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194- Vegan Friendly...and the Gaza Conflict
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A rival to Happy Cow, possibly with added benefits: In the first half of this show Ant, Carlos & Kate discuss the Vegan Friendly UK platform (https://www.vegan-friendly.co.uk/) and the potential it offers; in the second half we also discuss a link between the organisation and the current Gaza conflict (more info here https://www.veganbeautygirl.co.uk/companies-vegans-may-want-to-boycott-for-palestine/) We look at how some in the vegan community are already responding to this link and discuss our own feelings on what course of action to take.
As ever, we love hearing your views on the topics under discussion (or anything else!) so do drop us your thoughts via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Talk podcast, we aim to develop listeners' (& our own) thoughts around key issues affecting veganism & the animal rights movement; giving our opinions, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we home in on one topic in particular and pick it apart in more detail. If you have a suggestion for a future show, do get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Kate, Carlos & Anthony
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Transcript
Introduction to Vegan Talk
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everybody, welcome to this episode of Vegan Talk. I'm Anthony and for this discussion I'm also joined by Carlos and by Kate.
Humor and Misconceptions about Veganism
00:00:10
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble.
00:00:14
Speaker
That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Protein! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? they They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
Podcast and Host Introductions
00:00:30
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick
00:00:38
Speaker
of social injustice has connection another that's just what people think vegans eat anyway as long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns you'll be all right does veganism give him superpowers
00:00:53
Speaker
no i cannot fly around the city i don't have laser vision and hello everyone and welcome to vegan talk My name is Carlos and thank you so much for being here.
00:01:04
Speaker
Hi, everybody. and It's Kate here with you. This is our vegan talk show.
Spotlight on Vegan Friendly Organization
00:01:10
Speaker
so there are lots of previous episodes of vegan talk available in our podcast back catalogue on all kinds of exciting topics. so go and have a rummage.
00:01:24
Speaker
Indeed, a rummage. Oh, I like that verb. Nice one, Kate. Yes, indeed. So on Vegan Talk, we will pick a topic and we will talk about it in some depth compared to our news show when we cover quite a few things over the course of an hour.
00:01:38
Speaker
Today, we are going to be talking about the organisation called Vegan Friendly. Put a link in the show notes. You can see their UK website.
00:01:49
Speaker
ah They are not just a UK specific organisation, but they are doing lots of work across the world and they've got a web platform too that we're gonna talk about.
Vegan Friendly and the Gaza Conflict
00:02:00
Speaker
Before we get into the conversation, we should say that whilst we were researching the organization, we found out some information relating to the current Gaza conflict that involves vegan friendly.
00:02:14
Speaker
Now we are going to address that but we're going to kind of compartmentalize things a little bit. So we're going to talk about vegan friendly, the organization and the animal rights, vegan work they're doing at the moment and then we will address the stuff we found whilst doing our research and our our feelings about that too. So just a little heads up there.
00:02:34
Speaker
Right. Carlos, I'm going to ask you, we we've discussed between us our prior knowledge of this organisation, and I reckon you might know bit more than me and
Vegan-Friendly Certification Explained
00:02:46
Speaker
Kate about it. So you are you happy to give listeners our initial summary of vegan friendly, what they do, what what they're there for?
00:02:54
Speaker
Yeah, sure. So they launched originally in Israel in 2012 as the Association for the Vegan Future. And it's been led since by Omri Paz, promoting veganism and animal rights, which is how they label themselves.
00:03:09
Speaker
Meanwhile, it's expanded internationally. And it's kind of brought its business model to the UK in 2020 and the USA 2022. Mostly what they do is business is a certification program, which labels businesses and products as vegan friendly.
00:03:27
Speaker
And that goes to restaurants, shops, cafes, and consumer goods that meet vegan criteria. So for example, in Israel, by 2022, they 10,000 products certified.
