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180- Keeping the wolf (or prawn sandwich) from the door
0 Playsin 2 days
Listener Neil got in touch with us a while back to ask how to go about telling his good friends...that the occasional animal products that accompany them into his home...are no longer welcome! Ant, Dominic & Paul discuss how they navigate the issue of animal products around the home, how things can change over time & make some suggestions for Neil- or anyone else- that might find themselves wanting to initiate potentially awkward conversations with well-meaning carnist friends.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Dominic, Paul & Anthony
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Transcript
Humorous Introduction
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone, welcome to another Enough of the Falafel podcast. Now before we go any further, I am going to need to check your bags for any signs of animal products and if needed, we may need to resort to a full cavity search. I'm Anthony and for this episode I'm also joined by Dominic and Paul.
00:00:19
Speaker
So
Challenges for Vegans
00:00:21
Speaker
I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Protein! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere.
00:00:30
Speaker
We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? they They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me, oh no. Hang on a minute, you always pick
00:00:48
Speaker
social injustice has connection with another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you don't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be alright. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:01:00
Speaker
No I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision. Hello everyone, this is Paul. Welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk and thank you for joining us. alo Hello, hello, hello. My name is Dominic.
00:01:17
Speaker
Vegan Talk is different to the Vegan Week podcast we do. That's covering the news, whereas this one we're covering our views. Look, a little bit of rhyming for you there. Spotlight. A little bit of rhyming for you.
Listener's Dilemma
00:01:31
Speaker
yeah so all the previous episodes of vegan talk are available in your podcast feed indeed now today we are here to discuss the thorny issue of where to draw the line with regards to animal products in your own home and we were sent this as a topic by one of our many brilliant listeners, Neil. And Neil has an extra unofficial role. I was telling Dominic and Paul, off air, Neil is the first to message in if I've done a duff job editing and I've accidentally deleted too much of something so that we have short periods of silence in our episodes. Neil is very fastidious and I'm very grateful
00:02:16
Speaker
for him pointing these things out to us. So we absolutely had to feature his question. I'm going to read out his email that he sent to us a few months ago.
00:02:27
Speaker
and then we will get the ball rolling. Neil says, hi, I was just wondering if during one of your upcoming podcasts, you could possibly talk about the issue of people coming into your house with non-vegan food to eat themselves.
00:02:42
Speaker
I have two people who quite regularly visit me and do this. It's things like prawn slash egg sandwiches and things with dairy in them like pizza, muesli, or yogurt.
00:02:55
Speaker
I know they wouldn't sit in front of me and eat a bacon roll or such like, but as we vegans
Vegan and Non-Vegan Household Dynamics
00:03:01
Speaker
know only too well, the cruelty behind what they are eating is just as bad.
00:03:07
Speaker
I'd like some thoughts on how best to go about explaining to them that I no longer want them to bring non-vegan food into my house in a polite and respectful way, as both of these people are very good at providing me with vegan food when I am in their houses.
00:03:26
Speaker
Thanks in anticipation and keep up your excellent podcasts. Best wishes, Neil. Right, we're going to get on to giving some solutions and some suggested courses of action for Neil or or how we would go about this.
00:03:42
Speaker
But I thought we could start off by hearing Dominic and Paul's and then I'll pitch in with my own stance on having animal products involved.
00:03:53
Speaker
in our own homes. and possibly whether it would be different if we were sharing homes with different people to who we currently do because actually it's very straightforward saying oh I currently have this stance but actually if life was in a different way then perhaps we'd have a different set of rules Dominic would you be happy getting the ball rolling here what's what's your current stance on this and and has it been different in the past It most certainly has. So for nearly 12 years, i was living in a flat, which I can see right now out of the window of where I'm currently living because I've moved just a couple of doors down. I was previously living with a vegan friend, so an all-vegan flat.
00:04:40
Speaker
And neither of us own the flat. So I am a person who rents the property in which I live. And the landlady was really neglectful over the years. The property was getting worse and worse and worse and being damaged and nothing being repaired.
00:04:56
Speaker
And it got to the point where I was looking for a place to move. And I have moved in with a person who... Eats meat. A person who eats meat.
00:05:08
Speaker
I know. I'm coming up for my 46th birthday. And since the age of... thought you were to say the 46th day. Like you've been counting the days. Not that much longer. I've been here two months. I've been here two months.
00:05:21
Speaker
So I'll give you my report on what it's been. Coming up from 46th birthday and since the age of seven. Oh no, maybe not quite that long. Nearly 40 years, nearly 40 years I've been in meat-free places, ah you know, gradually going on to vegan.
