much stigma. yeah Yeah. Yeah. If you're a man.
01:05:34
Speaker
But like in Gen Z, I think like, and TikTok was part of this. They de-stigmatized mental illness. Like there's influencers. My daughter shows me like there's influence, like you name the mental illness and there's an influencer and the power of that. And and there's actually some like artists, I think like Kid Cudi was one of them. He talked about his depression online and it went viral. And and so like, I think there's value to that.
01:05:59
Speaker
The danger for the influencer though, is that if you're, Online identity is your trauma or your depression. You got to be careful that this is going to hamper your ability to move on.
01:06:16
Speaker
And because like. Yeah. And so you don't want it your identity to to be mired into your mental illness per se especially to the extent that that is affecting your own healing.
01:06:30
Speaker
And so if if that's what's getting your clicks, I worry a little bit about folks who are doing that in terms of, you know, are only a little bit. Well, it could be a lot of it depending on, I mean, if it's a chronic mental illness that they're living with, you know, for example, like you have autism or you have ADHD, you're living with that your whole life. Sure. Sure. Sure. Depression is episodic. Anxiety can sometimes be episodic, but some illnesses are lifelong.
01:06:56
Speaker
And so to kind of give a window into like what it's like, but you want to be sure that like your identity doesn't necessarily become that. And social media can sort of reinforce that. It's like, all I am is my ADHD, for example, or I'm like, Well, sure.
01:07:09
Speaker
yeah Sure. ah So i heard again, i don't remember who said this, but I've heard it said that people stop emotionally maturing at the age, whatever age it is that they get famous, which is why like child actors like become so fucked up generally because like you become famous at 11 for the sandlot.
01:07:31
Speaker
And then all of a sudden, like you're just that character for the rest of your life. And how do you mature past that? It's a phenomenal movie. All-timer. It's really good. But so so social media is effectively giving us that in smaller doses.
01:07:48
Speaker
And some people do strike it huge, right? That's that's part of the game. That's part of the... the the lottery that you're going after. um And so when people like ADHD is one thing, you know, autism is one thing.
01:08:02
Speaker
But when people you like you said, episodic things like depression, when that becomes what you're known for and in not to knock necessarily the people in the comments saying I identify with them because there's a new crop of depressed people all the time.
01:08:18
Speaker
Right. like yeah People constantly go through shit and they need. It's the same reason we listen to sad music when we're sad. We want that kind of confirmation, that affirmation. yeah But the people who do make that their identity, because what else?
01:08:32
Speaker
Like if you grow an audience because you're going through a tough period of time and then all of a sudden you're like, everything's happy and fine now. What do you have to make content about? Yeah.
01:08:43
Speaker
What are you going to talk about? Because that was the thing. That was the catalyst for the conversation. That was like sailing with Phoenix, this kid, right? And his cat who like, he's like, fuck this. I'm going to quit my job. Oh, the guy who sailed across the Pacific. Remember?
01:08:57
Speaker
yeah, yeah. He got super famous overnight. Yeah, because he was a rebel. I'm going to throw it all on the line. I've never sailed before. I'm going learn how to sell. I'm go buy a boat. I'm going to cash in all my money. I'm going to buy this boat. I'm going to take my damn cat and we're going to sail across the Pacific alone.
01:09:11
Speaker
And I don't know what I'm doing. Let's do it. And the world tuned in. He got so famous so fast. Well, I've been following him since. What happened? Well, he reached he reached Hawaii.
01:09:23
Speaker
And and he he's enjoying Hawaii for like months. And he sails from little little inlet to little inlet around Hawaii. And he works on his boat.
01:09:34
Speaker
And it's boring as shit. Yep. Because yeah like to all the angst and the risk of like that big, I'm going to sail across the Pacific Ocean, quit my job, because fuck this.
01:09:47
Speaker
that's all gone. Just like you're saying, like, I'm not sure what's next. that what is it He says he's going to sail around the rest of the world, but we're not going to happen. He hasn't done it yet. It's not going to happen. and Well, and i wonder if that goal is just because he got a lot of attention for it the first time.
01:10:01
Speaker
Like that would make a great movie, but for a social media long term. And it when it happens in life hours, like it's, but it takes fucking forever. Yeah. yeah It's so that's the kind of thing where,
01:10:17
Speaker
I think this is the same reason why people and I don't want to sound like an asshole right now. But this is where are 45 episodes too late for that.
01:10:28
Speaker
um i I think this is why people who don't know what they're doing, who start YouTube channels like woodworking channels specifically are they having much higher ceiling than people like you and I, because the drama of the learning and the failing, we've already done that.
