Transcript
Speaker: Hi everyone, we are back, your favorite podcast about creativity, art, design, philosophy. This is Woodworking is Bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined with my two co-hosts this show.
Speaker: We have in the first chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator. commo thatspimigo As well. Oh, you got that. No, was bilingual, bitch, huh? I did it. I did As well as our more often recurring friend and opinionated amazing co-host, Conrad Sauer. Conrad...
Speaker: We are so happy to have you joining us more frequently. Yeah, thank you. This is this is a lot of fun. This is great. I love this. Hell yeah, buddy. We do too. Yeah, a yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker: um Paul, before anything happens on this episode, I need to ask you about something I just noticed, which is, do you have a tape measure holding up your microphone right now? Is that what's happening? Sorry for those who have the video feed.
Speaker: my You told me, Eric, that my my voice sounds better when I shoot it. Sure, sure. The mic sounds so hot right now. You're so sexy. Oh, oh. No, hot in a good way.
Speaker: am i Am I suddenly Jack Thomas? No.
Speaker: so but But why do you have a tape measure on there? Well, I couldn't get the stand to fucking stay still in this weird-ass position. So i fucking know it's tethered to the desk with a tape measure? This is a this is a like seamstresses tape measure that found in the desk drawer, and I just wrapped it around the stand. and like If only it was one of those ones from Ikea. That would have been even better. Uh-huh.
Speaker: So yeah, is this okay. All right. You know what? I respect your MacGyverness. That's how I roll. So today's topic, everybody is going to be a live one. i guarantee you that.
Speaker: And I'm going to tell you how we came to this topic or how I came to this topic before I introduced the question. So when I first got on social media,
Speaker: I was all about the craft. I wanted woodworking, I wanted to learn, I wanted to see the best makers, I wanted to see the best quality stuff blow my mind. wanna see masters. i you know That's what I was really, you know when I first got on social media.
Speaker: And what I quickly realized And what what started happening is like I definitely found some people like that who were like so impressive as hell and their craft was wonderful and they were yeah very well educated artists and they you know had a ton of experience.
Speaker: But I also started noticing this phenomenon where people who seemed like beginners to me or maybe intermediates had way bigger audiences.
Speaker: than the masters or people who I thought deserved a big audience because they were phenomenal at woodworking. There were these like people. And I think at this point we call them influencers in many cases.
Speaker: that didn't have the master level skills, but they had these gigantic audiences and the people, like the the audience was just fawning over them is how it seemed to me.
Speaker: They were like, oh my God, you're so good. This is so amazing. You're a master. And I'm looking at what they're making and I'm thinking, what the fuck? Really? This is not master level. Like you haven't seen master level motherfucker. Like if you think this is a master, you need to have your fucking head checked.
Speaker: Like I was indignant. I was so angry. And I was like really pissed off by this. And Conrad's laughing because I know he feels the same way.
Speaker: Okay. And so I'm like, these fucking charlatans, they are good at selling themselves. They're they're they're entertaining. they They get these massive audiences. People fucking piss all over them. Oh, you're so great. Oh, you're so great. And they have no clue what they're doing. They have no idea where the real bar is. They're all about like these huge audiences and making money.
Speaker: like And I was so dead set against it. And then with time, Eric, I started to see the world a little differently. I said, why am I so fucking angry? Am I jealous?
Speaker: that it's that it's not me with a huge audience? am i you know Why is this rubbing me the wrong way? And with time, I started to realize it's because I was viewing social media as a tool to bring us the best that craft had to offer.
Speaker: This is an opportunity to get in touch with the finest craftsmen on the earth and to educate us. But I didn't realize that social media was also about entertaining people.
Speaker: There's an entertainment piece and there's an education piece. And that's what today's episode is about. It's what is social media really about? Is it about the craft?
Speaker: Is it about the entertainment? Is it about the education? Is it about all three? How do we sift this out? You know, what is it really about? That was a brilliant fucking introduction to the question.
Speaker: That was good. thing That was good, dog. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, okay, Conrad, take it down. Go for it. So Conrad, I'll start by asking, did you have a similar experience when you first came into um social media?
Speaker: Yeah, very much. but And I'm... i'm I'm probably still, um I'm still very much interested in seeing really amazing work.
Speaker: Like that that first and foremost, I mean, there's a whole bunch of people that I know personally and admire and respect as individuals. But ultimately, like if I go through the people that I'm following, most of those are people whose work I'm interested in. And so for me, it it started off being about ah very much like you, very, very craft focused. I was looking for inspiration, looking to kind of connect, see more stuff that inspired me beyond, you know, going through woodwork magazine or fine woodworking.
Speaker: It was like, Oh shit, there's this, you know, whole new thing that gives me an opportunity to see more. Um, and I'm, I'm still at, that is still the primary driver for me, I think. Um, But I have wrestled, too you know, also noticed the same sort of phenomenon. And that's been kind of wrestling with something similar actually is, okay, what exactly is What exactly is going on and what's the what are the primary drivers? And I think I've also started wondering about, does that do a disservice to um anybody who's pursuing craft? Because like you, there's people that I get a lot of inspiration from and they've got very, very little of a very, very small audience. And how do how do those really highly skilled people
Speaker: you know very, very dedicated folks get noticed. And it it seems like they're left out of the popularity contest as it becomes a bigger, um a more and more um popularity contest based system.
Speaker: Eric?
Speaker: The disservice to the craft is the interesting thing to me. And there are so many, like, there are so many parallels. I mean, let's take music, for example.
Speaker: Pop music, let's just go out on a limb. Pop music mostly sucks. Like, it's all the same shit, right? It's the same regurgitated bullshit. It's a business. You know how to crank out a hit. You know a bunch of 14 to 17-year-old people will listen to this over and over again and they become diehard fans of that artist.
Speaker: And then the artist makes money on tour. The company makes money from the the record sales and the singles and everything else. So, ah you know, there's a lot of manipulation. There's a lot of problems there, but let's just broad strokes. Everybody wins.
Speaker: Okay. The music doesn't win. But just because that's the state of what's being consumed by the majority of people in but fits and spurts doesn't mean that good music is being hurt because of the existence of pop music. And in fact, there are some people who might come into music being like, listen, I'm a diehard Dua Lipa fan.
Speaker: Okay, great. Fine. Like, you know, I love Dua Lipa. She got a couple of fucking bops in there. I'm not gonna lie. She got a couple bops. hurt her Her voice is incredible, and she is the most gorgeous woman on the entire planet.
Speaker: Interesting. As somebody who's currently engaged to the most gorgeous woman on the entire planet. That's called game, bro.
Speaker: She'll never hear that clip unless that's the one I pull for Instagram. But regardless... ah Dua Lipa, fine. I listen to Dua Lipa's music from time to time. She's got some bops, but it's not groundbreaking, right? she's She's regurgitating the same shit over and over. But somebody could potentially listen to Dua Lipa, be influenced to start picking up an instrument, start singing, and then through a series of events down the road, be led into something that actually is...
Speaker: moving the the form of music forward. right you're saying that You're saying the light version of it is the gateway drug. It is the gateway, and I think that's an important thing. like i I live by what I call the Ratatouille principle.
Speaker: Please. Which is the Ratatouille principle is anyone can cook. And not that not that anyone should cook. Can be a great cook, right? Or anyone should cook. Because that's not true. That's not true.