00:05:36
Speaker
and So the reason I chose to move here is because ah Gary, I shall name, and and shame... The person. Like, there's no shame there. You know, Gary is, um he's a really thoughtful person and we've discussed it.
00:05:54
Speaker
And so we, you know, my room that I'm recording this, this is my vegan room and it's right at the other end of the kitchen. And yet, believe me, I would rather be living in a vegan house. I really thought, do I want to move here? Do I want... I had to top up all the other things, the price of the rent, the location, the noise levels, the other neighbours, all those things that we all think about when we're thinking of where to live.
00:06:19
Speaker
And you know what? All the other things were so very, very good. I made the decision. I thought, am I making a massive mistake? Like, not just intellectually, but emotionally. How will I feel? And it made me hugely aware of the previous privilege I'd had exactly as you laid out, Anthony. Oh, well, I will never have this in my home.
00:06:44
Speaker
And that's not the case anymore. I think that... Gary's really good at communicating and Gary is really good at saying he will do a thing and then doing it. He's a person who's true to his word.
00:06:59
Speaker
So although, yes, yes, yes, I would love to live in an all vegan house. I don't. And he's really sort of sensitive. So we've got our fixed meal times. We share. I've got my own cutlery.
00:07:11
Speaker
my own plates, my own shelf in the fridge, my own shelf in the freezer. It's a bath, so there's no chance of anything dropping in it. Everything's put away in boxes, which I know is a little bit like ignorance is bliss. It's a little bit of ignorance is bliss, but i really appreciate that. And it was Gary who offered to do that. You know, I thought that was a
Handling Non-Vegan Items
00:07:31
Speaker
really lovely thing.
00:07:32
Speaker
So, yeah that's my current situation and I would love it to be different but besides we have to accept the situation we've got this is the situation that I am in yeah and and you know that's that's really helpful to hear and it's clear to hear where you have had to make a compromise but still other areas where you are drawing a line or you are coming up with an agreement and things like that and i'm i'm assuming there's not a bare skin rug in the middle of the yeah living room floor as well because actually when we talk about animal products we're not just talking about food are we of course that's really helpful thank you dominic paul where's your line then what lines do you draw in the stand or literally across your kitchen threshold yeah it's it's uh it's a mixed bag as in it's not it's not a uh
00:08:18
Speaker
It's a bit fuzzy, I suppose, in in in honesty. So yes, I do have signs on my kitchen saying vegan kitchen and I have a sign on the floor saying something to the same effect. But I do have some members of family turning up with, typically if they come here, ah they'll bring like a carton of milk.
00:08:37
Speaker
And sometimes like a ham sandwich in a box or something like that. And I do kind of think, God, sort of thing. But they wouldn't like insist on cooking any meat when they're here.
00:08:48
Speaker
I cook vegan food. They eat the vegan food. It's usually if they've had something in the car because they travel around in a motorhome quite a lot. It's kind of they just bring in stuff in from the motorhome. I would rather they didn't do it. It happens.
00:08:59
Speaker
i'm not I'm not getting too stressed about it. I've also in the past when I hold a ah reunion at my house every year. I have mates up and I have in the past I've said to people should we go out and eat it'll be a bit easier but I've had something recently where i kind of let let my standards sit to some degree because I said right there's certain things I make okay we're gonna have pizza and you eat the pizza out the box and we chuck the box out we'll go with that I've kind of been a bit blurred there so it certainly lacks a bit of consistency I'm aware of that
00:09:33
Speaker
and The other thing as well, though, like you said, I'm glad you mentioned it. It's not just about food. Cause like, I i like like most vegans. I imagine I'm, I wouldn't stop anyone stepping in with leather shoes on into the house.
00:09:46
Speaker
I mean, people take their shoes off from my house. Cause I kind of, you know, say usually say if people do, well, people do offer, don't they normally anyway? So, so that's fine. If they don't again, I'm not really and carpets naked anyway, but if people if people get, I'm not too worried. I'm not going to sort sit there going all the other shoes. And also,
00:10:03
Speaker
where I'm currently sitting as well, and Dom knows the story because he's he's been here. I have got, I have actually for my scenes, I have a leather sofa. And you might think, what are you doing on this show? You charlatan sort of thing.
00:10:14
Speaker
But it was left with the house and the guy couldn't get it out the house because the doors are too small. he Because changed the doors. And I said, I don't want it, mate. I'm vegan. And he said, well, I can't move are we going to do? And was like, oh...
