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Episode 36 - Should THE PRICE guide THE DESIGN?
5 Plays2 minutes ago
When you design something, should you be thinking about the final price upfront? Does that help guide you toward a sale of the piece or does that HINDER your thinking, prohibiting you from making AN EVEN BETTER PIECE?? Are we thinking practically about marketing, price point, and MAKING THE SALE, or are we LIMITING OUR CREATIVITY or ability to break into even HIGHER PRICE POINTS?
Join us for a spirited discussion on this topic with our friend and occasional co-host Jen Diarenzo. To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction of Hosts and Their Backgrounds
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and Greetings and salutations, woodworking world.
00:00:20
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:00:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is your favorite not woodworking podcast. ah Woodworking is bullshit.
Ethical Considerations in Pricing
00:00:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And we have two co-hosts in the chair today.
00:00:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We have my man, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator. And with us, our friend who you may recognize if you're on the video feed, Jen Pyrography Extraordinaire Diorenzo.
00:00:47
Jen
Hello.
00:00:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So today's episode, ah we're recording actually because of Jen. Jen brought this question to me that like last week and she felt pretty passionate about it.
00:00:59
Jen
Yeah.
00:01:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so let's begin with the question for today's episode. Now, We've talked about pricing your work before.
Designing to Price Points
00:01:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And the the specific episode was price point, um how to increase price point and the moral and ethical considerations of doing so. That was our first attempt at price point.
00:01:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think you remember that was with Jack, who's like, one way to increase the price point is to just increase.
00:01:32
E-lectronic mail
Is to just have the best voice in podcasting.
00:01:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
is to just increase the fucking price point and stop being a stop being a little bitch and grow a sack. So that that was the advice from that episode. But Jen came up...
00:01:44
Jen
You will not be hearing that from me.
00:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's always time, folks. We can turn this around. If we get Jen to speak in a sexy voice, we'll consider that a win for today.
00:01:54
E-lectronic mail
If we get Jen to call somebody a little bitch, I will retire from podcasting because I will have accomplished my dreams.
00:02:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm pretty sure I can...
00:02:01
Jen
your dreams. Oh, you poor thing.
00:02:03
E-lectronic mail
It's a low bar, but I feel pretty good about it.
00:02:05
Jen
You poor thing.
00:02:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm pretty sure I can exasperate Jen to the point that you'll call me a little bitch. I'm almost positive.
00:02:12
Jen
Yeah.
00:02:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i bet.
00:02:14
Jen
Yeah.
00:02:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i bet. um You call me a big fat turd. I mean, is that that different?
00:02:19
Jen
yeah
00:02:20
E-lectronic mail
Is it? Is it? Let's dive into the ethical considerations here.
00:02:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it but Okay. So what Jen brought up is a different pricing idea, which is should you design your pieces to to a price point, meaning think of a price point and design the piece to match that price point.
Approaches to Price Point Design
00:02:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so today we're gonna talk about Is designing to a price point a good idea, a bad idea? What are the implications of doing so? I think the three of us may have actually different ideas about this.
00:03:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the first thing I want to do, and before, don't you fucking explain a thing. Listen, what I want to know is, do you typically design to a price point? Yes or no? Save the explanations for later.
00:03:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay? So Jen, do you design to a price point typically?
00:03:18
Jen
No.
00:03:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:03:20
Jen
so Sometimes.
00:03:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sometimes what, no, sometimes Jen.
00:03:22
E-lectronic mail
but She's already qualifying it. It's like hard maybe.
00:03:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Jen, what percent of the time let's, let's do a percent rather than yes or no. What percent of the time do you design to a price point?
00:03:31
Jen
Okay.
00:03:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what percent of the time do you just leave it open?
00:03:37
Jen
Let's say 50-50.
00:03:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Eric, what is your percentage?
00:03:42
E-lectronic mail
That's such a hard question because um um I'm going to do my best not to qualify this. Okay.
00:03:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah your' I can tell you're teeing it up.
00:03:49
E-lectronic mail
But... but
00:03:51
Jen
Yeah, it's coming.
00:03:53
E-lectronic mail
but But I would say no with the asterisk of I typically work on commission and they by definition have a price that we've already settled on. So kind of.
00:04:08
E-lectronic mail
But i don't I don't consider that the the the primary concern in the design process. So that's why I'm saying no.
00:04:18
Jen
And that's why I said the same thing. Only I just chose not to explain it like Paul said.
00:04:21
E-lectronic mail
Okay. All right.
00:04:24
Jen
So.
00:04:24
E-lectronic mail
I... Well, fuck Paul. Like, I do what I won't.
00:04:26
Jen
Yeah.
00:04:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
he's a little He's a little bitch.
00:04:29
E-lectronic mail
I'm a salty little bitch. Paul, do you design to a price point?
00:04:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:04:33
Jen
Yeah.
00:04:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sometimes I would say I'm about 50-50-ish.
00:04:40
E-lectronic mail
Oh, you literally just said we're all going to disagree and then we had the same fucking answer. Okay.
00:04:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I said I design to a price point more often than you do, bitch.
00:04:50
E-lectronic mail
Okay. All right. Touche.
00:04:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why coming after me?
00:04:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so let's start then, Jen, let's start with um some, I think we should talk about why would people design
00:04:59
Jen
Yeah.
Hidden Pricing Strategies
00:05:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
to a price point?
00:05:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, why is that a good thing to do?
00:05:10
Jen
So... if we're we're going to start there, ah i think the main point of designing to a price point is so that your piece sells faster.
00:05:22
Jen
If you are designing to, let's say, a low price point, something that you know will sell real quick, I'm more motivated to do that if I want to get it out of my studio faster.
00:05:35
Jen
you know what i mean?
00:05:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I do.
00:05:37
Jen
If I, yeah. So kind of like Eric was saying, though, like, I would say 50% at least, if not more, of my work is commission-based.
00:05:48
Jen
And ah do a lot of pet portraits. I know people don't want to be spending major bank on something like that. So i kind of have set prices that I know will sell, that I know I can easily do yes and get a yes.
00:06:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That you'll get a yes.
00:06:06
Jen
Like, it's... Nine times out of 10, people say, yes, I can take that price and I'll get the job done and get it
Balancing Creativity and Price
00:06:13
Jen
out.
00:06:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you've already... Go ahead, Eric.
00:06:13
E-lectronic mail
Now, how how did you come up with that price?
00:06:17
E-lectronic mail
Is that you threw a price out there and somebody said yes, and then you realize it took you way too many hours to do that, so you had to up your price over time and experience? Or is it you looking at the market and seeing what other people are selling pet portraits for and working within those boundaries?
00:06:36
Jen
The first thing you said, because honestly, I don't actually know what other people are charging for pet portraits. It's not like there's master guide online anywhere.
00:06:48
Jen
And most artists that at least I've checked out don't have their prices actually listed on their website because they want to be able to kind of judge the situation Not necessarily like see, oh, do you think I can charge more from this person or not?
00:07:05
Jen
But just like, at least with the work that I do, like certain like hair textures will take me longer and I'll charge a little bit more for something like that versus like a smooth coat dog.
00:07:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Jen, why actually you bring up a, and we'll come back to design to a price point for a sec.
00:07:21
Jen
So...
00:07:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You bring up an interesting point that I've always wondered about. Why is everyone so chicken shit to publish their prices?
00:07:34
E-lectronic mail
Because then you can't charge people who can afford your work more money.
00:07:34
Jen
That's an excellent question.
00:07:37
E-lectronic mail
It's as simple as that.
00:07:37
Jen
Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right.
00:07:40
E-lectronic mail
i mean right like like I mean, listen, what what we are doing is we are um creating products that are not scalable.
00:07:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:07:41
Jen
Yeah.
00:07:49
E-lectronic mail
So we're trying to price it as though it's a product that's repeatable, but the thing that we're doing is by hand, and so it's not...
00:07:53
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm.
00:07:57
E-lectronic mail
Scalable by definition. So we have to do it one at a time. And what that means is you're going to have an average price point for some people. That's going to be a stretch. And for you as the the person and I should I should speak from the first person for me as the the creative person behind the the piece.
00:08:14
E-lectronic mail
Um, sometimes I'm going to make decisions that make it go over time and over budget. And that's the choice I make. And that's balanced out by people who can pay more for similar object.
00:08:27
E-lectronic mail
So it all comes out in the wash. So those, that I think that's why people don't do it is they are trying to basically subsidize their income by, uh, uh, having a kind of sliding price scale for lack of a better way to phrase it.
00:08:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:08:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. So Eric, do you think that by publishing all my prices on my website for the last five years, is that making a mistake or locking me in?
00:08:41
Jen
Yeah, that's...
00:08:51
E-lectronic mail
No, because you can always raise those prices. But maybe because then, you know, somebody who wants a thing that you don't want to make, there's the fuck it price is a real thing, right?
00:09:02
E-lectronic mail
And like, if you don't want to make the thing, but they see you've already charged $400 for that box, and then you come around and you go, well, that box is going to be $1,000.
00:09:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, yes.
00:09:11
E-lectronic mail
They're like, well, what the fuck, man?
00:09:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i So I think what I've done is I've increased my prices on my website over time to reflect where I'm at. And I reprice the entire, I reprice things on the website, like over, you know, they these are the prices you see now are not my seven year ago price.
00:09:14
E-lectronic mail
You're not going to get that sale.
00:09:34
Jen
Right now for the pieces that you have are your, I don't want to do this ever again pieces that you have say listed.
00:09:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I usually double the price.
00:09:44
E-lectronic mail
yeah
00:09:44
Jen
So if somebody comes to you though and says, will
00:09:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
Market Dynamics and Pricing on Social Media
00:09:47
Jen
you make me that for that price?
00:09:48
Jen
Are you still willing to do it?
00:09:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The old price?
00:09:51
Jen
No, whatever price you have listed on your website, the new.
00:09:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, ah so I put the fuck it price on something and someone's like, hey, would you make that?
00:09:57
Jen
Yeah.
00:09:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:09:58
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:09:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, i would.
00:10:00
Jen
Okay.
00:10:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, you and I have two teaboxes on my website with fuck it prices on them because you and I don't want to do them again.
00:10:03
Jen
Yeah.
00:10:04
E-lectronic mail
Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But would we? Would we? We absolutely would.
00:10:06
Jen
ah Right.
00:10:09
Jen
Yes. Yep.
00:10:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:10:11
E-lectronic mail
Well, so, so what, what's the difference?
00:10:11
Jen
You're right.
00:10:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, we would.
00:10:12
E-lectronic mail
Like, so what you're effectively doing by, by doing that is you're honing in on the same group of people who can afford that work and want to pay you for that work without, without like, you're doing it kind of preemptively.
00:10:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I suppose.
00:10:29
E-lectronic mail
So you're not doing anything different.
00:10:29
Jen
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:10:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I think I cater to the higher price ah group. And then if if I want to give a discount, I can. And it makes people feel great. Like if I want to make the sale to a person who doesn't have as much disposable income, I can always discount it.
00:10:39
E-lectronic mail
Sure, sure.
00:10:41
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:10:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then everything else is like, you know, regular price. Anyway, sorry. I just was curious. Like I'm always... perplexed by how taboo pricing is.
00:10:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I just don't feel like it should be as taboo, which is why I publish my prices. Everyone can see them. All the other inward workers can see what I charge on my website, like in the half or...
00:11:04
E-lectronic mail
But we, we just, we have a thing in American society about talking about money. People don't like to do it. We like to keep it secret. And you know, like 200 years ago, it was the, the trade secrets that you kept under a blanket.
00:11:17
E-lectronic mail
Somebody would walk through your shop and you throw a blanket over your work so they couldn't see what you were working on or how you were going to do it.
00:11:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:11:23
E-lectronic mail
Right now it's money.
00:11:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
human Humans, humans.
00:11:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:11:24
E-lectronic mail
Now, now it's, it's protecting how much I'm going to charge for this so that you can't undercut me by $10. You can't, you can't prices write me, you know?
00:11:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now humans, humans. Okay. Back to, back to business. So I asked Jen, why would someone want to design to a price point?
00:11:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:11:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And your answer was basically because they know they have a sale. It like guarantees the sale, right?
00:11:45
Jen
Yes.
00:11:47
Jen
And if you do enough of it and you get enough product out of your studio, it's also going to help kind of build your notoriety for your work.
00:11:58
Jen
And if you the more people you get recognizing your work, maybe then you can start designing to higher price points down the road.
