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Episode 42 - It's never too late to REINVENT YOURSELF & YOUR CAREER (w/ Michael Alm)
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Is your current career path not working out as you had hoped despite years of effort? Are you wondering if you should pivot toward something new? This type of career change can be SCARY and land you in UNCERTAIN WATERS for a time. However, you may find an even more rewarding and fulfilling career on the other side. In today's episode, Michael Alm (Almfab on Youtube and IG) tells us his inspiring story of how he reinvented himself and his career from struggling studio artist/sculptor to content creator, finding both creative fulfillment and financial stability along the way.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467) http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Guests
00:00:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Welcome one, welcome all to another episode of Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast that takes a hard look at many of the mental, emotional, creative, and philosophical issues that we all think about as makers and creatives. How's that, Eric? You like that?
00:00:33
#1 Alm Fan
That's pretty fucking good, dawg. That was a pretty good all-around summary of what we're trying to do here.
00:00:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:00:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined, of course, the chair across from me, Eric Curtis, furniture maker and content creator, as well as our original third musketeer is here again.
00:00:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't want spoil everyone. Mary Tissaie!
00:00:56
Mary
tone of surprise there heiress i wish
00:01:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah UX designer by day, contemporary furniture heiress by night.
00:01:05
Mary
heess
00:01:05
#1 Alm Fan
forgot
Transition to YouTube
00:01:06
Mary
i wish
00:01:06
#1 Alm Fan
about the heiress.
00:01:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah And with us on today's show is a guest, let's say an artist, a studio artist, a sculptor, and more recently a YouTube content creator, Michael Alm.
00:01:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Welcome to the show.
00:01:25
Michael Alm
Thanks for having me, guys.
00:01:25
Mary
Yay!
00:01:26
#1 Alm Fan
What's poppin', buddy?
00:01:26
Michael Alm
Nice to be here. Well, you know, just hanging out, making YouTube videos.
00:01:31
#1 Alm Fan
All day today, yeah?
00:01:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
00:01:32
Michael Alm
All day today. Yep.
00:01:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Michael, they say if you do what you love, ah you'll never work a day in your life.
00:01:39
#1 Alm Fan
yeah
00:01:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So my question my question to you is how did a serious ass like art like art school, artist, gallery, you know, studio art artist pivot to become a YouTube content creator?
00:01:40
Michael Alm
ah
00:02:00
Michael Alm
it's ah That's a long story, Paul.
00:02:03
Mary
you
00:02:03
#1 Alm Fan
Well, well, let's let's start at the beginning.
00:02:04
Michael Alm
ah
00:02:08
Michael Alm
ah Yeah, so I was a studio artist practicing for 10 years doing, like you said, sculpture. I studied sculpture. i ah um i For a long time, when I introduced people or introduced myself to ah people, like, what do you do? I would say I'm ah i'm a sculptor, which is always opens up for a lot of questions.
00:02:27
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, that's that's always an interesting one.
00:02:28
Michael Alm
But now I...
00:02:30
#1 Alm Fan
how How did people react when you said sculptor?
00:02:33
Michael Alm
and so It's a long pause and then a lot of questions.
00:02:35
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:02:37
Michael Alm
Because like nobody introduces them that that themselves that way.
00:02:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, I've never.
00:02:40
Michael Alm
But I'm like, about as... Yeah, when when at a party is somebody like, a sculptor. People are like, I'm i'm an artist.
00:02:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Never.
00:02:47
Michael Alm
I'm a painter, maybe. but um But I was really proud of that. like i went and I studied sculpture. very I've always been into three d art, um kind of above all else. So...
00:02:58
Michael Alm
you know It was a badge of honor and point of pride to to say that. But
Art School Days
00:03:03
Michael Alm
nowadays, yeah.
00:03:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael. ah So why sculpture? It's just because you had this aptitude 3D design. That's why you started there.
00:03:12
Michael Alm
Yeah, I would really, um yeah, i and just in art school, I just gravitated towards it. It was not, I went in thinking I'd be a painter, printmaker, two d designer, something like that. But every time I was in ah some sort of sculpture class, people were like, you got ah you got to keep this up.
00:03:30
#1 Alm Fan
It just made sense to you.
00:03:30
Mary
What kind of sculpture was it?
00:03:31
#1 Alm Fan
yeah
00:03:32
Michael Alm
I did a lot of steel sculpture in college. So I did a lot of welding and stuff and
00:03:34
Mary
Oh, that's sick.
00:03:35
#1 Alm Fan
You son of a bitch. This man can do anything.
00:03:41
Mary
That's so cool.
00:03:41
Michael Alm
well, I, I took it. So the cool thing about being in sculpture school is that you do have access to like all the tools, like all the tools. And, and you also have experts that can teach you on all the tools.
00:03:56
Michael Alm
So I was, I loved doing woodwork, uh, but I also was like, I can buy woodworking equipment, but like so some of this stuff I'll, I might never see again.
00:04:03
#1 Alm Fan
Damn. Hell yeah.
00:04:07
Michael Alm
So I did ceramics. I did glass blowing. I did.
00:04:10
#1 Alm Fan
a
00:04:10
Michael Alm
I, I tried it all. I was doing, um, like big installation work. Um, but the steel was just too much fun and they were supplying the material. I mean, I was paying for it, but they were supplying the materials and, um, you know, all the knowledge. it was like, if I'm going learn to weld, going to learn to weld here.
00:04:28
#1 Alm Fan
hell yeah
00:04:28
Michael Alm
Um, And so, yeah, it was it was a blast.
00:04:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Smart.
00:04:32
Michael Alm
I mean, every day we were in this ah like old high school. um It was like ah or it might have been an old middle school, like a 1920s middle school that was built around a courtyard. And the center courtyard was where all the sculpture kids hung out.
00:04:48
Michael Alm
And we were like the dirtiest, raddiest kids in the college.
00:04:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, ah
00:04:52
Michael Alm
My college is like crazy.
00:04:52
Mary
The sculpture, kids.
00:04:54
Michael Alm
Yeah. Oh, there's so I mean, myself included, I was just I was just covered in in steel dust. Like my face was like black for for most of it.
00:05:02
Michael Alm
And it's totally, totally.
00:05:02
#1 Alm Fan
Look like some coal miner children.
00:05:04
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:05:07
Michael Alm
it's so fun. And it was all the weirdos to like the the sculpture kids at the time. um Performance art was part of sculpture because they didn't really have a good spot for them.
00:05:19
#1 Alm Fan
they didn't know what else to do with them.
00:05:19
Mary
What?
00:05:21
Michael Alm
So, yeah, because, like, i don't I don't really know. like And then video was kind of in with the sculpture, too. So there were... I didn't... Yeah, it was like a weird, like, we'll just put them here.
00:05:32
#1 Alm Fan
It's the others.
00:05:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Michael, Michael, at that point, were you good at sculpture?
00:05:34
Mary
Wow. So you got the theater kids.
00:05:34
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:05:35
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:05:35
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:05:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you feel like, yes, I'm going to be able to make a living at this? Like, I, i you know, the indications are, well, well well yeah, but but let's answer both.
00:05:44
#1 Alm Fan
Well, those are two different questions.
00:05:45
Michael Alm
Those are...
00:05:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, how did you feel about your development as a sculptor? And what were your professors telling you? What kind of feedback were you getting? And then similarly, what were you thinking about your career at the time?
00:05:59
Michael Alm
ah Those are very good questions. um the ah on the On the confidence front, I've always been just uh, irrationally confident with like material stuff.
00:06:12
Mary
That's the way to go.
00:06:13
Michael Alm
Like ah I'll, I'll watch somebody and i'm like, Oh, I could do that.
00:06:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Atta boy.
00:06:17
Michael Alm
I could do that. I could totally do that. Get me in there. Um, it doesn't always pan out like the, the results. Like I look at my welds and I look at my, my steel sculpture and I see something that like Jimmy's made or, or Laura Conf has made or something like that. I'm like, okay.
00:06:31
Michael Alm
Uh, you know, I thought I was good, but i you know, you see, you see somebody doing something really beautiful and you're like okay.
00:06:33
#1 Alm Fan
Thank you.
00:06:37
Michael Alm
Um, uh, But I, and the other half of your question was career wise. um Well, was my sculpture good at the time?
00:06:48
Michael Alm
i liked it, but obviously it's, it's grown a lot. um I was just having fun. I was making whatever I thought was, was cool. um And, ah and they were giving me all the ability to do it.
00:07:00
Michael Alm
um
Working at Chihuly Glass
00:07:01
Michael Alm
And then career wise, I was sort of looking at that. I, um I don't know. I was always like, my dad always told me you can always make money as a welder.
00:07:12
Michael Alm
So in my head, I was like, worst comes to worst. I ended up in a metal shop for a couple of years or worst comes to works.
00:07:17
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:07:18
Michael Alm
I ended up in a wood shop for a couple of years. Like there's way worse things to do. um I would just didn't want to end up in an office. And I had a lot of friends in the graphic design department, um,
00:07:31
Michael Alm
who were being groomed to be in an office environment.
00:07:35
#1 Alm Fan
Mm-hmm.
00:07:35
Michael Alm
Like they were being taught topography typography, not topography, typography. they're taught They're being taught um like all sorts of graphic design skills, but they were also sitting in cubicles with iMacs and and they had assignments in a very similar way that you would get assignment from like, you know, a corporate job.
00:07:57
#1 Alm Fan
Oh my God, murder me now.
00:07:57
Michael Alm
And I was like, you you guys are, yeah, I know you're in the art school, like have fun. um So that that's, sort
00:08:04
#1 Alm Fan
come Come hang out in the courtyard with us dirty kids.
00:08:05
Michael Alm
i know but yeah they they were in the same building, just the next just story up. So they were the clean kids and we were the dark.
00:08:13
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, so they could look down on you. Yeah.
00:08:14
Michael Alm
Yep, they could, they could look outside and be like, oh, Michael looks filthy today.
00:08:19
Mary
What was the market like for sculpture at that time?
00:08:19
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:08:22
Mary
Like, were there careers or jobs?
00:08:23
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, what well, what what year was this, by the way?
00:08:26
Michael Alm
This was 2000. two thousand i graduated 2006. So I started 2002.
00:08:30
#1 Alm Fan
Okay. Okay.
00:08:32
Michael Alm
um And yeah, it was. i don't know if there was a market for sculpture. There's still not really a market for scope. There's never a market for sculpture because but sculpture.
00:08:44
Michael Alm
that we're going to get into this with the career change. Sculpture takes up space and is not useful.
00:08:49
Mary
Yeah.
00:08:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm. Mm-hmm.
00:08:51
Michael Alm
um I mean, it's it's like inspiring and there's... But most people view or most people struggle with a place for sculpture in their home. Like they literally have to dedicate a spot for it.
00:09:04
Michael Alm
So um that's the that's the hardest thing about that career path. um and
00:09:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:09:10
Michael Alm
And so I was looking at other...
00:09:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael, wait, just just for a moment. I never considered that.
00:09:15
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:09:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Not one moment have I considered that that's something that comes along with sculpture being a difficult sell.
