Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
189- Animal abuse sentencing: 475 years in jail, or a slap on the wrist?
112 Plays1 month ago
This week we are changing things up and instead of focussing on ten different stories from the last week, we are looking at eight stories from the last year, all on the same topic: Judicial sentencing for cases of animal abuse. Comparing cases from animal ag, with those away from animal ag, Kate, Carlos & Ant weigh up the inconsistencies and map out their ideas for a more just judicial approach.
****************
Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
*******************
This week's stories:
https://www.detsi.qld.gov.au/our-department/news-media/mediareleases/animal-cruelty-int-student-receives-prison-term-wildlife-smuggling
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/man-senteced-475-years-dog-fighting-paulding-county
https://eu.cjonline.com/story/news/crime/2024/11/15/topeka-animal-cruelty-case-judge-sentences-woman-jail/76332220007/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ahttps://eu.cjonline.com/story/news/crime/2024/11/15/topeka-animal-cruelty-case-judge-sentences-woman-jail/76332220007/rticles/cpe3znzjvxyo
https://pembrokeshire-herald.com/101153/farm-operators-prosecuted-for-severe-animal-welfare-violations-at-cildywyll-farm/
https://www.shropshirelive.com/news/2025/04/03/animal-welfare-charity-secures-landmark-lifetime-ban-for-three-shropshire-calf-dealers/
https://www.staffordshire.gov.uk/Newsroom/Articles/2025/03-March/Livestock-owner-banned-for-10-years-for-breaching-animal-welfare-rules.aspx
https://www.farminguk.com/news/suffolk-farmer-fined-27-000-after-dozens-of-dead-sheep-found_66146.html
****************
Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Carlos, Kate & Ant
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Week Podcast
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone and welcome to Vegan Week. We are your weekly news discussion show focusing on vegan and animal rights news. I'm Anthony, joining me for this episode are Kate and Carlos, but that's enough of the falafel, let's get on with the show.
00:00:16
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used Brrrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:35
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the...
00:00:43
Speaker
social injustice has connection another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns
Animal Cruelty Focus and Case Summaries
00:00:52
Speaker
you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:58
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hey, hello everybody. This is Carlos and welcome to the Enough of the Falafel podcast and thank you so much for being here. Hi everyone, it's Kate with you.
00:01:13
Speaker
Great to be here. So this is our news story show where we get to discuss animal rights and vegan news issues from last week's vegan and animal rights news. Usually. Except, except, exactly. We are not going to do that this week. We've had to record um a couple of weeks ahead of when you're listening to this, if you're listening in timely fashion.
00:01:37
Speaker
So rather than look at the last seven days, what we're going to do is look at a set of news stories from the last year or so, all focusing on the same sort of topic. Because sometimes we see themes in the news and whilst you're It's interesting to comment on individual stories.
00:01:54
Speaker
Sometimes when you piece things together, you can see a bit of a flavor of what is going on in the world with regards to a certain topic at the moment. So for this episode, Carlos, Kate and myself, we are focusing on animal cruelty, punishments and sentences in a legal sense that against animal cruelty or neglect both within animal agriculture and outside of it. So that is going to be our focus.
00:02:21
Speaker
But this episode, we've got eight stories we're going to compare and contrast from the last 12 months. But that is enough of the falafel. Let's get on with the show.
00:02:35
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode, available on your podcast player.
00:02:50
Speaker
Okay, before we get started, and it's fair to give everybody a content warning. Now, obviously, we're going to be talking about things where a law has been broken, somebody or a group of people have been sentenced.
00:03:04
Speaker
I mean, there's plenty that goes on against animals that is legal in terms of animal agriculture, where nobody would be prosecuted and it's still horrendous and billions of animals are still losing their lives.
00:03:16
Speaker
But we could even argue that the things we're going be covering are possibly even worse than those because they've they've transgressed society's laws. So just a little content warning for you there.
00:03:30
Speaker
We're going to start off by looking at four stories that are not from animal agriculture. So they've still reached the courts. People have still been prosecuted for animal cruelty or neglect or smuggling or whatever.
00:03:42
Speaker
but they're not to do with farms. I'm just gonna give a very brief outline of all four stories. So here's the first of the four. This comes to us from the Queensland government's website in Australia.
00:03:54
Speaker
um From the 19th of March, 2025, an international university student studying in Australia has been convicted of multiple wildlife trafficking offenses and sentenced to 18 in prison.
00:04:10
Speaker
Between the 12th of May and the 1st of November in 2023, they attempted to export 10 individual packages containing 15 lizards from Queensland to China, with an estimated street value of just under 75,000. I assume it's Australian dollars, though I suppose often these things are Americanised, aren't they? Obviously, all the links in the show notes for these stories.
00:04:35
Speaker
But yeah, they got 18 months imprisonment with a non-parole period of five months. So I take that to mean they definitely will be in prison for five months, possibly up to 18, I guess, depending on things like appeals and good behaviour and all of that.
00:04:50
Speaker
So 18 months in prison after trafficking 10 individual packages containing 15 lizards from Queensland in Australia to China. That's our first story.
00:05:02
Speaker
The next story is from USA. This is brought to us from Fox News, Atlanta. It says, man sentenced to 475 years for dog fighting in Paulding County.
00:05:17
Speaker
This is in Georgia, I believe, if my abbreviations of US states is correct. This is for more than 100 dog fighting and animal cruelty charges.
00:05:28
Speaker
um There was a raid on the property of Vincent Burrell in November 2022. And an eyewitness ah said, everywhere you looked, you couldn't take a step in any one direction without there being another pit bull staked out on a chain.
00:05:42
Speaker
And the purpose of doing that is dog fighting. Dogs were malnourished, living in deplorable conditions. So they went to trial facing 93 counts of dog fighting, 10 counts of cruelty to animals. And after a four-day trial,
00:05:57
Speaker
ah They were guilty found guilty on all counts and handed down the maximum sentence of 475 years in prison. Okay, two more to go. i hope you're keeping up.
