Transcript
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and Greetings and salutations, woodworking world.
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is your favorite not woodworking podcast. ah Woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And we have two co-hosts in the chair today.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We have my man, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator. And with us, our friend who you may recognize if you're on the video feed, Jen Pyrography Extraordinaire Diorenzo.
Jen: Hello.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So today's episode, ah we're recording actually because of Jen. Jen brought this question to me that like last week and she felt pretty passionate about it.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so let's begin with the question for today's episode. Now, We've talked about pricing your work before. And the the specific episode was price point, um how to increase price point and the moral and ethical considerations of doing so. That was our first attempt at price point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I think you remember that was with Jack, who's like, one way to increase the price point is to just increase.
E-lectronic mail: Is to just have the best voice in podcasting.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: is to just increase the fucking price point and stop being a stop being a little bitch and grow a sack. So that that was the advice from that episode. But Jen came up...
Jen: You will not be hearing that from me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There's always time, folks. We can turn this around. If we get Jen to speak in a sexy voice, we'll consider that a win for today.
E-lectronic mail: If we get Jen to call somebody a little bitch, I will retire from podcasting because I will have accomplished my dreams.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm pretty sure I can...
Jen: your dreams. Oh, you poor thing.
E-lectronic mail: It's a low bar, but I feel pretty good about it.
Jen: You poor thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm pretty sure I can exasperate Jen to the point that you'll call me a little bitch. I'm almost positive.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i bet.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i bet. um You call me a big fat turd. I mean, is that that different?
Jen: yeah
E-lectronic mail: Is it? Is it? Let's dive into the ethical considerations here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it but Okay. So what Jen brought up is a different pricing idea, which is should you design your pieces to to a price point, meaning think of a price point and design the piece to match that price point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And so today we're gonna talk about Is designing to a price point a good idea, a bad idea? What are the implications of doing so? I think the three of us may have actually different ideas about this.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So the first thing I want to do, and before, don't you fucking explain a thing. Listen, what I want to know is, do you typically design to a price point? Yes or no? Save the explanations for later.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay? So Jen, do you design to a price point typically?
Jen: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jen: so Sometimes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sometimes what, no, sometimes Jen.
E-lectronic mail: but She's already qualifying it. It's like hard maybe.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Jen, what percent of the time let's, let's do a percent rather than yes or no. What percent of the time do you design to a price point?
Jen: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And what percent of the time do you just leave it open?
Jen: Let's say 50-50.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. Eric, what is your percentage?
E-lectronic mail: That's such a hard question because um um I'm going to do my best not to qualify this. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah your' I can tell you're teeing it up.
E-lectronic mail: But... but
Jen: Yeah, it's coming.
E-lectronic mail: but But I would say no with the asterisk of I typically work on commission and they by definition have a price that we've already settled on. So kind of.
E-lectronic mail: But i don't I don't consider that the the the primary concern in the design process. So that's why I'm saying no.
Jen: And that's why I said the same thing. Only I just chose not to explain it like Paul said.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. All right.
Jen: So.
E-lectronic mail: I... Well, fuck Paul. Like, I do what I won't.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: he's a little He's a little bitch.
E-lectronic mail: I'm a salty little bitch. Paul, do you design to a price point?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sometimes I would say I'm about 50-50-ish.
E-lectronic mail: Oh, you literally just said we're all going to disagree and then we had the same fucking answer. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, I said I design to a price point more often than you do, bitch.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. All right. Touche.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Why coming after me?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, so let's start then, Jen, let's start with um some, I think we should talk about why would people design to a price point?
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, why is that a good thing to do?
Jen: So... if we're we're going to start there, ah i think the main point of designing to a price point is so that your piece sells faster.
Jen: If you are designing to, let's say, a low price point, something that you know will sell real quick, I'm more motivated to do that if I want to get it out of my studio faster.
Jen: you know what i mean?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I do.
Jen: If I, yeah. So kind of like Eric was saying, though, like, I would say 50% at least, if not more, of my work is commission-based.
Jen: And ah do a lot of pet portraits. I know people don't want to be spending major bank on something like that. So i kind of have set prices that I know will sell, that I know I can easily do yes and get a yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That you'll get a yes.
Jen: Like, it's... Nine times out of 10, people say, yes, I can take that price and I'll get the job done and get it out.
E-lectronic mail: Now, how how did you come up with that price?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So you've already... Go ahead, Eric.
E-lectronic mail: Is that you threw a price out there and somebody said yes, and then you realize it took you way too many hours to do that, so you had to up your price over time and experience? Or is it you looking at the market and seeing what other people are selling pet portraits for and working within those boundaries?
Jen: The first thing you said, because honestly, I don't actually know what other people are charging for pet portraits. It's not like there's master guide online anywhere.
Jen: And most artists that at least I've checked out don't have their prices actually listed on their website because they want to be able to kind of judge the situation Not necessarily like see, oh, do you think I can charge more from this person or not?
Jen: But just like, at least with the work that I do, like certain like hair textures will take me longer and I'll charge a little bit more for something like that versus like a smooth coat dog.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Jen, why actually you bring up a, and we'll come back to design to a price point for a sec.
Jen: So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You bring up an interesting point that I've always wondered about. Why is everyone so chicken shit to publish their prices?
E-lectronic mail: Because then you can't charge people who can afford your work more money.
Jen: That's an excellent question.
E-lectronic mail: It's as simple as that.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
E-lectronic mail: i mean right like like I mean, listen, what what we are doing is we are um creating products that are not scalable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Really?
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: So we're trying to price it as though it's a product that's repeatable, but the thing that we're doing is by hand, and so it's not...
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm.
E-lectronic mail: Scalable by definition. So we have to do it one at a time. And what that means is you're going to have an average price point for some people. That's going to be a stretch. And for you as the the person and I should I should speak from the first person for me as the the creative person behind the the piece.
E-lectronic mail: Um, sometimes I'm going to make decisions that make it go over time and over budget. And that's the choice I make. And that's balanced out by people who can pay more for similar object.
E-lectronic mail: So it all comes out in the wash. So those, that I think that's why people don't do it is they are trying to basically subsidize their income by, uh, uh, having a kind of sliding price scale for lack of a better way to phrase it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay. So Eric, do you think that by publishing all my prices on my website for the last five years, is that making a mistake or locking me in?
Jen: Yeah, that's...
E-lectronic mail: No, because you can always raise those prices. But maybe because then, you know, somebody who wants a thing that you don't want to make, there's the fuck it price is a real thing, right?
E-lectronic mail: And like, if you don't want to make the thing, but they see you've already charged $400 for that box, and then you come around and you go, well, that box is going to be $1,000.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, yes.
E-lectronic mail: They're like, well, what the fuck, man?
E-lectronic mail: You're not going to get that sale.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i So I think what I've done is I've increased my prices on my website over time to reflect where I'm at. And I reprice the entire, I reprice things on the website, like over, you know, they these are the prices you see now are not my seven year ago price.
Jen: Right now for the pieces that you have are your, I don't want to do this ever again pieces that you have say listed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I usually double the price.
E-lectronic mail: yeah
Jen: So if somebody comes to you though and says, will you make me that for that price?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jen: Are you still willing to do it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The old price?
Jen: No, whatever price you have listed on your website, the new.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, ah so I put the fuck it price on something and someone's like, hey, would you make that?
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, i would.
Jen: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, you and I have two teaboxes on my website with fuck it prices on them because you and I don't want to do them again.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah. Yeah.
Jen: ah Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But would we? Would we? We absolutely would.
Jen: Yes. Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: Well, so, so what, what's the difference?
Jen: You're right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, we would.
E-lectronic mail: Like, so what you're effectively doing by, by doing that is you're honing in on the same group of people who can afford that work and want to pay you for that work without, without like, you're doing it kind of preemptively.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I suppose.
E-lectronic mail: So you're not doing anything different.
Jen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, I think I cater to the higher price ah group. And then if if I want to give a discount, I can. And it makes people feel great. Like if I want to make the sale to a person who doesn't have as much disposable income, I can always discount it.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, sure.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then everything else is like, you know, regular price. Anyway, sorry. I just was curious. Like I'm always... perplexed by how taboo pricing is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I just don't feel like it should be as taboo, which is why I publish my prices. Everyone can see them. All the other inward workers can see what I charge on my website, like in the half or...
E-lectronic mail: But we, we just, we have a thing in American society about talking about money. People don't like to do it. We like to keep it secret. And you know, like 200 years ago, it was the, the trade secrets that you kept under a blanket.
E-lectronic mail: Somebody would walk through your shop and you throw a blanket over your work so they couldn't see what you were working on or how you were going to do it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Right now it's money.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: human Humans, humans.
E-lectronic mail: Now, now it's, it's protecting how much I'm going to charge for this so that you can't undercut me by $10. You can't, you can't prices write me, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Now humans, humans. Okay. Back to, back to business. So I asked Jen, why would someone want to design to a price point?
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And your answer was basically because they know they have a sale. It like guarantees the sale, right?
Jen: Yes.
Jen: And if you do enough of it and you get enough product out of your studio, it's also going to help kind of build your notoriety for your work.
Jen: And if you the more people you get recognizing your work, maybe then you can start designing to higher price points down the road.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: So as I was reading your your notes and your questions, the first thing that jumped out at me is the question of scale, because it seems like you're flirting with this one-off versus product like situation.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: you know like
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Let's take the concept as the product, maybe, like the pet portrait. You've done a million pet portraits. You know roughly how long it's going to take. You can upcharge slightly. But so, so you can put those in a price bracket. You have ah a rough guideline on how to price those.