00:11:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:12:07
E-lectronic mail
So as I was reading your your notes and your questions, the first thing that jumped out at me is the question of scale, because it seems like you're flirting with this one-off versus product like situation.
00:12:11
Jen
Yeah.
00:12:26
E-lectronic mail
you know like
00:12:27
Jen
Yeah.
00:12:27
E-lectronic mail
Let's take the concept as the product, maybe, like the pet portrait. You've done a million pet portraits. You know roughly how long it's going to take. You can upcharge slightly. But so, so you can put those in a price bracket. You have ah a rough guideline on how to price those.
00:12:43
E-lectronic mail
Um, but the, the thing that you're describing is I couldn't tell if you are talking about designing an object to a price point for a one-off or for a thing that you are going to make repeatedly because that changes things, but it changes the way that you approach it.
00:12:43
Jen
Yeah.
00:12:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, either, actually.
00:12:58
Jen
o Yeah, I...
00:12:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Either.
00:13:01
E-lectronic mail
I think, well, so
00:13:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, go ahead, Eric.
00:13:02
Jen
I... Go
00:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How? Oh, there's Jen.
00:13:05
Jen
doc go ahead, Eric.
00:13:06
E-lectronic mail
So I think if you are making a one-off, you kind of understand innately that you're probably going to eat some of the time. whether it's in the design time, whether it's in a, I thought it was going in this direction.
00:13:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:13:20
E-lectronic mail
Now it's going into this direction, or I made a mistake because I, I, you know, I wasn't sure how to do this. So now I'm doing it this different way.
00:13:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:13:25
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:13:26
E-lectronic mail
You're going to eat that, which means you're going to lose profitability. If you are designing a product, what you are doing that first time is your prototyping.
00:13:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm.
00:13:34
E-lectronic mail
And so by the time you hit you, what you're looking at is designing to the price point of once you've, uh, um,
00:13:35
Jen
True.
00:13:42
E-lectronic mail
for lack of a better phrase, like effectively maximized efficiency.
00:13:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:13:47
E-lectronic mail
um And so that changes the way that you approach the pricing structure.
00:13:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:13:52
Jen
I agree, yes. But if you are making a piece that is just meant to be one-off, that's it, no more. Like, it doesn't need to be a prototype.
00:14:00
E-lectronic mail
Hmm.
00:14:01
Jen
This is the only piece that you're going to do. I would hope that I would not eat my time. Do you know what I mean? Like, I want to be able to charge something that'll make it worthwhile because this will be one-of-a-kind special thing.
00:14:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whoo!
00:14:19
Jen
So, like, for instance, Paul and I are brainstorming new collaboration, um and we plan on just... I plan on only making one of these.
00:14:32
Jen
I don't know if Paul has the same idea or not, but we're kind of stuck right now deciding, do we want to have full on creative freedom with this or do we want this to sell fast?
00:14:46
Jen
In which case we would need to kind of stifle our creativity to a point because if we go crazy, we'll have to charge more. But my question is, like, when you go crazy, or maybe I'll ask it as a question.
00:15:04
Jen
When you have total creative freedom over something, and you're giving it the best of everything that you've got, talent-wise, skill-wise, and you're posting that on your social media, do you find that those type of pieces – get better views, better interaction, more interest in purchasing that item rather than the pieces that are more simple with lower price point.
00:15:34
E-lectronic mail
God, that's a hard question.
00:15:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. The pieces where I've really reached have not realized the price I hoped they would.
00:15:39
Jen
Yeah.
00:15:43
Jen
Really?
00:15:44
E-lectronic mail
I don't think they ever do.
00:15:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Consistently.
00:15:46
Jen
now
00:15:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They have not. Whereas the pieces that I thought were really good, like kind of me like upper medium, like medium, but like upper medium, like really solid have recognized prices above what I expected.
00:15:58
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:16:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like when I go for the max, I never get it.
00:16:01
Jen
Really?
00:16:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But if I just, if I'm like, yeah, let's do really good. Sometimes it it hits like bonus land.
00:16:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's weird.
00:16:13
Jen
How do you get to bonus land, though?
00:16:15
Jen
It's not like they're going to offer more than what you are asking.
00:16:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, right. Like, I'll sell one, and then the next one I'll charge more, and the next person will say, absolutely.
Value Beyond Money in Collaboration
00:16:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love that box so much.
00:16:25
Jen
Okay, so so it's not a one-off thing.
00:16:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then the next one, even more. Yeah.
00:16:28
Jen
Yeah, okay.
00:16:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, it's like two or three.
00:16:31
Jen
So what would you do, though, for, like, say this next project? I don't know if you want to say what it is.
00:16:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh with you and me? you could You could talk about it.
00:16:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:16:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a traveling bar.
00:16:39
Jen
Okay.
00:16:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like a traveling liquor box.
00:16:40
Jen
Yeah.
00:16:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, Eric, do you remember we saw that at the...
00:16:41
Jen
Yes. ah Yeah, Winother.
00:16:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Winterthur.
00:16:45
E-lectronic mail
Hell yeah.
00:16:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you remember?
00:16:46
E-lectronic mail
Hell yeah, man.
00:16:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh okay.
00:16:46
Jen
Yeah.
00:16:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So for the for the audience who doesn't know this, right around the time COVID had just kind of let up and the first, you know, like the world was sort of opening again, I took a trip down the East Coast.
00:16:47
E-lectronic mail
Yep.
00:16:57
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:17:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And on my trip, Jen and and Eric both live in Pennsylvania. And i stopped and visited both of them. And we we all went to the Winterthur Museum together one day, the three of us.
00:17:14
E-lectronic mail
Can I just say, Jen, you were a delight. You are a delight. I was reasonably convinced after that day that you would never speak to me again.
00:17:27
E-lectronic mail
i was afraid that I had offended you so.
00:17:30
Jen
No, it takes a whole lot to offend me. Seriously.
00:17:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude, if she's friends with me, you know you're in the clear.
00:17:36
E-lectronic mail
that's well that That's what I was like, ah, she likes this guy.
00:17:36
Jen
Yeah.
00:17:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:17:37
Jen
Look at this. Yeah.
00:17:39
E-lectronic mail
So, you know.
00:17:40
Jen
ah
00:17:41
E-lectronic mail
um Yeah, but at that winter, their museum.
00:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:17:44
Jen
yeah
00:17:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
As we were at Winterthur, Jen and I were we were walking through one of the rooms and, Jen, was it you who spied the liquor box?
00:17:54
Jen
I think it was, yeah, because I took pictures of it because I just, I don't know, there was something about it that I loved. And yeah, yeah.
00:18:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was like ah it was like a traveling bar, right? Like like a travel like a traveling, ah like a but a satchel almost with like four compartments and like a nice top and um you could put your bar.
00:18:10
Jen
Yeah. It was like a bar and a purse, basically.
00:18:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:18:15
E-lectronic mail
You know how good that's going to sell?
00:18:18
Jen
See, so that's where we're at.
00:18:19
E-lectronic mail
A bar and a purse?
00:18:20
Jen
that's where we're at
00:18:21
E-lectronic mail
All right, but here's the thing.
00:18:22
Jen
Do we go full crazy and make it everything that we want to be and hope that it'll sell at that price that matches all of our time and effort that we put into it?
00:18:24
E-lectronic mail
It's...
00:18:31
E-lectronic mail
it's a gamble, right? It's like sitting down at the poker table.
00:18:33
Jen
Right.
00:18:35
E-lectronic mail
It's, it's do you... do you put all your cards or all your chips into the table and you go like, i'm going to ride this one out because it only takes one. It only takes one person to be like, fuck, I need a bar and a purse, you know?
00:18:49
E-lectronic mail
And, and then that, and that person, but, but here's, that this is, this is like, this is the tricky thing about what I was talking about.
00:18:50
Jen
That's what we need to call it now.
00:18:56
E-lectronic mail
Like scalability. Is it a product or is it a one-off? Because if it's a one-off, if it's a one-off,
00:19:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One off.
00:19:03
Jen
That's a one-off.
00:19:03
E-lectronic mail
then you need one person who loves your work to go, not only do I love Jen, not only do I love Paul, I love when they collaborate.
00:19:13
E-lectronic mail
And this is a really interesting idea. And I want to be a part of this and I want to support them. And that invariably brings the price point up because you're doing something interesting and unique that you don't know how to do.
00:19:25
E-lectronic mail
And you're exploring and pushing yourself. And those people like... We call them patrons for a reason, right? Those are the people who are like, I want you to do shit that makes you a better artist.
00:19:30
Jen
Yeah.
00:19:36
E-lectronic mail
And I'm willing to fund your, your exploratory process. If it's a product and now Jen and Paul are not the focal point, then you have to start to consider how people are going to react to the object itself and not you. Cause you are no longer linked to the story of the object.
00:19:55
Jen
I think we definitely always try to have or share our story too behind our pieces because I do think that helps sell things.
00:20:05
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, it, it, no, a hundred percent people.
00:20:05
Jen
At least in my experience. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:08
E-lectronic mail
don't remember who said it, but like it's, it's a well-known saying that, that people buy the artist, not the art people are invested in you as the creative person and they want to support you as the creative person.
00:20:16
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:20:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, you make good points.
00:20:25
E-lectronic mail
But, but if you're not, if it's going to be a thing, The more you make, the more it becomes removed from you. And so you price it differently.
00:20:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:20:34
E-lectronic mail
And you think about what the price is going to sell the 30th, the 50th, 100th time you make it.
00:20:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's so good. Eric, that's really great fucking advice.
00:20:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:20:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good job.
00:20:45
E-lectronic mail
Thanks, buddy. I've been making shit for a while.
00:20:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It hurts me a little. It hurts me to say that.
00:20:49
E-lectronic mail
When I'm right. ah
00:20:52
Jen
Paul just died a little inside.
00:20:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that was so good, Eric.
00:20:54
E-lectronic mail
It happens. It happens.
00:20:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:20:57
E-lectronic mail
But so, so, all right. So another question that I had, if I may cut Paul off, uh, is the, the bracket. So are you trying to design to in Jen, I'm asking you this specifically about this project.
00:21:11
Jen
Okay.
00:21:11
E-lectronic mail
Um, are you trying to design to a price point or a price bracket? So let's put it this way.
00:21:17
Jen
oh
00:21:19
E-lectronic mail
You walk into a craft show. And there are different tiers of craft shows, right? So let's say you walk into like a craft fair. It's outdoors. It's in a tent. There are people selling knickknacks and spoons and CNC'd signs.
Iterative Design and Pricing Evolution
00:21:33
E-lectronic mail
The bracket that that person is willing to impulse buy something Maybe, maybe up to a hundred bucks, $10 to a hundred dollars.
00:21:42
Jen
Yeah.
00:21:44
E-lectronic mail
Over a hundred dollars. People are going to be like, ah, not today. I got to think about it. A, uh, craft show, like the, the PMA, the Philadelphia, uh, something, something craft show.
00:21:56
E-lectronic mail
Um, that show people might impulse buy, piece that's anywhere from 300 to 3000.
00:22:06
Jen
Yeah.
00:22:06
E-lectronic mail
You know, so, so what type of audience are you trying to put this in? What context does it live in? And what bracket are you working to sell? Because if you're saying, I want to sell this for $99, whatever the object, let's take the purse out of it.
00:22:20
E-lectronic mail
I want to sell this for $99. That's a hard thing to hit.
00:22:23
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:22:23
E-lectronic mail
And you got to go through a lot of iterations before you come out with that product. But if you're trying to say, I think it's going to be somewhere between $500 and $800, that's a window that's a little bit easier to hit. And then you have some leeway where you can maybe upsell like, hey, the Ash is $500, but the walnut is
00:22:44
Jen
who I guess so. All of our work collaborations have just been put onto Instagram.
00:22:57
Jen
That's like our craft fair. And on social media, you kind of have the whole spectrum looking at your stuff, right?
00:23:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:23:05
Jen
So I don't know if I can fairly give a price bracket aiming for a particular product. set of people. Okay.
00:23:15
E-lectronic mail
I'm going to push back on you.
00:23:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right
00:23:16
E-lectronic mail
I don't think that's true because you both have enough of an audience and have sold enough pieces on the internet that you know roughly what your price bracket is.
00:23:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I know that this liquor box is not going to be any less than $2,000. I know it's in the multiple thousands.
00:23:29
E-lectronic mail
Sure. Okay.
00:23:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know that because there's no way with what we've talked about doing with Jen, like putting pyrography, like imagery all over it and like beautiful like drawers and openness and fall front that like there's just and like custom leather, like strap over the shoulder.