00:06:09
Speaker
Another one from USA, another one featuring dogs. This is from ah Topeka, which to the best of my knowledge is in Kansas, ah where a Shawnee County District court judge refused a plea agreement that would have enabled a Topeka woman to avoid jail time on four convictions for animal cruelty.
00:06:29
Speaker
The accused Desiree Therrien, I think that's how you say it, has got to serve 14 days in jail. Reading through the article, it looks like they can choose when those are within the certain timeframe, but 14 days in jail.
00:06:42
Speaker
This is because more than 70 animals, most of them dogs and cats, were rescued from their home at the start of this year. In addition, 18 deceased animals were found.
00:06:55
Speaker
um And this particular news article is about the appeal that was turned down But yeah, the headline is 14 days in jail. Her boyfriend is getting jail time as well.
00:07:05
Speaker
And there was some talk of um supervised probation and things like that too. And then the final one, back to the UK. This comes to us from the BBC on the 19th of July last year, so nearly a year old.
00:07:19
Speaker
Two men found guilty of illegal fox hunting at two separate events in Norfolk. That's in the east of the country. um They were fined £500 for each offence.
00:07:31
Speaker
They had to pay court costs and a victim's surcharge, which took the total to £1,700 each.
00:07:40
Speaker
There's various details of the offences. It looks like one fox was killed and it looks like the hunt was found to be not in control of the dogs, basically. So dogs on two trail hunts were dangerously out of control, causing criminal dion damage and killing a fox.
00:07:58
Speaker
Although the district judge said there was insufficient evidence to prove charges of dogs dangerously out of control. though it very much sounds
Inconsistencies in Animal Cruelty Punishments
00:08:05
Speaker
like it. So Kate, we've asked you to look at those four miserable stories. I mean, we can look at it as a positive that people are ah ah getting prosecuted, that these things are being reported in the media, etc, etc.
00:08:18
Speaker
First of all, what what was your general response to to reading these stories? What jumped out at you? And how did you feel? ah They're quite horrific, aren't they, when you think of the individual animals involved and the just appalling conditions that some of, well, all of them had to suffer.
00:08:38
Speaker
I found it interesting that not everybody has been banned from keeping animals. In fact, the woman who and her partner, who basically, they I mean, she's obviously got mental health problems of some sort. She was hoarding animals, so hoarding animals really I'd say, wouldn't you? So this was the case in Topeka, Kansas where there were 18 dead animals found and more than 70 animals also rescued from the property.
00:09:07
Speaker
So she's been banned while she's on probation, which I can't remember how long that... 12 months. Yeah, 12 months. And her boyfriend has been banned for the two years that he's had a suspended sentence. so he's got I think he has to go to prison, hasn't he, as well? But yeah, after that, they're free to have animals again. i mean, ah what sort of justice is that for the animals?
00:09:35
Speaker
but Well, I mean, when you compare that to the to the man who's been given 475 years in prison for dogfighting, obviously dogfighting is deplorable. But I mean, so is having 18 dead animals and in your house and another 70 that needed to be rescued. I mean, there are pictures of the...
00:09:57
Speaker
of the animals that have been subject to the the dog fighting and and kept. But, I mean, was there any any statement of of animals that have died because of that? I mean, I'm i'm not saying it's okay.
00:10:10
Speaker
I'm not... like I can't actually remember off the top of my head. I think there were some injured, at least. But, obviously, in the fighting, dogs die, don't they? And are horribly injured.
00:10:21
Speaker
But I'm guessing... So, hit the dog fighting... I guess they're looking at the intention behind it. I mean, he was doing it for profit. And it's linked to organised crime, so they're saying. So linked to other things like drugs and guns and all the rest of it.
00:10:39
Speaker
Whereas um the poor, unfortunate woman... Well, I say poor, unfortunate woman. you know She's obviously got some sort of mental... And rather than collecting, hoarding, don't I don't know what... It could be anything. It could be anything at all. and It know could be pictures, could be ornaments, could be anything.
00:10:59
Speaker
ah She's hoarding animals. and she's she's even She's got a two-year-old child as well. they They described the inside of the house as being covered in faeces and filth and the animals not having having to drink from a sink of dirty water.
00:11:16
Speaker
you know, totally really neglected. You could argue that actually the animals, although they were having to fight and they were being kept outside on chains, but close enough to really aggravate each other, they the the neglected animals probably had suffered more in that they were being starved and that neglected have not having any any illnesses treated, any cancers treated or anything like that. but it's I found it interesting because, in a sense, the Lizards story, and that was also linked to organised crime in a way.
00:11:52
Speaker
Apparently, in China, well, it is. It's it's you know it's smuggling and it's linked, again, it's apparently it's linked to like drugs and various other things as well. i mean, obviously, the students, I suppose that the intention they were trying to get profit, they were they were trying to get money for it without any thought of the animals and what they were having to go through. Whereas,
00:12:14
Speaker
Again, fox story and the hunts people, on the face of it, but I think they deem that as a not-for-profit, although it's a wildlife crime. The lizards, they are endangered, whereas foxes, well, they're ten a penny, according to what most people think in this country.
00:12:32
Speaker
I mean, that would that was a maddening one, that that the foxes one. Obviously, you know, it can feel particularly pertinent to us. in the UK and and like particularly having you on the show, Carlos, like to see seeing the poultry fines that they they were fined. I just thought that that's just a joke. Like you could you could pay that and not notice that the money's gone out your account almost.
00:12:55
Speaker
Yeah, you gotta, don't forget this is a country of animal lovers, right? And then the other countries of non-animal lovers actually have custodial sentences for animal abuse, which just just goes to show.
00:13:07
Speaker
But I have to correct you there, Kate, on something. Fox hunting and in the context of trail hunting, which is... how they disguise it, it is a commercial activity. that's what i That's what I thought. But it I mean, that's what I think. I think it's a commercial activity, but it's I don't think it's being treated as such.
