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00:00:01
Episode 33 - How Creative Pursuits Can QUIET the Noise of STRESS (w/ Dr. Sherry Pagoto)
37 Plays7 minutes ago
Have you ever felt a sense of calm after working in the garden, fixing something in the shop, or cooking in the kitchen? Why does working with our hands have such a powerful effect on our mood? Can working with our hands help with the heaviness we feel, the anxiety, or even depression?
In today’s episode, we’re diving into the deep connection between WORKING WITH OUR HANDS and MENTAL WELL-BEING with Clinical Psychologist and Professor Dr. Sherry Pagoto. Sherry challenges us to assess our LIFE BALANCE through the ROOTS Framework (Relationships, Occupation, Ongoing Growth, Tasks, and Self-Care) and explains how these life areas being in BALANCE is key to mental health, and how WORKING WITH OUR HANDS can help rebalance us when life goes sideways. This important episode will explore the science behind this connection and share inspiring stories of how creativity and craftsmanship can be a form of therapy.
A companion article to today's conversation is published in Psychology Today: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shrink/202504/how-creative-pursuits-can-quiet-the-noise-of-stress
For more information from Dr. Sherry Pagoto, you can find her on LinkedIn, BlueSky @drsherrypagoto.bsky.social and on Instagram @drsherrypagoto.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
00:00:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right.
Introduction and Hosts' Background
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, here we are again, your favorite band of misfit toys. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night. And across from me, across the screen, across the US, not really, same time zone, is Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator.
00:00:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We're like two cities apart, buddy. Okay.
00:00:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All
Main Question: Crafting and Mental Wellbeing
00:00:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right. So before I introduce our guest, who's already tee-heeing next to me, I want to start with our question.
00:00:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I think you'll understand why we have this special guest on today's show. So in classic Mary fashion, we we begin with the definition upfront, or in this case, a question. So Eric and I have long had the feeling that working with your hands, whether it be like woodworking or ceramics, some sort of creative endeavor, hobby, craft, art, what have you, we've always had this feeling in our gut that that is good for our mental well-being.
00:01:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It seems to quell anxiety. It seems to quell the noise. It lightens the mood when the world feels like it's real heavy. ah And it just seems to sort of be an almost meditative escape, right? Right.
00:01:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And think it could even go as far as to say, you know if you have depression, could working with your hands help with that? So that is our question for today. So does working with your hands in some form of craft or hobby, can that help with mental wellbeing, anxiety, and maybe even depression?
00:02:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And to help us answer that question, we have a very
Guest Introduction: Dr. Sherry Pagato
00:02:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
special guest. So first of all, the woman sitting next to me is a licensed clinical psychologist and professor at the University of Connecticut who has an expertise in the treatment of depression.
00:02:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what why How much more qualified could could she be to help us with this question?
00:02:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, she gets more qualified.
00:02:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In fact, she is a very ongoing, very um active laboratory and has had for the last 20 years. A lab of eight people right now. She's the author of over 265 scientific articles and publications.
00:02:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Former past president of the Association, the Society of Behavioral Medicine, and somehow still finds time to have a private practice through all that. Dr. Sherry Pagato. Sherry, thank you for joining us today.
00:02:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you, Paul.
00:02:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That is one hell of a credential list.
00:03:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
are you serious right now? That would, that could...
00:03:02
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Honestly. Yeah, no, I should have studied more before this conversation. Now I'm realizing that.
00:03:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fantastic. Well, I think, you know, to have someone with this depth of expertise on our show is amazing. And, you know, I think woodworking is bullshit. We always try to bring the most qualified people that we have in our circles to try and address these questions.
00:03:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it just so happened that Sherry's in my circle of friends. And you probably say oh, how's that? And well, Sherry's my ex-wife. Yeah. We used to be married.
00:03:34
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i i I am so excited to maybe maybe pop maybe the post show, the the after show is just hearing the fucking dirt on Paul for 20 minutes.
00:03:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's no accounting for taste, you know? Love is blind.
00:03:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I prefer wife than ex-wife. I'm the OG. So like first wives do the heavy lifting, all right? All right? My wife likes to say- Shout out to the first wives.
00:03:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You really broke him in, man. Yeah.
00:03:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
My wife likes to say we like the same things about her and Jerry. We have a lot in common. All right.
00:04:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh my God.
00:04:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's scary. So now that we know you're going to shit on me the rest of the episode, which is fine.
00:04:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Goddamn right.
00:04:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let's let's go. dm me for questions about Paul. I'm an open book.
00:04:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Sherry, you and I are going to have a spinoff podcast. Who the hell is calling me right now? Get out of here.
00:04:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So, ah so i yeah, I think it um I'm very excited, very lucky to have Sherry in my extended network. This kind of expertise is is not easy to come by. And she was more than happy to be on the show to talk about this question. So...
Behavioral Theory of Depression and Crafting Benefits
00:04:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sherry, as I started asking at the beginning of the show with Eric, I said, you know, Eric and I have always this feeling in our gut that working with your hands is therapeutic in some way. But what we don't know is like, is there any factual basis to that? Is there any science to back that idea up Yeah, actually, there's a lot of science to back that up.
00:04:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
In fact, um there's an entire behavior therapy that's evidence-based that's sort of based on this idea. So let me tell you about kind of the theory, behavioral theory of depression. So in behavioral theory of depression, um we think about depression as when a person is sort of getting disconnected from activities that bring them a sense of mastery and or pleasure.
00:05:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so when you don't have enough of those experiences in your life, we tend to really start to feel bad feelings like depression, anxiety, and it can reach clinical levels. um so what we work on in therapy is helping people kind of reconnect with activities that give them those experiences of mastery and pleasure.
00:05:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's... um great about woodworking as an example of a craft and other crafts too is that it's an activity that actually does both of those things so it's like a nice double hit of gives you that sense of mastery as well as pleasure when you guys talk about it you can definitely see that it's like really striking that balance then what creative endeavors have a third thing in their favor in terms of managing our moods is that because of the the focus that you have when you're doing something a creative, it really thwarts mind noise, you know, like rumination where you're kind of in a loop, you're upset about something and you you get stuck in that loop and it's just really noisy in your head.
00:06:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Crafting is an experience that can um be meditative in that way because it forces you into the present moment. And that's like what mindfulness meditation is about. It's like being in the moment.
00:06:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It can act.
00:06:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, that's an interesting comparison.
00:06:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, like so but with an activity, it it's is kind of assists in that focus. Some people, and I'm one of them, like I have a hard time with just like the quiet meditation.
00:06:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm-hmm.
00:06:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's something i I probably really need to work on. But like with a creative activity, i have an easier time doing it. But I wanted to ask each of you a question.
00:06:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, boy.
00:06:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I wonder if we could just time out into a little like group therapy situation.
00:07:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, we're diving in.
00:07:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I need more alcohol for that.
00:07:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Uh-oh. Uh-oh. This is a safe space. This is a safe space.
00:07:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
This is a public space, friend. I don't know.
00:07:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's a public safe space. um So, yeah, there is that. so i So, yeah, I wanted to, for each of you, Paul, we'll start with you. I'll put you on the spot. Because Eric seems nice. We
00:07:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
She doesn't know me that well yet.
00:07:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah we just met, you know.
00:07:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:07:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You see how fast she came out with that. Paul, you go first. So no, like, really no, but being serious, well um I wonder if you could sort of reflect on a time when you were in that headspace, when something was going on in your life, whether it was like grief or you're upset about something and you can't shut it off.
00:07:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think we've all been there.
00:07:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
00:07:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And what your experience was as you moved from being stuck in that state to going into your shop and picking up your tools and and working on something. yeah ah boy.
00:08:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. um Yes. So that I didn't take up woodworking to accomplish that, but as I have grown to love woodworking over the past 20 years, it has played that role many times. Most recently in the interest of full vulnerability and disclosure.
00:08:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One of the things I struggle with is when someone's mad at me or if someone's upset with me, I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time living with that. Okay.
00:08:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I like to live my life in a way where no one's upset with me and I feel I'm on the up and up and I'm on the light. Everything's light and easy breezy. Right. But if there's people upset with you, it's like, there's a, like a fly in the ointment. Like there's like a thorn in your side. And I, I start to ruminate on it.
00:08:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A lot. A lot. And I don't mean ruminate like once, twice a day. I mean 20, 50 times a day, 70 times a day, maybe. Occasionally, when it gets really bad, it's like on replay in my mind, i can't quiet the fucking noise.
00:09:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I notice sometimes that when when I just need a break, I just need a break. Oh my God, I got to stop thinking about this. i don't know why I can't let this go. Like, what is wrong? Like, ah it's okay to be, like I'm like, it's okay if people are upset with you. It's okay if people don't like you. Like, that is okay. But it's for I'm still learning that lesson. So I go into the shop though.
00:09:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what I notice is What Sherry basically said is this, a quiet it quiets everything down outside this little tunnel. And the tunnel is your unilateral focus on what you're doing right then and right there. And the shop and woodworking, I think is particularly good at this because there's a danger component.
00:09:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you're not focused, you will hurt yourself. this These saws are no joke, right? And the chisels are sharp as fuck. And if you aren't locked in, you can definitely get hurt or you can set yourself back many hours of work by making a stupid mistake. So I find it narrows that focus down. And next thing I know, like I don't even notice it happening.
00:10:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Just next thing I know, it's like an hour later and I hadn't had any thoughts about it. And it felt like a breath of fresh air. You're like, oh, thank God.
00:10:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:10:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was refreshing. Well, if you think about that, so many people struggle with rumination. and if you said, hey, I've got a thing that will shut that off for an hour.
00:10:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If that was a pill, like people would line up for it. That's true. It's so and like intrusive.
00:10:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i mean, is that not why people choose drugs in a lot of way?
00:10:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:10:39
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Because they don't have an
00:10:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
Balancing Life: ROOT Acronym and Relationships
00:10:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
outlet, right?
00:10:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And that is that outlet.
00:10:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Exactly.
00:10:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:10:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I guess there are some pills that will shut that up.
00:10:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Sure, sure.
00:10:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We don't want to do that.
00:10:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i think there are a lot of those pills, actually.
00:10:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah um
00:10:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um
00:10:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But that... i haveve i I feel like that's very relatable. And it's also... um it's kind of exciting that it does have like that type of effect. I'm curious from you, like when you step out of the shop, is there any sort of like residual or do you, are you finding like the thoughts are storming right back in? it storms right back in. Does it? Yeah.
