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Episode 39 - Why STORYTELLING Is Your Most Valuable Skill (Part 1)
1.6k Plays24 days ago
Are you a good storyteller? Do you tell the story behind your art so that the audience undertstands and CONNECTS with your work? Storytelling is the KEY to making people care about WHY you make art and WHAT IT IS YOU'RE TRYING TO SAY with it. People buy the work for the STORY of the art and the maker. If we know storytelling is so important, why don't we spend more time and energy learning how to be a better storyteller??
Join us for a GREAT EPISODE featuring TWO GREAT STORYTELLERS, co-host KONRAD SAUER and guest JUSTIN MABIE. Justin has DEDICATED HIS CREATIVE LIFE toward storytelling on his amazing youtube channel, CALL ME MABIE, loaded with empassioned documentaries on talented artists within the maker community.
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467
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Transcript
Introduction and Roles
00:00:00
Konrad Sauer
Round two.
00:00:01
Stor-Erock
laughs
00:00:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we're back. Your favorite woodworking, not woodworking podcast. Woodworking is bullshit. I'm your host, Paul Jasper, scientist by day, woodworker by night, and I'm joined with not one, not two, but three co-hosts today.
00:00:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
First up, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator. I think you knew he was in the chair. But today we also have two of our close friends. First off, you know Conrad Sauer from episode four, Conrad, plain maker extraordinaire, and always in my ear about all these excellent topics we talk about.
00:00:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
as well as Justin, maybe Justin, welcome to the show.
00:00:59
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Thanks Paul.
The Art of Storytelling
00:01:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thanks, Paul.
00:01:03
Stor-Erock
You're not going to give him the voice again?
00:01:05
Konrad Sauer
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
00:01:06
Stor-Erock
Paul fucked over our first recording and now we had to restart. And Justin got very self-conscious about his, I want to say like Frogger from the Little Rascals impersonation.
00:01:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that
00:01:15
Konrad Sauer
Mm-hmm.
00:01:16
Stor-Erock
i don't know what that was.
00:01:18
Big Daddy J. Bonez
it was It was me imper impersonating Paul impersonating me from the previous episode that was just like, why would anybody remember 10 seconds?
00:01:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
thanks paul
00:01:22
Stor-Erock
It was...
00:01:27
Big Daddy J. Bonez
of Anyway, here we are.
00:01:30
Stor-Erock
It was an echo feedback loop that spiraled out.
00:01:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, well, ah why are Justin and Conrad on today's episode? Well, I'm going to answer that for you. Because today's question, I think both of them can speak to quite well.
00:01:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So without further ado, we're going to start like we did old school with the question up front. And then I'll explain why I think Justin and Conrad are so are going going to help us address this question.
00:02:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, Today's episode is about the importance of storytelling. This topic has been something that I know Eric and I have talked about at length and Conrad and I have talked about at length and Justin, well, Justin's whole artistic thing, his documentary um maker channel is about storytelling. du Justin, how many yeah documentaries did you say you've made?
00:02:29
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I believe it's 35 to 36-ish that range.
00:02:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So obviously Justin has a deep, deep passion for telling people's stories.
00:02:34
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:02:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Conrad, you know, you and I have had many conversations about with art specifically as the focus. I think it's important to tell the story of that art object as part of imbuing it with the meaning that that.
00:02:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
gave it life in the first place, right? Because people
Personal Passion for Documentaries
00:03:00
Konrad Sauer
yeah
00:03:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
understand that story.
00:03:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They value that story. They connect to the art pieces with that story. so So you can see I'm forming like two axes, like Justin's whole sort of artistic career with the documentary making is about the importance of storytelling in life, like people's stories about their life.
00:03:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And Conrad, you know, I think we're going to explore a little more on the side of storytelling as it pertains to what we make in craft.
00:03:26
Konrad Sauer
Thank you.
00:03:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's kind of the the big separation between the two major questions we're going to take on today. And I think this is a really important topic for everyone and and and in terms of both of those.
00:03:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So i as you know, being a biologist, the first thing that I started wondering about storytelling was why is this so important to humans? Like, why do we care about stories so much? Storytelling is huge.
00:03:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah Podcasts are about storytelling. like Every TV show is about storytelling. when you When you have dinner around your dining room table, what do you do? You tell stories, right? Most of the time.
00:04:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why are we so programmed to tell stories? And to that, I i come to the evolution of humans. And over the, say, 300,000 years, humans have been on this planet as a distinct species from the early hominid. you know Language and the ability to tell these stories.
00:04:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
has been something special about humans. um if language and spoken communication, let's say it's, you know, estimates are, it's probably around 100,000 years old, it only makes sense that it's spoken word became the way we communicate, the way we record history, the way we teach each generation, because this is like prior to writing, prior to obviously computers, prior to even some graphic ideas.
00:04:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
spoken word and being able to tell the next generation, don't eat that or don't do that. That's bad for you. Like, or and, you know, and through the process of story has been part of the human nature, right? For for millennia, ah hundreds of millennia, right?
00:05:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So it doesn't surprise me that when we come to the idea of storytelling, ah we as humans find it very compelling and we do it all the time, even in modern times.
00:05:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, um, storytelling, like I said, we're going to slice it in two ways. Storytelling as sort of a part of a meaningful life in a general sense and storytelling more about your art
Woodworking and Community Stories
00:05:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and craft. So with, john I'd like to start Justin with you, like you have dedicated your life to telling people's stories, like, or a big part of your life, not your entire life, but a big part of your, your passion is dedicated to telling the stories of others.
00:05:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
why Why do you think you were drawn to that specifically?
00:06:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It happened at a woodworking conference years ago.
00:06:06
Big Daddy J. Bonez
kind of fell into the whole woodworking maker world without being a woodworker or maker myself. And I went to this woodworking convention knowing nothing about woodworking, nothing. and I didn't know any content creator makers, let alone woodworkers outside of the content world.
00:06:24
Big Daddy J. Bonez
But as different makers kept approaching me, You know, i'm meeting these super kind for starters, people who are of course all individuals in their own sense, both in their work, but also as people.
00:06:40
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And I found everybody to be so interesting that I wanted to, I wanted everybody else to kind of feel what I felt in that room, but I also came at it from a sense of what goes into woodworking.
00:06:58
Big Daddy J. Bonez
because someone like me or maybe my parents or friends back in high school or whatever, we like, we don't know these things. We don't know why a chair costs, what a chair costs that Greg Pennington would make at the time that I visited Greg Pennington shop and he knows the story.
00:07:14
Big Daddy J. Bonez
i was just like, great old people chairs, you know? And then I sat there and recorded him make making one for a week. And I'm like, Oh my God, this is beautiful. And like, I,
00:07:25
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That was kind of the first time I really had an understanding.
00:07:30
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And that was something I wanted to help share as well. so
00:07:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But like, why, why did you want to like, why were you so like energized to tell the story about these makers? I mean, I think a lot of people would have that curiosity, like, oh, that's curious. That's interesting. you know But like, dude, it took on a whole life for you.
00:07:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I mean, 37 documentaries. Imagine the time you've spent like traveling, getting to know those people, editing, right?
00:07:57
Stor-Erock
o That's an interesting question. What is the amount of time you've spent?
00:07:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It
00:08:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and like it
00:08:01
Stor-Erock
We can get there later.
00:08:02
Stor-Erock
but
00:08:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
it like grabbed you like by the collar and fucking shook you. like You have to do this. like why why is it Why was storytelling like that?
00:08:09
Konrad Sauer
and and and also And also was the instinct to tell the story versus, holy shit, I want to make that chair.
00:08:16
Stor-Erock
That's an interesting differentiation.
00:08:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:08:19
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Well, i
00:08:19
Konrad Sauer
Or both. Or both. Like, im yeah, now I'm curious about...
00:08:22
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, i think to answer both questions... I really think it was maybe the sense of community that I was feeling and being welcomed into as somebody who didn't, I mean, especially at that time, but I mean, I only like just now dabble in in this kind of thing, um, woodworking wise.
00:08:31
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right, right, right.
00:08:44
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Um, but I was being welcomed in like without any question whatsoever. And I thought that was really unique and special and come to find,
00:08:56
Big Daddy J. Bonez
All of you are unique and special, at least to me, maybe not your mother's, but, um,
00:09:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, we're unique and special everyone, actually.
00:09:02
Stor-Erock
Well, just Justin, when you first, like, so when you went to that woodworking conference, you said, um, you were already doing photography, I assume.
00:09:04
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:09:11
Big Daddy J. Bonez
yeah.
00:09:14
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:09:15
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Correct. I was working for April Wilkerson at the time making tutorial videos. So it wasn't anything like I was doing. They were kind of more. direct, I guess you would say it was a, it was a camera on a tripod, single camera, not a lot of, uh, I guess dynamic because it's meant to be straightforward.
00:09:25
Stor-Erock
Okay.
00:09:30
Stor-Erock
But but you were working in the medium, your photography, videography, sound editing, all the things.
00:09:35
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Correct. Yeah.
00:09:38
Stor-Erock
And
Storytelling in Craft and Life
00:09:39
Stor-Erock
so you came to this conference and you met these people and maybe like I guess I'm wondering the same question as Conrad of like.
00:09:39
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Absolutely.
00:09:48
Stor-Erock
you saw this thing happening and, and you felt invited into this community and your response, interestingly, wasn't, I want to make a chair with Greg Pennington. Your response was, I want to record. I want to watch Greg Pennington make a chair.
00:10:02
Stor-Erock
Like there's, there is a story.
00:10:02
Konrad Sauer
or Or document, documented.
00:10:04
Stor-Erock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:10:05
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:10:05
Stor-Erock
There's a story to be told there.
00:10:07
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:10:07
Stor-Erock
And I want to get at the heart of like, I want to understand why he makes chairs. I don't want to understand how he makes chairs.