00:13:26
Speaker
Do you know what I mean? You know, so it is illegal to do that or to hunt the fox. But I think they it's kind of deemed as a ah less commercial activity. No, i think like the the small sentences are because due to the way the Hunting Act is written, ah you can claim these were accidents that happened during a illegal activity. So these would be these would be considered the same as, you know, you were farming and, you know, you lost control of your tractor and went over a fox, you know, and you were careless, you were careless and an animal died during illegal activity.
00:14:03
Speaker
That just happens to involve animals trained to kill foxes. What's interesting though is the judge has said to to one of the defendants, if that's the right terms, you should have known better. You didn't just hunt once, you hunted twice. On the second occasion, an animal that parliament legislated should not be killed by a dog was killed.
00:14:25
Speaker
That's been the law for almost 20 years. And yet on my verdict, on both occasions, whilst you may have been following trails, you took the opportunity to act unlawfully. now That's pretty damning. But at the end of it, he's got fined no more than £2,000.
00:14:38
Speaker
just like, what? like what Yeah. and And what's even worse is that some of, yeah obviously, the you know these fines only go to the employees of the hunt. They rarely go to the organizers of the hunt. And we know that you know people who organize the trail hunting are as criminal as the you know the actual actual people executing the hunt on the ground, hunt the huntsmen.
00:15:01
Speaker
Even it some of these huntsmen, they're not particularly wealthy. They they just kind of hired hi hands. Some of them are kind of farmhands and they kind of um the weekend they get They do this kind of part-time job sometimes or full-time in some occasions. And, you know, the the hunt master will pay these fines.
00:15:17
Speaker
You know, it's it's like, you know, running a company, your employee gets fined in the course of doing business for you. You're going to pay their fine, right? it's it's all part It's all the costs of doing business. And so I guess and for this for these four news, I guess that last one, I think that's just ah a case of the Hunting Act being written in such a poor way with so many loopholes that it allows this kind of bit about it being an accident off ah through on the course of a legal activity.
00:15:44
Speaker
would say, though, I was very surprised about the size of the sentence for the dogfighting. But I guess that's to be expected in a very speciesist society. And i'm talking about the US, but I could be talking about most of the world, really, where crimes against dogs are seen as more heinous than crimes against other species. So I was very surprised with that sentence.
00:16:04
Speaker
And I guess the sentence for the trafficking of animals, I agree with you, Kate. I mean, that's I think it's because it's a commercial activity. It's like fraud in a way. It's like you know something that impacts business, impacts...
00:16:18
Speaker
you know, the ah kind of running of business, because even though it's it's illegal to traffic, there's animals that are other animals which are legal, other exotic animals which are legal to move between countries and sell. And, you know, we we can't have this kind of smuggling because that impacts like a legitimate business in a way.
00:16:35
Speaker
So it's a bit of a mixed bag least at this point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I wondered if the um the smuggling one was whether the the kind of harshness of it, because it did did surprise me,
00:16:48
Speaker
was kind of because of international relations or something like that. I was wondering if you were posting lizards through the mail from one side of Australia to the other. I wondered whether the sentence would be quite as strong, whereas the fact that it's kind of like taking species from...
00:17:04
Speaker
from australia and putting them in china from a diplomatic point of view i wondered whether that could be a kind of like oh god you know each each country is going to be quite cross at the other or something like that so whether there's a bit of heavy-handedness there obviously it's cruel i mean that you know any of these things when we're comparing and contrasting we're definitely not saying oh well that
Public Involvement and Legal Reforms
00:17:24
Speaker
one's okay and it's not but it's it's interesting the it it's got to be fair to say there's inconsistency wouldn't it I think um it's partly because it comes under CITES.
00:17:35
Speaker
You know, it's one of the listed, and it's and an international agreement between governments and, you know, and it's often, and it's because it's kind of covers endangered species, you know, whose survival is threatened.
00:17:49
Speaker
So perhaps that might be Why is so severe? i don't know. well obviously, there were there were actually two people who who they'd caught doing it, um weren't there?
00:18:00
Speaker
There was another person. So maybe, you know, it's also um they're hoping it's going to stop other people thinking it was a great idea to supplement their student money with sending animals abroad in boxes with toys in. And many of them weren't going to survive either or haven't survived.
00:18:22
Speaker
So, yes. So ah can I ask, Kate, when you've you've focused on these four stories, obviously, that you know, there's going to be a mixed bag. These are just four examples.
00:18:34
Speaker
Did you get a sense when you were looking through this? as to i think it would be good if laws and rules and regulations about animal cruelty were to follow more of this kind of a line or were there any things that you thought were lacking or particularly good examples of harsh sentences or fines or anything like that like what would your takeaways be from this well yeah it is kind of a jumbled mess But one thing that was a takeaway was how much, even when it's an authority who's, um you know, pressing the, who's taking these people to court or whatever, how much they rely on ordinary people. For example, the Hunt Saabs who are
00:19:24
Speaker
A group of extraordinary, ordinary people who are going out there, they're collecting the evidence, they're collecting the video footage, they're, you know, and all of that. The the guy who with the dogfighting, that apparently relied on an Amazon driver who turned up and thought, what the earth's going on here, and reported it.
00:19:45
Speaker
You know, the the woman who's holding her, I mean, you know, in some of these cases, you can't you can't not, I mean, it's really hard to to spot things going on. And and and it takes ah a member of the public or members of the public to bring attention to them. um But how many people don't?
00:20:03
Speaker
How many people just say nothing? Basically, you know, we we were still, it's not a case of the punishment being small or big, although I'd like them to be bigger.
00:20:15
Speaker
to dissuade people from engaging in this sort of activities. But ultimately, I would like you know animals to be recognized as as a legal person, not as a property. not as property You know, like you know that that smuggled wildlife, maybe the the punishment was so so big because it was treated like stolen goods. And that's something that the judicial system is really well equipped to handle and dish out big animals.
00:20:40
Speaker
big fines or custodial sentences. But ultimately, i would like animals to have legal personhood or some sort protected status as individuals. And then, you know, they have their own interests and and things they, you know, a natural way of life that they should be allowed to pursue.