E-lectronic mail: Um, but the, the thing that you're describing is I couldn't tell if you are talking about designing an object to a price point for a one-off or for a thing that you are going to make repeatedly because that changes things, but it changes the way that you approach it.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, either, actually.
Jen: o Yeah, I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Either.
E-lectronic mail: I think, well, so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, go ahead, Eric.
Jen: I... Go
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How? Oh, there's Jen.
Jen: doc go ahead, Eric.
E-lectronic mail: So I think if you are making a one-off, you kind of understand innately that you're probably going to eat some of the time. whether it's in the design time, whether it's in a, I thought it was going in this direction.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Now it's going into this direction, or I made a mistake because I, I, you know, I wasn't sure how to do this. So now I'm doing it this different way.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: You're going to eat that, which means you're going to lose profitability. If you are designing a product, what you are doing that first time is your prototyping.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mmm.
E-lectronic mail: And so by the time you hit you, what you're looking at is designing to the price point of once you've, uh, um,
Jen: True.
E-lectronic mail: for lack of a better phrase, like effectively maximized efficiency.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: um And so that changes the way that you approach the pricing structure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
Jen: I agree, yes. But if you are making a piece that is just meant to be one-off, that's it, no more. Like, it doesn't need to be a prototype.
E-lectronic mail: Hmm.
Jen: This is the only piece that you're going to do. I would hope that I would not eat my time. Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to be able to charge something that'll make it worthwhile because this will be one-of-a-kind special thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Whoo!
Jen: So, like, for instance, Paul and I are brainstorming new collaboration, um and we plan on just... I plan on only making one of these.
Jen: I don't know if Paul has the same idea or not, but we're kind of stuck right now deciding, do we want to have full on creative freedom with this or do we want this to sell fast?
Jen: In which case we would need to kind of stifle our creativity to a point because if we go crazy, we'll have to charge more. But my question is, like, when you go crazy, or maybe I'll ask it as a question.
Jen: When you have total creative freedom over something, and you're giving it the best of everything that you've got, talent-wise, skill-wise, and you're posting that on your social media, do you find that those type of pieces – get better views, better interaction, more interest in purchasing that item rather than the pieces that are more simple with lower price point.
E-lectronic mail: God, that's a hard question.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. The pieces where I've really reached have not realized the price I hoped they would.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: Really?
E-lectronic mail: I don't think they ever do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Consistently.
Jen: now
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: They have not. Whereas the pieces that I thought were really good, like kind of me like upper medium, like medium, but like upper medium, like really solid have recognized prices above what I expected.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So like when I go for the max, I never get it.
Jen: Really?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But if I just, if I'm like, yeah, let's do really good. Sometimes it it hits like bonus land.
Jen: How do you get to bonus land, though?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's weird.
Jen: It's not like they're going to offer more than what you are asking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, right. Like, I'll sell one, and then the next one I'll charge more, and the next person will say, absolutely. I love that box so much.
Jen: Okay, so so it's not a one-off thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then the next one, even more. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, it's like two or three.
Jen: So what would you do, though, for, like, say this next project? I don't know if you want to say what it is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh with you and me? you could You could talk about it.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's a traveling bar.
Jen: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like a traveling liquor box.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, Eric, do you remember we saw that at the...
Jen: Yes. ah Yeah, Winother.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Winterthur.
E-lectronic mail: Hell yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Do you remember?
E-lectronic mail: Hell yeah, man.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh okay.
E-lectronic mail: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So for the for the audience who doesn't know this, right around the time COVID had just kind of let up and the first, you know, like the world was sort of opening again, I took a trip down the East Coast.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And on my trip, Jen and and Eric both live in Pennsylvania. And i stopped and visited both of them. And we we all went to the Winterthur Museum together one day, the three of us.
E-lectronic mail: Can I just say, Jen, you were a delight. You are a delight. I was reasonably convinced after that day that you would never speak to me again.
E-lectronic mail: i was afraid that I had offended you so.
Jen: No, it takes a whole lot to offend me. Seriously.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Dude, if she's friends with me, you know you're in the clear.
E-lectronic mail: that's well that That's what I was like, ah, she likes this guy.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So,
Jen: Look at this. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: So, you know.
Jen: ah
E-lectronic mail: um Yeah, but at that winter, their museum.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As we were at Winterthur, Jen and I were we were walking through one of the rooms and, Jen, was it you who spied the liquor box?
Jen: I think it was, yeah, because I took pictures of it because I just, I don't know, there was something about it that I loved. And yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was like ah it was like a traveling bar, right? Like like a travel like a traveling, ah like a but a satchel almost with like four compartments and like a nice top and um you could put your bar.
Jen: Yeah. It was like a bar and a purse, basically.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: You know how good that's going to sell?
Jen: See, so that's where we're at.
E-lectronic mail: A bar and a purse?
Jen: that's where we're at
E-lectronic mail: All right, but here's the thing.
Jen: Do we go full crazy and make it everything that we want to be and hope that it'll sell at that price that matches all of our time and effort that we put into it?
E-lectronic mail: It's...
E-lectronic mail: it's a gamble, right? It's like sitting down at the poker table.
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: It's, it's do you... do you put all your cards or all your chips into the table and you go like, i'm going to ride this one out because it only takes one. It only takes one person to be like, fuck, I need a bar and a purse, you know?
E-lectronic mail: And, and then that, and that person, but, but here's, that this is, this is like, this is the tricky thing about what I was talking about.
Jen: That's what we need to call it now.
E-lectronic mail: Like scalability. Is it a product or is it a one-off? Because if it's a one-off, if it's a one-off,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: One off.
Jen: That's a one-off.
E-lectronic mail: then you need one person who loves your work to go, not only do I love Jen, not only do I love Paul, I love when they collaborate.
E-lectronic mail: And this is a really interesting idea. And I want to be a part of this and I want to support them. And that invariably brings the price point up because you're doing something interesting and unique that you don't know how to do.
E-lectronic mail: And you're exploring and pushing yourself. And those people like... We call them patrons for a reason, right? Those are the people who are like, I want you to do shit that makes you a better artist.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: And I'm willing to fund your, your exploratory process. If it's a product and now Jen and Paul are not the focal point, then you have to start to consider how people are going to react to the object itself and not you. Cause you are no longer linked to the story of the object.
Jen: I think we definitely always try to have or share our story too behind our pieces because I do think that helps sell things.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, it, it, no, a hundred percent people.
Jen: At least in my experience. Yeah. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: don't remember who said it, but like it's, it's a well-known saying that, that people buy the artist, not the art people are invested in you as the creative person and they want to support you as the creative person.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, you make good points.
E-lectronic mail: But, but if you're not, if it's going to be a thing, The more you make, the more it becomes removed from you. And so you price it differently.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: And you think about what the price is going to sell the 30th, the 50th, 100th time you make it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's so good. Eric, that's really great fucking advice.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good job.
E-lectronic mail: Thanks, buddy. I've been making shit for a while.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It hurts me a little. It hurts me to say that.
E-lectronic mail: When I'm right. ah
Jen: Paul just died a little inside.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, that was so good, Eric.
E-lectronic mail: It happens. It happens.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: But so, so, all right. So another question that I had, if I may cut Paul off, uh, is the, the bracket. So are you trying to design to in Jen, I'm asking you this specifically about this project.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: Um, are you trying to design to a price point or a price bracket? So let's put it this way.
Jen: oh
E-lectronic mail: You walk into a craft show. And there are different tiers of craft shows, right? So let's say you walk into like a craft fair. It's outdoors. It's in a tent. There are people selling knickknacks and spoons and CNC'd signs.
E-lectronic mail: The bracket that that person is willing to impulse buy something Maybe, maybe up to a hundred bucks, $10 to a hundred dollars.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Over a hundred dollars. People are going to be like, ah, not today. I got to think about it. A, uh, craft show, like the, the PMA, the Philadelphia, uh, something, something craft show.
E-lectronic mail: Um, that show people might impulse buy, piece that's anywhere from 300 to 3000.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: You know, so, so what type of audience are you trying to put this in? What context does it live in? And what bracket are you working to sell? Because if you're saying, I want to sell this for $99, whatever the object, let's take the purse out of it.
E-lectronic mail: I want to sell this for $99. That's a hard thing to hit.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And you got to go through a lot of iterations before you come out with that product. But if you're trying to say, I think it's going to be somewhere between $500 and $800, that's a window that's a little bit easier to hit. And then you have some leeway where you can maybe upsell like, hey, the Ash is $500, but the walnut is
Jen: who I guess so. All of our work collaborations have just been put onto Instagram.
Jen: That's like our craft fair. And on social media, you kind of have the whole spectrum looking at your stuff, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
Jen: So I don't know if I can fairly give a price bracket aiming for a particular product. set of people. Okay.
E-lectronic mail: I'm going to push back on you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right
E-lectronic mail: I don't think that's true because you both have enough of an audience and have sold enough pieces on the internet that you know roughly what your price bracket is.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I know that this liquor box is not going to be any less than $2,000. I know it's in the multiple thousands.
E-lectronic mail: Sure. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I know that because there's no way with what we've talked about doing with Jen, like putting pyrography, like imagery all over it and like beautiful like drawers and openness and fall front that like there's just and like custom leather, like strap over the shoulder.
E-lectronic mail: okay
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like there's just no way we're going to be able to do that for less than a few, several thousand, like a few thousand.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. So what are we talking?
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: Give me, give me a range here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I mean, without knowing anything, i would think, you know, $3,000, $4,000 price range is probably what that that's what I had in my head.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Let's call it, let's call it $3,000 to $5,000. Okay. We got it.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: We got it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, what did you have in your head?
Jen: probably about the same.
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
Jen: And I wasn't talking like a whole spectrum of trying to appeal to the $99 crowd all the way up to the $8,000.