01:10:47
Speaker
And you can't manufacture it very well. You can, but it comes off as cheesy and scripted. Whereas like somebody who like, doesn't really know how to use table saw and genuinely gets kicked back and takes it to the stomach.
01:11:01
Speaker
Like that's a good cold open. Cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing. Meanwhile, I'm out here cutting two and a half inch rip cut plywood, uh, in fucking L bracket in it. And just like, just put pressure in the right place. And then you won't fucking die. And people are like, how could you like the drama's gone?
01:11:16
Speaker
Like I know what I'm doing. Yeah. That's a good point. All I want to change to, uh, our last topic that I think is really, compelling, which is real world versus online world.
The Impact of Anonymity in Online Interactions
01:11:28
Speaker
let's let's Let's draw the distinction. And I want to start by saying, Eric, Sherry, what happens if you are in the grocery store and you accidentally run into someone?
01:11:40
Speaker
Sherry, what what do you say to that person? ah Who am I running into? it' just no no i don't know that's a That is a critical question, Jerry. No, no, no. and no no ah ah This is a stranger. Am I seeing them from 30 feet turning around and going down a different aisle? don't mean run into someone like Matthew. Oh my God. You guys are the worst. what am i How am I looking? How am I feeling? what's What's good? Are they cute? Who is this person? You're at the grocery store and you're turning around to get something and you accidentally elbow a stranger.
01:12:13
Speaker
Okay. bye what do What do you do? I elbow a stranger. I feel like, oh, sorry. Okay. Eric, what do you do? What do you say? Oh, I'm so sorry. You know, I usually, this is the thing that i I instinctively do that I've had to check myself because some people get uncomfortable. I'll usually like, you know, touch them like where I, but oh, I'm so sorry. Kind of where I elbowed them. Okay. And then some people give me a good look. Will you marry me?
01:12:36
Speaker
But. That never works. So not yet. Don't give up on that dream. All right. So I want to contrast. I want to contrast that response. Both of you said the same thing.
01:12:48
Speaker
I'm so sorry. Oh my God. So, so sorry. To the way we behave online behind a keyboard. Hmm. How do you behave? How do people behave online behind a keyboard of and the wall of anonymity?
01:13:02
Speaker
fuck you you don't know what you're talking about you're such a loser like it's not this courteous yeah it's not courteous people are keyboard warriors at home they eric you have tons of these people sure sure now there are a lot of nice people who leave a lot of nice comments i'm not negating that yeah but we have a negativity bias it's There's a lot of nasty people. There's a lot of trolling out there.
01:13:27
Speaker
A lot of people, not not necessarily in the woodworking community. I'd say in general, the woodworking community is pretty good. But we know that everyone's a keyboard warrior out there on Reddit when they're an anonymous.
01:13:39
Speaker
So it's like, let me get this straight. When you're not anonymous and you're face to face with a complete stranger and you accidentally elbow them. No, no harm involved. You're so apologetic. Oh, please excuse me. I'm so sorry.
01:13:51
Speaker
ah But somehow when you're anonymous behind the curtain of online behavior, you're a total fucking dick. But this is not limited to online behavior. You know, like this is so you have mischief night, right? The night before Halloween.
01:14:06
Speaker
Why do you think everybody dresses in masks so you don't know who the fuck they are and they're free to do whatever the fuck they want because you can't identify them. This is why think this is i think it's just a part of human nature. If you can't be identified, you are freer to be the worst version of yourself because there is a lesser chance of repercussion.
01:14:27
Speaker
Eric is a psychologist, basically. he's You're 100% right in that if we're... it it so Because the the thing about being anonymous is that we can't really experience consequences of our behavior because no one can tie it to who we are.
01:14:45
Speaker
And so then we're disinhibited. And so that's why online... we people act in ways that they would never act if they were right in front of your face. They would make comments that they would never say if they were standing right in front of you.
01:14:59
Speaker
And so that's kind of the worst part of social media is that conversations devolve because that anonymity makes people feel free to kind of say things that they wouldn't normally say because they're not going to experience social consequences.
01:15:15
Speaker
Because if they were to say that to your face, you're I may you might punch them out. i don't know. But like you but you would even if you didn't punch them out, um they you would your nonverbals, the look on your face, but the even the feeling in the room, it would get quiet because everyone would be like, well, that changes things like yeah many times. Have you had conversations with somebody that, you know, and love and care about over text?