00:20:57
Speaker
And in that sense, you know, being forced to be on a chain and forced to dogfight is not in the animal's interest. So that's a crime by itself. and And laws that criminalize kind of these violent, this violations against animals as if they were violations against a being that has its own rights instead of ah property being damaged or or something along those lines, whether it's it's a pet or wildlife.
00:21:22
Speaker
and And then kind of once you once you start going down that road, you would naturally abolish any kind of exploitation that we would call justifiable. So for example, um you know, if it's a you know a trafficked lizard or a chained dog would both be considered not okay, which the courts already say is not okay, but then a farmed pig would not be okay because you know there would be like no justifiable exploitation, just just like just like how the laws work with with humans.
00:21:52
Speaker
And then you'd have a justice system that would work for the animals, not because of the animals. you know So it would consider the animals in animal interests, in living free from pain, fear,
00:22:03
Speaker
death, if the fear of death. And and that kind of yeah hopefully that would kind of create like a system or a traditional system that would build from the ground up as in a non-speciesist way.
00:22:15
Speaker
So instead of considering like the humans at the center of things, you would consider like the animals and humans at the center of it. I'd i'd like to see all these people with a lifetime ban of being anywhere near animals, really and truly.
00:22:30
Speaker
you know you don't You don't say to a rapist, oh, you've served your time. you know what mean? Sorry, that's a really bad example, isn't it?
00:22:41
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you ah you know mean i mean you you would you you wouldn't i mean i think it's okay i mean I think rapists in our society are allowed to still interact with yeah the people they might have wronged before once they they do their sentencing. but say For example, some someone who has adopted children and then 18 of their adopted children have been found dead in their house. You wouldn't say you can't adopt any more children whilst you're on probation. But once once you're out, that's fine. You can.
00:23:13
Speaker
It's fine. Yeah. I mean, you know, you know, you know that, you know, that what that harder woman is going to go back and adopt more pets. And even even if the courts don't allow her to adopt more pets. Yeah, it does seem like a pathological problem that that that she seems to have from the evidence we've looked at. But I mean, that...
00:23:31
Speaker
I've, I completely agree with what you've said, Kate. I do have an issue with a 475 year sentence, just in terms of human sentience and things like that. I'm not justifying anything that that man has done against dogs, which is deplorable and not excusable, but to say you've got to live the rest of your life in jail. For for me, I don't believe in that.
00:23:53
Speaker
However, I mean, you could say to somebody, you're not allowed to go anywhere near a dog again. That's fine. He can still live his life, you know, and, and, Depending on what you see, the right course of action in terms of rehabilitation or whatever to help him not hurt people or animals again.
00:24:10
Speaker
Fine. That's ah that's a different discussion for a different podcast. But to say you can't have animals again like that's that's fine. There's other there's other ways you can live your life. Yeah, I did find the 475 years kind of a bit ridiculous because nobody lives to 475 years, do they? You know, well maybe he was going to he had plans.
00:24:31
Speaker
yeah I mean, that's that kind of kind of cumulative sentence this is not does not exist in most European countries, where you either get there's like a maximum term, it's only in some countries, well, America, of course, that that you get like these synthees that just stack against each other, which is a bit silly anyway. I mean, I ah hate dog fighting, but 475 years for that man's not going to bring any dogs back.
00:24:53
Speaker
And I don't know if it's, I mean, let's say if you got 10 years and instead of 475, 10 years would still be enough dissuasion, enough to dissuade people from doing dog fighting because it's it's still an incredibly long amount of time. So so I don't know. I don't think it think it helps the animals or or kind of and any in any way, shape or form.
00:25:13
Speaker
And of course, banning banning from keeping animals in the same way that, for example, the those huntsmen that were caught the fox, I wouldn't want them to go to prison for 475 years, but I would think it would be legitimate to ban them from engaging in the supposedly lawful activity of trail hunting, since they proved they cannot in the way in a way which is supposed... I mean, we know it's fake, but in the way it's supposed to be legal, they cannot do it. They've clearly...
00:25:39
Speaker
demonstrated they're incompetent at keeping their dogs under control. I mean, we we know we know they did it on purpose, but let's assume with the courts, right?
Animal Agriculture and Legal Challenges
00:25:47
Speaker
So they've proven they're incompetent, so they they should not be allowed to do this dangerous activity anymore in the same way that people can lose a driving license or lose ah lose a license to, i don't know, drive and an HGV or or lose a license to practice medicine or, you know, it's a dangerous activity for wildlife. You've proven you cannot do it. You cannot do it anymore. You're banned.
00:26:07
Speaker
They also clearly lied as well and were allowed to get away with it because there was one guy who climbed over the fence. You know, how many people were with them? it couldn't have been that day. And they said, oh, no, I don't who that was.
00:26:20
Speaker
No idea. Because he had to over it. Yeah, them all denied any knowledge or... Exactly. You know, right then, that's fine. Oh, you don't know who it was. Okay. You know, for goodness sake. yeah no Indeed. Indeed. Collusion in a fox hunt. What are you talking about? Yeah. Interesting stuff. Goodness.
00:26:38
Speaker
Goodness. We've only covered four of the stories. We're going to be back with four more to chew over after this little infomercial, I'm going to call it. As well as producing these audio-based shows, our podcast hosts at Zencaster also provide the written transcript for each show.
00:26:55
Speaker
This is AI generated, so it might not always be 100% correct, but nonetheless we hope that this will increase the accessibility of our show. So to access any of these written transcripts, head over to zencaster.com forward slash vegan week.
00:27:15
Speaker
I'm going to spell it all for you.
00:27:22
Speaker
then a forward slash, and then the word vegan, V-E-G-A-N, then a hyphen, and then week. zencaster.com forward slash vegan hyphen week.
00:27:33
Speaker
and then each transcript is embedded with any of the shows that you click on.
