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181- Fish feel pain...so let's...kill them quicker?!?!?!
0 Playsin 18 hours
...or how about DON'T KILL THEM AT ALL?!?!?!?! In a complete own-goal of a headline, a study released this week suggests that "humane slaughter" is the best solution to the findings showing just how much suffering is endured by suffocating fish. Where do we start?!?!
This week Kate & Ant look at this story, as well as eight other snippets from the last 7 days that have ramifications for animals and/or vegans in general.
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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This week's stories:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2025/jun/09/owl-sightings-increase-london-not-just-leafy-suburbs-aoe
https://plantbasednews.org/culture/film/new-horror-film-exposes-fishing-industry/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc73OVK_AuE (quite graphic)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn4qp7nll22o#:~:text=A%20%C2%A3120m%20onshore%20salmon,basis%20of%20animal%20welfare%20concerns.
https://plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/health/more-artificial-ingredients-bread-vegan-meat/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w81NRCt6Z2I
https://www.farminguk.com/news/new-tactics-unveiled-to-tackle-cabbage-stem-flea-beetle-crisis-in-osr_66714.html
https://www.earth.com/news/fish-like-rainbow-trout-suffer-extreme-pain-when-killed-by-air/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/vegetarian-power-meat-new-study-b2766387.html
https://pressat.co.uk/releases/animal-activist-groups-use-bully-tactics-once-again-111463870fd4992641ae5d00a5504732/
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Kate & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction & Vegan Stereotypes
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to your one-stop shop for vegan and animal rights news. I'm Anthony, joining me for this episode is the brilliant Kate, but that is enough of the falafel, it is time for vegan week. So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble.
00:00:18
Speaker
That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Protein! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? they They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:34
Speaker
Hang on a minute, you always pick
00:00:41
Speaker
of social injustice has connection with another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you donna get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:57
Speaker
No, I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. and Oh, hello there lovely listeners. It's Kate here. Thank you for that brilliant Anthony. I'm feeling all shiny and new now. Thank you very As you should, as you should.
00:01:12
Speaker
Anyway, so this is our news show where we look through last week's vegan and animal rights news. But that's enough of the falafel.
00:01:23
Speaker
Let's hear what's been going on this week.
00:01:28
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode available on your podcast player.
00:01:41
Speaker
Okay, let's start off this week's wrap of the news with a nice positive story.
Urban Wildlife & Eco-Conscious Housing
00:01:46
Speaker
You know, if if you're somebody who keeps their ear to the ground with the sort of global political news at the moment, you might be feeling quite down. You might be feeling quite beaten up by things. So let's buts start with a nice light positive story. This comes to us from The Guardian and they are saying, there's a great pun. If you like puns, this is the headline for you.
00:02:05
Speaker
What a hoot! Owl sightings increase in London and not just in the leafy suburbs. So like what a brilliant story that sounds like too, doesn't it? And actually, there's not really a twist, I would say. So this is, in a sense, it's kind of a think piece, but is it is based on data.
00:02:24
Speaker
um So owl sightings have risen. In 2010, there were just 25 barn owl sightings in London. That's blimmin' awful, isn't it? But 347 have been spotted ah decade or so later. Tawny owls also have increased, so 159 2010, up that was
00:02:51
Speaker
the last time the data was collected so that was 2020. Kate, we don't need to dwell on this for too long. We can just tick this off as a as fantastic piece of news that actually, whilst there is a lot of nature that is decreasing in numbers, it does seem possible to reverse these things as evidenced by these owls.
00:03:09
Speaker
Yeah, it's really interesting. I wonder where they're nesting. Somebody did tell me that London is classed as a forest because of all the trees, which is quite something, isn't it? And I wonder what they're eating. Is it mice or are they eating all the rats or the pigeons or whatever?
00:03:27
Speaker
But yeah, really it's really nice that barn owls and the other sorts of owls are, you know, able to live in the city. That's great, isn't it? Absolutely. And obviously, I mean, if you were to look at a graph over the last 200 years, this is an upturn, but it's still relatively down compared with 50 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago.
00:03:50
Speaker
But in terms of those of us and and the wider population that would like to see these things on the upturn, it's encouraging to see things that can be turned around. It's not just like a ah pit of despair and we can't do anything to change these things.
00:04:04
Speaker
Interestingly, Alex and I are in the process of buying a house and it is a new build. And they were, ah we didn't ask about this, but they they showed us, I suppose, a bit of greenwashing when we were looking at the different plots. They were showing us all the different things that now come as standard with new builds and they you know various bird boxes and bat boxes and things like this that just get installed onto new houses as standard amongst other things, which is is a nice little something, isn't it?
00:04:32
Speaker
Nice little something. Yeah, that's really lovely. And oh so like actually I actually, think that sounds like quite... a dense population of owls. I'm just wondering how that compares in parts of the countryside where sometimes they get poisoned and shot, don't they?
00:04:50
Speaker
So um when they're not meant to be, they're not supposed to be, but I think it goes, I do think it goes on. So, so nice that your house comes with all those wildlife friendly attributes.
00:05:02
Speaker
I think that's great. Isn't it? Isn't it good? Isn't it good? Nice story to start things off.
Vegan Meats: Processed or Healthier?
00:05:08
Speaker
Now, this next story is not necessarily ah a sort of happy clappy, isn't everything wonderful story, but it is a nice bit of pushback because those of you, again, who keep your ear to the ground might have been hearing a lot of stories saying that, oh, vegan food is ultra processed. It's no good for you, blam blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:05:26
Speaker
Well, Plant Based News have published a story this week regarding a bit of research that has been publicized in Food Navigator. And they are saying that vegan meat is potentially being unfairly criticized for being an ultra processed food.
00:05:42
Speaker
And some alternative proteins contain fewer artificial ingredients than white bread. according to the researchers. Now, Kate, we've asked you to look at this. what White bread is not necessarily the gold standard of healthy whole foods, but it is an interesting comparison to make and relatively speaking, positive PR for plant-based foods, I guess.