01:15:41
Speaker
And it's getting a little, you know, contentious. And then like, even right after that exchange happens, like you're both angry now about something.
01:15:52
Speaker
And you know that if you had had that conversation in person, the conversation would have gone entirely different. And this is somebody you know and care about and love in real life. And you're just like, there's something about the chemical exchange, the air in the room, whatever it is that happens when you're you're discussing those things, Facebook. And I think it's because that is we're not taking in the nonverbal feedback that we get from other humans. So like if I'm talking to you in person, I'm seeing the emotion on your face.
01:16:20
Speaker
I'm seeing like whether you're tense, like your body language and that sort of thing. And that feedback affects my behavior yeah without that. fee And you're totally right about text. Like i we put we're all all all guilty of it. Like you're a little more harsh on text because we don't have that feedback. can you know controlling our behavior or like affecting how we want to act towards that person.
01:16:43
Speaker
and And so that online, when you don't even know the other person, it's even more freeing to kind of like let loose and unsolicited feedback, negativity, um or even it could go the other way where people are like super flirtatious or, you know, inappropriate. Totally. where you're like, well, this person went, you know, um zero to one hundred really fast because they, they don't have to experience the social consequence. They don't have to see your reaction. They don't have to see the reaction of people in a room. That's true.
01:17:13
Speaker
I think about this sometimes. Cause I, I have received my number of we'll say genitalia photographs and, and this goes both ways.
01:17:25
Speaker
This is not gender specific. This goes both ways. Oh, And so coming through on Instagram, like I do think about that. Like, what if you had just dropped trial in a public space and just like, you're like, Hey, what's good play boy.
01:17:39
Speaker
Like this, what you want cowboy. Like that's not, you know, that's that not, that's not a thing that went. And if it didn't happen, that person would obviously be arrested. Well, let me ask you many people have dropped trial in front of you? Probably zero, right? Zero. Yeah.
01:17:55
Speaker
So,
Ethical Concerns in Content Creation
01:17:56
Speaker
but for some reason that the lack of consequence, and in this case, the consequence is like the awkwardness of the interaction that happens right after. It's like, it disinhibits these people to just be like, ah, let me, let me just shoot my shot.
01:18:11
Speaker
It's like, that's your shot. You could have opened with anything. Yeah.
01:18:18
Speaker
ah Well, Eric, I'm not sure what to say. like Eric's DMs sound very interesting. it's It's a wild game out there. gotta take a peek when you get a chance. They'll show you his DMs. It's entertaining.
01:18:31
Speaker
i've I've already asked Derek a lot about it. My DMs are boring. Oh, man. Okay. So, I mean, we've touched on many differences between the online behavior and real real world behavior, right? We've covered neurotransmitters, how they are like online versus real world. We talked about dopamine versus oxytocin. We've talked about authentic behavior versus performative behavior.
01:18:55
Speaker
Like, are you being true to yourself versus performing for the algorithm as you chase, you know? um We've talked about bad behavior. Like, um are you are you being bad online because you're anonymous? Yeah, yeah. are but Versus versus not.
01:19:17
Speaker
Go ahead, Eric. So here i I knowing all of this about social media, all of the things we've discussed, the negative impacts it can have on people's behavior, the way it can alter the consumer's brain chemistry, the way it can alter the creator's brain chemistry. ye The.
01:19:39
Speaker
The question of ethics about creating content is something that I've been sitting with a lot lately. Okay. Because i don't think what I'm doing, what we're doing is inherently bad for people.
01:19:57
Speaker
But it's impossible, at least at this point, for me to disentangle what I'm doing from the negative components of it. So it's like, give give me an example.
01:20:10
Speaker
The ethics, like what the good, yeah ethics are so the good is easy. You're teaching people how to work. I'm teaching. right and And I think there's real value in self-empowerment. People are learning how to make things. People are learning how to find their voice. All of these, the community aspect of it. What's the bad things that you're concerned about?
01:20:26
Speaker
Well, I affect for my job in order to pay my mortgage, I effectively have to clickbait people. Like I have to, and I have to incorporate corporate sponsorships.
01:20:37
Speaker
I have to get people to engage on a platform that is designed to draw them in and feed them addictive behaviors and, and reinforce their best addictive behaviors. see So like in order for me to go post on Instagram, this is a thing I'm very aware of.
01:20:52
Speaker
I might go on Instagram at 10 30 to post something, to respond to a friend like Paul, you might DM me and I go on there just to respond. Mm-hmm. And then, oops, it's an hour and a half later. I'm like, fuck, it's midnight. Like, I got to get up in the morning.
