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176- Should vegans ever play the victim card/
109 Plays21 days ago
In this episode Mark, Chantelle & Ant discuss whether it can ever be acceptable for vegans to draw attention to their own suffering...after all, veganism is about the animals- so why make it about ourselves?
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Mark, Chantelle & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction and Episode Context
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone, those poor, poor vegans. Don't you just feel sorry for them? I'm Anthony and for this episode I'm also joined by Mark and Chantel.
00:00:12
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! protein. Take your flat grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry. They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:31
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the
00:00:39
Speaker
social injustice has connection with another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:55
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Hello everyone, my name's Chantel and welcome everyone who is listening to this episode of Vegan Talk. Thank you for being here.
00:01:06
Speaker
Hi everyone, my name is Mark. This is Vegan Talk as opposed to the vegan news. and So we're going to be talking about a specific topic today. And previous episodes of Vegan Talk are available in people's podcast feed. Indeed, and the theory is that these Vegan Talk episodes never go out of date. So even if you're just coming to us for the first time, There's probably almost 100 or so vegan talk episodes now you can find in your podcast provider. So ah scroll back and find them. But don't do it just yet because you're here to hear today's episode. So listen to this one first.
Exploring Vegan Victimization
00:01:38
Speaker
Today we are talking about vegans and victimization. Now that sounds like an interesting conversation. combo doesn't it the theory is or our theory is for this discussion that veganism is a social justice movement so it's about animals obviously some people would come to it for environmental reasons too as well as those who are doing it for health reasons but perhaps we wouldn't call that social justice but from a social justice framework when is it okay for us as vegans to play the victim card or to draw attention to our own suffering our own difficulties and
00:02:13
Speaker
as vegans. So just to kick things off here, I'm going to give a ah few scenarios and then ah I'll come to Mark first and then to Chantel and ask what their feelings are in terms of, well, actually, would it be okay to draw attention to our own suffering or do we actually need to hold that in? Because actually, if we came to this for social justice reasons, perhaps we shouldn't be making it about us. So the four examples I could think of, and I deliberately made them quite diverse,
00:02:41
Speaker
ah The first one would be turning up to a restaurant. Let's say it's for a family member's 80th birthday party or so something like that. And you get there and there are no vegan options. You're going to feel, to use a non-vegan phrase, you're going to feel pretty cheesed off. there's There's nothing for you to eat. There's no vegan options on the menu.
00:02:59
Speaker
Another situation where we might be feeling a bit narc'd.
Social Isolation and Stigma in Veganism
00:03:03
Speaker
as a vegan might feel quite victim-y would be so let's say our place of work there's constant anti-vegan jokes or put downs or you're you're often the butt of jokes in a vegan specific way a very different scenario might be let's say you're doing some kind of direct action both Mark and Chantel have been involved in hunt sabbing at different times and You might as a hunt sab be physically attacked or intimidated by a hunter or or somebody associated with the hunt. And like again, there, obviously, you're very much going to feel a victim in that sort of situation.
00:03:40
Speaker
And then the other one I thought of might be somebody who is decided to be vegan. wants wants to do it for reasons to do with animal rights. But let's say they don't actually know anyone else who is vegan and they've been doing it for a year or so.
00:03:53
Speaker
They've been living as a vegan, but they don't know anyone. that They're feeling quite lonely, feeling quite isolated and feeling deprived through that lack of sort of social contact with anyone else who's seeing the world.
00:04:04
Speaker
in that way. So Mark, there are four very different scenarios of how we might feel down, angry, victimised, not good about being vegan.
00:04:18
Speaker
Do you think there is a difference in those examples as to whether we might draw attention to that and we might rant about it, we might post online, we might whinge to a friend about it or is it more important to kind of keep it in and be like well no actually veganism is not about me.
00:04:34
Speaker
It's about the animals. what How do you view these things? So these these ah these examples here that do you would give, um they're they're actually they're very significant. For instance, turning up to a restaurant and and there and there and there isn't any vegan options there. i remember once, many years back, myself and ah friend of mine who was also vegan turned up to ah friend of ours' parents' funerals sort of after thing. There was like a meal after the burial for people who would come from around the country to have something to eat. So the two of us were at that, and it it was chicken and chips.
00:05:10
Speaker
So obviously we ah weren't going to have the, it was chicken, chips and peas in fact. And obviously me and my friends didn't have the chicken. I had the chips and peas, but my friend did didn't didn't trust that the chips weren't cooked in animal fat. So she only had a plate of peas. but you were scooping up here the fork I was having.
00:05:30
Speaker
And yeah, ease you stand out, you you know that you stand out, you know that people are sort of mentioning this and maybe sniggering behind your backs. It's actually stuff like that, the the standing out socially, especially in social occasions and public social occasions it as a vegan person,
00:05:46
Speaker
is a huge turnoff to people who are considering veganism the fact of standing out that the tall poppy syndrome as is called here. Being the the awkward person at the table in the restaurant asking if if this product is vegan or do you have it? Stuff like that is an enormous and enormously intimidating prospect for a lot of people who are considering veganism.