00:11:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. It doesn't seem, it seems to only be while I'm in the act.
00:11:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Interesting.
00:11:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But at least it's giving you the, I can press the pause button. Yeah. It gave you like, like, it's almost like you, you took a relaxation break, you know, it's like.
00:11:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:11:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One thing to think about, one thing to notice is listen to the ruminations before, And then when they re re merge, like I'd listen to them yeah again, and they're less frequent.
00:11:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And also is the tenor of the rumination. You're more tired after. Okay. So you're like, it's a little quieter. The volume's turned down and it's a little less frequent. That's a great point. So you would almost think of your rumination as like this little man inside of you.
00:11:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And like when he's really upset, he's like going, going, go going, going. I love that And then when you're doing your activity, he's asleep. That's a great. And then you go you release from the activity, starting to wake up.
00:11:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but like But think about next time, try to notice like if like the intensity of the rumination is any different afterwards. It's less. It's less. attenuated. Definitely. Okay. Yeah.
00:12:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Paul, I wonder if the the intensity of the the ruminations is such a good word. um If that you said that comes back pretty quick, but did that come back pretty quick?
00:12:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
when you started woodworking, when you first found woodworking as a vehicle to kind of quiet those voices and that noise loop, did it did it have a longer lasting impact? And then now, as you've gotten better and better, you know what're we're constantly chasing the dragon.
00:12:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I don't know, eric and Eric. Yeah, I don't remember. It was so long ago. But Eric, can you tell Sherry, I think this is an interesting phrase you used.
00:12:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
oh
00:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can you tell Sherry what chasing the dragon means to you?
00:12:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, do you not know that phrase? So chasing the dragon is...
00:12:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i' yeah think I have a sense of what you what you might say.
00:12:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, it's it's it's the, the and you could call it maybe a phenomenon of like, you you use a drug and then it gets you that high. And then you constantly are trying to get back to that initial experience.
00:13:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're building the tolerance to the opiate.
00:13:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And you can't, yeah, but the tolerance, but also the like it takes more and more to get high in and of itself.
00:13:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But also the initial experience is never replicated because it's a new experience and you can never have the same new experience twice. Yeah. So similarly, like in woodworking, the first time you cut a dovetail, I mean, you're riding on cloud nine for three days and then you try to do that again and cut harder and harder dovetails, but you don't ever get quite back to that first time you did the thing.
00:13:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's interesting. Yeah.
00:13:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and Well, it's interesting that you're saying that and you're using and like addiction as an analogy because they've done these brain imaging studies where they find that when people are engaging in a craft, it's actually stimulating reward centers of your brain.
00:13:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
00:13:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i love it. Which is exactly what addictive drugs do.
00:13:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're just mice on a wheel, baby.
00:13:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, youre You kind of are. So you're cheat you are chasing the dragon. Yes. But it's a healthy addiction because this isn't something like where addiction turns bad is when it starts to destroy your life.
00:14:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like if woodworking is destroying your life, then maybe it doesn't.
00:14:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Sure, sure.
00:14:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Occasionally. but Yeah.
00:14:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, man.
00:14:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like That's how we know is like it's destroying your life.
00:14:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i that's ah That's a very fair distinction, though, because I think we, i including myself, we often like to throw around terms like workaholism.
00:14:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so...
00:14:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
The guy's a workaholic. you know This person, that's all they ever do is work. But... If that's how they've kind of built their life and they found a healthy balance and part of the reason they are, quote unquote, a workaholic is because that helps them to quell the noise in their head, then is it an addiction in the sense of that it's not ruining their lives, you know, or at least not at this point, it's not ruining their lives.
00:14:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's interesting that you saw on a segue a little bit, although not letting you off the hook here. I was going to say, Eric, you didn't answer the question, bitch. No, but he brought something up I want to build off of about the workaholism and the balance and that sort of thing.
00:15:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So let me just delve a little bit into the behavior And then we're going back to his- I will never forget the story.
00:15:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
No, no, no. I like that she's already dismantling your your timeline and your your your layout.
00:15:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no. No. word Yeah, sorry. it's There's a segue, you've got to use it. Anyways, um okay, so behavior therapy. um The way that we work with people, because you know I talked about our conceptualization of depression is this idea of like we've become disconnected from things that give us a sense of mastery and pleasure.
00:15:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the way that we we do this is we ask people to think about the different areas of your life. And this is where the balance part is going to come in. And so I use an um an acronym ROOT. So we have basically five areas of our life.
00:15:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If we were to chop up like our whole life, it comes down to these five things. We've got relationships. So the people in our lives, our partners, children, family, friends, we've got our occupation,
00:15:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um This is our job or school, if you go to school. um We've got our ongoing growth activities. And this is like crafting, hobbies, the things we do in our spare time.
00:16:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we have tasks. So this is like, these aren't usually super fun, but like, you know, taking care of your house, your car, your stuff, paying your bills. And then finally we have self-care. So we got to get ourselves to the doctor, exercise, eat well, those activities.
00:16:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if you were to kind of think of your life, those are sort of like the pieces of the pie. And so what we do with is I have the patient think about in these areas of their life, what are activities of mastery and pleasure that they could be engaging in? We kind of like set goals around that with the idea that it's important to get that balance and not get too lopsided because depression can also happen um when you have that lopsidedness where you're pouring all of your energy into one area. So you brought up workaholism as an example.
00:16:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We know that. So if having maxing out um mastery and pleasure in one area could compensate for balance, we would see workaholism actually associated with wellness and happiness, but it's actually the other way.
00:17:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that workaholics have high rates of depression, anxiety, and actual physical health issues. And so, um, so, so thinking about those five areas, you want to definitely make sure that you're balanced.
00:17:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I'll share one more little study and then I'm putting it.
00:17:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Well, can I ask a question about that balance very quickly?
00:17:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Reflect. Yes. Reflect on it.
00:17:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So i think part of the reason why people, many people have said that I maybe flirt with workaholism, and I think that might be a fair critique, is ah that...
00:17:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:17:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I spend so much time in the shop, so focused on woodworking, the business, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the way that you just broke it down is like you have the tasks, you have the the occupation, and you have the self-care.
00:17:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And woodworking for me kind of covers all three of those brands because I have the business aspect of it, right?
00:18:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, so it's...
00:18:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's the tasks.
00:18:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:18:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:18:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's the emails.
00:18:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's the accounting. That's the bullshit. Like whatever. That happens. Yeah. Then you have the actual occupation part of it, like content creation, teaching, you you know growing the business. And then you have the self-care part, which is the fact that I do this for a living because I fucking love it.
00:18:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And relationships. So Eric, can I say something?
00:18:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So it's...
00:18:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Please, please, please.
00:18:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I just want to put a pin. Okay. So the three tasks that you described, I'm just going to push back a little bit.
00:18:33
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay, please do.
00:18:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Yes.
00:18:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You're going to take too much joy in this, brother.
00:18:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So the three tasks that you described were actually one. They're all in one one quadrant, so like one part of the pie. And those would all be ah occupation.
00:18:47
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay.
00:18:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because self-care isn't self-care. It's like, did you get your exercise today? Did you cook a healthy meal?
00:18:56
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. All right. Fair.
00:18:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you you know comb your hair?
00:18:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Fair.
00:19:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Think about your hygiene? You know, things like that. what yeah That could be the thing.
00:19:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay.
00:19:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, and then what was the other one? And then task would be more like broader than what you were saying.
00:19:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Tasks.
00:19:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it wouldn't be work task. It would be more like life tasks.
00:19:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
and Okay, okay, cleaning the house, doing the dishes, et cetera, et cetera.
00:19:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so yeah. So you're just like, so yeah, like, so the balance across, because if you think about it, like, let's say all we did was work and then we had no relationships.
00:19:18
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay, all right, that's fair. That's fair pushback.
00:19:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Our house was mess. and We have no self care. So we, um um, sure.
00:19:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:19:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I actually have to give Eric a point back okay because his relationships are very, very related to woodworking in many times. Right.
00:19:39
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
they Yes, that's ah that's a fair point.
00:19:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah ah Quite a few of them.
00:19:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So like ah my shopmate is one of my best friends on the planet.
00:19:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:19:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
you know And so like there are times where where we we're like working and then all of a sudden we're just like, fuck work.
00:19:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's great.
00:19:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
like Let's just drink a beer and like shoot the shit. you know And so it just ends up being a hangout sesh. And friends come over and we build shit together.
00:20:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's awesome.
00:20:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So that is definitely part of it.
00:20:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So yeah, you do get to check a box.
00:20:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
but But to to your point, um yeah, there are... I, I always obsessively clean the house on Sundays. Like I take Sundays off of work and I'm just like, this is like, you know, life tasks day because if I don't do that, I feel like the rest of my life is, is out of balance and I can't do it.
00:20:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right? Right, see?
00:20:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So similarly, like self-care, I try to go for a walk around the neighborhood every day, go to the gym four times a week.
00:20:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nice.
00:20:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So those kinds of things that are outside of that, but yeah, I guess my hyper fixation on ah both the hobby as or the craft as a hobby and as a profession.
00:20:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i
00:20:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:20:42
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I always think of things through that lens first. So i'm like tasks. Yeah. Emails. That's the thing.
00:20:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Eric, does that automatically show that you're out of balance? No, I mean, i think he made a case for his balance, and you know, by his his exercise and everything else. So that was a great recovery. he does exercise regularly.
00:21:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
can't take my lap.
00:21:02
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I cut off your other point that you were going to make, though.
00:21:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um Oh, no, no. So where was I going to go with that? Oh, so to to the balance. so So there's a there's a study, Harvard Men's Study. I don't know if you've heard of this. or they um Did you guys talk about this before?
00:21:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh we did Where they followed these men from like when they were...
00:21:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
He's shaking his head like we have. I totally remember. Oh, the regrets before dying kind of thing.
00:21:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, no, but but no, no, no. It's the the longest running study ever.
00:21:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:21:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Remember?
00:21:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay, okay, yeah.
00:21:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Sherry, tell them again. They studied men across the lifespan. So it's an amazing study because they literally studied the same cohort of people for like 70 or 80 years.