01:21:08
Speaker
and that And so the same thing from the content creator perspective of like, i am putting out what I think is valuable information. in a package that is laced with reinforcing people's addictive behavior. Because it's the only way you get paid. Because it's the only way that I can make money doing what I think I am best at in the world.
01:21:29
Speaker
So Eric, how are you different than any other company in the United States who's participating in capitalism?
01:21:39
Speaker
Wow, I was not prepared for that question. um
01:21:45
Speaker
Well, this I don't know. living This is how we make a living. Sure, sure. And and so like Coca-Cola is selling you advertisements and giving you a product that's laced with sugar and other substances. And Coke might be a more appropriate um parallel. But the parallel that I was thinking of are are basically like opioids or if that's too strong, maybe maybe beer.
01:22:09
Speaker
right like let's let's just take beer okay let's go let's go with beer yeah so let's take a brewer for example but maybe this person no no no let's take let's somebody who actually makes good fucking no no i was going to use budweiser because it's terrible it's a terrible product and yet they they succeed in the marketplace because of marketing and all these okay insidious fair matters the fun i was i was your ship i was taken i know christ sorry but why i heard I was going to take the other the other side of it. of like Let's take a small brewer.
01:22:38
Speaker
ah Somebody who who is really good at their craft. Mastered their craft. okay and Somebody who really fucking loves beer. like Who is just like, this is I love making beer. I love the social aspect of beer. like People go to bars to socialize with their friends. and We constantly bemoan that nobody's out there socializing with real fucking meat and flesh human beings anymore. Right?
01:23:01
Speaker
So they're creating an atmosphere of friendship and utility. And they, they do this thing that I think is good for the It's ah it's an ancient tradition, right? Like this beer has been around yeah longer than furniture has. It is in ingrained in our DNA. is That's what we do.
01:23:19
Speaker
It's a part, a part of how we survived as a species. Right? Yeah. It gave us clean water to drink and it padded out our caloric needs for the day. Like beer is integral to the success of humanity. And yet there are people. Drink more beer. great there There are people Who have addictions to alcohol.
01:23:39
Speaker
Yeah. We have a name for this driving right home or yeah. And who kill other people because X, Y, or Z related to alcohol. yeah And so they might not be sitting with ethical considerations of what it means to create this substance that can destroy so many lives.
01:23:55
Speaker
I've seen it destroy lives in my family because I come from a strong lineage of alcoholics. So how do you square doing this thing that you both love?
01:24:07
Speaker
And there are positive aspects too, right? Like that is one of our first fundamental places, campfire and sitting around drinking beer and telling stories. That's who we are as a species.
01:24:19
Speaker
And yet you are also creating an atmosphere where people can destroy their lives with the product in the space that you're creating. But do you think what you're promoting with woodworking is the same? I mean, i feel like no your product is sort of less controversial.
01:24:39
Speaker
The negatives are are less negative. Yeah, like I i feel like you're, yeah, you're i agree elevating, well air teaching. but But I think the social media aspect of it is the part where it's like, so I'm teaching people, but I'm using this vehicle that is designed to manipulate them.
01:24:58
Speaker
Okay. I suppose i come back to what Sherry said, which is how is that different than all of capital? Almost every job, almost everything we do has pros and cons associated with it. in in And they're they're laced together in that you can't unravel them necessarily.
01:25:14
Speaker
And you you just said, Eric, how do we square taking in the positives with the associated negatives? And that's because you have a conscience. Yeah. Like you're saying, like, I feel bad about our negatives. I feel bad. But you know what? does Does the company that does the 3D printing company that puts out a 3D printer feel bad about all the plastic waste they're going to put in this world that won't biodegrade for the next 50,000 years?
01:25:46
Speaker
I don't know. Do they? Do the epoxy companies feel bad at night? yeah I mean, all of these things come part and parcel with positives and negatives. And I feel like you're being, i mean, i i don't know how, gen in general, how people feel about handling the negatives, but you have a conscience, which is why I think you're struggling with the negatives.
01:26:06
Speaker
Yeah. And I think like even before social media, there was always marketing and it took different forms, whether it was television, radio, billboards, there's all kinds of different marketing.
01:26:17
Speaker
And it was designed in the same way to capture attention. Whatever formats of media are available, there's always going to be marketing. And so
Curating a Healthier Social Media Experience
01:26:25
Speaker
think if anyone should be struggling with conscience, it would more be the platforms in terms of the algorithms that are creating the addictive nature. You're creating something that's bad thing. It's not my fault I'm an addict. It's somebody else's.