00:09:23
Michael Alm
Oh yeah. You'll talk to any sculptor. They'll be like, I just can't, i think I can't find people who have space for it. A painter, a photographer. It's really easy to find a spot on somebody's wall, but like, but sculpture takes up space, but furniture is functional and solves a problem.
00:09:34
#1 Alm Fan
Sure.
00:09:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:09:39
#1 Alm Fan
See, that's what's interesting to me is, is i came at the same problem from the opposite standpoint.
00:09:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ah.
00:09:47
#1 Alm Fan
Like I, once I realized that I wanted to make objects that express the thing or had some beauty or had a stance or something like that, I, I started thinking about myself and as a sculptor, but I could never make sculpture because of its lack of function.
00:10:05
#1 Alm Fan
Like there's nothing because you get done with the piece and then you go, well, where the hell does this live? Like, what do I do with it now? I don't I don't have space for it. My house is like half the size of Paul's, you know, like I got nothing.
00:10:17
#1 Alm Fan
It's an apartment, basically, you know.
00:10:19
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:10:19
#1 Alm Fan
So where does this thing live? Where does it go?
00:10:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where does your womanly bust live?
00:10:22
Michael Alm
I.
00:10:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Don't you have a piece of sculpture?
00:10:24
Michael Alm
two
00:10:25
Mary
Isn't it like a side table?
00:10:26
#1 Alm Fan
I do. It's basically a side table. Like I almost put a top on it too, because I wanted to turn it into a table.
00:10:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's...
00:10:33
#1 Alm Fan
It's tucked into an alcove that wouldn't exist if my house wasn't weird and 150 something years old. You know, you just, you stuff it in corners anyway.
00:10:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right, so...
00:10:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. So, Michael, so you decided that this was a good, like, I'm going to give this a ah shake. Yeah. ah ah Being a sculptor, like a professional artist sculptor.
00:10:49
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:10:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Tell me what that was like.
00:10:54
Michael Alm
ah I'm very confident leaving art school. ah Okay, so this story is pretty wild. um i My favorite part of it is that my...
00:11:08
Michael Alm
Where to start? So my my ex-girlfriend from high school, I hung out with her dad ah right before graduation. He's like, so you studied sculpture, Michael. That's an interesting choice.
00:11:19
Michael Alm
And I'm like, any and he was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:20
Mary
It's a good way to impress a girlfriend's dad.
00:11:21
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, yeah,
00:11:23
Mary
ah
00:11:24
Michael Alm
ah And he was like, ah so what are you to with that degree? And I was like, I'm going to sculpt. Yeah.
00:11:32
#1 Alm Fan
yeah. Hmm.
00:11:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha ha!
00:11:38
Michael Alm
And I don't think he knew what to do with that answer. And he's like, ok okay, okay. So I, where I got started was I started looking at other, like I was saying, you can always get a job as a welder.
00:11:50
Michael Alm
um I started looking at spaces that would hire a ah sculptor or would need somebody who, I'm a firm believer when you're When you want a career path, you need to inject yourself into that space in some capacity, not at the top.
00:12:09
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm. Hmm.
00:12:10
Michael Alm
You can't just start at the top. but But if you start in the lower rung or you're around those people that you want to be, you're
00:12:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
right.
00:12:19
Michael Alm
gonna have the best chance of achieving that so I uh started asking around and I picked a city I literally just picked a city on a map I was living in St. Louis my college was in St. Louis and I was like I think that I don't want to move to New York because New York I'm gonna I'll just fade away in New York there's too many good talented people there uh I was looking at San Francisco, thought San Francisco was really cool. And then I sort of had a hunch that Seattle might be cool um because I ah met a couple of people from there.
00:12:51
Michael Alm
I know knew some people in Portland. um I thought about Portland, too. Anyway, um the mountains got me. I was like, Seattle, really close to the mountains.
00:12:59
#1 Alm Fan
It is beautiful, man.
00:13:00
Michael Alm
It's gorgeous out here.
00:13:01
Mary
I love Seattle.
00:13:02
Michael Alm
And it's just like I was the right choice. And so I was like, OK, so who are sculptors in Seattle? At the time, the hottest sculptor in Seattle was Dale Chihuly.
00:13:13
Michael Alm
um And like the most known, it's just like Dale Chihuly, glass sculptor, makes glass chandeliers, all this crazy stuff. and um And I was like, okay, that's that's something. And then I looked on Craigslist for sculpture applications, applications for sculptors, welders, all that stuff.
00:13:32
Michael Alm
And um carpenters, I think I looked at that too. And ah there was one thing that said we need a ah sculppt a shop manager for a sculpture space. And I was like, I don't think I can do that, but I'll um'll just call, I'll just reach out and meet them.
00:13:46
#1 Alm Fan
You can pretend like you can do it though.
00:13:47
Michael Alm
And then I could pretend like I can do it. So I saw that. I...
Career Transition and Financial Struggles
00:13:53
Michael Alm
started i reached out at the time we were using travel agents because it's 2006. um um my parents had a travel agent and they were like, you need to fly out to Seattle. Like just do a trip out to Seattle before you make this choice to move to a city you've literally never been to.
00:14:10
Michael Alm
And I was like, oh, okay, sure. um And so I planned a trip by myself, 22 years old. And I was like, I'm gonna go out to Seattle. I'm gonna meet this person, talk to them about what it's like to be a sculptor. And I'll try and put my name out there and find some other stuff.
00:14:24
Michael Alm
So talk to the travel agent and get this. travel agent's wife works directly with Dale Chihuly's business partner.
00:14:31
#1 Alm Fan
No shit.
00:14:32
Mary
Oh, so
00:14:32
Michael Alm
In conversation, we're like, Hey, I'm looking to be a sculptor in Seattle, blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:14:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
00:14:36
Michael Alm
blah And, uh, travel agent's wife worked with the, the daughter of Dale Chihuly's long-term business partner. And,
00:14:48
Michael Alm
And he's like, I'll just put you in touch. You guys go have dinner. Um, uh, with not jail, not Dale Chihuly with the, the wife's, uh, friend who works in Seattle business partner.
00:14:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
00:14:57
#1 Alm Fan
The business partner.
00:14:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:00
Michael Alm
Um, and so I went and had, I, you know, the only thing I had scheduled was that, that meeting and that, that, um, So I went, I flew out and got a hotel in a terrible part of town. had no idea.
00:15:15
Michael Alm
She was like, I'm going to pick you up and you should find a different hotel. So she she picked me up, drove me to her place. Beautiful place in an Upper Queen Anne. If you're thinking about Frasier, the view from Frasier's building is where their house was.
00:15:26
Mary
Oh.
00:15:32
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, Jesus.
00:15:34
Michael Alm
And i I had, I was like, I just sat, I had dinner with these people. and And then her dad, who's Dale Chihuly's business partner, had just flown back from ah from ah from China.
00:15:50
Michael Alm
They were doing a show ah and Hong Kong. And he just flew back and he came in super grumpy, totally jet lagged, sat down, had dinner,
00:16:01
Michael Alm
maybe said four words to me and then and then went up and went to bed and then elise called me the next day and she's like hey my dad likes you would you be interested in interviewing i was like what are you talking about so anyway no i got a job i got a job uh
00:16:23
#1 Alm Fan
Damn.
00:16:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With Chihuly glass?
00:16:25
Michael Alm
Yeah, I interviewed three times during that trip, and they were looking for a person to ah to be in mock-up, which is the install of the chandeliers. Not glassblowing, but building the manually building the chandeliers.
00:16:36
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:16:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit, Michael.
00:16:39
Michael Alm
And so...
00:16:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
for the For those that, wait, just just just a moment.
00:16:42
#1 Alm Fan
This motherfucker can do anything.
00:16:42
Michael Alm
ah
00:16:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
For those who don't know Dale Chihuly, right? I mean, um it's the one of the few sculptors I know because it's so mind-blowing. The MFA in Boston, I think, has a 60, 80-foot piece of his that goes from like the floor to like three stories up.
00:17:01
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
00:17:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's like these tendrils of colored glass coming out in every direction. They are mind-bendingly creative, right? The color, the form, the size, the scale.
00:17:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, I mean, for those that don't know, if for any listener doesn't know Chihuly glass, you should probably Google it. You'll you'll be happy you did. Anyway, please continue, Michael.
00:17:23
#1 Alm Fan
makes Makes one hell of a hot sauce too.
00:17:23
Mary
Wait, can I ask one question?
00:17:26
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
00:17:27
Mary
Did you did you ever break any pieces?
00:17:30
Michael Alm
That's the number one question we get. And yes, yeah, I think all of us do break, like, but usually it's like the tips off of what you're describing, Paul, is um like the chandelier parts are long blown pieces of glass and they have really delicate tips on the end. That's like you call them tendrils.
00:17:52
Michael Alm
So those like sparkle in the light and everything like that, but they also knock into each other while you're en assembling them.
00:17:57
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:17:57
Michael Alm
So a lot of times you'll chip, chip a tip off, but that's like one little element in a massive build.
00:17:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right.
00:18:03
Michael Alm
So we, we would send out extra parts. um The shipping is its own massive story about how they ship those parts across the world.
00:18:09
Mary
Oh yeah.
00:18:13
Michael Alm
They a whole shipping department and it's fascinating, basically like egg crates where they, they separate everything into these, these dividers. And it's amazing that it, that it works at all. um But typically we don't,
00:18:24
Michael Alm
break the really expensive stuff, which is the C forms, where they're like sets that are blown together and made to like integrate with each other. And they have specific ways that they go together. So if you break one of those parts, it's bad news. I never broke one of those.
00:18:40
Michael Alm
um I only broke chandelier parts while I was there. So, yeah.
00:18:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Michael, how long did you work for them? And how was it?
00:18:48
Michael Alm
A year?
00:18:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And and what made you leave to the next chapter of your career?
00:18:52
Michael Alm
I got fired. um
00:18:54
#1 Alm Fan
That'll do it.
00:18:54
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:18:58
Michael Alm
I worked there for a year and a half, Paul. And um i so I loved and hated it. um it was It was spectacular.
00:19:04
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:19:07
Michael Alm
And it was intense. And it was some of the biggest egos, both on the client side and internally, that I've ever interacted with. And I had no foundation as a 22-year-old of what a normal work environment should be.
00:19:21
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, how to navigate that is hard, man.
00:19:23
Michael Alm
And it was not. And I didn't know what my like, I didn't know where I stood in the pecking order. My confidence in my 20s got the best of me in certain ways. and um And then shifting um politics inside of the the whole organization sort of pitted one team of people against another. And I was on the losing team. So it was, it was, I don't want to talk trash about it because the the experience was so formative for me and so spectacularly full of opportunity and excitement and crazy stuff that it's like exactly what I was looking for.
00:20:05
Michael Alm
But if they didn't fire me, I would have burnt out.
00:20:08
Michael Alm
Um,
00:20:08
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:20:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:20:09
Michael Alm
I spent a year and a half traveling ah two weeks out of every month and pretty much not meeting anybody in the city of Seattle because I was new to the city.
00:20:20
Michael Alm
I knew nobody in Seattle. I didn't meet another artist that in that year and a half. I had no, my career didn't grow at all in the sense of like what I wanted, which was to be a studio artist.