E-lectronic mail: Sure. Sure. I was just, was throwing out random numbers just like have different brackets of things.
Jen: Right. But like, so this is where we're stuck. Like, do we want to aim for that $5,000 or do we want to try to keep it to the $2,000? Because I kind of feel like that's, that's a bit of a range, right?
Jen: Like,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, it is.
E-lectronic mail: Sure. Well, okay. So let's, let's think about the audience that you both have on Instagram as, um, what type of audience, like what type of show you're at?
E-lectronic mail: Paul, have you sold a $2,000 piece on Instagram?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: Jen?
Jen: Yeah, with him.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Have you, have you sold a $3,000 piece on Instagram?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yes
Jen: Yes, with him.
E-lectronic mail: Four?
Jen: I don't think we know.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Okay. So now we're talking, so we were kind of finding what the upper range of what your audience is willing to do. Now, if you have a thing that you think is like special, it's interesting, it's unique, and you are able to articulate to, again, it just takes the one person.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: If you're not making a product, you did sell 4,000.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, sorry. Yes. Yes.
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: So, so
Jen: What did we do?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i saw I sold up to six at six once.
Jen: You did.
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: So, so we have that range of what your audience is willing to absorb.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Once. Once. Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Of course, but it only takes one, you know? So if you have that range, now we know this is not a craft fair range. They're willing to invest in you as an artist, Paul. They're willing to invest in you as an artist, Jen.
E-lectronic mail: So can you make this thing in that window of three to five and you go like, okay, I know it's going to end up somewhere in here and I feel like somebody is going to take it up.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Without a doubt.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: From my perspective, my approach, and this is not...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What should we do?
E-lectronic mail: that What I would do is just make the fucking thing and look at it at the end and just go like... but like You can you've both have enough experience to just kind of read the thing and go like, is somebody going to spend $4,700 for this thing or is it a $3,200 thing?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: You know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I'm fine with that.
Jen: yeah
E-lectronic mail: And then if because it's still in that range, you know you're not losing money at least.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know, the truth is we're not doing it solely for the money. I mean, Jen and I are doing this because we want it we want to do it. I mean, I think first and foremost.
E-lectronic mail: Well, that's a big part.
Jen: I've been wanting to do it since 2021. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
E-lectronic mail: So, all right. But this this is another thing though, right? Because so what the value you're getting out of it is not exclusively the money.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
E-lectronic mail: The value you're getting out of it is the portfolio.
Jen: right
E-lectronic mail: The value you're getting out of it is is telling your audience that this is a thing you're looking to explore more in the future.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, it's true.
E-lectronic mail: And maybe when you articulate that at a different time down the road in a different object, somebody's willing to invest in you to support you to do that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, Eric...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so Totally.
Jen: Yes.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I agree with that. i mean, Eric, I'll ask you, how often do you see like a world-class pyrography artist like Jen working with a a woodworker, like ah a decent woodworker?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like to me, it's so rare.
E-lectronic mail: Not, yeah, not that often, man. Not that often. and
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like I never see that combination.
E-lectronic mail: There,
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So I think Jen and I, like we get, you know, it's so fun for the two of us because Jen has these canvases that are not just like slices of tree.
E-lectronic mail: no
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I get to see decoration on my pieces that I'm not capable of because I i don't have those kinds of artistic chops that Jen does. So I think it's like a win-win for both of us, regardless of the money in some ways.
Jen: Yeah. And like you said, or at least in my experience, any of the big ticket items that we have worked on will get more attention on social media than like, say, right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: because they're novel.
Jen: So even if we don't sell it for the price that we want, at least we're building more of an audience that may want something bigger in the future. Right.
E-lectronic mail: there's I've had a number of times in my career already where somebody has been following me for multiple years, four, five, six years, or somebody saw my work at a show 2015, and then they get in touch and they me to do a thing.
E-lectronic mail: But it's the thing that catches their eye. And that, that look, you could make this, this you know, bar purse. And maybe maybe maybe it doesn't sell. Or maybe it sells for $2,500. And you're like, gosh, you know, like, fuck. That kind of sucks. But the the value of doing a portfolio piece, even if you little eat a little bit of the profits, is down the road. Now that exists in your vernacular.
E-lectronic mail: And down the road, somebody comes and they go like, that was a super fucking cool thing that you did.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Can you do that for me?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Eric,
E-lectronic mail: And now your price, because you're fucking seven years more experience, you're like, yeah, now that's the $7,000 piece.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: so Eric, it's funny you say that because you know that, you know, the stadia whiskey cabinet that I did with Keith, the the two of them.
E-lectronic mail: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, the second one sold last week.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah?
Jen: Congrats, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: out of the thin blue air, just like, just out of nowhere.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah? Hell yeah, man.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The first one's in Japan, the second one's in Puerto Rico now.
E-lectronic mail: Sure? Puerto Rico.
Jen: Wow, that's awesome.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. All right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And And that's an example where Keith and I were hoping for like a higher price point for those because there's so much fucking work.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Jen: They're so cool.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: they were They were definitely – they were pilot tests, but they were good pilot tests.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, sure, sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We made them good, right?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we were hoping for like $4,800, $5,000 range, and they wind sold for like $3,000 range instead $5,000 range.
E-lectronic mail: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But, you know, we take it grain salt because – three thousand range instead of five thousand range
E-lectronic mail: Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but you know we had to take it with a grain of salt because Keith got his YouTube videos out of it. We had a fucking great time making these together.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: There's so much value in that too, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: it It brought us together.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i mean, we're in the shop together for days, right?
Jen: Aw.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like it was so good. Like I don't even care. i just want someone to enjoy it at this point, you know?
E-lectronic mail: i Well, and so that that brings me to another question that I had reading your notes, Jen. um the I mean, listen, I told you, I prepared a little bit for this one, which is a nice change of pace.
Jen: I am so proud.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, thank you. I need some positive reinforcement over here. So... ah so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Agent of Chaos.
E-lectronic mail: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
E-lectronic mail: So as as I was reading, um if we go way down to the bottom, we're talking about like you bring up this. You called it the the pricing conundrum.
E-lectronic mail: And you use this this person, um this artist who is selling her paintings for a hundred dollars.
Jen: You're...
E-lectronic mail: And she's making a bunch of them, selling them on Facebook. They're selling out immediately. And ah eventually, because of popular demand, she starts doing this thing. Well, she's not raising her price.
E-lectronic mail: And then she is, eventually, she comes up with kind of a second bracket of $600 paintings. And she's selling those alongside. And they're both selling out. And the the question is basically like, why didn't she raise her prices?
E-lectronic mail: And the thing, I don't know if this is a parable or a real person that that remains unclear.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, she did.
Jen: No, it's a real person.
E-lectronic mail: This is a real person.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wait, wait.
Jen: It's a real, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: wait e Eric, as you read down, she did, if you read further down.
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: She that she raised her prices or that she came up with a third tier of 2000 to sell along with the 600.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Jen: No.
E-lectronic mail: So. Yes.
Jen: that That third tier is a hypothetical. She has not yet done that, but that would be the next logical step for her.
E-lectronic mail: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I thought... You said that, wait, she used to sell the paintings for 100.
E-lectronic mail: yes
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Then she came the up with the best paintings for 600.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
Jen: She was still selling both.
E-lectronic mail: But she's still selling $100 paintings. Yes.
Jen: she was still she will
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: correct
E-lectronic mail: yes
Jen: Her plan is to always sell $100 paintings because her main goal, as stated in the article that I read, is that everybody should be able to have a piece of art in their home.
E-lectronic mail: And so this this then brings up the point that I was going to talk about.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead.
E-lectronic mail: Because what like asking yourself what your value add to your community is or to the thing that you love is, is a really important thing to do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Go ahead.
E-lectronic mail: And if your goal, if your value add, like if if my priority is myself and my value add is money, then raising your prices is the thing to do.
Jen: hmm. Mm hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And I think that's the structure in which we are living. That's the structure in which we grew up. That's the thing that we know. That's what people encourage us to do. My value add in making things out of wood is not to make as much money as I can.
E-lectronic mail: my value add for myself is that I would be miserable doing anything else. And the value add for making content, now it's become my business. So there's there's other things tied in with it. But the reason I started is because sharing the things that I'm doing and teaching other people ah who might be going through a hard time in their lives to like find a thing that they can do and they can feel successful at and that can feel empowering, that's hugely impactful.
E-lectronic mail: And so that I get a lot of value out of that for me personally. And I think that reverberates in the community in some small way. and And so the price point almost becomes secondary to the object and to the the teaching other people how I make the object.
E-lectronic mail: So figuring out what your value is that you're trying to find and and get out of it. Again, if it's only money, that's totally fine. But identifying what the primary value is in the secondary and tertiary value, I think that's an important thing that we don't often do when we're talking about pricing because money is the thing that drives all of these conversations.
E-lectronic mail: So what I guess what I'm asking is what's your value? Like what's your value add? What is the thing you get out of pyrography? What is the thing you're hoping to get out of this liquor purse?
Jen: So i guess the main reason I'm going to kind of rephrase your question a little bit. The main reason that I keep doing pet portraits, even though I am really burnt out on doing them, and that pun was totally intended, um, is because I know it makes people so happy.
E-lectronic mail: Does that make you happy?
Jen: Yes, it does. Um, so I'm not taking as many of those commissions anymore, um, but it's still something that I feel like I just can't let go 100%.
Jen: um
E-lectronic mail: Did you did you or do you have pat
Jen: Yes, I have a dog.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. That's like it, because that, that sounds like an answer of somebody who knows the, the difficulty and pain of losing a pet and multiple pets, you know?
Jen: Oh, yeah, my dog is 12.