00:06:06
Speaker
Yeah, I think it's great because I've now got a something else to say to people when they they tell me that vegan meat is too ultra processed, I'm not going to eat it. and i've And I think to myself, well, at least it's not ultra processed through the the body of an animal.
00:06:22
Speaker
So, yeah, I think it's again, it's been the animal ag industry jumping on this ultra processed terminology and actually it's not as simple as it's not so simple it's not black and white there's so many kind of gray areas with it and some so-called ultra-processed foods are not really unhealthy and others yeah they are they're made of like white flour white sugar loads of oil and all the rest of it and all the various different emulsifiers and other artificial ingredients that
00:07:00
Speaker
you wouldn't find in your kitchen, as they like to say. And we already know from studies that lot of vegan meats are, in fact, much healthier than meat when compared. So, you know, they're not driving the heart disease and cancer and all the rest of it, are like ultra-processed meat and potentially red meat, as well as the other animal products. So it's good, I think. Yeah, if I mean, last week's news show, we and Paul featured a story that was looking at the impact of a low-fat plant-based diet that included soy on hot flashes, or hot flushes, as we say, in the UK for the menopause. And what was interesting in that study, but also other studies that have come out recently, is that they basically said, actually, even processed plant-based food it that is not that bad in certain
00:07:57
Speaker
markers now obviously it depends how you're judging these things and um number one we're not a health giving um ah advice giving podcast and also we're you know we're we're definitely not going to say that processed food is as good for you as whole foods but it was interesting that the the data in that study that we happen to focus on last week basically said there was a negligible difference so long as it was a plant-based processed food so all interesting stuff all interesting stuff well we're jumping around today with our stories we started off talking about owls in london then we've been comparing
00:08:34
Speaker
ultra processed or not plant-based foods comparing it to white bread now we're going to tell you about a horror film we just really can't decide what the flavor of the show is going to be this has got a lot of spotlight on it this week it is called what a catch it is very short and it is very gory if we will put a link in the show notes but it definitely comes with a gory warning it's now available to watch online which is why there's been some noise about it This week, as is often the case when films come out, they will do the rounds of film festivals
Animal Rights Films & Industry Exposés
00:09:08
Speaker
and things like that. You can see it in the cinema, blah, blah.
00:09:10
Speaker
And then often, if you're lucky, it becomes available online. The film was created by Tom Pickering, who was the writer and director of the documentary, I Could Never Go Vegan, which you might have heard of.
00:09:25
Speaker
This one is much shorter. It's only five minutes long. And I can summarize the plot now. Basically, there's a fisherman who tries to catch a fish. They catch a fish. They throw it in their basket, their box, I think it is.
00:09:38
Speaker
um And then mysteriously, another hook comes out of the water and gouges the side of his face off and he manages to get that off him and he's sort of staggering about whimpering as there is lots of blood coming out of his face and then another one gets him in the back and drags him under and he drowns and that is the film um so it's uh nothing if not blunt okay i know it's a bit of a um a tired old trope to say things like oh I had the idea for Netflix before it came out I had the idea for Deliveroo but I genuinely like about 10 years ago remember saying to a few people wouldn't it be good to do like a short little film where like someone's fishing but they get dragged under by ah by a load of fish and lo and behold Tom Pickering has done it so I shan't obviously claim any credit because he's gone out and done was you actually talking to Tom Pickering at the time Well, maybe.
00:10:34
Speaker
i mean, all credit to him. If I ever if i was, um I'm sure he is intelligent and creative enough to come up with ah such an idea himself. But good good to get the point out there. Although, um like I say, it won't be for everyone because it's ah it's a bit gory. age do Are you tempted to give it a watch? I will watch it, but I'll be hiding behind a cushion.
00:10:54
Speaker
So I'm not um not great with gory horror films, actually, but I can't. I think I'm on the side of the, the fishes on this one. I hate to say it. Yeah.
00:11:05
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But, um, great that it's out there and apparently it's, it's got loads of plaudits. It's, you know, like a lot of these things, it's not just been shown to vegan audiences. Um, so it's, uh, making waves. ha ha ha ha Um, so yeah, well done him and everyone behind it.
00:11:25
Speaker
But, um,
00:11:29
Speaker
o Yeah, definitely not one to show your your granny unless she is really into gory stuff, though, I would say. However, this is not the only film news this week coming across my Facebook feed and doubtless many other people's too, was the news that Team Joey Carbstrong have released what they are calling a world first episode.
00:11:53
Speaker
expose a huge egg hen gas chamber slaughterhouse this was filmed in august and seven september of last year 2024 they're saying it's a world first investigation they captured what they're saying is the first ever footage from inside co2 gas chamber pit system used to kill end of lay egg hens kate He's done his job because I didn't know that this was a thing that happened.
00:12:21
Speaker
So he's educated me and doubtless many others. As ever, the kind of rhetoric he's putting out is quick, watch it, share it, like it, comment on it before it gets banned.
00:12:34
Speaker
What do you think? Is that just clever marketing or is ah is there a chance this could get shelved? Well, maybe. He says he's concerned about getting it shut down, which maybe is a thing.
00:12:48
Speaker
But it's our friend's Cranswick again, isn't it? And it's a Cranswick factory where they got into a processing plant where they where they got in and filmed the pigs in the gas chambers.
00:13:02
Speaker
It's quite horrific. watching the the film. I think they're amazing. They're very brave to have got in there. Yeah, it's a heartbreaking watch.
00:13:13
Speaker
People don't, they don't really, ah i was the same, never, when I was eating meat and chicken, never really thought about the chickens but actually this is egg for egg production and there must be this this is one to show your vegan your vegetarian friends are I ah think because I mean I was I've been I was vegetarian on and off a few times and thinking I was doing the right thing and that vegans are extreme and because nobody has to die for an egg.