00:21:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think it's continuing to go. And now they've included women in the study. um But it started with men and in their 20s and then followed them throughout. and ask them all kinds of questions about everything in their life, have like genetic data. We know a lot about these men.
00:21:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so one of the big purposes of the study is to kind of like what predicts healthy longevity. so not just longevity, but healthy longevity. um And that includes like mentally and physical physically. So like, um like no chronic less chronic disease, less depression, like so feeling better um physically mentally. Anyways, so the strongest predictor, I'm going to tell you first what it wasn't.
00:22:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The strongest predictor was not genes. um It was not how much you make. Um, it was not, what are some of the other? It was not. It was not your job satisfaction. No.
00:22:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was not how much money you made. No. It was not your health state. Basically, it was the quality of your relationships.
00:22:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
God, now you just sound like fucking Paul.
00:22:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes. It's not like sound like fucking Paul, because what it sounds like is the fucking truth, Eric.
00:22:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
He's going to the science, the science.
00:22:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she spits the truth just like I do. So, well, here's here's the thing of like why. So this is an argument. I'm going to make a case that if there's any where it's hard to be a perfect, perfectly balanced, that's probably not realistic.
00:23:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:23:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
00:23:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like what the men's health, the Harvard Men's Health Study, like really, I think such strong makes a strong case for is that like the one piece of that pie chart that you cannot compromise is that.
00:23:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like the other ones, maybe you can scooch here and there, but like that one seems to be the money one.
00:23:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:23:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Relationships. Right.
00:23:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, um, so in your jockeying of your pie chart, that's the one that it's going to cost you more, most mentally and physically if you compromise it.
00:23:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yeah
00:23:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, so it's something like something to chew on.
00:23:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That is. all right. So speaking of segues, that's a good segue into ah diving back into the question that we asked before.
00:23:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We gotta put him... Yes. Yes. Yeah, Eric.
00:23:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So the I'll set this up right in.
00:23:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:23:58
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
in I think the question was largely based around the use of craft as a steadying force in in a moment of turbulence. right so
00:24:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:24:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um I didn't come into really getting into the craft until I was in my late 20s or you know early 20s kind of thing. but My younger life, I'll set it up by simply saying like my younger life was ah there was a lot of turbulence and instability coming up. So I think that kind of bred itself into me as a as a young adult seeking stability and seeking relational attachments, to your point.
00:24:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So I got married fairly young. And by the time I was 29, we got divorced. And that that hit hard, right? Like it was it was a moment of like, oh shit, everything's happening all over again. And it all kind of, I was spiraling fully.
00:24:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like I tell people, like I basically didn't sleep for a year.
00:24:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh no.
00:24:56
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like I kind of went through like withdrawal symptoms, right?
00:24:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh no.
00:24:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um And what ended up happening by this point, I was already... kind of a few years into my career as a woodworker, I was teaching woodshop at this point.
00:25:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I would constantly just wake up in the middle of the night and like you in that way of like, you know, you're not getting back to sleep, you know, like there's just no there's no hope of it.
00:25:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:25:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So I just get up and go to work. Like I would just get up, go to the school. this the I was lucky enough to be able to use the school shop at at whatever hours I wanted. So You know, i'd sometimes I'd be there at like 4 a.m. m and I would just start working on a thing and there was no there was no direction.
00:25:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
and There was no like I didn't take commissions at that point because I didn't um want that that pressure on it. It was just purely an outlet of like something is wrong.
00:25:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And this at least is an expressive thing that I can kind of get that out, you know, just get it, whatever the thing is. And sometimes the things were good. Sometimes the things were bad. That didn't matter. What mattered to me is the the feeling of progress toward.
00:26:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I don't I don't even know that there was an end goal, right, but it was just like the progress being made. It was OK. I did this last time. and I'm going to attempt to do this and I'm going to see if I can do it.
00:26:21
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And the asking the question and, um, finding out if it was possible quelled all of the chaos that was happening. And, uh, so, so that was kind of, that was honestly the foundation of how I work now, even still of like the thing that's most important to me in my creative practice is the risk taking because it's, it's,
00:26:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
00:26:45
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
intellectually engaging, but it's also spiritually engaging in a way of like, you know, like I know, I know how to cut a goddamn dovetail. I know how to make a fucking cabinet. That's not, I can make a table. That's not interesting. What's interesting to me is like,
00:26:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I have a human experience and you have a human experience, Paul, you have a human experience. And can I make an object that is both personal to my human experience, but also in its specificity universal enough that other people can relate to that?
00:27:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and
00:27:17
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And how do you do that without using any words?
00:27:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like, how do you do that without giving people any context to what you're trying to do and just kind of let them see in it what they see?
00:27:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:27:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So that's where I came from.
00:27:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. So, like, woodworking is, like, a part of your soul, the way you described it like... Mm-hmm.
00:27:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I think 100%. I've said kind of hyperbolically in the past on this podcast that I think woodworking saved my life. And in I think that's part of it. like i I have a long familial history of of drug use, drug abuse, drug overdu overdose.
00:27:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um And I think there is a there's a real chance or at least an alternate reality somewhere or on, on the multiverse timeline where not having an outlet such as woodworking, um, like I, I could have gone down one of those other paths very easily, you know?
00:28:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
00:28:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So it's, it's ingrained in me. Um, I think it's a part of who I am. And even sometimes when it gets out of balance, it's, um, it's It's a thing I'm deeply grateful for because the... I don't know. there were Maybe this is... I feel like maybe somebody listening to the podcast right now can relate to this moment of like similarly in the kind of the peak chaos post-divorce where I was like...
00:28:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
you know, you wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, what fucking everything can just disappear in a moment like that.
00:28:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right right
Woodworking's Personal Impact on Eric
00:28:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right. Like it's every nothing, nothing is solid. Nothing is promised. And, I remember multiple times waking up and like looking around the room and it was like, Oh, okay. I like, I made those shelves.
00:28:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right yeah
00:29:01
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I made that bookcase. Like they're, they're physically, these things can't be taken away. You know, they, they exist in reality and there's a, even though they're not permanent, there is a,
00:29:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow hmm
00:29:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
quote unquote human scale permanence to them that like you can't deny they exist they're there
00:29:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's almost like some foundation or some stability when you had none otherwise.
00:29:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:29:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
these These things that are so ethereal, these ah relationships that are ethereal or, um you know, kind of the the financial turbulence of of my youth, that that can all go away like that.
00:29:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:29:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:29:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But, you know, this as barring a house fire, like this desk, those cabinets, that table, like it will it will be there and it exists.
00:29:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah yeah yeah
00:29:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And that is kind of, it's it's almost... proof of the the journey that I've been on to this point.
00:29:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Nice. That's so, I love that story so much. Like there, I mean, it sounds like what you make grounds you. Like even actually if your house burnt down, like you'd recreate your grounding again.
00:30:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
00:30:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and that's just like, that's so, that's a, an amazing way to put it. Do you feel that way as well? Well, I mean, Eric, you never know what's going to happen. You and the next thing you know, you might be sitting next to your ex-wife recording a podcast with her.
00:30:17
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
True. True. True.
00:30:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know how, are are you are you on bad terms? So Eric, why don't you pull up a chair and like tell Sherry.
00:30:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:30:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Get around the line.
00:30:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um so. No, I definitely think, and actually i want to say to the listeners, like I like to pause for a moment of reflection. Like the listeners are listening to all these ideas, right? The whole time, like Sherry gave a huge amount of background about depression and these ideas about these five segments of your life.
00:30:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Let's get her on the horn and talk through it.
00:30:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I would just pause for a moment and say to the listeners and Eric, you already sort of posited this question, you know, does your craft and we have more than woodworkers who listen to this.
00:31:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does it help you mentally cope with the noise of the world, personal loss? Does it help you find a sense of control and mastery and pleasure, as Sherry was saying?
00:31:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Does it help you feel like there's some foundation there when the, you know, maybe unforeseen consequences have yanked it out from you? And I love what Sherry said about visualizing your life in the form of a pie chart. Have you ever thought about your life as a pie chart?
00:31:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And those, i want to talk one more time what they are. Relationships, roots, right? R-O-O-T-S. Relationships, occupation, ongoing growth, tasks, and self-care.
00:31:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right? So think about those five areas and see, like, give yourself a report card. you know How are you on that balance? Yeah. I like that idea.
00:31:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. And and then...
00:31:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So can can I ask a question? the We're saying ah pie chart, and i think it's I don't want to shit on that analogy. It's a great visual.
00:32:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um But in my mind, that keeps them as separate categories that aren't interlaced. You know, there's no fluidity between the two.
00:32:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:32:18
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And so um i guess the reason I'm bringing that up, Paul, as you were talking about it again, i was thinking about like, okay, you know, there were a few years, there were a number of years where I was unable, I was just not ready to be um emotionally vulnerable ah with another partner, right?
00:32:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
00:32:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
00:32:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And so
00:32:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:32:39
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
What I ended up doing to the point of the importance of relationships, I always visualized it as like I had one relationship that ran super, super deep in order to avoid having too many relationships because they were dangerous.
00:32:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And so post-divorce, I made the... the like the decision really to ah spread those those roots out, like a taproot of a tree, right?
00:33:01
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Instead, I wanted to to broaden them out and have many um kind of many lighter relationships.
00:33:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see light lighter hmm
00:33:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But then of course, over time, and you invest in those relationships, all of those relationships become much deeper.
00:33:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm
00:33:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And, um, I think that equally as much as kind of developing my skill and my craft and in heading toward mastery and gaining momentum in my career and kind of finding my own grounding as a human being is what allowed me to be comfortable getting into a new relationship.
00:33:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
My partner now is a wonderful human being. She is great. like she puts up with me better. Like there's nobody else on the goddamn planet who could, who could deal with my chaotic ass.
00:33:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. yeah
00:33:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um And she's, she really is a wonderful partner. I know that if I met her five years ago, I would not be in the place to accept that relationship.
00:33:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
interesting
00:33:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I think a big part of that is I had to find my own place. And I found that in the craft and that allowed me to kind of loosen the the grip on, uh,
00:34:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
hoarding like a relationship for lack of a better word. This is just turning into a therapy session for me, by the way.
00:34:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh i have yeah
00:34:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So but but I'm i'm wondering how those things affect one another.