00:03:38
Speaker
eighteen hundred businesses ten thousand products that certified And this certification is based on ingredient verification and compliance insurance. And that business model has come to the UK and US and and USA also kind of doing the same sort of thing.
00:03:54
Speaker
ah Before we get kind of too excited about it, restaurants do not need to be fully vegan to receive the vegan-friendly label.
Debate: Non-Vegan Restaurants and Vegan Labels
00:04:01
Speaker
Effectively, what it means is that the business must offer a minimum number of clearly labeled vegan dishes.
00:04:07
Speaker
And these dishes do need to be vegan, so no animal-derived ingredients. And the business must also avoid cross-contamination during preparation as much as possible. and But the business can still serve non-vegan food.
00:04:21
Speaker
So for example, let's say a steakhouse that has a separate vegan menu that's substantial enough would be labeled vegan-friendly, which just saying this just seems outrageous, but let's continue.
00:04:33
Speaker
A cafe that has a few certified vegan dishes and proper labeling, also eligible. 100% vegan restaurant, definitely ah eligible. I mean, that's the whole point in my head. And and they to be fair, they do get featured more prominently on the vegan-friendly apps and other kind of web things they have.
00:04:51
Speaker
But for example, if vegan dishes are falsely labeled, it disqualifies them from being labeled vegan-friendly. If there's blatant disregard preventative
00:05:03
Speaker
friendly label and if the vegan options are too mil too minimal or tokenistic, and this might vary by region, they also are disqualified.
Vegan Certification Criteria in the UK
00:05:12
Speaker
So the idea of this label is basically to reward and encourage mainstream venues to expand access to plant-based foods.
00:05:21
Speaker
And for example, since you know we we do this podcast in u k the the UK certification for vegan friendly means that at least 25% the menu is vegan.
00:05:33
Speaker
Those vegan dishes have no animal products, there's no cross-contamination, and consumers are properly informed by clear labeling and allergen notices.
Vegan Friendly's Marketing and Collaborations
00:05:44
Speaker
Besides the labeling, they also do some events. So what's recognized I think pretty much as the world's largest vegan festival, which happens in Tel Aviv. So the 2023 one, for example, had 100,000 attendees called Vegan Fest. So they organized that as well.
00:06:00
Speaker
They do quite a lot of large scale conferences and grassroots activism projects. And they had like a few highlights. Like for example, they had Israel's first vegan TV commercial, which was seen by 33% of the population, which is a massive thing. Like if it was in the UK, that would mean an ad being seen by 22,000 people or so twenty two million people so So a massive amount.
00:06:24
Speaker
They also kind of work with food chains and manufacturers to add vegan options and put the seal in those vegan options. And they've partnered with ah major corporations like Unilever, Nestle, and so on to add plant-based products.
00:06:39
Speaker
So I guess they would you could say that their mission is pretty much popularizing veganism by making it accessible and visible visible in everyday life. and doing you know certification, media
Certification Models: Vegan Friendly vs. Happy Cow
00:06:50
Speaker
outreach, corporate advocacy, and festivals.
00:06:52
Speaker
They operated three countries. What's the third company? UK, Israel and? ah USA, the third country. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Got it. By that order of of kind of expansion.
00:07:04
Speaker
Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's brilliant. and Kate, can I ask, had you you heard about Vegan Friendly before we started researching for the pod? If I'm truly honest, no, not really. I have to say um i downloaded the app and I recognised the logo.
00:07:22
Speaker
and as having seen seen it in various places in London, I think. I'm not sure. but Certainly not around here. and so i the minute, I think they haven't got that many subscribers, have they, not compared certain other vegan apps that that we we know about, i.e. Happy Cow. Yeah, they they it kind of it seems like they're beginning to certify places in like some of the bigger city locations at least.
00:07:52
Speaker
I mean, you've you've mentioned Happy Cow. One of my first questions when looking at this was kind of like, don't we already have Happy Cow? But then i was kind of thinking, well, monopolies aren't good. You know, competition is good.