00:13:46
Speaker
But actually, yeah, it's it's quite horrific. And, you know, after many hens have a hellish life, they end up here. Well, half off of the laying hens of Britain.
00:14:00
Speaker
I think that's incredible, don't you? and um I did have a look. don't know if you had a look at any numbers, but according to what I found out... Over 80,000 birds from the egg industry are killed daily.
00:14:17
Speaker
And that doesn't count. That doesn't count the male chicks, which is over 100,000 every day in the UK. So I guess that means that that slaughterhouse must kill around 40,000 birds daily.
00:14:36
Speaker
I can't hardly believe that. I can't hardly believe that's true. Maybe somebody will write in and say, no, it's not true. It's X amount or something. But whatever. but maybe that's why they're using that technique, because it is is um obviously horrific, but it's it's probably efficient, which is a horrible word to use. Yeah, no, I can believe those numbers, to be honest.
00:14:59
Speaker
yeah. yeah Yeah, horrid stuff that though, and and fantastic that they they're raising the fact that this is being done. And like you say, Kate, folk will imagine as as I did when I too was vegetarian and sort of thought I was against killing, that this is actually part of the egg industry. Not just the egg industry though, the RSPCA-assured egg industry, the Red Tractor-approved egg industry.
00:15:25
Speaker
So it's ah knocking lots of myths on the head so long as it gets shared. So obviously we would encourage anyone who feels inclined to do so to to share this, to get it out there. Just going to say that and I haven't shared it on my social media yet because even though he said do it quickly, but I'm just like...
00:15:49
Speaker
i I don't know, so aware that all the vegan people I know will go, yes, that's terrible, that's terrible. And the non-vegan people I know will scroll through and probably won't even look.
00:16:02
Speaker
I mean, how how do you think, what's the best way of sharing Well, I mean, i think that there's no doubt that the best way to to get coverage for something is to like it to comment on it to share it to send it to people blah blah blah blah blah but i completely understand why you would choose not i mean not you know i've not put it on my feed but the way i look at it is the number of things when i do have a mindless social media scroll which is uh not as often as I used to, but it does still happen.
00:16:35
Speaker
Like the stuff that I will come across will generally be the things that have been commented on or have got a lot of views and stuff like that. So I am obviously not an expert on these things, but I think you're still affecting the algorithm by liking it. If you can put your name to a comment beneath it, you know, and and and things like that, that's still gonna get it out there to people because at the end of the day,
00:17:01
Speaker
these these companies i mean this is on youtube but they've also done facebook and and other social platforms um posting they want the videos and the content to get out that people are interested in watching so if there's something that's been watched and commented on by hundreds of thousands of people they'll they'll show it to anyone you don't need to be vegan you don't need to have watched animal rights content before so i think any interaction you feel you can give will help Yeah, well, I've certainly commented it or commented on YouTube. It's got 5.4 thousand likes at the moment.
00:17:37
Speaker
so Yeah, and it only went up four days
Salmon Farming Controversies
00:17:40
Speaker
ago. 37 and a half thousand views. So that's pretty good, I think. Indeed. Yeah, but good on the team that has brought that to the world. Hopefully it will make it a thing.
00:17:55
Speaker
of the past. Unfortunately, something that is looking like it will be a thing of the future, however, is a salmon farm, a major onshore salmon farm being built in Cleethorpes after a judicial review upheld the council's decision. you might be thinking, hang on, I thought you'd reported on this before. We did report on the fact that animal welfare concerns had been raised by Animal Equality UK. So the the judicial review was held in February of this year.
00:18:32
Speaker
However, Deputy High Court Judge Karen Ridge upheld the council's decision to allow the salmon farm, but ruled that animal welfare concerns could be a key planning consideration in future cases. So it's not all doom and g gloom, but unfortunately it does seem to be that in Cleethorpes, which is on the east coast of England, there's going to be a lot of doom and gloom coming up.
00:19:01
Speaker
It's going cost £120 million. pounds It's going to create 300 jobs, 100 of which would be permanent. Oh, hooray. Well, that that's fine. I'm sure that's okay then. Obviously,
00:19:14
Speaker
Not great news. Animal Equality UK's Executive Director, Abigail Penny, said the group had worked on stopping the fish farms development for two years and says, we have absolutely no intention of backing down now.
00:19:28
Speaker
there is This is nothing but a corporate land grab and we won't stand for it. We will fight until the bitter end. Obviously, really sad news, Kate, for for this one. Great to hear that people are going to dig their heels in and and keep fighting this and it's further evidence that actually more than 50% now of the fish that is sold in supermarkets in fishmongers or what have you comes from fish farms they're not just swimming happily in the sea living out their life like Nemo and a few of them get caught these are deliberately systematically oppressed beings um who as we will hear later definitely feel pain too
00:20:11
Speaker
swimming in their own shit and god knows what. It's pretty horrendous. I mean, good for the animal equality people. They are heroes. It must have been so very disappointing. But yeah, good luck to them fighting this.
00:20:28
Speaker
Let's hope they win and sense prevails. But hey, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Right. Our last little story before we move on to mine and Kate's pick of the week. In over a year and a half, a year and three quarters of doing this podcast, I have not found new story like this before.
Organic Pest Management Strategies
00:20:47
Speaker
I'm really interested to know what Kate and of course what you out there listening think about this. It comes from Farming UK and the headline reads,
00:20:56
Speaker
New tactics unveiled to tackle cabbage stem flea beetle crisis. Now, I was thinking to myself, no, this is going to be an interesting vegan story because this is a plant-based food, cabbage, that is clearly being blighted by this cabbage stem flea beetle. And I bet there's loads of horrible non-vegan ways that these beetles are being, quote, managed or controlled.