00:10:26
Speaker
leave it i thought just leave it and i'll cover it with some stuff and then i thought because um i've had cats all the time you and i thought oh the cat scratch it it'll get knackered and i'll chainsaw through it it's unfortunately really really sturdy i mean it's like the cat's ripped it it and i and know i also don't want to spend like you know two grand on a new sofa sort of thing so i'm not perfect i know that i have cat food in the house as well i'm feeding the cats so again you know this there's levels and i I think you know you you kind of make your own decision and say there's certain things I would rather people didn't do like if if someone turned up with like I don't know like a a dead carcass of a pig over them or something like that it would be unexpected and I'd also be like well no that's that's not coming in sort of thing but then I sound like I'm saying oh just a little bit of meat just a little bit of milk that's okay so I'm I'm conscious of the conscious of the uh inconsistency shall we say but it's it's kind of
00:11:22
Speaker
I suppose it's your house, you kind of come up with what your you're happy with. It's a bit like sort of saying, you know, you wouldn't want someone to come in with muddy boots on or something like that, or you wouldn't want someone to come someone's come in and start spray canning the walls. It's of like certain things.
00:11:36
Speaker
mean, it doesn't happen around Worcester, that, but, you know, it's So it's it's ah my it's it's a fuzzy line, not completely straight, but that's what it is. Well, I think it's really important and valuable to to draw attention to that. Like, we're human beings, aren't we? We're...
00:11:51
Speaker
we're navigating a non-vegan world and actually that, that non-vegan world doesn't completely stop at the threshold of our door, does it? You know, it's, it's there, there are going to be inconsistencies and I think it's,
00:12:04
Speaker
It's useful to draw attention to them. I'll say a couple of things. ah Firstly, I've had the great joy of being around Paul's ah place and meeting the cats in question. um like I think there's different ah paths that we we take. we So like my own path is that um I've never...
00:12:21
Speaker
lived with an animal part of my sort of vegan thing is that I don't share my home with animals what I'm aware with Paul is that just as Paul has and I think it's a great thing that Paul is not just tipping the leather so far I think that that would be adding to waste adding to destruction consumerism buying you know me subjectively I support that and I've also got so much admiration for Paul for where these cats have come from, Paul has always taken in really like, you know, the waifs and the cats who've had a terrible, terrible stuff, which I've got huge, huge admiration.
00:12:59
Speaker
um I am a man who is autistic. That's the thing about me. And as an autistic person, I love clarity and I struggle with presumptions.
00:13:12
Speaker
So Paul was talking about fuzziness, but in a way, yeah My take is that if I go into someone's home, I'm fine with them saying... Let's use the muddy shoes example, a non-vegan example.
00:13:25
Speaker
If they go to me, oh, you know, can you take off your shoes? Fine. If they do a sneery kind of, well, obviously in polite society we take off our shoes...
00:13:36
Speaker
Oh, that grinds my gears. That grinds my gears. Because you know what? I'm a poet. i mix with people from all walks of life. I've met poets who live in homes where, you know, there are people who are, you know, really...
00:13:52
Speaker
Really from disadvantaged backgrounds. i mean, disadvantage is an understatement. Who are welcomed and embraced by the Poetry Society. I've been in homes with people whose siblings and housemates are heroin addicts. People who don't have carpet, you know.
00:14:07
Speaker
And so removing their shoes, that's just not something you would do there. that's like Because there's probably nails in the floor. They're not bad people. They're not rude people. They're not wrong people. Just their way of being is different. So this kind of snide presumption that, oh, everybody knows that you take off muddy boots. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah.
00:14:28
Speaker
My thing is that if you politely say to someone, oh, this is the home, would you do this? I i think it's a... not great thing to willfully disobey that.
00:14:41
Speaker
Having said that, and I'm aware i've chatted for ages, so I'll stop talking for now, but I will say in a little bit to Neil, Neil asking, how does Neil talk to his really well-meaning friends who are really accommodating in loads of ways? I do think there are more skillful and less skillful ways of putting across a cross ah you request, a clear request to people entering our homes. Yeah.
00:15:06
Speaker
yeah that's a good It's a good point. I think, um yeah, it's probably important we go back to that point because it's it's they sound like very reasonable, good people. And I imagine if they get on in their friends, you could sort of sit down and say, hey, I've got a thing I want to talk about just to talk through if it's not a bit weird or something and then get to talk through and you sort of go, oh right, okay, yeah, yeah, fair enough then. You'd probably find that's the case.
00:15:30
Speaker
um I've got my mates who will be turning up next week. They're all like ah generally Essex geezers and like we'll go out and it'll be like geezer, geezer, geezer type stuff and they know them they know I'm vegan and they'll take the piss a bit but it's actually all with really good stead and like you'll find them sort saying, oh oh, is this place all right for you to eat and and stuff like that? So they do care it's it's a bit it is banter and i take it as banter um and ah you know it's kind of and some of them go i don't really understand it but i i respect it so it's kind of like so you get people like yeah that that and that's fine and the other thing i was going to say um
00:16:07
Speaker
this I hope I'm not going off a tangent here, but like Dom, i don't know if you remember when you came up, I was kind of... Dom was vegan coming to my house, and i I probably get more worried that I've got the leather sofa and stuff like that. So I'm always like, I must tell people I've got this because I...