Speaker: But a great cook can come from anywhere. yes And I think the Ratatouille principle works because even the idea of pulling a profound philosophical idea from a Pixar movie kind of proves its own point. like it's all kind of Eric, did you just make that up right now? The Ratatouille principle? that's literally at the end of the movie. It's like, anyone can cook.
Speaker: you know yeah um and And I think the exposure to a thing is so deeply important at the very beginning of anybody's career that...
Speaker: Listen, we just live in an age where teenagers are on their phone 24-7. I mean, how most of us adults are on our phone 24-7. And the exposure to a new thing could eventually lead somebody into the craft who could do something profoundly good for the craft.
Speaker: I see. Okay. So... We've started with some some pro and con ideas, right? And just just so the listeners know, the story I started out with and where Conrad's coming from, like that was sort of our old view. And Conrad, I know you're still craft first. I don't mean you've changed it from that. But like what I said in my first opening statement was the old me. There's a totally – my view of the world has totally been revamped. And through – through Eric in part and through Keith in part and through Jason Hibbs in part, like people who I know that care about the craft deeply, but also enter are not afraid to dip their feet in the entertainment side or the education side. So like, I just, just want to put that out there. Like that's not, that's not where I'm at currently.
Speaker: Well, where are you at? Well, Eric, it's well eric
Speaker: it's a It's complicated is where I'm at currently. always complicated. Listen, I painted with broad strokes too, buddy. so let's You know what I like to do? When something's complicated in science, what it's what's good to do is break it down into its component parts and and analyze them independently. So let's do that. let's say Let's just analyze what if social media was only craft, like high, high quality craft,
Speaker: Like, what would that social media look like? It would look like a gallery? Yeah. It would be like every piece is fucking mind-blowing. like but I think there wouldn't be that many posts because masterful work takes so much time. And you'd need an overlord.
Speaker: Like, yeah need you would need someone to curate it because... That's exactly what I mean by it's going to start to look like a gallery real quick, and then it's going to start to become alienating to the mass public, and then people aren't going to be interested in the craft because they see it as fucking hoity-toity bullshit.
Speaker: And everybody's just stroking each other's egos all the time, which is exactly the complaint you had at the beginning of the episode. but but And it's unattainable. Like it doesn't offer a gateway or an entry point. It seems like you're looking a thousand miles down the road and you're thinking, I could never do that. How am I going to, you know?
Speaker: So I think it's it's a bit insurmountable. what if What if social media was just entertainment all the time?
Speaker: Some might argue that it is. Yeah. Yeah. it's It seems to be shifting more and more to that being the primary driver. So I think we can say that television is an entertainment form, right? or there's that There's not a lot of education happening on television. Not much.
Speaker: Only like Antiques Roadshow and like Nova and those kinds of programs. sure, sure. But it's very rare. Yeah, there's not many. There's not a lot. And even those shows are ah edutainment, right? Right. I love that term. Eric, can you do... Wait, e Eric, that's an important term.
Speaker: Okay. Can I define it? Are you about to ask me? Are you going to marry this bitch? No, I think it's worthwhile to pause. Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. I don't know like how oxford Oxford would define it, but I would say it is something close to a perfect 50-50 blend of entertainment and education, which is to say that there are facts based in reality that you are presenting in a way that entertains, which is in fairness, not dissimilar from how I taught preschool gymnastics. You know, you're teaching them skills, but you're doing it with a smile and big energy.
Speaker: And so they're engaged and you know what happens? They learn more because of it. because So it has its value. yeah has its value oh absolutely and that that that's just not in primary school like that is yeah that is like almost all instances with formal teaching if there's a component where there's an enjoyment level and an entertainment level to it there's benefits to that absolutely and that's the thing i don't i didn't want to hit it this early in the episode but but maybe we'll dive into it real quick um the idea that
Speaker: Social media is entertainment and classes in education are proper education. I think is a little bit of a fallacy because the the best makers, the best crafts people, the best designers aren't teaching because they're actually the the doers of the craft.
Speaker: Rarely are they teaching. Oh my God. Often they're shitty teachers. And so it doesn't, even if you get a chance to learn from them, it doesn't necessarily behoove you to sit in a classroom with them for a week or two weeks or six months because they might be complete fucking assholes or they might just not know how to articulate what they're doing because it's so innate in them.
Speaker: So being a good teacher is in part being able to identify where the student is at and meet them there. But it's also in part being able to entertain them and entice them toward the next step.
Speaker: And so I think I'm a pretty damn good teacher. I'm not the best craftsperson on the planet. They're two separate skills. Right. And I think that's an important distinction when we talk about social. Now, again, I think a lot of social media is bullshit entertainment. Like it's it's break things loudly to catch people's attention. And that's unfortunate. And that I think doesn't do anything to to benefit the craft.
Speaker: But there are people out there who are really, really good at the craft and really good at articulating their thoughts and making videos that can encourage people to then go take a class with good teachers.
Speaker: And and even if they're not the best crafts people like. Again, sometimes you don't want to learn from the best of the best because they're not good at telling you why they're doing what they're doing or how you can get better because all they can see is their one way.
Speaker: yeah yeah And it's the way that works for them. And that's fine. But they can't consider how other people do it. All right. So if if social media was just craft, it would be like a gallery overseen by the overlord.
Speaker: If it was just entertainment, which it almost is, you know, TikTok is getting dangerously close to that, I think. You know, it's almost there. Now, what if it was just education, like purely education? Every time you open Instagram, it's just like an engine.
Speaker: It's a great cure for insomnia. Like, you know, like, honestly, if you listen, ah if you do you guys know who David Charlesworth is? No. oh yeah. OK.
Speaker: Yeah. He he was ah a British guy, made some really nice things, had a bunch of DVDs with Lee Nielsen on like how to sharpen a chisel and things. Sure. Pure education.
Speaker: No, not a lick of charisma in that video. And some people really love that. Some people would would talk to me about how incredible David's DVDs were because it is no nonsense. Here's how you do the thing.
Speaker: It's not cut down for time. It's just 30 minutes of him flattening the back of a fucking chisel. And the majority of people are like, why the fuck did I just watch three hours of some dude with no personality whatsoever just telling me how to lap the back of a chisel? Because it's just not interesting when it's that raw education.
Speaker: All right. So I think what we're coming to is an agreement that any one of these disciplines – in in ah like entirely would not be great. Although educat educat entertainment seems to be the one that fares best actually ah if it was a pure discipline.
Speaker: So I think the the the bottom line or what we come to as a summary statement is that all of us are mixes of these three pieces. And Conrad, that's something you and I kind of were like realizing, was it two weeks ago as we talked about this?
Speaker: Yeah, probably. Yeah. That we're all mixing these three things without even noticing it. Like I think Conrad, you and I sort of had a moment where like, holy shit, like this is, it's more a mixture than I ever really appreciated. But once we separated them out and could like define them, then it was clear that we're all mixture. So what is your Conrad, if you had to give yourself a percent, what percent are you focused on k craft or entertainment or education What percent would you give each of those to define you as 100%? And then we're going to go Eric, and then we're going to go me.
Speaker: ah That's a good question. i would say it's well over half. It would be Kraft. And then education would actually be another bigger chunk. So say 60% craft, maybe 30 or 40, not probably 30 education, and then maybe 10 entertainment.
Speaker: But I also, it's probably not that extreme. Was that 90% that just gained? 50, 50, 30, 20. Let's call it 50, 30, 20. I think entertainment component
Speaker: yeah okay i think i think the entertainment component um would be the smallest. But here's maybe an interesting tieback to the of the podcast that just got released. If you swap that out with storytelling that is integrated into the it's a thread that can go through all of that.