00:21:21
Speaker
But interestingly, I'd be interested interested to hear your take, Kate. But as you read through the article... a lot of the strategies that are being suggested by these management management strategies, they're actually, I think, pretty friendly, or they're certainly not necessarily advocating the wholesale extermination of them all.
00:21:41
Speaker
I should say, just for clarification, that the plant that gets blighted by these animals is oilseed rape. So the the kind of headline talking about cabbage stem flea beetle. You'd assume it's on cabbage.
00:21:53
Speaker
No, no, no. It's on oil seed rape. But the top 10 strategies, avoid sticking to traditional sowing dates. So opt for early or late sowing to sidestep the peak migration window.
00:22:05
Speaker
Chase perfection at establishment. So wait for adequate soil moisture before sowing. I hope you're all taking notes at home, by the way. Keep your distance. So increase spatial or temporal separation from previous or oilseed rape crops, improve larval tolerance, so target fewer, larger plants that are more resilient to lower feeding.
00:22:23
Speaker
And it goes on. They're talking about making use of organic material, planting companion crops such as oats, buckwheat, and bursim clover, or intercrops like faba beans.
00:22:34
Speaker
I counted two, Kate, where it was basically saying spray loads of stuff on them, but do it in this way. But of the 10, I was really pleasantly surprised that actually it wasn't just saying kill the Beatles. hill didn't seem to be saying that. Yeah. um Am I being really naive? Like, did you read it in a different way?
00:22:54
Speaker
No, I was slightly intrigued at this. um And then I sort of thought, yeah, actually, this is very interesting because... Yeah, you're right. Some of those strategies are things that have been developed by the organic movement, you know, i.e. the companion planting and all that, and probably things that a lot of farmers have been, oh God, all that that mumbo jumbo and they're actually going to have to start you know doing it themselves which is interesting but the reason they're in such a bloody mess is because um in the past they sprayed ah oil seed rape with neonicotinoids you know those really nasty chemicals that
00:23:35
Speaker
confuse and kill insects including bees and stuff and they've been banned except that I think there's one they're allowed now the British government have allowed one in exceptional circumstances which means goodness knows what, you know, if we if it's anything to go by the water companies, every time it rains, it's exceptional circumstances, isn't it?
00:23:58
Speaker
So, yeah, but yeah, bravo for coming up with some of these ideas other than destroying the whole of biodiversity. um You know, I didn't like the one spraying with muck. I think that's just another excuse to get rid of the mounds animal shit they've got.
00:24:17
Speaker
Yeah. You know, but honestly, farmers have created this problem by killing all the beetles' predators and not providing any habitat for them. So what do they expect when they grow like massive fields with just one crop?
00:24:33
Speaker
You we're the most wildlife depleted country in Europe, I Yes. Yeah. um yeah But, you know, also there's because i am on the whole, whole food vegan, and I just think, why are we growing all this bloody stuff? Do know what mean? So much of it goes to into the ultra processed foods. It goes.
00:24:58
Speaker
you know, into margarine, which I personally don't eat. So, yaboo, no one else is allowed to have it. And, ah and so you know, and kind of all the fast foods, you know, things are fried and stuff.
00:25:13
Speaker
And not only that, the extra, the stuff which is leftover, which apparently is protein dense, goes to feed the farmed animals. So, you know, um yeah, I, I just think, well, I'll be growing so much of it even.
00:25:28
Speaker
Yeah, i i do I do take your point. I think what my positive takeaway from this is the fact that you've got a crop here, that there are a small insects that are blighting it.
00:25:41
Speaker
And most on a completely non-vegan website, news site, a lot of the, well, almost all of the suggestions were ones that were actually, as far as I could tell,
00:25:53
Speaker
pretty vegan friendly i mean like one of them they they were saying build brassica buddies so so basically plant some more bits so that the the insects will go and eat them and and and they're they're just sacrificial so you just you're basically planting food for these insects i was like that's really kind and friendly like what a vision of the future like we say Well, we're planting these things for us, but we know going to want to eat them. So we've planted some extra bits for you. i just thought, oh, do you know what?
00:26:22
Speaker
There is hope. Maybe ah I'd read the barn owl story and was just thinking that even farming UK is, you know, turning over a new leaf. Pardon the pun. I guess, I guess, I mean, somebody has said to them, look, if you, if you, if you allow um some food for these creatures, you're then going to get the predators coming in and then they'll start controlling it, you know, like, so, you know, maybe finally at last some, they've, they've actually understood, you some of these other methods of of controlling pests rather than just spraying everything to death, you know.
00:26:58
Speaker
So anyway, yeah, yeah it' ah it's a good story. like Yeah, it is a good story. I just have have moment. Well, I'm glad you agree. We can move on now. Now you've agreed with me. We are going to take the shortest of short breaks and then we're going to come back with mine and Kate's picks of the week.
Fish Pain Studies & Ethical Implications
00:27:17
Speaker
And both of us are getting scientific. We have got studies that provides two very different findings.
00:27:30
Speaker
ah Okay, Kate, do you want to go first? I've alluded to what your pick for the week is earlier when we were talking about salmon farm that has been approved because you are going to be talking about fish.
00:27:43
Speaker
And it's not nice what we're going to talk about, but it's an important bit of information for when we are advocating on behalf of our fishy friends. Yeah, i I kind of chose this because so many people don't think of fish as animals, really.
00:28:02
Speaker
they It's really hard to read their... Well, you can't read their facial expressions. And when they're out of water, they don't make any noise. So i think it's it's hard it's hard to for for a lot of people, including me years ago,
00:28:18
Speaker
to um you know, empathise with them. so So this is from earth.com. Scientists prove fish suffer intense pain for at least 10 minutes after catch calls made for reforms.
00:28:34
Speaker
And I'm going to read some of this because I just think the nuances of of how it's, rather than kind of doing a PC, is just so telling and interesting. So it's also, it's about farmed, they've they've sort of done the study on farm trout, but it's and applicable to other species of fish, so they say. So each year, more than two trillion wild and farm fish are killed to feed humanity.