E-lectronic mail: And yeah, I mean, my, my dog just died six months ago, you know?
Jen: He's, yeah, I'm...
Jen: I'm sorry.
E-lectronic mail: And it's, it's yeah.
Jen: I'm really, I'm so sorry.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, really, Eric?
E-lectronic mail: Huck died in, in August.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Your family dog?
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, I know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, fuck.
E-lectronic mail: And it's, it's bre every fucking time it happens, it's fucking devastating, you know?
Jen: They are, they're family. So it is
E-lectronic mail: It is. It is. And so giving giving that that back to somebody feels really important to you, even though you're burnt out on it.
Jen: it does. It does. Yep. So
E-lectronic mail: Okay. let's take pet portraits. One good example. like you You are a pet lover. You want to give something to those people. What's this purse given to you?
Jen: one Fun. Like I've been dying to do this project.
E-lectronic mail: That's... that has real value.
Jen: feel like I finally have talked Paul into starting it because it's...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: even though Even though, Eric, even though Jen loves to pretend like she just wants to shit on me 24-7, she has to admit that when we work together, it's fun as fuck.
Jen: It's fun. It's fun. But like, the just the creativity, because I don't have a lot of creativity when I'm doing pet portraits.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, so what whats what's the creativity here?
Jen: I'm i'm literally copying a picture. it for the For the purse?
E-lectronic mail: What are you going to do with it? That's it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jen: Oh my gosh. i have a I have a list of ideas of things that we want to do to this. So it started off with just this plain... i mean, ah the wine liquor box at Winnithar really is not that impressive.
Jen: It just kind of...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So we've we've evolved it out of that.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Okay.
Jen: it's It's just sparked something in me, in us, I guess, that we want to make it bigger and better. like Like Paul was saying, like, let yeah, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A traveling bar, honestly.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Jen: Like, I'm so freaking excited.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Jen: But like, um now I'm at the point of brainstorming, like, okay, what do I burn on it? Are we going to have a theme? Like, what kind of... What clientele market are we trying to sell this to?
Jen: Is it going to be for females? Is it going to be geared towards men? Like, I don i don't know. It's just, it's all up in the air.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, but see, that's that's almost like designing to a price point in a way.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, you're designing to to a group of people.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Jen: Right. But do you find that men or women pay more than the other?
E-lectronic mail: No, no, no, no. It's different from the price point itself, but you're still like, whether you're designing to a price point, which is a group of people who can afford that price point or a group of people by gender, ah nationality, region like whatever, whatever the the modifications are, they're similar.
Jen: Yeah. Right.
Jen: Right.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: But so you're you're articulating this huge amount of excitement to do the thing, this creative freedom that you want to have in this thing.
Jen: Yeah, because I don't get that pretty much anywhere else. So my fear with designing to a price point is that it's again going to stifle my creativity because I just want to go crazy.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, Jen, can I can i can i suggest something? I'm just going to put this out here.
Jen: Absolutely.
E-lectronic mail: Fuck the price point.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: just Just fucking do the thing.
Jen: Well, that's my goal. Paul's the one that brought up having a price point, and if I'm going to be honest.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah well I was thinking a little practically at the time but well Eric you know you've kind of convinced me like we just fucking who cares throw a third caution to win just go for it yeah I'm with you I'm with you
E-lectronic mail: ah She said, bus meet Paul.
E-lectronic mail: Who cares, man? Just do the thing because then it sits for a fucking while because yes, because it could, it could, first of all, first of all, there's no point in doing a thing that you think will sell.
Jen: Yeah. And if it sits for a while, so be it. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and if we discount it so what
Jen: Yeah. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: If it's going to make you miserable doing the thing and burn you out more, and then you stop doing the fucking thing that you want to do anyway. What's the point of that? Just get a real fucking job.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: There's zero point in that. Right.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I have a real fucking job.
E-lectronic mail: But yeah,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It does.
E-lectronic mail: You do. You do.
Jen: you're the only one that does.
E-lectronic mail: You do.
Jen: No.
E-lectronic mail: gen Jen and I don't. Okay. We're out here just fucking riding the wave. All right, cowboy. but But the other thing is like, so so the rejuvenation of the creative process has a tremendous amount of value outside of the the financial.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: does
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Now, in an ideal world, you would at a minimum recoup your costs. And then, of course, in an in a perfect world, you would get your your time back. And maybe you would even get paid a little extra because it's special and it's unique and it's different and nobody's seen it before.
E-lectronic mail: But the the the potential anytime you do something that is outside of that window that people know you for, they might hesitate to to engage with it.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: But the only way to get them to engage with it over time is to continue to introduce them to those new types of things. Like you nudge, you nudge the people who want to support you 5%.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric Eric
E-lectronic mail: You can't just turn it 90 degrees.
Jen: It's kind, yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric fuck you you're right again
Jen: I have a point to make that just that with Paul bringing up, Paul, the only one with a real job is the one bringing up, telling me that we should have a price point.
E-lectronic mail: You can't. Okay, go ahead.
Jen: I just have to throw that out there.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, this motherfucker. This motherfucker out here
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, don't forget Phineas Tooneman, Eric.
Jen: ah
E-lectronic mail: Old, old daddy greenbacks, we call him. Motherfucker.
E-lectronic mail: He's all about them Benjis.
Jen: I'm using that. I'm going to use that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh
E-lectronic mail: ah We got Aloha one out of the last episode. Old daddy greenbacks is coming for a t-shirt on this one.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: don't forget phas tunena and eric
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, okay, okay, wait, okay.
Jen: So...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We've gone way off, like way off the the outline that i was I had in mind, but okay.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, bring it back, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but But I think it's, Eric, you've really touched on some excellent points.
E-lectronic mail: Bring it back.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I just, see, this is where, like, sometimes the episodes go off the path that I imagine them going on. And I have like notes in front of me to keep them on the path. But like you have brought this conversation, like it went way off the path from what I expected, but you, you covered.
E-lectronic mail: This is shocking.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. But you covered some such great points through this, like using me and Jen as an example. Like it was so fucking good. god damn you.
E-lectronic mail: Well, ah you're welcome.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
E-lectronic mail: I love you too. ah see I will say, and maybe maybe we, ah do we have anything else to cover on this? because
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Yes.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, okay, okay.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh God.
E-lectronic mail: Well, well in that...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes. Okay. So I want to have a little more structured look at the designing to a price point, right? I think there are some pros and some cons against it. And I'd like to go through them.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Eric, Eric, I think you're in a great position to push back after I go through these. Like I want your reaction after I go through these, because I think you're the most outside, like Jen and I are kind of like unified on this. And I think it would be interesting to hear your view.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So,
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Pros, like the pros of designing to a price point. It can help sales. That's what Jen said, because you target a specific audience with a specific price point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Totally on board with that. Number two, limitations can actually help the creative process because instead of a white piece of paper in front of you, you have very specific design considerations.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that we know that that can help, right? We know that.
Jen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: We've talked about that many times. The third thing, it um you can make more pieces per year because they're like simpler. You can like iterate faster.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we know that helps with not only your own personal development, but also building a buying audience. So, Eric, there is... um You know, you talked about the pricing conundrum. This person, this woman who like sold her paintings for $100 and they sold out.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and they sold out And then the audience grew and they kept selling out. And then she introduced $600 and those sold out. And now she's thinking about multi-thousand and they're going to sell out because she's as she iterates on those $100 pieces, her buying audience is getting larger and larger and larger over time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So there's there's an audience enlargement piece to that story that we didn't quite touch on, which I think is important.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And finally, you know the um does designing to a price point force you to be creative in new and different ways? It almost throws down the gauntlet of like, what can I do within the confines of the next six hours on this piece? Okay, so those are some of the pros.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What are the cons designing to a price point? Well, it puts limits on your creativity as as far as what you can do. ah It's going to be probably lacking novelty, like big, bold ideas that do so well on social media. like That's not going to be in a price-limited piece, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Those big, bold, paradigm-shaking ideas come when you really break the mold. You're not like, oh, I'm already at $500 worth of effort. I got to stop, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, the the the second the then the third con is you may be missing out on identifying your really big spenders because you're not asking you're not like going for it.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're saying, oh here's another $100 painting. Here's another $200 this. And so like how do you identify your big spenders if you're not going for it? Okay, another con, you may get comfortable at that price point and then you're scared to elevate the price in the future.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right? So those are some cons against it. So I've listed some pros about like, you know, it helps you, it helps sales. It helps with creativity because limitations can help that. It means you iterate more. And then there's cons like you limit your creativity and you don't identify your big buyers.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And, uh, you know, you might get stuck in that kind of small minded thinking. So Eric, what do you think?
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Can we, can we, can we go through this? So I agree with some, I disagree with others. Can we go through these one by one and just like agree, disagree and why?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Please. Sure. Yep. Go ahead.
E-lectronic mail: So, so the first one right off the jump, um, the, the first pro it can help, it can help sales because you're, you're targeting a specific audience with price point.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It can, it can help sales.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
E-lectronic mail: Um, I don't disagree with that, But you also kind of like, that's not dissimilar. It's kind of two sides of the same coin to the con of you might get stuck at that price point and scared to go up for fuel ah fear of failure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: So like, so it's a both and, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
E-lectronic mail: Like, you know what your audience is willing to buy. We've already established. So Paul, your willing your audience is willing to spend up to 6,000.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Jen, up to 4,000.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
E-lectronic mail: So you can work within that. But what if you make a piece that's 8,000? You know, like, are you going to be afraid to to raise it up? You know, so they're they're more or less, you know, the the same argument in reverse.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: um Let's see. The limitations can absolutely help the creative process by focusing the path. I agree with that 100%. So giving yourself some limitations can really ah remind you to not go overboard and just get the fucking thing done.