00:06:06
Speaker
And one study I've read showed that most people who quit veganism or who don't take it up in the first place do so because of social stigma fears, not concerns about their health or a taste or affordability or that. bad It's the social perceived social stigma.
00:06:25
Speaker
So whilst all these examples are different, and as a Hunsab, getting physically attacked is very different from standing out at a restaurant, but they they all come from the same place and they all lead to the same place, and that's sort of a social isolation.
00:06:37
Speaker
and it can be quite quite a scary place to be.
The Role of Activism in Veganism
00:06:40
Speaker
One of the reasons why the animal rights movement is so strong is because people who've been in it for a while are so used to this and have developed such a hard skin and are quite tough and individuals able to who aren't afraid to stand out.
00:06:52
Speaker
And that's provided an enormous impetus and energy to the movement. So can I ask then, i know and I know you're ready to come in as well, Chantel here, but can I ask then, Mark, would that be an argument for saying that actually it's right to draw attention to, okay, it's low level suffering in in a social situation, not having a vegan option.
00:07:14
Speaker
but actually to draw attention to that and say, this isn't okay, I'm not being catered for here, I need to, you know, vegans have rights too. If you are to do that, then that makes that situation less likely in the future and therefore it's easier for people to be vegan because they're not having that social stigma. Would would you say that's an argument for saying, no, we do need to draw attention to when we're suffering as vegans because the less suffering we have as vegans,
00:07:41
Speaker
the easier it is to be vegan and so the fewer animals get abused. Yeah, exactly. I'm against all all animal suffering, including me ah suffering. so But most people, when when they're when they're going out to a social setting, aren't up for a combative experience. that They want to just go in and sit down and and be served some realised food and all to be relatively anonymous and they don't want to stand out. So yes, I do agree that it incidents like this should be used as a teaching point. But the reality is is that if you're going out to ah social location, you probably don't want that added on to your evening. you know
00:08:19
Speaker
But yeah, it's it's ah a good example to draw attention to. the And it isn't ah playing the victim. it there's There's a difference between playing the victim and genuinely being a victim.
00:08:29
Speaker
And I think in most cases, vegans but when they'end by this they are genuineing the victim they are the blood of joke they are excluded and restaurants and they are over-policed by the police, absolutely.
00:08:42
Speaker
So ah we we we have been habitually and historically treated as a crank niche demograph that is slowly changing or maybe quite quickly changing, but it's still here and it does toughen you up. So it's not all bad.
00:08:56
Speaker
Yeah, sure. Right, Chantal, let's bring you in now then. You're an ardent animal rights activist. You know, you're you're not afraid of anything. You're not going to draw attention to your own suffering, are you? Because, you know, that'd be hypocritical because think of think of the animals and what they're going through.
00:09:12
Speaker
You're not going to play the victim card ever, are you? um Well, I am actually at work at the moment because ah the equality and diversity emails, they keep sending it out that have severe disregard for veganism and even being told that,
00:09:26
Speaker
Technically, um veganism isn't protected. And I had to correct the head of communications at this big charity I work for saying actually it very much is. So let's get the ball rolling with a whole training program for the entire thousands and thousands of members of staff that this charity employs to re-educate all of you.
00:09:46
Speaker
on actually veganism as a protected characteristic that every equality and diversity email I've received has not been mentioned in. So and that's a whole other thing, because what I was going to say is just agreeing with you two, especially what Mark was saying.
00:10:02
Speaker
And no, I think it was actually you, both of you, both of you have said this, is that every time... we pipe up about veganism it's a vote for the animals everything that we do complaints at a restaurant or asking for a vegan option or saying actually no I'm not going to put up with just peas is a vote for the animals at the end of it because at the end of it the animals will have a voice through our food habits does that make sense and it's what you were saying just reiterating basically what you ended up saying is that yeah sometimes we do feel like well I should have had a better vegan option but ultimately if you really dig into it we still don't see ourselves as the victims we're doing it for the animals and every time for me it's more the fact that you've forgotten about me
00:10:52
Speaker
It's more their audacity at how ignorant they're being that's pissed me off rather than being offended by what they've said. And what the majority of people don't realise and what I've noticed about being in Farming UK and everything Facebook groups, buying on all of them and piping up as a vegan is what I've noticed is a severe lack of understanding as to what veganism actually is.
00:11:17
Speaker
So people will argue and argue and argue with you about you just existing as a vegan and not understand what veganism is, because no one seems to understand it's an animal rights movement.