00:34:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can I ask a question? to to
00:34:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
00:34:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like To keep the therapy session going. um So as you were talking, was I wanted to hear a little bit more. i wondered if you can unwrap. um i love this, the way.
00:34:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the crafting experience, like the woodworking sort of like unlocked emotional vulnerability because it's obviously it's an independent activity and there's, um so like what's, what was going on in your head was like evolving to where you felt like letting your walls down and creating something deeper.
00:34:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, man, that's a good question.
00:34:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha
00:34:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It's like you're a therapist or something.
00:34:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's as if she has a PhD in this.
00:34:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um It's as if. So i I think I would say maybe two things. First and foremost, I Prior to kind of finding my grounding and identity in being a craftsperson, being an artist, being somebody who expresses their human experience through making objects.
00:35:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Um, Maybe my emotional well-being was over reliance on those relationships because I didn't have another vehicle to express, you know, what it was like to be the human that I am.
00:35:32
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So finding a vehicle to do that, that was separate from relationships, I think, put less pressure on the relationships themselves. Yeah.
00:35:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So is it that like it sort of built you up in a certain way to where you felt like you were ready and available to like be open up? Yeah, almost more complete.
00:35:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:35:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's like kind of building a strength.
00:35:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yes. Yes. It was a more complete individual. Yes.
00:35:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, like I know who I am.
00:35:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um
00:35:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And when you're more complete with yourself, you're willing to give that to someone else or share that with someone else.
00:35:56
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right. Right.
00:35:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You're willing to give it to somebody else.
00:36:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:01
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You're also willing to accept their humanity more completely. You know, like I knowing.
00:36:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:36:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I am more comfortable now having flaws as a human being, because obviously all human beings, um I think in part because the, the work that I've put in towards mastery of this craft, like,
00:36:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That tells me that I still have value, even when i am a fuck up because everybody's a fuck up sometimes. You know, like there's the that that again, coming back to like the physical object that can't be taken away. This thing exists.
00:36:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So you go like, OK, like I fucked up that situation, but that doesn't mean that I'm a fuck up. You know, because there's some grounding and understanding that you have
00:36:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, yeah. Yeah.
00:36:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um not value, but but the ability to learn and grow and become a different human being than you are in this moment. But I think and I want to just say that I think the other reason that developing craft was an important part of kind of that that healing journey, for lack of a better word.
00:36:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that
00:37:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
is, um you know, I am a child of the 80s. but we didn't We didn't have, um men didn't have emotions back then or we didn't talk about them, you know?
00:37:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um Hmm.
00:37:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I grew up, I grew up in the trades um and it's a very machismo culture. And from a very young age, I was uncomfortable with that. I didn't like it. And I think that's a big part of the reason I didn't get into that field. But having woodworking,
00:37:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
became an artistic expression, which it was kind of the first place that I found the ability to express thoughts and emotions, um, which later over years in practice and just, you know, rote memorization, um I think allowed me to express those emotions in words better than I was able to when I was younger.
00:38:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, this is fucking deep tonight.
00:38:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
This is just fucking therapy now, guys.
00:38:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is the cool, this is such a fascinating, like psychological journey. And I can totally see why you're struggling with a pie chart because like you sound more like a tapestry and ah big thread.
00:38:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Goddamn. There it is.
00:38:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A big thread like throughout it is woodworking. And it might seem like a strange thing to say, but like as you articulated it, it makes perfect sense. It's like woven into your psyche. It's woven into your self-worth and how you view yourself.
00:38:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like It was your vehicle for like building yourself and the things around you, which like opened you up for those other areas of your life. They were dependent on it.
00:38:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, so yes, I agree a hundred percent to the point where, um, ah like Paul, you were talking about safety and having to be hyper-focused when you're in the shop earlier.
00:39:01
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And i I have, I have thought more than once about like what happens if I cut a finger off, if I cut a hand off, whatever the thing is.
00:39:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Oh man.
00:39:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And, there's never been any doubt. Like if I got a handoff, I can't work with wood anymore. There's never has that thought even crossed my mind. I'd be like, I'll figure out how to fucking do what I do with nine, you know, with one finger.
00:39:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:39:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It doesn't matter.
00:39:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:39:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I think it is, it is that deeply woven.
00:39:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is more than a job for you. Yeah.
00:39:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:39:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:39:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:39:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I have a question about um sort of, as we were talking earlier, that relief that comes with doing a creative endeavor, that sort of, how do you say?
00:39:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's almost like a period of relaxation. Like it gives your mind a chance to breathe, right? And I was thinking about that with respect to doing woodworking. And I thought there's like two kind of different angles to that question.
00:39:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, is that true? So for example, Eric, If we're doing something very repetitive, a hundred times in a row, it it is mindless.
00:39:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:40:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It becomes mindless. You just do the thing. You're working with your hands. You're just doing. And it takes very little concentrated thought. And that's when your mind can breathe.
00:40:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Your mind's clear. It's open. You can work on some other things in the background, I find. I like... kind of like cogitate over things, you know, in the background while you're working with your hands. Maybe you're on the phone. Maybe you're thinking about something. Maybe you're not thinking about anything. Maybe you're thinking about, wow, what a great song.
00:40:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But your mind is available because you're doing this repetitive task. Now contrast that to another that we work in the shop when, let's say, you're doing something that is deeply challenging.
00:40:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you're in a flow state. it it is ah It is consuming you because it's so interesting. You are so locked in. Let's say you're turning or you're carving something that really has your full scale attention.
00:41:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and hours go by like minutes right we say we're in a flow state right mihai ciksen mihai right we're in the flow we're in the flow state and that's a very different experience than the first one i mentioned right in the first one you're kind of on autopilot in the second one you are anything but on autopilot you are on focus mode and So how do each of those modes, right?
00:41:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interplay with this idea of like, oh, seek out a hobby to find ah is like ah a respite, you know, like a, you know, to find a relaxation because one is far more relaxing.
00:41:33
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You can say respite in so many different ways and you went you went with respite.
00:41:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah is it sp is it Is it respite? Respite. I don't know.
00:41:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's respite. Respite.
00:41:39
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
you can say You can say, I don't know, that was just a there was a weird emphasis, brother.
00:41:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Get back to my question. bron ba a Is it, you know, does the relaxation only happen when it's the repetitive task or can you have a very focused task also provide that rest?
00:41:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Well, yeah anytime you learn a new thing, there's no such thing as a repetitive task, right? Because you're you're fully engaged with what you're doing, even if it's the most basic things.
00:42:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:42:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure. So early on with the new thing, you're going to be locked in and focused, but then with familiarity, you'll move to that more relaxation.
00:42:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So,
00:42:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yes, yes. And... Sure, sure. So let's assume you've been woodworking for a number of years and, you know, milling is not intellectually engaging at this point. I do still think, and this is this is my experience. Sherry, I'm very curious to hear if there's studies on this or information on this, but i mindless tasks come in different ways.
00:42:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
qualities, if that's a good way to phrase that, you know, like consuming versus creating are different things.
00:42:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What do you mean?
00:42:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And you can sit there.
00:42:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay. Like watching TV versus making something?
00:42:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can sit there and watch TV and you'd be like, it's a mindless activity and I just need to shut the brain off and and let the body relax for a little bit.
00:42:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:42:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And that's totally fine. There's value in that. But if you do too much of that, then I mean, at least I should speak from the first person. I get that feeling of like, what the fuck am I doing with my life?
00:43:02
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like, I'm just, I'm just being fucking gluttonous, you know?
00:43:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And that's different from a mindless activity that you do when you're in a creative mode.
00:43:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:43:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And even if you've not, like there are days where you get home from the shop and you're like, I didn't actually accomplish anything, quote unquote. But you did. You milled a bunch of material. You set yourself up for success.
00:43:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And even if you had the ability to turn the brain off for a time period, that I think it's it's a small difference, but I think it is a qualitative difference.
00:43:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i think that I think you're exactly right. And let's put like the behavior therapy lens on it. So the mindless task where you're accomplishing something, you're getting mastery, even though it may not be that pleasurable, like maybe a little bit low on the pleasure scale, but mastery.
00:43:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's true. And you feel, I finished something, I accomplished something.
00:43:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
00:43:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The TV, it starts pleasure. um but because it's so passive, so passive. the it's goes downhill, just like you described, like, it's fun, you watch you like a show or two. But after four or five hours, yeah, you feel like your life's going downhill.
00:44:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So um, so that's like, that's the one caveat actually about um pleasurable activities. And we don't want to like just hang our hat on things that bring us pleasure.
00:44:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
because they usually go downhill if we kind of OD on them. um So that i kind of puts a little bit of a lens on that. Yeah, so I want to actually cut that idea of working with your hands, Eric. I want to extract i want to abstract out to humans as a whole, right?
00:44:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, why do we find working with our hands pleasurable? Because we do, right?
00:44:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I think it's just innate in us.
00:44:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We do.
00:44:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like we've been doing it for so fucking long.
00:44:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's in, yes, yes, yes.
00:44:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It's deep.
00:44:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
As primates.
00:44:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like this is like, this is like medulla oblongata shit.
00:44:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes, yes.
00:44:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like this is deep in the brainstem.
00:44:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Mm-hmm.
00:44:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, and I, maybe that's part of the reason why passive or even like,
00:45:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right
00:45:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
even if it's active, but but the entertainment thing. Entertainment comes, it's good. And it like what I mean by like active entertainment, I'm thinking of phone games, you know whatever it is, Wordle. And like I don't want to shit on anybody who likes Wordle. It's great. Keep your mind engaged.
00:45:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But is there a point, or Sherry, is there any research on like, A puzzle game on your phone is good, but it's not, it's not solving.
00:45:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
There is, it's like solving an equation.
00:45:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not solving a depression.
00:45:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You know, there's, you know, there's an end point to the thing in your job.
00:45:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:45:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like you're a mouse in a maze trying to find the cheese versus you are a mouse in the wild trying to scavenge and you're trying to figure out how to survive.
00:45:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Trying to scavenge the cheese. This is such a good question because
00:45:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah. yeah.
00:45:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, I love this question. So it's this. OK, so the other piece of behavior therapy is going to bring in another concept is this idea of values.
00:46:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So um when we ask people to think about, you know, behaviors that bring but mastery and pleasure, the framework we put on that is really to have them think about that in from the lens of what you value in life.