00:10:13
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:10:13
Stor-Erock
And I think that's the reverse order of what like Paul and Conrad and I typically do. We want to know how first and then years later we go, oh, why the fuck does he make chairs?
00:10:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:10:23
Stor-Erock
That's interesting too. Oh,
00:10:24
Konrad Sauer
Right, right, right.
00:10:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah, totally.
00:10:25
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:10:26
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Well, Eric, in my documentary about you, there's a photo of you as a child ah rebuilding a deck with your dad, I believe it was.
00:10:35
Stor-Erock
oh yeah.
00:10:36
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And that kind of father-son moment was something I dreaded.
00:10:44
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I hated being in the sun with loud tools and just getting dirty and dusty.
00:10:44
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:10:47
Stor-Erock
Interesting.
00:10:49
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It was not for me. So it's like, I think of it like big wave surfing kind of, where it's like, I'm never going to be a big wave surfer, but that does look cool.
00:10:55
Konrad Sauer
Wow.
00:10:58
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It'd be cool to like, you know, show that off, be be a part of showing that off.
00:11:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:11:04
Big Daddy J. Bonez
But I don't know if that's something I can do. So it was more, a lot of it was admiration too.
00:11:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Huh.
00:11:11
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I mean, a ton of it's admiration.
00:11:14
Konrad Sauer
Interesting.
00:11:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
and and And Justin, it tapped into your the skills you had.
00:11:16
Konrad Sauer
that's That's really cool.
00:11:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You had the videography skills and the photography skills and the editing skills. And you're like, this kind of fits with what I, like this is what I can bring and i find this compelling.
00:11:30
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, my favorite class in school was the documentary class. And like, that's not really at the time, you know, way to be lucrative about that.
00:11:36
Konrad Sauer
Okay.
00:11:42
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I didn't really have any ideas of what I'd want to make documentaries about. So working, yeah.
00:11:47
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense then actually if your skill set was that type of work, then you all of a sudden, I'm guessing you discovered this community of people that were very open, willing to invite you in and kind of had that holy shit moment of, wow, here's an entire group of people that are making things that are interesting.
00:11:58
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Exactly.
00:12:07
Konrad Sauer
They're passionate about what they're doing.
00:12:07
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Exactly.
00:12:09
Konrad Sauer
And this would be a good opportunity for me to tell their stories. That's interesting.
00:12:15
Stor-Erock
So
00:12:15
Konrad Sauer
um Is that right?
00:12:15
Big Daddy J. Bonez
exactly it.
00:12:16
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:12:17
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That's exactly it, yeah.
00:12:18
Konrad Sauer
Cool.
00:12:18
Stor-Erock
Justin, when you, when you stumbled upon our community of people, um,
00:12:19
Konrad Sauer
That's really cool.
00:12:25
Stor-Erock
Did it was it a moment of like, holy shit, there's this untapped well of stories to be told? Because like, I imagine that part of the difficulty of being a documentarian is not necessarily like how to cut the story together, but finding the story that's interesting enough to drive the thing itself.
00:12:44
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:12:45
Stor-Erock
Like, like, yeah it has to be a self contained interesting story.
00:12:49
Konrad Sauer
You got to find interesting people.
00:12:49
Stor-Erock
And Yeah, like that's got to be half the work, right?
00:12:51
Konrad Sauer
It's it, it is. Yeah.
00:12:54
Stor-Erock
And so when you came into the community like and you looked around, was it... I guess what I'm wondering is like, was it a thing of... you you clearly articulated this feeling of welcoming and warmth and love.
00:13:10
Stor-Erock
Was this your attempt to contribute to the community so that it was a reciprocal relationship? Or was it a feeling of like, holy shit, there's so many stories to tell here?
00:13:24
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think starting it, truthfully, it was kind of like more along the lines of I want to be a catalyst to help share this person's story is what i was kind of trying to get at earlier.
00:13:37
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:13:39
Big Daddy J. Bonez
um
00:13:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Justin, that's so unselfish.
00:13:40
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Because I don't know how this person can otherwise get their story out there and have that be told.
00:13:43
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:13:48
Big Daddy J. Bonez
There's not really like... an affordable or realistic way to do that. And when you're choreographing your own content on, especially Instagram and like, we all have to do it. There's no other way to, unless you're going to hire a videographer to do that, to do your stories for you, you know, we're all showing what we want to show.
00:14:08
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Um, I'd never show anything that anybody doesn't want to show, but you know, here's, here's a whole new look at who this person is, which is why I make a point to also take them outside of the shop and you show me around like what's important to you.
00:14:23
Big Daddy J. Bonez
um so that we get more who you are as a person and can connect to your work even more. Yeah.
00:14:29
Konrad Sauer
That's fantastic.
00:14:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Justin, that's like fucking altruism.
00:14:31
Konrad Sauer
That's a very, yeah, that's great.
00:14:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:14:36
Konrad Sauer
That's really cool.
00:14:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
That's amazing.
00:14:37
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Anyway, enough about me.
00:14:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, no, it's not enough about you. You're on the hot seat, baby. Get, strap in.
00:14:47
Konrad Sauer
Buckle up.
00:14:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Justin, what, when you tell someone's story,
00:14:50
Konrad Sauer
That's cool.
00:14:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And you nail it. Let's say, I know, like, you're very self critical. So you'll never, you'll never say nailed that. But on some, you know, I'm sure there's some of your documentaries where you got closer to the mark than others. And you're like, yeah, yeah.
00:15:10
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, what does it bring you to tell good story? Like, what does it make you feel?
00:15:19
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think if I, mean, kind of going back to your point there about like me being like, Oh, I don't know if that was good enough or whatever. if I make someone feel something, especially the subject of the documentary, like if they're happy with it, then I'm happy with it I don't really care how the audience perceives it.
00:15:39
Big Daddy J. Bonez
If it gets these views or less views, like that's not really what I'm in it for. So if the person that I'm covering is happy that I'm happy. Um, And I, does that answer your question really?
00:15:52
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Like that, like that's.
00:15:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:15:53
Konrad Sauer
but that's That's interesting because you're you're you've got this larger audience, but the person, to say it crassly, but you've got one customer, one client, the person that you are interviewing in that moment.
00:16:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:16:05
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:08
Konrad Sauer
And your only job is um to give them your undivided attention. And that's not common. And it's really, really great to hear
00:16:20
Stor-Erock
But that's also not dissimilar from what we do in commission work.
00:16:24
Konrad Sauer
Exactly.
00:16:25
Stor-Erock
Like we put that shit on the Internet. We put it in magazines. We take it to shows, et cetera, et cetera. But the only opinion that matters is the person who bought the fucking thing.
00:16:31
Konrad Sauer
the person you're working for. yeah that's right.
00:16:34
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:16:34
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. So that's that's really's that's really cool that you've done that.
00:16:35
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That's awesome, yeah
00:16:38
Konrad Sauer
you've You've maintained that individually for that person, but also recognized, obviously, that there is a larger appeal of that, but that's not the primary driver.
00:16:50
Konrad Sauer
Which is that to me is, that to me is an integrity issue.
00:16:50
Big Daddy J. Bonez
yeah.
00:16:53
Konrad Sauer
And hats off to you, man. that's That's great. That's really cool.
00:16:57
Stor-Erock
Don't give him too much credit yet. I mean, you know, like I said.
00:16:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, I just...
00:16:59
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
00:17:01
Konrad Sauer
No, it's just, that's so unusual. That's not common. That's not normally the
Emotional Impact of Storytelling
00:17:06
Konrad Sauer
way that that goes.
00:17:06
Stor-Erock
So, Justin, I want to ask you a question that you're probably going to buck against, but I want to hear it from your perspective, not worrying about other people.
00:17:19
Stor-Erock
What is the documentary that you've made? Like, ah I'm going to say, what's your favorite documentary? But that's not really what I'm getting at. Like what's what's the video that you've made about somebody where you you felt your voice come through the clearest?
00:17:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You got to answer it.
00:17:39
Stor-Erock
Yes, hey I know. I know you're going to be like, oh, I don't want to hurt feelings or upset people, but that's not.
00:17:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, it's not about the subject.
00:17:44
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Well, the whole point is my voice doesn't come through.
00:17:46
Stor-Erock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:17:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's no, Justin.
00:17:47
Stor-Erock
It's not about the subject.
00:17:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not about the subject you covered. It's about how you presented the story, which one of those.
00:17:53
Stor-Erock
Mm hmm. It's about your work as a videographer, as a documentarian, as a storyteller.
00:17:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes.
00:18:00
Big Daddy J. Bonez
i coincidentally have them pulled up right now. And as I'm just scrolling through, trying to come up with an answer here desperately, um i do think that pine baron palette works may one because they're like i'm very very close to them and uh actually but i wasn't so much at the time um so i don't know i think maybe i just connected with them a lot and i was very
00:18:13
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:18:29
Big Daddy J. Bonez
passionate about like, I mean, I do this for every single one, but know, be passionate about telling the story the correct way. But I think that, um, especially as people who are new to me, connected on a, on a really awesome level during the shoot and,
00:18:45
Konrad Sauer
Was part of the connection, was there an element of you discovering something that you hadn't anticipated? Like, was there something that surprised you that kind of fed into your curiosity or something?
00:19:02
Konrad Sauer
I'm just, it's that's a wild stab in the dark, but...
00:19:02
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, actually, they, they, no, no, but you're, you're, you're right. And I do have an answer for that is they had a, what they referred to as the pallet house. It was a big like hangout area for Patrick and Carly and his families.
00:19:17
Big Daddy J. Bonez
They built it together. There's a ton of memories that burnt down. was really sad. And the community really got behind them. Classic. Right.
00:19:28
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:19:28
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And, you know, really took care of them and, frankly, they kind of had more than they needed as a result. And to pay the community back, they now host an annual Makers Fest that they started with the excess, you know, whatever.