00:11:27
Speaker
So when they're insulting you, they think they're insulting you. But the majority of vegans, like Mark was saying, are pretty thick skinned at this point. And actually you're not offending us at all. My heart is breaking for the animals. Every time you mock me for being vegan, I'm not going, oh my God, I'm so offended as a vegan. I'm going, oh my God, they're not going vegan. That's an animal, another animal I haven't saved. So ultimately it's the the death of the animal again that I'm pissed off about, that they're ignorant I'm pissed off about because every time someone's ignorant about it, every time there's not a vegan option,
00:12:01
Speaker
It's not an animal being saved. and that set about And that's what people fail to recognise about veganism is that you can mock me for being vegan as much as you want. And as much as I think you're a disgusting piece of shit for doing it, my heart is really sad for the animals at the end of it.
00:12:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. No, that that that does make sense. And I think that's ah that's a sound argument. um What I'm wondering is... whether and i might i might be making up this as a hypothetical or whether i wonder whether it does actually happen i think to go vegan 15 years ago it's about 15 years ago that i started being vegan i think you really did need thick skin and you did really need to want to do it to do it and mercifully it has been a lot easier to to be vegan you know i
00:12:53
Speaker
I don't always buy um token vegan products from massive multinational companies. But last night I enjoyed a vegan Magnum that I've just picked up in the supermarkets. ah Isn't this bloody brilliant? You can go into a supermarket and there's a vegan Magnum.
00:13:07
Speaker
Isn't this wonderful?
Critiquing Modern Vegan Activism
00:13:08
Speaker
So it has it has become easier. And I wonder whether there is a breed of vegan that can exist nowadays. And of of course, it's brilliant that it can be easier for folk.
00:13:20
Speaker
But I wonder whether there could be a breed of vegan where it's all about them and it's all about how easy it is for them to become vegan. I wonder whether you could actually become almost a little divorced from what is happening to animals and you could get into a situation where you're you're saying...
00:13:41
Speaker
oh, this isn't very good, is it? There's only three vegan options here at this restaurant. and oh Oh, dear. Woe is woe is me. And actually, I cringe at that a little bit. I don't know whether I've actually experienced it. So I might just be creating something that doesn't actually exist.
00:13:57
Speaker
But I would kind of cringe at that and kind of be like, do you know what? Like, yeah, of course we want more vegan options. We want the whole menu to be vegan. We don't want animal exploitation to be going on at all. But remember, Sunshine, there's some animals suffering somewhere way more than you are right now with your three options to choose from. We didn't have that back in my day. Have I created this situation or do we think it actually exists?
00:14:22
Speaker
I have a few things to say about this. In agreement, I'm going to preface it by saying I agree with you. And I'm probably going to make myself quite unpopular because people aren't going to like what I'm going to say. It's not stopped you before. No, it doesn't.
00:14:38
Speaker
And what I've done quite recently... in in possibly the last year is I've actually disassociated myself with quite few vegans because I think they're purely about the ego and I've noticed that veganism has all become about buzzwords like outreach and outreach and almost mini photo shoots and I feel like a lot of vegans it seems particularly male vegans I'm sorry to say Female vegans are responsible for it too.
00:15:08
Speaker
But I've noticed that a lot of male vegans have seemed to realise that they can maybe pull women and stuff by being vegan. And they end up doing outreach and things like that. Really sort of not direct action, sort of stuff that you can just turn up to and have your photo taken and make yourself look like you're doing lot more than you are because you're appearing in photographs and stuff. And I've noticed a rise.
00:15:35
Speaker
in vegans like this recently which sort of reinforces what you're saying about vegans making it about themselves and i've noticed a rise in activists recently that are making it about themselves and i do think a lot of vegans are forgetting that actually is about the animals and that it's not a big photo shoot and we're doing activism for the animals and i feel like a lot of activists recently in the last few years have forgotten this and whilst activism is great and I'm sure they are impacting people in a way I haven't failed to notice that there's a lot of egos within the movement and I think it's creating a lot of infighting which ultimately is impacting the animals because it's putting people off veganism and I'm calling them out on it
00:16:27
Speaker
Because I'm sick of seeing it, to be honest, because it just wasn't like that. Back nine, 10 years ago when I went vegan, we just used to bowl up to things. We didn't go photos to be taken.
00:16:38
Speaker
There was no like words we should be using, ways to do it. We just turned up. And we protested with our little piquet signs outside farms and molesting cows up the road. Do you know what I mean?
00:16:50
Speaker
It wasn't a whole song and dance about it. It wasn't like, look at me, look at me. It was easier in some ways. Activism was easier. You just used to show up. You might see someone you know.
00:17:00
Speaker
You weren't there to have loads of photographs taken and it just felt different. And then, I don't know, if things started changing after COVID. Things seemed to shift. So that's what I think has happened recently. So there are a lot of Megans that have made it all about them and me.
00:17:17
Speaker
you know what I mean? And I'm getting sick of it. I remember back in the late 80s when I was going vegan first and me and my small group of friends were going vegan and it was so off the radar.