Speaker: Oh, then there's that changes. That would change those percentages pretty significantly. How? How would it change? Oh, that's so good, Conrad. Well, no, it's just like because you you can be. Well, I mean, again, that the one time that I've done any teaching, I found i was.
Speaker: I was doing a lot of teaching through explaining story about a thing. And this is why this works for me. Anecdotal evidence. Yeah, that's a that's entertaining. Yeah, that's ah that's entertaining. Yeah. Which was um I mean, everybody, everybody enjoys that. It was done through a story so they could relate to it.
Speaker: Um, and it was a bit of a, it felt a little bit like a perfect storm, positive in a positive way, because it just flowed really comfortably.
Speaker: So I, I think it's possible that you can actually, like if I substitute the word entertainment for storytelling, it it's yeah There's your bias, huh? Absolutely.
Speaker: Yeah. absolutely totally That's totally a bias. I'm almost disappointed because I was so ready to push back on you about how much of an entertainer you are.
Speaker: Because you are too. You are. You had the elbow drop all ready to go.
Speaker: I was ready to fight, man. i like So clearly your your main focus is the craft, right? But even in the presentation of like your photos, your photos are super sexy.
Speaker: That's entertainment. That's sex appeal, right? Like that's what that is. And you can call it whatever, storytelling. Like let's talk about the line and do... But without the visual sexiness of it, without without it being eye catching, then, you know, like it, it it lacks a little something.
Speaker: Yep, and totally. And fine, call it storytelling, call it entertainment, whatever you want. But that's not an insignificant portion of what you do, and how you relate to the client. No, and and that just actually occurred to me listening to you talk about it because I found myself really agreeing with you on every step of the way that you walked through that.
Speaker: And so that was, you were kind of witnessing me in real time rethinking what what actually is it here? And yeah, if I, and I realized, yeah, swap those two out. And so that's a quirk of mine that I've got a Think on.
Speaker: Oh, wow. and and Very good. i I don't know that that's, I don't think biases are a bad thing inherently. If we understand that we have them and acknowledge that they exist and then they can inform how we go about, you know, wandering through the world. Yep.
Speaker: So I don't think it's unfair to say i would rather like, I call myself a woodworker rather than a carpenter, but like they're interchangeable. Right. It's just the story I tell myself is the verbiage we choose. And I understand the bias that I have.
Speaker: Because when I introduce myself to a person and say I'm a carpenter, they assume I'm a framer. Right. Right. And if I say I'm a woodworker, they go like, okay, basic white guy. And if I say I'm a designer, then they think I'm a fancy bitch. So like there's different ways that you can manipulate, you know, based on your verbiage.
Speaker: Yeah. try Try introducing yourself as a plane maker. I mean, they don't know what the fuck that is. You want to make you make plates or you make airplanes? Yeah. and Yeah. All right. Eric, what's your percentage breakdown? of What were the three categories again? Craft, entertainment, and education.
Speaker: Craft, entertainment, and education. oh Oh, are we looking at my, my career at this moment overall? Are we looking at, cause different components have different ratios.
Speaker: your what What draws you in? Like if you're, if you're going through, you know, Instagram or whatever, and you are making decisions very, very quickly based on what you're looking at, what's going to draw you in?
Speaker: the story is probably primarily going to draw me in. Like what, what is, what's happening? What, what am I, why am I giving you my time? And that could be the object that could be just somebody who's really fucking good at telling, like audibly telling a story, you know?
Speaker: Um, And that that's the craft in that, right? Like knowing how to open a story, knowing how to lead you along. And it's not necessarily just like bullshit sensationalism. Sometimes it's just a really well-crafted, you know, Jack and Jill went up the hill, fetch a pail of water. Like there's an arc to it.
Speaker: So I think that's the thing that draws me in the most. But if I were to break down my work at the moment, and this is, Interestingly, this is a thing that I've been really sitting with the last couple of weeks, last like three weeks, even before this, this question came up in the group chat.
Speaker: Um, cause I just kind of hit a wall. Like I just, I ran face first into this wall and I just, I'm at this moment where I just don't give a fuck about social media right now, you know?
Speaker: um and I've already decided this episode will probably come out like fucking October at this point. So I've already decided that I'm not going to put out any YouTube videos in July or August.
Speaker: Um, wow. Because what I, I, I feel like I don't have anything to say. Um, and as I've been sitting with that,
Speaker: I think that um I've been I've been speaking for so long that I haven't had any time to listen. And so consequently, like, I feel like what I'm saying is not important, inconsequential.
Speaker: And so the decision then becomes, do I continue to speak because that's how I make money and it's the easiest path forward? Or do I take a moment to stop and listen and sit with myself and figure out where I actually want my career to go? Wow. It's it's a hard one.
Speaker: Good for you. so so that's that's kind of a roundabout way to get to the answer, which is to say, I think if you asked me a month ago, Um, I would have said probably 50% craft.
Speaker: Uh, let's just, let's just take social media as an example, maybe, maybe 40% craft, 40% storytelling, 10% teaching, you know, ah like the storytelling and the teaching are, are somewhat interchangeable. i feel like at least in my YouTube videos, um,
Speaker: But I've realized that even though I tell myself the object always has to take precedence, that slowly over the course of last two and a half or three years, however long I've been making YouTube videos full time, um that's slowly that that ratio has slowly shifted to the point where the entertainment, the video, the doing the thing on a schedule, the running of a business.
Speaker: has overtaken the object in the craft. um And I think that's a big part of the reason why I'm in this moment of reorientation is is trying to figure out, like, i don't I don't think that's the thing I want.
Speaker: You know? Wow. That is... Eric. that is um That is amazing. but And congratulations for recognizing that because that's a really, really big shift It is a big shift. And, and to be clear, like I'm, I'm not saying that I think I'll quit YouTube tomorrow.
Speaker: You know, you may go back. Like, ah yeah, yeah. I, I, I don't know what it looks like, but what I do know at this moment is, um, the, the thing that I'm really sitting with is, um I, I have often made fun of and roasted American television for,
Speaker: not getting for getting to the end of a story and then just continuing because the thing's still making money. You know, like you, you get to the end of an art. You talked about this on a previous episode. I talk about it all the time because it's the worst possible thing that you could do to an entity, which is like, get to the end and go, yeah, but like, it's still profitable. So let's give it three more seasons to the point where it's just fucking drudgery.
Speaker: And I, it kills the magic. It kills the whole magic. Right. And, and do you guys know who Danny McBride is? Yep. Yeah. Have you watched the righteous gemstones?
Speaker: I have not. Oh, it's so fucking good. It's so good. Uh, you should watch it. all right I'm writing it down. So Danny, Danny McBride, writer, comedian, uh, TV guy.
Speaker: Um, The Righteous Gemstones is his most successful show, right? By far, leaps and bounds. Huge success on HBO. He was in the midst of writing the fourth season.
Speaker: And what he said he realized is he was he was writing the ends of these storylines. And so he decided like part of the way through filming that it was the end of the series.
Speaker: And he was just like, that's it. And HBO was like, are you sure you don't want to do because it's like it's working. And he was like, like, I'm concluding these stories like I got I got to end it here. And like, that's if if whenever the end comes on on YouTube or on social media for me,
Speaker: Like that's the thing that I want to do is recognize that it is the end and then refocus back to the craft. Again, I'm not saying I'm doing that in this moment. What I'm saying is I've realized the balance, those ratios has, has moved away from the object taking the priority.