00:19:46
Konrad Sauer
Right, right, right. Right.
00:19:48
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And um I didn't really realize that that's where Pine Barren Makers Fest originated from.
00:19:54
Konrad Sauer
right
00:19:55
Big Daddy J. Bonez
And to me, that was ah that was pretty neat.
00:19:57
Stor-Erock
I mean, I didn't know that till just now.
00:19:57
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think that, yeah, yeah.
00:19:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i've i
00:19:58
Konrad Sauer
That I, yeah, that's, that's cool.
00:19:59
Stor-Erock
That's fucking dope.
00:20:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, well, I watched that episode, Justin, being the one good boy among the...
00:20:00
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:20:01
Konrad Sauer
That's really cool.
00:20:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
with the other two bad boys.
00:20:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
that episode And I was And I was in awe of how they spun that tragedy into something that was...
00:20:14
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:20:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like about joy and bringing people together and making, I was in awe through your documentary.
00:20:29
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:20:30
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, it was just incredibly fun to edit.
00:20:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i remember that documentary.
00:20:33
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah. Yeah, that was a fun one.
00:20:34
Stor-Erock
So, so coming back to the, the technical side of storytelling, um, what were some of the tools you used in order to like in your craft, what were some of the tools you use to, to tell that story better? Like, why is it that is that story? Is it just the emotional impact that stands out to you?
00:20:56
Stor-Erock
Is it the like, Did you hit the beats the right way? Was the timing right? Was was it an emotional arc that you hit right? Like what is it in the craft of storytelling that you did so well in that episode that that's the one that jumps out to you?
00:21:15
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I mean, my boring answer is I feel like it's kind of typical storytelling format where, you maybe three quarters of the way in, we we get to the fire aspect, you know, we get to know who they are.
00:21:30
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Theoretically, you like who they are, you know, you connect and then you get to to what happened. And ideally, that would make you feel something.
00:21:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It did.
00:21:41
Stor-Erock
So you think you you got the timing just right?
00:21:44
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think got the timing just right. Um, yeah, I, uh, there were other elements I did. i lit a fire right here my one bedroom apartment. Um, because I didn't have a lot of footage of the fire, so I just created footage of a fire.
00:21:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha ha.
00:22:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Um, so there were certain things that I try to kind of amplify impact the fire. And the result of that without, know, I don't like overdoing it.
00:22:13
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Not just crazy, sad piano music. You know, it's not like that, but um yeah.
00:22:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sure.
00:22:18
Stor-Erock
um I will say for future reference, you know, there are resources online where you can get a video footage, you know, royalty free.
00:22:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:22:27
Konrad Sauer
but Fire footage.
00:22:29
Stor-Erock
So you don't have to burn your entire fucking apartment down, dog.
00:22:33
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I am adamant that unless it's the, unless it's my footage or found footage from their own content or whatever, it can't be in it.
00:22:37
Konrad Sauer
wendy
00:22:41
Big Daddy J. Bonez
So I do not,
00:22:41
Stor-Erock
That's fine. But I love you, buddy. Please don't put yourself in physical harm's way.
00:22:47
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I don't, it's fine.
00:22:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So,
00:22:48
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I've been, I've been fine.
00:22:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so Justin, why, like, this is a great answer so far. Why do you think storytelling is important? what's What's your answer?
00:23:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why is storytelling important to you?
00:23:05
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Well, my answer is similar to what you described at the front of the episode where I would say it connects us to humanity and I think it connects us to nature and in the concept of woodworking. I think it connects us to the piece, both whether it be nature or the story behind the piece or the tools used to make the piece or who made the piece.
00:23:23
Big Daddy J. Bonez
um I think it connects us to one another and that feels good.
00:23:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Justin, you're amazing at that. You have deep, deep friendships forged in the maker community. And I write it, Eric, wouldn't you say like, Justin is, is like, fuck.
00:23:36
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I am very lucky to have friends, all the friends that I have.
00:23:40
Stor-Erock
Oh, 100%. is He is a universally beloved figure.
00:23:44
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah. Justin, like your storytelling has bonded you to people. And like for myself.
00:23:49
Stor-Erock
Well, it' is his storytelling, yes, but the storytelling, I mean, honestly, the storytelling is a vehicle to get to know Justin, and then knowing Justin as a genuine human being is what makes you love Justin.
00:23:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes.
00:23:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yes. Yes. Because like Justin, without if you hadn't...
00:24:03
Stor-Erock
but Shut the fuck up.
00:24:04
Big Daddy J. Bonez
you
00:24:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Sorry, Justin, you're gonna have to listen. um If you hadn't done, like a lot of interactions we've had is because of the episode you did on me. And i was reflecting on that.
00:24:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, why did that, like, honestly, if I could say what what that episode meant to me, it was like the biggest gift any, like I could have been given.
Personal Connections in Storytelling
00:24:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was a gift. That's how I see it today.
00:24:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was thinking like, why I'm so emotional when I watch that episode, okay? And it's not, I don't mean it like, oh, I love watching myself.
00:24:39
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
o I don't mean it like that at all.
00:24:40
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
00:24:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not about me. But I actually, i was taking a walk today. and for about an hour, and I was thinking about the importance of storytelling and like, I've cried multiple times at watching your documentary, right?
00:24:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And i was like, why am I so emotional about this? And it actually brought up something from my past, which I sort of unpacked today on my walk.
00:25:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So when I was in graduate school, um I had the most difficult advisor in the whole university. She was one of the hardest core scientists in the whole place. And she was the chair of my department.
00:25:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's a famous immunologist, like plain and simple in the field. And everyone warned me, if you choose her lab, you're going to get it. Like you are going to be scorched. It's going to be scorched earth.
00:25:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was like, bring it, um bring it.
00:25:40
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Hahaha.
00:25:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. And so ah I chose her lab.
00:25:44
Konrad Sauer
Thank you.
00:25:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And as part of, and this relates back to your documentary, as part of our first year curriculum, we had to learn to be good presenters. And what that looked like to her was was she would take the four students we had, she'd take us into a room and she'd say, okay, Paul, you have to, you have to present this paper. I knew ahead of time I had ah to chance to read the scientific paper.
00:26:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Now I'm presenting to, to scientific, I'm presenting a paper that I just read, like, you know, during the week to literal scientific royalty, my advisor, like her advisor,
00:26:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
was friends with Watson and Crick who discovered the structure of DNA. Like they were contemporaries. Like to to to someone in science, yeah i she is one generation down from scientific like Nobel laureates. And you know so this is who she grew up with.
00:26:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I'm presenting to her my view of what I just read. So she would have us present this paper and she would record it on video.
00:26:52
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Amen.
00:26:52
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we were expected to like give a really good presentation on like what the experiment was, what it showed, what it didn't show, why it's important.
00:27:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we were told to give this presentation with like no filler words, no mm's and and's and but's and like you know like ah wrong turns. and you know You had to stay laser focused. And after you gave this presentation to like three of your colleagues and her,
00:27:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She'd stop the video and play it back in front of all of us.
00:27:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And we'd have to watch. oo That was tough. We'd have to watch ourselves on video. And she would stop the video every 15, 30 seconds and be like, do you see what you said there?
00:27:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
How many times did you say, um, How many times did you use a filler word? How many times did you use a non-scientific word to describe something? And it was totally fucking brutal.
00:27:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was so fucking brutal on my on who we thought we were. We thought we were good. you know we were PhD candidates. We thought we knew what was going on. And she just like... in essence tore us down but not to tear us down not like it's some form of sport but to build us back up as better presenters okay and i went through this for a whole year i was in her lab for seven years and even during my phd thesis when you think you're like in the clear seven years later right you're getting in your phd And you're in the clear, baby, right? Your whole family's there.
00:28:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I said something that she didn't like. I said a boatload of something or other. And she stopped me in my thesis in front of the whole crowd.
00:28:30
Stor-Erock
Oh, man.
00:28:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you could hear You could hear a fucking, Eric, you could hear a pin drop, okay? And she goes, Paul, like and it didn't matter. It didn't matter ah because it was between her and me.
00:28:39
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:28:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And she said, Paul, why don't you tell us how much a boatload exactly is
00:28:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And was like, oh shit. Like, what do I say?
00:28:52
Konrad Sauer
Ha ha ha ha
00:28:53
Stor-Erock
Roughly a handful. I don't know.
00:28:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
More than a handful, less than an ass full. I don't know.
00:28:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
great
00:28:59
Stor-Erock
That's a big ass, buddy.
00:29:01
Stor-Erock
i don't know.
00:29:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, so like I did my best to salvage the situation and finished. And so that was sort of my upbringing about speaking concisely, not using filler words, being clear.
00:29:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And, and so now we come back to your documentary, Justin, this was more than a documentary for me.
00:29:18
Konrad Sauer
Mm-hmm.
00:29:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I knew this was my opportunity to take everything I had learned all those years and 20 years of practicing as a scientist, giving presentations. And this was my chance to like take my woodworking life and cast what I think is important in the clearest, most concise, most direct. like I wanted to be a fucking laser beam in your documentary about the points that I felt passionate about.
00:29:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I feel like I hit it. Like actually your documentary is probably the clearest I've ever spoken in something recorded.
00:29:54
Konrad Sauer
Wow.
00:29:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so when I watch your documentary and I get emotional,
00:29:58
Stor-Erock
I'll have to watch it sometime, I guess.
00:30:03
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric, by the way, I watched George, you fucking bitch.
00:30:06
Stor-Erock
I've watched yours, asshole.
00:30:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so what,
00:30:07
Stor-Erock
I'm just being a dick.
00:30:12
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Paul's is a little long.
00:30:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God. So when I watched that documentary, it taps into a lot more than just what I'm saying about art or craft.