00:23:31
E-lectronic mail
okay
00:23:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like there's just no way we're going to be able to do that for less than a few, several thousand, like a few thousand.
00:23:53
E-lectronic mail
Okay. So what are we talking?
00:23:54
Jen
Right.
00:23:54
E-lectronic mail
Give me, give me a range here.
00:23:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, without knowing anything, i would think, you know, $3,000, $4,000 price range is probably what that that's what I had in my head.
00:23:58
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:24:02
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Let's call it, let's call it $3,000 to $5,000. Okay. We got it.
00:24:06
Jen
Okay.
00:24:06
E-lectronic mail
We got it.
00:24:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, what did you have in your head?
00:24:09
Jen
probably about the same.
00:24:11
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:24:11
Jen
And I wasn't talking like a whole spectrum of trying to appeal to the $99 crowd all the way up to the $8,000.
00:24:16
E-lectronic mail
Sure. Sure. I was just, was throwing out random numbers just like have different brackets of things.
00:24:18
Jen
Right. But like, so this is where we're stuck. Like, do we want to aim for that $5,000 or do we want to try to keep it to the $2,000? Because I kind of feel like that's, that's a bit of a range, right?
00:24:32
Jen
Like,
00:24:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it is.
00:24:33
E-lectronic mail
Sure. Well, okay. So let's, let's think about the audience that you both have on Instagram as, um, what type of audience, like what type of show you're at?
00:24:44
E-lectronic mail
Paul, have you sold a $2,000 piece on Instagram?
00:24:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:24:48
E-lectronic mail
Jen?
00:24:49
Jen
Yeah, with him.
00:24:50
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Have you, have you sold a $3,000 piece on Instagram?
00:24:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
00:24:55
Jen
Yes, with him.
00:24:56
E-lectronic mail
Four?
00:24:58
Jen
I don't think we know.
00:24:59
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Okay. So now we're talking, so we were kind of finding what the upper range of what your audience is willing to do. Now, if you have a thing that you think is like special, it's interesting, it's unique, and you are able to articulate to, again, it just takes the one person.
00:25:06
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:25:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, sorry. Yes. Yes.
00:25:15
E-lectronic mail
If you're not making a product, you did sell 4,000.
00:25:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:25:19
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:25:20
E-lectronic mail
So, so
00:25:20
Jen
What did we do?
00:25:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i saw I sold up to six at six once.
00:25:21
Jen
You did.
00:25:24
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:25:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:25:25
Jen
Okay.
00:25:25
E-lectronic mail
So, so we have that range of what your audience is willing to absorb.
00:25:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Once. Once. Hmm.
00:25:29
E-lectronic mail
Of course, but it only takes one, you know? So if you have that range, now we know this is not a craft fair range. They're willing to invest in you as an artist, Paul. They're willing to invest in you as an artist, Jen.
00:25:43
E-lectronic mail
So can you make this thing in that window of three to five and you go like, okay, I know it's going to end up somewhere in here and I feel like somebody is going to take it up.
00:25:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Without a doubt.
00:25:50
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:25:54
E-lectronic mail
From my perspective, my approach, and this is not...
00:25:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What should we do?
00:25:57
E-lectronic mail
that What I would do is just make the fucking thing and look at it at the end and just go like... but like You can you've both have enough experience to just kind of read the thing and go like, is somebody going to spend $4,700 for this thing or is it a $3,200 thing?
00:26:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:26:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm fine with that.
00:26:17
E-lectronic mail
You know?
00:26:17
Jen
yeah
00:26:18
E-lectronic mail
And then if because it's still in that range, you know you're not losing money at least.
00:26:18
Jen
yeah
00:26:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, the truth is we're not doing it solely for the money. I mean, Jen and I are doing this because we want it we want to do it. I mean, I think first and foremost.
00:26:30
E-lectronic mail
Well, that's a big part.
00:26:30
Jen
I've been wanting to do it since 2021. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
00:26:34
E-lectronic mail
So, all right. But this this is another thing though, right? Because so what the value you're getting out of it is not exclusively the money.
00:26:37
Jen
yeah
00:26:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:26:42
E-lectronic mail
The value you're getting out of it is the portfolio.
00:26:43
Jen
right
00:26:46
E-lectronic mail
The value you're getting out of it is is telling your audience that this is a thing you're looking to explore more in the future.
00:26:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's true.
00:26:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric...
00:26:52
E-lectronic mail
And maybe when you articulate that at a different time down the road in a different object, somebody's willing to invest in you to support you to do that.
00:26:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so Totally.
00:27:00
Jen
Yes.
00:27:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I agree with that. i mean, Eric, I'll ask you, how often do you see like a world-class pyrography artist like Jen working with a a woodworker, like ah a decent woodworker?
00:27:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like to me, it's so rare.
00:27:15
E-lectronic mail
Not, yeah, not that often, man. Not that often. and
00:27:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I never see that combination.
00:27:19
E-lectronic mail
There,
00:27:22
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:27:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I think Jen and I, like we get, you know, it's so fun for the two of us because Jen has these canvases that are not just like slices of tree.
00:27:22
E-lectronic mail
no
00:27:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I get to see decoration on my pieces that I'm not capable of because I i don't have those kinds of artistic chops that Jen does. So I think it's like a win-win for both of us, regardless of the money in some ways.
00:27:31
Jen
Yeah.
00:27:44
Jen
Yeah. And like you said, or at least in my experience, any of the big ticket items that we have worked on will get more attention on social media than like, say, right.
00:27:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because they're novel.
00:28:00
Jen
So even if we don't sell it for the price that we want, at least we're building more of an audience that may want something bigger in the future. Right.
00:28:07
E-lectronic mail
there's I've had a number of times in my career already where somebody has been following me for multiple years, four, five, six years, or somebody saw my work at a show 2015, and then they get in touch and they me to do a thing.
00:28:28
E-lectronic mail
But it's the thing that catches their eye. And that, that look, you could make this, this you know, bar purse. And maybe maybe maybe it doesn't sell. Or maybe it sells for $2,500. And you're like, gosh, you know, like, fuck. That kind of sucks. But the the value of doing a portfolio piece, even if you little eat a little bit of the profits, is down the road. Now that exists in your vernacular.
00:28:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:28:55
E-lectronic mail
And down the road, somebody comes and they go like, that was a super fucking cool thing that you did.
00:28:56
Jen
Yeah.
00:29:01
E-lectronic mail
Can you do that for me?
00:29:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric,
00:29:02
E-lectronic mail
And now your price, because you're fucking seven years more experience, you're like, yeah, now that's the $7,000 piece.
00:29:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so Eric, it's funny you say that because you know that, you know, the stadia whiskey cabinet that I did with Keith, the the two of them.
00:29:13
E-lectronic mail
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:29:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, the second one sold last week.
00:29:17
E-lectronic mail
Yeah?
00:29:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
out of the thin blue air, just like, just out of nowhere.
00:29:17
Jen
Congrats, buddy.
00:29:20
E-lectronic mail
Yeah? Hell yeah, man.
00:29:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The first one's in Japan, the second one's in Puerto Rico now.
00:29:25
E-lectronic mail
Sure? Puerto Rico.
00:29:27
Jen
Wow, that's awesome.
00:29:27
E-lectronic mail
Okay. All right.
00:29:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And And that's an example where Keith and I were hoping for like a higher price point for those because there's so much fucking work.
00:29:34
E-lectronic mail
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
00:29:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
they were They were definitely – they were pilot tests, but they were good pilot tests.
00:29:37
Jen
They're so cool.
00:29:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We made them good, right?
00:29:41
E-lectronic mail
Sure, sure, sure.
00:29:43
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:29:43
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:29:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we were hoping for like $4,800, $5,000 range, and they wind sold for like $3,000 range instead $5,000 range.
00:29:47
E-lectronic mail
Yep.
00:29:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But, you know, we take it grain salt because – three thousand range instead of five thousand range
00:29:52
E-lectronic mail
Sure.
00:29:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but you know we had to take it with a grain of salt because Keith got his YouTube videos out of it. We had a fucking great time making these together.
00:30:00
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:30:03
E-lectronic mail
There's so much value in that too, you know?
00:30:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it It brought us together.
00:30:06
Jen
Yeah.
00:30:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i mean, we're in the shop together for days, right?
00:30:07
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:30:08
Jen
Aw.
00:30:10
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:30:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like it was so good. Like I don't even care. i just want someone to enjoy it at this point, you know?
00:30:16
E-lectronic mail
i Well, and so that that brings me to another question that I had reading your notes, Jen. um the I mean, listen, I told you, I prepared a little bit for this one, which is a nice change of pace.
00:30:27
Jen
I am so proud.
00:30:28
E-lectronic mail
Okay, thank you. I need some positive reinforcement over here. So... ah so
00:30:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Agent of Chaos.
00:30:33
E-lectronic mail
so
00:30:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
00:30:35
E-lectronic mail
So as as I was reading, um if we go way down to the bottom, we're talking about like you bring up this. You called it the the pricing conundrum.
00:30:47
E-lectronic mail
And you use this this person, um this artist who is selling her paintings for a hundred dollars.
00:30:48
Jen
You're...
00:30:55
E-lectronic mail
And she's making a bunch of them, selling them on Facebook. They're selling out immediately. And ah eventually, because of popular demand, she starts doing this thing. Well, she's not raising her price.
00:31:06
E-lectronic mail
And then she is, eventually, she comes up with kind of a second bracket of $600 paintings. And she's selling those alongside. And they're both selling out. And the the question is basically like, why didn't she raise her prices?
00:31:19
E-lectronic mail
And the thing, I don't know if this is a parable or a real person that that remains unclear.
00:31:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, she did.
00:31:23
Jen
No, it's a real person.
00:31:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wait, wait.
00:31:25
E-lectronic mail
This is a real person.
00:31:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wait e Eric, as you read down, she did, if you read further down.
00:31:25
Jen
It's a real, yeah.
00:31:25
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:31:29
E-lectronic mail
She that she raised her prices or that she came up with a third tier of 2000 to sell along with the 600.
00:31:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:31:33
Jen
No.
00:31:35
E-lectronic mail
So. Yes.
00:31:36
Jen
that That third tier is a hypothetical. She has not yet done that, but that would be the next logical step for her.
00:31:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I thought... You said that, wait, she used to sell the paintings for 100.
00:31:40
E-lectronic mail
so
00:31:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Then she came the up with the best paintings for 600.
00:31:46
E-lectronic mail
yes
00:31:46
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:31:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:31:49
Jen
She was still selling both.
00:31:50
E-lectronic mail
But she's still selling $100 paintings. Yes.
00:31:51
Jen
she was still she will
00:31:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
correct
00:31:53
E-lectronic mail
yes
00:31:53
Jen
Her plan is to always sell $100 paintings because her main goal, as stated in the article that I read, is that everybody should be able to have a piece of art in their home.
00:32:04
E-lectronic mail
And so this this then brings up the point that I was going to talk about.
00:32:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:32:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:32:07
E-lectronic mail
Because what like asking yourself what your value add to your community is or to the thing that you love is, is a really important thing to do.
00:32:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead.
00:32:18
E-lectronic mail
And if your goal, if your value add, like if if my priority is myself and my value add is money, then raising your prices is the thing to do.
00:32:25
Jen
hmm. Mm hmm.
00:32:28
E-lectronic mail
And I think that's the structure in which we are living. That's the structure in which we grew up. That's the thing that we know. That's what people encourage us to do. My value add in making things out of wood is not to make as much money as I can.
00:32:41
E-lectronic mail
my value add for myself is that I would be miserable doing anything else. And the value add for making content, now it's become my business. So there's there's other things tied in with it. But the reason I started is because sharing the things that I'm doing and teaching other people ah who might be going through a hard time in their lives to like find a thing that they can do and they can feel successful at and that can feel empowering, that's hugely impactful.
Balancing Passion and Market Expectations
00:33:08
E-lectronic mail
And so that I get a lot of value out of that for me personally. And I think that reverberates in the community in some small way. and And so the price point almost becomes secondary to the object and to the the teaching other people how I make the object.
00:33:24
E-lectronic mail
So figuring out what your value is that you're trying to find and and get out of it. Again, if it's only money, that's totally fine. But identifying what the primary value is in the secondary and tertiary value, I think that's an important thing that we don't often do when we're talking about pricing because money is the thing that drives all of these conversations.