00:20:34
Michael Alm
And so that, ah that was a, It was amazing. And it was, ah it was insane. It was absolutely insane.
00:20:42
#1 Alm Fan
Well, that's, that's really, I think, important insight to anybody listening who is kind of at that phase where maybe they've gone to school or they've been a serious hobbyist for a while. And they're thinking like, I want to transition. I want a career pivot into woodworking.
00:20:59
#1 Alm Fan
want to find somebody who's really good. Somebody I look up to somebody who's successful and work under them. Sometimes, That's a really difficult and unhealthy work environment because those egos are fucking massive.
00:21:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:21:12
#1 Alm Fan
And it's not just in the art world.
00:21:13
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:21:13
#1 Alm Fan
It's in the woodworking world, too. Like there are people who will take advantage of you and there are people who will grind you down so that you think that you are only successful in this field because you work for them.
00:21:27
#1 Alm Fan
And then you have to spend like the the the double side of that coin is you learn a lot from those people because they're clearly very good at what they do.
00:21:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
00:21:37
#1 Alm Fan
But then you spend a lot of years kind of recuperating from that relationship and that experience.
00:21:42
Michael Alm
Absolutely. I had like, there were, there are certain things that for about 10 years, I would like set me off from working there, um which is, wild which is wild.
00:21:51
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:21:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:21:52
Michael Alm
And, ah you know, I held grudges for a little while of certain people that treated me like in hindsight, like thinking back, I'm like, oh, that was a really awful thing to say ah to a 22 year old art installer.
00:22:01
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:22:05
Michael Alm
But, um you know, ultimately it was, it was no, no
00:22:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
00:22:09
Mary
Name them right now.
00:22:10
#1 Alm Fan
Well, well, I.
00:22:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, honestly, when you're in the big leagues, yeah like anything can happen.
00:22:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah There's no protection. You're in the big leagues now, right?
00:22:16
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:22:18
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:22:19
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:22:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The stage is huge.
00:22:20
Michael Alm
And I, oh God.
00:22:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The money's even huger. You're, you're, you know, you're being fed to the wolves and you asked for it.
00:22:25
#1 Alm Fan
Mm hmm.
00:22:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's like, Hmm.
00:22:27
Michael Alm
Yeah. One of those, yeah. I mean, yeah, I was hanging million dollar pieces of sculptures in people's private homes um above their stairwell with scaffolding up and their art collections were ah insane.
00:22:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:22:41
#1 Alm Fan
Jesus.
00:22:44
Michael Alm
I mean, the things that I saw, the homes that I saw alone were just jaw dropping.
00:22:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um my god.
00:22:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow.
00:22:52
Michael Alm
um
00:22:53
#1 Alm Fan
I also, i do have to say what you said earlier that I was in my early twenties and my confidence got the best of me is something that
00:22:53
Michael Alm
Spectacular.
Gallery Challenges and Selling Art
00:23:02
#1 Alm Fan
I'm going to steal.
00:23:03
#1 Alm Fan
Cause that's the most polite way to say that I was an arrogant prick as a 22 year old. And I fucking love that. Yeah.
00:23:09
Mary
Because also, same.
00:23:10
#1 Alm Fan
Because also, same, like, you know?
00:23:12
Michael Alm
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:12
#1 Alm Fan
like
00:23:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So Michael, how did you, and for those who haven't figured out today's episode, ah we decided not to leave with a question, but to leave with Michael's intro. um for those who haven't figured it out, today's episode is about pivoting, like career choices, a career path.
00:23:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And what are the signs that maybe that's not going to work the way I thought it was? Or what's what are the signs that you're reading? What should you pivot to? What are we reading and using Michael's example, as a case study, in essence, so Michael, what did you where did you go after that?
00:23:50
Michael Alm
ah That was really interesting. So I got fired. I went to my favorite bar ah that my cat is named after, the Sloop Tavern.
00:23:59
Mary
Sloop?
00:24:00
Michael Alm
And I took all of my business cards that had been freshly printed and threw them out on the bar table.
00:24:00
Mary
Oh.
00:24:05
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, you went in a different direction there, huh?
00:24:06
Mary
Oh.
00:24:07
Michael Alm
And they we just shredded them and drank a lot of beer. And...
00:24:10
#1 Alm Fan
Okay, all right, all right.
00:24:10
Mary
ah
00:24:11
Michael Alm
And then i had i had three other colleagues that had been fired ah within ah either before or after me. I can't remember quite.
00:24:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:24:21
Michael Alm
I know some were before, some were after. Got fired on my team that were just like, they were just clearing people out. And it was awful. And we sat together and we all realized that we were like really happy.
00:24:33
Michael Alm
um And like, that we wait a second, all of this weight, all of this drama, all of this stuff, that like all this infighting between people, was gone. And then these, these precious clients that were so, so some of them were great.
00:24:47
Michael Alm
Some of them were challenging. Uh, those were also gone and we were like, oh, okay.
00:24:51
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:24:52
Michael Alm
So we can, and i had spent a year and a half, uh, not spending a dime because I was on a per diem every time I traveled. And I was, uh, I was making okay money.
00:25:01
#1 Alm Fan
Hell yeah.
00:25:04
Michael Alm
I mean, pretty decent for, you you know, uh, a fresh sculptor from, I don't know, whatever. Um, I was making, I was doing fine. Like it was enough to live off of and save. And so, um, I did the math and I was like, I think I have a year of runway.
00:25:21
Michael Alm
i think I could, I think I could live cheap, live real cheap. I was paying $437.50 month ah for my ah apartment. um i
00:25:32
#1 Alm Fan
Sorry?
00:25:32
Michael Alm
and four hundred and thirty seven dollars and fifty cents
00:25:35
#1 Alm Fan
No, I heard what you said. I just can't remember a time ever in which a living expenditure was that low.
00:25:39
Michael Alm
i was
00:25:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Eric, when i when I shared a house in grad school,
00:25:42
Michael Alm
i was shit
00:25:43
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, well, you graduated college in 1972, so shut the fuck up
00:25:43
Michael Alm
yeah i'll go ahead
00:25:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
we we paid $300 each, bitch. Continue, Michael, please.
00:25:54
Michael Alm
ah I was living in a pretty crappy place, but it was great in a lot of ways. So I decided to rent my first studio space, ah which was 100 square feet for 300 bucks a month.
00:26:09
Michael Alm
um Maybe it 200 square feet for 300 bucks a month. It was 300 bucks a month. It was a small space, but it was in like an artist community, ah you know, shared shop, kind of like yours, Eric, but a lot smaller.
00:26:17
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:26:21
Michael Alm
um
00:26:22
#1 Alm Fan
and what What was your primary medium at that point?
00:26:22
Michael Alm
And Mary.
00:26:25
Michael Alm
Uh, I didn't know. That's a really good question.
00:26:27
#1 Alm Fan
Okay.
00:26:27
Michael Alm
I, I was figuring things out. I was like, I didn't have any tools. So what do you do?
00:26:31
#1 Alm Fan
Sure, sure.
00:26:33
Michael Alm
That was that thing. I was like, so having so much fun in art school and then they take all the tools away and you're like,
00:26:38
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, and then you get into the real world and you go, shit.
00:26:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a
00:26:41
Michael Alm
Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up ah I did a lot I did some so work with like drawing and spray painting and ah ink. It was like mixed media.
00:26:51
Michael Alm
It was like a lot of stuff I was finding at Goodwill. I was like cutting up, ah you know, fabric from Goodwill and ah glue in it. I was like, you could tell i was like desperately trying to make something.
00:27:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael, Michael, what were you thinking? What was the plan, man? Like, that so so sounds so scary.
00:27:06
#1 Alm Fan
There is no plan. There is just just just chaotic do.
00:27:07
Mary
when you're When you're that young.
00:27:09
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:27:11
#1 Alm Fan
That's all there is.
00:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Really?
00:27:12
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:27:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There was no plan?
00:27:12
Mary
Yeah.
00:27:14
Michael Alm
There was a year, I had a year of runway where I was going to become an artist. I was going to get a studio. i was going to live cheap. And it was ah wacky year. It was so wild.
00:27:26
Michael Alm
It was so fun.
00:27:27
#1 Alm Fan
And what what what year is this now?
00:27:29
Michael Alm
This would have been, proud oh well, it's, ah I know what year it is because it was 2007 leading into
00:27:36
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, great year to be self-employed.
00:27:37
Michael Alm
Great, great year to be self-employed and then looking for a job on the backside of it. Um, it's,
00:27:44
#1 Alm Fan
Okay. So you you go through that year. What happens when the recession hits? Like what, how does things, how do things pivot?
00:27:50
Michael Alm
um They pivot quickly. i ran out of money before a year, I'll tell you that much.
00:27:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:27:55
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm. Hmm.
00:27:56
Michael Alm
um And it got real scary for ah couple months there um where I was like, do I get rid of the studio? No, the studio is everything that I like. Like I would rather get rid of my apartment than my studio.
00:28:06
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:28:08
Michael Alm
And, um, and I was collecting tools off of Craigslist at the time. And, um, I'd met a bunch of artists because I had a year. So I just went to every art show I could.
00:28:17
#1 Alm Fan
Hell yeah.
00:28:17
Michael Alm
um I was sleeping very weird. I was, uh, I, cause parking was free after, after five downtown or after seven or something like that.
00:28:29
Michael Alm
I would go to the studio at that time. And then I would stay up all night and I would make work until about three or four o'clock in the morning.
00:28:34
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:28:34
Mary
Hmm.
00:28:38
Mary
Wow.
00:28:38
Michael Alm
And on a couple occasions, I was stopped by the cops thinking that I was breaking into my own car.
00:28:43
#1 Alm Fan
Really?
00:28:43
Mary
Oh my god!
00:28:44
Michael Alm
Yeah, it was downtown Seattle and it hadn't quite gone through its resurgence yet.
00:28:46
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:28:51
Michael Alm
um And so it was ah it was pretty funky. I was was watching. Yeah, I was just like, as it was it was good. It was unhealthy in a lot of ways because I wasn't very regimented.
00:29:03
Michael Alm
I didn't have a schedule. I was like, I'm just going to do this. I'm going to go over here. It's a big difference between me now and that back then.
00:29:07
#1 Alm Fan
Did you... So I remember my first year running the business when I was straight out of school and it failed miserably. I got maybe about 18 months and the thing like you just kind of hit on it. the The thing I think I struggled with the most was any kind of direction and regimented schedule and like, why am I doing this?
00:29:29
#1 Alm Fan
I would just make shit and think like, well, if it's there, then I can bring it to a show. I can sell it And what I found is eventually that just wore on me a lot.
00:29:40
#1 Alm Fan
Like it became emotionally very heavy just to like do a thing and not know if I was going to be able to pay for the thing when it was done.
00:29:48
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:29:49
#1 Alm Fan
Did you feel that same kind of experience in that year when you were trying to just like figure it out or was it just you were just building a portfolio or what?
00:29:53
Michael Alm
Oh, oh, absolutely. No, I was so lost. Like looking back at it, I was like, I, you know, if I was to like plan a year, like I didn't, I didn't know to plan it out.