00:08:05
Speaker
Do we see a ah distinction between the two platforms here? I mean, the the the fact is Happy Cow has got a head start. Let's be frank. So, you know, that there are going to be cities, countries, as you've mentioned, Carlos, where Happy Cow has got coverage.
00:08:22
Speaker
of what's available and and vegan friendly does not. That said, that I would say the businesses that I clicked on, I just looked at my nearest city and I clicked on a non-vegan business, but that has vegan options.
00:08:39
Speaker
I thought it was very well laid out. And actually, I mean, Happy Cow is is very much reliant on users and what they submit. So if someone goes to a non-vegan place and says there's vegan options here but doesn't tell you what they are or or anything like that or there's no pictures that's not much use but they could do a very comprehensive thing whereas Vegan friendly, like there there was basically the whole menu of of vegan options was available. It was at Cream's, one of those ghastly dessert places. Sorry, that maybe that's snobbish of me. But like I knew exactly what I could get from that shop that was suitable for vegans, what to ask for.
00:09:17
Speaker
But I mean, are there other distinctions or differences that we can note between the two platforms? Is yeah is there a point to having You've hinted at it Yeah, because Happy Cow is a directory, it's not a certification body.
00:09:30
Speaker
And it's user driven. It's not centralized in that in that way. So you you you are at the mercy of other users to tell if a place has vegan options or doesn't have vegan options. you know It's not not nearly as rigorous as vegan friendly is in that sense.
00:09:46
Speaker
A user might say, yeah yeah, this place is vegan, but they have no idea what happens in the kitchen, for example. Whereas with a vegan-friendly label, well at least, you know, well, I mean, as far as you can know with the so with a professional certification, that they've they've gone into the kitchen and made sure that there's no cross-contamination, for example. Whereas, you know, if a shop opens down the roads, my local kebab suddenly says that they've got five vegan options i have to trust them that what happens in the kitchen is that doesn't have crosscontamination whereas
00:10:18
Speaker
that that would go on happy cow as vegan but winakjo go as happy cow on vegan friendly unless they do all the checks they do they do to to check. And I think you're also right that you know there's no benefit in having a monopoly, really.
00:10:33
Speaker
Although if there's like too many overlapping platforms, then people might not find either one of them or kind of not trust one of them because there's the other that says something different. But yeah ultimately, it's it's not a directory like Happy Call. It's like a branding advocacy and certification company.
00:10:50
Speaker
Although it does share kind of, for an end user, it does feel like the same sort of thing. but it's not.
The Term 'Vegan-Friendly': A Discussion
00:10:57
Speaker
It's interesting to see those distinctions actually. And it's, it's important, isn't it? I mean, I have to say props to happy cow. I've, I've had many a holiday that has been purely based research wise on what's popped up on that platform.
00:11:11
Speaker
And I mean, I don't know whether ah the the vegan friendly app would prevent this too, but I've gone to a place on happy cow and then it's been shut or it's changed what it does or or what have you.
00:11:24
Speaker
i mean, but the same thing could happen with this couldn't it i i suppose it was interesting to see like lots of brands are using this big brands non-vegan brands uh are using this you know we've got uh dominoes uh hp and i know hp don't do food but uh palladium like crocs like big companies are using this and yeah i like uk i had seen the symbol out there I saw a pair of trainers with their label on, not not printed on it, but like a little tag on it and and in the past. It's it's a thing that is an interesting name. i I mean, I wonder if we can discuss the name because vegan friendly is a quite a well-known phrase, isn't it?
00:12:16
Speaker
Like people, not non-vegan people will say to me, oh, yeah, you can eat It's vegan friendly. on the one hand, it's great. On another hand, I can get really irked by the phrase. I don't know whether either of you get irked by the phrase sometimes when you're told something's vegan friendly or it's like, oh, it's a vegan friendly pub. And it's like, oh, really? Because that bloke sat next to me in a steak sandwich. That's not the most vegan friendly thing I've ever experienced in my life.