00:46:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So like if you're doing a rote task that's important to make the project that you're making, even though it's super boring, um that's going to have more sense of mastery because you value the outcome Whereas if I'm playing Candy Crush um and I'm killing it, um I might feel like that pleasure thing and it's going to go downhill after a while when I do too much of it. And I'm not, the mastery is a really, you know, it's a very light hit.
00:46:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Cause like, yeah, i mastered Candy Crush, but that's not connected to I'm pretty far on Candy Crush. I'm on level 4,000 actually.
00:46:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah yeah
00:46:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's so far. Which just speaks to how much he plays.
00:47:01
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's where, yeah, no, this motherfucker doesn't work.
00:47:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was, I'm like in the eight hundred
00:47:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I text this guy at like 1030 in the morning on a Tuesday and he's like, yeah, no, I'm not doing jack shit.
00:47:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, shut up. That not even true.
00:47:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:47:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Aside of Paul, most people don't value the outcome of a video game, which I have a lot of stories about him very late at night.
00:47:21
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
that That's the after show shit right there.
00:47:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So anyway. anyway so no, like, so, so really like it's, we're not, that's not a valuable, ah like it's not connected to something important in my life. I'm not striving to like win at that.
00:47:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like it, when I think of my pie slices, these things aren't there. So but that's the difference is one thing is valuable to you and one thing really isn't.
00:47:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So I wonder, is part of the value... for lack of a better way to phrase it, um autonomy. i So I'm thinking of like my emotional experience with like playing a lot of video games or versus creating a thing.
00:48:02
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I think the, this is the first time I'm thinking this through. So I may be way off base, but I think part of the, that kind of like yeah feeling that kind of like that, that dissatisfaction with it after a while is the fact that I know that somebody is feeding me this puzzle, this game, this thing to do
00:48:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:48:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And without them, i am kind of useless, right?
00:48:30
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like without them providing the puzzle, I have no puzzle to solve.
00:48:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. You're a monkey dancing to their music.
00:48:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Whereas Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:48:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:48:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And so whereas like in woodworking and it's just that's the example at hand, but it could be painting, it could be writing music, it could be playing music, whatever the thing is um that I'm creating my own puzzle to solve.
00:48:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Hmm.
00:48:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And that level of autonomy is, I think, really important, at least to me, because then it means like the the There are no limits. like It's boundless at that point. And I can push it however far I want it to go.
00:49:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I'm not reliant on them once I get to level 40 to be like, well, create a level 41 for me.
00:49:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, Eric, you're you're you're writing your own book instead of reading someone else's book that that was written for you, right?
00:49:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right, right. But even, yes.
00:49:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're writing, like which is could go any interest.
00:49:16
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And and even even in in active you know participation, right?
00:49:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:49:21
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like, let's, let's but maybe we can thread the needle here.
00:49:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:49:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We're like, if you're an actor in a play, there is ah there are boundaries to what your character is. There are lines, there are scenes, et cetera, et cetera. But your creative participation in that play allows you to take that character potentially in places that has never been taken before.
00:49:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right. Whereas, you know, before you master that skill, like there's no, you're just doing, you're copying whatever came before you.
00:49:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Or watching from the audience.
00:49:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Or watching from the audience.
00:49:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, there's there's different levels of reward that come with actually doing the thing as opposed to watching others do the thing.
00:49:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:49:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:49:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah. So, Eric, I want to come back to that piece that you were talking about earlier about like it's in us, like the medulla emblangata, right?
00:50:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
Human Evolution and Sedentary Lifestyles
00:50:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because I think that is, I want to press on that, right? You know, I was curious, how long have humans, homo sapiens, how long have we been on this earth as a distinct species?
00:50:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Do you have you happen to know? I looked it up.
00:50:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I know the answer because I looked it up. A long time.
00:50:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
uh i as ah as a as a homo sapiens i'm gonna say years
00:50:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, like as distinct from the other early hominids. Millions? You
00:50:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
sure? You want to throw a guess in there? Million. Okay. One dollar. No, so hominid, like early early human precursors.
00:50:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yeah always go ninety nine cents sherry come on now
00:50:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
don't know. early Early. How far am I going back? i don't know. Early human precursors, yeah yeah, definitely like a million years. But Homo sapien, as ah as a distinct species, the earliest fossil is like 200,000 years, 300,000 years is like the earliest.
00:50:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay, okay.
00:51:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, split the difference. i mean so right So that means we have been around, right? but Let's just say for the sake of argument, a quarter of of a million years, 250,000 years.
00:51:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that whole time we are wired and we came from wiring that was all about hunting, gathering, making, you know, running for your life, eating, know, we're doing everything manually.
00:51:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You were not sitting around looking at screens, pressing buttons.
00:51:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:51:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You were working with your hands. That is what your, that was survival. That is who you are.
00:51:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yeah
00:51:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is in your DNA only in the last 70 years. Did we come up with screens?
00:51:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But even even apart from screens, right?
00:51:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And
00:51:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
The idea of leisure time and and you know early...
00:51:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes, there was no, there was probably very little leisure.
00:51:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
well Well, I mean, the earliest humans probably had a lot of leisure time because they weren't farming all fucking day, right? They were hunting...
00:51:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:51:58
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And whatever.
00:51:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I don't think so.
00:51:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
even if they didn even if they had Even if they had zero free time, right?
00:52:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They were probably like scraping for food most of the day.
00:52:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
like that That almost plays in more to the point I'm going to make.
00:52:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:52:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:52:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
they could have made the decision to like, Hey, it was a long day of fucking hunting saber tooth tigers. Guys, let's fucking hang up the cleats and the spears.
00:52:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
00:52:18
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And, uh, let's just, let's just hunker down by the fire and smoke some weed and fall asleep. But, but we fucking invented art.
00:52:30
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
about tens of thousands of years, maybe 100,000 years before we came up with farming. This is how deeply innate making objects and telling stories is in our DNA.
00:52:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, I like that that. I like that slant. That's so interesting.
00:52:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Do you guys know the Lion Man? um One of the earliest pieces. it's that It's one of the earliest sculptures. How about the Vitruvian woman? No, these tiny, tiny little...
00:52:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I know the Vitruvian Man. Are they like cave drawings?
00:52:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
that Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's no, these, these are sculptures. The cave drawings go back even farther than that.
00:52:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, okay.
00:52:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
The lion man is this it's made out of bone. I believe it was tusk. And, you know, it's maybe 12 to 14 inches, something like that. And it's very obviously very, very crude.
00:53:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um But somebody had this in their, there they presumably used it as an aid to tell stories around the campfire at night. But they got, again, got home from a long day of fucking hunting woolly mammoths.
00:53:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And this this motherfucker was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to carve a fucking figurine out of an old tusk so that I'm going to invest my time and my energy in doing this thing and making this physical object, which is going to make the stories that we tell around the campfire more vivid for whomever is paying a cent.
00:53:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:53:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
there's There's this innate, deep drive to create and not just like intellectually create, but physically create.
00:53:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's amazing.
00:53:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So do you think it's an aspect of communication then? Because the way that you described like its early beginnings is we use it to so communicate with each other, to tell stories.
00:54:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
i think I think that's...
00:54:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Is art communication?
00:54:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Now we're getting deep into the shit guys. Uh, in short, yeah, I think our, our, the, the job of an artist is to, to articulate their human experience.
00:54:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think it is.
00:54:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Through the art, yeah.
00:54:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, through through whatever medium they have, whether it's it's and an instrumentalist playing the violin in a way that makes you weep and you can't quite put your finger on why, but you know you've had that emotion in the past.
00:54:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:54:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:54:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Or seeing a painting or a sculpture that you go like, holy shit, like I know exactly what this thing is emoting without knowing who made it, without looking at the artist statement.
00:54:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Or reading a story and you go like, this is a fictional character in a universe where spaceships blow each other up with lasers. And yet I connect deeply to this non real person's human experience.
00:54:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
All of that is just people trying to articulate what it is to be human.
00:54:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So If there is this sort of like common thread of like art and communication, they're somehow intertwined. then I'm thinking back to the relationships part of our pie chart. Cause like communication is about human interaction.
00:55:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
bringing it all the way back around.
00:55:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She just brought it full circle. The shrink has always got to go back to the touchy feely stuff. But isn't it true? It's how humans are relating to each other. Through story.
00:55:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:55:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
through It's a language that you're speaking yeah with your art, whatever the art happens to be. but this And so communication requires humans. It's an interpersonal relationship.
00:55:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Act. That's...
00:55:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Communication requires humans.
00:55:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So... Yeah, we don't talk to walls.
00:55:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Fuck, that's good, Sherry.
00:55:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I have talked to a wall. Well, maybe Eric talks to walls occasionally. On most days, don't.
00:55:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I talk to myself more often than I talk to all.
00:55:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So you guys have absolutely, you know, I think we've made a very- very interesting.
00:55:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
00:55:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We've made a very compelling case, like how ah important it is to work with your hands. how it It's what it means to be human because that's how we evolve.
00:55:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Thank you.
00:55:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yet, if you look at statistics like 1980 2015, right? so it's a thirty five year window in the United States, and you say, what kinds of jobs are trending?
00:56:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Jobs with social and analytical skills, like so-called white collar, kind of like college degree jobs have increased 94%. All right.
00:56:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Jobs with physical skills, like working with your hands. Do you want to guess how much they increased?
00:56:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
two percent
00:56:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it's like 12%. so So, we're, like, as a society, funny...
00:56:33
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I was going to say, is this this is a value question about our society, right?
00:56:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, we are trending in the wrong direction, given our humanness.
00:56:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
and and And how we feel how we feel about objects in and of themselves. We value, we've had, Paul, we've had this conversation on air and off air many a time.
00:56:47
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We value intellect of the mind over intelligence of the hands at multiple fold.
00:56:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. As a society, but I don't know. So... so the So the other thing that's happening during that period of time that's totally tracking with what you're saying is we're getting unhealthier. So in that period of time, we see higher rates of depression. Absolutely. Sedentary behavior.
00:57:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And sedentary behavior is very connected to moods. So and depression and sedentary behavior are associated as well as... um very much rapidly increasing obesity rates during that same time period. Obesity is a bit leveled off, but it's worked to the point where ah like over a third of adults in the country are obese.