00:30:29
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:30:29
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's actually 20 years of baggage relating back to my PhD training about clarity, conciseness, not using filler words, not using, um, like being going direct to the point, like a laser.
00:30:35
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
00:30:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And so when I see this gift you gave me of a documentary, like it takes that whole life experience and wraps it up into this 45, as you said it was long, 45-minute documentary.
00:30:56
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You could have edited shorter, bitch.
00:31:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
no truthfully like i know this is off topic but yours was that length because i loved so much of what you were saying like i typically shoot yeah i record like interviews just like generally we'll say on average or maybe an hour um that i shoot that's an hour of you talking and they end up 20 to 30 minutes long i got a
00:31:08
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:31:09
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, it didn't it didn't feel long.
00:31:22
Big Daddy J. Bonez
play God here and cut out half of what you're saying. And that's really challenging for me to decide what you said is not important enough to represent your life. Now it's just, it's a very weird feeling.
00:31:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:31:34
Big Daddy J. Bonez
um But you had so much to say that I, I found so much value in that is impossible for me to take things out. Eric, on the other hand, that was easy.
00:31:43
Stor-Erock
Oh, I mean, that was a fucking 10-minute video, man. Absolutely.
00:31:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So anyway, to to sum it up, you know I think sometimes there are, and I only reflected on this today.
00:31:48
Stor-Erock
lot of nonsense.
00:31:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This became clear to me today on my walk, reflecting on the importance of storytelling, that your story was far more than a story about me and woodworking. It actually tapped into 20 years of who I was as a person, some some things I was struggling with in ancient history and And, you know, like slate moments of trauma and fun, you know, it it all was very circular.
00:32:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Anyway. Um,
00:32:21
Stor-Erock
Well, i wonder I wonder how many people identify with that. Like how many people will watch your your documentary and identify with things that you said um and and have that, I mean, not the same experience, but a similar experience. Because that is why we tell stories, right? That's why we have archetypes. That's why we have story structures for the emotional impact of it.
00:32:42
Stor-Erock
um And so, well, Conrad, I'm wondering... how like you're well known, at least amongst Paul and I for, for using stories as a, um, as, as a, I don't know if it's like a next to the work that you create. Like, I don't know if it's parallel to subsequent to, I don't know quite where the story falls in relation to the objects that you make or the art that you make, but how do you employ stories in your work and why do you think it's important?
00:33:18
Konrad Sauer
ah I was thinking, Jill and I were talking about this actually at supper and were just kind of sitting at the table looking around and realizing that there's I can't really look anywhere in our house and not see something that is there for a reason.
00:33:35
Konrad Sauer
And it, it it has a story to it. It's not haphazard. It's not, you know, bought at a big box store. It was either a gift from somebody or something I made or something that we inherited. So everything has a story behind it.
00:33:51
Konrad Sauer
And grew up, I grew up with that at a really young age. Like my, um, My mom's parents left Crimea around 1911, and they had two things with them when they came across the ocean boat, a fork and a plate.
00:34:09
Konrad Sauer
And so growing up as a kid, that fork, it's just a crappy fork, but it was way more than just a crappy fork because it was one of two possessions that they had other than the clothing that they were wearing.
00:34:17
Stor-Erock
Mmm.
00:34:23
Konrad Sauer
um And my grandma was similar. She...
Transition from Marketing to Meaningful Work
00:34:27
Konrad Sauer
she she spent a month living in an igloo when she was in her 50s because she so always wanted to do that. And she got to befriend a bunch of um people up in Pond Inlet, which is a northern community on James Bay, and befriended a bunch of artists and over the years acquired art from them. And so as a kid, being in their house, everything had a story, that everything had was there for a reason and had meaning.
00:34:55
Konrad Sauer
And so I just got steeped in that, like nothing, nothing was really accidental. And so you know For me, i mean I worked in design and marketing and advertising. and so you know so I worked with a writer. The creative director was a writer, a very, very good one. and He said, everything is about the story.
00:35:17
Konrad Sauer
Even if it's two words or even if it's just visual, your job is to tell a story because that's how yeah's how human beings connect with one another.
00:35:17
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Thank you.
00:35:26
Konrad Sauer
And so that was just, it was always there. So as a kid, you know, everything was always had a story to it. And then in my working early, that working career, it was all about telling a story, um inviting people to participate. And so when I got out of that world, when I wanted my soul back um and,
00:35:46
Stor-Erock
was that so Was that like corporate design and marketing?
00:35:49
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:35:50
Stor-Erock
Yeah. Interesting. Okay. I didn't know that.
00:35:53
Konrad Sauer
No, it was it was amazing. I got to do some really great stuff, but it some I remember there was one moment where was doing a press proofing in Montreal of an annual report that we had just finished doing, and I got to fly all over North America doing photo shoots and everything.
00:36:07
Konrad Sauer
It was amazing.
00:36:08
Konrad Sauer
And I'm looking at this annual report thinking, know, coming off the press and approving it, thinking, this doesn't matter.
00:36:08
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:36:16
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:36:16
Konrad Sauer
this this this doesn't This doesn't really matter. This is not making anybody's life any better in in that big picture sense of things.
00:36:24
Stor-Erock
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:36:25
Konrad Sauer
And so that was the implement the exit strategy right now. And I was making furniture on my own and really enjoying that and you know had a few commissions. And I loved the one-to-one relationship.
00:36:39
Konrad Sauer
I wanted to work for a single person. I did not want to be... um doing things en masse. And so...
00:36:48
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a a And Conrad, with your plane making business, you engage in many, many one to one relationships and pursue them to a very serious degree.
00:36:58
Konrad Sauer
oh totally. Yeah, I will... Yeah, i will I go out of my way to create a situation where there's a higher higher level higher chance of engagement with a customer.
00:37:13
Konrad Sauer
I mean, okay, well, okay, perfect example.
00:37:13
Stor-Erock
How do you mean?
00:37:17
Konrad Sauer
Paul's a customer from years and years and years ago, right?
00:37:20
Konrad Sauer
So, and and i'm on a I'm on your fucking podcast.
00:37:20
Stor-Erock
And now he can't get rid of him, so...
00:37:22
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Ha ha ha.
00:37:25
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:37:25
Big Daddy J. Bonez
a
00:37:27
Konrad Sauer
But that to me, that just that is an example of how and not every customer for plane making or furniture making or frankly, whatever the hell I'm making, you not everybody is interested in gauging on that deep of a level, but I will throw as many crumbs and as many opportunities and as many ideas or notions as I possibly can. yeah I'll go out of my way to do it.
00:37:52
Konrad Sauer
as an invitation for them to engage if they, if they want to, because frankly, that, that is way more interesting and way more fun for me as a maker.
00:38:03
Konrad Sauer
I mean, I can make planes in my sleep. I know how to do it. Like over, I've made almost 800 now, but the people that I get to work for fucking great.
00:38:09
Stor-Erock
Damn.
00:38:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Eric.
00:38:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
eric
00:38:14
Konrad Sauer
Like they are, they are really, really great.
00:38:14
Stor-Erock
Well, so that's, that's, that's what I was wondering, right?
00:38:15
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That's cool.
00:38:17
Stor-Erock
Is like, what is the, the, there's obviously a difference in approach in making a story for a large audience, like in marketing and design and whatnot, versus telling a story to or for an individual about an individual object.
00:38:35
Konrad Sauer
It's yes and yes, they are. but and
00:38:35
Stor-Erock
Like the, the, the building blocks are still the same, but, but the engagement is, is different, I assume.
00:38:41
Konrad Sauer
The engagement is different, except we have, I'm sure we have all been in situations where we have eavesdropped on a situation of somebody relaying something to somebody else.
00:38:53
Konrad Sauer
And we're hearing that part of that. We get little snippets of that going, shit, that sounds like a really interesting conversation. I really would love to be a part of that. That's because what we are hearing is ah usually a very personal one-to-one connection, but it's touching on something that we recognize we would like to be a part of or see value in or are intrigued by or interest in.
00:39:18
Konrad Sauer
and that's so And this is what I found so interesting about what Justin is doing. He's effectively, or it sounds like,
00:39:25
Stor-Erock
he's he's He's doing that at large scale.
00:39:27
Konrad Sauer
He's doing it at large scale, but the focus is still on the individual person that he's working with.
00:39:28
Stor-Erock
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 100%.
00:39:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh, that's so good.
00:39:32
Stor-Erock
yeah yeah yeah
00:39:33
Konrad Sauer
and and rec And recognizing that it still does have a big appeal because let's face it, like we tell our we read stories to our kids if we've got kids when they're little.
00:39:34
Stor-Erock
hundred percent
00:39:44
Konrad Sauer
That's how we engage with people is through the act of storytelling. And so as a maker, when we're making stuff, like we are whenever I can, want to invite the person to be as involved as they possibly can to the point where I've had furniture customers come over and hand plane their tabletop because they're interested.
Creating Memorable Storytelling Experiences
00:40:08
Konrad Sauer
Like, why the hell would I not do that?
00:40:10
Stor-Erock
God, that's, that's, you know why? Because the, the furniture maker in me is like, why the fuck would I let a ah a client come over and hand plane the top? But the marketing person in you that has that deep down experience is like, and I'm not, I'm, I'm not trying to lessen it.
00:40:22
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
No, it's not the marketing.
00:40:22
Konrad Sauer
Well, but but no, no, no, but no, no, I know, but I ah
00:40:26
Stor-Erock
I'm not trying to lessen it. What I'm saying is because I don't have that experience. I wouldn't, that's not a thought that occurs in my brain. and
00:40:32
Konrad Sauer
Oh yeah, no, it's, it's, it's not, it's yeah.
00:40:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's not the marketing.
00:40:36
Konrad Sauer
I've, I've got a few local customers that routinely will, you know, one in particular Noriko will just randomly call me and invite herself over just to see the wood collection because there's just, she had no idea there was that much variety of color and smell and and in wood.