00:29:01
Speaker
Their deaths often go unnoticed. Yet beneath the surface is a simple biological fact fish can suffer. Rainbow trout, a species farmed and consumed across the globe, experience not just death, but a prolonged and intense form of distress when they are killed by asphyxiation.
00:29:22
Speaker
A new study in the journal Scientific Reports shines a light on this pain and offers a pathway to reduce it. So the welfare footprint framework has been developed to measure suffering.
00:29:36
Speaker
It measures pain in minutes and has a pla been applied to trout slaughter. Fish, when pulled from water, begin to ah slow and stressful decline.
00:29:48
Speaker
Their gills collapse. They gasp in panic. Their blood chemistry spirals. oxygen disappears while carbon dioxide builds. These biological reactions unfold as the fish continues to move, gasp and suffer sometimes for as long as 25 minutes.
00:30:06
Speaker
So they used EEG signals and reflex loss to identify unconsciousness. And they reviewed how fish respond to CO2, pH imbalance, muscle exhaustion and fear inducing stimuli.
00:30:23
Speaker
Each pain level had specific criteria ranging from annoyance to total disruption of basic functions. Chilling in ice can be even worse as it can delay loss of consciousness even further.
00:30:38
Speaker
Suffering often starts well before with crowding, transport and handling that causes physical injury and hours of distress. Yet regulations usually overlook them.
00:30:51
Speaker
Electrical stunning could spare 60 to 1,200 minutes of suffering for every dollar spent. This makes it one of the most cost effective welfare interventions known.
00:31:04
Speaker
Percussive stunning, a physical blow to the head has shown better consistency in lab settings, but it's difficult to scale. The Welfare Footprint Framework provides a rigorous and transparent evidence-based approach to measuring animal welfare and enables informed decisions about where to allocate allocate resources for the greatest impact, noted Dr. Vladimir Alonso from the Welfare Footprint Institute.
00:31:34
Speaker
Just like life years lost to disease, we can now talk about minutes of suffering saved. Governments can use this to guide humane slaughter laws.
00:31:46
Speaker
For consumers, it gives a new way to think about what ends up on their plate. I think they mean who ends up on their plate. And perhaps most importantly, the framework acknowledges what fish have felt all along, suffering that deserves to be seen and reduced.
00:32:06
Speaker
Well, Anthony. It's interesting, isn't it? It's interesting because like it on the one hand, it's really compelling. And on the other hand, the conclusions are obviously carnist still.
00:32:17
Speaker
and And that they're saying, just look at all this suffering. Look, these these animals, they can feel things. Look at all this that they're going through. so we need to come up with a different way of killing them.
00:32:30
Speaker
You're just like, what? What do you mean? What do you mean? How is that your conclusion? We we can have a welfarist versus abolitionist debate till we're blue in the face and and getting asphyxiated ourselves.
00:32:43
Speaker
I think the fact is that the world's not going to go vegan overnight. And so, you know, ah if I have to choose between fish having horrendous suffering for up to 25 minutes or suffering for a matter of seconds then obviously i'll choose the latter but it's it's disappointing that when all of that work has been put in all of that data you know that they've put in a lot of time and money to investigate this that the that the conclusion is oh yeah we need but but basically the word humane slaughter is used several times in this piece isn't it
00:33:21
Speaker
which is is not what we want. Do you think it's possible for there to be research like this done and you kind of pull out animal rights headlines and animal rights conclusions from it? Like obviously earth.com haven't done that.
00:33:36
Speaker
And the authors of the piece haven't done that. But do you think it's possible for animal advocates like ourselves to kind of take this study and and come up with headlines that say, look at what's going on.
00:33:48
Speaker
That's a reason not to end up with these animals on your plate. Yes, it's funny because I'm conflicted because, yes, I can say, look, look, see, fish feel pain and they're really suffering and um it's horrible.
00:34:04
Speaker
You know, you you see a fisherman pull a fish out and it's floundering about and people just think, oh, look at that fish. It's, you know, it's dancing about because it's not in the water. um But actually now we know they they really are suffering and it gets progressively worse and they're in, you know, excruciating pain was was the words used in places as well.
00:34:27
Speaker
Yeah, I think perhaps we can use it as evidence that actually, we shouldn't be eating fish at all. Because when we think about, I mean, fish, fish are not even measured as individuals, are they? They're measured in tons, you know, which is pretty horrific. And that, and also, yeah so i keep meaning to say fishers and not fish as well, because that emphasises the fact that they are individuals. They're not just this mass of this a mass of flesh that we eat.
00:35:01
Speaker
I mean, my mind is going towards the the expose that Joey Carbstrong's team have released this week about ways of basically mass killing egg laying hens when they come to the end of their days.
00:35:13
Speaker
That is a quote, efficient solution to to to killing a large number of sentient beings. relatively quickly and of course they're enduring pain but I'm sure the proponents of CO2 as a means of killing animals would say well yes it may well be painful but it's actually quite short relatively speaking they're in horrible suffering for two minutes and actually is that not what this article is saying We need to bring this suffering time for fish down from 25 minutes to two minutes because there's no way of farming these animals on an industrial scale. 2.2 trillion a year, isn't it, for fish? That's what it said.
00:35:56
Speaker
More than 2 trillion wild and farm fish are killed to to feed people each year. There's no way of doing that in a, quote, humane way. other than just horrific, horrific ways.
00:36:08
Speaker
So, yeah, i but I do think we can hijack it. I do think we can hijack this research and so put out headlines that say, look, we shouldn't be doing this at all. Yeah, because who are we to decide whether two minutes or 25 minutes?
00:36:22
Speaker
you know, to a fish, you know, ah when when when we're in pain, you know, severe pain, yeah that that's so, it just encompasses, you know, you are just, that is, you are pain and it's, you just can't think outside of that. And I was just thinking, do you remember, i don't know if you know, but newborn babies, they used to think that they didn't feel any pain and sometimes they were operated upon without any anaesthesia.