00:16:22
Speaker
Maybe I'm, maybe I'm embarrassed about it. I don't know but I'd say, Oh, just to let you know, I've got that. And this is a story by it. don't think I'm kind of like some kind of like a vegan, who isn't a vegan sort of thing. I just say, this is, this is why I've got this. And just to to explain Cause I like to, cause if people like, Oh, I don't really want to sit on that. Yeah. That's cool. Sit on the floor, whatever like that, but just say, look, this is why I've got it. So I think, um, I to have vegan meetings around here and say to people,
00:16:45
Speaker
Sorry about the sofa, but that's where we are at the moment. Let's plan the revolution. so it's Yeah, I think it's it's a really interesting point. And and Dominic, you've you've kind of commented on on how you know arguably Paul chucking his, ah you know fly tipping his sofa is not a particularly positive net result.
00:17:05
Speaker
i Just to give my context, that um myself and Alex, my partner are both vegan. And so that's but and we're the only two people in the house. So to our knowledge, there are not animal products anywhere. And my previous relationship, I was married for 11 years. We were both vegan too.
00:17:23
Speaker
and the the The only time where the question of animal products came into the house was when my previous wife's parents came to stay and they would come to stay for quite a while. They'd be they'd be down for a week or or so. And so a concession was made for dairy milk being in a carton in a fridge.
00:17:43
Speaker
But also what would happen is she'd say, no, I absolutely refuse you not having meat in the fridge. But then every day... they would go out to Marks and Spencer's, help her parents, and buy like a ham sandwich. And he'd also go to the M&S food and get some pork pies and eat them in the car and blah, blah.
00:18:03
Speaker
And I almost wondered whether actually that was encouraging more animal product consumption than if we'd have just let him have a little Tupperware He brought himself of of some ham and just, you know, help himself to a little slice from from time to time. I know, it you know, that the generally speaking,
Emotional Journey into Veganism
00:18:21
Speaker
when people put these boundaries and these agreements in place, they're doing so because it's their own home and because it's...
00:18:29
Speaker
is about what you feel comfortable with and what your principles are. You're not necessarily looking at the the net gain or loss and, you know, which a number of animal products consumed or whatever. But that did always make me feel a bit odd in that generally speaking, in sort of late afternoon, you'd see them coming in and,
00:18:46
Speaker
And dear George, who's no longer with us, just shoving a final cheese sandwich in his mouth. Hang on. I'm really not sure that this is a decision that is necessarily helping animals, banning animal products from the house. But still not something I would feel comfortable with looking looking at, you know, carcasses in the fridge or what have you. It's a really tricky balance to get. My journey into veganism was a really emotional one. I'd moved to the city as a vegetarian. I had some really... regressive, horrible views on vegans. I thought veganism was extreme and silly and a load of nonsense.
00:19:29
Speaker
And then I, as a person in the city, became increasingly aware of everything. And I became agoraphobic. My first reaction, I didn't want to go out in a non-vegan world. My mental health suffered terribly. I was in my sort mid-20s.
00:19:48
Speaker
And I was just, I was, I was crying. I was just in a thought. And I would have been a person who would not have wanted to go over to Paul's house and sit on his leather settee. It really took. And again, now I realize I'm autistic and that things are very literal and very black and white with me. And I just couldn't understand now that I'd been exposed to this factual information about the environment, about animals, animals,
00:20:15
Speaker
how anyone could not come to the same conclusion as me, that it was wrong, go vegan, simple as. And when people weren't doing that, I just withdrew. i withdrew.
00:20:28
Speaker
And I had to for my own journey, think really hard about how i was going to behave in and out of my house. That's how I conquered my agoraphobia. Over a long period time, it was like, OK, so here's what I have within my home.
00:20:44
Speaker
But then when I go out or I am making these compromises in order to engage with the wider community, world. And I spoke on a previous podcast about how, and I'm not suggesting anyone else do this or need to do this, but how I would um walk through the fish hole of the market, like the most smelly, yeah nasty, upsetting place to toughen myself up a bit.
00:21:08
Speaker
Again, I'm not implying that anyone else needs to toughen themselves up. I mean, that's a particular turn of phrase I chose to use. To this day, I defend anyone. If anybody said, i don't want to sit on a leather settee, absolutely, that is a really understandable state to take, a really understandable thing.