00:57:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so by not having more physically, and like technology is making us very sedentary. We're not using our hands. We're not or sitting down all day. So in support of what Sherry just said, like there is, I found a very interesting study today.
00:57:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dr. Kelly Lambert, a professor of behavioral neuroscience at the University of Richmond is doing experiments on rats to ask if working with your hands has some connection to neurotransmission with rats, right?
00:57:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Sure,
00:57:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because humans, we can always like misreport and what have you.
00:57:58
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
sure, sure.
00:57:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Humans are very difficult to study.
00:57:58
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
sure
00:58:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah So they just measure things in rats and they found that Using rodents to study the the connection between hand and brain connection, rats who were made to dig for their reward and like food showed much greater signs of mental health, meaning like their stress hormones, their typical like neurotransmission paths were nor like quote unquote in the normal range.
00:58:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whereas if you, what they call, if you just give them food freely, no digging, no work involved, they called them trust fund rats. Those trust fund rats.
00:58:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So entitled. Yeah.
00:58:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It is. Well, that's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting way to phrase it though, because like, and don't, don't we all know the people who have, ah yeah how do I phrase this without being a judgmental asshole?
00:58:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:58:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We all know people who, who have,
00:58:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Too late.
00:58:58
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Maybe they've gone and they've, they've tried to do interesting things and they want to like, you know, build, build a thing up and build a new business, et cetera, et cetera. But, um, the, a couple of friends that I have who are in kind of the trust fund baby camp, they still have that feeling.
00:59:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's like, it's kind of an incomplete accomplishment, not even because they didn't do it, but because there was no risk involved. Yeah. There was no like they always had a fallback. It was very easy to be like, I'll take this risk. And if it doesn't work out, I'll just fucking dip out.
00:59:30
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You know, I think I think risk reward is a really important process there.
00:59:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see. yeah Yeah.
00:59:34
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
If if there's no real risk, then it's like playing a video game.
00:59:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:59:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:59:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I'll jump off this fucking video like, i'll yeah, I'll jump off this building in the video game and find out if that's the right path because nothing matters.
00:59:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's like fake. yeah Yeah. It's like fake wrist. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. yeah
00:59:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, the Trust Fund rats, they they were just given everything on a silver platter and they showed signs of mental stress. They had higher stress hormone release.
00:59:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm. Mm.
00:59:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now, it's hard to say if a rat is like better off or you know what the well-being at a rat is by it, but at least you could say when they were just given stuff freely, easily, they had a higher stress level than if they were made to do their normal foraging for food.
01:00:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, this gets also back to like pleasure mastery. They had no opportunity for mastery. Like if the food's right in front of you. Yes. And yeah we are wired for immediate gratification too.
01:00:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So like, yeah, food's right in front of us. What do we do? We're going to eat it. so um So the the other rats obviously had opportunities for mastery. I mean, maybe it was a pain in the butt to be like digging around for their food.
01:00:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But then, yeah, big reward center of the brain, you know, popping when they find that food. And so they're they're they're motivated, they're activated. So and actually ah it makes sense.
01:00:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. yeah i You're basically saying what's true about humans is true about all animals. I mean, because we all come from the same background of forging for food.
01:00:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Because that's Medulla Oblongata shit right there, guys.
01:00:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it is. Well, all right. So, you know, let's let's wrap up this first segment. I think this is very self-consistent. Everything I heard today from the five roots idea, Sherry, to Eric, some of your your experiences to like some of these studies I mentioned.
01:01:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's all it's all circling around the same idea, which is working with your hands is who we were always looking. evolved to be, honestly.
01:01:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's all this computer shit and sedentary and screens that's new in the last 50 to 70 years. And no wonder we're suffering because that's not who we are. ah you know, historically were wired to be.
01:01:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you want to read more about this, Sherry's actually writing an article and it will be published by the time this podcast is released in Psychology Today. There'll be a companion piece to this podcast. It'll actually mention the podcast.
01:01:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So if you want to read, you know, like Sherry's a great writer. If you want to read like her really, you know, concise thoughts this. A little bit more detail about what we just talked about. Yeah, you can check out...
01:02:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
if it If it doesn't say medulla oblongata shit in that article, this friendship is over.
01:02:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm going to add it. it didn't. OK, well, I can definitely sneak that in. i One thing I'll say, too, is just like as a wrap up is um for those of you out there who are listening and you know you're doing your craft to really actually being mindful of how it does change your mental state from going into the activity and then coming out of it.
01:02:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Because ah a lot of times, I think when we're doing something like a craft or doing exercise, like you're only sort of thinking about it as maybe work or a task. But to be mindful of the the experience, you may notice things that like Eric and Paul were talking about.
01:02:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um And it was interesting to hear you guys reflect on it. I don't know if you had thought about that before. Not really. it's I think it's it's something to think about. Excellent. Excellent. All right, Eric.
01:02:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
so let's let's shift into a second seg now we uh that was a phenomenal that first seg was a full hour and it was front to back phenomenal um but but we did you know listen we we hit on some heady topics we hit on some heavy topics and i thought that we could lighten it up with a second seg um where i want to hear about some creative wins that that happened recently because
01:02:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It went fast. It went fast. Again? Yeah.
01:03:17
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Part of the, I guess, the gamble of being a creative person, of taking on a creative task is, you know, sometimes it just doesn't fucking work. Like sometimes you you you invest time and energy and money into a thing and you get, you know, 60, 70, 80% through it.
01:03:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
01:03:33
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And you're like, this fucking sucks.
01:03:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:03:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like this is not working.
01:03:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
true.
01:03:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Um, and, and when those happen, you know, a couple of times back to back, I think we can lose steam.
01:03:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:03:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We can really start to lose that, that confidence in ourselves.
01:03:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:03:47
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Um, and I think all it really takes is kind of one win to kind of regain your footing.
01:03:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah so true
01:03:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So, so I want to hear about some creative wins recently. Uh, Pauly, Pauly Shore, you want to go first?
01:03:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. Yeah. So I am in the middle or almost finishing a very important commission to me. This is a watch box. And the reason it's important to me is because it was my college roommate who asked me to make it for his soon to be fiancee.
01:04:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He and I have always gotten along. And he, even though we went to a technical school, we both were very art driven. He was a professional upright bass player, jazz for 20 years.
01:04:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he was as serious as it gets. He moved to New York City. He went for it. So dude is an artist. Like Artist capital A.
01:04:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like he ate, breathed, sleeped, like the whole lifestyle, right, of of ah of a jazz musician.
01:04:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Thank you.
01:04:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when he asked me to make something for him, Here you have this exceptional artist asking me ah to make something. And of course I wanted his input because you know artists love to design together. That's part of the friendship. So he asked me to make a watch box. right off the bat, I knew design-wise this was gonna be a challenge because, well, I didn't know how much of a challenge. I didn't know if like he'd be, I didn't know how he'd be with me because in this case, I'm gonna take the lead as the artist.
01:05:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But I do want his design input. So he starts by saying, I want a like a very specific, beautiful latch on the front made of like metal.
01:05:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And first off, I'm like, I don't know how to fucking make that. like I've never made a latch. I've never put it on a box. And I started to OK, so we're going to do this. So I started drawing ideas.
01:05:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I showed him some flower ideas. We were thinking floral because his fiance loves floral. And we were going back and forth. He's like, yes, she likes this one or not this one. But he had to do it in a way sheet where she didn't know there was something cooking.
01:05:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like he just was like, oh, what do you think of this drawing? A friend of mine did this, you know, real, real clandestine.
01:06:02
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It's a pro move.
01:06:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. So, um so we're, we're, we're agreed on the flower. So I make the flower and I hope I make the box kind of separately. And I hold the, cause I don't know how to attach it yet.
01:06:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I hold, the i engraved it out of brass and I hold the flower up to the box and it just didn't Like it just didn't work visually.
01:06:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
01:06:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The flower with that wood, with that box, like the box is so beautiful. It's highly figured English walnut. The flower out of brass just is not working. They're like fighting for attention.
01:06:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Both of them are beautiful in their own accord and together it just isn't working. So your question was, what's the artistic win or the creative win? So I'm like, what the fuck am I going to do? So I'm like, let's have a video conference.
01:06:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So we have a video conference and I show him like what, ah what, you know, without telling him what to do, because he's like, I said, he's an artist with capital A and he drew the same conclusion. so I was like, right.
01:06:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, yeah.
01:06:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's like a minute. That's like a mini win. And then he's like, well, maybe we could put something on the inside the box.
01:06:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm-hmm.
01:07:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So then we opened the box and I show him all the watch holders and beautiful. It's all figured highly curly, you know, walnut inside the box. And We're like, maybe we can put like on the sit, there's a, there's a divider system. Maybe we can put some engraving on the dividers, maybe some brass inlay, maybe her name, maybe this, maybe that.
01:07:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And over time it became clear that's not going to work either.
01:07:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
01:07:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she doesn't want her name. She, she, he weaseled that out of her somehow without telling her that he's planning a box for her. And It was just stressful the whole time because I only have two more weeks to get this to him.
01:07:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's like this push-pull of like, what? Like he asked for this, but it's not working. He asked for that, but it's not working. And I had to kind of bring him along with me creatively to let him see that it's not working.
01:07:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, yeah.
01:07:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he agreed 100% with me. Like never did he not agree. And today, just today, I showed him, I said, how about we just use... beautiful figured wood, no inlays, no human ornamentation.
01:08:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let nature speak because his his fiance is all about nature, the beauty of wood, the natural, just just subtle, natural beauty.
01:08:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
There it is. Yep, yep.
01:08:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Let that speak. Don't interfere. right And so i him and I were feeling that vibe.
01:08:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:08:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I went with that vibe. I showed him the picture today. He was over the moon. So like what turned out to be a very...
01:08:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mmm.
01:08:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I was nervous for weeks about the, the clasp and the, this and the, that it turned out to be a creative win. Cause I, I, I,
Creativity, Grief, and Vulnerability
01:08:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it worked out.
01:08:34
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
that's, that's, that's the mouse who has to dig for the cheese, isn't it? Right?
01:08:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:08:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like that's that because if you had just built the fucking box and the flower worked, you would have been like, that's cool.
01:08:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, you're digging. Yeah.
01:08:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That was a nice thing I did for my buddy.
01:08:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:08:46
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You know, like I'm glad they liked it.