00:30:01
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:30:07
Michael Alm
I was like, i just, I just was like, oh, if I'm given a year, that's plenty of time to like make, make things happen, make connections and build a resume, build a, you know, build something. And it was just really chaotic.
00:30:21
Michael Alm
I made some cool stuff, but it wasn't, oh, I made,
00:30:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you... Yeah, I was going to ask, did you build something? Did you make things that...
00:30:27
Michael Alm
Yeah, I did a whole series of drawings of chickens. I remember that where I like tore hand tore out of paper that I'd spray painted all the feathers on them and glued them on by hand.
00:30:37
Mary
Oh, that's so cool.
00:30:39
#1 Alm Fan
that's That's a lot of art school shit right there.
00:30:39
Michael Alm
um So they were like, yes.
00:30:41
#1 Alm Fan
I never would have thought to do that.
00:30:43
Michael Alm
It was like 2D and 3D and I built the frames myself and um which is which is fine.
00:30:43
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:49
Michael Alm
And then I started getting into faux taxidermy. I did like sort of ah glued faux onto, ah on
Shift to Social Media
00:31:00
Michael Alm
like I was making my own mannequins, taxidermy mannequins.
00:31:03
Michael Alm
So I was doing like super sculpy baked in an oven with like wire frames and armatures and then gluing fur onto them with taxidermy eyes and stuff.
00:31:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
00:31:13
Michael Alm
um Yeah, i was it was a wild.
00:31:15
#1 Alm Fan
That is wild. so So the that period between, what did you say this was, 2007, 2008?
00:31:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So...
00:31:25
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:31:25
#1 Alm Fan
The period, let's let's fast forward a little bit. um
00:31:28
Michael Alm
Okay.
00:31:30
#1 Alm Fan
Between that year and the year that you started YouTube, what was what was what was the arc?
00:31:35
Michael Alm
Oh, wow.
00:31:37
#1 Alm Fan
Like what year did you start YouTube?
00:31:39
Michael Alm
I started YouTube 2017.
00:31:41
#1 Alm Fan
twenty seventeen so we got ten years
00:31:43
Michael Alm
10 years. Yeah.
00:31:44
#1 Alm Fan
Are you self-employed this whole time? Are you bouncing around from job to job?
00:31:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, what'd you do to pay the bills?
00:31:48
#1 Alm Fan
Are you are you exploring different media? Are you in cabinet shops? What?
00:31:52
Michael Alm
So true.
00:31:52
Mary
I know you made those six sculptures, animal sculptures at one point.
00:31:55
Michael Alm
Somewhere in there. Yeah. Thanks. Uh, so I was bouncing around jobs. I, uh, was able to get a job out of, out of, uh, 2008 into during 2008 or maybe I got a job doing um art handling, art moving, ah which is a job that a lot of artists end up getting because they have flexible hours and there are these independent agencies that move art around. So they know how to package ship a crate.
00:32:28
Michael Alm
um They know how to hang artwork really quickly. They know how to do like a full salon style hang. so $12 an hour, twelve dollars an hour I got that job and I was moving million dollar pieces of artwork.
00:32:41
#1 Alm Fan
Jesus.
00:32:41
Michael Alm
And I was like, this is, this is wacky.
00:32:41
Mary
Wow.
00:32:45
Michael Alm
Um, and it was a good job cause it trained me. So from there I went to museums from museums. I went to a private company that made custom frames. I think I've told you about that.
00:32:56
Michael Alm
That's where I learned wood carving and some other really crazy art forms like water gilding, like gold leaf and stuff.
00:32:56
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:33:03
Michael Alm
And, uh, And I was always looking for like a little side hustle, but not, I never, I've never had a full-time job except for Chihuly.
00:33:15
Michael Alm
Um,
00:33:15
#1 Alm Fan
So it was always part-time jobs supplemented with your own work and trying to build a portfolio and trying to sell to clients.
00:33:23
Michael Alm
yes.
00:33:24
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:33:24
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:33:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
did you have Did you get any traction?
00:33:24
Michael Alm
And then I was showing art.
00:33:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Did you get any traction in galleries and selling your work? like How was that going?
00:33:31
Michael Alm
Yeah, I mean, I was better at getting galleries to show my work than I was at selling the work.
00:33:39
#1 Alm Fan
Sure.
00:33:39
Michael Alm
I think, yeah, and that's that's, it's a challenging spot to be in when you're making cool stuff. But galleries don't really tell you how much to sell your stuff for.
00:33:50
Michael Alm
Some do, but most don't. And most galleries take 50 to Some take 40%. some take forty
00:33:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Right. Yeah.
00:34:00
Michael Alm
If you're lucky. So when you're doing the math on what to sell and for how much you have to basically double what you need and that makes your stuff expensive pretty quick.
00:34:09
#1 Alm Fan
Mm-hmm.
00:34:13
Michael Alm
And if you don't find the right pocket, the right collectors, It's really hard to sustain yourself. And, you know, your collectors only have so much space. We go back to the problem with sculptures. So if you find a collector, they buy three pieces. They're like, that's all the space I have for your sculptures, Michael.
00:34:33
Michael Alm
um i had a couple people that bought more than one, but it was mostly like one-offs.
00:34:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So Michael, my my understanding is, and and tell me if this is wrong, is the art world has like an in crowd and then like everyone else. And like the in crowd has all the connections. They know all the people. We're insiders.
00:34:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We know everyone. Oh, so-and-so at the gallery told me I could do this. And like, they're all fucking connected through these like hoity-toity galleries and art schools. And like, I've seen papers on the issue, like ah scientific papers have shown That if you study it, like almost like a network analysis, that people in the network tend to do much better than people out of the network. First of all, from your perspective, does is does that exist real world? And were you on the in or the out?
00:35:21
Michael Alm
uh, it's, there's a lot to unpack there, but the, I think maybe like, i you know, i'm not in the New York arts and I do think there's some of that too. There's definitely like collectors and galleries that are very, very coveted and certain galleries that, that do have a massive collector base are ultimately, and I'm discovering this after I'm, uh, after I'm kind of out, uh,
00:35:48
Michael Alm
Art is so much more about marketing than I ever realized and telling your story and telling like in in believing your I mean, believing your story or like living your story. um I think that the thing that I didn't understand and why I kind of had moderate success is that that I wasn't the best self promoter and I wasn't the best at like.
00:36:13
Michael Alm
realizing I didn't realize that this story is king in everything and that if you don't tell a good story about the work that you're making, you can't market it. And so no matter how good of a gallery you're working with, they can't market it. So art becomes so much more about writing the deeper you get into it, ah then it does become about making the work.
00:36:36
Michael Alm
So you need to be able to communicate the the thing that makes your work important. And if you can't do that, you either need to find somebody who can, or you will always sort of sit on the fringe
YouTube Journey and Community
00:36:53
Michael Alm
of success.
00:36:54
Michael Alm
You might have a couple successful pieces, but if people can't like lock on to, ah okay, here here's a good woodworker thing.
00:37:02
#1 Alm Fan
No, don't that's that's that's the episode. It's been great. It's been real.
00:37:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
michael that like Michael, I am literally hanging on your every word.
00:37:05
#1 Alm Fan
We're going to shut it down right there. Oh, man.
00:37:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Continue.
00:37:12
Michael Alm
So there's this woodworker trend. If you go on TikTok or something like that, and it's celebrities talking about the wood that was chosen for the piece of furniture.
00:37:21
#1 Alm Fan
oh man
00:37:23
Michael Alm
So they're like...
00:37:23
Mary
Oh my god, like in Architectural Digest?
00:37:26
Michael Alm
Yeah, yeah, this is this ah this tiny dining table was made from sunken beams that were pulled up, dredged up by the Titanic.
00:37:30
Mary
Yep.
00:37:33
#1 Alm Fan
Uh-huh. Uh...
00:37:35
Michael Alm
And it was reassembled by a woodworker with one arm who nailed it together with his feet.
00:37:35
Mary
Yep.
00:37:36
Mary
I've seen these, yeah.
00:37:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ha ha ha ha
00:37:43
#1 Alm Fan
oh
00:37:43
Michael Alm
You know. This is the stuff that sells.
00:37:47
#1 Alm Fan
It's true. i I remember reading an article in a magazine. I don't remember what magazine it was, but the the guy who had the feature done on him was ah a TV star of some kind. I had no idea who he was. He was on some show.
00:38:03
#1 Alm Fan
Um, and they made a big deal about how, like, he's not just an actor. He's also a woodworker and his work. I mean, he could be a very nice guy. i don't want to shit on him, but his work was exceptionally mediocre.
00:38:16
#1 Alm Fan
But the whole article was just him being like, well, you see this Clarell Walnut slab was from this field in this Southern region of California. And this is why, and I'm like, yeah, it's nice because you spent $20,000 on that fucking slab. That's why it's a nice fucking table dog.
00:38:33
#1 Alm Fan
But it's all just waxing poetic about the material where it's from painting a pretty picture so that a client gets ah seduced by the story.
00:38:43
Michael Alm
It's good marketing. I mean, ah you know, ultimately, if you want to survive in any market, you've got to be able to sell stuff, right? Like, or if you want to survive...
00:38:55
Michael Alm
ah making things, you have to sell things. And I, yeah, I'm learning a lot more about that. I mean, well, I guess you don't have to, because you could just make YouTube videos.
00:39:07
#1 Alm Fan
Okay. All right.
00:39:07
Mary
Ha ha ha ha.
00:39:07
#1 Alm Fan
Well, pause, pause before we get there.
00:39:09
Michael Alm
but
00:39:10
#1 Alm Fan
Did you find success selling objects? Did you learn how to tell the story? And whether successful or not, what
00:39:23
#1 Alm Fan
what were the factors that led up to you deciding to start a YouTube channel?
00:39:30
Michael Alm
So I never made enough money making sculptures to sustain myself ever. um
00:39:37
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:39:38
Michael Alm
And I had a lot of really, i had some pretty big galleries um ah in Seattle and San Francisco that I was showing in and starting to get notoriety and um some of my pieces like I'm still every once while one will go off to a gallery or a museum.
00:39:57
Michael Alm
um I just showed in Fuller Craft in Boston um or outside of Boston and that's ah That's all the like, but it just never paid. like that it just never and never i There was no way to make it sustainable. So it was always working a day job, which was moving artwork.
00:40:15
Michael Alm
So was hanging out in museums with other artists. you know I was building art for artists in the in the shop. So one thing that people don't know is if you work in a museum, there's a position called a preparator.
00:40:29
Michael Alm
And you'll physically build the artwork that the artist has been brought in to show. Or you'll build the display for the artwork. or I mean, I physically built some people's art.
00:40:39
Michael Alm
um And was the reason why it stood up at all. Because these were conceptual artists who had come out of the schools that Paul was talking about. And they ah they were...
00:40:53
Michael Alm
They didn't know how to make things, but they had a really good collector base, a lot of people, a lot of energy behind them and a lot of marketing behind them. So they would come up with the concept and you would you would do everything in your power to make sure it was successful.
00:41:09
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:41:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Holy shit.
00:41:10
#1 Alm Fan
this this This is why people hate the art world, Michael.