00:21:29
Speaker
so but But yeah, going back to that point, I think it's about clarity of information and good on Paul for making it really clear and having the foresight that potentially it
Navigating Friendships and Veganism
00:21:41
Speaker
could be an emotive or a principle-led issue that someone might want to know in advance knowledge is good and communication is good and clarity is good too isn't it so let's let's move on to Neil's situation there he is seeking some clarity with these particular friends who
00:22:03
Speaker
who he's ah he's identified, they're good friends, they're people who have been considerate towards his veganism, they have they have kind of gone out of their comfort zone to facilitate his dietary choices and and and and beliefs when he is visiting them. He's also identified he does want to make a change here and I think the three of us have all acknowledged situations in which we have compromised because of a wider context, to actually say, well, though in an ideal world there wouldn't be animal products in my home in this specific instance, then fine, I'll let that pass.
00:22:45
Speaker
That's not what Neil is saying, though. He's saying that has been the case. That has been the case, and he would like to change that. Anyone got any thoughts then? What's he going to do? How could Neil...
00:22:59
Speaker
go about this or indeed how would we go about it i think i touched it earlier on i think that as i say think have that have that conversation when they sound like the sort of people you could have that conversation with and hope that it'd be like hey you know been having this know thinking want to try do this because uh it's not like he's going to be accusatory saying oh you keep bringing stuff around it's like hey i'm looking to try and bring myself some calm and etc around the house by doing that um would you how i would almost even say maybe how would you feel about that you know they might just go yeah whatever no worries and that might sound a bit wishy-washy to sort of put it in a rather than i've made this decision you can't do that it depends on the people doesn't it really um
00:23:41
Speaker
i be I would think I'd probably approach it more in a kind of, hey, this is what I'm thinking. How does that work for you? Sort of thing. And I hope that they come back with something that's almost like, yeah, no, no worries. Yeah. I really like the idea of kind of like taking it to them and kind of opening up as a, as a dialogue rather than a,
00:24:00
Speaker
this is a line in the sand and this is an absolute thing. I think because something I'm learning through my work, I work in what you could call like quite a therapeutic setting and just seeing how strong, it's not a motivator, it's quite the opposite, but shame And the feeling of shame is a really strong and powerful emotion. And I feel like there's there's probably not going to be any getting away from the fact that upon hearing that ah that Neil would like them to change their behaviour, these friends might inadvertently feel shame
00:24:36
Speaker
But if it feels at all like Neil is pouring that on and is trying to make them feel shame, that's not going to be a great thing for a relationship. So really trying to kind of set the parameters and say, like, it's, you know, let's not worry about the fact that this has happened before.
00:24:51
Speaker
Like, that's not an issue. I'm not not having a go at you. But I'm feeling like I would like, I would feel a lot more comfortable in the future if this can be a thing that can happen. um then Please, please don't feel anything about what's happened in the past. I think that's that would be a key thing to.
00:25:07
Speaker
Yeah. yeah maybe Yeah. Yeah. Like you say, like not saying I can't believe you've done that for the last two years when I've not been happy with it. You just you're just saying this is something I'm feeling and starting to feel now.
00:25:19
Speaker
And this is something I'd like to do about it in the future. Not in kind of historic thing. Yeah. and not Not that at all. I really agree with what the two of you have said. I was hoping to be like, no, I'm going to take the opposite stance. But I do. I genuinely agree. I really agree with what Paul said, saying, how do you feel about that? I think that's a really good thing to do.
00:25:39
Speaker
I am a martial artist. I've practiced taekwondo for 20 years now. And we cannot change anyone else's behavior. If I go out on the street and a person wants to attack me, all I can do is think about how I'm going to react to that. I can control my own body, my own actions.
00:26:03
Speaker
I can work really hard on changing my own emotions. That's a really long-term thing that we don't just do overnight. But I can't say to the person who wants to attack me, no, you mustn't attack me. Yeah, that's not going to work. I cannot control that other person.
00:26:21
Speaker
And I do think it can feel like being attacked when somebody willfully doesn't do what we would like them to do. So for me, if it was a genuine accident, let's say for the sake of argument, Neil has done.
00:26:38
Speaker
what we've just said, and let's say the friends have responded positively and gone, we will do that. and then they don't, where do we go from there? Where do we go from there? where I would go is think, well, was it an accident or was it um intended? Was was it an attack?
00:26:56
Speaker
Because, you know, people, not ah poor Neil's friends, I've never even met them, never even met Neil, and I'm casting doubt on Neil's friendship. Besides, relationships do change. We've got to make a choice. I mean, like Paul was talking about his friends and the banter,
00:27:12
Speaker
You know, I'm a man who is a gay man. I know the difference between someone saying a cheeky thing that an outsider might be like, oh, that person's just said really homophobic thing to Dominic. No, I haven't. They're my friend. We know each other really well. We're just mucking around together.