00:27:42
Speaker
Okay, our second lot of four stories, they are all from animal agriculture, and they're all from the UK as well. Our previous four were dotted around the globe, but we've kept it UK specific for these. So,
00:27:55
Speaker
Again, I'll give a brief rundown and then we'll come to Carlos first for some comment. So, first one from the Pembrokeshire Herald, that is in Wales. 23rd of October 2024, three men, operators of a farm, been prosecuted for severe breaches of animal welfare law.
00:28:15
Speaker
Animal health officers discovered severe neglect, including dogs and puppies roaming freely with no control over breeding. Livestock living among carcasses, severely ill cattle and pigs.
00:28:27
Speaker
Between February and September 2023, 144 bovine deaths were recorded at the farm, with 32 unaccounted for, raising concerns about livestock management.
00:28:39
Speaker
and There's lots of other details too. I'm just giving you a summary. So, one of the men was sentenced to a 12-month community order with 150 hours of unpaid work and was banned from keeping livestock for five years.
00:28:53
Speaker
Another, similarly 12-month community order, five-year ban on keeping animals. And the third man, received a six-month community order and a two-year ban. The trio were ordered to pay just under £20,000 in costs and livestock was confiscated.
00:29:12
Speaker
Multiple animals removed from the farm placed with local rescue services. I wonder whether those rescue services received any money or funding or victim surcharges. I'm just thinking of animal sanctuaries that are often strapped for cash.
00:29:25
Speaker
Anyway, next story. This is from Shropshire Live. Animal welfare charity secures landmark lifetime ban for three Shropshire calf dealers. This is the Animal Justice Project.
00:29:38
Speaker
who were involved and the case was originally from April the 3rd though it's been updated on May the 27th. Three men again all from Shropshire they pleaded guilty.
00:29:49
Speaker
They've been handed a lifetime ban from keeping farmed animals. As well as the lifetime ban it can be reviewed after five years. Each defendant fined £595.00
00:30:01
Speaker
ordered to undertake 160 hours of unpaid work over the next year and must pay a £95 victim surcharge and £500 towards prosecution costs.
00:30:14
Speaker
um The investigation from the Animal Justice Project revealed shocking mistreatment of young male dairy calves deemed surplus to the dairy industry. Horrible details about to come up.
00:30:26
Speaker
Thrown down trailer ramps, lifted by their tails, kicked in the head, hurled across pens, punched, slapped, dragged by their ears, struck with sticks and pushed through metal gates.
00:30:37
Speaker
Two more stories to go This one's from Staffordshire. Livestock owner banned for 10 years for breaching animal welfare rules. This was David Webster. The hearing was on the 4th of March of this year.
00:30:51
Speaker
The Staffordshire County Council's Trading Standards Team said that this was one of the worst cases of animal welfare The team had seen recently. The defendant admitted failing to provide basic care needs to cattle that he owned and for causing unnecessary suffering to an animal by failing to seek veterinary treatment.
00:31:11
Speaker
Notice to an animal. So one one lack of veterinary treatment. There were welfare issues found at a farm in January 2024, including animals in poor condition whose basic care needs were not being provided.
00:31:25
Speaker
matt There was a suspended jail sentence, so they've not had to go, basically, so long as they don't do anything dodgy for two years. Also ordered to pay costs of just under £7,000. And our last one from Suffolk.
00:31:40
Speaker
and This comes from Farming UK, dishing the dirt, as usual for us. Suffolk farmer fined £27,000 after dozens of dead sheep found. after dozens of dead sheep found ah the dead sheep found on his land for weeks.
00:31:55
Speaker
He's a farmer and company director of the Woodbridge-based Mint and Mustard Produce Limited. Trading standards officers found carcasses and bones on three occasions with failure to comply with regulations regarding safe disposal of livestock.
00:32:11
Speaker
The company was fined £10,000 and a victim's surcharge of £2,000. The individual, Mr Parry himself, was fined £5,000 and a victim surcharge of 2,000,
00:32:23
Speaker
and ordered to pay £8,000 in costs. Again, all of these stories, there's more details if you follow the links in the show notes, but hopefully that's a more than sufficient summary for now.
00:32:36
Speaker
Carlos, we're seeing some themes there. We're seeing fines, we're seeing victim costs, and I think in all cases, although possibly this not in this last one, if everyone's had a ban from from having animals, but I couldn't see one for for this man.
00:32:51
Speaker
No, I don't think he had a ban that. But everyone else had. So there's some themes and consistency, but all the stories come from the UK. Yeah. um So maybe there's, I mean, it clearly shows that there's kind of some some consistency in terms of animal abuse in in animal like agriculture.
00:33:10
Speaker
And, um you know, the bans are heartening because ultimately this is this these people's livelihoods. if they're banned from, even the one that was banned for 10 years, I believe, I mean, that's quite a substantial ban if that's how you make your money and if that's what you your trade.
00:33:27
Speaker
And 10 years is enough that that person will need to find something else to do with their lives, hopefully something better than taking care of livestock. And even the Sepulch one, which wasn't banned, they got a fine of £27,000, which compared to the ones we discussed earlier, it's quite a bit of money with ah you know the £600 here, £2,000 here And let's not forget that there and and let's not forget you know that This means that these people's names are in the papers. And if somebody you know wants to do business with them in the future, and if they search for that name, they will see this. They will see that court decision.
00:33:59
Speaker
And you know in this case, because this is all within the animal agriculture world, you know I can only imagine that others would be reluctant to work with them. you know, to employ them and kind of invest in their business or whatever it is that they and wish to do.
00:34:14
Speaker
Ultimately, think everybody who listens to this podcast is ah is a vegan or interested in veganism. So, you know, we're opposed to all sorts of animal agriculture. But ultimately, you know, when all these cases reflect big fines, small fines, bans, no bans,
00:34:30
Speaker
is that animals are treated as property and it will be an amazing world in which animals were liberated and treated as individuals and not property.
00:34:41
Speaker
That they were not treated like just another piece of equipment or a good that can be used this way or that way. Animal welfare laws, I mean, I support, obviously I support animal welfare laws. I wish they were even stricter.