00:17:28
Speaker
in South Ireland at the time. It was so unheard of and alien and abstract and not in anyone's consciousness that there was no piss taking. There was no response.
00:17:39
Speaker
ah if you went If you told someone that you were vegan because they were about to serve you something, they didn't know what you were on about. and They assumed that you could still eat cheese or chicken or out the fish or something.
00:17:49
Speaker
So it it was it was a time before it was in the cultural zeitgeist as a thing to take the piss out of or as a thing to represent the extremity of human behavior. It was before that time.
00:18:02
Speaker
So there wasn't any real piss taking. There was just sort of a look of confusion on people's faces because they they literally didn't know what you meant. So that there was there was nothing there was nothing to go on. you know There wasn't any buzz words that were going around people's heads to say back to you, like, where do you get your protein? Or or what about this? What about that?
00:18:19
Speaker
you know it it was just So it it was a glorious time of sweet ignorance amongst the population and people just left you alone.
Diversity and Changing Demographics in Veganism
00:18:25
Speaker
But at that time, everyone and anyone else that you met who was vegan was an activist.
00:18:31
Speaker
All the vegans were activists at that time. If you were going along to, I remember going along to a Compassion and World Farming demonstration in Cork once and the organizers, the CIWF organizers, halfway through pulled out ham sandwiches to to eat for their lunchtime.
00:18:47
Speaker
ah Me and a friend of mine were the only vegans there. That has changed enormously. But the sort of flip side of that is that because there are a lot more vegans, there was also a lot more dilution of the energy behind it or of the single focus behind it.
00:19:03
Speaker
and you get a lot more different so so so sorts of people involved. When I went vegan-first, the only other people I knew who were vegan were anarchist punks. That was it. There were other vegans around the country who weren't anarchist punks, but ah but but I hadn't met them yet. So we were that niche of a niche of a niche. you know It was just subterranean. It was so far underground.
00:19:22
Speaker
So it's wonderful to see the spread of veganism. But as I say, the sort of the flip side is that is that you meet people who are or from different sides, from across the spectrum, socially, politically, all the rest of it. And I guess we have to be accommodating and they are they are part of the movement, but and it has changed enormously.
00:19:41
Speaker
and that is part of the change that you get different types of people. Yeah. ah yeah I'd like to just quickly ask a question and Chantel again, I see you're ready to come in with something. ah just Just relating back to something we were saying earlier, is it as simple as saying that to be activists and to be to be vegans, you know, to to sustain ourselves as vegans, we need to put our own oxygen mask on first to use a cliche.
00:20:06
Speaker
So if that means that you're feeling socially isolated and the way that you need to deal with that, is you need to have a little whinge to your friend about it or vent about the fact that you turned up at at a restaurant and there was no food there.
00:20:23
Speaker
If the way that you need to deal with that is to outwardly feel a bit sorry for yourself, I i don't know a better way of phrasing it like that, then actually that's what you need to do. I mean, the the most extreme example that I gave at the top of the show was was somebody being assaulted or being intimidated. I don't think there's any question there. don't think anyone there would be saying oh no it's you know veganism is about animal rights so we shouldn't be drawing attention to ourselves by complaining about the fact that we got punched in the face or whatever no one's going to say that are they but i wonder if it's the case for for all of these that actually we we do just need to do what we need to kind of make sure we're resourced first and then we can be a bit more selfless for the animals is it as simple as saying that yeah
00:21:07
Speaker
I think so, actually. Podcast over. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. we We do feel put out. I feel put out if they don't have the vegan option. But like I was saying, I think it's ultimately because we are living in more modern times. Now it's the 21st century.
00:21:24
Speaker
And I'm put out because i am astounded at people's lack of education towards veganism. How ignorant can you be? umm pissed off humans anyway. And it just makes me even more pissed off with them when a restaurant can't provide a vegan option now. And it's not for me necessarily. It's the fact that, oh my God, that means you're all still eating animals and you're so oblivious to their suffering.
00:21:47
Speaker
because you can't provide one vegan option in your restaurant. And it just pisses me off because it's like, it's the 21st century. We have social media. We have um people like Piers Morgan obsessing over vegans all the time.
00:21:59
Speaker
We have farmers obsessing over vegans all the time. And you're going... But are you actually protected by the Equality Act? We're going to pretend you're not and and just not give you a vegan option.
00:22:11
Speaker
So I think that is a disgrace. I'm unsure whether I'm really personally insulted or not by it. I'm just actually just insulted that I had to share oxygen with humans that are that ignorant. think that's what I'm more pissed off about. But it's like Mark was saying...