01:08:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:08:47
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But now you have this thing where you had to like claw your way to the solution and you went through iteration after iteration and you got there and now like, you know, like I can see it in your eyes, buddy.
01:08:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah
01:08:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:08:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You're like, this fucking works and I am elated that it's fucking working.
01:08:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's good. Yeah. Oh, Eric. Eric, it looks so good. And and he is pleased as pie with our solution.
01:09:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:06
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, but but it's because it's because you had to go figure it the fuck out.
01:09:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:09:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You had to really find it in the muck, you know?
01:09:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:09:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. I love that.
01:09:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I dig it, buddy. That's a good win. All right, Sherry, what do you got?
01:09:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thanks. Okay. Oh, creative one. Okay, so I'm not a crafter. I get my creative outlet through writing.
01:09:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
01:09:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And um the kind of writing that really excites me, and this is like where I really connect with what you were saying earlier, Eric, is like, um when I can do creative writing that allows me to be vulnerable,
01:09:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and share things about myself.
01:09:39
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
01:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So over the summer, um I wrote a piece about grief and, and I shared a personal story that was um not something I could ever imagine sharing like with the public.
01:09:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm-hmm.
01:09:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um But I was like, you know what? I'm letting it rip. um And the the whole idea of the piece was like, so I shared my personal experience with grief. And then i talk about a form of grief called disenfranchised grief, which is when you have a loss that,
01:10:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um people don't typically acknowledge.
01:10:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
01:10:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:10:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
01:10:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like um Like loss of a pet is ah what would be a form of disenfranchised grief. People are like, oh, sorry, and like never bring it up again, even though it lasts for a long time for you. Or in my case, I was talking about the loss of a relationship that was not a marriage. And so i like to tell my story and how disenfranchised grief is...
01:10:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um you know, expressed in all these different types of situations and how it's a really sort of lonely space because you don't really get the reaction that you might get with other losses that are more acknowledged.
01:10:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like if you get divorced, people are like, oh, you know, they're coming around you.
01:10:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right.
01:10:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
If you lose someone to death, you know, they're bringing casseroles, you know, for months to your house. And, but like some losses people just sort of don't really connect to. And so you don't,
01:11:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like people just move on.
01:11:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So anyways, like this was kind of what the piece was about. And it's something that just sort of came um to me. And so I wrote it and I was excited about it. And then I was like, you know what? I'm going to fire this off somewhere.
01:11:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
right
01:11:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, we're just going to see what happens here. And it ended up getting published in Newsweek. and And so then when, you know, the you know the editor was yeah like, oh, we're going to be publishing on such and such day.
01:11:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Damn.
01:11:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, like then the terror like, what have I done?
01:11:34
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
01:11:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like I don't know if you guys have had like, holy shit.
01:11:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Uh.
01:11:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, what have I done? Like, I'm, I'm like prematurely embarrassed and like horrified.
01:11:42
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep. Yep.
01:11:45
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:11:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, but then at the same time, there's like this feeling of like, jumping off a building, but you can fly. so you're like terrified, but you're like, but here I go.
01:11:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Mm.
01:11:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's sort of fun.
01:11:56
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:11:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And for some reason I'm flying. um So it had that feeling. And that's that like good opiate kind of thing that I want to keep going back for.
01:12:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah. Yeah.
01:12:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like the the vulnerability part of the creativity. That was the risk. That was.
01:12:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:12:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was the risk component you.
01:12:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yeah
01:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I felt like it did bring me personally to a space where I was being um riskier vulnerability even men in my personal life.
01:12:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so um so that kind of leaves me going back for more of that, of like, I really want it.
01:12:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
01:12:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And actually in the psychology today piece- Eric, she's chasing the dragon.
01:12:36
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
She is.
01:12:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i'm I'm chasing it.
01:12:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
She's chasing the dragon. 100%. Hmm.
01:12:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
going chase it right off a cliff. um It feels like that sometimes, but like, but yeah, so actually in the piece, the psychology today piece, I start off with a personal story as well as a way to sort of like frame, like how I've dealt with my own um battles with like grief and depression and that sort of thing. And, and how,
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So i've been on both sides of the therapy chair. And um so it's it's interesting to have those dueling perspectives of like how I think about my own versus like how I might think about my patients.
01:13:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:13:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And um yeah, so anyways, that was my- That sounds like a win.
01:13:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's a, that's a big win.
01:13:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That was my win, yeah.
01:13:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
uh, I'm curious, you know, you, you, as Paul said, definitely feel like you're, you're trying to chase the dragon again. Um, i I, and I think Paul kind of shares this philosophy of, um, not everything can be a home run, you know, every, like a standup single is valuable, but But I also think that you can't predict when you're going to hit a home run.
01:13:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You know, often if you swing for the fences, you fly out, you know, and, and sometimes what happens is you have that thing and you just go, fuck that works.
01:13:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm. Mmm.
01:13:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ye
01:13:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And what I have had to deal with is accepting like, cause inevitably the next thing I do, I'm i'm just going to hit another fucking home run. Like I'm on a hot streak. Let's go. But I have to accept that like, okay, the next thing I make probably isn't going to be a home run. I'm probably not going back to back.
01:14:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So I'm curious how you're feeling right now as like the, you know, the Newsweek article comes out and you're like elated, you're flying, you're, you know, preemptively embarrassed, as you said, which is a term I'm absolutely going to steal.
01:14:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah How do you, how do you...
01:14:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I preempt all my embarrassment with but embarrassment.
01:14:30
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
How do you interpret kind of sitting back down in the chair and writing the next thing? Do you feel the pressure of trying to to put out another banger? are you just like, I'm just here to do the thing that brings me creative fulfillment?
01:14:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's a good question. So I consider the Newsweek more of like a double or a triple because like where I really want to end up
01:14:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. All right. Stand up triple is big value though.
01:14:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, um like my my Grand Slam would be um ah modern love column in New York Times. If that happens, I'm going to like I'm going to die.
01:15:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. All right.
01:15:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So and I have shot for that and miss, but we're going to that doesn't deter me ever. So um so for me, yeah like I do want to um keep going on that, but I don't force it.
01:15:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I wonder if you guys resonate with this because it's how I feel is like I can't just be like, OK, today i'm just going to write something Like it has to sort of come to me and I don't know what brings it to me.
01:15:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:15:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I could be laying in bed at three in the morning and I have to grab my phone and start writing my thoughts because it's coming out like a hose. I'm like, where's this coming from?
01:15:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:15:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I got to write it down. It's 3 a.m. m I'm so tired, but I have to write this down.
01:15:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yep.
01:15:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um It almost like feels out of my control. and i And I wish I knew how to harness it because sometimes I want to do it. But I was like, I got nothing there. Do you? yeah is there Is that a thing?
01:15:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
A hundred percent, a hundred.
01:15:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. ah Okay. So i was like, maybe I'm just not very good.
01:15:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I, and I don't, I don't,
01:15:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, you're very, that's exactly it.
01:15:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
No, no, I think, I think that's it.
01:15:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm just not a real creative.
01:15:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I think, I think that's the sign of somebody who is good. Honestly, like there's, there's, I think you just have to make shit. And sometimes you catch the wave and sometimes you ride it, you know, but, but you're never going to catch the wave if you don't have the opportunity, if you're not making things and then you hit it and you go like, Oh, this is it.
01:16:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:16:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's true, yeah.
01:16:17
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I'm just going to go do the thing. If you're not constantly making things and constantly trying and taking the pressure off of not trying to catch the wave and waiting for the right one, then, you know, like, then you don't have the opportunity to, to strike when it's hot.
01:16:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so sure. There's a, there's a saying among creatives that inspiration will come, but it's gotta find you working. Yeah. And I don't mean, i don't mean like you were sleeping in your example.
01:16:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't mean that like it only comes while you're literally in the act of working, but you have to be active in general for those inspirational thoughts to hit you.
01:16:42
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:16:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
of
01:16:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They're not going to hit you if you've taken an eight month hiatus. Oh yeah.
01:16:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:16:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah yeah
01:16:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:16:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
For sure.
01:16:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:16:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How about you, Eric?
01:16:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So this is, ah this is going to involve social media to a little bit. So I want to also be aware that maybe tinge of this is like the, the,
01:17:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I don't know what the right word is, the the gambling effect of like striking it big, you know, but but I do think it's largely a creative win, which is why I bring it up. So I've been putting out YouTube videos for two years.
01:17:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um That's a big driver of my business. And for the entire time I've been in this shop, as I told you before, Sherry, Larissa and are, you know, one of my best friends on the planet. She's my shop mate.
01:17:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And the whole time I've been like, listen, we need to just start a YouTube channel together. You know, like it's, it's cause she is a phenomenal woodworker. We like our back and forth in the shop is fucking hilarious.
01:17:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And, um, I've always been like people, care more about the relationships than they do about the vehicle. Like the people care more about the story than they do about the characters, right?
01:18:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It's, it's how do you relate this human experience?
01:18:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
01:18:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And what I have been telling her for probably close to two years is like, You are a master woodworker. i am a master woodworker. We are genuinely friends who who can pick on each other and lift each other up simultaneously. like there's There is a lack of space on YouTube of just like, woodworking can just be fucking fun.
01:18:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
None of it has to matter. It doesn't have to be that deep. Let's just go make shit and create a space where people feel comfortable being in our space with us. Right? And so, you know, there's a lot of hemming and hawing and I'm very busy and she's very busy. So it took a long time to to kind of get things moving. And um we filmed the first video in January and I want to edit the first few videos so that we can kind of find the voice of the channel before I hand that off to my editor. So ah that takes up a lot of time too.
01:19:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But finally, finally, we put out the video on Friday and we made the decision. We were like, we're not going to promote it at first. It's going to be a soft launch. We're not going to tell people about it Just want to see what it does.
01:19:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So we put it out at Friday at noon and in the first four hours, it got zero views. So, so I was like, all right, all right.
01:19:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
So I texted her. And I was like, I i make it.
01:19:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's an extra soft launch.
01:19:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
we We decided we weren't going to promote it till Sunday.
01:19:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Whisper.
01:19:32
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I was like, I'm making the executive decision to to promote the channel now because it's pretty evident it's not going to do fuck all without us telling people it exists, which is fair. That's how the algorithm works. Um, so I post some stories about it on Instagram. I posted about it on YouTube and people start trickling over and they check it out.