Speaker: And I don't know.
Speaker: i'm I'm currently contending with how to reorient those ratios in a way that I feel comfortable with my career moving forward. Right. Right. Eric, that's really insightful of you. Self insightful. That's huge.
Speaker: Very few people take the time to do that and admit that to themselves because it's like you committed yourself to this thing and you went whole hog. But to to take a step back just based on yourself and be like, hmm, I don't know how I feel anymore.
Speaker: Like that was good then. But where who am I now? And I yes, in in who do I want to be in the future moving forward? You know, I think that's that's really important because I know if I know one thing, I know that I will continue to make things out of wood for the rest of my life.
Speaker: Mm hmm. and I'm i presumably I'm not going to make YouTube videos for the rest of my life, you know? Right. So, so what's the priority? Is it making money while it's there or is it continuing to develop skill and master the craft and hopefully has have a positive impact on the craft?
Speaker: Yeah. Well, go ahead, Connor. Yeah, no, I mean, it's what's the other amazing thing about this is you, what you have just identified is something that has a fear that I've had from the very beginning that something would come along and derail the focus on the work.
Speaker: And so like the idea of like sponsorship or anything like that, that is always, I've always just made the assumption that is going to be kryptonite for me because it will, it has the ability to distract from what it is that I'm wanting to achieve and wanting to do.
Speaker: so i I'm not quite sure where that came from. if that was ah yeah' I'm not sure what informed it, but I know it has always, always been there to just push away all sorts of things that are going to that potentially derail me from focusing on what it is that I'm really focusing on, which is exploring how high is up.
Speaker: Hmm. How far can I push this phrase that? How high is up is a good fucking question. cop God damn. What what are some of the things and Paul, I do want to hear your your answer to the question. But Conrad, what are some of the things as somebody who runs his own business and is not a part of ah social media as a as a business?
Speaker: and to like social You get business through social media, I presume, but i do yeah social media is not paying you directly. It's not no business. Yeah, no, no. So what are some of the distractions that either you're contending with now or have contended with in the past and have decided to push back against?
Speaker: Good question. So... In the world of social media, it has been a number of people asking for, hey, and this is small scale, but saying, hey, we've got this product.
Speaker: We're trying to find people that can help you know promote it, show it, whatever. you know We'll send you a box box of widgets and we want X number of you know whatever a month or whatever the parameters are.
Speaker: Are you interested? And I just flat out say no. I appreciate the invitation. um i use lots of products that lots of people make. If I love them, I'm happy to talk about them. I don't want anything for it. I just, because to me that just starts,
Speaker: it starts affecting how I think about things. And I don't wanna have to, like, I love the tools I've got and the people who have made them for me, i will promote them to the ends of the earth because I believe in i believe in it.
Speaker: um And that has that has really stopped happening, but there was a long period of time where that was pretty constant. so So what about outside of social media? So I think i was just go what I want to know is like people assume that being on social media is a distraction as a business entity, but but also running a business has a million distractions, whether like distractions existed before social media. Absolutely. So outside of outside of the social media venue, what are some of those things that you've had to push back against? Yeah. One of the really early, early decisions was to only go direct to customer.
Speaker: i will And I've had i had a lot of people like when Joe Steiner and I started this and we sort of, you know, kind of introduced ourselves to the world in whatever sense that might have meant.
Speaker: um I had phone calls from quite a few tool distributors or you know companies that distribute tools like all over the world saying, hey, heard about your product. um You know, what are your wholesale price? What are your wholesale pricing like? What's your whole set?
Speaker: What's your ah everything? You know, they want to know what the system was. And I just politely declined and I just said, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in having somebody else talk about my work.
Speaker: It's, yeah it's just not, I'm just not interested in that. If, if, and they've, everybody universally said, well, you can't do that. Like you won't, you won't, you won't survive. Like you won't be, you won't be able to build a business. Like, how are you going to build a business if you don't have somebody representing you?
Speaker: Well, I attended, you know, I went to England once a year for years and years. I went to California once a year for years and years and did various shows like Lee Nielsen shows were great. There were, ah there were enough little small shows and it was worthwhile to yeah to do those because I was not looking at this as quick, um, as a quick business.
Speaker: I was looking at this from the standpoint of I'm going grow this slowly organically um because it allows me then to ah adjust accordingly. Like if something blows up, trying to keep up with the demand of that can be catastrophic because then all of a sudden your risk goes off the charts high. if you' got to make massive investments. You need to hire people. You need to do all sorts of other things.
Speaker: And if then that just falls off, you're done. So I was very, very, um deliberate of about growing very, very, very slowly. And Joe, but you know, for the couple of years that we worked together, he was totally on board with that as well.
Speaker: um so So kind of avoiding the reseller thing. Everybody, all of those people and and and even customers too, were kind of surprised that that was, that I didn't go down that road.
Speaker: So even a gallery, I was, I actually, there was yeah I had some stuff at a gallery ah month ago. um I was helping out a friend who has a magazine. um And this gallery wanted to feature a number of the artists that were in the magazine over a you know period of time.
Speaker: And um they were all interested in you know what kind of percentage I would give them. i said, not giving you a damn thing. not None of this is for sale. like i I'm doing this. I'm displaying this because I'm a friend of Chris.
Speaker: And I really enjoy the work that they're doing. And I wanted to help him out because he asked. It's awesome. Yeah. So my friend Chris asked me to you know participate in this gallery exhibition. And I said, yeah, no problem. Happy to do it. And the gallery said, well, you know, what kind of a percentage? I mean, what happens if somebody wants to commission something? And I said,
Speaker: then you know send them my way, but not giving you a cut. That's not, that's like, why the hell would I do that? I understand why a gallery exists, but sure sure sure that's just i'm not I'm just not playing that game.
Speaker: yeah Because like in order to go through a gallery, i would have to add anywhere from 50 to 30% onto the cost of what I'm doing. Well, that screws over four years of people that are patiently waiting for work Yeah. So why Yes.
Speaker: It's so I recently this like me, this ah the the video that I interviewed, my former teacher is going to come out this next week.
Speaker: So whenever this comes out, people will have an idea of how many episodes we record ahead of time. um But he said something in that interview that like when I was asking for advice for people, you know, building a furniture business, one of his main points of of emphasis was don't grow too fast.
Speaker: You know, like, it's take your time. There's no reason to overextend yourself because in this business, it rarely works out because we're not because we're not scalable.
Speaker: Right? Like, no, that's right. You could do your work the way you do it. And it has interest. It has it has like there's there's a certain I don't even know what it is like. It's a spirituality to the objects because it's been handled and manipulated and and there's something about it.
Speaker: And the second it comes off a machine and a CNC line, there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not knocking it. I'm not trying to make a hierarchy, but it is a different object. So it's fundamentally but mental a different thing And and that that creation of an object with with spirit, that's not scalable.
Speaker: No. and No, excellent point. and And I think it's, I think part of the other challenge of a business, I mean, there's a whole other discussion to about how how does one run a one person business?
Speaker: Yeah. you're You're flopping hats, you're you're switching hats nonstop some days. um But this, it's ah such a huge component of is knowing, and this is what you just described earlier you If you go down this one road, yeah being aware of what you're giving up, what you're swapping out, right? We all have 100% that we can dedicate to those three areas that we were talking about. And if if one starts becoming more dominant and overshadowing the other ones, it's at their peril.
Speaker: And so continual continually just with recognizing, okay, this decision of of having a reseller impact all sorts of things that rightly or wrongly are really valuable to me. And I really cherish them. And I'm not willing to budge because they matter that much.