00:27:28
Speaker
There's respect there. Or when somebody says something that might sound really similar, but is pointed, that is meant, that is mean, that is nasty. And similarly, you know, I've got a vegan friend whose sister has come into her home and just been really passive aggressive. They have a poor relationship already. And she has brought her food in knowing full well what has been asked of her, knowing full well that she agreed to this and opening up the packaging and being like, oh, well, it's just this, isn't it? And that is not an accident.
00:28:04
Speaker
That is men. And what Ian, my friend, has done, he doesn't have his sister over. They they meet in cafes. That's his. And I'm not saying that's the only reaction. But i am saying is he's asked her, will you be a certain way? Because it really upsets me. He's not done it in a pouring shame
Vegan Identity and Social Interactions
00:28:21
Speaker
on her way. He's just gone, oh, you know, like in my home. Is that all right? She said, yeah.
00:28:26
Speaker
And he's very confident that she's not doing it by accident. So yeah, I think that's the big thing I keep repeating that we can only control ourselves.
00:28:37
Speaker
And believe me, I'm a single man who has dated a whole load of non-vegans and I have. tried to control them i have forced them to watch the videos i've given them really guilt trippy talks and it's worked short term it has not worked long term it has not you know because we can't control other people we can't there's something else i was just mention as well dom i think we when we talked about your past sort of dating like missing guys for example i was saying how i had a a couple of lodges stay with me who weren't vegan and i was kind of helping helping out mate of a mate sort of thing and uh they knew i was vegan i knew they weren't vegan so we before they even moved in ah we we had a chat and sort said like you know we talked about the obvious stuff like how much is it going to be what are the rules sort of thing and i had a cat at the time said
00:29:32
Speaker
she's absolutely number one priority. She mustn't get out. That's my number one. so I said two rules. Number one is a cat comes above everything. And two, you know, I'm vegan, so we need to work something out.
00:29:43
Speaker
And we just negotiated. i can't even remember what i negotiated with that person now, but I think she basically said, look, it's cool. I'm actually quite happy, like eating at work and I'll come back and I'll have I'll have a snack.
00:29:54
Speaker
I can't remember what arranged now, but we just, you know, we got the the stuff down and agreed and it didn't get diverted. So, it was done up front a bit different to Neil's situation because it's kind of it's gone on it's almost it's more awkward isn't it to almost change something than it is from the start but obviously his view it sounds like as I don't think it is awkward Paul I think that I think that you I think it's more awkward like because how I would word it and yeah you could argue this is a slight dishonesty but I'd word it out Paul said I would say oh, here's something that I'm feeling now. I would word it. I wouldn't say, oh, I've been thinking this for ages and I've been wondering how to, brightt I've been so worried, how am I going to bring it up?
00:30:35
Speaker
Because then there is, even though it's not worded in a shame causing thing, any kind person is going to be thinking oh my goodness i've been upsetting neil i feel so bad and that's not a good start for a negotiation so i was so worried i've emailed this podcast and they've been talking about it for half an hour three complete strangers have been working it out for me i wouldn't i wouldn't word it like that of course i would would just say listen to the podcast as well I would just say, here's something that I'm thinking about. And it's exactly the same as any negotiation, like Paul and his housemates. If you're talking, you know, oh, is this the kind of house where we have drum and bass played at four zero in the morning? Is this the kind of house...
00:31:22
Speaker
where um where we drink alcohol or is it a teetotal house? You know, is this the kind of house where we have friends over or is this the kind of house where it's a retreat from? All of those are fair enough things. It's just another fair enough thing to talk about. So like a negotiation between me and mark my friend here, you know, we're but we're both guys who are like over 40 and like we're we're quiet in in the evening. i mean? Like I've shared with younger people before,
00:31:50
Speaker
for them, it's absolutely fair enough to roll in drunk from the nightclub. I'm still dancing to Prodigy. And that's not inherently wrong, but it's what I'm not looking for. So there doesn't need to be a judgment if I say, oh, in my shared space, can we not do that? like And again, if they break that, well, then i have to think what I can control. have to think, you know well, how do I...
00:32:16
Speaker
And I think this situation with the with the prawns and the milk is exactly the same. It's just a negotiation. I would treat it as a fresh new thing that's come up.