00:12:41
Speaker
Like, what what do we think about the name? Yeah, um I don't really like it either. I ah feel like it's... I didn't say i didn't like it. I didn't say didn't like it. okay. it just makes me feel, yeah, oh, we're really friendly towards vegans, even though you're so annoying.
00:12:58
Speaker
and
00:13:01
Speaker
I don't know. don't know that i could come up with anything better either, though. I'm just having a little moan there. Well, it's tricky, isn't it? If if the purpose of of the of one of the goals is to draw attention to vegan options,
00:13:17
Speaker
provided by non-vegan companies, that there almost has to be some concession or some bridge, doesn't there, to to meet people where they are? It's a very it's a very non-confrontational name, isn't it?
00:13:29
Speaker
Because if, let's say if the name was Go Vegan or something like that, that kind of put a demand put a demand on everybody, you know, it was like saying, yeah, Go Vegan, yeah, you Go Vegan, not, okay, this this is okay, your vegan will be catered to.
00:13:45
Speaker
by this product or this product is allowed and we have brands like vegan founded and vegan owned don't we so if like if you're someone or you're you're in a particular frame of mind where it's like i want to support a business that's owned by a vegan that's founded by a vegan like there are certification schemes for that too i mean it's it's kind of very consumeristic i would say because it it kind of just you know this's doesn't talk about the animals or anything like that just say you know, this is a label, this is allowed.
00:14:17
Speaker
You can have this product, I guess. I mean, it's it's useful. I'm a label reader. I barely even notice if something says it's vegan-friendly or not a suitable for vegans. I just kind of just look at the label of the ingredients and things like that anyway.
00:14:31
Speaker
Although it's useful for stuff like shoes and so on because those, you often don't get them. quite very clearly on on what goes into them. Even though, you know, with a shoe, you can see if it's made of leather or synthetics, but you don't have know nothing about the glues used, for example.
00:14:46
Speaker
um So vegan-friendly label in that sense would be really ah helpful. I think it's a bit patronizing in a way. Yeah, it's vegan-friendly. You can have a falafel sandwich and we promise we don't fry the falafel um make the falaf we <unk> the falafel in the same place we fry the chicken and we'll give you a smile as well as we hand it to you. Yeah. but um But ah it's it's another one of those things that I say i i prefer a world in which this vegan-friendly label exists rather than one in which it doesn't exist.
00:15:21
Speaker
Because if nothing else, if this gets immensely popular, he will at least show to a lot of people that being vegan is not that hard. If they go a supermarket and all a sudden there's all these labels everywhere that says vegan-friendly or like everything, like like loads of vegan-friendly things, you know?
00:15:37
Speaker
They can go, oh, I never thought about it, but it's actually not that easy. Not that hard. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And it's it's interesting as well. Like, I'm glad you brought up the kind of consumerist or I think maybe the word you used was superficial.
00:15:49
Speaker
Like, On the one hand, I'm looking at that this and saying, like you say, there's nothing mentioned about animals here or anything like that. And surely the fact is that much of the world now is capitalist. That is the dominant language that people speak. It's consumerism.
00:16:09
Speaker
And so meeting people there, like if if all the vegans in the world are just completely anti-capitalist, refuse to engage with these things, which I completely sympathize with, I completely understand. And and much of my life, I try and live that way. I can't remember the last time I went to a shopping center.
00:16:27
Speaker
um But like, actually, if we are not at the party, if we're not at the table for the discussion, then there's a there's a lot of people, I believe anyway, with compassion in them waiting to be latently, you know, brought alive, catalyzed.