Speaker: And so just kind of identifying what what those things are. i mean, if if you're really um aware of that kind of stuff and you kind of plot it all out, I mean, a lot of businesses will actually almost build themselves out yeah it'll youre The path will be actually pretty clear because if you these are these are the things that I'm not willing to compromise on for whatever reason.
Speaker: These things I'm a little bit flexible on. These things I actually don't really care about. um it It starts becoming, it can become pretty clear of what you have, you know, a path forward or a path through.
Speaker: i agree with you 100%, but I do think we live in a time, and I don't just mean like 2025. mean, in the post-industrial age of America,
Speaker: where Growing a business slowly is not an option to 97 and a half percent of people who run a business. Cause it's just like, if you don't year one, fine, you made, you know, $15,000 year two.
Speaker: If you're not making 50, what the fuck are you doing? It's like, what do you, yeah you think you just made $15,000 last year. You think youre just magically going to fucking figure out how to quadruple what you just fucking made. That's not how it works. Stop. Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah. No, that's absolutely. So the first three years when Joe and I were starting the business, um I was still working full time. Yeah. So basically had to grow our business to another full time business, which meant I was effectively doing two full time businesses.
Speaker: Yep. And that's the advantage of youthful exuberance. a That's fair. That's fair. So, yeah. Yeah. All right, Paul.
Speaker: Hit us with it, buddy. You've been sitting patiently for a long time No, no. i've been I've been loving the conversation. ah Conrad, I definitely identify with your slow growth mentality.
Speaker: My science job... I have been at for 17 years, the same job, the same company. And we have c incredibly slow, consistent, safe growth.
Speaker: and And all of us believe in it. And now all of us have flourished and our families have benefited because of that slow, steady mentality. And I credit my CEO for having that benefit.
Speaker: mentality as part of his outlook in this crazy fucking world. He or he already went into the crazy world. He worked at crazy jobs and he knew that is not a sustainable, good, healthy path for families. And he's like, I'm going to make my own company. This is back in 2001.
Speaker: um I'm going to make my own company and we're going to do it our way. And we did. And the the eight of us or seven of us have been together for 17 years doing it our way.
Speaker: We own the company. We have no board of directors. No one tells us what to do. No one tells us how much to earn. It's up to us. And we are slow, steady, stable, consistent, and it's a wonderful job and I'll never fucking leave.
Speaker: I love that. Right. So ah Conrad, I... i I viscerally resonate with what you said. And I've taken that approach to my own copper pig. So for me, my percentage is like, I am mostly craft.
Speaker: I am definitely mostly craft. I just want to make things. Everyone says, when are you starting your YouTube? And I'm like, I'm not sorry. I know they're like, yeah, but you're leaving so much money on the table.
Speaker: I'm like, I don't care. hmm. I'm taking time off the table, time and enjoyment. I can't get that back. I have enough money. i have a J-O-B. So like, I don't need money.
Speaker: i need, I need to enjoy what I'm doing and feel good about it. So I would say I'm like 70% craft. 20% education and like 10% entertainment.
Speaker: And to be quite honest, I feel like I could do better with the entertainment part. Like, so I'm thinking like, you know, how can I be more engaging? How can I make this more accessible? Not, not for the sake of like making more money or whatever, but I think it would just draw people in more to the stories behind the pieces and make them feel like more a part of it.
Speaker: So I I'm actually working on trying to like on the entertainment piece. Like I'm thinking like, how can I be more engaging? Yeah. I think that's fair. You you do. um I don't think those ratios are incorrect.
Speaker: um But I do think it's a fair acknowledgement. Like we have conversations regularly about like, how do how are we going approach an episode differently? How are we going to change the arc of this episode? yeah How are we going to like in that that is entertainment, right? Like this podcast is entertainment.
Speaker: it's It's deep conversation, but it's it's education. And it's education. i mean It's education to an extent, but i think like i don't I want to separate entertainment out from necessarily being associated with a negative thing because entertainment can be a good thing. like listen that's fair Conversing with friends is entertainment, that even if you learn a thing.
Speaker: you know, and I think people identifying with our stories and our experiences, it's still entertainment. And you continue from the first episode to now you're infinitely better as a host of this podcast.
Speaker: And we talk about how to get better at it. Yeah, we do. do. But I also, I also think having listened to every single episode, right from the beginning, that the thing that can,
Speaker: always continue to draw me in was during the course of the episode, it it had me thinking. And it has me, it it was inspirational at times. It had me question my own understanding at times.
Speaker: So I don't know if that's educated, that is a component of education. It is. But to me, that is, that is what the, that I saw the real value of it is and which why I just enjoy participating in it so much because the opportunity to maybe, you know, inspire somebody or, or help help somebody maybe think about something differently, like you just did for me, like,
Speaker: That is amazing. I leave these podcasts sometimes ah changed. Like whatever we talk about has deeply lodged itself in my brain and I'm changed. I think about it in the future. I think about all the time.
Speaker: That's why I did this podcast, Eric. I mean, I love BSing with you. Don't get me wrong. sure But if it was just us BSing, no, no, but it was just us BSing, like, okay, I would run out of BS, but you and I and and Mary, we made the decision from the beginning.
Speaker: This is about the questions. I want to learn. I want to learn about this. Then I want to learn about that. Then we want to learn about this. And that's what, that's why I did this podcast is because I wanted to learn. So for me, it was education. Number one, apps without a doubt.
Speaker: Now the entertainment part you have taught me is so important to keeping people's attention. So yeah nobody wants to be David Charlesworth. and No, no. I've listened to you. You've made suggestions. I'm just shitting on a dead man. Yeah.
Speaker: Eric, you've made great suggestions and I've been all ears and I've tried them and and it's been, that's been great too. So I've learned as well. So I, I, if I may, I, I guess I'm still stuck on this. Um, the differentiating of education and entertainment and there are fair reasons in times to, to separate those two things, but like,
Speaker: These are the conversations we have when the microphone is off, right? Correct. The three of us. Pretty much. so And so, like, at what point is it just because we have a microphone in front of us that we then have to differentiate education and entertainment and not just, like, being humans together?
Speaker: No, no, no. It's a great scale, right? No, no, no. It is. It is. Absolutely it is. Yeah. I i think this is something that Paul and I've talked about kind of offline too is, you know, when you frame something as, you know, this versus this, it's, it pits them against each other immediately. When in reality, it's usually the two, it's usually both.
Speaker: Yeah. And it's just understanding, well, which one, which one takes the more dominant role in a particular instance and as long, and because you're continually juggling. Right. So it's not an, it's not an either or I think it's both. And just kind of recognizing that the teeter totter doesn't get too out of whack.
Speaker: So funny. You should say that Conrad, because at dinner I posed this episode to my family. And the first thing 17 year old daughter said was dad, this isn't an issue. All three can coexist.
Speaker: This isn't an, that's that Gen Z mindfulness right there, dog. Yeah. She said, you can be whatever the fuck you want to be, baby. She goes, all three coexist. And they just kind of like morph into like, like you said, what's dominant at this time in the conversation and switches to that. So it's it's far more fluid and connected and interconnected then.
Speaker: But like I said, from the beginning of the episode, Eric, get that fucking shit eating grin off your face. That just exists there, baby. Fuck off. I said at the beginning of the episode, so scientifically, it's good to like break things into their component parts, think about them separately, and then once you understand them, reemerge the issue. right so I think the the fact that we're coming to this consensus that they're kind of sloppily you know or happily and interconnected is really the the case.