00:22:28
Speaker
Everyone used to be an activist. We didn't go, I'm an activist. I'm a vegan activist. Let's make everything about my activism. i did this today. And all this virtue signaling that's now come around with these new vegans. It's like Mark was saying, we all used to be activists. We just used to bowl up to events and just be like, well, we're just going to swear at people and get angry. I remember my first protest was in London.
00:22:53
Speaker
And that's a two, three hour journey. And we all just bowled up and it was for the Yulin dog meat trade. And we marched to the Chinese embassy and we gave them a petition and it was huge.
00:23:04
Speaker
And yeah, of course, non-vegans were there because the hypocrites that are against dog slaughter that will eat pigs are obviously going to be there, aren't they? But it was just something we did because it was wrong and it was an injustice. So we just fought against it, you know.
00:23:19
Speaker
But now it's become such a thing like you don't do activism. And it's like, actually, I did nine or 10 years ago. I just have taken a break from it for maybe six months. so just loads of photos of you pretending to do this.
00:23:33
Speaker
And you didn't actually have a single conversation with anyone all day. And actually, you can't hold a conversation between one of your friends. i have no idea how you do outreach. It doesn't mean that you're a better activist than me. And it's this buzzword of activism now that A lot of people within this movement seem to be like it's a competition. I think that's what's pissing me off is that people now see activism as a competition where Mark's saying everyone just used to be an activist. Get over yourself.
00:24:01
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? Mark used to say everyone used to be an activist. I'm saying I agree, Mark. Everyone used to be an activist. We all are yeah vegans anyway. Just by being vegan is a stance.
00:24:14
Speaker
It is activism. by existing as a vegan in this world. That's activism in itself. Yeah, it's it's it's definitely something to to be watchful of, isn't it? that those those Those different stances that that that folk could... let's Let's be generous. Let's say that people could could drift into that with without realising that they they're starting to, like you say, Chantelle, become more megan.
00:24:37
Speaker
than vegan. I do like that phrase. I've not heard that one before. i'd I'd like to draw things to a close by asking the kind of question that ah I've asked us before on these sort of shows.
00:24:48
Speaker
um I'm putting you on the spot, Mark and and Chantal, it so well I'll try and do the same too. Just think of a couple of examples, and they and they can be real or or but just hypothetical, of just something that goes over the line for you in one direction and goes over the line in the other direction specifically with regards to would you draw attention to the dissatisfaction or the unjustness or what have you that you might be feeling about something as a vegan or a time when you might not just to kind of draw the distinction of of like actually sometimes it's good to kick up a fuss and say hey i'm being discriminated against here or hey this is not good enough.
00:25:33
Speaker
Versus another time where you might say, do you know what? I'm just going to absorb this. Like you were saying, Mark, I'm going to use that thick skin I've got as a social justice minded vegan.
00:25:44
Speaker
So if I can, if I can get the ball rolling, I remember doing, and it it it was some, some on the street outreach, actually doing ah an anonymous for the voiceless many years ago. And there was a ah few of us doing it.
00:25:59
Speaker
And it was bitterly cold. It was so, so, so cold. But there was just this unspoken agreement between all of us that we were going to stick it out because the animals that we were advocating on behalf would would be out in that all year round. They don't have the option of dipping into Costa and and kind of warming up or what have you.
00:26:19
Speaker
So we didn't sort of stand around moaning, going like, oh, isn't it hard being out on the street advocating as a vegan? Oh, isn't life hard? We just kind of sucked it up and employed that thick skin. So that would be a time when I wouldn't like draw attention to it.
00:26:34
Speaker
And then I guess times when I would come back to say the restaurant example, um I rarely will kind of be, um listeners that that know me, no, I'm not very good at direct confrontation.
00:26:47
Speaker
So I'll go more the kind of like, oh, it's really great that you did us a vegan option. Like you could put even more things on your menu if you wanted to. Here are some ideas rather than giving them a bollocking for doing a bad job of only having one thing. But that would be something where I i would directly say something and say, hey, I think you could do a bit more.
00:27:07
Speaker
Mark, you happy to to jump in with with your examples? An example where you you would say something and an example where you would just absorb it and employ that thick skin. Yeah, I remember once being out in this beautiful seaside town, little village here um in New Zealand called Piha. It's quite famous for its surfing and all the rest of it. And there was ah there was, it's closed down now, but there was a restaurant there overlooking the cliffs of the sea, really beautiful. And I was there once, i was there a few times actually, and I would order the only vegan option on the menu, which which which was a homemade vegan. burger patty sort of thing it was a veggie burger so it wasn't ah an impossible meal it wasn't a purchased brand of patty it was a homemade one and it was I know if you get this but when you when you get some food prepared by a non-vegan for for vegans and you can tell was a non-vegan that made it and they've never even tasted this in fact they possibly had
00:28:03
Speaker
and you can sort of almost feel that so you you get this but this veggie burger on a huge big bun. It it looked impressive. It looked huge. It looked like you know a burger should look right with a little cocktail stick going through and a little flag on the top, all the rest of it, right?