00:41:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:41:15
Michael Alm
I don't hate the art or world for the record, but what I struggled with was I'm, um, the financial side of the artwork doesn't make a lot. Art world doesn't make a lot sense unless you're really high up or you have somebody anchoring you. So like, um, imagine this, Eric, you build 10 pieces of furniture on spec
00:41:39
#1 Alm Fan
Chair?
00:41:39
Michael Alm
and you deliver them to a space that's going to sell them and you're going to get half the profits of that and you're going to show it for one month and after that they get returned to you and you spend a whole year building all of that work
00:41:47
#1 Alm Fan
chair
00:41:59
Michael Alm
to gamble on one month of promotion that is technically in the hands of the gallery, but your year depends on it.
00:42:11
Michael Alm
So you need to just everything you got, everybody you know, you got to talk to about and sell it.
00:42:16
#1 Alm Fan
yeah
00:42:19
Michael Alm
Like the anxiety of doing that over and over and over again
00:42:24
#1 Alm Fan
and And correct me if this is different in the art world versus in the furniture world, but when I show a piece in a gallery, even if that client doesn't buy that piece at that gallery, if they get my contact information from the gallery, the gallery is still commissioned for whatever that client pays me.
00:42:44
Michael Alm
Yep.
00:42:45
#1 Alm Fan
So even even if they don't buy the thing that the gallery showing, guess what?
00:42:45
Michael Alm
That's that.
00:42:50
#1 Alm Fan
I'm still out 40% to 60%. Really?
00:42:53
Michael Alm
Sometimes it's even worse and these are pretty awful deals, but sometimes they have regional ownership of your work. So if they sell any piece of yours regionally or you sell your piece regionally.
00:43:01
#1 Alm Fan
really
00:43:06
Michael Alm
So if I had a regional gallery in Seattle, I would have to pay that gallery a percentage, even if they were not involved in the sale.
00:43:15
#1 Alm Fan
It's a fucking scam.
00:43:16
Mary
That sounds so shitty.
00:43:17
Michael Alm
But I'm so like, i now it sounds like I really hate galleries.
00:43:21
Mary
Hmm.
00:43:22
Michael Alm
Um, But it's not really that simple. It's not that cut and dry. They have a limited client base. They have to pay a lot usually to have prime real estate.
00:43:32
#1 Alm Fan
Of course. Yeah.
00:43:33
Michael Alm
And they ah they do front you the the ability to show your work for a month and they put their promotional weight behind you. Like it's not as like, I'm really close friends with with gallery owners here in Seattle. And they're some of my favorite people.
00:43:51
Michael Alm
The system is just really, it's hard for both the gallery owner and the artist, and it doesn't work great. um And enter Instagram.
00:44:02
#1 Alm Fan
I was about to do the exact same shift from the gallery to social media as a marketing platform. So what what year is this that you get into social media and what's what's your thinking behind it when you do?
00:44:16
Michael Alm
I was on Instagram pretty early, but I didn't really actually promote my work on it until like, I want to say 2014, 2015, something like that.
00:44:24
#1 Alm Fan
That's still pretty early.
00:44:26
Mary
Which account did you start first?
00:44:26
Michael Alm
Did it start?
00:44:27
Mary
Was it the sculpture one or?
00:44:28
Michael Alm
I started a personal account that is now locked.
00:44:31
Mary
Okay.
00:44:32
Michael Alm
um Or you you have to you know know me to get invited.
00:44:33
Mary
Okay.
00:44:36
#1 Alm Fan
Omni fans, I believe it's called.
00:44:38
Michael Alm
Yes, it's OnlyFans.
00:44:41
Michael Alm
ah But I did, I separated out ah my art account, which I still have a separate art account, and the Almfab account, which started when I started it as a furniture company or a woodworker for hire company.
00:44:56
Michael Alm
um So, yeah, that was ah that was probably, don't 2015 2016 or fifteen or twenty sixteen or so
00:45:04
#1 Alm Fan
and And from the beginning, um from the studio ah artist perspective, from the marketing perspective, you had a separate account, but you were still using that as a promotional tool to at least have an online portfolio? 100%.
00:45:20
Michael Alm
Absolutely. Yeah. And it became really apparent quickly when I'd be at dinner parties and people would not want to look at my website. They'd be like, what's your Instagram? I think that's the way it is now too.
00:45:30
Michael Alm
Like, I mean, it that hadn't stopped.
00:45:31
#1 Alm Fan
hundred percent
00:45:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
00:45:31
Mary
yeah
00:45:33
Michael Alm
And once you see that shift, I think the best, some of the best insights I get is like family dinners or meeting new people, like any like weddings and stuff.
00:45:43
Michael Alm
When people sit down and they're like, you know, how to find you or how they look you up. Like I i watch that like a hawk. Like, how are you... How are you finding my channel? How are you ah like one thing that I ah heard at a wedding party somewhat recently was like ah someone was talking about their DIY stuff in their house. And they were saying they were saying, I searched TikTok for like how to do plumbing.
00:46:08
Michael Alm
And I'm like, whoa, that used to always be YouTube, always YouTube.
00:46:10
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:46:12
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:46:14
Michael Alm
And now people are starting to say, oh, no, no, I get all my info on TikTok.
00:46:17
Mary
yeah gen z and gen alpha um it's there have been a lot of studies that show that they search that yeah tiktok over google like so much more and it it is terrifying because it's not accurate or it's often not accurate but it is what they're used to
00:46:18
Michael Alm
That's an interesting ship.
00:46:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's terrifying. Mary, that's terrifying.
00:46:29
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:46:29
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:46:33
#1 Alm Fan
and That's fine. I'll get old and irrelevant at some point. It sounds like that's the transition.
00:46:39
Michael Alm
I mean, the nice thing is our audience is kind of aging with us, right?
00:46:42
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:46:42
Michael Alm
You know?
00:46:45
#1 Alm Fan
Okay, so you get on Instagram, you start doing your thing there, you open Fab as a furniture manufacturing, as ah as a furniture for hire.
00:46:55
Michael Alm
yeah
00:46:57
#1 Alm Fan
What's the situation?
00:46:57
Michael Alm
Yeah. So I started OmFav because i I sort of accidentally quit my job. I was working at a frame shop and I had, it wasn't the employer, but it was someone that they hired to manage me and we did not get along very well.
00:47:14
Michael Alm
um Mostly ah walked in one day and she was moving my tools to a different area of the shop without consulting me first.
00:47:21
Mary
Mmm, can't do that.
00:47:22
Michael Alm
And I had ah and i had an a very important ah client installed that morning. And none of my tools were where they were. and and And she blamed it on me that I was late to this client's thing. And I just was like, I quit.
00:47:38
Michael Alm
I'm not doing this. And I'd never...
00:47:40
#1 Alm Fan
that doesn't That doesn't sound accidental, Michael. That sounds like you just quit, man.
00:47:45
Michael Alm
it Yeah, it was it was it was building. you know that You have those moments where it's like it builds so much inside that you're like, I i can't.
00:47:50
#1 Alm Fan
Sure, your confidence got the best of you. I get it.
00:47:53
Michael Alm
Yeah, it's happening.
00:47:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i
00:47:53
#1 Alm Fan
Ha ha ha ha
00:47:55
Michael Alm
starting and Starting to see a trend here.
00:48:00
Mary
That's such a satisfying, I wish I've had that moment of just like pure rage quitting and just be like, I can't do it anymore.
00:48:05
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, you want you want the fuck you, fuck you, you're cool.
00:48:07
Mary
Yep.
00:48:07
Michael Alm
who ah Yeah.
00:48:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Michael, what was the, is it was there a moment when you're like, fuck this, I'm going to try something new, I'm going to pivot? was it Was there a singular moment or was it very gradual?
00:48:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, like, a like, was it attrition?
00:48:21
Michael Alm
I mean, when that...
00:48:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, like when you were thinking like enough of the studio and galleries, I've tried and I've tried and I've tried. Like, was this ah a gradual attrition of your will to do that? Or was it like a moment in time that you're like, no, no more.
00:48:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
There's a better way.
00:48:38
Michael Alm
No, I still had a lot of romance for it all the way up until making YouTube videos. I think what ended up happening is that, and I still love it. I still love an art show. I love ah hanging out with the artists at an art show. There's something really cool about building a show together and having people come see your work in a really um engaging, personal way and going to see other other friends work and seeing how they progress as an artist. Like, still love it. I still go to art shows. I still every once while do an art show.
00:49:07
Michael Alm
But I think as the YouTube started to, grow, I was, I was like, I'm not sure I need this. i don't need this stress on, on me to make this work. And I definitely don't need the stress of promoting myself to galleries. That was really hard for me in general.
00:49:26
Michael Alm
Um,
00:49:26
#1 Alm Fan
So you were doing all of that in the early days of building the YouTube.
00:49:31
Michael Alm
Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:49:32
Michael Alm
i My last big my last solo show is 2019.
00:49:32
Mary
Wow.
00:49:33
#1 Alm Fan
God damn, brother.
00:49:36
Michael Alm
And I painted every single mammal in Washington State in watercolor.
00:49:41
Mary
Wow, that's so cool.
00:49:41
Michael Alm
um say and it I did did 141 paintings um for an art show. And I was doing that while doing YouTube. I was like I was doing like six things at once.
00:49:52
#1 Alm Fan
And and what's your what's your cadence on YouTube at this point?
00:49:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Dude.
00:49:55
#1 Alm Fan
Is this like when that was happening in 2019? Are you doing a video a week? Are you doing a video a month? What?
00:50:01
Michael Alm
I was probably doing, i was probably doing more than I am now. i was probably doing two videos a month.
00:50:08
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
00:50:09
Michael Alm
Um, but I may have taken it. I probably took a break for the mammals of Washington.
00:50:13
#1 Alm Fan
and Okay.
00:50:14
Michael Alm
Uh, yeah.
00:50:14
#1 Alm Fan
Okay. So, so the, the transition to YouTube sounds like it was a slow build.
00:50:15
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
00:50:22
#1 Alm Fan
And at some point you kind of reached critical mass and you thought either i don't need this other stress or I'm going to take a risk and put all my eggs in this basket.
00:50:33
#1 Alm Fan
What was that?
00:50:33
Michael Alm
it, it was not a clear decision.
00:50:33
#1 Alm Fan
What was that moment? Like, what was that decision?
00:50:37
Michael Alm
Like when people ask, like a lot of times people are like, I quit my day job and went to YouTube but on this day and it was awesome. Um, but I didn't, I didn't really do that. I was just like gradually weeding out clients because I've never had a proper job.
00:50:54
Michael Alm
So I don't really, i didn't have to tell, I mean, ah All my jobs are part-time and I kind of just eased into YouTube being full-time.
00:51:04
Michael Alm
So it was it was a weird, it was like a, it was a gradual change and ah COVID kind of pushed the push me over the the edge.
00:51:13
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, interesting.
00:51:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
hmm hmm hmm
00:51:14
Michael Alm
Because my clients my clients kind of disappeared or they were afraid to have a carpenter in their house.
00:51:14
#1 Alm Fan
Okay.
00:51:18
Michael Alm
And um you know and so i was just like, well, ah I mean, everybody's watching YouTube right now.
00:51:26
Michael Alm
So
00:51:26
#1 Alm Fan
Sure.