E-lectronic mail: So I agree with that 100%. um It means you make more pieces per year. Does it? Does it though?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It does. Yes, it does.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: 100%. Jen, Jen, Jen.
Jen: Did, how do you, i would that was the one that was holding me up too. Like, because you're because you're designing to a lower price point, if like if I'm just focusing, like take that woman with the $100 paintings, if that's all I'm doing, I'm gonna get bored real fast.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Why is that holding you up, Jen?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah jen jen
E-lectronic mail: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: che
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, but you're going to look, look, come on. This is not like, there's no mystery here, Scooby-Doo. Like Jen, how how many hundred dollar pet portraits can you make in a year versus thousand dollar portraits?
Jen: It's, it's, it's, it's the, yeah, I can, but am I going to?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Duh, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, that's a different question. That's a different question. Whether you have the motivation to do it.
E-lectronic mail: but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But like if if I make, well, Eric, Eric.
E-lectronic mail: But I think it's an important question if you're just assuming robotic like output.
Jen: Yeah. ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: eric if I decide in a year that I'm going to make stadia boxes, I can make several hundred easily. No problem.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, sure, sure, sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: As opposed to like five big pieces. Right. So like, sure. You know what I'm saying? Smaller pieces. You can iterate more. That's just the, the, the, go ahead, Jen.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, all right, that's fair.
Jen: Let's take look at your your coasters that you did. Was that before Christmas?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Jen: those the You made those to a certain price point, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I did. Yep.
Jen: Okay. Would you want to keep doing those over and over and over and over and over and over and over?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: fuck no
E-lectronic mail: ah Yeah. Yeah. And so at some point what happens at some point, what happens is it's a Tuesday at 8am and you're like, I really don't want to go fucking make coasters.
Jen: I rest my case.
E-lectronic mail: So then now all of a sudden you're in the shop instead of 8am, you're in the shop at like 845. And then like, it's like lunch is at noon, but now it's 1130 and you're like, i'm fucking over watching the CNC.
Jen: Yeah, I think.
E-lectronic mail: So like your output slows because of lack of motivation.
Jen: And lack of creativity, and I think that's just as important as the the can you and the will you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, but...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, but look, bear with me. I think iteration, like making many of a thing has really, really positive impacts.
Jen: I'm trying.
E-lectronic mail: Yes, a great a agreed, agreed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, and I have a parable, right?
Jen: Agreed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I think you both know it, but just bear with me because I don't know if the listeners know this parable. It's a parable about creative work by, it's from David Bales and Ted Orland's book, Art and Fear.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, it's about a pottery class. okay. So let me just tell you this parable, because I think this kind of summarizes what I'm getting at with this point. A ceramic teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All those on the left side of the studio, he said, you would be graded solely on the quantity of work that you produced.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: right. And so that's the left side on the quantity of work. On the right side, you'll be graded solely on the quality of work you produce. OK.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: The procedure was simple. On the final day of class, he would bring in his yeah scale and weigh the work on the quantity group. Fifty pounds of pots gives you an A. Forty pounds of pots gets you a B and so on and so forth.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Those being graded on the quality part, however, it's not about the weight you produce. They would be graded on only one pot, albeit a perfect pot.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: To get an A, you have to produce one perfect pot. Okay, quantity versus quality. Well, apparently came grading time and a very curious fact emerged that the works of highest quality were all produced by the quantity group, right?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So it seems that while the quantity group was churning out pot after pot after pot and piles and piles of work and learning from their mistakes as they did the quantity piece,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That also led to quality at the same time. Meanwhile, the quality group sat theorizing about perfection and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay.
E-lectronic mail: I agree with that 1000%.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And I agree with the point that you're making, that making more objects makes you a better ah master of whatever craft you exist in. um I am very much of the opinion of quantity over quality.
E-lectronic mail: And you make a bunch of shit and then accidentally one day you make a good thing and then you try to figure out how you did that. But it comes from just making a bunch of shit. The thing that I'm pushing back on is that is inherently separate from price point.
E-lectronic mail: price but I think the way that you're you're pitching that to us is if you're looking for a lower price point, you care less, which is a fair point, I think. Correct me if I'm if i'm mistaken in that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, I'm saying if you make a lot of objects at a lower price point, you will arrive at quality sooner that you can charge a higher price point for.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. All right. I won't push back against that statement.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen?
Jen: But are the things that you're making at the lower price point even, um what's the word I'm trying to think of? Will it affect whatever the big thing is that you're trying to do?
Jen: Like um all these little pyrography pieces.
Jen: Are they going to, i don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, but Jen, let's use the Stadia collection as an example.
Jen: Okay. Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I've made hundreds and hundreds of tiny little Stadia boxes. You've decorated many of them with pet portraits, right?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And that led me on the path to make a $3,000 Stadia whiskey cabinet. I don't know that that whiskey cabinet would exist had it not been for doing the hard work of just iterating on that shape so many times that it was stuck in my fucking head.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: I hear that, and I think that's a totally reasonable point. What I want to know is where did the Stadia box originate? What was the first Stadia box you ever made?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I was researching the idea of human preference for shape and the answer was curvilinear and I thought, what's the simplest shape I could make a box that's curvilinear?
E-lectronic mail: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Mm-hmm. and And how did you make it?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: With a router? What do you mean?
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, yeah. What was the actual process to make the thing with the router?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I dug it out with Forstner, like drill press.
E-lectronic mail: The first one you ever made? The first one you ever made was Forstner bits, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: first first ah Yeah, like drill press and then router to kind of clean it up, yeah.
E-lectronic mail: And then... Right, right? And how many did you make like that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: One.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, and then you made a router jig, like ah like ah like a full actual ass jig.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes, as yes.
E-lectronic mail: And how many did you make like that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I would say about 30 to 50. And then I had a close call with the router where it almost ripped off some of my fingers and sparks went flying and it scared the shit out of me.
E-lectronic mail: Mmm. Mmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And then I bought a CNC because of that.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, and so so then so we're talking about a three-stage evolution of this box, right? Forstner bit and chisels, router jig, and then CNC.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
E-lectronic mail: And then you learn the CNC, and I'm assuming that the the process of um efficiency, learning the machine, and then learning how to just jig it up and let it go, that's gotten faster over time as well.
E-lectronic mail: So you can kind of break that down in like a couple of different phases.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Way faster way faster way.
E-lectronic mail: So this this product has evolved over time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
E-lectronic mail: How has the price changed?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: A little, not a lot.
E-lectronic mail: A little, but it's, it's probably not gone down. Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It hasn't gone down, but I tried to keep it reasonable.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Okay. Okay. But you, so you made a thing and you charged X and let's just say X plus one. So by the time you've made your hundredth and you're way more efficient at it, now you're charging more money for that object.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: This is correct. I charge the same money or slightly more money for something that takes less time.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. So price point has nothing to do with this thing. It's just purely iterating because you had the idea that you wanted to make an object that was soft and was, um, uh, attractive to human beings.
E-lectronic mail: And it just so happened to work. And that gave you the, uh, uh, excitement, the, the buy-in to iterate this thing through more and more different processes and make it more and more efficient to keep it affordable.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Correct.
E-lectronic mail: So the the price point that you initially sold it at, like when it was a theory versus what it is now, those are those are two entirely different things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: They're entirely separate.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fair, fair, fair.
Jen: who
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, you're grinning like a Cheshire cat over there. What are you thinking?
Jen: I just like seeing Eric tear you apart. That's all.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: love
E-lectronic mail: and was that It It wasn't... I'm not trying to tear them apart.
Jen: But I could see in your face that you're like, I'm going to get him. I'm going to get him. And I was like, yes, do it.
E-lectronic mail: Well, because he's he's he's talking about the the design and execution of like designing to a price point so that you can make more of an object.
E-lectronic mail: But the first time that you made this object, it like you just wanted to explore the idea of making something that was attractive to human beings.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah.
E-lectronic mail: And it just, again, so so let's take the Stadia boxes out of it.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: How many objects have you explored with the idea of like, maybe this works, maybe it doesn't. And then nobody buys it. And then you go like, all right, well, maybe... Maybe I don't explore that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Maybe like three to five.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah. so So, okay. all right. So that's three to five different objects that could have been products that don't end up becoming products. Price point be damned.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah
E-lectronic mail: It's just that it didn't happen to catch on. You figure out the price point after people show some interest in the thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So Eric, is your point, is your overarching point, don't worry about price point, just do the thing if you really want to do it, worry about price later, is that what you're saying?
Jen: yeah
E-lectronic mail: worry about the thing. And then if it works, like you don't know that it's going to work. You have no fucking idea. You could be designing the next BlackBerry where it's like it's hot for a hot second and then nobody gives a fuck about it. Whereas like the goal is to design the iPhone, right?
E-lectronic mail: So do the thing, see if it works. And if it works, then worry about how you're going to produce more at a reasonable rate for people.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay, so now what you're talking about actually is an evolution of price point. I was talking about this with Jen. So you start your first couple versions are like low price.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't know where this is going. I don't know how to make it yet. We're just trying some shit out, low price. And then as the demand is obvious,
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and consistent, then you can iterate, make more, raise the price, make more, raise the price, add more, raise the price. Like it's kind of like an evolutionary, right?
E-lectronic mail: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: An evolution in pricing.
Jen: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the tea boxes. We did the first one, had it sold before was even done. So we made another one. It sold before I was done. And then we were like, we're done.
Jen: But people, at least on my end, people kept messaging me asking if we were going to make more. And at that point, we were ready to move on to the next thing. And you put it up on your website at the I don't want to do this again price.
Jen: And that's and we haven't had any more.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And we haven't had any more.