01:26:40
Speaker
Yeah, like, well, you you're creating, you're promoting a product that is not, I can't see, like, a negative angle to, like, what you guys are doing. um Whereas, like, maybe if you're promoting alcohol, like, there you know, that's it's a different story because, like, it's There's cancer risks, there's like addiction risks and things like that.
01:26:58
Speaker
But the product that you're promoting doesn't seem to have any inherent bad value. it's i don't feel like you should feel take on the guilt that's actually more the responsibility of the platform and how they produce that algorithm, though their lack of transparency,
01:27:17
Speaker
and their business practices, that's that's on them. And we're just functioning within that ecosystem I don't disagree. I don't disagree.
01:27:29
Speaker
And i I want to say this is not a thing that's like keeping me up at night. It's just a thing that I'm like, i I do think it is our responsibility to contend with the moral and ethical dilemmas of the things that we put into the world.
01:27:46
Speaker
yeah And if not, then the only thing that matters is how much money you make. And A, that's not a life I want to live, but also like that's, that's how you end up with food porn on the internet. You know, like it just becomes an addictive cycle.
01:27:59
Speaker
Well, and I think also like, I think it's important for users of social media, whether you're ah content creator or a consumer of it to be aware of how these platforms operate, the decisions that they're making, um whether there are aspects of their business plan that might be toxic and pushing back on that where it needs to be pushed back on.
01:28:25
Speaker
Not to be blind to it, I guess. Inform yourself about how do these platforms work? What are the things that are kind of not ethical that they're doing? And yeah, like being engaged in that, being aware of that. But i don't I don't feel like there's anything inherently sort of toxic about leveraging the various forms of media that are available to us, even though there are aspects of social media that can be toxic. And maybe you we're going to transition shortly into kind of like, yeah how can we become...
01:28:59
Speaker
healthier consumers of social media to where we can protect ourselves from the toxic aspects of it. And I think this is where users, whether you're a consumer or a creator, can take control over protecting yourselves from those negative aspects. All right. So, Sherry, you said it.
01:29:17
Speaker
We've talked a lot about the risks associated with social media and the negatives. Let's end on a positive note. Yeah. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like some people quit social media, right? They're like, uh, I love the announcement posts. If any listeners have done the announcement posts. Oh, I love it. I absolutely eat it up.
01:29:38
Speaker
Uh, I'm quitting Instagram. So you guys won't be hearing from me ever again. just going to take a break. all Right. ahhu and then three months later they're back exactly so more like two one week later they're yeah so we have we have the announcement quitters who always inevitably come back and I'm sure there's someone out there who's like I never came back and but Oh, yeah. Well, they won't be listening.
01:30:03
Speaker
um Everyone always comes back to social media. So let's not throw the baby out with bathwater here. Right. It's it's here to stay. i think it's a net positive. So then the question becomes short of just quitting.
01:30:16
Speaker
What are some what can we do? What are some behaviors we can engage in, Sheriff, from a psychological point of view that just can make this whole thing healthier for us? Yeah. So to your point, you know, there are some people who do the detox and it's not a bad thing, but social media is kind of the new town square. So we kind of have to live with it and figure out how we're what our relationship with this is going to be.
01:30:38
Speaker
So one thing I would say as a consumer of social media is to curate your fee. So we don't have to take in all the algorithm is throwing at us. We can actually be very proactive. And so I think of this in two ways is curate your feed in terms of what's consistent with your values and second, how content makes you feel.
01:31:05
Speaker
So in terms of values, let's take values. So many, so many boob jokes. Yeah. So many boob jokes. I don't know what they are, but but I have to.
01:31:16
Speaker
But anyways, and not jokes. But anyways, you guys really take things off track. But anyways, but so like values, values, values, values.
01:31:27
Speaker
So values is like, is the... is Are things that I'm... Because here, like we talked about earlier, you click on something once and you're going to get a fire hose of that content. Like I i remember i was scrolling. That's right.
01:31:39
Speaker
And there's like a reel about like a tsunami. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. I've never seen like... I want to see a tsunami hit something. And next thing you know, I'm getting all these tsunami reels. Like I don't i don't want to like spend my life staring at tsunamis.
01:31:52
Speaker
So being very... mindful about is is the content that I'm clicking on consistent with my values. Am I learning from it? Is it making me a better person? Is it improving my craft?