00:16:46
Speaker
and And if we're bringing the word vegan to them and saying, hey, look, you can do it. Hey, there's a thing here you can get. I wonder that there's almost part of me that thinks this is some of the most important advocacy that can be done is is trademarks like this, where you put a label on or directories like vegan friendly, happy cow and similar saying, look, here's how you can spend your money in a vegan way. You know, we've done episodes on and conscious consumerism and and and things like that. But it's how a lot of people live their life. And yeah, like if we ignore that, I don't i don't know whether we're doing the animals a disservice.
Vegan Advocacy in Capitalism
00:17:28
Speaker
i I think actually seeing that sort it's quite a kind of jolly kind of little logo, isn't it? And um and if and if I do say, for example, cafes, restaurants, do they have to have like 25% their they're offering yeah is that right yeah all right okay so um you know i guess there's gonna be a whole load of people going in there who are not vegan and at least the options are there and you've got this jolly little logo hey that's you know kind of it's a bit you know and people don't want to be confronted with the animal thing
00:18:06
Speaker
all the time do they if they're not vegan unfortunately they just don't they don't want that often when people are beginning to go then they'll look at the the animal stuff and they'll consider the animals and that'll you know um help them really transition but initially no we need to encourage people in and if they can go to places where you know it's it's kind of offered in a kind of friendly way, then hopefully that is going to encourage more people um into the into the movement.
00:18:38
Speaker
And I think they say they're a global non-profit, so I'm guessing that they plough... any profits that they do get into into doing things like the TV commercial and what have you. Because there was another one as well, wasn't there, and which was a ah campaign featuring an Israeli supermodel, Rotem Sailor, ah Mother's Testimony. Did you see that?
00:19:06
Speaker
It's on to YouTube, yeah. So, which I thought was quite, um well, compelling and um and I think... that had a massive impact on people as well.
00:19:19
Speaker
but Because saw the the this ah the this road term, she she'd just had her second child and she was um doing an advo ah ah advocating for a mother cow and the life of a mother cow and And and in she she wasn't speaking. She was holding up, just holding up signs, signs after signs. And that was quite, I thought that was quite powerful.
00:19:45
Speaker
So ah think, yeah, I like the fact that they seem to be ploughing their profits into things like that. And I guess veg fests and anything else. So, you know, they're perhaps that's where their kind of advocacy is, you know, and but in dealing with all that.
00:20:05
Speaker
So kind of enticing people in and then using profits for for positive vegan kind of outreach, perhaps. don't know, what do you think?
00:20:16
Speaker
it seems to be the way doesn't it and it's you know that that's always it's always nice to see things like that you you you see that on a sliding scale with vegan organizations don't you some of them will like as soon as you walk in i'm thinking of happy mackie and bright and as soon as you walk in they're like every meal you buy we'll plant a tree we'll send a child to school we'll liberate a small country um and others it can be a sort of tokenistic add-on other companies you're kind of like you don't seem to be doing anything but you're completely vegan so fine yeah you get a pass but it's um yeah there's just seem to be a an important part yeah i mean there's there's lots of vegan companies which are basically a product and you know they they put the money goes you know you buy the product it goes into stakeholders shareholders and you know profits expansion etc you know they're
00:21:12
Speaker
Basically, it's a product making money from vegans and people who want to try vegan options, but there's no activist push behind that. And from my research, I could not find anything that conflicted with this vision of of how vegan friendly presents itself.
00:21:28
Speaker
So I will trust them for now. Quick little last question for me. You've mentioned the logo a couple of times, Kate, with your graphic design background. Do we think it's a beetroot, a radish or some other vegetable?
00:21:40
Speaker
ah Let me have a look. It is. What is it? I reckon it's probably a so i think right i I think it's a radish. look i think the green bit on the top makes me think radish, but then the shape of the heart makes me think beetroot.
00:21:57
Speaker
Yeah, you do get radishes. You do get radishes, Connor. You get short, fat radishes and you get long, thin radishes. Or a strawberry. I mean, it could be a strawberry. Oh, it could be a strawberry. Yeah, the leaf's not ripe for strawberry, it could be a very leafy apple.