00:28:19
Speaker
All the trimmings were there and it looked brilliant. But as soon as you picked it up and ah ah bit into it, it was so soft and smudgy that the the patty itself would just splodge out in every direction. It was messy.
00:28:31
Speaker
It wasn't particularly tasty. It was really awkward to eat. and It was just an awful, but awful experience. And I had it about three times because it was the only thing in like in a row. was the only time it was it was it was the only thing I could eat. And on the third occasion, I said to to to my wife, who worked who I was eating with at the time, I said, look, I've got to say something to to the to the owner here because I think they think we really love this.
Personal Experiences and Feedback in Social Situations
00:28:57
Speaker
And they clearly have never tried it because it's an impossible thing to eat. The original impossible burger, impossible to eat. Yeah, impossible to eat burger. So after a bit of debating as to whether I should or not, um because ah cause I was sort of angry because they because they were charging a lot of money for this.
00:29:14
Speaker
And I ah could see the other meat burgers being and brought brought up past me and they were clearly tended to differently, you know. and So I did, in the end, i gave the manager a phone call after I'd calmed down and I'd been home for a few hours and then and and the the anger had subsided and i I knew could be a bit more objective and calm about it. And I said, look, speaking as a vegan to, I presume, a non-vegan, and he goes, yeah, I'm a non-vegan. Your burgers are awful.
00:29:43
Speaker
They run away from you as soon as you get into them. They're like animals that are still alive almost. And he actually, Probably because I was very polite about it and I was saying, look, as a vegan and as a vegan who wants to continue coming to your establishment, please buy in Impossible Burger patties. They're cheap if you buy them wholesale and they they this theyre they they're great. And it'll save you having to do the work you clearly don't know how to do and don't like doing.
00:30:09
Speaker
That's the end That's the only conclusion. And he actually took it very well. The ah place closed out a few months later. and So I so in so in i ah never got back to see if he actually took this advice on board.
00:30:20
Speaker
And now the place is gone. So as an example, I'm not sure if it worked. But um I ah suppose the the advice I'm giving is if you do feel angry about it or feel disappointed at the time, maybe don't make a complaint there and then. Or at least if you're me, don't make a complaint there and then because it won't be taken well because it won't be delivered ah particularly well.
00:30:39
Speaker
So wait till you've calmed down if you're bit like me around these things and then get in there and and say it as a selling point that me and people like me will go will go back to your place a lot more often if you serve food that shows they have a bit of knowledge and respect around it.
00:30:56
Speaker
So in that case, I think it's it's very valid and important to complain. The example I gave earlier on of being awake at a friend's parents' funeral um getting the and my friend getting a plate of peas, there wasn't butter on them or anything, there was just some salt because that was the only vegan thing there, is salt and pepper and peas.
00:31:15
Speaker
I had the salt, pepper, peas and chips. I wasn't going to make complaint at all. um it would it It would just seem in bad taste, pardon the pun. It just wasn't appropriate.
00:31:26
Speaker
and The whole occasion really wasn't about me or my friend or or food really either. So I let that one go. So it's important to know when to let stuff go and when not to let stuff go.
00:31:37
Speaker
It's an important distinction to make. And then to act on the things that you shouldn't let go. Try and do it civilly. Words can hurt. Unless you're dealing with huntscum or something like that, then full anger.
00:31:48
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. That's brilliant. Thank you, Mark. Chantal, come on then. ah Show us where your line is. ah um An example where you might say something and ah an example where you might just ah keep shtum.
00:31:59
Speaker
I just want to refer back to Mark's story about ordering a burger he hated three times. the kind of feel like he was partly to blame.
00:32:13
Speaker
except for peas like what is the phrase told me once told me once yeah yeah stream on me yeah three times yeah and if i thought if i hadn't gone closed down and i had gone back i would have ordered it again yeah I just don't have a lot of sympathy for you because you just... I feel like you don't complain enough, actually. I should have complained the first time, yeah. You should have been angry from me off.
00:32:43
Speaker
and rather than the third time it suddenly got to you. So um I'm going actually, i I would have used a funeral as my example of a good time not to complain. It was my granddad's funeral about five, six years ago.
00:32:58
Speaker
And majority of the guests were actually vegan because it was my mum, me, my dad. I think one of my cousins at the time was vegan. My brother, my grandma at the time was plant-based.
00:33:11
Speaker
So... We actually outweighed the non-vegans and the catering options that were provided were majority non-vegan.
00:33:24
Speaker
Loads of lovely dessert looking desserts and stuff, pecan pies and everything that weren't vegan. lots of chicken legs and awful things like that. And I really did want to complain because most of us were vegan and we got raw cauliflower to dip in hummus and that's about it. And salad and stuff like that.