01:32:05
Speaker
Is it, is it somehow elevating me and muting the people who bring you irritation on an almost daily basis? Well, and that's the emotions driven approach. So and i do Talk about me like that, Paul. What I'm looking at, is it making me feel better? Is it making me feel motivated? Or is it making me feel angry? So the rage, am I getting baited into rage?
01:32:29
Speaker
and Is it making me feel sad? Is it keeping me stuck in a negative mood that I might be in? um Because if you are in a negative mood and you click on something you know um that's going to produce more content about that, be mindful that this may be sort of like...
01:32:46
Speaker
cementing you in that headspace. So thinking like, how can I unfollow, not click, resist the urge to click on things that are making me feel bad so that your feed, and this can to even come down to um people that you follow. So we did a study, um a graduate student of mine led it, and we looked at people who were sever ties on social media. So this is where you're unfollowing or unfriending people.
01:33:12
Speaker
And we wanted to know, is this a good thing or is this a bad thing? Because on the one hand, some people are like, oh, if you unfollow a lot of people, you create an echo chamber. But what we found was that people who actually do more trimming of their social media following and like what they're looking at actually feel better about their social media experience because they're putting...
01:33:34
Speaker
negativity out of their daily scrolling habits. And so, and then they're just preserving things that make them feel. Now, whether they're in an echo chamber or not, it's not the point.
01:33:45
Speaker
It's just that they report feeling better. Right. Like, so you don't have to feel compelled to listen to things that don't make you feel good just because you're like, oh, I don't want to be in an echo chamber. like That whole echo chamber thing, and I don't know how feel about that because like you you don't necessarily want to be surrounded by things that make you feel bad. It's one thing to like you know expose yourself to different viewpoints, but that doesn't mean you have to expose yourself to negativity. Yeah, to think so make you feel rage on a daily basis. So think about your values. Think about your moods. You don't want your social experience, social media experience to make you feel like crap. That's when we see, you know, you see these studies like social media can like be associated with depression, anxiety and that sort of thing, or like feeling bad about your body or like whatever you're looking at. So I think taking a more mindful approach can be helpful. all right. How do you guys go about...
01:34:35
Speaker
ah curating what you're looking at. I know you're producers, but how do you curate what you're looking at? I i mute or I unfollow. and I do. I'm a big like, I do it all the time. Unfollow block. i wish that I was mindful enough to do some of that. What I've noticed is interestingly over the last two months or so, um my entire algorithm has changed. Um,
01:35:03
Speaker
which is really interesting. Um, well, I mean, we don't have to get into it in a public space, but you know, I happened two months ago. Yeah. And, uh, yeah, like almost overnight, my entire feed on Instagram changed.
01:35:17
Speaker
Huh? I don't. And so this is right. so this is where thought in the after show. Sure. Sure. I feel like most people, most of our patrons are also patrons of mine, so they know what's going on.
01:35:30
Speaker
But um it's that's one of those moments where you feel the ghost in the machine of like, what did I do? yeah Or how did it know? Because it really it felt like literally overnight, the the types of reels that I was getting fed went from one side of the relationship coin to the other side of it. And it was like, it's almost fascinating.
01:35:54
Speaker
Yes. I, well, it's in like, I've had that same experience too. And it's, it's definitely like tracking, like what you're clicking on and then it can keep you kind of mired in that head space. Yes. And at some point you're going to be like, I need to resist the temptation to click on anything. That's going to keep this fire hose of this subject matter yeah because I need to move yeah forward.
01:36:20
Speaker
And it's,
Personal Anecdotes and Social Media Evolution
01:36:21
Speaker
kind of preventing that. So that, that, and it's hard because you're attracted to things that you resonate with, but you want to be careful that like, if it's resonating with something that I'm struggling with, then it so it may be locking me in that situation.
01:36:36
Speaker
And it's really interesting to me how, like in, in the, that particular moment, your kind of, um, spiraling, but like the,
01:36:50
Speaker
like impulsively clicking on things, right? Like you're watching things almost without processing them because your brain is somewhere else and how quickly, like literally overnight within a day or two that changes everything that doing. That's crazy.
01:37:04
Speaker
That's what was really interesting to me. I've had some embarrassment associated with my clicking behaviors. ah you I do click on boobies. This happened. lot with so so We know a lot of boobies.
01:37:19
Speaker
i don't remember I don't remember what it was, but apparently I clicked like on something. And now now Instagram shows you if your friends have liked something. That's definitely a way of shaming people into not liking certain things, right? And then you find out. Someone DM'd me and was like, I can't believe you liked that video.