00:40:51
Stor-Erock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:40:54
Konrad Sauer
So she'll just come over and make a bunch of shavings.
00:40:55
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think it's really awesome that you provide, you providing an experience is such a big deal.
00:40:57
Konrad Sauer
Hmm.
00:41:02
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I think that's so cool.
00:41:02
Konrad Sauer
Oh, it it is.
00:41:03
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:41:03
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It's like, whether it be a barber shop or a tattoo shop, you know, it's like, I want to walk out of that thinking that was fun.
00:41:04
Konrad Sauer
It is. a It's a huge deal. Right.
00:41:10
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:41:10
Big Daddy J. Bonez
know, I went in, I got my haircut.
00:41:10
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:41:12
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It looks good, but I want to like also walk away with an experience. You know, I, I talked to the person we connect with.
00:41:16
Konrad Sauer
Right. Right. and and And I got it. Yeah. and i And I had a chance to talk to the barber and, you know, got to know that he's got two kids or she's got two kids or whatever.
00:41:25
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Exactly.
00:41:25
Konrad Sauer
Some some aspect of their life.
00:41:25
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah. yeah
00:41:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I want to point out an important distinction, Eric. So you mentioned it being from a marketing angle, but I've known Conrad enough to know He's not doing it for marketing.
00:41:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's doing it.
00:41:40
Stor-Erock
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
00:41:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no no, no, no. Just let me finish. Like he's, I know him at this point.
00:41:43
Stor-Erock
go ahead.
00:41:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
He's doing it because those genuine human to human connections and Conrad, please correct me after I'm done speaking. Those mean a lot to you and they bring value to your life.
00:41:59
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And that's why you invite them.
00:41:59
Konrad Sauer
Oh, ah absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you know, our my friend Jamil Abraham from Benchcrafted who was here last week. And we we've known each other through woodworking for 20 years now.
00:42:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Thank you.
00:42:11
Konrad Sauer
But it was our mutual love of old, funny, air-cooled German cars that that increased that connection to the point where, you know, we've done we've gone vacations together. We've done road trips together.
00:42:24
Konrad Sauer
And that's all through that that's that. And that's all through those stories.
00:42:30
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Conrad, you're one of the people in that I admire.
00:42:30
Stor-Erock
Yeah, I.
00:42:33
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like you open yourself to the universe and to relationships that may or may not come with customers more than almost anyone I've ever met. Go ahead, Eric.
00:42:43
Stor-Erock
Well, I was I just want to clarify, I know that like I was largely making a joke and I don't I didn't mean it to be like derisive.
00:42:50
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay.
00:42:52
Konrad Sauer
Well, no, no, no.
00:42:52
Stor-Erock
Right. You know, I don't think that that was it's disingenuous.
00:42:52
Konrad Sauer
but
00:42:55
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:42:55
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I couldn't believe you said that, Eric.
00:42:55
Konrad Sauer
No, but... okay
00:42:59
Konrad Sauer
No, but there's also, there is also the the reality that I spent, you know, that was what, that's my only formal education and spent, you know, 10 years as an art director. So I do also understand that component of it and ah acknowledging it feels, it feels a little gross in a way.
00:43:12
Stor-Erock
Sure, sure. Because, well, there's...
00:43:17
Konrad Sauer
Like I, I, but because, but that's not the motivation for it, but I, yeah.
00:43:18
Stor-Erock
Well, sure. there' well there's... there's there's And that's it. That's an important distinction, right?
00:43:23
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:43:24
Stor-Erock
There's there's the human Conrad and then there is the the business that is Conrad Sauer.
00:43:28
Konrad Sauer
Right, right, right, right.
00:43:30
Stor-Erock
And those two things are are separate.
00:43:32
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:43:33
Stor-Erock
And even though i think, you know, and in in the little bit that we know each other, i i would never doubt that that is a very genuine human interaction that you're you're having there.
00:43:43
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:43:44
Stor-Erock
But. we also can't not acknowledge that it does do a thing for the business of Conrad Sauer,
Storytelling vs. Object Selling
00:43:51
Konrad Sauer
Absolutely. ye
00:43:51
Stor-Erock
which is invite people into the process and it makes the object more valuable.
00:43:55
Konrad Sauer
That's right. Yeah. And that was, you know, absolutely it does. And and so there's always that tension between how do you maintain a level of authenticity with what you're doing and, you know, to whatever, if you want to call it moral compass, whatever you want to call it, but how do you maintain that while still also, mean, for me being aware yeah, there, it is a, it is a marketing component for sure.
00:44:02
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:44:21
Stor-Erock
Well, so let me let me let me ask you a question. This is as soon as we started talking about storytelling as as a potential episode and then talked about Conrad having you on and like you're really good at at storytelling.
00:44:39
Stor-Erock
and objects happening simultaneously.
00:44:42
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:44:42
Stor-Erock
And I often think of the Lion Man sculpture, you know, this this Germanic sculpture made of a mammoth tusk that was found in like the early the first half of the 20th century.
00:44:58
Stor-Erock
It is a little lion humanoid sculpture, and it's dated to be around 40,000 years old. And one of the theories that comes up as to why it exists is as an aid for storytelling, right?
00:45:12
Stor-Erock
Somebody was carving this thing because what you do at the end of the day, every day, a person, as a hunter gatherer out in the world, you come back, the sun is fading and you have hours upon hours to sit around and tell stories.
00:45:13
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:45:27
Stor-Erock
And eventually what you do instinctually, and I think we do this as children as well, as you find visual aids to help you tell a better story.
00:45:34
Konrad Sauer
right
00:45:35
Stor-Erock
And so this Lion Man sculpture comes about and this to me is is kind of a a tell that we have a drive to make things. But ah my question that I'm getting at is, is the object a is is the object in aid to the storytelling or is the object and end in and of itself is the storytelling in aid to sell the object?
00:46:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Ooh.
00:46:05
Konrad Sauer
I, that's a good question. um I think, I think they're both. They can be both. I don't think they're, I don't think they can be one or the other, but they can also be both like they're,
00:46:21
Stor-Erock
I don't disagree with that, but it sounds, it sounds to me like from everything that you've said, from growing up with objects that are imbued with meaning. And then you, you sought this life where the things that you make have meaning and you keep doing this thing that the, the story is it's from your perspective.
00:46:40
Stor-Erock
And I'm, I'm projecting right now.
00:46:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mmm.
00:46:42
Stor-Erock
Sounds like the story is the important thing in the object is like the manifestation of the story.
00:46:45
Konrad Sauer
Oh, ah yeah. so So this gets to, is it the journey or the destination? Right?
00:46:53
Stor-Erock
Okay, sure.
00:46:54
Konrad Sauer
It's a lot of that. So there's a reason I drive a 40-year-old funny German car, because it's it is about the journey as much as it is about the destination. so um So for example, so I was just in Australia for three weeks in March, and i was working with i did a class with somebody that I'd never met in person, Glenn Rundle.
00:47:18
Konrad Sauer
Shout out to Glenn and Lisa. And taught a table making class. And so Glenn was, Glenn was graciously made arrangements to have some um really great Australian woods for me to use to make the table that I was going to make to bring home.
00:47:36
Konrad Sauer
And so glen Glenn was also going to make a table. So to me, it was a no brainer for me to take off cuts from my dining room table that I'm sitting at right now.
00:47:50
Konrad Sauer
take them in my suitcase, take them to Australia, and Glenn used those for the socks for his table. Because why the fuck wouldn't you do that? The whole point of doing anything is to try and figure out a way, how do I, um going to um I got immersed for three weeks with Glenn and his family. It was an amazing experience.
00:48:12
Konrad Sauer
So the least I can do is try and figure out what are some other ways that I can help make this relationship even more interesting.
00:48:24
Konrad Sauer
or
00:48:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my god.
00:48:25
Konrad Sauer
more or more personal. And so to me, that was like that was not even a hesitation of should I do this or not? It's no, this is the only fucking option I've got.
00:48:36
Konrad Sauer
I'm going to do this because it's the right thing to do.
00:48:37
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:48:38
Konrad Sauer
It's and it's a total no-brainer. So I'm not sure why I'm wired that way, but to me, that's that's part of the go out of my way to try and make a connection with somebody beyond just the thing that we're working on.
00:48:54
Konrad Sauer
Right. So so Glenn's working on his table and he found he got some amazing wood that I'm working with, some Australian hardwoods, and he's got these curly maple feet that he is putting onto his table.
00:49:07
Konrad Sauer
Like that to me is. That's that's why I do everything.
00:49:13
Stor-Erock
So the the the object is a vehicle to tell the story, but the story is a.
00:49:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh God.
00:49:20
Stor-Erock
I don't want to say a vehicle for the relationship, but like it it's it's you know, like it's parallel to the relationship.
00:49:23
Konrad Sauer
No, 100% it is. 100% it is. Yeah, but but the thing is, the thing is I'm i am always looking to try and come up with a situation where everybody feels like they won, right?
00:49:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh my God.
00:49:37
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
00:49:38
Konrad Sauer
Like that that is a perfect scenario to me. if you If you're doing something with somebody else and somebody feels like, ah, this a lot of work. I feel like I got the short end of the stick. That sucks.
00:49:50
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, totally.
00:49:50
Konrad Sauer
Always, always, always trying to figure out How do we create or how can I help create a set of situations or circumstances or whatever it is where everybody feels like, oh, my God, this was just this was amazing.
00:50:05
Konrad Sauer
And whether that's a whether that's a customer for a plane or piece of furniture, student, I don't know, anything like why not operate that way?
00:50:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I, I, wow.
00:50:20
Stor-Erock
Justin, have you ever felt that way about about a documentary? Like, have you ever have you ever put one out there and you were like, fuck, this hits on all levels? Everybody wins.