00:33:44
Speaker
And the catering was very poor in terms of veganism, considering that there was mostly vegans there. But I didn't complain because it was my granddad's funeral. A time that I would complain is, like I mentioned earlier, at work, when the equality and diversity email keeps coming through about everyone we need to be respecting in the workplace and veganism continuously isn't mentioned.
00:34:09
Speaker
And considering we're protected by the same Equality Act, this is when I get a bit of Sharon, is considering we're now protected thanks to Geordie Kassman-Jara, by the Equality Act of 2010, am going to use that in the place of work because they want to all be inclusive and about equality and diversity.
00:34:27
Speaker
And then they completely miss off a whole section of people who are protected by this act. But then they just furthered the situation and my anger with it all by previously having loads of meetings and inviting me along and eating in front of me when I'd asked Just give me 30 seconds to leave the room before you crack into your ham sandwich and pushing off about me asking that and this and that and that. There were few things that, oh, I got sent non-vegan sweet when I was made redundant to apply for my job back and do more work for...
00:35:01
Speaker
shit pay still. And they sent me non vegan sweets. And I was told they were vegan friendly. So they acknowledged i was vegan and sent me non vegan sweets. So I moaned. And then this email that kept coming through about the equality and from the air equality and diversity team.
00:35:18
Speaker
still not mentioning veganism for me to go, actually, I'm really disappointed to see you're still not mentioning veganism in the workplace, um considering we are protected by the Equality Act. For the head of communications at this big charity I work for to go, technically, you're not protected.
00:35:33
Speaker
I thought, ah here's a link. Here's all the links. And I had meetings and all sorts. Unfortunately, I then went off sick from work for a couple of months because of this assault.
00:35:46
Speaker
And I took some time off work recently and I only went back to work this week after it all because I just needed some time out for my own headspace, you know. So I haven't got back in touch with them, but they want me to training courses and everything with people. Well, hopefully i I will be doing training courses with people because I very much pointed out to them that we are protected by Equality Act and we are very technically protected.
00:36:11
Speaker
a protected characteristic so you're entirely wrong and this is very embarrassing considering you are head of communications and this is off the back of an equality and diversity email so that is a really good time to complain yeah yeah a big charity that you work for keeps fucking up like that and then tells you that you're the wrong one so yeah those are the those are the situations yes at work in the workplace very much complain i've whipped out the veganism in the workplace document when i was temping for border falls and they didn't seem to get it and they changed their ways immediately but for some reason this big charity i work for that's all about inclusivity ironically they completely missed the mark so that is when i would complain but not at my granddad's funeral yeah well it sounds sounds like the the action that you have you have taken in the past has made a big impact that's awesome
00:37:01
Speaker
ah So can I ask about, yeah, i'm aware that the that vegans are now included in this in this diversity act. what What does it mean for like on on the on the ground then over there in terms of,
00:37:14
Speaker
What does it obligate organisations to do? do are they Do they have to... How is this enacted and in a in reality, the fact that vegans are now seen as a protected demograph within the law? What what does it change? in ah In the place of work, you're not that you shouldn't be subject to ridicule and scrutiny and criticism.
00:37:36
Speaker
Basically, if you're like, basically in line with like anti-racism and the gay community and everything, we're just protected in exactly the same way as them. So you can't, we can't be the butt jokes.
00:37:48
Speaker
They have to provide different catering equipment as well. if you worked in an office, for example, you'd be entitled to spoons, especially for you. and plant-based milk in the fridge. And if you are feeling bullied or harassed at work through it, you can make formal complaints and it can go to probably, I think, an employment tribunal because that is how it got won in the first place. Because Geordie Kathmandara is the one that won the vote for us because he actually took his employers to court over it all because he worked for the Humane League.
00:38:19
Speaker
I was going to say it was really ironic because his employer was like as it was a supposedly animal-friendly charity. Someone like that. but Yeah, and he didn't like where his pension was going or coming from or something. So he brought it up with his employers who were an animal charity and they fired him on the back of him complaining that he didn't like...
00:38:40
Speaker
how unethical his um pension fund was or something. So he ended up taking them to an employment tribunal. And this was in 2020. And he actually won us the protection as a philosophical belief that we have to be respected.
00:38:58
Speaker
So and and we are now protected by the Equality Act of 2010 as a result of him taking his employers, this employment tribunal. So any anything you can think of that needs to be included in the workplace,
00:39:11
Speaker
in terms of equality and diversity. So it it ah reminds me of a story told by Ronnie Lee, the co-founder of the Animal Liberation Fund and his first stint in prison. This is back in the early 70s and he was nicked for something rather setting fire to a lab or something like that. was served a few years to serve in prison and of course vegans then weren't represented in the food that you would get in prison. So he went on hunger strike and then he got ah vegan food as as a part of a staple diet.
00:39:40
Speaker
But because the vegan food was generally cooked first and cooked in much smaller batches, ah you had a lot of the regular sort of hardened criminals claiming to be vegan because they were getting access to better food.