01:37:42
Speaker
And I didn't even... I can't wait find out what it is. I don't remember what it was, I can't even tell you. But I remember thinking, oh my God, did I actually click like on that?
01:37:53
Speaker
Like, that's not okay. Like, I was embarrassed. And i don't I don't remember clicking like on it. I don't remember what it was, but I remember the feeling of humiliation. That other... Like, that my liking something, like, you know, was noticed by someone else. And I didn't...
01:38:11
Speaker
I don't remember. You know, you're making a good point that what you like does get exposed. It does? Yeah, the veil of anonymity has been lifted. has. And so now, um and then again, like occasionally, i will, like if I'm on the explore page,
01:38:28
Speaker
I'll click on, let's say a cute girl just because it's like in the biology. Lizard brain shit. Yeah, I will. Yes, I will lizard brain it. I'll click on it. Next thing I know the next day, my explore feed, which is usually full of like patterns and woodworking and and art is full of chair. It is.
01:38:45
Speaker
And then Vicky's like coming over to like say goodbye or something. And like my explore feed is full of chicks and she's, you know, and I'm like, I'm sure that looks good. it was like a moment of lizard brain and the algorithm completely fucked me in the explore page now.
01:39:01
Speaker
And I'm like, oh God, now what? Now what do I do? I look like, you know, that makes you look terrible. well It's all because you like that one post. Like that's it. There's no nuance with the algorithm, you know? Yeah.
01:39:13
Speaker
Yeah. awesome If you like something once, you like it, like a you want 400 times the amount of it, but like to move on to the next piece of advice. So the first thing we could do is just be more, be more discerning. Resist the temptation. Don't rage. Click. Okay. What's the second thing? Click. Don't depression. Click. Okay. click I mean, unless you want a lot of boobies, like, I don't know. Like, you do you. um The second thing is um smaller communities are going to create richer experiences. So, you know, like the the um give some examples. So like in my well catreon in my experience, so patron um Patreon's a good example. Like if you're on Facebook, I really love private Facebook groups that are
01:40:05
Speaker
It's subject matter specific. And so then all the conversations are very rich about a particular topic. So it's not just like a free for all where like people are like arguing politics, like none of that gets into it.
01:40:19
Speaker
when you're in a content specific community, people actually are really good about staying on, on like on subject. So, so I think those types of communities, and be curious about your experiences with communities that are more like content specific. where yeah I think it's both true, Cher, what you said.
01:40:40
Speaker
So first of all, the woodworking community on Instagram is one of the nicest communities I've ever found. Every percent. I mean, So overwhelmingly, 99.9% of the people I interact with are amazing.
01:40:54
Speaker
They're thoughtful. They're usually pretty kind. They're generous. They're curious. they they They want to give you compliments. They want to see what you do. They want to exchange information with you. It's it's a wonderful community. So I think already, Sherry, you're talking about the woodworking community as an already narrowed niche, as opposed to like all of Facebook, you know, that kind of thing. But even furthermore, there are sub niches of that, which is like a person's Patreon even gets more private or like the woodworking is bullshit.
01:41:27
Speaker
Patreon. up Like there are conversations that go on in our podcast Patreon page that are way even more vulnerable, more private, more sacred than just like average Instagram. So I totally see what you're saying.
01:41:41
Speaker
Yeah. And I think that you're going to have a higher likelihood of those relationships leading to more than just clicks and likes and that sort of thing. I would agree. where like And I've had that experience myself in those types of communities.
01:41:55
Speaker
There are people that then I've met in person that I consider myself friends. And we joke. We're like, we met on social media. And now this person is a close, dear friend of mine.
01:42:05
Speaker
And so that leads us to those like back to the beginning of like those oxytocin experiences rather than just the anonymous clicks and dopamine hits. And you and I met through personal ad in a newspaper. Yeah, so we met actually through India. Fucking what was 1927? What the fuck? not even joking. I'm not even joking. But that's another story for another time. Yeah. Okay. So that's the after show. The second thing we can do, right.
01:42:33
Speaker
Is smaller communities, like size down specific content areas. Another thing I would say is kind of managing your time on social media. And that I think, it Because there's so much to see, it can really sort of um monopolize our attention.
01:42:49
Speaker
And so you want to be mindful of like, how much time am I spending on this? And is it taking me away from more substantive social experiences? Eric, you do that. How do you mean?
01:43:01
Speaker
I don't. Didn't you for a while give yourself only one hour of Instagram time a day or something? I still I still have the timer on there. Yeah. So that's so great now. So that's a tricky thing, though, because, again, it being my job.