00:33:46
E-lectronic mail
So what I guess what I'm asking is what's your value? Like what's your value add? What is the thing you get out of pyrography? What is the thing you're hoping to get out of this liquor purse?
00:33:58
Jen
So i guess the main reason I'm going to kind of rephrase your question a little bit. The main reason that I keep doing pet portraits, even though I am really burnt out on doing them, and that pun was totally intended, um, is because I know it makes people so happy.
00:34:19
E-lectronic mail
Does that make you happy?
00:34:20
Jen
Yes, it does. Um, so I'm not taking as many of those commissions anymore, um, but it's still something that I feel like I just can't let go 100%.
00:34:34
Jen
um
00:34:34
E-lectronic mail
Did you did you or do you have pat
00:34:37
Jen
Yes, I have a dog.
00:34:38
E-lectronic mail
Okay. That's like it, because that, that sounds like an answer of somebody who knows the, the difficulty and pain of losing a pet and multiple pets, you know?
00:34:48
Jen
Oh, yeah, my dog is 12.
00:34:49
E-lectronic mail
And yeah, I mean, my, my dog just died six months ago, you know?
00:34:50
Jen
He's, yeah, I'm...
00:34:56
Jen
I'm sorry.
00:34:56
E-lectronic mail
And it's, it's yeah.
00:34:56
Jen
I'm really, I'm so sorry.
00:34:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, really, Eric?
00:34:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Your family dog?
00:34:58
E-lectronic mail
Huck died in, in August.
00:35:00
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, I know.
00:35:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, fuck.
00:35:02
E-lectronic mail
And it's, it's bre every fucking time it happens, it's fucking devastating, you know?
00:35:06
Jen
They are, they're family. So it is
00:35:07
E-lectronic mail
It is. It is. And so giving giving that that back to somebody feels really important to you, even though you're burnt out on it.
00:35:15
Jen
it does. It does. Yep. So
00:35:18
E-lectronic mail
Okay. let's take pet portraits. One good example. like you You are a pet lover. You want to give something to those people. What's this purse given to you?
00:35:30
Jen
one Fun. Like I've been dying to do this project.
00:35:34
E-lectronic mail
That's... that has real value.
00:35:37
Jen
feel like I finally have talked Paul into starting it because it's...
00:35:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
even though Even though, Eric, even though Jen loves to pretend like she just wants to shit on me 24-7, she has to admit that when we work together, it's fun as fuck.
00:35:53
Jen
It's fun. It's fun. But like, the just the creativity, because I don't have a lot of creativity when I'm doing pet portraits.
00:36:02
E-lectronic mail
Okay, so what whats what's the creativity here?
00:36:02
Jen
I'm i'm literally copying a picture. it for the For the purse?
00:36:05
E-lectronic mail
What are you going to do with it? That's it.
00:36:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
00:36:07
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:07
Jen
Oh my gosh. i have a I have a list of ideas of things that we want to do to this. So it started off with just this plain... i mean, ah the wine liquor box at Winnithar really is not that impressive.
00:36:20
Jen
It just kind of...
00:36:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we've we've evolved it out of that.
00:36:23
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Okay.
00:36:23
Jen
it's It's just sparked something in me, in us, I guess, that we want to make it bigger and better. like Like Paul was saying, like, let yeah, yeah.
00:36:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A traveling bar, honestly.
00:36:34
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:36:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:36:35
Jen
Like, I'm so freaking excited.
00:36:37
Jen
But like, um now I'm at the point of brainstorming, like, okay, what do I burn on it? Are we going to have a theme? Like, what kind of... What clientele market are we trying to sell this to?
00:36:48
Jen
Is it going to be for females? Is it going to be geared towards men? Like, I don i don't know. It's just, it's all up in the air.
00:36:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but see, that's that's almost like designing to a price point in a way.
00:36:57
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, you're designing to to a group of people.
00:37:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:37:01
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:37:01
Jen
Right. But do you find that men or women pay more than the other?
00:37:04
E-lectronic mail
No, no, no, no. It's different from the price point itself, but you're still like, whether you're designing to a price point, which is a group of people who can afford that price point or a group of people by gender, ah nationality, region like whatever, whatever the the modifications are, they're similar.
00:37:06
Jen
Yeah. Right.
00:37:13
Jen
Right.
00:37:20
Jen
Yeah.
00:37:24
E-lectronic mail
But so you're you're articulating this huge amount of excitement to do the thing, this creative freedom that you want to have in this thing.
00:37:31
Jen
Yeah, because I don't get that pretty much anywhere else. So my fear with designing to a price point is that it's again going to stifle my creativity because I just want to go crazy.
00:37:45
E-lectronic mail
Okay, Jen, can I can i can i suggest something? I'm just going to put this out here.
00:37:49
Jen
Absolutely.
00:37:51
E-lectronic mail
Fuck the price point.
00:37:51
Jen
Yeah.
00:37:53
E-lectronic mail
just Just fucking do the thing.
00:37:53
Jen
Well, that's my goal. Paul's the one that brought up having a price point, and if I'm going to be honest.
00:38:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah well I was thinking a little practically at the time but well Eric you know you've kind of convinced me like we just fucking who cares throw a third caution to win just go for it yeah I'm with you I'm with you
00:38:04
E-lectronic mail
ah She said, bus meet Paul.
00:38:13
E-lectronic mail
Who cares, man? Just do the thing because then it sits for a fucking while because yes, because it could, it could, first of all, first of all, there's no point in doing a thing that you think will sell.
00:38:15
Jen
Yeah. And if it sits for a while, so be it. Yeah.
00:38:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and if we discount it so what
00:38:20
Jen
Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:29
E-lectronic mail
If it's going to make you miserable doing the thing and burn you out more, and then you stop doing the fucking thing that you want to do anyway. What's the point of that? Just get a real fucking job.
00:38:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:38:39
E-lectronic mail
There's zero point in that. Right.
00:38:41
Jen
Yeah.
00:38:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I have a real fucking job.
00:38:42
E-lectronic mail
But yeah,
00:38:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does.
00:38:43
E-lectronic mail
You do. You do.
00:38:44
Jen
you're the only one that does.
00:38:44
E-lectronic mail
You do.
00:38:45
Jen
No.
00:38:46
E-lectronic mail
gen Jen and I don't. Okay. We're out here just fucking riding the wave. All right, cowboy. but But the other thing is like, so so the rejuvenation of the creative process has a tremendous amount of value outside of the the financial.
00:39:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
does
00:39:02
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:39:03
E-lectronic mail
Now, in an ideal world, you would at a minimum recoup your costs. And then, of course, in an in a perfect world, you would get your your time back. And maybe you would even get paid a little extra because it's special and it's unique and it's different and nobody's seen it before.
00:39:19
E-lectronic mail
But the the the potential anytime you do something that is outside of that window that people know you for, they might hesitate to to engage with it.
00:39:31
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:39:33
E-lectronic mail
But the only way to get them to engage with it over time is to continue to introduce them to those new types of things. Like you nudge, you nudge the people who want to support you 5%.
00:39:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric Eric
00:39:44
E-lectronic mail
You can't just turn it 90 degrees.
00:39:44
Jen
It's kind, yeah.
00:39:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric fuck you you're right again
00:39:50
Jen
I have a point to make that just that with Paul bringing up, Paul, the only one with a real job is the one bringing up, telling me that we should have a price point.
00:39:50
E-lectronic mail
You can't. Okay, go ahead.
00:39:59
Jen
I just have to throw that out there.
00:39:59
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, this motherfucker. This motherfucker out here
00:40:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, don't forget Phineas Tooneman, Eric.
00:40:01
Jen
ah
00:40:03
E-lectronic mail
Old, old daddy greenbacks, we call him. Motherfucker.
00:40:10
E-lectronic mail
He's all about them Benjis.
00:40:15
Jen
I'm using that. I'm going to use that.
00:40:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh
00:40:17
E-lectronic mail
ah We got Aloha one out of the last episode. Old daddy greenbacks is coming for a t-shirt on this one.
00:40:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don't forget phas tunena and eric
00:40:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, okay, okay, wait, okay.
00:40:30
Jen
So...
00:40:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We've gone way off, like way off the the outline that i was I had in mind, but okay.
00:40:35
E-lectronic mail
Okay, bring it back, buddy.
00:40:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but But I think it's, Eric, you've really touched on some excellent points.
00:40:37
E-lectronic mail
Bring it back.
00:40:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just, see, this is where, like, sometimes the episodes go off the path that I imagine them going on. And I have like notes in front of me to keep them on the path. But like you have brought this conversation, like it went way off the path from what I expected, but you, you covered.
00:40:56
E-lectronic mail
This is shocking.
00:40:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. But you covered some such great points through this, like using me and Jen as an example. Like it was so fucking good. god damn you.
00:41:07
E-lectronic mail
Well, ah you're welcome.
00:41:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
00:41:09
E-lectronic mail
I love you too. ah see I will say, and maybe maybe we, ah do we have anything else to cover on this? because
00:41:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes.
00:41:19
E-lectronic mail
Okay, okay, okay.
00:41:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh God.
00:41:19
Jen
Yeah.
00:41:20
E-lectronic mail
Well, well in that...
00:41:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Okay. So I want to have a little more structured look at the designing to a price point, right? I think there are some pros and some cons against it. And I'd like to go through them.
00:41:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Eric, Eric, I think you're in a great position to push back after I go through these. Like I want your reaction after I go through these, because I think you're the most outside, like Jen and I are kind of like unified on this. And I think it would be interesting to hear your view.
00:41:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:41:45
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:41:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Pros, like the pros of designing to a price point. It can help sales. That's what Jen said, because you target a specific audience with a specific price point.
00:41:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Totally on board with that. Number two, limitations can actually help the creative process because instead of a white piece of paper in front of you, you have very specific design considerations.
00:42:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that we know that that can help, right? We know that.
00:42:16
Jen
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
00:42:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We've talked about that many times. The third thing, it um you can make more pieces per year because they're like simpler. You can like iterate faster.
00:42:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we know that helps with not only your own personal development, but also building a buying audience. So, Eric, there is... um You know, you talked about the pricing conundrum. This person, this woman who like sold her paintings for $100 and they sold out.
00:42:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and they sold out And then the audience grew and they kept selling out. And then she introduced $600 and those sold out.
Creative Exploration and Audience Growth
00:42:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And now she's thinking about multi-thousand and they're going to sell out because she's as she iterates on those $100 pieces, her buying audience is getting larger and larger and larger over time.
00:43:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So there's there's an audience enlargement piece to that story that we didn't quite touch on, which I think is important.
00:43:13
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:43:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And finally, you know the um does designing to a price point force you to be creative in new and different ways? It almost throws down the gauntlet of like, what can I do within the confines of the next six hours on this piece? Okay, so those are some of the pros.
00:43:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What are the cons designing to a price point? Well, it puts limits on your creativity as as far as what you can do. ah It's going to be probably lacking novelty, like big, bold ideas that do so well on social media. like That's not going to be in a price-limited piece, right?
00:43:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Those big, bold, paradigm-shaking ideas come when you really break the mold. You're not like, oh, I'm already at $500 worth of effort. I got to stop, right?
00:44:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, the the the second the then the third con is you may be missing out on identifying your really big spenders because you're not asking you're not like going for it.
00:44:17
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:44:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're saying, oh here's another $100 painting. Here's another $200 this. And so like how do you identify your big spenders if you're not going for it? Okay, another con, you may get comfortable at that price point and then you're scared to elevate the price in the future.
00:44:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right? So those are some cons against it. So I've listed some pros about like, you know, it helps you, it helps sales. It helps with creativity because limitations can help that. It means you iterate more. And then there's cons like you limit your creativity and you don't identify your big buyers.
00:44:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, uh, you know, you might get stuck in that kind of small minded thinking. So Eric, what do you think?
00:45:03
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Can we, can we, can we go through this? So I agree with some, I disagree with others. Can we go through these one by one and just like agree, disagree and why?
00:45:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Please. Sure. Yep. Go ahead.
00:45:12
E-lectronic mail
So, so the first one right off the jump, um, the, the first pro it can help, it can help sales because you're, you're targeting a specific audience with price point.
00:45:12
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:45:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It can, it can help sales.
00:45:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:45:23
E-lectronic mail
Um, I don't disagree with that, But you also kind of like, that's not dissimilar. It's kind of two sides of the same coin to the con of you might get stuck at that price point and scared to go up for fuel ah fear of failure.
00:45:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. Yeah.
00:45:39
E-lectronic mail
So like, so it's a both and, right?