Speaker: ah My wife said at the dinner table, ah it's a win-win. what like yeah Education, entertainment, craft, she goes, it's a win-win. There's something for everyone.
Speaker: yeah No matter who you are, no matter what you're looking for in social media, it's there. You just have to find your people. Well, that would be an interesting question to ask. Like what the ratio of of type of content, and let's just break it down into those three categories, right? Entertainment. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Speaker: Wait, Eric, before you ask this question, remember this question because I want it. Okay. But you just said there's these three categories, and I just have to add this. Okay.
Speaker: I have to. My wife's like, why only three? She's like, there's a fourth and it's Eric's OnlyFans. No. she For those of the video feed, Eric's in a nice little tank top right now.
Speaker: There's a fourth category. She's like, I don't post to social media because of' I'm not trying to entertain people. I'm not trying to educate them. And I'm not, you know, i'm not it's not about craft.
Speaker: I'm using social media because as a daily diary and for accountability. It's like a scrapbook of my life. I just post every day because it makes me feel accountable to do my run.
Speaker: And I can look back when I'm feeling down about myself and I look at all the times I ran and all the times I posted that I ran. i can kind of look back almost like it's like the modern equivalent of a photo album yeah for me.
Speaker: So that's a fourth category that hadn't even like considered coming into this episode. That's really interesting. Because like we've talked about how I feel or have felt in moments of like insecurity or anxiety of like looking around being like, okay, this exists because I made it, right? This exists.
Speaker: These exist. And like you there's physical evidence of the work that I've done in the life that I've lived. And if you don't work in a physical medium, like a photo book Instagram.
Speaker: Like I could see how that takes that same role. That's an interesting thing. I thought that was a great fucking take. It it caught me like oh like a curve ball. I, that hadn't even entered my brain. And I was like, I'm so glad I asked.
Speaker: So how many times do either of you guys, when you, you know, see somebody whose work you admire or you find entertaining, whatever, whatever it it was that drew you in, how often will you go to their Instagram page? I'm not on Facebook, but if, or their Facebook page and just spend five minutes or 10 minutes and just see who is this person? what are they about? What, what makes them tick? So do I.
Speaker: um i'm just I'm just wondering how many people do that because rarely. Yeah. ah So so it for me, I need multiple exposures because like because anybody can accidentally do a thing. Well, you know, like you can any anybody can accidentally make a hit. Fucking Marcy Playground was on the radio for a hot second. You know, like any anybody can accidentally do a thing.
Speaker: oh most yeah has a deep That was a deep cut. I feel like our audience is old enough. They know. They know. They're already hungry. They know.
Speaker: But if I see you do a thing two or three times well, then I'm like, okay, who's who's this person? let me Let me dip it. What I have... like Interesting or maybe not interestingly, but what I've noticed, what I find interesting is about my own self is even fully into my career on social media, I was still very hesitant to ever even like posts like like ah if my friends posted it, you know, hit them with a like, whatever.
Speaker: But if I see a funny thing, would just be like, huh, that's funny. Or, huh, that's interesting. And then I would just scroll past for whatever reason. Like I i almost wouldn't want to leave a footprint there, you know? and then And then it wouldn't be until I see the person enough.
Speaker: I see that their work is interesting and good and I follow. And then I would start to like their posts. Interesting. Interesting. Yeah, there's something about just like, I'm trying not to engage with social media, even though that's where my business exists.
Speaker: So Eric, I interrupted you. What were you going to say? So what I was wondering is we were talking about the ratios of of categories categories.
Speaker: posts, reels, whatever that exists on on social media. I'm wondering, like, we're out here as crafts people who care about the craft and want to be good at the craft bemoaning the fact that there's not more crafts people on Instagram posting good shit.
Speaker: I wonder how many crafts people are actually on Instagram. Like I wonder what the ratio of really good crafts people to really good crafts people who have Instagrams is because it's, it's probably like pretty fucking small.
Speaker: Yeah. I would imagine it in the, so I guess what I'm trying to link is like the ratio of people who go to social media for pure entertainment to the ratio of people who are posting on social media to entertain.
Speaker: i wonder how that relationship correlates. Similarly, I wonder how the relationship of like crafts people on social media to craft like people looking for high quality craft on social media correlates because we see nobody's posting good shit. But I feel like the number of people looking for good shit on social media is probably very small as well.
Speaker: Right. Right. Huh. Interesting. I don't know, Eric, I guess the, the, the, that the takeaway from that is, are you saying most people use social media to be entertained? Not necessarily to look for high quality craft.
Speaker: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that like, we're out here bitching and moaning that we see the woodworking world posting bullshit out there. um But I think probably the majority of people who stumble upon the maker universe side of social media are just looking for bullshit entertainment.
Speaker: Like they just want to be like, huh, I didn't realize you could build a chicken coop. That's cool. Swipe, you know, like that's it. Okay. Yeah. yeah Okay. so why so So maybe another question would be.
Speaker: If you woke up to tomorrow morning and and made a deliberate choice to say, i today I want to be inspired. I want to try and find work or something that I can really sink my teeth into, spend time with looking for something that's going to knock your socks off.
Speaker: yeah Where would you go? Like, how would you how would you go about that? I got you. I would go to ah the MFA or the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. I'd go to ah like a high-quality museum.
Speaker: Or I'd go to my saved items on Instagram that I've curated for like eight years. These are things that I caught in a moment and I was like, oh, God, that's good. Yeah.
Speaker: ah That is so fucking good. And I have about 100 and posts in that save item. It's almost like my own personalized inspiration bank. And I just go there and I just like, oh my God, it blows my head off because I've curated this for eight years and it's like inspiration central.
Speaker: That's where I go. Would you ever call a friend? So like, would you ever you know talk to somebody and say, hey, I'm i'm just looking for something.
Speaker: Anybody that you've come across who just kind of knocked your, I mean, that happens with music all the time. And so I'm wondering if there's a similar thing that happens within the, or could happen, I mean,
Speaker: it It would actually be a really interesting thing to do to say, hey, or or to be in an environment where I could just, you know, if I if i know that that's something that you're open to, just say, hey, I came across this thing and fire off to you and say, check this out. I think you'll dig this.
Speaker: That's such an interesting reversal, though, because a lot of my friends and I will do that, right? They'll we'll be like, hey, saw this person. This person is making dope shit. Like, check them out.
Speaker: And that's great. That's wonderful. And so there's a lot of... new stimuli coming my way often. um But I've never tried the reverse where I go like, hey, um just I'm looking for something.
Speaker: like what What are you looking at right now? you know show me Show me something interesting. Show me show me what's inspiring. Don't show me what you think will inspire me. Show me what inspire inspires you. yeah yeah That's an interesting question.
Speaker: Conrad, I've never thought that way either. Never. Not once. That's a very interesting question. I know like... There are certain resources that I think are um I don't know that inexhaustible is the right way to phrase it, but books like good visual books that I can come back to and look at and thumb through and I might see the same things over and over.
Speaker: but depending on the context, I might see it slightly differently. Right. Or how you're feeling. Yeah. Yeah. and and you are And it might like one line of it might jump out to me in a different way that I didn't think about before. Cause I wasn't looking for it. But now with this piece, I see that and I can pull that element and manipulate it in this other way. Right. Um, and I think similarly, I tend to go to similar people's work on social media.
Speaker: um like the first person, when you said like, Where do you look when when you when you just want to see something that just kind of that you just fall in love with? um There's this lady, Makono Smith.