00:34:59
Speaker
There's not even the the idea of using animals for human needs. and And I think that's the difficulty with these ones from animal ag.
00:35:09
Speaker
Like when we were talking about the ones that are all away from animal agriculture, I could imagine a situation where the law is very much on the cusp of, if not actually, recognizing personhood.
00:35:23
Speaker
for animals There's always going to be a bit of a crossover where it it could be saying, oh, well that dog's my property um or whatever. I mean, the the case of the lizards from the laboratory, like, yeah, they're clearly, clearly being treated as as property. But that the others, if it's a companion animal, I could imagine ah not too distant future where they're given personhood and they're treated in the law and by society as persons and In animal ag, though, there's no way that that can be done because the whole purpose of animal agriculture is that they're objectified, that they're used.
00:35:59
Speaker
It's utilitarian, isn't it? So I don't, for me, I can't imagine a way that there can be laws protecting animals in animal agriculture that are anything other than welfarist.
00:36:11
Speaker
They that they like can't be anything else, can they? Because they're saying it's in it's acceptable to use them. Yeah, I mean, ah ultimately, the the whole idea of animal agriculture is counter to the idea that an animal is as an individual with their own interests and ways.
00:36:28
Speaker
but And often, you know, when I do outreach and I talk to non-vegans and they say, well, but, you know, it's amazing when you meet the non-vegan, the meat they eat is always like from the cow that's being pampered every night, sleeps on a sofa, gets cuddles, a blanket, watches TV,
00:36:46
Speaker
And then, okay, sure, I'm not going to dispute your little Disney fantasy world. But at the end of the day, that cow is going to be killed and the cow does not want to be killed.
00:36:57
Speaker
And so it's it's almost like impossible, impossible to have like ah an animal ah liberation approach within and still allow animal agriculture to exist. So that that's a crop a contradiction that cannot be crossed.
Role of Advocacy Groups in Legal Outcomes
00:37:11
Speaker
And um for for some of us vegans, And I guess, well, for some of us animal rights activists who don't spend our efforts on animal welfare reform,
00:37:22
Speaker
that's the that's the goal we're aiming for where you know nothing is nothing is permissible in that sense absolutely okay you um i mean comparing these to the the stories that you were looking at in one sense there's consistency but then in another sense there's there's bits where i'm looking at that and going well in a sense that guy seems like he's been treated quite harshly like or or these three have got off quite lightly did you get that impression I think there's kind of slightly more consistency over it. The one example I'm thinking of is that the Staffordshire farmer, David Webster, it says that there were there were basic care needs not being met.
00:38:02
Speaker
There was causing unnecessary suffering to an animal by failing to seek veterinary treatment. I mean, maybe I'm taking that too literally, suffering to an animal. I read that as one animal, but I guess ah if they're having basic care and he's not met, then maybe it's more than one.
00:38:16
Speaker
But he's been banned for 10 years, whereas these guys who are like kicking animals... Oh, that's a lifetime ban. Sorry. They got a lifetime ban.
00:38:27
Speaker
But the one from... Welsh people. Yeah, from Wales. That was a five-year ban. I couldn't see why after five years they're allowed to... keep animals again like the stuff that was going on on that farm sounded horrific but yeah after five years and one day yeah it's fine but not old david webster no he's he's he's got another five years to serve i mean none none of them none of them should be allowed to do it again the stakes are too high for the animals concerned absolutely his cattle were neglected, weren't they, and weren weren't allowed any access to veterinary care. I don't know. i wonder if that's because that's England and the other one's Wales.
00:39:10
Speaker
Do they have slightly different possibly rules? Possibly, yeah. I don't know. but yeah, it doesn't seem... fair the other welsh people it was a second offence i think so they had done it before as well you know are they just going to carry on again once the the the bans have come to an end yeah i don't know as well like the animal justice project were involved in the the lifetime ban and clearly there was egregious willful horrific things going on there but i wonder whether they've got
00:39:44
Speaker
folk who are going to put the time in to build like a bigger case or maybe they've got donations to to back you know a lawyer who can who can put together a more compelling case whereas the other ones seem to be like people had just reported on things or you know someone going for a walk seeing a dead sheep and that sort of thing there's maybe less of an aggressive case against them yeah but And I guess um those ones, they they yeah, they they had like that animal health department involved in trading standards, you know those great animal welfare people.
00:40:22
Speaker
m Whereas think the, believe that the calf dealers one, the animal justice from ah project, that was a private prosecution, I think.
00:40:35
Speaker
as well. So i I'm just, I know nothing about these things, really. Here I'm waffling on, I know nothing about animal law or anything like that. It seems very complicated. And like you say, just not really fair, you know, at all. And, you know, probably depends on which judge you get, whether they've whether they've had their breakfast that morning and, you know, whether they had a row with somebody before they left for work, you know, who knows? um these things These things seem to make a difference sometimes, don't they? But, I mean, well done, the Animal Justice Project, getting in there and getting all the footage. That's, again...
00:41:15
Speaker
they'd be carrying on forever, wouldn't they, doing this, if if they hadn't been caught, been spotted, because it's the sort of thing that goes on in barns, away from public footpaths, away from any public site whatsoever.
00:41:32
Speaker
So unfortunately, it takes people like this to bring all this awful stuff to light that otherwise none of us would know about.
00:41:44
Speaker
Whereas I guess some of the the other ones, yeah, like you say, it might have been spotted by, you know, passers-by, you know. dead sheep lying around, you know. And actually that that guy, £27,000, the Suffolk farmer, three times, three times. And like you say, he hasn't had a ban.
00:42:03
Speaker
But I think what they're really upset about is that they're a health hazard. there was ah Wasn't there a bin overflowing with dead sheep that some of which, you know, had God turned to sludge at the bottom? They've been there so long probably.
00:42:17
Speaker
Sorry, listeners. Sorry ah say things like that. But honestly, it's um I just think, well, yeah, maybe they're coming at it from the health hazard rather than the animal welfare side of things.