00:50:31
Stor-Erock
The viewer, the person I made it for, me, everybody wins.
00:50:36
Big Daddy J. Bonez
i actually genuinely do strive for that. I like to believe that I want someone to walk away thinking, okay, this dude just captured this moment in my life and depicted it honestly with authenticity. This represents me well.
00:50:55
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Um, remember early when I said I would start talking and forget my train of thought.
00:51:04
Konrad Sauer
Is that, are you three drinks in?
00:51:05
Stor-Erock
butdy Buddy, that's half our episodes, man.
00:51:05
Konrad Sauer
Are you three drinks in?
00:51:07
Big Daddy J. Bonez
yeah Golly. Yeah.
00:51:14
Big Daddy J. Bonez
yeah So, okay. So I, so I want them to think, okay, I just got this story that is now going to live on the internet, probably long past we exist. um I will give them the photos that I take. you know, I generally try to take some photos for thumbnails, for Instagram content, promos.
00:51:32
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I try to give them those like uses you'd like and, Yeah, I don't, because I can't afford to pay my subjects for their time. Like i people dedicate, whether it be a day or two days on a weekend to me for me to put this out on my channel, not theirs.
00:51:51
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I don't want them thinking that they're being taken advantage of or anything like that. um So it's really.
00:51:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I felt like I was taking advantage of
00:51:56
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
00:51:58
Stor-Erock
Yeah, right.
00:51:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
00:51:59
Stor-Erock
I don't think anybody's ever felt taken advantage of, dog.
00:52:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
00:52:03
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, but that that actually is a really important recognition because ah that's everybody winning, right?
00:52:07
Stor-Erock
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:52:10
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
00:52:10
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, well, Conrad, what you were saying, I didn't want to be like, that's totally like me because you you sounded like such a genuine and awesome person saying it.
00:52:10
Konrad Sauer
That's...
00:52:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
yeah
00:52:19
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I didn't want to be like, yeah, me too.
Symbolism and Emotional Resonance
00:52:21
Big Daddy J. Bonez
But I resonate a lot with what you're saying. I really do. i like like My whole life is just dedicated to not being a burden to anybody else. you know
00:52:31
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:52:32
Big Daddy J. Bonez
I want everybody to be happy.
00:52:33
Stor-Erock
but But you're also doing that in a vehicle that you find creative satisfaction in. You find meaning in the telling of the story itself.
00:52:46
Stor-Erock
right
00:52:46
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Absolutely, yeah.
00:52:48
Stor-Erock
so So then it is that win-win, because you have this urge to do a thing. You never wanted to get dusty as a kid, but you were drawn to film school, to documentaries, to to figuring out how to tell stories.
00:52:54
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
00:53:00
Stor-Erock
And now you've developed your skillset enough to the point where you can, as Paul kept saying over and over, give this gift to us to be able to be like, I can see myself from a different angle.
00:53:11
Stor-Erock
So from our perspective, it's really interesting and engaging and emotional. And then hopefully that's also giving value to the viewer of like, here's a thing that, that inspires you to go develop skill, go make a thing, go make your life better.
00:53:26
Stor-Erock
So like that's interesting.
00:53:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It sounds like a win-win to me.
00:53:28
Stor-Erock
That's the definition of everybody winning, right?
00:53:30
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
00:53:31
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, I mean, i'm I'm not sitting here saying, like, I don't feel like I win.
00:53:32
Konrad Sauer
That's right.
00:53:35
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Every time I put one these out, I, you know, I'm very happy and excited to share somebody else, to help share somebody else's story.
00:53:42
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, by the way, this conversation, like is we're at 53 minutes. I feel like five minutes. ah Conrad, what... what you said about ah just epic. I mean, your, your approach to people, your approach to the relationships completely inspiring.
00:54:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay. And I know you've affected me.
00:54:04
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, really.
00:54:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So Eric, I want to turn the spotlight onto you. So, and the question I have for you is
00:54:11
Stor-Erock
No.
00:54:12
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Ha ha.
00:54:13
Konrad Sauer
Whew!
00:54:14
Stor-Erock
I'm kind of a shrinking violet when you turn the spotlight on me.
00:54:16
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Ha ha.
00:54:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no
00:54:17
Stor-Erock
I don't know.
00:54:17
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
no, it's, You know, ah Conrad started the conversation about the importance of storytelling about the object, like with the fork. being That fork is symbolic of so much. It's not a fork. That fork is a symbol of so much more.
00:54:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that it how this relates to every listener who makes anything, I'm sure that anything you've made is symbolic of more than just an object, unless you're batching them out by the thousands, like a factory, like each object has moments in it, stories in it.
00:54:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Your, your life is in it. Your, your life, our, like life is short, right? Like bookended by in theory, like eternal darkness, right? Your life is so short and you're giving it to this object.
00:55:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, wow. Okay. So Eric, When you make a piece and you think about like the story of that piece or what's involved in that piece, like do you tell the customer about that story? How do you tell the story of that piece?
00:55:24
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that part of what sets its price?
00:55:26
Konrad Sauer
I'm worried
00:55:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Is that part of what makes it special?
00:55:31
Konrad Sauer
about... I'm worried about...
00:55:32
Stor-Erock
Oh, um
00:55:32
Konrad Sauer
I'm worried about...
00:55:35
Stor-Erock
yes, I tell the customer about that story. um I think it's important to tell the customer about that story because otherwise there's no justification for waiting, you know, a year, 18 months for me to make a piece.
00:55:49
Stor-Erock
If not, like... Hey, I would like you, you asked me to make X and like, it is in the back of my brain and it's percolating. And I think about it from time to time and I'm waiting for the thing to strike me where I go, Oh, there's the idea.
00:56:05
Stor-Erock
And why is that the idea? And why am I going to chase that down that rabbit hole? I think those, Not, not as justification for stalling, but I like that is the process.
00:56:17
Stor-Erock
And if you're not, if I'm not articulating that story to a client, then, you know, like just go buy a table from pottery barn. Like you're going to get it faster and for cheaper, you know?
00:56:28
Stor-Erock
Um, For me, I think it kind of breaks down into two categories. On the one hand, there's the objects that I've made in that that hopefully I will continue to make that have deep emotional value that they are.
00:56:47
Stor-Erock
Like making things is how I process my place in the world. And sometimes what that means is during either a turbulent time in life or, you know, at the extremes, the polar extremes, ah whether positive or negative, that means that some of those objects get imbued with with some of that energy and some of that processing.
00:57:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
some of Sarah's projects?
00:57:09
Stor-Erock
And then it becomes a deeply positive. some of Sarah's projects. Um, but, but that's also been happening, you know, before Sarah, like that's, that's me trying to figure out how to exist in a world where it's a guys, i don't know if you know this, it's fucking hard to be a human being, you know, like it's, it's, it's difficult, man.
00:57:29
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, dude. Oh my God.
00:57:31
Stor-Erock
ah So, so, so it's really, it's, it's,
00:57:31
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Don't get me started.
00:57:38
Stor-Erock
ah Selfishly, what's happening in those moments is it's me taking the time to meditate on whatever the thing is that I need to process in my life.
00:57:49
Stor-Erock
And the object becomes a a manifestation of sitting with that grief or that joy, that that discomfort or that extreme comfort.
00:58:00
Stor-Erock
Yeah. And so that's that that's one aspect of the storytelling. And I think it's impossible not to tell the story of the object in when it's those cases, because like otherwise, like what was the point of making it?
00:58:15
Stor-Erock
The point of making it was was the contending with the thing.
00:58:15
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:58:18
Konrad Sauer
Yep.
00:58:18
Stor-Erock
And either you identify with that or you don't. And if you don't, that's totally fine. Then it's just a fucking cabinet. It's just a piece of wood. It's whatever it is.
00:58:25
Konrad Sauer
So do you make decisions on who you work with based on what you think their ability to accept a storytelling component will or will not be?
00:58:26
Stor-Erock
And if you do, then it matters.
00:58:42
Stor-Erock
Oh, 100%. And
00:58:43
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
00:58:43
Konrad Sauer
Okay.
00:58:43
Stor-Erock
um
00:58:44
Stor-Erock
and and i will say those stories, those deeply personal stories, I never do on commission because I don't know that I can successfully thread the needle of like, this is a thing that I want to express, that I need to express, that's not going to be altered or tainted or somehow manipulated by knowing that somebody is paying me to do it have to like it.
00:59:12
Stor-Erock
So when it comes to the client work, and maybe that's me being like self-conscious about being like, you know, ah kid of the early 2000s and like listening to too much emo music.
00:59:13
Konrad Sauer
Huh.
00:59:23
Stor-Erock
I don't know.
00:59:25
Big Daddy J. Bonez
What's that?
00:59:28
Stor-Erock
But when it comes to commission work, there's still really interesting stories to be told, but they're they're less about me and they're more about the object.
00:59:37
Konrad Sauer
Right.
00:59:38
Stor-Erock
And it's more about like, what does the object do in the place that it's going to exist in? How is it affecting the home? how like How do you see your home existing and how does this piece fit into that thing?
00:59:47
Konrad Sauer
Right, right, right. Right. Mm-hmm. right
00:59:52
Stor-Erock
That's a story that feels for me personally, more comfortable to work through with a client. then like, hey, I'm processing the death of a family member or a divorce or I'm getting married I'm healing from X trauma. Like all of those things.
01:00:11
Stor-Erock
I don't know that I could take money from somebody and then have them watch me make it because that's like you're exposing yourself in such a deeply personal way.
01:00:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm-hmm.
01:00:23
Konrad Sauer
yeah Yeah.
01:00:24
Stor-Erock
that's ah That's a hard thing to do, right? So...
01:00:26
Konrad Sauer
No, absolutely. Yeah, it is. for sure it is. Yeah, for sure.