Speaker: um I think she's out in California somewhere. We've chatted a couple of times on Instagram, but never like lengthy conversations. um And she just she makes these tiny little objects.
Speaker: um i I know she's Asian. I don't know what her her um background is. And it seems to me and from my viewpoint of ignorance that that heavily influences her experience.
Speaker: not only aesthetic, but the scale with which she works, they're all very small objects, but they're just so fucking beautiful. Every goddamn one of them. And I constantly, I'm like, your, your work is literally perfect.
Speaker: And I just like, she'll just do these little turnings, you know, or is she'll carve a little spoon or make a little bowl. And I'm like, I don't know what it is, but your lines in your forms are gorgeous. And I just go and look at them and I'm like,
Speaker: Like to your point, Conrad, I'm like, that's what social media should be, man. Yeah. It's just, you see the thing and you're like, fuck, I'm so glad that she's making things. Yeah. Because the world needs more of what she makes.
Speaker: And I can't wait to run out in the shop and take, take that. and and see where it pushes me, right? or see, yeah. All right. I have ah now and an orthogonal question to all of what we've discussed. Orthogonal?
Speaker: Meaning like another axis that we haven't touched on yet. You're just going to fucking casually drop orthogonal in this thing? Sorry. Wasn't that a dinosaur?
Speaker: I work with my hands for living. I don't know fucking orthogonal I have another question, Eric, that that bears on everything. We couldn't afford orthogonal work when I was a teenager. That's when my teeth were all fucked up. Eric, you're very fond of Venn diagrams, so let's make a Venn diagram out of this shit.
Speaker: Venn diagrams and Punnett squares, that's all I got, guys. I swear every episode, Eric talks about a Venn diagram.
Speaker: Eric, ah what's the Venn diagram between these these types of things? Like ah whether social media is a craft or you're using it for entertainment or education, how does that interact with money?
Speaker: Does one make more money than another? Well, yeah. I mean, the wider the audience, the more the more money is to be made, right? So which so which is, yeah, go ahead. Well, so in this, well, to Conrad's earlier example of like, if you're making objects one by one, like,
Speaker: business people will tell you you can't run a business that way because you need to produce for a wider audience so it's more consumable. And similarly, like if I'm making one piece of furniture at a time, that's even if you're good at what you're doing.
Speaker: You're not, it's not going to, it's not going to pay the way you think it's going to pay if you haven't been there. um and And so making some consumable part of the business for a wider audience makes more money, hands down.
Speaker: So, yeah, but what I'm talking about is like, Can you make more money if you featured Kraft? Can you make more money if you featured and an entertainment page? Or can you to make more money... For social media specifically. Yeah, or do you make more money as an educator on social media?
Speaker: no There there are people... I don't know about more, but there are people who make a lot of money in the education field. Like there's a ton of science channels out there, you know, and they and they are in the millions of subs with hundreds of thousands to millions of views and of video.
Speaker: um There's entertainment components to that, you know, kind of like I think Bill Nye was kind of the archetype for that, you know, and and that's great. Like Bill Nye taught a lot of science to a lot of young people, including myself.
Speaker: um So I think there's value there. The broader audience is entertainment because everybody just wants to check the fuck out sometimes like we're we're no different, you know, like listening to music again, like listening to to interesting, engaging new music is great. If you did that, if you did nothing but that it would turn into noise because you can't consume and process all of it. So we fall back on shit that we already know, which is just then entertainment.
Speaker: You know, like it's it's it's it's not numbing, but it's it's comforting. um And the craft, I mean, niche is so small.
Speaker: It's so small. ah You're you're never going to build massive audiences unless you go. the, the route of a couple of particular YouTubers who I, I won't mention by name, but I think we can intuit who I'm going to mention lives in the state of Pennsylvania.
Speaker: Uh, and, and that is, that's, that's pure entertainment. And you know what I can't knock somebody who, whose aim is to run a business and not to,
Speaker: um move the craft forward like that's fine too i think there's space for that too okay um another question that came up can you compensate for a deficit in one area by being bet extra good or way better in another area yeah that's what charisma is dog
Speaker: that's what The kids call it the Riz. Yes, 100%. You can be a very mediocre craftsperson and do really well, even if outside of social media, even running a business because you can sell an object.
Speaker: Does that set the craft back? No, I think those people have always existed. And those people will always exist. See, Conrad, I feel like you you would think that does set the craft back. You're using the craft as your fucking bitch to make money. You're not trying to advance it. You're fucking using it like a cheap, you know, whatever. Yeah, I think... What a bite of the tongue.
Speaker: You're bleeding out your mouth.
Speaker: I think if i think that that for me, the danger has always been that if it gets to a scale where it is that is the dominant thing, I do think it is possible then for the for the craft to to then suffer.
Speaker: um because of that. because so that the Accessibility is a really important component. So if you're if you're looking you're looking for inspiration, but you don't know where to go, then what then what do you do? Likewise, if you're wanting to get into woodworking or any craft-based thing, and you you know you find um you get some information and you find it,
Speaker: if If you are inclined to think, okay, this was really great. What's the next? What's next what's the next thing? What's the next whatever? What's the next aspect to it? And so you're continually you know wanting to figure out how high is up, right? You push the bar somewhere.
Speaker: you You try and get to it. You get to it and you go, oh, this is great. I love this. Push it a little more. and see where you go. That may not be how everyone operates.
Speaker: But I think if you, there's a point at which if people don't have access to inspiration or don't have access to um being able to see what really, truly exceptional work even looks like, even if it's in their own field or not, um they stop even wondering, well, what is even possible?
Speaker: And I, that, that, mean, I'm probably making a lot more of it than I than i should, but when that disappears, that just sends up a red flag for me of i kind there's the it's It feels like a little bit like it's a bit of a slippery slope.
Speaker: And if everything becomes about entertainment and monetizing this platform, then what you're saying, like the loss of the excellence in lieu of money and fame, that's the slippery slope you're talking about. Yeah, I think so. like i i think it's...
Speaker: I think there's real value in, in, um, you know, somebody who says, yeah you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to spend and my lifetime trying to figure out and get really, really good at this thing, making this thing and come hell or high water. That's, that is my focus. There's, there's going to be a little meanders, you know, yeah have kids, get married, whatever life goes on, whatever. But if that is, if if that is singularly the focus, um,
Speaker: i like i I know a lot of people who dave they've made those kinds of choices and it it it it feels like that the the idea of that, even knowing that that exists as an option,
Speaker: Needs to be preserved. If that makes, I'm not sure if I'm making sense. No, no, no, you are. And I, and I don't, I don't disagree with you. Um, and I admit that there is more noise now than at least I've ever seen in my life. Oh, Eric. Yeah. So much. Yes. There's a ton of noise, but.
Speaker: I also don't think that maybe it's not giving enough credit to, or maybe it's not putting enough responsibility on the, the viewer, the, the, the taker in of social media, the consumer that it's on them, that it it is incumbent upon them to take some responsibility for how they from reverse and how they go about it. And they have the capacity to identify bullshit from not bullshit.
Speaker: That's a good point. And that's like, it's it's you can't you can't.
Speaker: You can't be spoon fed everything all the time, always. And like, there's always going to be bullshit out there. And I think, you know, 30 years ago before social media, there was a lot of like you could go to craft shows and there was a lot of bullshit and people go, well, you're a woodworker, you're running a business, you're selling shit.