00:36:50
Speaker
until they summar some some smart person decided, oh, yeah, perhaps they do feel pain and decided that it was best to kind of put them under, first of all. and Yeah. You know, um and I do wonder, these researchers eating fish themselves, you know?
00:37:07
Speaker
ah I'm sure. You think? Yeah. But I just, um so I wonder, you know, what they say when they go home and their other half says, oh, what have you been doing today then, dear?
00:37:19
Speaker
Well, I've been putting some fish through some excruciating pain experiments to see how they react, you know. Yeah, with a stopwatch. Yes. What bizarre, they must have actually been having to do that. Well, they have, haven't they, as part of the the research. I mean, wow. And it's that it's the mental gymnastics that we do in order to preserve the status quo.
00:37:43
Speaker
You know, but because really, really, the the the logical solution to this is there is a sentient being that is suffering there. We can see that it's suffering. It's suffering in a similar way to us.
00:37:54
Speaker
And the thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere is they're having this suffering and then they're dead. Then their life ends. If I say to you now, Kate, would you rather...
00:38:05
Speaker
that I gave you two minutes of extreme pain before killing you or 25 minutes of extreme pain before killing you your first question wouldn't be oh well tell me more about the two minute option you'd be going hang on what why why am I being killed anyway why do you need to kill me you know and that that's not addressed anywhere obviously we're uh because you have we are converts You have to kill them because we need to eat them, Anthony. Well, that's the assumption, isn't it?
00:38:34
Speaker
That's the assumption. But that's the mental gymnastics. That's what's fueling that all the funding and the time. and that and I mean, it it must be horrible for the people who are doing these experiments to to watch this, and unless they're actual psychopaths, which I don't believe necessarily. So it's it's horrible that people are are having to do these tests and and watch this happen. Just just just don't eat them.
00:38:59
Speaker
Yeah, don't eat them. I had a quick look at the Welfare Footprint Institute and they are also, and but i think they've done research into how pigs are kept, probably pig slaughter, egg-laying hens, um ah various all various other animals as well. So they don't don't just talk about, they don't just research into fish, they research into animals.
00:39:25
Speaker
Other farmed creatures as well, I'm afraid to say. I'm on their website now. It looks interesting. Definitely looks like there's scope for a vegan talk episode there.
00:39:36
Speaker
Goodness me. Well, thank you for picking that one out, Kate. My pick for the week comes to us from the independent newspaper, though it is, again, it's just reporting on a study, so it wasn't conducted by the independent.
Vegetarian vs. Meat-Eater Values
00:39:51
Speaker
It's a study that was conducted using the opinions and responses of more than three and a half thousand adults in Poland and the United States.
00:40:02
Speaker
800 of them were vegetarians, so we do you need to acknowledge that it's vegetarian, not vegan. And according to the authors and according to the people who've now kind of taken a synopsis of this and and written a piece in the independent newspaper. They're saying that the vegetarians were most likely to align themselves with values that improved their social status.
00:40:24
Speaker
Those included higher levels of personal ambition and a keener appetite for novelty and challenge in life. Meanwhile, meat eaters were found to align themselves closer to values of tradition, such as respecting established norms and conformity,
00:40:42
Speaker
meaning a desire not to upset others and to comply with socially accepted conventions. They also placed more emphasis on benevolence, such as kindness towards friends and family and security.
00:40:54
Speaker
Those kind, kind, benevolent people paying other people to kill animals. So I looked a bit into the the methodology, not massively deeply, I will say. So anyone who wants to do a deep, deep dive and get back to us, I would be very appreciative of that Basically, they were given brief sketches of fictional individuals accompanied by descriptions, such as, being very successful is important to him.
00:41:22
Speaker
He likes to impress other people. And then the participants were asked to rank how much they related to the character from a scale of one to six. And there was a series of these. So that's the methodology.
00:41:34
Speaker
But really interesting that the the kind of headline, I mean, it's really feeding into the click bait culture that we are unfortunately part of. and And as part of this podcast, we're trying to rally against and give a bit more detail.
00:41:49
Speaker
But yeah, we're What do you think of that, Kate? The the headline being vegetarians are more power hungry than meat eaters and meat eaters are actually, there's more emphasis in their lives on benevolence, kindness towards friends and family.
00:42:04
Speaker
Can you see anything in there? they like to think, yeah. ah I like your thoughts on the fact that, yeah, that they're allowing other people to do the the dirty work. They're not even, most, a lot of meat eaters are,
00:42:19
Speaker
are not even engaging with it they don't want to see they don't want to look yeah i guess i can understand that sort of and they are more aligned with tradition don't want to step out of place vegetarians i guess that does include vegans ah don i don't some of us are quite ambitious we want to change the world that's pretty ambitious this isn't it do you what i mean we we've Yeah, I was quite disappointed with this study in that I really think this line of science, we stand to gain a lot as ah as a movement and and not not just the animal rights movement. I think any any kind of social justice or trying to make the world better, understanding human psychology, group psychology and things like that.
00:43:04
Speaker
I think there's massive gains to be made if it's done properly there. But a really spurious methodology, just kind of saying, oh, do you identify with this person on scale of one to six?
00:43:15
Speaker
And then there's loads of things that the authors have said that I kind of think, oh, yeah, no, that does make sense. But it's just the authors kind of supposing these things. It's not necessarily what the studies found. So they're saying, well, actually, if you're following a vegetarian diet, you do need to be an independent thinker.
00:43:33
Speaker
You do need to, quote, march to the beat of a different drum, considering that you're basically a minority and you have to face rejection and criticism. So you've got to be strong. So I get all of that.
00:43:43
Speaker
But it it sounds like the researchers kind of had those ideas before they'd done the study. Anyway, so I'm not really sure what the point of the study was really. And that the whole thing of benevolence, I'm just kind like, come on, you you can't you can't use that word to wholesale describe a group of people that are paying for animals' lives to be ended.