01:00:29
Stor-Erock
I mean, do you do you do that? Like, how how do you process that?
01:00:33
Konrad Sauer
um Yeah. as i mean, as I'm listening to you talking, I'm i'm kind of replaying stuff in my own mind, like projects I've worked on. So I like, I had a pretty significant shoulder injury in 2016 and like, it was, it was most likely going to be a career ender, but but thankfully it didn't play out that way.
01:00:51
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
01:00:53
Konrad Sauer
So I'm turning 50 was a big moment of gratitude. Um, it's a whole other topic anyway, but I remember the, I remember the first plane that I made,
01:00:59
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
01:01:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
01:01:04
Konrad Sauer
after that injury and it was going to, this is all fucking stories. This is all just stories. It was, it was commissioned. It was commissioned by a woman in Istanbul who turns out her and her dad restore cars.
01:01:21
Konrad Sauer
That's their thing.
01:01:22
Stor-Erock
Mm-hmm.
01:01:22
Konrad Sauer
And they have a museum that that's what they do. And her husband is from Montreal and it was for his birthday. And, They sent me a video. I was able to finish it.
01:01:34
Konrad Sauer
I shipped it to them. I got it done. And they sent me a video of him unwrapping it. And so there was this amazing connection. and they knew that that was the first plane I was able to make post-injury.
01:01:48
Konrad Sauer
And I was i was totally comfortable with that because
01:01:51
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
Client Relationships and Emotional Vulnerability
01:01:52
Konrad Sauer
it was it was a marker.
01:01:54
Konrad Sauer
in my, and don't know how old I was at that point. It was a marker in my life. And it was, for me, it was fairly symbolic of, I had this really horrible experience, but thankfully came out of it well enough that I could keep going.
01:02:09
Konrad Sauer
was And was an important milestone. So yeah, I guess, I don't know, maybe I'm just wired to be okay with that level of vulnerability. But it what it did is it created this really amazing relationship with this entire family.
01:02:25
Stor-Erock
Sure, sure, sure, sure.
01:02:26
Konrad Sauer
So, you know, i mean, I've gotten to know their kids now. Like it's, it's, it's a pretty amazing thing. Like I've never, I've never really kind of gone down any of those roads and had a situation where it's like, I got to back up.
01:02:43
Konrad Sauer
This is not, this is not feeling well or whatever. That's never happened. And I don't know if that's, don't know if that's the nature of what I'm doing.
01:02:48
Stor-Erock
It's...
01:02:50
Konrad Sauer
I don't know if it's, If I'm, I'm not exactly sure why that is, but more often than not.
01:02:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Conrad, I think it's you as a person.
01:02:58
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I think it's you as a person.
01:02:58
Stor-Erock
Well, yeah, I mean, as a formerly emotionally stunted human being, I can tell you I've never felt that level of comfort.
01:03:06
Konrad Sauer
yeah Yeah. I don't, I don't know what it is, but it's, it's been unbelievably rewarding.
01:03:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well,
01:03:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
speaking to your point about taking on Eric, taking on highly emotionally charged projects as part of a story.
01:03:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
a woman in Canada contacted me.
01:03:21
Stor-Erock
you've You've taken some on.
01:03:25
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:03:26
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She lost both her mother and father shortly thereafter each other. And she wanted a double urn for the two of them. And she was so nice and she was so kind.
01:03:35
Konrad Sauer
Well,
01:03:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I don't do urns. I've never made an urn before. And I just felt like, how can i not do this? She's so kind. She's so thoughtful.
01:03:54
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's grieving. Like, how can I not take this on? And I said, here's here's my idea. ah pitched her. It was a stadium a large stadia box where the the mom and dad are next to it.
01:04:06
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like a little bit of their ashes are like next to each other in two little chambers side by side so that she can see the two of them.
01:04:12
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
01:04:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I was hesitant to take this on because I'm like, what if what if the design, what if when she looks at it, she doesn't feel like, the warm and like the warm and fuzzies about her parent. Like, what if I fuck this up?
01:04:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, what if I don't do it justice? Like, then what then what do we do?
01:04:30
Konrad Sauer
big you you You can't, you you won't, Paul, you can't because you're listening you are listening to somebody tell their story about their experience and what happened and how they've come to you for this commission.
01:04:30
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
01:04:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, shit.
01:04:47
Konrad Sauer
And you've thought about it and made something. Whatever you make is going to be meaningful for them.
01:04:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
You know, Conrad, I wish I...
01:04:56
Stor-Erock
Oh, Conrad, you've been too good at what you do for too long, buddy.
01:04:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where
01:04:59
Big Daddy J. Bonez
a
01:04:59
Stor-Erock
You forgot.
01:05:00
Konrad Sauer
so Sorry.
01:05:00
Stor-Erock
You forgot what it is to fuck something up, buddy.
01:05:01
Konrad Sauer
Sorry. I shown you my CD cabinet?
01:05:02
Big Daddy J. Bonez
ah
01:05:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
were you?
01:05:04
Stor-Erock
All right. All right.
01:05:04
Konrad Sauer
send you a picture.
01:05:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where were you? was...
01:05:10
Konrad Sauer
if i
01:05:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
so
01:05:11
Konrad Sauer
have i have i shown you by have i shown you by cd cabinet i'll send you i'll send you a picture
01:05:12
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but i always
01:05:15
Stor-Erock
all right
01:05:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
but
01:05:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Where were you when I was fucking sweating bullets about saying yes to this, Conrad? um
01:05:25
Stor-Erock
Well, what was Paul, what was the emotional weight of of that journey? Like what, how how did you process making that piece and finishing that piece?
01:05:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Okay, so first of all, I was moved by her story. And she seemed genuine. She seemed well adjusted. She seemed to be grieving. appropriate like she she What I'm trying to say is like, everything seemed so healthy from her point of view.
01:05:57
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And her asking me, Like I wanted to make sure like this would be, this isn't like a landmine I'm stepping on is essentially what I'm getting at. And everything seemed right.
01:06:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I advanced an idea about the design and she loved it. And she was emotional just thinking about the design. I sent her a few sketches and as I made it,
01:06:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It was fine. Like I, I did like, ah I was cognizant that this was a very important object to some, like to another human, but ah it wasn't my story. So I didn't feel the gravity. Like, like obviously I've been honestly, here, I'll tell you something.
01:06:38
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I've been putting off making an urn for my dad. My step-mom wants me to, um, I've been putting it off and I've been stalling.
01:06:42
Stor-Erock
Hmm.
01:06:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Why? Because don't want to face hard feelings. um if Sorry. sorry i don't My relationship with my dad was amazing. It was excellent.
01:07:05
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And he lived a long life, 88 years. And I loved him do dearly. It was perfect. It was just so good. So good. And I don't want to think about the fact that he's gone.
01:07:16
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So that's why don't I've been stalling. it's not It's not like this trauma or like any you know dark story. it was an amazing story. He was such a great dad to me.
01:07:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I've been putting it off.
01:07:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's because I don't want to have to make the object and think about how my dad's gone the whole time. So with making the object for her, and I have to like I will because I know it means a lot to my stepmom, who know I've known my entire life practically.
01:07:38
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:07:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
um So I'll do it. but I realized I've been procrastinating, ah but for this, for the customer's object, I didn't have that, that, that, you know, it wasn't pulling at my own heartstrings like that.
01:08:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So I could say, okay, I'll make this object. You know, i make the object and I send it to her. And that's when, that's when the rubber meets the road. Like that's when you're like,
01:08:11
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I hope this lands the way i meant it to land. Like, I hope this hits the way I i intended. And she, she like texted me and she's in tears. Like they she, she, she called me and she's in tears.
01:08:27
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
She's in tears. She's like, this means the world to me. ah you know, It's the permanent resting place in my house for my, you know, ashes of my parents. Like, oh, like, I don't know if I can, I don't know if could take projects like this.
01:08:41
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah,
01:08:42
Stor-Erock
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:08:43
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, it's too much. It's too much.
01:08:45
Big Daddy J. Bonez
yeah no kidding. Oh my gosh.
01:08:46
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Like, I don't, I,
01:08:47
Stor-Erock
But but so they so both both of these projects have a huge amount of emotional weight, obviously, like they're they're massive, but they they hit completely different parts of your humanity.
01:08:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah yes, they do.
01:09:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
They do.
01:09:01
Stor-Erock
Because on the one hand, for for the client, you are you like the aim is to make a thing that they feel comfortable putting their parents in and and sitting with. in in you're You're appeasing their grief.
01:09:20
Stor-Erock
And that is, that's a moment of a thing, right?
01:09:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Mm.
01:09:23
Stor-Erock
Like you make the thing, they know you're making the thing and it all comes to a head when you show them the thing. Whereas when you're making an object for your father, that the entire process of making that thing is holding the grief.
01:09:41
Stor-Erock
Like that is, and it's, it's, says it's a, it's a profoundly elongated process and it's fucking hard, man.
01:09:46
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yeah.
01:09:48
Stor-Erock
You know, and they're two different aspects of your humanity, but they're both.
01:09:53
Konrad Sauer
Yeah.
01:09:54
Konrad Sauer
They are, but, but they are also both a huge privilege in a way as well.
01:09:54
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, good point.
01:10:00
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:10:00
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It is. It is, Conrad.
01:10:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Another good point.
Legacy and Continuity of Storytelling
01:10:02
Konrad Sauer
Right. It, it, that, that if, if somebody like it's,
01:10:08
Konrad Sauer
in Maybe in those cases, it is actually less about the actual object and more about the acceptance of the story that you are continuing.
01:10:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Yeah.
01:10:20
Stor-Erock
1,000%. it is...
01:10:21
Konrad Sauer
you' You're helping to write one of the last chapters of that person's life.
01:10:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Oh.
01:10:27
Konrad Sauer
And that is a huge privilege.