00:45:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:45:42
E-lectronic mail
Like, you know what your audience is willing to buy. We've already established. So Paul, your willing your audience is willing to spend up to 6,000.
00:45:47
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:45:51
E-lectronic mail
Jen, up to 4,000.
00:45:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:45:53
E-lectronic mail
So you can work within that. But what if you make a piece that's 8,000? You know, like, are you going to be afraid to to raise it up? You know, so they're they're more or less, you know, the the same argument in reverse.
00:46:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:46:08
E-lectronic mail
um Let's see. The limitations can absolutely help the creative process by focusing the path. I agree with that 100%. So giving yourself some limitations can really ah remind you to not go overboard and just get the fucking thing done.
00:46:24
E-lectronic mail
So I agree with that 100%. um It means you make more pieces per year. Does it? Does it though?
00:46:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does. Yes, it does.
00:46:32
E-lectronic mail
Yeah?
00:46:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
100%. Jen, Jen, Jen.
00:46:33
Jen
Did, how do you, i would that was the one that was holding me up too. Like, because you're because you're designing to a lower price point, if like if I'm just focusing, like take that woman with the $100 paintings, if that's all I'm doing, I'm gonna get bored real fast.
00:46:37
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Why is that holding you up, Jen?
00:46:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah jen jen
00:46:39
E-lectronic mail
Okay.
00:46:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
che
00:46:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but you're going to look, look, come on. This is not like, there's no mystery here, Scooby-Doo. Like Jen, how how many hundred dollar pet portraits can you make in a year versus thousand dollar portraits?
00:47:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Duh, right?
00:47:06
Jen
It's, it's, it's, it's the, yeah, I can, but am I going to?
00:47:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that's a different question. That's a different question. Whether you have the motivation to do it.
00:47:15
E-lectronic mail
but
00:47:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like if if I make, well, Eric, Eric.
00:47:16
E-lectronic mail
But I think it's an important question if you're just assuming robotic like output.
00:47:18
Jen
Yeah. ah
00:47:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
eric if I decide in a year that I'm going to make stadia boxes, I can make several hundred easily. No problem.
00:47:27
E-lectronic mail
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:47:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
As opposed to like five big pieces. Right. So like, sure. You know what I'm saying? Smaller pieces. You can iterate more. That's just the, the, the, go ahead, Jen.
00:47:36
E-lectronic mail
Okay, all right, that's fair.
00:47:39
Jen
Let's take look at your your coasters that you did. Was that before Christmas?
00:47:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:47:44
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:47:44
Jen
those the You made those to a certain price point, right?
00:47:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I did. Yep.
00:47:48
Jen
Okay. Would you want to keep doing those over and over and over and over and over and over and over?
00:47:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
fuck no
00:47:54
E-lectronic mail
ah Yeah. Yeah. And so at some point what happens at some point, what happens is it's a Tuesday at 8am and you're like, I really don't want to go fucking make coasters.
00:47:57
Jen
I rest my case.
00:48:06
E-lectronic mail
So then now all of a sudden you're in the shop instead of 8am, you're in the shop at like 845. And then like, it's like lunch is at noon, but now it's 1130 and you're like, i'm fucking over watching the CNC.
00:48:16
Jen
Yeah, I think.
00:48:17
E-lectronic mail
So like your output slows because of lack of motivation.
00:48:21
Jen
And lack of creativity, and I think that's just as important as the the can you and the will you.
00:48:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, but...
00:48:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, but look, bear with me. I think iteration, like making many of a thing has really, really positive impacts.
00:48:32
Jen
I'm trying.
00:48:37
E-lectronic mail
Yes, a great a agreed, agreed.
00:48:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, and I have a parable, right?
00:48:39
Jen
Agreed.
00:48:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think you both know it, but just bear with me because I don't know if the listeners know this parable. It's a parable about creative work by, it's from David Bales and Ted Orland's book, Art and Fear.
00:48:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, it's about a pottery class. okay. So let me just tell you this parable, because I think this kind of summarizes what I'm getting at with this point. A ceramic teacher announced on opening day that he was dividing the class into two groups.
00:49:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All those on the left side of the studio, he said, you would be graded solely on the quantity of work that you produced.
00:49:13
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:49:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right. And so that's the left side on the quantity of work. On the right side, you'll be graded solely on the quality of work you produce. OK.
00:49:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The procedure was simple. On the final day of class, he would bring in his yeah scale and weigh the work on the quantity group. Fifty pounds of pots gives you an A. Forty pounds of pots gets you a B and so on and so forth.
00:49:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Those being graded on the quality part, however, it's not about the weight you produce. They would be graded on only one pot, albeit a perfect pot.
00:49:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
To get an A, you have to produce one perfect pot. Okay, quantity versus quality. Well, apparently came grading time and a very curious fact emerged that the works of highest quality were all produced by the quantity group, right?
00:50:14
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:50:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it seems that while the quantity group was churning out pot after pot after pot and piles and piles of work and learning from their mistakes as they did the quantity piece,
00:50:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That also led to quality at the same time. Meanwhile, the quality group sat theorizing about perfection and in the end had little more to show for their efforts than grandiose theories and a pile of dead clay.
00:50:45
E-lectronic mail
I agree with that 1000%.
00:50:48
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:50:48
E-lectronic mail
And I agree with the point that you're making, that making more objects makes you a better ah master of whatever craft you exist in. um I am very much of the opinion of quantity over quality.
00:51:03
E-lectronic mail
And you make a bunch of shit and then accidentally one day you make a good thing and then you try to figure out how you did that. But it comes from just making a bunch of shit. The thing that I'm pushing back on is that is inherently separate from price point.
00:51:20
E-lectronic mail
price but I think the way that you're you're pitching that to us is if you're looking for a lower price point, you care less, which is a fair point, I think. Correct me if I'm if i'm mistaken in that.
00:51:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I'm saying if you make a lot of objects at a lower price point, you will arrive at quality sooner that you can charge a higher price point for.
00:51:41
E-lectronic mail
Okay. All right. I won't push back against that statement.
00:51:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen?
00:51:45
Jen
But are the things that you're making at the lower price point even, um what's the word I'm trying to think of? Will it affect whatever the big thing is that you're trying to do?
00:51:57
Jen
Like um all these little pyrography pieces.
00:52:02
Jen
Are they going to, i don't know.
00:52:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, but Jen, let's use the Stadia collection as an example.
00:52:07
Jen
Okay. Okay.
00:52:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've made hundreds and hundreds of tiny little Stadia boxes. You've decorated many of them with pet portraits, right?
00:52:12
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:52:15
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:52:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that led me on the path to make a $3,000 Stadia whiskey cabinet. I don't know that that whiskey cabinet would exist had it not been for doing the hard work of just iterating on that shape so many times that it was stuck in my fucking head.
00:52:31
Jen
Okay.
00:52:32
E-lectronic mail
I hear that, and I think that's a totally reasonable point. What I want to know is where did the Stadia box originate? What was the first Stadia box you ever made?
00:52:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was researching the idea of human preference for shape and the answer was curvilinear and I thought, what's the simplest shape I could make a box that's curvilinear?
00:52:50
E-lectronic mail
Mm-hmm.
00:52:53
E-lectronic mail
Mm-hmm. and And how did you make it?
00:52:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With a router? What do you mean?
00:52:59
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, yeah. What was the actual process to make the thing with the router?
00:53:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I dug it out with Forstner, like drill press.
00:53:03
E-lectronic mail
The first one you ever made? The first one you ever made was Forstner bits, right?
00:53:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
first first ah Yeah, like drill press and then router to kind of clean it up, yeah.
00:53:07
E-lectronic mail
And then... Right, right? And how many did you make like that?
00:53:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One.
00:53:12
E-lectronic mail
Okay, and then you made a router jig, like ah like ah like a full actual ass jig.
00:53:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Yes, yes, yes, yes, as yes.
00:53:17
E-lectronic mail
And how many did you make like that?
00:53:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I would say about 30 to 50. And then I had a close call with the router where it almost ripped off some of my fingers and sparks went flying and it scared the shit out of me.
00:53:26
E-lectronic mail
Mmm. Mmm.
00:53:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then I bought a CNC because of that.
00:53:31
E-lectronic mail
Okay, and so so then so we're talking about a three-stage evolution of this box, right? Forstner bit and chisels, router jig, and then CNC.
00:53:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:53:40
E-lectronic mail
And then you learn the CNC, and I'm assuming that the the process of um efficiency, learning the machine, and then learning how to just jig it up and let it go, that's gotten faster over time as well.
00:53:51
E-lectronic mail
So you can kind of break that down in like a couple of different phases.
00:53:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Way faster way faster way.
00:53:55
E-lectronic mail
So this this product has evolved over time.
00:53:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:53:58
E-lectronic mail
How has the price changed?
00:54:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A little, not a lot.
00:54:05
E-lectronic mail
A little, but it's, it's probably not gone down. Right.
00:54:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It hasn't gone down, but I tried to keep it reasonable.
00:54:09
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Okay. Okay. But you, so you made a thing and you charged X and let's just say X plus one. So by the time you've made your hundredth and you're way more efficient at it, now you're charging more money for that object.
00:54:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:54:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is correct. I charge the same money or slightly more money for something that takes less time.
00:54:31
E-lectronic mail
Okay. So price point has nothing to do with this thing. It's just purely iterating because you had the idea that you wanted to make an object that was soft and was, um, uh, attractive to human beings.
00:54:43
E-lectronic mail
And it just so happened to work. And that gave you the, uh, uh, excitement, the, the buy-in to iterate this thing through more and more different processes and make it more and more efficient to keep it affordable.
00:54:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Correct.
00:54:57
E-lectronic mail
So the the price point that you initially sold it at, like when it was a theory versus what it is now, those are those are two entirely different things.
00:55:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:06
E-lectronic mail
They're entirely separate.
00:55:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair, fair, fair.
00:55:07
Jen
who
00:55:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, you're grinning like a Cheshire cat over there. What are you thinking?
00:55:12
Jen
I just like seeing Eric tear you apart. That's all.
00:55:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
love
00:55:15
E-lectronic mail
and was that It It wasn't... I'm not trying to tear them apart.
00:55:22
Jen
But I could see in your face that you're like, I'm going to get him. I'm going to get him. And I was like, yes, do it.
00:55:30
E-lectronic mail
Well, because he's he's he's talking about the the design and execution of like designing to a price point so that you can make more of an object.
00:55:41
E-lectronic mail
But the first time that you made this object, it like you just wanted to explore the idea of making something that was attractive to human beings.
00:55:41
Jen
yeah
00:55:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
00:55:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah.
00:55:49
E-lectronic mail
And it just, again, so so let's take the Stadia boxes out of it.
00:55:50
Jen
yeah
00:55:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:55:52
E-lectronic mail
How many objects have you explored with the idea of like, maybe this works, maybe it doesn't. And then nobody buys it. And then you go like, all right, well, maybe... Maybe I don't explore that.
00:56:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Maybe like three to five.
00:56:03
E-lectronic mail
Yeah. so So, okay. all right. So that's three to five different objects that could have been products that don't end up becoming products. Price point be damned.
00:56:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:56:13
E-lectronic mail
It's just that it didn't happen to catch on. You figure out the price point after people show some interest in the thing.
00:56:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, is your point, is your overarching point, don't worry about price point, just do the thing if you really want to do it, worry about price later, is that what you're saying?
00:56:18
Jen
yeah
00:56:26
E-lectronic mail
worry about the thing. And then if it works, like you don't know that it's going to work. You have no fucking idea. You could be designing the next BlackBerry where it's like it's hot for a hot second and then nobody gives a fuck about it. Whereas like the goal is to design the iPhone, right?
00:56:43
E-lectronic mail
So do the thing, see if it works. And if it works, then worry about how you're going to produce more at a reasonable rate for people.
00:56:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so now what you're talking about actually is an evolution of price point. I was talking about this with Jen. So you start your first couple versions are like low price.
00:56:59
Jen
Yeah.
00:57:00
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
00:57:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know where this is going. I don't know how to make it yet. We're just trying some shit out, low price. And then as the demand is obvious,
00:57:09
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:57:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and consistent, then you can iterate, make more, raise the price, make more, raise the price, add more, raise the price. Like it's kind of like an evolutionary, right?
00:57:23
E-lectronic mail
yeah
00:57:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:57:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
An evolution in pricing.
00:57:24
Jen
Yeah.