00:22:14
Speaker
well Well, listeners, it's very important that we yeah sort this out. So ah follow the link in the show notes. Have a little look at the Vegan Friendly label and let us know.
00:22:25
Speaker
what you think about the logo or anything else. Here's how to get in touch. To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
00:22:37
Speaker
We see ourselves as a collective. Our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:22:49
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. enough of the falafel at gmail dot com Okay, we have split our show in half, as we said we would.
Ethical Implications: Support for Israeli Defense Forces
00:23:00
Speaker
So as we were doing our research, we found some information about vegan friendly, obviously horrific things going on in Gaza at the moment, as well as other places in the world, but the related to the Gaza conflict, there are calls from a lot of people to boycott certain companies, certain organizations because of links to things that are going on.
00:23:27
Speaker
in Gaza, part of the conflict. I'm going to read from veganbeautygirl.co.uk, a blog that says ah companies vegans should boycott for Palestine. It was posted on the 3rd of December 2024. And ah the second organisation mentioned is Vegan Friendly. And Vegan Beauty Girl says the following, you may have seen the Vegan Friendly logo in vegan restaurants or on products around the world, including in London.
00:23:53
Speaker
This label is from an Israeli organization that certifies vegan-friendly restaurants and businesses, but behind the scenes, it has been feeding vegan soldiers in the IDF.
00:24:05
Speaker
Israeli, oh God, defense? Force. Force. Thank you, Carlos. Showing my ignorance there. The Israeli defense force. Soldiers who have gone on to kill over 40,000 Palestinians.
00:24:18
Speaker
A quote from the Times says, reads, an army fights on its stomach and all our soldiers must be healthy. That quote came from the CEO ah Vegan Friendly, which has been dispatching 2,000 meals per day.
00:24:32
Speaker
And Vegan Beauty Girl goes on to say, I hope vegan restaurants displaying this local logo will reconsider, especially if they understand the harm caused.
00:24:44
Speaker
Kate, I came to Carlos first in the first half of the show, so I'll come to you first now. Goodness. Lots to think about. Can I ask, like would you be happy sharing your initial response to to finding that out?
00:24:56
Speaker
Yeah, I was slightly horrified, I have to say, and also conflicted as well, I have to say, because on the one hand, you think, yay, did Feeding 200,000 vegan meals to anyone is a good thing.
00:25:14
Speaker
But two, for me, supporting, basically it is supporting the army in whatever way to do things. what they're doing in Gaza, and which, ah I allowed to say, genocide? Well, you're giving your opinion. You're giving your opinion, Kate. Like, you're just representing yourself. The line agrees with you.
00:25:33
Speaker
Pardon? There's, like, over 20, 30 organisations that agree with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, what's happening there is, you know, in my opinion, and...
00:25:44
Speaker
lot of other people's opinions, ah genocide and, you know, and any support, whether it's vegan meals or whatever, you know, i'm I'm doing my best to try not to support other companies that are implicated um in what's going on there.
00:26:00
Speaker
feel fully aware that there must be so many Israelis who are at their wits end as to know how to stop what's going on there, who do not agree with what's going on there. and But I'm thinking that supporting the soldiers in that way, whether it's vegan meals or meaty meals, whatever, I just don't think it's a good thing. And after what the CEO said about slavery,
00:26:26
Speaker
soldiers was it marching on their stomach or something stomachs or something i was like no you know it makes me think i want to delete my app i've just only just put it on a few days ago i think i take it off again already come on kate make your bloody mind up well that was just research for the show that was such just research for the show Well, I mean, we ah we've discussed on on this podcast before if veganism should be intersectional or not, and if veganism should extend the courtesy to humans as well, you know, bring them into the animal kingdom and consider their rights and their rights to live in this case.