00:51:26
Mary
true.
00:51:27
Michael Alm
I put, I poured everything into that at that moment, 2020, 2021. I was, that was, I was working so much just late into the night, every night, making videos, making cool projects. And i almost burned myself out.
00:51:42
Michael Alm
Those, those.
00:51:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael, it sounds like you've been working hard for a long, long, long time.
00:51:42
#1 Alm Fan
yeah
00:51:43
Mary
When did you?
00:51:49
Michael Alm
I, ah yeah, I don't know.
00:51:51
#1 Alm Fan
He's got a degree in sculpture.
00:51:51
Michael Alm
ah
00:51:52
#1 Alm Fan
There's no not working hard, man.
00:51:54
Mary
true.
00:51:55
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:51:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Go ahead, Mary.
00:51:55
#1 Alm Fan
There's no easy road there.
00:51:56
Mary
What?
00:51:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, go ahead.
00:51:57
Mary
When did you?
00:51:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry.
00:51:58
Mary
um i was just curious, when did you do the pattern plywood in that in that time period?
00:52:06
Michael Alm
2018, 2019, something like that.
00:52:07
Mary
Oh, so it's like pretty at the beginning.
00:52:09
Michael Alm
It was pretty early on. Yeah, it was the broccoler Rockler challenge, the Rockler one sheet of plywood challenge that I know a bunch of other YouTubers kind of launched their channels then.
00:52:14
Mary
Oh, yeah.
00:52:23
Mary
Gotcha.
00:52:23
Michael Alm
I know Ben Paik, Wobie Design, launched his channel during that.
00:52:24
Mary
Interesting. Yeah, yeah.
00:52:27
Michael Alm
And there's a few others. It was super fun.
00:52:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wow. All right. So now we've we've we've gone through the pivot. We're there. We've gone through the career change.
00:52:36
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:52:36
#1 Alm Fan
We're at the pivot, yeah.
00:52:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and And just just as ah as a ah point of interest.
00:52:40
Michael Alm
I would argue that it's ah that it's a lot of pivots. It's multiple pivots, but yes.
00:52:44
#1 Alm Fan
Sounds that way.
00:52:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:52:44
#1 Alm Fan
And I think that's an important distinction too for for people who are in that headspace right now.
00:52:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Yes.
00:52:46
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:52:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a good point.
00:52:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I was curious before this episode, I was thinking about career paths and a couple of different questions came up and we're going to answer both.
00:52:50
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
00:52:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So first of all, I want to hear from Mary and Eric about, you know, how many career pivots have you had and myself, but also I want to start with a piece of data. I looked at in and a study by indeed.com, which is, you know, a major like, you know, job hunting service, right?
00:53:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Out of all the people that switched jobs in a two-year span, out of all of them, how many do you think actually changed careers, like fundamentally pivoted? What percent do you think?
00:53:32
#1 Alm Fan
fifteen percent
00:53:34
Mary
I
00:53:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael?
00:53:35
Michael Alm
I was gonna say 10. Whoa.
00:53:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary?
00:53:39
Mary
was going to say like 25.
00:53:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Apparently, it's 64%.
00:53:45
#1 Alm Fan
What?
00:53:45
Michael Alm
Root.
00:53:46
Mary
was going say it's high. It's definitely high.
00:53:47
#1 Alm Fan
What? 64% of people are just like, fuck banking, I'm going to go into content now?
00:53:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I was stunned. Stunned.
00:53:49
Mary
Yeah.
00:53:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I guess. I don't know.
00:53:58
Mary
People...
00:53:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How's that even?
00:53:59
Mary
Because people get burned out by the like the time they reach 30, 40. thirty forty If they've been doing the same thing for so long, they're just gonna like, I mean, i know this. What should I do next? like You're not as afraid to pivot at that point because you have had experience.
00:54:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mary, have you pivoted?
00:54:15
Mary
Yeah.
00:54:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
tell Tell us.
00:54:16
Mary
Yeah, I pivoted.
00:54:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, tell me.
00:54:18
Mary
Yeah, I mean, most people know that I was an architect for a while. And then, so I went to undergrad for architecture. And I, even in undergrad, I was like, I don't love this, but I should probably work in the field for a bit, just to gain experience. And also, I'm really broke.
00:54:34
Mary
um So worked as an architect for four or five years, was considering going into industrial design, actually. Applied to programs and got into them. and I was like, wait, how do I i can't afford this.
00:54:47
Mary
So it worked a little bit more and then applied for grad school because I was looking at the aspects of my job that I liked in architecture, which was a lot of um like 3D stuff, ah more interface design, lot of like the digital design part. it was like, okay, I'm going apply it for this grad program that is a very generic master's in design, which is intentionally vague because a lot of people go in different paths for it and people come from different um backgrounds as well.
00:55:18
Mary
So um a lot of folks ended up in the the field that I'm in, which is UX design, because we're tired of being poor. So we're just like, all right, well, tech makes money.
00:55:28
Mary
That's great. um It's like, at that point, it's not anymore. At that point, it was guaranteed that it would make you a good amount of money if you went to this program, this grad program at school. So um yeah, so I guess I've career pivoted once mostly.
00:55:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
One big pivot from architecture to UX design.
00:55:48
Mary
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:55:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric?
00:55:51
#1 Alm Fan
I guess I feel more in line with Michael in that it's been a hundred small pivots. You know, it's, it's, if you zoom out far enough, it's a semi circle or maybe it's a full circle.
00:56:05
#1 Alm Fan
um But like, you know, I fell in love. Like I grew up in the trades. I was building all my life. I fell in love with the idea of becoming a furniture maker at 19 or 20.
00:56:18
#1 Alm Fan
And I've done ah million things in between my beginning of my career in the trades and what I'm doing now. You know, I've been a gymnastics coach.
00:56:29
#1 Alm Fan
I've been a janitor. I've been a cabinet maker.
00:56:32
Mary
A Netflix star.
00:56:33
#1 Alm Fan
i've been, I've been on Netflix.
00:56:34
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:56:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah A teacher, a shop teacher?
00:56:36
#1 Alm Fan
Like, uh, I've been a shop teacher. Like I've been everything.
00:56:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:56:39
#1 Alm Fan
And it's, it's all kind of been in the service of the, the dream, you know? Um, and so kind of pivoting, but also like doing YouTube. And this is, this is kind of,
00:56:57
#1 Alm Fan
a thing maybe we'll still get into ah Michael with you of the pivot to make content is maybe the biggest pivot of my career and the I don't know what the right way to phrase it is.
00:57:11
#1 Alm Fan
The, the consideration that artists, furniture makers, people who make things are viewed and considered one way and people who make content are viewed and considered another way.
00:57:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a
00:57:25
#1 Alm Fan
That's a very real, that's a, that's it like, it's a reputational consideration, you know? Um, so maybe that's been the biggest, ah
00:57:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, eric let's be more Eric, let's be more explicit about that.
00:57:37
#1 Alm Fan
Are you just trying to avoid answering the question yourself or?
00:57:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so Oh, no, I just thought you you put up such a great... like all right well ah No, no i'll now ah ah I'll answer the the question briefly.
00:57:43
#1 Alm Fan
Okay. all right. We can, we can dive in. We'll come back to you.
00:57:49
#1 Alm Fan
Okay.
00:57:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've never pivoted. I haven't had any. For 32 years, I've pursued biology and I still love it. So it's it's sort of an uninteresting answer. And it's a, rare I think it's probably a rare answer, but I knew what I wanted.
00:58:02
#1 Alm Fan
Feels like a rare answer.
00:58:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I knew what I wanted then.
00:58:03
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
00:58:03
Mary
You're in the 40% apparently. That doesn't pivot.
00:58:06
#1 Alm Fan
That's true.
00:58:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i guess, I guess.
00:58:06
#1 Alm Fan
That's not a small chunk of people. Yeah.
00:58:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, that was in a two-year period. Most people, that was in a two-year period, 60%, 22 24, 2022 to not.
00:58:14
Mary
yeah what Do you know what what years
00:58:17
#1 Alm Fan
Do you know what the age bracket was? Hmm.
00:58:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i do not and do not but But anyway, I think theres there's a small group of people who know what they want early, and it turns out that it's a good fit when they get there.
00:58:21
#1 Alm Fan
Be curious. Okay, we...
00:58:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you know There's no gotchas.
00:58:31
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm. Hmm.
00:58:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, Michael, you had a few like moments where you're like, oh shit, this isn't quite what I was expecting, whether it was the Chihuly chapter whatever. Or, you know, what it's like living in galleries.
00:58:39
#1 Alm Fan
What it's like with a science-wise.
00:58:39
Michael Alm
Yeah.
00:58:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But science was what I signed up for. It was as great as I thought it was going to be. I mean, sure, there were there were sketchy moments where like there's no protection. Like, you know, either shut the fuck up and do what I tell you. or You don't get a Ph.D. There's no protections for you over grad school.
00:58:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You either do it or you don't or you get kicked out. So you shut the fuck up and you do it. It's that simple if you want the degree. And so, yeah, it gets a little thin at times. Sure, you're living thin, but you're young.
00:59:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You can handle it. But by and large, what I thought it was going to be was exactly what it was and maybe sometimes better. So I haven't had a reason to pivot and my love for it never waned.
00:59:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It it was always consistent. But
00:59:19
#1 Alm Fan
Well, and I think importantly, and we'll come back to the question, I can see you get Nancy about that. But the importantly, i think your experience in science, at least for the last 15 or so years, has been that it allows you enough space to develop a second love, which is really important.
00:59:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, for sure. i mean, that that was unexpected. But the the first thing, that was an unexpected second thing.
00:59:42
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah. Yeah.
00:59:45
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But the first thing is that doing is science doing science every day is as interesting and fun and it never becomes boring or banal.
00:59:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like it is as good as it was back in grad school. And I love it every day. And I still love it every day. I don't i haven't even come close to burning out on it, which I don't
01:00:05
Mary
That's really lucky. Most people don't have that experience.
01:00:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I don't know if that's science or I don't know if that's me or if it's a little bit of both of us. I'm not sure, but I feel very lucky. Yeah. And I love it. So I'll continue doing that as long as I can.
01:00:18
Michael Alm
That's amazing.
01:00:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Eric, back to your really interesting point. You you were calling out a dichotomy between a perception of a serious, and I'll use that word, that serious artist, Michael.
01:00:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm sure you know what I'm kind of and referring to. and the YouTube woodworker. And Michael, I was i recall in your episode of um your documentary episode with with with Justin Mabee, you said something along the lines of, there's a stigma associated with YouTube woodworkers.
01:00:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so I think, ah Eric, that's what you were calling out is the serious artist, the school, right?
01:00:53
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:01:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Versus the stigma of the YouTube woodworker. Let's speak to that.
01:01:05
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, I mean, listen, in in short, um I think I had a similar, not necessarily a similar bias. I think I knew enough people who made content to know that they were also really capable and talented and hardworking.
01:01:21
#1 Alm Fan
um woodworkers, artists in different media, et cetera. But early on, I think probably certainly, Michael, when you started um and even still when I started, whatever it was, two and a half, three years ago, um there was this idea that if you make your content or if you make your your living from content, that you're not serious, you're not successful, you're not capable of making your living As ah as an artist or a furniture maker.