00:57:26
Jen
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the tea boxes. We did the first one, had it sold before was even done. So we made another one. It sold before I was done. And then we were like, we're done.
00:57:40
Jen
But people, at least on my end, people kept messaging me asking if we were going to make more. And at that point, we were ready to move on to the next thing. And you put it up on your website at the I don't want to do this again price.
Creative Fulfillment and Market Success
00:57:53
Jen
And that's and we haven't had any more.
00:57:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we haven't had any more.
00:57:57
Jen
So I think that's right.
00:57:57
E-lectronic mail
That's how you know you priced it right, then.
00:57:59
Jen
So I think the price that we did sell it at was the price. At least I don't think anybody has asked you for one at at the price.
00:58:09
E-lectronic mail
ah I trying to do the math there.
00:58:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry. Jen, sorry.
00:58:13
E-lectronic mail
The price that we sold it at is the price?
00:58:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
00:58:16
E-lectronic mail
That's... sure, sure.
00:58:17
Jen
I mean, is the most we're going to get?
00:58:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Eric, Eric, she's still cold and sober tonight.
00:58:20
Jen
Gosh darn it. Is the...
00:58:23
E-lectronic mail
she
00:58:24
Jen
ah Yeah, I'm drinking water. So I meant like that's what we're going to get. i don't think we're ever going to get the the price that you have it on your website.
00:58:30
E-lectronic mail
sure sure sure Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you you flooded the market.
00:58:36
Jen
Yes.
00:58:36
E-lectronic mail
And that's that's good. it's It's saturated.
00:58:37
Jen
Yeah.
00:58:38
E-lectronic mail
You know what the market's going to absorb. But that comes through iteration. That doesn't come through the idea of like, I'm going to develop a product and people are going to buy it for X.
00:58:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
00:58:49
Jen
Yeah.
00:58:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair.
00:58:49
E-lectronic mail
Okay, can we can we hit a couple of the cons real quick um before we move on?
00:58:49
Jen
Mm-hmm.
00:58:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, please.
00:58:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, go ahead.
00:58:54
E-lectronic mail
So the con, it puts limits on your creativity as far as how much you can do.
00:58:58
E-lectronic mail
I completely disagree with that. There's the that the adage, um I'm assuming it exists outside of cabinet shops, but I've only ever heard it kind of in the trades of like, the way to figure out the most efficient way to do a thing is to give the laziest man on the job the hardest task.
00:59:17
E-lectronic mail
And then he'll just figure out the path of least resistance. So I don't think that it limits your creativity. I think it puts restraints on how much time that you can give to an object.
00:59:29
E-lectronic mail
But then your job as the creative person is to figure out a more efficient path to do the thing that you want to do.
00:59:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, don't know, Eric.
00:59:34
Jen
I... No.
00:59:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're fucking playing word games. That's fucking semantics.
00:59:38
Jen
i I think...
00:59:40
E-lectronic mail
i Well, no no, no, no. I don't think is I'm not trying to play semantics. What I'm trying to say, what I'm trying to say very briefly, and then Jen, I'll let you make your point.
00:59:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, Jen, take his ass down on this point.
00:59:47
E-lectronic mail
What I'm trying to say is like, if you want to do X, but you only have Y number of hours and it won't work, your job is to figure out how to do X more efficiently or don't do X.
00:59:59
E-lectronic mail
Those are your options.
01:00:01
Jen
I'm not worried about time, though. Like, when i when I wrote that question, my thought was actual creative freedom. Like, I'm just going to keep using the wine purse. Like, all these things that we want to do to it, like the leather strap, the brass hinges, the pyrography, like...
01:00:22
Jen
all those things will add up time-wise, but they also add up cost-wise. So, at least on Paul's end, because he's the one doing all that work.
01:00:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Paul doesn't matter.
01:00:32
Jen
So...
01:00:33
E-lectronic mail
He's the one flipping the bell out here.
01:00:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Paul doesn't matter.
01:00:36
E-lectronic mail
He's the sugar daddy.
01:00:37
Jen
Daddy greenbacks. So...
01:00:38
E-lectronic mail
yeah Old daddy greenbacks, they call him.
01:00:38
Jen
um
01:00:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:00:41
E-lectronic mail
Oh my Christ. Okay.
01:00:43
Jen
I had to use it again.
01:00:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
de j
01:00:45
Jen
like...
01:00:48
E-lectronic mail
oh my christ
01:00:50
Jen
So like, that's where I meant like creatively, like if you are designing to a price point, say all those things add up to $5,000, but we only want to sell it for three, then we can't do all of those things that we wanted to do.
01:00:57
E-lectronic mail
okay
01:01:02
E-lectronic mail
Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
01:01:03
Jen
to do
01:01:03
E-lectronic mail
so So I was thinking more like your time costs more in an object than the materials, but that's a fair point. If I'm making a dining table for four grand and somebody wants a slab that costs 20 grand, well, that's outside the budget, so it limits things.
01:01:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
01:01:20
Jen
Right.
01:01:21
E-lectronic mail
That's a fair point. Okay. Sorry?
01:01:22
Jen
That's also why I don't charge for my time. Like, I feel like that's – I don't – I take that into factor.
01:01:25
E-lectronic mail
Sorry?
01:01:29
Jen
Like, i factor in my time, but I don't have, like, a set hourly rate. I don't keep track of how much time it takes me to do something. One, because I'm constantly interrupted by one thing or another.
01:01:40
E-lectronic mail
Sure, sure.
01:01:41
Jen
But two, like –
01:01:45
Jen
If we were, so I've been brainstorming this project. I have notes since 2021. There's no way I can charge for all that time.
01:01:53
E-lectronic mail
No, you can't. You can't. like there's
01:01:55
Jen
And I feel like even if it wasn't since 2021, like we spend so much time going back and forth, brainstorming, figuring out what kind of wood you want to use, like... can you Can you charge somebody for all of that?
01:02:07
Jen
It's going to go, your price point's going to go way up.
01:02:07
E-lectronic mail
No.
01:02:10
Jen
So can you obviously charge maybe for how much time it took you to actually make the thing, but that's not all of it on our end.
01:02:10
E-lectronic mail
No.
01:02:18
Jen
Do you know what i mean?
01:02:20
E-lectronic mail
No, I know exactly what you mean and you're 100%
01:02:21
Jen
so So that's why time is a factor, but it's I don't have an hourly rate. I don't think that that's fair.
01:02:29
E-lectronic mail
i don't I don't charge by the hour either. i I typically try to envision if I wasn't making content, how many weeks would it take me to do the thing? And then within the week, I have a lot of flexibility, right? Could be a 40-hour week, could be an 80-hour week, but at least I get to make that decision because to your point, like...
01:02:48
E-lectronic mail
There are times where I'm, and I've said this before, I'm walking around the streets of Philadelphia, you know, chewing on the cut of some idea. And I don't know.
01:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are you a cow?
01:02:56
E-lectronic mail
ah yeah a little bit. ah and And how do you charge it? Because like I could be thinking about three different things simultaneously.
01:03:01
Jen
Yeah.
01:03:04
E-lectronic mail
You know, I could be i could be two whiskeys deep walking around thinking about life.
01:03:04
Jen
Right.
01:03:08
E-lectronic mail
And then all of a sudden the idea pops in my head. I'm not keeping track of the minutes I'm thinking about that.
01:03:13
Jen
Right.
01:03:13
E-lectronic mail
So there's there is no way to charge for that.
01:03:16
Jen
But to your point of like the whole, given the so most ineffective guy in the shop, the hardest task, like that is kind of mostly focused on time.
01:03:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So
01:03:28
Jen
And to Paul's point, the question, like it's stifling your creativity.
01:03:35
Jen
ah i don't think it's the same thing. Like, I think they're two two separate points.
01:03:39
E-lectronic mail
so Okay.
01:03:41
E-lectronic mail
That is a fair rebuttal.
01:03:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, Eric. Yeah, Eric.
01:03:44
E-lectronic mail
I say, yeah, bitch.
01:03:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and any other Any other rebuttals, Eric?
01:03:48
E-lectronic mail
Um, the only other one that jumped out to me is the novelty and amazing, big, bold ideas do very well on social media.
01:03:48
Jen
Bye.
01:03:57
E-lectronic mail
And you may be forfeiting that opportunity. Um,
01:04:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:04:04
E-lectronic mail
novelty doesn't necessarily always do well on social media, but I think the point that you're making is like, you know, the hundredth pet portrait you make probably isn't going to go viral.
01:04:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think novelty is a key component of going viral on social media.
01:04:17
E-lectronic mail
Right. Right.
01:04:20
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think the things that do go viral typically are are novel.
01:04:21
Jen
yeah
01:04:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Our novel, yes.
01:04:26
E-lectronic mail
But I'm not...
01:04:26
Jen
Right.
01:04:27
E-lectronic mail
But everything novel doesn't go viral.
01:04:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
01:04:30
E-lectronic mail
You know?
01:04:31
Jen
Yeah, but you have a greater chance of that happening if you are doing something novel.
01:04:31
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
01:04:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true.
01:04:36
E-lectronic mail
Sure, 100%. However, it's also like you're you're playing a numbers game and you're playing a game with and maybe against the algorithm.
01:04:47
E-lectronic mail
So I would say the majority of the people who go viral, at least in our space, um are content creators. who are monetizing the contents virality and that matters.
01:04:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
01:05:02
E-lectronic mail
So let's take that. I've used this example on the pod before, but I'll use it again.
From Viral Content to Sales Opportunities
01:05:07
E-lectronic mail
um And this is no shade to either person who put out this content because they both, well, they both, they both did all of the right things, right?
01:05:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh.
01:05:16
E-lectronic mail
So Larissa has been making tambour cabinets forever.
01:05:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
OK.
01:05:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:05:20
E-lectronic mail
And she made this carved timbre cabinet. And ah last year at a party, um Johnny from Johnny builds was there and he saw the cabinet and he went, that's dope as fuck.
01:05:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
01:05:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
01:05:32
E-lectronic mail
And it inspired him to make a carved timbre cabinet. And before he put the content out, before he put the video out, he shot Larissa text and he was like, Hey, You know, are you cool with me um putting this content out because I i got it from you?
01:05:47
E-lectronic mail
And Larissa being the wonderful human being she is, she's like, I didn't invent timbre cabinets. I didn't invent carved doors. Fucking do what you got to do, man. Now, Johnny's a professional content creator. Johnny has a big following and big reach.
01:06:00
E-lectronic mail
And so that goes big viral. That goes, you know, like a couple mil.
01:06:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ye
01:06:05
E-lectronic mail
Johnny gets paid across Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. And then Jeff from Two Moose sees Johnny do that. And Jeff is a professional content creator. And he goes, well, that's going viral.
01:06:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
01:06:17
E-lectronic mail
So I should jump on that train. And it was still novel enough that that also went big viral.
01:06:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:06:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:06:23
E-lectronic mail
So this thing happens where like it's novel ah and people see that.
01:06:29
E-lectronic mail
And then people who don't know how the game works or maybe are little bit jaded about the social media game think like, well, you know, maybe, maybe Johnny sold that cabinet and that's helpful for Johnny.
01:06:43
E-lectronic mail
Johnny didn't give a fuck about whether the cabinet sold because he got paid good money on the content itself. So I guess I want to, I want to you know, chasing virality for the sake of selling a thing versus getting paid for the content itself.
01:06:58
E-lectronic mail
Those are kind of two different avenues.
01:07:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Good.
01:07:01
Jen
Sure.
01:07:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Good distinction.
01:07:03
Jen
and not all of us are, you know, get paid for content. So that's a different side of things too.
01:07:11
E-lectronic mail
Sure.
01:07:11
Jen
Like, yeah.
01:07:11
E-lectronic mail
But but also what that means is, like, the algorithm favors the people who are going to reach broader audiences and keep them on the platform longer. So if you do a thing, and it doesn't go viral, and you're like, fuck, man, like, I was really hoping it might, it might just be the circumstances.
01:07:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, could be.
01:07:29
E-lectronic mail
So it's, you know, like, it's kind of, it's lose lose in that regard.
01:07:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:07:31
Jen
Yeah.
01:07:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:07:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. So when Jen and I hope to go viral on a novel piece, I think we do it for the reason you mentioned earlier in the show, Eric, which is a year or two from now, maybe that customer who saw that will reach back out at a later time and be like, Paul, Jen, I love what you guys do together.
01:07:44
E-lectronic mail
yeah
01:07:46
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:07:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i want to. Yeah. So I think that's.