00:32:27
Speaker
And just like Paul said, just ask them, you know, what do we think? I lived with a Spanish fella from a very, very meat eating family 10 years ago. And I so tentatively brought up the subject of veganism, really ready to be talking about Tupperware and hiding things away. And I said, what do you think? And the moment those words had left my mouth, this is 10 years ago, I thought, I shouldn't have asked him, should i I? shouldn't have asked him. Why have I said, what do you think? Because obviously his answer is going to be, well, I think that's an outrageous thing to even suggest.
00:33:02
Speaker
He surprised me. he was like, I'll go vegan. was like, whoo! And I was thinking, but he's not going to do it, is he? He did. Problem solved. Problem solved. So what in my head I'd like built up as a huge worry. My friend's not going to be respectful or he's going to be hurt. He's going to be shamed.
00:33:22
Speaker
He's going to react against it anyway. When I said, what do you think? He responded in a really wonderfully surprising, positive way. And there were no issues about that.
00:33:33
Speaker
And i think I think given what you said about them accommodating him over there, they're people that want to accommodate. they want That's part of their friendship, by the sounds of things, is the accommodating stuff. And o I suppose he's just asking you for a little bit more, hopefully. That'll be seen as just ah just a little tweak. And they'd probably go, yeah, seems fair enough. Yeah. yeah I thought the um the pragmatics of the situation were interesting in that I was trying to work out in in what context Neil's friends bringing around sandwiches, muesli and things like that. i mean i Not randomly turning up. Don't worry mate, I've got the muesli. But but that that's an interesting practical consideration and we've and we've already mentioned scenarios where folk have decided well actually ah our relationship now is not going to be one where we go round one another's house, we're going to meet in cafes because
00:34:30
Speaker
this issue of of and bringing animal product around is, you know, is is such a thing. And and and um I'm not sort of putting that forward as a step forward, but sometimes the pragmatics or the practicalities of things is an issue. So I don't know, I could imagine in Neil's situation saying, well, you know, could could you tell me some some things that you would like me to have in or something like that so so that you're not feeling you have to bring a sandwich round or ah ah a muesli or whatever it is but that very much depends on the situation doesn't it and I've certainly had situations where I've i've changed the scenario in which I'm meeting somebody or or what the expected activity is going to be just because it's it's been a time in my life where I've just not wanted to sit down at a table with folk
00:35:21
Speaker
and and them order animal products ah across the way from me. I know that's slightly a different topic, but even now, i have we've talked about how ah our rules or our standards may change.
00:35:36
Speaker
I will now sit at a table with somebody um that that's got animal products and eating them across for me, but I have a rule to myself that I will never ask them how their food is.
00:35:47
Speaker
because I don't care. I don't want to go, oh, that looks lovely. Like I can't say that, but I've had other times in my life where I've not sat down at a table with people if they're eating animal products. So sometimes you have, you, you will follow different practical courses of action. Weren't you? That's an interesting one. The one you just said, cause it's like a,
00:36:04
Speaker
I've been out with my partner and she said something to that again. Oh, yours looks nice. I've looked at it and gone, mate, are you talking about? Don't, don't, turning don't, don't reinforce this decision. It's like kind of, yeah yeah but anyway, she's just being very polite, you know, it's kind of, yeah. that's that's yes so Yeah, that's a whole other level, isn't it? Of not only you're not allowed to bring animal products into into this house, but you're not even allowed to utter any words that could possibly be reaffirming animal use or anything like that.
00:36:34
Speaker
Everything has to be met with disdain. so here's a stance. Here's stance. We are vegan and
Reflections and Humor
00:36:41
Speaker
by gosh, we are correct to be vegan. Being vegan is the correct way to be.
00:36:47
Speaker
However, that is, although right, an antagonistic way to start things. So I put forward that if I was in this scenario, I would put it very much forward as a as a personal request.
00:37:04
Speaker
And then I would be really thinking, is there something that I could that matters to the other person? Even if my head is saying, but they're not equal things.
00:37:18
Speaker
You know, let's say, um oh here's a repressed memory just come up. I used to really worry about having smelly feet. I used to really worry. I'd completely forgot that. So I didn't want to take my shoes off in people's homes.
00:37:32
Speaker
I was really concerned about that. I think it was all in my head. It was all psychosomatic. It became a real neurosis, a really like you know paranoid thing. Oh, people will make fun of me, people think, you know.
00:37:43
Speaker
So I really didn't like being asked to take my my shoes off. um but like if somebody you know that that could be a bit of give and take maybe Neil's friends have things like oh can you take your shoes off here or could you you know are you fine with me playing i don't know some awful type of music you know when when when you know we're together and like compromising on that i would would be actively looking for a thing that you could do that would be a goodwill gesture even though in your own
00:38:15
Speaker
intellectual mind they might not equate i would just think yeah that's that's a nice thing there there yeah it's offering a transaction isn't it away like kind of like if you do this for me is there something i can do for you sort of thing isn't it it's kind of like they might say no but they they might say yeah stop bringing this flipping vegan food around and else that and My mum, my mum, oh, my mum, oh, my mum.