01:19:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And, you know, at first it's, it's what you expect it to be. It's kind of friends. It's the diehards. It's people who are like, you know, I'll, if Eric puts out a thing, I'll watch that. If Larissa puts out a thing, I'll watch that.
01:20:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We have enough overlap, there are a few thousand views at first. And then over the course of the last 48 hours or so, um it's it's kept snowballing. And it's, I mean, listen, I mean, in the grand scheme of YouTube, like it's closing in it on 30,000 views. It's not that big a video, but...
01:20:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
In the woodworking space and for an initial launch video, a channel with zero subs when we dropped it.
01:20:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
A channel with no subs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:20:29
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah It's fantastic.
01:20:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's big.
01:20:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And v the consistent and overwhelming positive response from people has been like, this is the fucking woodworking channel that I have been waiting for.
01:20:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Aww.
01:20:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
This is the kind of like the nonsense, like the back and forth silliness, but also you're both high level crafts people.
01:20:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
01:20:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
There's there's things that I can pick up from watching you work and listen to you talk. But also, I just want to fucking hang out with you guys and feel like everything is OK. And woodworking can just be a joyful experience.
01:21:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I was, i was reasonably sure that that was going to be how people responded.
01:21:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:21:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Like they would be happy to see us together, but Larissa had her doubts.
01:21:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a win.
01:21:12
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Cause you know, she's, she's a very, um, she she preemptively has a lot of anxiety about things. Right. And so she, she and I were texting yesterday and she's like, I'm literally crying reading these comments.
01:21:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And I think that's where the creative wind came in is like the, to, to do a thing with such ah a close friend and a wonderful person.
01:21:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Aww. That's nice.
01:21:35
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And to, to do the thing where I'm like, you have so much value to give to this community. And people can like, there's so many women in the woodworking space who just want to see other women be bad bitches.
01:21:49
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And she is very much that. And, and to see all of these people kind of, um you know, positively reinforce or, or force her maybe, maybe a better way to phrase it is force her to reckon with the fact that she's fucking likable and talented and capable.
01:21:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Aww.
01:22:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Nice.
01:22:05
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
um That was, it was, it was a really, really lovely weekend to watch that unfold.
01:22:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's great, dude. That's awesome.
01:22:11
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah.
01:22:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
win. Congratulations. Fantastic.
01:22:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It was a good win. yeah, yeah. It was a good
Humorous Advertisement Segment
01:22:15
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
win. So that all said, but um let's let's jump into an ad read real quick because our our dear friends our dear friend Billy Boy has come back for another ad.
01:22:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, real quick. Bill Burkle.
01:22:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And Sherry, here's what I thought we could do.
01:22:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh. oh Okay.
01:22:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I'm going to ask you three questions that are all based around our wonderful sponsor, WTV Woodworking. And I'm going to see what you know, if you're comfortable with that. All right with you?
01:22:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
01:22:45
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
All right. All right. So my first question, my first question is, what do you, what do you think WTB stands for?
01:22:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
WTB?
01:22:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
WTB of WTB woodworking in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania.
01:22:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
oh um WTB, definitely. So it's sort of a family.
01:23:07
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
She's having an on.
01:23:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it's a family family. phrase from the founders and it goes back like a lot of generations actually and that um like back into like 1700s where there um there were like three families that sort of merged and which w was the williams and then t was the thompsons and then b was
01:23:32
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. All right. o
01:23:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The Billsbees.
01:23:41
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
The Billsbies?
01:23:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Billsbees. The Billsbees.
01:23:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
The Billsbies.
01:23:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyways, that's not important.
01:23:45
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. So we...
01:23:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So these three families came together and they made this company and it's been going on for a really long time, WTV. Wow.
01:23:52
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
This WTB woodworking that yeah did you guys know that WTB woodworking has been around since 1734?
01:23:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that close?
01:23:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And
01:23:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it true?
01:24:00
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
and
01:24:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No. Oh. Sit around for Even a blind squirrel.
01:24:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
But but now it's 100 percent Williams Thompson's built bills piece.
01:24:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Built Bees.
01:24:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Billsby's.
01:24:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:24:10
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's what it is for the rest of forever now.
01:24:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Built Bees.
01:24:13
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah
01:24:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:24:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
WCB stands for William Teresa Burkle.
01:24:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is it an acronym?
01:24:17
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I don't know what his middle name is.
01:24:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I was close.
01:24:20
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah You were very close.
01:24:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think, didn't I say Williams? Yeah, Williams.
01:24:22
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You did. It was very close.
01:24:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You got, you actually- want partial credit.
01:24:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You guessed the first name right, yeah.
01:24:24
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay.
01:24:25
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Definitely.
01:24:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Can I count that as a single?
01:24:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
yeah
01:24:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Built Bees, though.
01:24:27
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Bill, if you don't on your logo now say established 1734, the sponsorship a segment is officially over.
01:24:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:24:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
01:24:34
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah So, all right. Our next question at WTV woodworking, our Lord and savior, Bill Burkle sells Maffel.
01:24:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
01:24:43
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
What do you think Maffel is?
01:24:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mephel? That's amazing.
01:24:45
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
What do you think Maffel means?
01:24:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mephel is a rare wood that comes from, it's like in the the Chilean area of the Amazon.
01:24:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
okay all right
01:24:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a wood and they're like very thin shrunk trees that are really tall. And, but the leaves create a lot of like cover for the small earth, earth creatures.
01:25:08
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay, so it's so it's a good... Is it a good structural wood? Usually I'm imagining with a big long stem like that.
01:25:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Um, oftentimes, yeah, I mean, oftentimes they use it to make small boxes and crafty things.
01:25:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, okay. All right. So that the the Chilean folk are more of box making people's.
01:25:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, yes, that's it goes way back to 1734 ish.
01:25:28
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. All right. Noted. Noted. The first time that we imported Maffel, Curly Maffel into the United States was 1734.
01:25:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yes
01:25:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's good to know. Okay. ah am i third my third and final question for you, Sherry.
01:25:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What is Mephel? Are you going to tell us?
01:25:44
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Maffel is a tool company.
01:25:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, well, that Mephel.
01:25:48
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That's all. Oh, that, looked oh, old man Maffel's boy.
01:25:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
named it after the tree. they should say They should be more honest about that.
01:25:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. Right, right, right. Right.
01:25:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Fair, fair.
01:25:56
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. Yeah.
01:25:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What kind of tools, Eric?
01:25:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
You can see where I would get confused. ah They make a bunch of different things though. I know them from their, their doweling plate. They make ah one of the fancier dowlers on the, on the market track saws, routers, that kind of thing.
01:26:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Got it.
01:26:09
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
WTV is becoming a full on Maffel retailer. So you should check them out.
01:26:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:26:14
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I believe in April, by the time this podcast comes out, he'll have a line of Maffel going. ah So my, my third and final question for you, is what exactly does a moisture meter measure?
01:26:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's the obvious answer that a lot of people say, but it's actually wrong is moisture.
01:26:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
01:26:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah What it actually is is like, so it's a special barometer for wood shops. They need something different because like the wood absorbs some of the moisture. So if you just use like a regular barometer, it's not going to really measure.
01:26:53
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right, right, right. It's only getting ambient moisture.
01:26:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, exactly.
01:26:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Right, right.
01:26:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:26:59
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Okay. So so how how does the moisture meter deal with the the the interior moisture and the shot moisture? Like how does this this barometer work?
01:27:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It just, it's it it strikes the balance.
01:27:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It strikes the balance, you know
01:27:18
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That was, I mean, naturally, naturally. That's what it's there for.
01:27:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
When in doubt, that's a good phrase I was told by his wife, actually.
01:27:23
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
ah When in doubt, it strikes a balance. the ah the The Wagner moisture meters do, in fact, measure the internal moisture content of a piece of wood. So, I mean, but it strikes a balance, you know?
01:27:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Give or take. Strike that balance.
01:27:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
It strikes a
01:27:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
way
Conclusion and Gratitude
01:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, it strikes the balance. So I was right.
01:27:38
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
balance.
01:27:40
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Oh, Christ, that was good, Sherry.
01:27:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well. That feels like a trick question.
01:27:42
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
That was good.
01:27:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we need Sherry to answer all kinds of questions like that in the future. i Yeah, I'm free to do a Q&A at another time.
01:27:51
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We'll do a live event with you.
01:27:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Excellent. Yeah, I'm a little bit better on the mental health side, but she's kind of winging that one. All right.
01:27:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, yeah, we're at the hour and a half mark. ah We so seem to go longer every episode.
01:27:57
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Well.
01:28:03
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We really do, man.
01:28:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:28:04
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
We got to keep it to a tight 60 at some point.
01:28:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know what... I don't know what is going on. But anyway, we hope that this episode on working with your hands and your mental state, anxiety, depression, and a hobby and working with your hands and craft as a way to escape that or to help with that,
01:28:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was a compelling story. Sherry, thank you so much for adding that absolutely your deep expertise.
01:28:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Yeah, thank you. Yeah.
01:28:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like How often do you have a clinical PhD psychologist who is like totally well-versed in depression research, willing to talk to two idiots like us and to really you know try to try to spin her expertise in a way that we can understand.
01:28:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Hmm.
01:28:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like Really, she was taking depression research and making it a woodworking-centric
01:28:50
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And didn't talk down to either of us once. I'm a little disappointed about that, if I'm honest.
01:28:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's for the after show.
01:28:54
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
I was...
01:28:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's for the after show.
01:28:55
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
in
01:28:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was holding back, but. Don't worry. She talks to me all the time. So on that and just get on that note, ah thank you again, Sherry. Where can we find you online?
01:29:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I am at Dr. Sherry Pagato, all one word on Blue Sky and Instagram and also on LinkedIn. And yeah. All right.
01:29:19
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
And and the the article is going to be out by the time this episode drops?
01:29:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And.
01:29:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. It'll already be out. We will link to that article in the show notes.
01:29:26
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Amazing.
01:29:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It'll be there right now. All right?
01:29:30
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Amazing.
01:29:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yep.
01:29:31
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Go check it out.
01:29:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right, everyone.
01:29:32
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
Go give it a read. Thank you so much, Sherry. Okay,
01:29:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thanks. We hope you found that useful. Bye. Bye.
01:29:37
EEEEEEEEEEEYARIK
bye.