01:07:50
E-lectronic mail
yeah yeah well so all right so i'll give you a perfect example of this uh and and a little bit of the like
01:07:51
Jen
And like you said, it only takes one person to want the thing.
01:07:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:08:02
E-lectronic mail
it's it's not It's not a fuck it price because it was within a budget. um but So I made a coopered front cabinet, another whiskey cabinet last year for a gallery show.
01:08:13
E-lectronic mail
And it didn't sell at the show. and it came back and I was disappointed because I was like, you know, like I kind of priced it to sell at the show. And like I...
01:08:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How much was it? Okay.
01:08:23
E-lectronic mail
Um, I want to say it was like four, it was right around four, 38, four, something like that.
01:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like 50%.
01:08:29
E-lectronic mail
Um, and you know, galleries take a, a not insubstantial cut.
01:08:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
01:08:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like fifty percent yeah
01:08:34
E-lectronic mail
Right.
01:08:35
E-lectronic mail
So yeah, most galleries take 50%.
01:08:35
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:08:38
E-lectronic mail
This, this gallery only takes 30, which is a fucking, you know, miracle, but, but so it comes back and I was like, ah, you know, I mean, whatever, you know, like I made it because I wanted to make it and it was the thing that was important, but like, fine.
01:08:38
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:08:41
Jen
Steel, yeah.
01:08:51
E-lectronic mail
Um, Literally like three days ago, four days ago, I got a DM from somebody who wanted to commission a cabinet and he kept referencing that cabinet.
01:09:02
E-lectronic mail
And he was like, this is the thing, you know?
01:09:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh,
01:09:03
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:09:05
E-lectronic mail
And now the circumstances were such given where it's going to go in his house, that cabinet is not going to work. So we're going to do a different one. But he saw that cabinet and went, I want to pay you to make a cabinet.
01:09:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah. Good point. Great point.
01:09:16
E-lectronic mail
So without that cabinet, who knows if that commission comes through, you know?
01:09:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
01:09:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did the, did the original cabinet ever sell?
01:09:22
E-lectronic mail
No, it's hanging up next to my bed.
01:09:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it is, bitch. ah Well, you win some and you lose some, like you said.
01:09:28
E-lectronic mail
See you in some and you lose some, baby.
01:09:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but No, but that's a really good example of don't like if if a piece doesn't sell, don't sweat it. It may actually help sell future other pieces.
01:09:37
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
01:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a great point.
01:09:40
E-lectronic mail
Yes. Yes.
01:09:41
Jen
yeah
01:09:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Well, we're at um an hour 10.
Emotional Value and Pricing Challenges
01:09:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, do you feel like this was your brainchild designed to a price point? Jen, do you feel as though we covered... all the key concepts you wanted to bring up and feel free to elongate if we didn't.
01:09:58
Jen
um let me take I feel like we did yeah Yeah. My hardest, my hardest dilemma when thinking of any price, whether it's to a price point or actually i already did the thing and now I need to think of a price is just like, how do I put a value on something that I take into consideration time, ah materials and like just the fun that you had, the literal blood, sweat, and tears that you put into it.
01:10:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:10:30
Jen
Like,
01:10:32
Jen
I feel like I always want to charge more, but I know I can't. And I'm sure that every artist feels that way because you're most artists, no matter what medium you're doing, you're, you're kind of putting a little bit of your soul into, into your work.
01:10:48
Jen
And it's hard to imagine letting go of something, um even a piece that really means a lot to you. Like I really, i still love that second tee box that we did.
01:10:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I know. I know you do.
01:10:59
Jen
I mean, that that will always kill me that we sold that. But like, I wanted to sell it. I want somebody else to enjoy it, you know?
01:11:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:11:08
Jen
So yeah, that's that's the only other thing that I thought about talking about. It's just like that that conundrum that I'm sure everybody goes through.
01:11:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, between like what you thought the price point should be and like you got emotionally invested during the journey and then you loved it so much at the end.
01:11:20
Jen
yeah, yeah. yeah
01:11:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like, how do I sell it for that is that? Is that what you mean?
01:11:28
Jen
Yeah, sort of, yeah. I mean,
01:11:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Well, i had that I had that recently with a skull cabinet I made.
01:11:30
Jen
ah
01:11:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like It was this William & Mary style skull.
01:11:34
Jen
Oh, that thing was so cool.
01:11:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was I planned to sell it. I planned to sell it the whole time. And I was going to go between $6,000 and $10,000 on this cabinet because it was super, super involved, super fine furniture.
01:11:43
Jen
Hmm.
01:11:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like Every bit of detail. what like I spared not no detail. I went for it. And as I got closer and closer to it, and I started thinking about taking photos, I was actually going to ask Justin maybe to make a video of like the inspiration that brought this piece into being.
01:12:04
Jen
o
01:12:06
E-lectronic mail
Hell yeah.
01:12:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I thought about that. and i and And I asked Justin, would you do that? And he's like, yeah, He was like, yeah, man, no problem. you know like Justin was going to do that. and um and And as I got closer and closer, Jen, speaking to your point, I was so in love with this cabinet, I couldn't sell it.
01:12:07
Jen
That would be so sick.
01:12:25
Jen
You didn't sell
01:12:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I didn't. I want it.
01:12:28
E-lectronic mail
Hmm.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i just couldn't. like I love it so much. I'm like, why am I giving this away? I love this thing.
01:12:35
Jen
Yeah.
01:12:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want to see it every day of my life. I want my family to love it. I want my child to love it. Who's going to you know inherit it someday. I didn't sell it.
01:12:44
Jen
Mm-hmm. Do you regret that?
01:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was going to. No.
01:12:48
Jen
Do you regret? Say you could have gotten 10 grand for it. The highest amount that you ever could have made.
01:12:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't. No, not a bit.
01:12:54
Jen
No.
01:12:55
E-lectronic mail
Is this?
01:12:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because i the the the piece and it's it's like the the lineage and the... like What do you say? um The life that that piece will have in my family, in my house, with my family members for the rest of my life means more to me than $10,000.
01:13:17
Jen
Because you have another job.
01:13:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I have a Oh, dude.
01:13:21
E-lectronic mail
She said, because you all fucking Danny Greenbacks out here, course.
01:13:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Absolutely.
01:13:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, absolutely. Absolutely. Because if if it was about like affording food for my family or a place to live, you damn well bet I would have sold that motherfucker.
01:13:35
E-lectronic mail
Hmm.
01:13:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I have a J-O-B, so I didn't have to.
01:13:39
Jen
And then you would have regretted it though. Like I'm regretting.
01:13:41
E-lectronic mail
But that's the thing, right? Is like, yeah, you're youre you're in a position, thankfully, that you don't have to compromise, which is wonderful.
01:13:42
Jen
Yeah.
01:13:49
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:13:49
E-lectronic mail
um But when you do have to make those compromises, there are a couple of pieces that like, I'm like, man, I wish I hadn't sold that, you know? but
01:13:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Are there? Really?
01:14:00
E-lectronic mail
but But I mean, you know,
01:14:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
me one. Give me one. give me one
01:14:03
E-lectronic mail
Um, the now there's nowhere where this would exist in my house, but the the Demi Loon that I made in school, um because there are so many techniques that I would never do now.
01:14:15
E-lectronic mail
um And it's like I had so it was that was maybe the piece that challenged me the most while I was in school. And I think also the novelty probably of that's the only piece I did sell from school.
01:14:23
Jen
m
01:14:28
E-lectronic mail
So it's a little bit of like seller's remorse of like I, um, somebody in Boston, you know, and it fits, it fits their home, but it's a little bit like I have all of the learning pieces and I can kind of see my journey.
01:14:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where's it live now?
01:14:30
Jen
yeah
01:14:41
E-lectronic mail
Um, um, accept that one. It's like, it's like a blank page in the notebook, you know?
01:14:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
01:14:47
E-lectronic mail
Um, but so Jen, the the other thing I noticed in, in this discussion of pricing is, um, if you'll allow me to poke and prod just for a moment, um, there's, there's quite a bit of self doubt.
01:14:58
Jen
Absolutely.
01:15:03
E-lectronic mail
And I think that there's the, like,
01:15:09
E-lectronic mail
the the struggle of getting attached to a thing is one thing and then not wanting to sell it. That's one thing.
01:15:16
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:15:17
E-lectronic mail
But also the vulnerability is like, it's very real. The vulnerability of I poured my heart into this thing and now it's going to have an actual like number value on it.
01:15:26
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:15:31
E-lectronic mail
And that's going to, that's going to reflect what I'm worth as an artist, not what the object is worth.
01:15:31
Jen
Yeah.
01:15:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
01:15:35
Jen
That's yeah.
01:15:37
E-lectronic mail
Like that's a real thing that we contend with.
01:15:37
Jen
That's the point I was making.
01:15:39
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
01:15:39
Jen
Yeah.
01:15:40
E-lectronic mail
And, and the thing that I want to say to you and to, to everybody listening, cause I, I'm, I'm sure a lot of folks deal with this, this self doubt. I know that I have, and, uh, occasionally I still do is you're worth every single penny that somebody is willing to pay you for that piece and probably more because you weren't willing to ask enough for it.
01:16:01
Jen
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:16:02
E-lectronic mail
And it's, it's, you never, never feel guilty about somebody paying you for your time and your work and your expertise because they're paying you for that piece, but they're also paying you for the decade of experience that you have.
01:16:15
E-lectronic mail
Right. And they can always find somebody if they wanted to find the cheapest option, they would find the cheapest option. What they want is Jen's work.
01:16:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when I met Jen, she was very reticent to raise prices and ask a lot for her work.
01:16:33
E-lectronic mail
Hmm. Hmm.
01:16:34
Jen
who
01:16:34
E-lectronic mail
Hmm.
01:16:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She was like, I mean, very, very hesitant. And I was like, Jen, you don't understand how good you are.
01:16:47
Jen
I appreciate that, buddy.
01:16:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, i know I know it's weird. I know I've told you this before, and I know it's it's like hard to hear.
01:16:53
Jen
but
01:16:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But you are literally, without exaggeration, world-class pyrography artist. And I know that's weird because you feel like, just little old me.
01:17:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's little Jen in her like house with her children. Like, I went to art school.
01:17:10
Jen
Yeah.
01:17:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and but like Because you feel like you. you don't feel like, okay, but...
01:17:14
Jen
yeah
01:17:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But honestly, Jen, if you look around out there and you look at the number of artists who are capable of that level that you're at, it's very, it's exceedingly small.
01:17:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's ah such a such minute group of people. So from that point of view, and Eric, I think this is how Jen and I started collaborating. i was like, Jen, we got to push this price point.
01:17:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like from an earth And she did.
01:17:36
E-lectronic mail
Yeah. Yeah.
01:17:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Jen did push the price point. And what she noticed is she still sold shit. And now eventually she got to a price point where the sales started declining some, but that's okay because she was making twice as much as she used to make.
01:17:43
E-lectronic mail
Yeah.
01:17:44
Jen
who
01:17:51
Jen
hu
01:17:51
E-lectronic mail
Well, and that's also how you know what the market will absorb, right?
01:17:54
Jen
Right.
01:17:54
E-lectronic mail
You know, like if I came out tomorrow and sold that whole table I just made for $20,000, nobody would buy it.
01:17:55
Jen
Yeah.
01:18:00
E-lectronic mail
People would be like, what the fuck, man? Like, but who the fuck do you think you are? But that grows over time slowly. And then at some point you find out where the market is saturated and you go like, okay, this is this is where I live.
01:18:13
E-lectronic mail
This is what people, you know, but it's hard to the point that I was making.
01:18:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:18:17
E-lectronic mail
it's It's really hard. It's scary to push that further and further because anytime somebody says no, it feels like a reflection on your humanity, not not the object.
01:18:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:18:28
Jen
Oh my gosh.
01:18:29
Jen
Yes, absolutely.
01:18:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
01:18:31
Jen
It does. Yeah,
Woodworking Tools and Humor
01:18:34
Jen
it does. When I was selling things at a lower price point, they would sell quickly. um and then I'm like, could I have charged more for that?
01:18:43
Jen
But I didn't until Paul talked me into it.
01:18:44
E-lectronic mail
Hmm.
01:18:47
Jen
Like also I've only been wood burning since 2017. twenty seventeen And I'm, when did we meet?
01:18:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, that doesn't matter.
01:18:57
Jen
But it did to me, though.
01:18:57
E-lectronic mail
It doesn't matter.
01:18:59
Jen
It did to me.