00:39:52
Speaker
And plus they they could get stuff like vegan chocolates and sweets sent into them as part of their diet. So for a while you had the the largest demograph who were claiming to be vegans in the UK were hardened criminals and bankholders and so because they were getting access to better food. I think that's a really positive thing because it introduces people to vegan food that wouldn't have necessarily tried it at all.
00:40:15
Speaker
So I think that is, again, positive. Claim that you're vegan, but most people want to do the opposite, you know? and I find it in, I always say it in, like, I don't eat in fast food chains a lot, but if a friend ever goes to fast food chain and I'm taking them or whatever,
00:40:31
Speaker
um What I notice is their food always comes out later as they have to prepare it separately, especially because there's not high demand for a vegan KFC burger, for example.
00:40:42
Speaker
So we have to wait in the bay for it. And it always comes out piping hot because there's not a huge demand. So it hasn't been sitting around for ages.
Humorous Anecdotes and Listener Engagement
00:40:51
Speaker
And I can actually confirm that even in Norfolk Wimden police station I had to stay there for a number of hours I think i was in there for 12 hours I got all sorts of vegan food offered to me I got vegan lasagna pot noodles not actually pot noodles but you know like yeah like so they they are but I think vegan breakfast they're doing as well I just love the idea of just being in a police cell and just being offered Buja Buja chocolates, you know, oh do you want a Vigo bar? yeah You know, we've got Beyond Burger here if you want it. Like, yeah, it's the best food in town.
00:41:27
Speaker
It wasn't as bougie as Booja Booja, but yeah, there was fine options for vegans. I didn't go hungry. Mark? Yeah, i remember once being in a cell up in Glasgow Police Station. There was a whole lot of us nicked for blockading and nuclear weapons transport that was going from Aldershot up to Fastlane Peace Camp, Fastlane Nuclear Power Base. right and i was staying on the peace camp at the time and we had blockaded the road. it was Nagasaki day or something.
00:41:54
Speaker
And about 50 of us were in this massive cell in the police station in Glasgow. And there there was a knock on the cell and the door opened and a policeman was there with a menu board saying, right guys, who's a vegan, who's vegetarian? And all all the all the vegans would would would i put their hands up. it I mean, it was like being at a restaurant basically.
00:42:13
Speaker
but we were all in this room, there was standing room only, and he was taking down our orders that of the food that we wanted. he He would ask us, where do you get that? And then he would he would write down the name of the shop. Then him him and a colleague drove off to central Glasgow, bought all this really nice vegan food and delivered, well, some of it was microwave stuff, some of it was chocolate, some of it was just fruit, but we we were served pretty good food at the Glasgow police station by a very accommodating policeman, I must say. Oh, thank you. Where do you get that from? Oh, it's the Michelin-style restaurant, plates. You need to go there, get their tasting. Glasgow Club Shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I should have done a TripAdvisor review of the place afterwards. It's a little bit colder and drafty, but the food is great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Great service. Great service.
00:43:00
Speaker
I love the the idea of being in Glasgow Police Station as well. I bet that was interesting. That is a police station. You'd want to see the inside of Pretty grim. Goodness me. But if you had to be in any police station, do it properly and go to Glasgow Police Station. Exactly. The food is too firm.
00:43:19
Speaker
Exactly. Hardened criminals in then and then, you know, all the drug addicts. Yeah. That sounds brilliant. Well, haven't we gone on an interesting journey with this recording? and We've gone from Megan's taking their selfies ah ah activism to being inside police cells.
00:43:38
Speaker
As ever, we really, really love hearing what are you listening have got to say. You might disagree with something we've said. There might be ah an angle that we've missed, or you might want to share your examples of where you might pipe up and say something, or you might just let it pass. Here is how to get in touch with us.
00:43:57
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective, our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:44:16
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com Brilliant. Thank you so much, Chantel. Thank you so much, Mark. That was a really grand episode. I really hope that everybody listening enjoyed it too. If you did enjoy it, we love receiving a review. We love it even more if it's a five-star one, but we'd prefer that you're honest, even if you don't like it. So do that and share the show with folk.
00:44:43
Speaker
um that you think might be interested in hearing it too because we've not got gazillions of pounds to pay marketing or get AI bots to do it for us. So what we really do value your own personal referrals and reviews there. So thank you in advance for anyone who's able to do that.
00:45:01
Speaker
so The next Enough of the Falafel episode coming out is available from Monday with Carlos, Dominic and Ant. And it will be a Vegan Week episode, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:45:17
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the Falafel for this episode. Thanks, Chantel. Thanks, Anthony, for all your contributions. Thank you, everyone, for listening. I've been Mark and you've been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:45:35
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:45:49
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:46:16
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world each week.
00:46:41
Speaker
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00:46:51
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.