01:01:54
#1 Alm Fan
And there's there's definitely an association like I still get Larissa will tell me, you know, oh, I met X person. And I mentioned that you and I share a shop and they're like, oh, the the guy from YouTube.
01:02:07
#1 Alm Fan
It's like, well, yeah, yeah. Like I'm on YouTube, but I also have a portfolio of 15 years before that where I was making professional work. um And I've I've exhibited and showed in galleries around the country.
01:02:20
#1 Alm Fan
But I'm known as the YouTube guy, you know, in our circles. And and that's a little irritating to me. I'm not going lie. Even still, Michael, what was your experience with that and in the art world? Because I feel like you guys maybe maybe even snootier than the furniture world.
01:02:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Michael, what's the stigma?
01:02:37
Michael Alm
What's the stigma? um Well, I think I internalized it a lot, actually. i think i I felt that I was stepping away from ah like the career path that I had set out and that I was not achieving my goals by going to YouTube a little bit.
01:02:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm. Hmm.
01:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:02:56
Michael Alm
I was embarrassed to call myself a YouTuber for a really long time. I would not bring it up. I would be like, I'm a furniture maker, I'm a sculptor. And then it started getting too...
01:03:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Wait, what why is that embarrassing?
01:03:05
Michael Alm
I don't know. i mean, now it's a point of pride. I'm so proud of what I've accomplished. um And it's, I mean, it's, it's crazy, but I had this moment where I was like, well, you know, I'm, you know, i always, if anyone said like, oh, you're making your little YouTube videos, like
01:03:22
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, it's always little YouTube videos.
01:03:23
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah because
01:03:24
#1 Alm Fan
Why is that?
01:03:25
Michael Alm
that would set me off.
01:03:27
#1 Alm Fan
It's always the adjective that they use.
01:03:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's so cute.
01:03:30
Michael Alm
what
01:03:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You're making your little YouTube videos.
01:03:31
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
01:03:31
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:03:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's adorable.
01:03:32
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:03:32
#1 Alm Fan
oh
01:03:33
Michael Alm
But then it, But then they would go watch them and then they would be like, oh, they're actually good. And I'm like, you know, I mean, there's a lot of garbage out there. There's a lot of bad artists out there.
01:03:44
Michael Alm
There's a lot of, well, I shouldn't say bad, but there's, there's like, there's people on every, okay.
01:03:48
#1 Alm Fan
Well, there are bad artists out there. We can but you can acknowledge
01:03:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i wish you could see Mary's face.
01:03:52
Michael Alm
I don't, I,
01:03:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
For those of you with a video feed, you did...
01:03:54
#1 Alm Fan
That was a heavy eye roll.
01:03:55
Michael Alm
ha I don't want to, I don't want to like, cause I know there's a lot here. theres I know that like art artist is a term that some people are really scared to call themselves. Like, like historically people are like, you know, hold that term really high. I don't necessarily hold it as high as like the snootiest artists. I think that it's, it's, it can, it's totally a shared term. ah Stay away from sculptor, but you can. Yeah.
01:04:23
Michael Alm
No, are ah but, um, I'm getting off. Uh, I, I think the, I think the YouTube thing for a little while did make me feel like I was, uh, um, influencer.
01:04:34
Michael Alm
Like I was like, uh, you know, like I was going after like money grabbing or whatever, whatever, however people like think of what we do, but knowing the people that I know,
01:04:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:04:45
Michael Alm
ah in the YouTube world, I'm like, I should wear this with pride because the hardest working people I know are these YouTubers and the coolest people that I know are these YouTubers, people doing the most interesting stuff.
01:04:55
Michael Alm
um Or like this maker community that we have built, it's it's so strong and so cool. And the weird thing that connects us together that's not...
01:05:07
Michael Alm
It's not that we do the same thing. It's that we're that we're all kind of creatively developing this medium together. um And I find it more... I'm more passionate about this than I think I ever was about making my art work.
01:05:24
#1 Alm Fan
Interesting.
01:05:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What?
01:05:26
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:05:27
Michael Alm
I really...
01:05:27
#1 Alm Fan
is that Is that individually driven?
01:05:29
#1 Alm Fan
is that community driven? what is that?
01:05:32
Michael Alm
It's just so... rich. Like, it's so rich. um I mean, they're like...
01:05:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What's so rich?
01:05:40
Mary
Well, yeah, what is it that interests you the most? I'm like curious which part of the YouTube...
01:05:43
#1 Alm Fan
We're just asking all the questions simultaneously now.
01:05:45
Mary
Yeah.
01:05:47
Michael Alm
Well, there's, okay, so many cool people. Like, we just had that meetup, which was insane, in Philly with you guys, which is so fun. And, like like, people are like, oh, you're going on a work trip.
01:05:59
Michael Alm
I'm like, no, I'm going to hang out with my friends, and we're going to, like, talk and shop in the best possible way.
01:06:01
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
01:06:04
Michael Alm
And, like, you know, so much builds from that. Yeah. I just find it so collaborative and the challenge of every month to put together the story of what I'm doing in the shop and to build on my experiences and be able to share that with people of like, you know, all these little things that would happen in the shop that I could tell people with and they're like, okay, yeah, whatever.
01:06:30
Michael Alm
But now I've found a community of people that will actually like, Like watch it, enjoy it and build on it. There's like I do read a lot of comments and um and and it educates me more to be better at the job that I'm doing in a really collaborative way that I have not experienced. And art felt really lonely.
01:06:51
Michael Alm
Art felt really, really lonely.
01:06:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:06:53
#1 Alm Fan
That is such a gracious take on on the community aspect of your videos.
01:06:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:07:00
#1 Alm Fan
To read comments and take that, like like I'm dead ass serious right now.
01:07:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:07:05
#1 Alm Fan
Like to read those comments and think there is, is now of course i I know you know that there's always going to be assholes out there.
01:07:13
Michael Alm
Oh, there's loads of them.
01:07:13
#1 Alm Fan
but
01:07:14
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:07:14
#1 Alm Fan
but But to read them and go, oh I could have done this better and not put your defenses up and go like, well, it's my fucking YouTube channel. I can do whatever I want.
01:07:24
Michael Alm
There's a thing in art school called the critique process. It is more brutal than YouTube comments. And,
01:07:33
#1 Alm Fan
That's true.
01:07:34
Michael Alm
ah
01:07:34
Mary
Yeah.
01:07:35
Michael Alm
i have I have cried at ah ah critiques. I have made people cry at critiques. And that is something that I... ah that's that's That's a piece of armor that I carry with me from art school.
01:07:53
Michael Alm
And it's... ah And it's honestly, you come out the other side better and stronger and more interesting when you, ah when you don't take those as criticisms of you, but take them as criticisms of your work and look at the work as something separate from you.
01:08:15
Michael Alm
If that makes sense.
01:08:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It does, it does.
01:08:16
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, you are not your word.
01:08:18
Michael Alm
No, you can take it really personally. It's very easy to, and I'm not invulnerable to this, but it's like, uh, yeah.
01:08:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric. ah
01:08:28
#1 Alm Fan
What? What?
01:08:29
Michael Alm
Eric, how's how Eric, how's your relationship with the comments these days?
01:08:31
Mary
Yeah, is that different?
01:08:33
#1 Alm Fan
Um, I will be honest, I will occasionally dip in and try to answer some comments or respond to some things.
01:08:43
#1 Alm Fan
um But for the last like, couple of months, I'm just in this headspace of I just like I can't I don't I don't have the bandwidth to do it. You know, and I don't have the bandwidth to engage.
01:08:55
#1 Alm Fan
I appreciate, I deeply appreciate that people are watching the videos and leaving comments.
Handling Feedback and Criticism
01:09:01
#1 Alm Fan
And, and I think the 80 to 90% are overwhelmingly positive.
01:09:07
#1 Alm Fan
And then there's the, you know, five to 10% that are like, Hey man, that's a video.
01:09:07
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
01:09:12
#1 Alm Fan
Here's a comment because i you know, I appreciate what you're doing. And then the, like the 5% have just like the last couple of months just stuck in my craw. And I'm like, yeah there's no way for me to engage with that in a healthy way. So I'm just going to dip out for a while.
01:09:27
Mary
So you don't have the same approach of like taking the criticism, do you think?
01:09:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interesting.
01:09:33
#1 Alm Fan
Um, I think it's really hard for me to interpret proper criticism via text, via written comment.
01:09:47
#1 Alm Fan
Whereas like if we were having a conversation, if Michael says something, if Mary says something, if Paul says something, and it hits me the wrong way, number one, at least like we have a level of trust.
01:09:58
#1 Alm Fan
You guys are my friends. We can converse about it. Number two. So I know it's coming from the right spot.
01:10:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:10:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:10:03
#1 Alm Fan
Number two, if it hits me the wrong way, we can converse and I can tease it out.
01:10:08
#1 Alm Fan
You know, it's like, oh, well, what what are you trying to get out there? And then I can get to the helpful criticism. Whereas like the Internet, there's just there's no there's no way to do that.
01:10:18
#1 Alm Fan
but There's no way to converse on it, you know?
01:10:22
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:10:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:10:23
Mary
I feel like having a filter is probably like the ability to parse through comments or critiques that you think are actually helpful versus ones that you acknowledge are not going to be helpful to your work and your progress as an artist.
01:10:38
Mary
um Having that filter is important of like knowing when to ignore someone versus taking it in.
01:10:44
#1 Alm Fan
Oh, sure. No, I can ignore people. i think it I think I'm very good at ignoring people. um I think what I'm getting at is at this moment in my journey, feel...
01:10:57
#1 Alm Fan
i feel maybe slightly overexposed. Like there's just too much of me on the internet in, in people's lives. And, and, and, and I don't know, i don't know that I can develop good ideas when, um, I'm, when I have that feeling.
01:11:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Interesting, Eric. What?
01:11:17
Michael Alm
Oh, that's interesting.
01:11:17
Mary
It's true. I would like to see less of you. Yeah.
01:11:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a
01:11:21
#1 Alm Fan
Motherfucker, you've been on two episodes in the last month and now you're out here like, I don't even want to be friends anymore.
01:11:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, zing.
01:11:26
Mary
hey
01:11:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, Mary. ah Eric, I have some band-aids. I'll bring them over. Well,
01:11:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
well
01:11:35
#1 Alm Fan
Anyway.
Creative Freedom on YouTube
01:11:36
#1 Alm Fan
anyway
01:11:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Michael, I feel as though the way you're approaching YouTube is not that common in that you're you've paid such an enormous price for such a long time in the more formal art world that that probably gives you ah a bit of a different take or a different appreciation or a different approach to how you run your YouTube, where your head space is for making things, the the the enjoyment, like because you have something to compare it to from your previous life.
01:12:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you're like, that sucked. This is amazing. This is great. Not that YouTube doesn't have its sucky moments and and video creation, but I do feel like your path has changed how you view it compared to the way I see other people who just start on YouTube fresh.
01:12:30
Michael Alm
Interesting. Well, I mean, my life didn't suck before. I did really enjoy those 10 years.