01:18:59
E-lectronic mail
Sure, sure, that's fair.
01:18:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah no
01:18:59
Jen
Like, imposter syndrome is a real thing.
01:19:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No way.
01:19:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Your artistic skills could have manifested in any medium. It didn't have to be woodworking. it couldve it could it woodburning It could have been any medium. And you would have been like whoosh right at the top.
01:19:02
E-lectronic mail
Sure.
01:19:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like you have the underlying skill sets to manifest your art in almost any medium. It just turns out that wood burning was what happened.
01:19:24
Jen
And I feel like I, I mean, I do other mediums. That's what went to school for, but I feel like I took off in the wood burning world because it was ah novelty at the time.
01:19:34
E-lectronic mail
Uh-huh.
01:19:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, and there are so few people.
01:19:36
Jen
Making that little full circle. Yeah.
01:19:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There are so few people who do it, and even fewer who do it with a furniture maker, right?
01:19:39
Jen
h
01:19:44
Jen
Pretty sure we're the only ones.
01:19:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or like a – I know. I've never seen anyone. Everyone's just taking like a slice of a tree and like doing a portrait.
01:19:48
Jen
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:19:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like ah rare you know like that novelty component rises higher and higher.
01:19:52
Jen
Yeah.
01:19:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think that's helped our price point coming back.
01:19:56
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:19:58
E-lectronic mail
But that's also like, so I don't, I don't want to just consistently shit on the novelty of it as though it's like, um you know, this is a thing that we're doing.
01:19:58
Jen
have
01:20:07
E-lectronic mail
So it's doing well because nobody else is doing it because that's, that's good. But that also has a mildly negative connotation. Like it's only successful because nobody else is doing it. but that's just you guys finding your voice.
01:20:20
E-lectronic mail
Like that's, that's you finding the thing that you do that works in succeeds. And so you keep doing it and it becomes a positive feedback loop. That's a good thing. Like, you know,
01:20:32
Jen
Mm-hmm.
01:20:33
E-lectronic mail
Before the Beatles, there wasn't like digital or not digital, but like there wasn't that manipulation in studio of like soundtracks and feedback loops and all of this weird, like fucking hippie music until they made it popular. And then people went like, holy shit, like this is something new and it works. So let's do that. And then that spawns other things.
01:20:51
E-lectronic mail
So it's just it's you guys figuring out your niche and giving an audience a chance to support you in that niche.
01:21:02
Jen
Okay.
01:21:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, Eric.
01:21:03
Jen
okay
01:21:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you. Yeah, good point.
01:21:05
Jen
yeah
01:21:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we're at an hour 20 now and we've totally...
01:21:08
E-lectronic mail
Yeah, we should shift. right.
01:21:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, so let's let's let's skip the second segment. We'll put that in the after show.
01:21:13
E-lectronic mail
Okay. That's a good after show seg.
01:21:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay?
01:21:15
E-lectronic mail
All right.
01:21:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:21:16
E-lectronic mail
So, so we do need to give a shout out to our sponsor, our Lord, our Savior, William Teresa Burkle. um And he is once again, is once Garrett, that's a Garrett goddamn dude.
01:21:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not Teresa. His middle name is not Teresa.
01:21:31
E-lectronic mail
That's an Eric Curtis guarantee. He is once again, sponsoring this episode so here's what i want to know jen going ask you a few questions based on what they're selling over there and i want to know what you think these things are okay so so first and foremost uh first and foremost from april 21st until june 20th they're doing a giveaway of mag switch jen what's a mag switch
01:21:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it. I love it.
01:21:47
Jen
Just got really hot in here.
01:22:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:22:07
Jen
um ah magnetic switch.
01:22:11
E-lectronic mail
All right, if going to basic bitch about it
01:22:16
Jen
Um, is it woodworking related?
01:22:18
E-lectronic mail
Yes, it is ah the name of the store is WTB Woodworking, so we can assume that everything in there is roughly related to woodworking.
01:22:29
Jen
Um, okay.
01:22:29
E-lectronic mail
Give me a specific... how Okay, all right, let me ask a different question. How would you employ a MagSwitch product in your shop?
01:22:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, Jen, what do you do with your mag switch?
01:22:36
E-lectronic mail
What do you do with your MagSwitch?
01:22:39
Jen
um
01:22:40
E-lectronic mail
when When the cat's away, the mouse come out to play. What do you do with your MagSwitch? All
01:22:45
Jen
I use it to smooth my wood.
01:22:52
E-lectronic mail
right. Okay. Interesting.
01:22:55
Jen
ah just killed Paul.
01:22:56
E-lectronic mail
so
01:22:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know what to say to that.
01:22:58
E-lectronic mail
So MagSwitch makes a product called ah ah a Pro Vertical Featherboard. What do you think that does?
01:23:08
Jen
That sounds like a cat toy.
01:23:09
E-lectronic mail
ah yeah A pro vertical feather board?
01:23:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It sounds like a cat toy.
01:23:14
E-lectronic mail
That sounds like a BDSM toy if I'm reading that. Okay, it's a cat toy.
01:23:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:23:20
E-lectronic mail
All right.
01:23:20
Jen
It sounds like...
01:23:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:23:21
E-lectronic mail
Okay. ah All right. So um on that note, a dual roller guide. What do you think? What do you got? What do you think?
01:23:30
Jen
say Say that again.
01:23:31
E-lectronic mail
A dual roller guide?
01:23:33
Jen
oh
01:23:37
Jen
I'm going to say it's a ah set of rollers that you put your wood slab on so that you can feed it into planer.
01:23:48
E-lectronic mail
What machine? This is crucial.
01:23:50
Jen
a planer?
01:23:50
E-lectronic mail
A planer.
01:23:51
Jen
Yeah.
01:23:51
E-lectronic mail
Okay, so it's kind of like a power feed situation, or is it ah is it an under brace?
01:23:54
Jen
Yeah, let's go with that.
01:23:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, I got to be honest. She's pretty close.
01:23:58
E-lectronic mail
She's not far away.
01:24:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's very close.
01:24:00
Jen
Oh.
01:24:01
E-lectronic mail
Okay. Well, a dual roller guide in this circumstance is actually a resaw guide. So you talk about bearings on the, on the resaw, but, but there are roller guides that are stands for like extra support for extra length.
01:24:07
Jen
Okay.
01:24:15
E-lectronic mail
So I'm going to give that to you. That's a check.
01:24:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, you you got credit for that one.
01:24:17
Jen
Yes.
01:24:18
E-lectronic mail
That's a check.
01:24:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You got it.
01:24:19
E-lectronic mail
That's a check.
01:24:19
Jen
Yes.
01:24:20
E-lectronic mail
Feather board.
01:24:20
Jen
I'm proud of myself.
01:24:20
E-lectronic mail
You got a, you got a minus, but we got there.
01:24:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I would like to give her credit for the cat toy, i actually.
01:24:24
E-lectronic mail
I'll give her credit for the cat toy.
01:24:25
Jen
Can you tell me what it is?
01:24:26
E-lectronic mail
The feather board, a feather board is a, is a product that, um, keeps, uh, pressure against a piece of wood to push it against the fence. So it's, it, it looks kind of like fingers at an angle.
01:24:38
E-lectronic mail
And so the reason it's shaped, well, it also kind of looks like the strands of a feather.
01:24:38
Jen
How is that feather?
01:24:43
E-lectronic mail
So the reason it's angled that way so that it can go through in one direction, but it can't go through in the other direction.
01:24:49
Jen
Okay.
01:24:49
E-lectronic mail
Friction. Friction will push it ah against the fence stop it from doing that.
01:24:53
Jen
okay
01:24:53
E-lectronic mail
Okay. um So I've i've got, ah so both of those products are made by MagSwitch and they're doing a giveaway until June 21st. So the total value is $1,029.82. So you can go register at wtbwoodworking.com slash giveaway. Jen, I've got one more riddle for you.
01:25:10
E-lectronic mail
um I want you to complete this saying for me.
01:25:17
E-lectronic mail
Blank goes together like Festool and Franks. I'll say that one more time. Blank goes together like Festool and Franks.
01:25:26
Jen
Blank goes together?
01:25:30
Jen
fest... Hmm. What the heck is that?
01:25:34
E-lectronic mail
What goes together like Festool and hot dogs? Like what what do we got here?
01:25:38
Jen
Oh, you actually mean hot dogs? I don't even know what festool.
01:25:40
E-lectronic mail
I mean hot, yeah, I don't mean a guy named Frank.
01:25:42
Jen
I don't know. don't even know what festool is.
01:25:49
E-lectronic mail
Hit me with something, now now be mindful.
01:25:51
Jen
Let's go with...
01:25:52
E-lectronic mail
It does have to rhyme.
01:25:54
Jen
It has a rhyme.
01:25:57
Jen
I was gonna say baked beans.
01:25:59
E-lectronic mail
Baked beans?
01:26:03
Jen
I like having baked beans with hot dogs.
01:26:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
good
01:26:05
E-lectronic mail
What, who are you? What?
01:26:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like Eric, Eric, take the answer and move on, dude.
01:26:09
E-lectronic mail
A baked bean dog? What the fuck, hold on, no, garbage. What the fuck is a baked bean hot dog?
01:26:17
Jen
No, not on my hot dog.
01:26:19
E-lectronic mail
Okay, so it's not like a chili dog situation.
01:26:19
Jen
Like, next to. oh no.
01:26:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Jesus, Eric.
01:26:21
Jen
Mm-mm.
01:26:22
E-lectronic mail
Okay, all right. Well, I still don't love it, but I'm going to let it slide.
01:26:26
Jen
What is it?
01:26:28
E-lectronic mail
There's no answer.
01:26:28
Jen
What is a festool?
01:26:29
E-lectronic mail
work It's a creative opportunity.
01:26:29
Jen
But what's a festool? What's a festool?
01:26:31
E-lectronic mail
of what What's a FezTool?
01:26:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I love it, Jen.
01:26:33
E-lectronic mail
What's a FezTool?
01:26:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, I love it. I love it.
01:26:35
E-lectronic mail
ah Well, you see, ah Bill does FezTool Fridays, which is every Friday from 11.45 to 12.45. You can come get a hot dog and watch a live FezTool demonstration, which is a tool brand.
01:26:50
Jen
Okay.
01:26:52
E-lectronic mail
You seem dis dissatisfied with that answer. Oh,
01:26:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric she's gonna light you up in the after show I guarantee it
01:26:55
Jen
Yeah. ah
01:26:58
E-lectronic mail
Christ. All right. So in the after show, me, Paul and Phineas Tuneman are going to talk about needless tools ah and what we think are the absolute non-essentials in the shop and why the fuck are these even made?
Post-show Content and Listener Engagement
01:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we should also talk about Jen's sequel book that she's writing to Fire and Fins and the the journey of Phineas Tooneman
01:27:15
Jen
Nope. Nope. Nope. nope
01:27:21
E-lectronic mail
Have we have we have we released the first book yet?
01:27:21
Jen
Nope, all of that is wrong.
01:27:25
E-lectronic mail
What are we doing here?
01:27:26
Jen
No.
01:27:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in the query trenches as Jen DiRenzo dot writer likes to say.
01:27:32
Jen
Oh, cheese and rice.
01:27:32
E-lectronic mail
Is this like is this like a Zanga site? Like what's the situation out here?
01:27:36
Jen
I don't even wanna know what that is. um
01:27:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the sequel is going to be called Gonads and Goldfish.
01:27:42
Jen
Nope, dope, nope. Oh my gosh.
01:27:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, on that note, let's wrap this shit up.
01:27:50
Jen
o
01:27:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thanks, Jen.
01:27:52
E-lectronic mail
Hey, goodev good ep, good ep, Jen.
01:27:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen.
01:27:54
E-lectronic mail
Thank you.
01:27:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you. that this like
01:27:57
Jen
ah
01:27:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Even though we covered pricing in a different way before, I think this is a totally fresh conversation about whether you should design to a price point or not. And ah Eric, so many good points today.
01:28:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jen, thank you for for bringing this up today.
01:28:10
Jen
Yeah. Thanks for having me.
01:28:14
E-lectronic mail
Thanks, fra um friend.
01:28:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, we'll see you the after show. If you want the video feed and the after show, just subscribe to our Patreon.
01:28:17
E-lectronic mail
right, friendos.
01:28:17
Jen
ah
01:28:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know where that is.
01:28:24
E-lectronic mail
Okay, bye.
01:28:24
Jen
Bye.
01:28:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye everyone.