00:27:07
Speaker
But without getting into, without even getting into that discussion, which I think to me is very clear cut, by the way, but it's a bit off topic, I would say that the Israeli army has raised Gaza including most of the animals that live there. even even Not even thinking about the loss of human life. If if you want to be like the most misentropic vegan ever and just say, I don't care about humans. I don't care humans being blown to bits.
00:27:30
Speaker
You know, if they're Palestinian or whatever you know ethnicity they are, I don't care. i just I just care about the animals. Well, even then, Gaza has been raised and, well, not completely devoid of life, but there are attempts to completely And that includes pets, that includes wildlife, that includes animals that were being raised for food anyway, but that were just destroyed by bombs everywhere. So I don't know how a vegan can support such a thing without without even going into the humans, the a massive loss of human life and human suffering that's going on there.
00:28:06
Speaker
So rightfully, vegan friendly has been put on the BDS list of companies that should be boycotted or that divested from. And well, it's up to our listeners what they make of this and where they sit on this conflict. But I would say that the loss of life in that stretch of land has been more than just humans as well.
00:28:29
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting. Because a bomb doesn't discriminate, right? if you if you i mean If you look at a picture of Gaza before, well, not just since since last year but you know from the years before If you look at what it looked like before and now, you know a bomb that destroys a city block does not discriminate doesn' doesn't kill just the humans there, for example.
00:28:50
Speaker
right you know the the waters that are contaminated by depleted uranium ah ammunition and debris from all the destruction, wildlife also drinks those waters and puddles and rivers and streams, right? so It's interesting to to think about boycotts and it's interesting to think about separating an organisation's different acts and saying, well, if I agree with one act but I don't agree with the other,
00:29:20
Speaker
do I have to eliminate any kind of support for it? And there are obvious allegories with veganism. mean, in in a sense, at its simplest term, veganism is ah a boycott of certain activities, certain products and services, or what have you.
Boycotting Companies with Ethical Conflicts
00:29:37
Speaker
But then, i mean, know many vegans who will say, i no, I won't buy from a company that also sells non-vegan products, but i don't actually know how manageable that is. I mean, for example, I i bought some Richmond meat-free sausages the other day. Well, i I'd much prefer to buy a completely vegan company's sausages, but actually the shop I was in at the time, it it was Richmond or nothing.
00:30:02
Speaker
So I went for that. Well, think of what Richmond advocates and profits from, you know, the billions of animals over the years that will have died and lined the pockets of that company and its shareholders.
00:30:17
Speaker
You know, i'm I'm saying that it's okay by buying their meat-free product, arguably. It's not quite the same logic as this, but you can see the comparison. So it's it's not a straightforward one. I've also, so scrolling down this this article from Vegan Beauty Girl, which we'll obviously put a link in the show notes for, it also calls for a boycott of Alpro, although the author um admits that she doesn't always manage to carry off that boycott because their parent company, Danone,
00:30:47
Speaker
invests millions into the Israeli food tech sector. Now, again, that that that's getting more removed, isn't it? I don't want to say tenuous because if people feel strongly about something, who am I to say that it's tenuous? But for me, there's a very big difference from saying, I'm not going to buy Alpro products because their parent company invests millions into food tech from this country compared to Vegan Friendly, where the CEO is literally...
00:31:15
Speaker
ah feeding soldiers. There's a difference, isn't there? And like you say, Carlos, like folk need to make their own mind up as, as is the case with
Personal Challenges in Ethical Veganism
00:31:23
Speaker
veganism. You know, we we want people to make their mind up a certain way so that animals don't continually get oppressed, but, but it's, it's people's individual choices.
00:31:32
Speaker
And we all know veganism is a compromise, a constant compromise, isn't it? So it's up to, it's up to you, the listener, to make your choice. I would say, i would say though that, um look, if this gets really popular in London where I live,
00:31:45
Speaker
It's going to be really difficult because I'll be outside the shop and oh I want to go in and have food. It's like, oh, they have a sticker. Does that mean I'm supporting Vegan Friendly by going into that shop, even though that shop is not Vegan Friendly itself?