00:38:40
Speaker
We often have this debate where she's like, well, it's the same thing in reverse, isn't It's the same thing in reverse. You like it vegan in yours, but it's the same thing in reverse. You need to accept that other people have got their beliefs, that they believe that it's not right to be vegan. And oh, I get angry. I'm like, no, no, it's not the same thing in reverse. Because one, I've got a whole load of factually accurate reasons why I'm vegan.
00:39:10
Speaker
Most meat eaters, it's just like they've not thought about it. It's just like not something that that goes deeply, you know, into a just, some have. But loads haven't, loads haven't, loads haven't.
00:39:22
Speaker
And when it's just like a preference, it's not the same thing in reverse. So to say an opposite point that I made before, I i i don't think, in my heart of hearts, in my heart of hearts, I don't think, oh, isn't it good anymore?
00:39:37
Speaker
that people eat vegan food when they come around to mine. I absolutely don't think that. I do think, yeah, it's right. That's what I believe deep, deep down in my heart of hearts. But as a goodwill gesture, if someone's like, you want to take off your shoes when you come in? I'm like, oh, but whatever, my socks stink.
00:39:54
Speaker
ah I might do that because in my head, I think, well, that's a good compromise. It's not a good compromise if my socks do stink. Then that's a really bad thing. But there we go There we go.
00:40:06
Speaker
Potentially bringing animal products into the house as well, depending on what's living between your toes. as much
00:40:12
Speaker
Well, I mean, we've had a grand old conversation there. And Neil, goodness, I really hope that there's been some little nuggets of usefulness. in there. I mean, I'm definitely totally, I feel like we're doing some sort of agony aunt thing there if anyone wants to send in future scenarios or dilemmas.
00:40:31
Speaker
I mean, I will say I've been very disorganised. Neil asked this question in about January. So don't expect ah yeah an efficient response from us, but we do hope that has been useful.
00:40:42
Speaker
And in fact, ah I just wanted to say before we round off, you might have been listening to this conversation thinking, well, I have a couple of really good friends who occasionally bring an egg and cresp sandwich round. And actually, I don't want to tell them to stop doing that. That doesn't feel like that's the hill to die on.
00:40:59
Speaker
And whilst we can abhor animal exploitation and want it to stop, I don't think any of us are saying that this has to be the stance that everyone has to graduate to. And it's it's about weighing these things up, isn't it? And yes we've been discussing it in this way because Neil has said that is what he would like the case to be.
00:41:20
Speaker
in his home. But ah if that doesn't feel right for you yet in your home, or were there are other bigger priorities, then of course you should follow that. Says us three very important people whose opinion should be listened to all it.
00:41:35
Speaker
Anyway, anyway, we do hope you've enjoyed this episode. If you have, and you haven't already given us a review or shared us we'd love you to do so and to reaffirm that message.
00:41:46
Speaker
Here comes Kate and Dominic saying exactly the same as I've just said now, but with some music playing in the background. If you've enjoyed today's show, we'd love it if you could take just a few seconds to share it with someone else who you think might enjoy it too.
00:42:02
Speaker
We don't have a marketing team or a budget to spend on advertising, so your referrals are the best way of spreading the free Enough of the Falafel Joy further still. And if you haven't already, we'd be really grateful if you could leave us a rating on your podcast player.
00:42:18
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help. Thank you, Ant. Thank you, Paul. What a lovely, lovely podcast this has been. I've really enjoyed contributing to it.
00:42:38
Speaker
We love hearing from all of you great, great folks. So please do get in touch if you'd like to suggest something for a future one of these or comment on anything that we have brought up.
00:42:49
Speaker
The way to do it is to email us at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. dot calm So just to give you a heads up, the next Enough of the Falafel episode is coming out and will be available on Monday, the 16th of June. And it will feature Kate and Kate. Yes, that's two Kates.
00:43:11
Speaker
Yeah. And then Vegan Week. which is our usual weekly roundup of the news. That's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you, Dominic. Thank you, Paul, for your contributions. Thank you, Neil, for suggesting the topic.
00:43:23
Speaker
Thank you, everyone else, for listening to. I've been Paul, it says here, but I'm pretty sure I've been Anthony or possibly Kate. And you have been listening to Vegan Talk from the Enough of the Falafel Collecting.
00:43:41
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:43:56
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
00:44:22
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? twenty twenty three That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:44:43
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:44:57
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.