Jen: So I think that's right.
E-lectronic mail: That's how you know you priced it right, then.
Jen: So I think the price that we did sell it at was the price. At least I don't think anybody has asked you for one at at the price.
E-lectronic mail: ah I trying to do the math there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Sorry. Jen, sorry.
E-lectronic mail: The price that we sold it at is the price?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: What?
E-lectronic mail: That's... sure, sure.
Jen: I mean, is the most we're going to get?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Eric, Eric, she's still cold and sober tonight.
Jen: Gosh darn it. Is the...
E-lectronic mail: she
Jen: ah Yeah, I'm drinking water. So I meant like that's what we're going to get. i don't think we're ever going to get the the price that you have it on your website.
E-lectronic mail: sure sure sure Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you you flooded the market.
Jen: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: And that's that's good. it's It's saturated.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: You know what the market's going to absorb. But that comes through iteration. That doesn't come through the idea of like, I'm going to develop a product and people are going to buy it for X.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, can we can we hit a couple of the cons real quick um before we move on?
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Fair.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, please.
E-lectronic mail: So the con, it puts limits on your creativity as far as how much you can do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, go ahead.
E-lectronic mail: I completely disagree with that. There's the that the adage, um I'm assuming it exists outside of cabinet shops, but I've only ever heard it kind of in the trades of like, the way to figure out the most efficient way to do a thing is to give the laziest man on the job the hardest task.
E-lectronic mail: And then he'll just figure out the path of least resistance. So I don't think that it limits your creativity. I think it puts restraints on how much time that you can give to an object.
E-lectronic mail: But then your job as the creative person is to figure out a more efficient path to do the thing that you want to do.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, don't know, Eric.
Jen: I... No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You're fucking playing word games. That's fucking semantics.
Jen: i I think...
E-lectronic mail: i Well, no no, no, no. I don't think is I'm not trying to play semantics. What I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to say very briefly, and then Jen, I'll let you make your point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, Jen, take his ass down on this point.
E-lectronic mail: What I'm trying to say is like, if you want to do X, but you only have Y number of hours and it won't work, your job is to figure out how to do X more efficiently or don't do X.
E-lectronic mail: Those are your options.
Jen: I'm not worried about time, though. Like, when i when I wrote that question, my thought was actual creative freedom. Like, I'm just going to keep using the wine purse. Like, all these things that we want to do to it, like the leather strap, the brass hinges, the pyrography, like...
Jen: all those things will add up time-wise, but they also add up cost-wise. So, at least on Paul's end, because he's the one doing all that work.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Paul doesn't matter.
Jen: So...
E-lectronic mail: He's the one flipping the bell out here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Paul doesn't matter.
E-lectronic mail: He's the sugar daddy.
Jen: Daddy greenbacks. So...
E-lectronic mail: yeah Old daddy greenbacks, they call him.
Jen: um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
E-lectronic mail: Oh my Christ. Okay.
Jen: I had to use it again.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: de j
Jen: like...
E-lectronic mail: oh my christ
Jen: So like, that's where I meant like creatively, like if you are designing to a price point, say all those things add up to $5,000, but we only want to sell it for three, then we can't do all of those things that we wanted to do.
E-lectronic mail: okay
E-lectronic mail: Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
Jen: to do
E-lectronic mail: so So I was thinking more like your time costs more in an object than the materials, but that's a fair point. If I'm making a dining table for four grand and somebody wants a slab that costs 20 grand, well, that's outside the budget, so it limits things.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you.
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: That's a fair point. Okay. Sorry?
Jen: That's also why I don't charge for my time. Like, I feel like that's – I don't – I take that into factor.
E-lectronic mail: Sorry?
Jen: Like, i factor in my time, but I don't have, like, a set hourly rate. I don't keep track of how much time it takes me to do something. One, because I'm constantly interrupted by one thing or another.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, sure.
Jen: But two, like –
Jen: If we were, so I've been brainstorming this project. I have notes since 2021. There's no way I can charge for all that time.
E-lectronic mail: No, you can't. You can't. like there's
Jen: And I feel like even if it wasn't since 2021, like we spend so much time going back and forth, brainstorming, figuring out what kind of wood you want to use, like... can you Can you charge somebody for all of that?
Jen: It's going to go, your price point's going to go way up.
E-lectronic mail: No.
Jen: So can you obviously charge maybe for how much time it took you to actually make the thing, but that's not all of it on our end.
E-lectronic mail: No.
Jen: Do you know what i mean?
E-lectronic mail: No, I know exactly what you mean and you're 100%
Jen: so So that's why time is a factor, but it's I don't have an hourly rate. I don't think that that's fair.
E-lectronic mail: i don't I don't charge by the hour either. i I typically try to envision if I wasn't making content, how many weeks would it take me to do the thing? And then within the week, I have a lot of flexibility, right? Could be a 40-hour week, could be an 80-hour week, but at least I get to make that decision because to your point, like...
E-lectronic mail: There are times where I'm, and I've said this before, I'm walking around the streets of Philadelphia, you know, chewing on the cut of some idea. And I don't know.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are you a cow?
E-lectronic mail: ah yeah a little bit. ah and And how do you charge it? Because like I could be thinking about three different things simultaneously.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: You know, I could be i could be two whiskeys deep walking around thinking about life.
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: And then all of a sudden the idea pops in my head. I'm not keeping track of the minutes I'm thinking about that.
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: So there's there is no way to charge for that.
Jen: But to your point of like the whole, given the so most ineffective guy in the shop, the hardest task, like that is kind of mostly focused on time.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So
Jen: And to Paul's point, the question, like it's stifling your creativity.
Jen: ah i don't think it's the same thing. Like, I think they're two two separate points.
E-lectronic mail: so Okay.
E-lectronic mail: That is a fair rebuttal.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, Eric. Yeah, Eric.
E-lectronic mail: I say, yeah, bitch.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and any other Any other rebuttals, Eric?
E-lectronic mail: Um, the only other one that jumped out to me is the novelty and amazing, big, bold ideas do very well on social media.
Jen: Bye.
E-lectronic mail: And you may be forfeiting that opportunity. Um,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: novelty doesn't necessarily always do well on social media, but I think the point that you're making is like, you know, the hundredth pet portrait you make probably isn't going to go viral.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I think novelty is a key component of going viral on social media.
E-lectronic mail: Right. Right.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think the things that do go viral typically are are novel.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Our novel, yes.
E-lectronic mail: But I'm not...
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: But everything novel doesn't go viral.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
E-lectronic mail: You know?
Jen: Yeah, but you have a greater chance of that happening if you are doing something novel.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's true.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, 100%. However, it's also like you're you're playing a numbers game and you're playing a game with and maybe against the algorithm.
E-lectronic mail: So I would say the majority of the people who go viral, at least in our space, um are content creators. who are monetizing the contents virality and that matters.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh,
E-lectronic mail: So let's take that. I've used this example on the pod before, but I'll use it again. um And this is no shade to either person who put out this content because they both, well, they both, they both did all of the right things, right?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: oh.
E-lectronic mail: So Larissa has been making tambour cabinets forever.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: OK.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And she made this carved timbre cabinet. And ah last year at a party, um Johnny from Johnny builds was there and he saw the cabinet and he went, that's dope as fuck.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Mm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
E-lectronic mail: And it inspired him to make a carved timbre cabinet. And before he put the content out, before he put the video out, he shot Larissa text and he was like, Hey, You know, are you cool with me um putting this content out because I i got it from you?
E-lectronic mail: And Larissa being the wonderful human being she is, she's like, I didn't invent timbre cabinets. I didn't invent carved doors. Fucking do what you got to do, man. Now, Johnny's a professional content creator. Johnny has a big following and big reach.
E-lectronic mail: And so that goes big viral. That goes, you know, like a couple mil.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ye
E-lectronic mail: Johnny gets paid across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. And then Jeff from Two Moose sees Johnny do that. And Jeff is a professional content creator. And he goes, well, that's going viral.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
E-lectronic mail: So I should jump on that train. And it was still novel enough that that also went big viral.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: So this thing happens where like it's novel ah and people see that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And then people who don't know how the game works or maybe are little bit jaded about the social media game think like, well, you know, maybe, maybe Johnny sold that cabinet and that's helpful for Johnny.
E-lectronic mail: Johnny didn't give a fuck about whether the cabinet sold because he got paid good money on the content itself. So I guess I want to, I want to you know, chasing virality for the sake of selling a thing versus getting paid for the content itself.
E-lectronic mail: Those are kind of two different avenues.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Good.
Jen: Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Good distinction.
Jen: and not all of us are, you know, get paid for content. So that's a different side of things too.
E-lectronic mail: Sure.
Jen: Like, yeah.
E-lectronic mail: But but also what that means is, like, the algorithm favors the people who are going to reach broader audiences and keep them on the platform longer. So if you do a thing, and it doesn't go viral, and you're like, fuck, man, like, I was really hoping it might, it might just be the circumstances.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, could be.
E-lectronic mail: So it's, you know, like, it's kind of, it's lose lose in that regard.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I see. So when Jen and I hope to go viral on a novel piece, I think we do it for the reason you mentioned earlier in the show, Eric, which is a year or two from now, maybe that customer who saw that will reach back out at a later time and be like, Paul, Jen, I love what you guys do together.
E-lectronic mail: yeah
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: yeah yeah well so all right so i'll give you a perfect example of this uh and and a little bit of the like
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i want to. Yeah. So I think that's.
Jen: And like you said, it only takes one person to want the thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: it's it's not It's not a fuck it price because it was within a budget. um but So I made a coopered front cabinet, another whiskey cabinet last year for a gallery show.