01:12:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, not that it sucked. I wasn't implying your life sucked.
01:12:39
Mary
Ha ha ha ha
01:12:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's a bit...
01:12:39
#1 Alm Fan
You were really falling apart of the fucking seams before YouTube, Michael, huh?
01:12:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's that's it.
01:12:41
Michael Alm
ah
01:12:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no but but you know artistically... Yeah,
01:12:45
Michael Alm
Yeah, no, it was hard.
01:12:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
the
01:12:47
Michael Alm
It's hard work. It's all hard work. I mean, woodworking's hard, right, Eric?
01:12:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah that's for sure.
01:12:51
Michael Alm
It's like, that's, I'm enjoying that channel, by the way.
01:12:52
#1 Alm Fan
True statement.
01:12:55
Michael Alm
I really enjoyed it.
01:12:56
#1 Alm Fan
and Thanks, buddy. Shout shout out to Larissa.
01:12:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
eric to Eric, talk about it. We've never talked about it, ever.
01:13:00
#1 Alm Fan
We've never talked about the channel.
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No.
01:13:02
#1 Alm Fan
ah Well, it's a new channel with ah Larissa, my shopmate and I, where we are making objects and sometimes they're in competition, sometimes they will be in collaboration.
01:13:13
#1 Alm Fan
And the whole thing is just us kind of not really knowing what we're doing. And hence the name, Woodworking is Hard.
01:13:21
Michael Alm
It's so good. i really, like i I'm very excited for episode three. I just like really enjoying it.
01:13:25
#1 Alm Fan
Thanks, buddy. Appreciate that.
01:13:27
Michael Alm
um I don't remember what question I was answering, Paul, but.
01:13:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it was ah it was about how your how your background...
01:13:33
Mary
How your life was really awful before.
01:13:35
Michael Alm
Yeah, how my life sucked and and I pulled myself out.
01:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i I did not say any of that.
01:13:39
#1 Alm Fan
Bye.
01:13:40
Michael Alm
You.
01:13:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i did not say any of that, but we did spend 45 minutes talking how you weren't realizing your goals the more traditional way.
01:13:43
Michael Alm
You to YouTube.
01:13:45
#1 Alm Fan
ah
01:13:47
Michael Alm
YouTube saved my life. I ah i i i mean, yeah, I think I viewed YouTube maybe be a little differently than most. um But I mean, that's just everyone brings their own life experience to this platform. And the beauty of that platform is that you have long storytelling, long form stuff, and you can build it however you want. like um And I've been very...
01:14:12
Michael Alm
i've I've built the YouTube channel that I want to watch, that I want to be a part of. um And, you know, I've had some moments, like some dark moments, like what Eric's talking about, where I was like, you know, what did they want?
01:14:25
Michael Alm
What does my audience want? And especially coming off of the House Remodel it ah series, which was a whole left turn that... debatably, the channel, some people really loved it, but my audience was telling me, you need to go back to making artwork. And i think I was actually like kind of perceptive. like I think that was right. And I think I was feeling it too, where was like, i I need this creative outlet ah to be a creative outlet and to not appeal to what
01:14:56
Michael Alm
others expect me to do because I think the unexpected is what has made my channel strong. um And these, these artistic wild hairs, as I call them, like I, I follow those wild hairs constantly.
01:15:11
Michael Alm
And that's why I like, making YouTube videos is because I get the chance to just, just go down a path because I'm a obsessed with learning new techniques and new, uh, new forms and, and just new ways to build stuff. So if I'm doing that, I'm in my sweet spot and I'm having a blast. And as long as I've got an audience that supports me doing that, I'm like in the best place I could possibly be.
01:15:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it's funny you answered that because that actually bears on my next and and probably the last question. We're at an hour and 15. um My last question was, what does success mean to you now and
Defining Success in Creativity
01:15:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
looking forward? How do you define that for yourself?
01:15:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And have you been scratching at it already?
01:15:59
Michael Alm
That's big question. that's a big question um it's a It's a wild one because I do think that in terms of my YouTube goals, like when I started the channel, I'm like light years beyond what I expected out of it.
01:16:15
Michael Alm
And in terms of like my access to tools and equipment, which is really like been a drive for my adult life is just like making sure that I have the means to make the things that I want to make.
01:16:29
Michael Alm
That's crazy. we're kind of there. Um, so I'm in this kind of sweet spot right now that is kind of magical. Like I'm really enjoying it and i want to stay in it.
01:16:41
Michael Alm
Um, and I can't believe that people are letting me stay in it. Like it's like a really playful space to, to make things. And, um, like, I don't know. I, I, I'm really, I can't complain. I'm like, I have goals of like, I'd like to teach more. i would like to, um, you know, I would like to, uh, build more complex work. I'm always driving towards like, um, like bettering my skills as a woodworker. And I'm in this, like, I'm in this like renaissance of like, I'm, I'm like just starting hand tools. I'm kind of,
01:17:16
Michael Alm
just starting solid wood furniture, like I really didn't, I did plywood furniture for the longest time. So like, I'm looking at Mary and and Eric and like, you guys know the joy of solid wood furniture. I'm kind of just realizing how awesome it is.
01:17:34
Michael Alm
And I'm reading so much right now. So like, I don't know, like if you want to talk about like, what what was the phrasing of the question? Like what my,
01:17:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I was sort of asking what does success look like? How do you define that? What does it look like to you now?
01:17:50
Michael Alm
ay I mean, i don't mean i don't know if I'm striving for like a defined success so much as I'm striving for a feeling of like like in enjoyment.
01:18:02
#1 Alm Fan
Do you feel successful?
01:18:06
Michael Alm
ah I mean, yeah yeah. I mean, yeah, I've i've done what i was what I've been trying to do. It's just a weird thing to say out loud.
01:18:14
#1 Alm Fan
What were you trying to do? It doesn't mean you're arrogant. Like, what did you know, do you do you feel like you are doing the thing you set out to do when you went when you got into art school and you said, I want to make shit with my hands for a living?
01:18:24
Michael Alm
Absolutely.
01:18:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:18:31
#1 Alm Fan
Are you doing that?
01:18:31
Michael Alm
Yeah.
01:18:32
#1 Alm Fan
Do you feel like you're doing that? Well, can you pay your bills?
01:18:35
Michael Alm
Yes, yes and yes, which is, and it's just insane.
01:18:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That sounds pretty good.
01:18:39
Michael Alm
It's absolutely insane. Like you think about that, um that um my, my ex-girlfriend's dad, who was just like, this is like, what are you going to do?
01:18:48
#1 Alm Fan
Hmm.
01:18:51
Michael Alm
yeah and I'm like, I'm going to sculpt.
01:18:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Hmm.
01:18:52
Michael Alm
i mean, I'm still a sculptor. Like I still in my heart, that's what I'm doing. And I'm getting as much joy out of making furniture as I ever did out of sculpture. And I think that's like following that drive of like, I want to do this. I've been successful there.
01:19:10
Michael Alm
um I'm kind of, yeah.
01:19:12
#1 Alm Fan
You're going to make a lot of our listeners who are right on the fringe of quitting their job and changing careers. You're going with that fucking message at the end. Yeah. Yeah. They're going to pivot.
01:19:24
#1 Alm Fan
Feel it in my bones.
01:19:24
Michael Alm
it
01:19:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:19:25
Michael Alm
it's It's so fun. I mean, making stuff, it's just a drug, right?
01:19:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. Well, with that, Michael, thank you so much. i was like, and yeah, I was so...
01:19:36
Mary
That was so good. Yeah.
01:19:38
#1 Alm Fan
That was good.
01:19:38
Michael Alm
Oh, thanks, guys.
01:19:38
Mary
That is
01:19:39
Michael Alm
It was fun.
01:19:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what a story you have. I was so in it.
01:19:42
Mary
true.
01:19:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like I could feel like you felt at certain times, like it's just a hint of what you were feeling. And it really had me there. And I was kind of like, Oh my God, what happened next? ah Thank you so much.
01:19:55
#1 Alm Fan
i could tell I could tell you were highly engaged with the story because you didn't say much for like 45 minutes.
01:19:59
Mary
that is true
01:20:00
#1 Alm Fan
You were just letting them ride.
Career Reflections and Inner Critic Discussion
01:20:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, what's to say?
01:20:02
#1 Alm Fan
were just letting them him cook, man.
01:20:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, yeah, but because all of us want to hear like, what happened next?
01:20:05
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah.
01:20:06
Mary
That's true.
01:20:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What happened next?
01:20:06
Mary
Michael, he's like, you're a natural storyteller.
01:20:07
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then, and,
01:20:07
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah. Yeah.
01:20:10
Michael Alm
Oh, thanks.
01:20:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Michael, thank thank you.
01:20:11
#1 Alm Fan
No, it was a great episode. Thank you, buddy.
01:20:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:20:13
#1 Alm Fan
Appreciate having you on.
01:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you for sharing with with everyone like what it took for you to like try the thing, realize maybe there's a better way to do the thing and to to have the guts to pivot.
01:20:14
Michael Alm
ah
01:20:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it sounds like it wasn't like a like kind of a singular moment pivot, but more of a gradual... kind of over time, multiple pivots, like Eric, you were saying you you've done 100 pivots.
01:20:36
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it seems like these are, you know, you you can have a moment where you're like, it's all changing on this moment, like when you become a parent, that's a singular moment pivot that never, right, as Michael, as you know, being a new parent.
01:20:47
Michael Alm
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
01:20:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um
01:20:48
Michael Alm
Mm-hmm.
01:20:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But then there's this idea of like slowly testing the water, see how it feels and pivoting over time. So for all the listeners, you know, who are going to start YouTube channels after this episode, um you know, think about your own life. What are the signs that you should or should not pivot? Some do, some don't like myself. And I, we hope you enjoyed this episode.
01:21:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
The secret question
01:21:12
Mary
Oh, God.
01:21:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and that I had.
01:21:12
#1 Alm Fan
Are we saving it for the after show now?
01:21:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
We're saving it for the after show. How to, how to listen to the after show. All you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon. It's in the link in the bio. You can see the video feed. You can see all the funny faces that Mary makes when we're talking.
01:21:25
Mary
It's usually where everyone makes fun of me, honestly.
01:21:28
#1 Alm Fan
Yeah, as they should.
01:21:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah Um, so, um, yeah all you have to do is become a pat patron and you can see the video feed. Um, and so the question I'm going to leave you with for the after show, and we're going to talk about this.
01:21:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And i had, this is a secret question. Michael and, um, Mary have not heard this. Uh, unfortunately I told it to Eric at one point.
01:21:56
Michael Alm
Bye.
01:21:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
What relationship do you have with your inner critic? and would you and would you talk to And would you talk to other people the way you talk to yourself?
01:22:03
#1 Alm Fan
Yep.
01:22:09
#1 Alm Fan
I'm so excited for these two to answer this question.
01:22:14
Mary
You already know my goddamn answer.
01:22:16
Michael Alm
Thank you.
01:22:16
#1 Alm Fan
know, that's why I'm excited.
01:22:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And with that, we'll see you next time.
01:22:19
#1 Alm Fan
Bye!
01:22:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye!
01:22:22
Michael Alm
by thank you