00:44:05
Speaker
Fair enough, like not wanting to rock the boat. Fair enough, you might value tradition more. You might value family more. You know, maybe. Maybe there is a correlation. But to use the word benevolence, I thought was a stretch. Yes, definitely. But yeah, when you kind of put it like that, it's kind of the whole article will make carnists, meat eaters feel quite good about themselves.
00:44:28
Speaker
Yes, I'm a benevolent. Yes, I really, you know, I'm a traditional person. Yes, I really value family and all the rest of it. those i knew those those vegetarians vegans they were they're sort of yeah strident and you know we need to keep them down because they're obviously getting a bit above themselves you know yeah how dare they have their own opinions they're really gonna try and rock the boat hey don't you rock my traditional boat so
00:44:58
Speaker
yeah it i i did think it was a shame that it seemed to just be falling into the trap of i'll tell people what they want to hear and then we'll get some more thumbs up some more clicks some more engagement and and um and blah blah blah but i think we should probably expect that in 2025 but um yeah nice idea nice scope of this study but the the methodology i think was a it a bit dodgy but I'm still going to get behind any more studies that can seek to shine more of a light on why we as human beings behave the way that we do the the way that we do mental gymnastics to to justify killing fish as we had from your pick of the week Kate and you know and and to seek ways of challenging that and and
00:45:43
Speaker
turning the dial and and switching the direction of travel that's what the planet and the sentient beings need isn't it so let's see more of those in the future well that is mine and Kate's pick for the week but we really really do love hearing what you have got to say about the week's news or indeed about anything else we have got a listener mailbag episode coming out in just a few days time so you've probably missed that but all emails and correspondence that we hear We do feature in those shows unless you don't want us to.
00:46:15
Speaker
So here is how to get in touch. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:46:25
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:46:37
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today.
Reptile Breeders Meet: Ethical Concerns
00:46:40
Speaker
Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. Well, we've got time for just one more story. And goodness me, Kate, we've we've got to be honest. We've got to be honest when, you know, vegans take things too far and they're they're they're being nasty and naughty and horrible because because news provided to us from the International Herpetology Society Herpetology, for those who don't know, is a branch of zoology concerned with the study of amphibians, caecilians and reptiles. Yes, I did just look that up.
00:47:12
Speaker
But they have reported the news that animal activist groups are using bully tactics once again. The vegans are bullying. Well, well, what's going on then?
00:47:25
Speaker
Let's delve into this a bit more. The Woodbank Garden Centre, which I'm assuming is in the UK by the ah context of the rest of the article, they have a long-standing and legal event that was due to be held there.
00:47:41
Speaker
However, animal rights organisations have once again launched a campaign against this. Despite the fact that the event meets all the regulatory and welfare standards and operates within the law, what could it be that these animal rights groups are possibly rallying against?
00:47:58
Speaker
This sounds like a perfectly legal and regular thing. Well, this is a breeder's meet organized by the International Herpetology Society. So reptiles, amphibians, those sort of creatures.
00:48:12
Speaker
Members are permitted to sell surplus captive bred reptiles and amphibians. The event's been held for many years, which of course therefore means it's okay. If something's happened before, it must be okay, of course.
00:48:26
Speaker
The Animal Protection Agency, World Animal Protection and Freedom for Animals have all jumped on board to criticise the event and to suggest that it doesn't happen. But like I say, the IHS, International Herpetology Society, they have been engaging in what's been described as bully tactics.
00:48:47
Speaker
Oh, bully! um They say the event is lawful. Recent amendments to the Animal Welfare Act clearly confirm that members are permitted to sell surplus stock at such meets.
00:49:00
Speaker
These events have never had any animal welfare issues and and we always ensure high welfare standards. And there's two independent vets there as well, as well as representatives from the local council, DEFRA, and other regulatory bodies.
00:49:17
Speaker
Well, Kate, What do you think these animal rights or organisations are playing at? This is clearly legal. There's vets there. What could they possibly have to criticise?
00:49:29
Speaker
What bullies? What spoil sports, honestly? I know. I think I saw somebody's comment. I have paid for my accommodation. I'm coming from a zillion miles away. I'm coming from the moon.
00:49:42
Speaker
And now I can't come. I'm so disappointed. So it's, um yeah... I don't know. they ah I think they closed down another reptile market like couple of years ago, thinking that was going to be the last one ever. I don't know if I'm getting in a muddle there, but fancy having Defra there.
00:50:01
Speaker
Defra, good grief, you know. Well, it does kind of suggest that there's something a bit, um if not shady, a little bit fragile if Defra need to be there. I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't get Defra just turning up at pet shop, would Not really, no, not usually. Not that they're okay. No, exactly, not that they're okay and indeed. if they Are they worried about if there's a lee um you know creatures coming in from the wild that have been smuggled in perhaps? I don't know. It's not very, it doesn't actually say, but this is a press release
00:50:32
Speaker
from the herpetological society whatever they're called them them ones it's going to be a bit skewed on their side isn't it so what's what's interesting yeah is we got this story on wednesday so this this press release came out wednesday the 11th of june And at the end of this, that we'll put a link in the show notes for, it says, as of now, the breeders' meat at Woodbank Garden Centre remains fully compliant with the law and continues to operate with transparency and oversight.
00:51:02
Speaker
Organisers say they will not be deterred. Okay? And then, if you do a quick little Google of the event and the venue, we've got a story the following day, twelfth of June,
00:51:14
Speaker
from the Telegraph and Argus, a ah Bradford district garden centre will no longer be hosting an event after quite a few things came to light that it was certainly not aware of.
00:51:24
Speaker
So it seems like these quote bully tactics, whilst the International Herpetology Society have said, no, no, no we're compliant, actually the garden centre themselves will have said, oh, this sounds actually really dodgy. When you frame it like that, animal activists, we're not so keen on it.