E-lectronic mail: And it didn't sell at the show. and it came back and I was disappointed because I was like, you know, like I kind of priced it to sell at the show. And like I...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: How much was it? Okay.
E-lectronic mail: Um, I want to say it was like four, it was right around four, 38, four, something like that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like 50%.
E-lectronic mail: Um, and you know, galleries take a, a not insubstantial cut.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Right.
E-lectronic mail: Right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like fifty percent yeah
E-lectronic mail: So yeah, most galleries take 50%.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: This, this gallery only takes 30, which is a fucking, you know, miracle, but, but so it comes back and I was like, ah, you know, I mean, whatever, you know, like I made it because I wanted to make it and it was the thing that was important, but like, fine.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
Jen: Steel, yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Um, Literally like three days ago, four days ago, I got a DM from somebody who wanted to commission a cabinet and he kept referencing that cabinet.
E-lectronic mail: And he was like, this is the thing, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh,
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And now the circumstances were such given where it's going to go in his house, that cabinet is not going to work. So we're going to do a different one. But he saw that cabinet and went, I want to pay you to make a cabinet.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah. Good point. Great point.
E-lectronic mail: So without that cabinet, who knows if that commission comes through, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yep.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Did the, did the original cabinet ever sell?
E-lectronic mail: No, it's hanging up next to my bed.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, it is, bitch. ah Well, you win some and you lose some, like you said.
E-lectronic mail: See you in some and you lose some, baby.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: but No, but that's a really good example of don't like if if a piece doesn't sell, don't sweat it. It may actually help sell future other pieces.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: That's a great point.
E-lectronic mail: Yes. Yes.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right. Well, we're at um an hour 10. Jen, do you feel like this was your brainchild designed to a price point? Jen, do you feel as though we covered... all the key concepts you wanted to bring up and feel free to elongate if we didn't.
Jen: um let me take I feel like we did yeah Yeah. My hardest, my hardest dilemma when thinking of any price, whether it's to a price point or actually i already did the thing and now I need to think of a price is just like, how do I put a value on something that I take into consideration time, ah materials and like just the fun that you had, the literal blood, sweat, and tears that you put into it.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay.
Jen: Like,
Jen: I feel like I always want to charge more, but I know I can't. And I'm sure that every artist feels that way because you're most artists, no matter what medium you're doing, you're, you're kind of putting a little bit of your soul into, into your work.
Jen: And it's hard to imagine letting go of something, um even a piece that really means a lot to you. Like I really, i still love that second tee box that we did.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, I know. I know you do.
Jen: I mean, that that will always kill me that we sold that. But like, I wanted to sell it. I want somebody else to enjoy it, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
Jen: So yeah, that's that's the only other thing that I thought about talking about. It's just like that that conundrum that I'm sure everybody goes through.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, between like what you thought the price point should be and like you got emotionally invested during the journey and then you loved it so much at the end.
Jen: yeah, yeah. yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's like, how do I sell it for that is that? Is that what you mean?
Jen: Yeah, sort of, yeah. I mean,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah. Well, i had that I had that recently with a skull cabinet I made.
Jen: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like It was this William & Mary style skull.
Jen: Oh, that thing was so cool.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: was I planned to sell it. I planned to sell it the whole time. And I was going to go between $6,000 and $10,000 on this cabinet because it was super, super involved, super fine furniture.
Jen: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like Every bit of detail. what like I spared not no detail. I went for it. And as I got closer and closer to it, and I started thinking about taking photos, I was actually going to ask Justin maybe to make a video of like the inspiration that brought this piece into being.
Jen: o
E-lectronic mail: Hell yeah.
Jen: That would be so sick.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I thought about that. and i and And I asked Justin, would you do that? And he's like, yeah, He was like, yeah, man, no problem. you know like Justin was going to do that. and um and And as I got closer and closer, Jen, speaking to your point, I was so in love with this cabinet, I couldn't sell it.
Jen: You didn't sell
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I didn't. I want it.
E-lectronic mail: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: i just couldn't. like I love it so much. I'm like, why am I giving this away? I love this thing.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I want to see it every day of my life. I want my family to love it. I want my child to love it. Who's going to you know inherit it someday. I didn't sell it.
Jen: Mm-hmm. Do you regret that?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It was going to. No.
Jen: Do you regret? Say you could have gotten 10 grand for it. The highest amount that you ever could have made.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't. No, not a bit.
Jen: No.
E-lectronic mail: Is this?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because i the the the piece and it's it's like the the lineage and the... like What do you say? um The life that that piece will have in my family, in my house, with my family members for the rest of my life means more to me than $10,000.
Jen: Because you have another job.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Because I have a Oh, dude.
E-lectronic mail: She said, because you all fucking Danny Greenbacks out here, course.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Absolutely.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No, absolutely. Absolutely. Because if if it was about like affording food for my family or a place to live, you damn well bet I would have sold that motherfucker.
E-lectronic mail: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But I have a J-O-B, so I didn't have to.
Jen: And then you would have regretted it though. Like I'm regretting.
E-lectronic mail: But that's the thing, right? Is like, yeah, you're youre you're in a position, thankfully, that you don't have to compromise, which is wonderful.
Jen: Yeah.
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: um But when you do have to make those compromises, there are a couple of pieces that like, I'm like, man, I wish I hadn't sold that, you know? but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Are there? Really?
E-lectronic mail: but But I mean, you know,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: me one. Give me one. give me one
E-lectronic mail: Um, the now there's nowhere where this would exist in my house, but the the Demi Loon that I made in school, um because there are so many techniques that I would never do now.
E-lectronic mail: um And it's like I had so it was that was maybe the piece that challenged me the most while I was in school. And I think also the novelty probably of that's the only piece I did sell from school.
Jen: m
E-lectronic mail: So it's a little bit of like seller's remorse of like I, um, somebody in Boston, you know, and it fits, it fits their home, but it's a little bit like I have all of the learning pieces and I can kind of see my journey.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Where's it live now?
E-lectronic mail: Um, um, accept that one. It's like, it's like a blank page in the notebook, you know?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Hmm. Hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Um, but so Jen, the the other thing I noticed in, in this discussion of pricing is, um, if you'll allow me to poke and prod just for a moment, um, there's, there's quite a bit of self doubt.
Jen: Absolutely.
E-lectronic mail: And I think that there's the, like,
E-lectronic mail: the the struggle of getting attached to a thing is one thing and then not wanting to sell it. That's one thing.
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: But also the vulnerability is like, it's very real. The vulnerability of I poured my heart into this thing and now it's going to have an actual like number value on it.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And that's going to, that's going to reflect what I'm worth as an artist, not what the object is worth.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yes
Jen: That's yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Like that's a real thing that we contend with.
Jen: That's the point I was making.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: And, and the thing that I want to say to you and to, to everybody listening, cause I, I'm, I'm sure a lot of folks deal with this, this self doubt. I know that I have, and, uh, occasionally I still do is you're worth every single penny that somebody is willing to pay you for that piece and probably more because you weren't willing to ask enough for it.
Jen: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: And it's, it's, you never, never feel guilty about somebody paying you for your time and your work and your expertise because they're paying you for that piece, but they're also paying you for the decade of experience that you have.
E-lectronic mail: Right. And they can always find somebody if they wanted to find the cheapest option, they would find the cheapest option. What they want is Jen's work.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So when I met Jen, she was very reticent to raise prices and ask a lot for her work.
E-lectronic mail: Hmm. Hmm.
Jen: who
E-lectronic mail: Hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She was like, I mean, very, very hesitant. And I was like, Jen, you don't understand how good you are.
Jen: I appreciate that, buddy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like, i know I know it's weird. I know I've told you this before, and I know it's it's like hard to hear.
Jen: but
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But you are literally, without exaggeration, world-class pyrography artist. And I know that's weird because you feel like, just little old me.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's little Jen in her like house with her children. Like, I went to art school.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: and but like Because you feel like you. you don't feel like, okay, but...
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: But honestly, Jen, if you look around out there and you look at the number of artists who are capable of that level that you're at, it's very, it's exceedingly small.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's ah such a such minute group of people. So from that point of view, and Eric, I think this is how Jen and I started collaborating. i was like, Jen, we got to push this price point.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like from an earth And she did.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And Jen did push the price point. And what she noticed is she still sold shit. And now eventually she got to a price point where the sales started declining some, but that's okay because she was making twice as much as she used to make.
E-lectronic mail: Yeah.
Jen: who
Jen: hu
E-lectronic mail: Well, and that's also how you know what the market will absorb, right?
Jen: Right.
E-lectronic mail: You know, like if I came out tomorrow and sold that whole table I just made for $20,000, nobody would buy it.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: People would be like, what the fuck, man? Like, but who the fuck do you think you are? But that grows over time slowly. And then at some point you find out where the market is saturated and you go like, okay, this is this is where I live.
E-lectronic mail: This is what people, you know, but it's hard to the point that I was making.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: it's It's really hard. It's scary to push that further and further because anytime somebody says no, it feels like a reflection on your humanity, not not the object.
Jen: Oh my gosh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Jen: Yes, absolutely.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes.
Jen: It does. Yeah, it does. When I was selling things at a lower price point, they would sell quickly. um and then I'm like, could I have charged more for that?
Jen: But I didn't until Paul talked me into it.
E-lectronic mail: Hmm.
Jen: Like also I've only been wood burning since 2017. twenty seventeen And I'm, when did we meet?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, that doesn't matter.
Jen: But it did to me, though.
E-lectronic mail: It doesn't matter.
Jen: It did to me.
E-lectronic mail: Sure, sure, that's fair.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: ah no
Jen: Like, imposter syndrome is a real thing.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: No way.