01:10:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ah
01:10:30
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Conrad, you're gonna make me cry, dude.
01:10:32
Konrad Sauer
Sorry. Sorry.
01:10:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Well, it's like storytelling.
01:10:36
Stor-Erock
ah yeah no it's it is
01:10:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Storytelling can be trivial. It can be like, oh, bubblegum. Like, oh, it's a story. It's a story about this. Like, I just happened to be getting a coffee on a Tuesday. And then then you extrapolate a step ah further out.
01:10:49
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And it's like, oh, it's a story about society or about us as a culture.
01:10:51
Stor-Erock
Uh-huh.
01:10:53
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And then you extrapolate it out. And it's like, oh, it's a story about humanity, about the the way people are in general. And then you extrapolate out. And it's like, it's a story about someone's entire life. Like,
01:11:04
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
like you're you're kind of putting the like as you said Conrad you're putting the period on the end of someone's life and like you know this is the final iteration
01:11:11
Konrad Sauer
Right, right. But you're you're it's interesting. you're you're talking You're talking about everything going out, but in actual fact, what you are doing is everything in, getting smaller and smaller.
01:11:18
Stor-Erock
the
01:11:23
Stor-Erock
Mm hmm.
01:11:24
Konrad Sauer
You're doing one-to-one. But the reality is it is applicable for the however many billions of people are on the planet.
01:11:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
01:11:31
Konrad Sauer
Everybody experiences death.
01:11:32
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
wow
01:11:34
Stor-Erock
Well, that's that's the that's the old adage of like the more personal it is, the more universal it is.
01:11:35
Konrad Sauer
Like, it's... Exactly.
01:11:39
Stor-Erock
Right now, everybody loses a parent.
01:11:40
Konrad Sauer
Exactly. Like it's every, every time that we make something, we have an opportunity to write the first page or the first paragraph of a brand new story.
01:11:52
Konrad Sauer
That is what we get to do. And if we take it seriously and find and connect with the right person, that's a real privilege to be able to do that.
01:12:02
Konrad Sauer
And then they take that thing and it has its own life in their home or in their whatever. And they tell their kids about it or their whoever about it. And it, I mean, we we get to start that.
01:12:16
Konrad Sauer
and then And in this case, that's right.
01:12:16
Stor-Erock
And then, then it becomes the fork.
01:12:19
Konrad Sauer
Then it becomes the fork. Or in this case, then it becomes the end. The end of the life of those two people in that box where they are together. But then that story continues.
01:12:28
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Conrad,
01:12:31
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
if I can, that story continues. ah Can I pick up on that? So if I want to turn this, the volume up, even the e emotional volume of even more on you, would say,
01:12:42
Stor-Erock
Woo! Let's go, baby.
01:12:43
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Oh no, here we go.
01:12:47
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you You've lived with this authenticity in your house, in your family, in your life about the storytelling, the the importance of the story behind objects, living in life like that is deliberate with intention.
01:13:02
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
And I suppose exposing your children to that, as our children are a lightning rod for emotion and for what we care about,
01:13:15
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Have you imbued those properties or those attributes into your children by modeling them? Is this something that you have indoctrinated your family, your your children into about the importance of storytelling and how an object's not an object?
01:13:35
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
An object can be much more than an object.
01:13:40
Konrad Sauer
Oh yeah, they're fucked. Like the they, they, they, they do not have a choice.
01:13:43
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Ha ha ha ha
01:13:50
Konrad Sauer
Like it's been from the minute that they popped out, it has been nonstop indoctrination of the value of everything and why like the kitchen chairs that they sit on were made by our friend Bruce. And this is the story of the, this, and it's, I mean, why not?
01:14:10
Konrad Sauer
Like, why not give them some context to why everything that surrounds them is where it is and why it's there?
01:14:19
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
i feel...
01:14:19
Stor-Erock
Do you think as they've grown up, do you think that's a thing that um they rolled their eyes at as younger people? And now as they're growing older, they're slowly starting to not want to admit that it matters?
01:14:26
Konrad Sauer
Oh, 100%.
01:14:34
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, absolutely. So our Riley's our oldest, he's 25 and he's been he and his girlfriend live together. They have for two years now. And it is so funny kind of watching him you know when they come over for dinner or whatever, or we work on his car or my car or whatever.
01:14:53
Konrad Sauer
And he notices all the things, little tiny things that have moved or changed or whatever. He wants to know why, like, where did that go? What happened to that? Because does.
01:15:04
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That's awesome. That's cool that it has value to him.
01:15:06
Stor-Erock
So, yeah, he knows that it's a choice.
01:15:08
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah.
01:15:08
Konrad Sauer
and it's not And it's not a monetary value. I mean, in some cases it might be, but there's a value because he was there.
01:15:11
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:15:12
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
01:15:18
Konrad Sauer
spent 22 years living with these things and using these things and this space. And you know why this why does this why is this wall where this wall is?
01:15:29
Konrad Sauer
I explained why. Because...
01:15:31
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:15:34
Big Daddy J. Bonez
It's funny, I don't have kids.
01:15:34
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Conrad, I feel like...
01:15:35
Big Daddy J. Bonez
i' I'd like kids one day, but... Sorry, Paul, I'm going to keep talking. ah
01:15:40
Konrad Sauer
Yeah,
01:15:40
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ahead.
01:15:41
Big Daddy J. Bonez
But I have... you know um I think about exactly what you're talking about, Conrad, where it's like I have my Greg chair, I my Larissa Huff box, I have my Keith Johnson piece, and it's like...
01:15:54
Big Daddy J. Bonez
you motherfuckers better keep this shit. You better keep this.
01:15:57
Konrad Sauer
yeah, totally.
01:15:59
Big Daddy J. Bonez
You take care of this.
01:15:59
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yeah, totally.
01:16:00
Big Daddy J. Bonez
So you bet your ass. I'll be telling these stories nonstop.
01:16:02
Konrad Sauer
yeah
01:16:05
Big Daddy J. Bonez
So that, yeah, no, I hear you.
01:16:06
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yeah.
01:16:08
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
what
01:16:09
Konrad Sauer
If it's important to you and you explain why it's important beyond price tag,
01:16:16
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Totally.
01:16:17
Konrad Sauer
They get that. whether You're totally right, Eric. When they're younger, they don't give a crap. And that's fine.
Intentional Living and Connection
01:16:23
Konrad Sauer
That's the whole point of being that age. But it does filter through. don't know. I mean, their frontal lobes are gone 10, 12 years.
01:16:30
Konrad Sauer
they do return at some point. But, yeah. they do return at some point um
01:16:34
Stor-Erock
Yeah.
01:16:36
Konrad Sauer
yeah
01:16:37
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's honestly perpetuating the importance of storytelling from our generation to the next generation, right? and And modeling it, modeling why this is important to me, why it in in theory you know should be important to you. I think living with intention, Conrad, as you described, it's the same.
01:16:55
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I look around my kitchen, I see knives completely forged from scratch from friends of mine I remember one of the knives has a wagon wheel that he discovered in a field from the eighteen hundreds and a cast iron wagon wheel that he forged down and wrapped around the outside of the knife.
01:17:02
Konrad Sauer
Right.
01:17:13
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
I see intarsia illustrations from... Dan, who just visited me and wanted to give me this gift. I see cutting boards from friends or that I've made myself.
01:17:25
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
It's just like, it's all around you, the community of people who mean something to you. Every time I go into my shop, Conrad, and I grab my favorite plane that you made, it connects me to you. I feel like all of us crave that human connection and it all comes with a story attached.
Episode Reflection and Conclusion
01:17:47
Konrad Sauer
Oh, when I was in Australia and I'm walking into Glenn and Lisa's kitchen and there's your sushi set there. It's like, what the hell?
01:17:55
Stor-Erock
this
01:17:56
Big Daddy J. Bonez
a
01:17:57
Konrad Sauer
Like I knew I recognized it immediately.
01:17:59
Stor-Erock
Yeah, no, immediately.
01:17:59
Konrad Sauer
And so, right. So that's, that was an amazing story that came out of all that.
01:18:05
Big Daddy J. Bonez
That's so cool.
01:18:05
Konrad Sauer
Right. So yeah, it's, yeah.
01:18:09
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
you guys, I feel like I could talk about this literally forever. Uh, this has been an amazing episode.
01:18:15
Stor-Erock
don't remember that time we said we were going to have a second segment.
01:18:20
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
So, uh, there is, we will be talking. There's no second segment. We're already at an hour 18. um We'll be talking about um authenticity and how that interacts with social media in the after show. That was going to be our second segment. Sorry, everyone.
01:18:41
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
But Conrad, Justin, Eric, um I couldn't have asked for a better conversation. i was so moved by all of your stories and all of your answers.
01:18:51
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
This is phenomenal episode. So thank all of you.
01:18:55
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Thank you, man.
01:18:56
Konrad Sauer
Yeah, thank you.
01:18:56
Big Daddy J. Bonez
Thank you for having me on.
01:18:56
Konrad Sauer
This is, yeah, this was great.
01:18:57
Big Daddy J. Bonez
um It's been an honor
01:18:59
Stor-Erock
You're very welcome.
01:18:59
Konrad Sauer
Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:01
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
ha
01:19:01
Big Daddy J. Bonez
honor.
01:19:07
Big Daddy J. Bonez
You guys kind of did owe me, but yeah, you know.
01:19:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right.
01:19:14
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
With that.
01:19:14
Stor-Erock
right.
01:19:14
Stor-Erock
Let's let Conrad rip on social media in the after show. Thanks, friends.
01:19:18
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
All right. We'll see in the after show, y'all.
01:19:20
Konrad Sauer
ah All right.
01:19:21
Woodworking is Bullsh*t
Bye.
01:19:21
Stor-Erock
All right. Okay. Bye.
01:19:22
Konrad Sauer
See you. Bye.