Speaker: And like those things still exist. And I think we would still be like, well, that's not that's not high craft. That's not like the real craft. Yeah. was that damaging things. I think you put some responsibility on the viewer to say if you want to go do this and if you want to be good at it,
Speaker: then wade through the muck and figure out what's good and what's not. And you'll make mistakes and it'll be a struggle, but it was a struggle for me in the beginning. And I think Paul, probably for you, Conrad, I'm not sure. No, for sure. yeah to to To go like, oh shit, this is the thing I want to do.
Speaker: How do I find the people who are really fucking good at it Eric, that's a really interesting point. That's very good. That's not on the maker, the the social media makers, but also the viewers. yeah that's it There's a co-responsibility, I think.
Speaker: Oh, absolutely there is. yeah And how are the how do people learn the skills to be able to call bullshit when that needs to be called?
Speaker: So that's the skill of learning how to... like We've all talked about how we self-critique our own work, right? How do we know... yeah That's a component of that. like So if i look at if I look at somebody else's work and I go...
Speaker: Oh yeah, there's some things about that that are interesting, but there's some things about that that that's just not going to fly. And so, but so how, so how do you learn to know better? You, you learn and you make mistakes, but you learn and you take the time and it takes years. It takes so much fucking time to figure it. It's like when you were a kid, you thought your dad was the fastest fucking man on the planet, right? You could have beat that fucker in a foot race. No way, no how.
Speaker: And then at some point you went, oh, shit, actually, he's just kind of overweight and he's an alcoholic. I could do this. I could backpedal faster about him. You know, like you've you look like but that. Take that took 16 years.
Speaker: right Right. Right. Right. It just takes time. And I think we like and that thing that we' content that's why the slow business is helpful. Sure.
Speaker: Sure. Because it, it does, it actually does fend off a whole bunch of mistakes. think. Yeah. Yeah. It gives you time to make mistakes and figure it all out. I think that's, that's maybe more than anything.
Speaker: That's the thing that frustrates me about social media is the belief that if it doesn't happen tomorrow, it's not going to happen. And it's just like, dog, you're gonna suck tomorrow. I've been doing this.
Speaker: I have been chasing this dream for coming up on 20 years. And they' there are days where I'm still like, I don't know that I'm very good at this. you know? Yeah. It's just what happens. And it took a long time to make anything. I was talking to my mom on the drive home today, and she was talking to somebody about who liked the YouTube channel. And ah this person asked, they were like, well, was he always ah good at furniture making?
Speaker: And even my mom was like, nah he sucked at the beginning, dog, but like he figured it out. You know, it just takes time and years in practice. Yeah. All right. So, um, we're, we're, we're getting long in the tooth at this point, but I would like to end this conversation because it's been fascinating.
Speaker: Really. I've learned a lot. I'd like to end this on a lightning round, what we call. Okay. Okay. And what that means is y'all motherfuckers got to keep your answers short. That's what that means. Okay. Neither of our strong suits.
Speaker: Well, that's what we're going to fucking do. No caveat right ah no caveats. You have like ah just one sentence or or three. How many clauses do we get? How many sub clauses? Okay. here Is this dash available? All right. Here's the lightning round questions. i have three lightning round questions and then we're going to move on to the after show. And and Conrad...
Speaker: We're going to take your question in the after show and I'll ask you to to to to to say it after the lightning round. Okay. Lightning round questions. Ready? Number one.
Speaker: The dominance of short form addictive content is evidence that entertainment is really the core of social media. True or false? Eric. Sure.
Speaker: I can't dispute that. Yeah. Conrad. True. Yeah, I think it's indisputable. Number two, can something be considered craft, like good craft, if it's optimized for likes, trends, or algorithms?
Speaker: Absolutely. i think
Speaker: that there is craft in itself in that. learn learning how Learning how to manipulate it there is craft in that. I would say you can have a good piece of craft and be a good sales and marketer at the same time.
Speaker: That's what the the world's best artists who are, sorry, no, I didn't mean that. world's world's The world's highest earning artists. That's what I meant to say. The coonses of the world. good it both Statement number three is the rise of edutainment, Eric.
Speaker: diluting real education or making it more, is it diluting education or is it making it more accessible to the masses? Making it more accessible. It's a stepping stone.
Speaker: Yeah, I agree. And I would agree too, because Vicky said to me at dinner, she's like, the reason bees. No clauses, Paul. No, just short. The reason I keep bees and have chickens is because I was intrigued by these very aesthetic profiles that made it look so wonderful and so beautiful. And and that's what hooked me to get more into it for real. and not The romance of it.
Speaker: Yeah. So it's the entertainment piece hooked my shit and pulled me in. And then I actually cared enough to get into the real ah nitty gritty of it. And I was like, yeah that's a great fucking point. It's because i it's because somebody told a good story. Yep.
Speaker: Okay. So Conrad, Conrad, why don't you go first? You know, hearing all this discussion, you know, you and I started the episode like fucking craft. There's nothing else, man.
Speaker: Everyone sucks.
Speaker: like That's definitely where I came from. How, where are you now with, yeah ah where have you moved and where are you now? Yeah, I've moved. I've definitely, I think, yeah, swapping out the word storytelling for the word entertainment. It's a, it's a semantic in a way, but I think it's actually a really, think it's a really important thing I got to ponder.
Speaker: It doesn't feel as cheap when you call it storytelling, you know? Yeah, no, but no, exactly. And I mean, stories are entertaining. I mean, a good story is entertaining. And that's one of the yardsticks to evaluate it, right?
Speaker: Yeah. So, yeah, I think that's, yeah, this is precisely why this is such a great podcast for me. it It is because it gets you. Me too. It for it helps me to rethink things.
Speaker: Well, for myself, I've moved a lot from those old days of being like pissed off by, you know, influencers and whatever. Like, it i clearly recognize things are way more nuanced and way more...
Speaker: like swirled together and convoluted and there's pros that I never considered. And I think I was just in a, in a small little echo chamber with the walls up, you know, seeing craft is just one thing. And now I feel like, you know, my world is opened.
Speaker: So, um, that, that may actually be, have been informed by the fact that, um, you and I probably spent a great number of years exploring craft without,
Speaker: social media or the or the internet, frankly. So the way we figured some things out and discovered things was a lot more confined. And that that informed our outlook, our bias.
Speaker: And I think I would, yeah absolutely, Conrad, I couldn't agree more. And I would like to leave you with something Eric said in this episode. As you think about, like, have you moved from thinking about this?
Speaker: um I would say, who are you now? For the listeners, I would ask yourself, who are you now in terms of these attributes? And who do you want to be moving forward?
Speaker: That is like insanely profound. Did I say that? You did? Yeah, you did. I remember.
Speaker: Eric, whether or not your short term memory is shot is a different question. But to me, that that's that's a huge question that we can leave off this episode. Who am I now and who do I want to be in terms of those those multiple elements in my in my life as a maker or who I am on social media?
Speaker: I think that is brilliant. I'm going to be thinking about that a lot. ah We're going to go to the after show and Conrad, why don't you tell the viewers what our question for the after show is.
Speaker: If social media disappeared, would woodworking crafts people survive?
Speaker: Oh, we have a debate club in the after show, bitches.
Speaker: Holy shit, that's stinger. End on the stinger. the show If you want the after show and you want the video feed, all you have to do is subscribe to our Patreon and we will see you there. Thanks, friends.
Speaker: Bye. See ya. Bye, everyone.
Speaker: I like this elongated exit right now. Well, I couldn't find the stop button. It was off screen.