00:42:29
Speaker
You know, I don't know what you can quantifiably prove. I mean, like in the in the previous cases that we were looking at, say, the the guy who. got the 475 years for for dog fighting. but There was a raid on his property, so they they've they've seen all the evidence, they've noted it, they've catalogued it, and what have you.
00:42:47
Speaker
the The Animal Justice Project, they've been able to document some things, but that it's I wonder whether it's the burden of proof, which... clearly is is a case with the fox hunting case as well. You know, you can collect so much evidence, but there was a lot of people getting away with things because stuff couldn't be proved. There was insufficient evidence.
00:43:07
Speaker
Well, it's often said that animal rights activists are the voice of the voiceless. So which is why we do what we do. Yeah, absolutely. I will just say that. I mean, we could compare these to we're blue in the face, but On the one hand, it's great that these people have had a lifetime ban for the horrific stuff they were doing to to male calves.
00:43:27
Speaker
But equally, there's no jail time. Their fines were absolutely laughable. And i to me, that's no different to dogfighting. You know, like that they're doing it for profit. It's their job.
00:43:41
Speaker
They're being paid to do that. And they're egregiously causing harm. And that they've not had to pay. It's just a three-figure sum. that they're paying and they can just get a job at Morrison's or wherever the, you know, the next day, potentially. was going to say, let's hope nobody wants to give them a job, you know? Yeah, but I don't think that, well, that's not how it works in those communities.
00:44:03
Speaker
No. No, indeed, indeed. Right, interesting stuff there. Thank you, Carlos, and thank you, Kate, for your opinions on those stories. We really value your opinions.
00:44:14
Speaker
Here's to how to get in touch with us. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:44:35
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com Okay, right. We've been going blue in the face comparing these stories. And obviously, there's there's an interest to that and that there is value to be gained from doing so.
00:44:55
Speaker
However, if we're just going blue in the face saying, the law is not how it should be. Look at those inconsistencies. Oh, isn't it maddening? That's not necessarily true. giving us much of a sense of agency or some calls to action. So Kate, Carlos, what would you see our role or what options are there as animal advocates, as compassionate vegans like What can we do to help this? i mean I mean, sharing sharing news of these things is one thing, isn't it?
00:45:27
Speaker
You know, you could see a story like this. You could share it to your social feed or anything like that and and raise awareness. that That's not a pointless act, is it? But is that the only thing that we can do, do you think?
00:45:40
Speaker
I think that one thing we can do is, in whatever way we can, support some of the organisations that are fighting for better laws for animals.
00:45:51
Speaker
Obviously, we want to see an end to the welfarist type of laws that we have. And like Carlos was saying, you know, moving towards personhood.
00:46:03
Speaker
And I'm sure there's, yeah, but but there are there are some great organisations. We could say... the RSPCA, who have done some good work. Don't say the RSPCA.
00:46:16
Speaker
They also do ravished work. But hey, i'm sorry. Do know what? I was thinking about the ah RSPCA because a lot of these animal ag ones, there they mention a victim surcharge. And I think the four stories we covered, I totted it up, there was about £50,000 in victim surcharge.
00:46:35
Speaker
And I looked it up and generally... like victim surcharges, if they don't go to the victim themselves, which, you know, what what use does a cow have for £500? Like they will go to institutions that support the victims. And I thought I bet a load of those victim surcharges have gone to the RSPCA Assured Scheme.
00:46:57
Speaker
I bet they have. i even I did wonder, actually, who the victims they mention are. I thought, who are the victims in these cases? So they are the animals, are they? They're saying the animals are the victims in this case. I mean, I can't see how else you'd do it unless you said, oh, the poor farmer who's, who you know, they've lost 18 sheep because of that worker that was neglecting them.
00:47:19
Speaker
They can't be like that, surely. no. Well, I wondered if it might be the general public who are liable to to get some hideous disease off of dead sheep lying about. or something I don't know. i just thought, oh, who do they mean by victims? Either way, I thought that it's almost certainly not going to a sanctuary.
00:47:37
Speaker
No, no. Which would be my call or or an animal advocacy charity. Yeah. Well, I also think we can obviously lobby for for various rights for animals and ah urgent um lobbying to get welfare linked to subsidies.
00:47:57
Speaker
is a as a first step maybe i don't know whether you think that would be of any use whatsoever but could you say a bit more about that because i'm not quite sure i understand what you know i mean animal agriculture subsidies actually i'm talking myself out of that i think that's rubbish idea so yeah ah you can keep that in if you want to yeah Other people might might think it's a good idea. so Yeah, you never know. who yeah Carlos, do you have any thoughts on what what we can do other than just feeling
Personalized Activism Strategies
00:48:27
Speaker
hopeless?
00:48:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think think we've had this sort of discussion on this podcast a few times in conversations in which I was part and conversations in which I was not part. We talked about, you know, should all vegans be animal rights activists to some extent?
00:48:41
Speaker
And I think we discussed that, yes, but... within their capacity to be animal rights activists. And we all kind of have our skills and time and, and i don't know, resilience or capabilities of doing this or that. For example, I, I would not want to, ah you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a, a, which kind of plays to my strengths as an individual, but I could definitely not be an undercover agent, uh, at an animal farm, for example, I would just break down immediately.
00:49:12
Speaker
Yeah. Whereas other animal rights activists, have that the kind of and mental fortitudes and ability to kind of extent trauma to to do those kinds of investigations. So we all should do like the things we can do within the time we have and within the ah personal characteristics. I'm not a welfarist.
00:49:29
Speaker
So my animal rights activism is geared towards abolishing fox hunting, I guess, abolishing trail hunting. You know, I don't want, I don't want, I don't want foxes to be hunted more humanely. I want, I want foxes to not be hunted and other animals as well. Fox hunting is first, but we'll go after the other hunts later.