00:51:45
Speaker
So we're cancelling it. So, I mean, call them bully tactics or not, but it's worked. Yeah. Interesting, isn't it? But I don't know if you looked up but the garden centre itself. It does sell.
00:51:56
Speaker
fluffy pets and fishes. so it does So they probably don't want to draw attention to themselves in that way because they they're selling animals. But yeah, just I'd love to know exactly what they what they were worried what they were worried about.
00:52:14
Speaker
You know, i mean, apparently they they they're sold in... I mean, why are they breeding them in the first place? Why are they breeding them? And why have they got so many that they want to sell them?
00:52:26
Speaker
You know, and they're probably selling them to people who... have no idea how to look after these creatures. It's probably quite specialist, I'm assuming, um special specialist needs that they have.
00:52:39
Speaker
And they' they're being sent home. I wonder how many of those little animals survive. ah think they they're kind of kept in little plastic tubs that are very stressful for them. And they probably traveled great long distances. And um why why are they doing it? I mean, Well, ah the thing that I think is the most disingenuous is the emphasis they're putting on the fact that, oh it's surplus stock.
00:53:06
Speaker
We're only selling surplus stock. And you think, well, hang on. If you're making money from it, can you possibly say that it's surplus? Like there's clearly a business interest in doing that.
00:53:17
Speaker
Oh, i've I've accidentally got a surplus of 20,000 animals to sell this year. Whoops. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. That's going to make me millions of pounds. Oh, never mind. like what what an absolute nonsense good good on the folk who've i mean how they've done it seems to be they have tried to do um they've not just tried they've been successful in sullying the good name of the woodbank garden center by making a public hoo-ha about it because when it's being cancelled they've said
00:53:51
Speaker
oh we certainly don't want to upset anyone including our loyal customers and the general public not to mention our reputation so that's what the hosts are afraid of i wonder if there were demonstrations planned as well that might have been a bit upsetting for people to have to walk past to go and get their pot plants or whatever it was i don't know and but yeah so i mean we've covered in the past the fact that you know so-called exotic pets, fish, etc., they often end up being released by their owners that cannot cope with them. And then, you know, going out into the wild and if they survive, sometimes out-competing the local wildlife.
00:54:34
Speaker
And I did wonder if um any lizards or ah snakes or whatever had made it into the wild in the UK and and were surviving and apparently there are so there is the wool lizard I don't know where that comes from originally but that competes with native lizards and I think that's found like in some parts of the south of England and then there's the red-eared slider turtle which I'd never heard of either and that eats amphibians and fish eggs there's a yellow bellied sliders which I'm guessing must be tur a type of turtle as well
00:55:13
Speaker
Also eating um local wildlife. The next thing you know, there's going to be people out hunting them, isn't there? You know, let's hunt these creatures. you I mean? It's just, oh dear, same old, same old.
00:55:24
Speaker
and that And you do get snakes and iguanas, you know, that at the moment don't appear to survive our winters. But what with global warm warming, perhaps they will. so Yeah, yeah.
00:55:37
Speaker
I mean there's so so many things wrong with this but yeah like you say why have they why are they breeding them and being allowed to sell them for money it just sounds like a ah kind of sale a market for them doesn't it so yes it does it does and I think like it's it's interesting looking back at the pick for the week that I raised about the the the study saying actually it seems that those who consume meat are perhaps a bit more interested in compliance and going with the flow and actually what seems to have caused this event to be cancelled is a few people saying well I'm not happy about this going on we're going to cause a stink we're going picket your garden centre or whatever like you say if you if you you support this event you're going to have to walk past our picket in order to buy your succulents on Sunday or whatever
00:56:29
Speaker
um well ah an animal rights activist is is gonna be fine doing that if if someone's saying well are you are you happy standing up for your beliefs and you know you you would walk past a bunch of people screaming saying ah vegan food's horrible ra ah you'd be like ah whatever i don't care whereas actually if carnists are don't like the boat being rocked, then perhaps more of these bully tactics is is what's needed. How far are you?
00:56:59
Speaker
I mean, calling it bully tactics is a load of old rubbish because you're talking about a creature that is, what, 20 times bigger than you, putting you in a tiny little crate and carting you off to a garden centre and selling you for money.
00:57:14
Speaker
Who's the bully? What load of nonsense. Good riddance to them, that's what I say. I just think they're probably going to meet in a shady car park somewhere and just sell these lizards out the back of their van, aren't they they? Yeah, quite likely. Quite likely. and But no one from DEFRA will be there. No, indeed.
00:57:33
Speaker
Oh, no. Yeah. Oh, dear. Honestly. just Well, i think like I say, well done all of the people who were involved in...
00:57:44
Speaker
in rallying against this and doesn't it just show everybody that actually we may be small in number for now but we can make a difference right that is the end of our stories so i'm going to do what i always do at this point i'm going to press a button and kate is going to encourage you to do something very nice for us If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too.
00:58:12
Speaker
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00:58:28
Speaker
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00:58:38
Speaker
Thank you everyone for listening and thank you Anthony. It's been really great chatting with you about the news. So dear listeners, this is a heads up for the next Enough of the Falafel episode which is coming out from Thursday the 19th of June.
00:58:57
Speaker
It's with myself and Anthony and it's a vegan talk episode but and it's a listener mailbag special. and Indeed, indeed. But like I say, if you send us an email off the back of this episode, it will be in the next mailbag because you've missed the post for this time, but it should still be a great conversation all the same. Anyway, that is enough of the falafel this episode.
00:59:21
Speaker
Thank you, Kate, for your contributions. Thanks everyone for listening. I've been Anthony. You've been listening to Vegan Week from the Enough of the Falafel Collective.
00:59:35
Speaker
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00:59:50
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
01:00:16
Speaker
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01:00:37
Speaker
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Speaker
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