01:43:15
Speaker
um I have to take breaks and go on there. And i I know immediately, as soon as I hit take a 15 minute break so I can go post a story or do whatever, then like that takes me three minutes.
01:43:27
Speaker
And then just the other 12 minutes, you're just like, I don't know what the fuck's going. I see Jenny post a picture. Then I see Paul post the greatest fucking story of all time, by the way, today.
01:43:37
Speaker
Greatest thing I've ever seen on the end. I want to see it. Paul wearing a triple XS t-shirt for Justin's, uh, the call me maybe new line of hers. It's amazing. It's amazing. No, no, it's great. So, so, so shit like that happens. And then like, you have a good laugh and then I'm texting Paul and then, you know, then I'm binging real different. Yeah. But that see, I feel like that's fundamentally different.
01:44:03
Speaker
Binging reels. Not great. You're not going to feel good. Yeah. Texting your friend, laughing together about a ridiculous, Moment. So much better. i agree 100%. And my issue with Instagram as a platform right now is, and maybe I'm just going to be crotchety old man.
01:44:24
Speaker
The thing that they did really well 10 years ago was give everybody that experience. And then when you wanted to scroll, you could go to the explore page and scroll.
01:44:36
Speaker
Your feed was people that you follow that you wanted to be in community with that you wanted to talk to. And then you could seek out the experience of scrolling. And now it's so enmeshed that like the moment I open Instagram, I am aware that it's so easy to get sucked down the rabbit holes.
01:44:56
Speaker
You know, so like I might be texting you one second and then I close the messages and then all of a sudden it's just boobies again. And I'm like, I don't even know where they came from. Oh my God. So all the listeners, I am so sorry for Eric's boobie fascination today. I don't know what's going on.
01:45:13
Speaker
Don't put this on Eric. i Yeah. bring them Yeah. You're the one in a sausage casing. I was out here getting hot and heavy watching that, buddy. Okay. On
Closing Remarks and Episode Summary
01:45:22
Speaker
that note, Cher, have we, um do you have any other ah solutions or lets let's, let's go back, curate your feed, smaller, smaller um communities and manage your time spent better on social media.
01:45:35
Speaker
Yes. Those are the top. I think those are the most important things. And if you're going to kind of go down the rabbit hole of reels, make it something light and funny that is like a stress reduction. You know, like I remember when my daughter was a little bit younger, like we would just go and look at videos of people slipping on the ice because it would make us laugh hysterically. We would lay in bed and we're watching people slip on the ice.
01:46:01
Speaker
And for like this would just make us laugh till like we were crying. and it was a great way to sort of like... release the stress of the day. So yeah, kind of thinking about it that way. and positive How do I you know keep this positive and and make it like a stress reduction, not take me down a bad road?
01:46:19
Speaker
yeah Well, everyone, I hope you've enjoyed today's episode about the positives, the negatives of social media, but more from the perspective as of a psychologist and talking about the brain chemistry associated with it. I found that to be very interesting.
01:46:36
Speaker
So thank you, Sherry. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Sherry. So, Eric, you have ah a little message from WTB Woodworking? From our Lord and Savior, Billy M.T. Burkle. Is that right?
01:46:47
Speaker
ah so This episode is brought to you again WTV Woodworking. um So friends, this will come out kind of mid-October, I believe. And Bill's having the one-year anniversary, the celebration, Saturday, October 25th from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m.
01:47:07
Speaker
guys come out, you get some free food, there's some giveaways, there's a bunch of sales. ah you know He's selling Shaper, he's selling Festool, he's selling Maffel. He also, don't forget,
01:47:19
Speaker
is a ah creator and distributor of slabs and hardwood and sheet goods. So if you guys need something in that realm, he's got plenty of local materials and he is in Huntington Valley, 390 Pike Road, Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania.
01:47:36
Speaker
um So go check him out. Tell him I sent you. I'll probably be there. I know KJ is going to be there as well. um So come, if nothing else, ah just make fun of Keith Johnson for an hour or so.
01:47:47
Speaker
Always a good time. All right. um If you want the video feed, ah all you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon. If you want the after show, all you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon.
01:48:01
Speaker
It's that simple. chickadey chickadety Check it out, y'all. We appreciate your support. And Sherry, thanks again for helping us through this conversation. Thank you very much. Excellent. I'm sorry I derailed it with so much booby talk, but I feel it was imperative to the comedic aspect of the show. Relevant to the shift in the last two months. Okay, on that note, we'll see you in the episode. Bye. Okay, bye.