00:31:56
Speaker
It's not the company Vegan Friendly. It's just somebody who paid Vegan Friendly to have that sticker. Oh my God, it's so confusing. So I would say i'm not going to use the app. Also because i don't I'm very lucky where I live, so I don't really need to.
00:32:10
Speaker
But well I certainly won't blame anybody who does it. Yeah. I wonder if in that specific example, Carlos, not and not that I want to just go around fixing everyone's issues, but actually the I wonder whether an organization, particularly if it's a vegan or veggie organization, like have been approached by Vegan Friendly to put that sticker in. Like they arguably don't need it if it's a vegan or veggie place. Like people know.
00:32:37
Speaker
um So actually just quietly having a word with with an owner or and and just saying, ah don't know if you know, but this organization is currently doing this. ah don't know whether that might make you reconsider displaying their sticker for the meantime.
00:32:50
Speaker
ah bit different if it's Domino's pizza or, you know, Cream's dessert parlor or whatever. Yeah, knowing how ah most Londoners feel about the current situation in Gaza, I don't think that sticker with stay up for long would it might quickly become unstuck it's just a very sad thing again on the one hand you think wow great this this organization's doing fantastic work you know it's obviously done amazingly well in israel in helping more people become vegan
00:33:25
Speaker
encouraging more more people to become vegan. But yeah, no, it's a red line for me. i just can't go there. it's I mean, ah trying to round things off and i'm I'm aware what I'm about to say might just open it back up again.
Impact of Conflict Proximity on Perceptions
00:33:41
Speaker
But I'm definitely not defending their action. I'm definitely not defending the conflict in Gaza.
00:33:48
Speaker
What I would say is if there was a war directly on my doorstep, I would be more likely to have blind spots to things where if I had the privilege of being in a peaceful place and not directly threatened by things, I might have more perspective and go, oh do you know what? That seems like an absolute atrocity there. If it's happening on my doorstep, I'm more likely to have the blinkers on and overlook things and I hope that the CEO of this organization is ah is a really lovely person. It seems like in many ways they are because of the work they're doing for animals and because they're directly or all very close to directly affected by this conflict. they They've got a big blind spot on on some of the horrors that are going on.
00:34:40
Speaker
I don't know. I'm not trying to rationalize or explain things. too much just well i suppose i am trying to explain things but you know i mean i'm not trying to justify it but perhaps that's what's happening in this instance and uh maybe a good old boycott will bring them to their senses who knows who knows right brilliant well thank you for for engaging in that discussion carlos and kate um and it's obviously very emotive stuff to be to be discussing and and we're not necessarily directly involved as the as the people and and beings are in Gaza at the moment. um Listeners, again, I know I did a jingle earlier, but um reminder, enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com is how to send us your thoughts on this or any other topic.
00:35:24
Speaker
Or could just say hello. we love a little emails just saying hello, just letting us know that you're out there. Otherwise, you're just numbers on our little dashboard where we see how many downloads we've had. So ah yeah, do get in touch if you would like.
00:35:37
Speaker
Our next episode of Enough of the Falafel is coming out from Monday. It will be a Vegan Week episode, which is our usual weekly roundup of the latest vegan and animal rights news.
00:35:51
Speaker
Anyway, that's enough of the falafel for this episode. Thank you so much, Kay. Thank you so much, Anthony, for all your contributions. And thanks to our lovely, lovely listeners.
00:36:02
Speaker
I've been Carlos, and you've been listening to Vegan Talk. from the Enough of the Falafel collective.
00:36:12
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
00:36:27
Speaker
And sometimes, if you're lucky, at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening, and see you next time.
00:36:53
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course...
00:37:14
Speaker
around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show.
00:37:28
Speaker
Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.