E-lectronic mail: Sure.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Your artistic skills could have manifested in any medium. It didn't have to be woodworking. it couldve it could it woodburning It could have been any medium. And you would have been like whoosh right at the top.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Like you have the underlying skill sets to manifest your art in almost any medium. It just turns out that wood burning was what happened.
Jen: And I feel like I, I mean, I do other mediums. That's what went to school for, but I feel like I took off in the wood burning world because it was ah novelty at the time.
E-lectronic mail: Uh-huh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yes, and there are so few people.
Jen: Making that little full circle. Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: There are so few people who do it, and even fewer who do it with a furniture maker, right?
Jen: h
Jen: Pretty sure we're the only ones.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Or like a – I know. I've never seen anyone. Everyone's just taking like a slice of a tree and like doing a portrait.
Jen: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So like ah rare you know like that novelty component rises higher and higher.
Jen: Yeah.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: And I think that's helped our price point coming back.
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: But that's also like, so I don't, I don't want to just consistently shit on the novelty of it as though it's like, um you know, this is a thing that we're doing.
Jen: have
E-lectronic mail: So it's doing well because nobody else is doing it because that's, that's good. But that also has a mildly negative connotation. Like it's only successful because nobody else is doing it. but that's just you guys finding your voice.
E-lectronic mail: Like that's, that's you finding the thing that you do that works in succeeds. And so you keep doing it and it becomes a positive feedback loop. That's a good thing. Like, you know,
Jen: Mm-hmm.
E-lectronic mail: Before the Beatles, there wasn't like digital or not digital, but like there wasn't that manipulation in studio of like soundtracks and feedback loops and all of this weird, like fucking hippie music until they made it popular. And then people went like, holy shit, like this is something new and it works. So let's do that. And then that spawns other things.
E-lectronic mail: So it's just it's you guys figuring out your niche and giving an audience a chance to support you in that niche.
Jen: Okay.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, Eric.
Jen: okay
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you. Yeah, good point.
Jen: yeah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: So we're at an hour 20 now and we've totally...
E-lectronic mail: Yeah, we should shift. right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, so let's let's let's skip the second segment. We'll put that in the after show.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. That's a good after show seg.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Okay?
E-lectronic mail: All right.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right.
E-lectronic mail: So, so we do need to give a shout out to our sponsor, our Lord, our Savior, William Teresa Burkle. um And he is once again, is once Garrett, that's a Garrett goddamn dude.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's not Teresa. His middle name is not Teresa.
E-lectronic mail: That's an Eric Curtis guarantee. He is once again, sponsoring this episode so here's what i want to know jen going ask you a few questions based on what they're selling over there and i want to know what you think these things are okay so so first and foremost uh first and foremost from april 21st until june 20th they're doing a giveaway of mag switch jen what's a mag switch
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I love it. I love it.
Jen: Just got really hot in here.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: yeah
Jen: um ah magnetic switch.
E-lectronic mail: All right, if going to basic bitch about it
Jen: Um, is it woodworking related?
E-lectronic mail: Yes, it is ah the name of the store is WTB Woodworking, so we can assume that everything in there is roughly related to woodworking.
Jen: Um, okay.
E-lectronic mail: Give me a specific... how Okay, all right, let me ask a different question. How would you employ a MagSwitch product in your shop?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Yeah, Jen, what do you do with your mag switch?
E-lectronic mail: What do you do with your MagSwitch?
Jen: um
E-lectronic mail: when When the cat's away, the mouse come out to play. What do you do with your MagSwitch? All
Jen: I use it to smooth my wood.
E-lectronic mail: right. Okay. Interesting.
Jen: ah just killed Paul.
E-lectronic mail: so
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I don't know what to say to that.
E-lectronic mail: So MagSwitch makes a product called ah ah a Pro Vertical Featherboard. What do you think that does?
Jen: That sounds like a cat toy.
E-lectronic mail: ah yeah A pro vertical feather board?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It sounds like a cat toy.
E-lectronic mail: That sounds like a BDSM toy if I'm reading that. Okay, it's a cat toy.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
E-lectronic mail: All right.
Jen: It sounds like...
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. ah All right. So um on that note, a dual roller guide. What do you think? What do you got? What do you think?
Jen: say Say that again.
E-lectronic mail: A dual roller guide?
Jen: oh
Jen: I'm going to say it's a ah set of rollers that you put your wood slab on so that you can feed it into planer.
E-lectronic mail: What machine? This is crucial.
Jen: a planer?
E-lectronic mail: A planer.
Jen: Yeah.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, so it's kind of like a power feed situation, or is it ah is it an under brace?
Jen: Yeah, let's go with that.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric, I got to be honest. She's pretty close.
E-lectronic mail: She's not far away.
Jen: Oh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: She's very close.
E-lectronic mail: Okay. Well, a dual roller guide in this circumstance is actually a resaw guide. So you talk about bearings on the, on the resaw, but, but there are roller guides that are stands for like extra support for extra length.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: So I'm going to give that to you. That's a check.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, you you got credit for that one.
Jen: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: That's a check.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You got it.
E-lectronic mail: That's a check.
Jen: Yes.
E-lectronic mail: Feather board.
Jen: I'm proud of myself.
E-lectronic mail: You got a, you got a minus, but we got there.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I would like to give her credit for the cat toy, i actually.
E-lectronic mail: I'll give her credit for the cat toy.
Jen: Can you tell me what it is?
E-lectronic mail: The feather board, a feather board is a, is a product that, um, keeps, uh, pressure against a piece of wood to push it against the fence. So it's, it, it looks kind of like fingers at an angle.
E-lectronic mail: And so the reason it's shaped, well, it also kind of looks like the strands of a feather.
Jen: How is that feather?
E-lectronic mail: So the reason it's angled that way so that it can go through in one direction, but it can't go through in the other direction.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: Friction. Friction will push it ah against the fence stop it from doing that.
Jen: okay
E-lectronic mail: Okay. um So I've i've got, ah so both of those products are made by MagSwitch and they're doing a giveaway until June 21st. So the total value is $1,029.82. So you can go register at wtbwoodworking.com slash giveaway. Jen, I've got one more riddle for you.
E-lectronic mail: um I want you to complete this saying for me.
E-lectronic mail: Blank goes together like Festool and Franks. I'll say that one more time. Blank goes together like Festool and Franks.
Jen: Blank goes together?
Jen: fest... Hmm. What the heck is that?
E-lectronic mail: What goes together like Festool and hot dogs? Like what what do we got here?
Jen: Oh, you actually mean hot dogs? I don't even know what festool.
E-lectronic mail: I mean hot, yeah, I don't mean a guy named Frank.
Jen: I don't know. don't even know what festool is.
E-lectronic mail: Hit me with something, now now be mindful.
Jen: Let's go with...
E-lectronic mail: It does have to rhyme.
Jen: It has a rhyme.
Jen: I was gonna say baked beans.
E-lectronic mail: Baked beans?
Jen: I like having baked beans with hot dogs.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: good
E-lectronic mail: What, who are you? What?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: like Eric, Eric, take the answer and move on, dude.
E-lectronic mail: A baked bean dog? What the fuck, hold on, no, garbage. What the fuck is a baked bean hot dog?
Jen: No, not on my hot dog.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, so it's not like a chili dog situation.
Jen: Like, next to. oh no.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Oh, Jesus, Eric.
Jen: Mm-mm.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, all right. Well, I still don't love it, but I'm going to let it slide.
Jen: What is it?
E-lectronic mail: There's no answer.
Jen: What is a festool?
E-lectronic mail: work It's a creative opportunity.
Jen: But what's a festool? What's a festool?
E-lectronic mail: of what What's a FezTool?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: I love it, Jen.
E-lectronic mail: What's a FezTool?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, I love it. I love it.
E-lectronic mail: ah Well, you see, ah Bill does FezTool Fridays, which is every Friday from 11.45 to 12.45. You can come get a hot dog and watch a live FezTool demonstration, which is a tool brand.
Jen: Okay.
E-lectronic mail: You seem dis dissatisfied with that answer. Oh,
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Eric she's gonna light you up in the after show I guarantee it
Jen: Yeah. ah
E-lectronic mail: Christ. All right. So in the after show, me, Paul and Phineas Tuneman are going to talk about needless tools ah and what we think are the absolute non-essentials in the shop and why the fuck are these even made?
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: we should also talk about Jen's sequel book that she's writing to Fire and Fins and the the journey of Phineas Tooneman
Jen: Nope. Nope. Nope. nope
E-lectronic mail: Have we have we have we released the first book yet?
Jen: Nope, all of that is wrong.
E-lectronic mail: What are we doing here?
Jen: No.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: It's in the query trenches as Jen DiRenzo dot writer likes to say.
Jen: Oh, cheese and rice.
E-lectronic mail: Is this like is this like a Zanga site? Like what's the situation out here?
Jen: I don't even wanna know what that is. um
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: the sequel is going to be called Gonads and Goldfish.
Jen: Nope, dope, nope. Oh my gosh.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Well, on that note, let's wrap this shit up.
Jen: o
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thanks, Jen.
E-lectronic mail: Hey, goodev good ep, good ep, Jen.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen.
E-lectronic mail: Thank you.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Thank you. that this like
Jen: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Even though we covered pricing in a different way before, I think this is a totally fresh conversation about whether you should design to a price point or not. And ah Eric, so many good points today.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Jen, thank you for for bringing this up today.
Jen: Yeah. Thanks for having me.
E-lectronic mail: Thanks, fra um friend.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: All right, we'll see you the after show. If you want the video feed and the after show, just subscribe to our Patreon.
E-lectronic mail: right, friendos.
Jen: ah
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: You know where that is.
E-lectronic mail: Okay, bye.
Jen: Bye.
Woodworking is Bullsh*t: Bye everyone.