00:49:47
Speaker
That's my approach. That's what, coincides with my vegan ethics and with my characteristics as a person and the time I have available. So I don't have, for example, I don't have dependents so I can leave my home on a Saturday morning and come back in the evening, right? Not a lot of people can do that on weekends.
00:50:04
Speaker
So it kind of just falls in with, with my availability and, and, So if you, the listener, wants to get involved with animal rights and and the thing you can do and that aligns with you is a welfarist thing, then by all means, yes, do it.
00:50:19
Speaker
Because it's it's not going to change the world, but it will change the world for the animals that are being mistreated that you might impact with your activism. And if you're a ah solicitor, it might be that you get involved in reviewing legal documents and helping existing animal legal legal rights projects that involve kind of private prosecutions.
00:50:41
Speaker
If you're really good at social media and you've got lots of followers on Instagram, maybe you just kind of talk about animal abuse cases and celebrate victories using a platform, you know, just just do what's there for you to do.
00:50:56
Speaker
Because the amount of people who are professional animal rights activists is really, really small. So it's always going to be like a part-time thing. you you know like something you do your spare time. So don't, you know, just find the thing that kind of rings up kind of rings through for you within your capabilities and availability and within your reach.
00:51:14
Speaker
And if that's welfarist, so be it. was just going to say, i think I'm not a welfarist either, but have heard people argue that, um you know, it just makes...
00:51:26
Speaker
animal agriculture, even more untenable, even more... Because they always fight tooth and nail against light but bigger cages and all the rest of it.
00:51:39
Speaker
And it's because it's expensive. And so, you know, um so there is that argument. And like you say, Carlos, it does... Well, I don't know, does it make it any less horrific for the animals within the system? I don't know. But you've got all the horrible routine practices that are done on farms, which they do it because it makes it cheaper for them. i So, you know, the tail docking and beak trimming and all those nasty things that are done to animals and um so you know i guess there is a place to campaign to to get these things changed but um yeah i was going to say you know i i'm not somebody that could go undercover either but you know we can share stories we can encourage people to watch the film footage we can um
00:52:36
Speaker
you know, and and we can kind of, we're in in a place to support financially some of the organisations that are doing it, like the Animal Justice Project, then um and some of the the firms that are taking cases two to trial.
00:52:54
Speaker
and So like the Advocates for Animals, they're a law firm for animal charities. I don't know if people have heard of them. Wild Justice, Animal Equality UK, who work in partnership with Advocates for Animals,
00:53:10
Speaker
Compassion in Wealth Farming. they They helped for a push against the UK-wide ban on live exports, which we can all agree is a horrible thing.
00:53:20
Speaker
The Good Law Project, and they sometimes collaborate with groups on environmental and animal related projects. Scrap Factory Farming, they're a brilliant organisation as well, campaigning organisation.
00:53:34
Speaker
So, you know, I'm sure there's lots of other organisations as well, but, you know, in whatever way we can try support them, follow them, share their their information with people i think that's also a good thing to do yeah I think just listening to what you've both been saying as as well like brilliant points I think where we can see there's a crack or a chink of light like then then we should go for that you know so if there's a if there's a way that you can give your opinion on a consultation on a new law or something like that definitely go for it tooth and nail absolutely absolutely
00:54:10
Speaker
where there doesn't seem to be those opportunities, just generally changing the norm in terms of your conversations, the things that you share online and things like that. Like laws generally are made and and judgments in court are generally made along the same lines as the general population is feeling and thinking.
00:54:34
Speaker
And you quite rightly, Carlos, sarcastically said, oh, we're a nation of animal lovers. Well, that is what people like to think. Of course, there's inconsistencies, but that's generally the opinion of people. And I think a lot of judgments in a court will be carried out but in in ah in a way that supports...
00:54:58
Speaker
that opinion too. And so kind of what people see as acceptable and, oh my goodness, that's terrible. Like that's informed just by casual conversations and they snowball and they, they reach millions of people, of,
00:55:15
Speaker
eventually. So I think where we can't see a direct, oh, I really want to get my teeth stuck into changing the law or whatever, when we can't see opportunities for that, just our general conversations, I think, and can have an impact too. So we definitely have agency.
Animal Sentience and Future Reforms
00:55:30
Speaker
I just want to say that we've got sentience laws in the 2022, Animal Sentience Act, the animal sentience recognizes animals as sentient but it doesn't confer any rights at all as we know so it's almost worse isn't it i know it's something we can build on perhaps it's kind of there okay yeah so they're thinking and they feel yeah okay but we're still going to carry on abusing them
00:56:02
Speaker
But, you know, it's a step in the right direction. It's kind of, you know, because they just wouldn't go there at all before. Most people would not, would they? So ah don't know. i thought I'm sure there's things that can be built upon. Definitely.
00:56:16
Speaker
these These future generations living in a vegan world, I'd better be grateful for all this, you know, ah ridiculousness we're having to live through where there's sentience laws, but billions of animals are still being killed every year. it's maddening at times. It's maddening.
Upcoming Topics and Listener Engagement
00:56:31
Speaker
Anyway, thank you for that, Kate. And thank you for that, Carlos. Speaking of being grateful and thankful, as well as leaving a comment in Spotify or Apple podcasts on this episode, there's a little something we'd like to ask from you if you haven't done it already.
00:56:47
Speaker
If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too. We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising, so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free Enough of the Falafel Joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player.
00:57:12
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
00:57:23
Speaker
Thank you, everyone, for listening. don't know about you, but my brain aches right now. and Anyway, so there's another Enough of the Falafel episode coming out, Vegan Talk, and that's available from Thursday, the 17th of July. And that's going to be with Anthony, Julie and Richard.
00:57:44
Speaker
And it's on, the topic is, should vegans routinely donate a portion of their income to charity? Which charity, I wonder. yeah Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode.
00:57:57
Speaker
Thank you, Anthony. Thank you, Kate, for your contributions. Thank again, everyone for listening. And I've been Carlos. You've been listening to Vegan Week from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:58:12
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:58:27
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:58:53
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:59:14
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:59:29
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.