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169- Who indoctrinates worse than a vegan? EVERYONE ELSE!!!!!!
97 Plays14 days ago
See what happens when you let them darn carnists educate about animal agriculture?! This week Julie's pick for the week reports on the odious 'Lend a Lamb' scheme featured on BBC News, where schoolchildren learn about where their food comes from...apart from the quite essential final few steps. Julie & Ant examine this, as well as several more news stories from the last seven days or so- all of which have a vegan or animal rights slant.
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Enough of the Falafel is a community of people who love keeping on top of the latest news in the world of veganism & animal rights. With the Vegan Week podcast, we aim to keep listeners (& ourselves) informed & up-to-date with the latest developments that affect vegans & non-human animals; giving insight, whilst staying balanced; remaining true to our vegan ethics, whilst constantly seeking to grow & develop.
Each week we look through news stories from the past 7 days in the world of veganism & animal rights.
If you spot any news stories that might catch our fancy, or have an idea for a discussion topic, get in touch via enoughofthefalafel@gmail.com.
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This week's stories:
https://www.theanimalreader.com/2025/04/24/washington-bans-wild-animals-in-circus-joining-global-movement/
https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2025-04-29/controversial-chicken-farms-received-millions-in-government-subsidies#:~:text=In%20the%20Wye%20and%20Severn,in%20counties%20near%20the%20Wye.
https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2025/c-March/LSE-centre-animal-sentience
https://www.greenqueen.com.hk/plant-based-diet-pregnancy-midwives-study/ and https://bmcpregnancychildbirth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12884-025-07549-5
https://feeds.bbci.co.uk/news/articles/cgenv573z04o
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cj68glee30eo#:~:text=Plea%20to%20block%20wind%20farm%20over%20thousands%20of%20forecast%20bird%20deaths&text=Conservation%20groups%20are%20urging%20ministers,tens%20of%20thousands%20of%20seabirds.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g94k83889o#:~:text=Children%20are%20being%20given%20the,products%20like%20wool%20are%20produced.
https://www.peta.org/media/news-releases/coca-cola-shareholders-demand-bull-zero-sugar-to-stop-cruelty-to-bulls-improve-worker-welfare/
https://www.understandinganimalresearch.org.uk/news/mps-debate-use-of-dogs-in-research-government-maintains-stance
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Thanks everyone for listening; give us a rating and drop us a message to say "hi"; it'll make our day!
Julie & Ant
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Transcript
Introduction and Julie's Return
00:00:00
Speaker
Hello everyone, it's vegan news time. This is the place to be if you want to hear it. I'm Anthony, joining me for this episode is Julie, but that is enough of the falafel. It's time for Vegan Week.
Vegan Stereotypes and Superpowers
00:00:14
Speaker
So I think vegans go looking for trouble even when they're not looking for trouble. That's not what butter's used for. Brrr! Take your lab-grown meat elsewhere. We're not doing that in the state of Florida. What about your protein and what about your iron levels? Should I call the media and say, hi, sorry? They're arguing like, oh, poor woe is me.
00:00:33
Speaker
Hang on a minute. You always pick the five.
00:00:41
Speaker
of social injustice has connection with another. That's just what people think vegans eat anyway. As long as you didn't get the wee brunions with the horns, you'll be all right. Does veganism give him superpowers?
00:00:56
Speaker
I cannot fly around the city. I don't have laser vision.
Podcast Format and Vegan News Stories
00:01:00
Speaker
Hello, so everybody. it is Julie here, back after a wee bit of time away from the podcast, so it's lovely to be back.
00:01:10
Speaker
Welcome, everybody, and thank you very much for listening. um I'm so happy Julie is back with us. So, so happy. ah Hello, everyone. Now, I kind of mentioned it at the very top, but this is our new show. We do also do like ah more of a chat show, but this is the show where we focus on the news. We'll give you about eight or nine stories from the week's vegan and animal rights news for you to digest. But that is enough of the falafel. Let's hear what has been going on in the news this week.
Banning Wild Animals in Circuses
00:01:42
Speaker
For more details on the upcoming news stories, including links to our original source material, check out our show notes for this episode, available on your podcast player.
00:01:56
Speaker
OK, our first story from the week's news comes from the US of A, specifically from the state of Washington, who have passed a new law banning the use of wild animals in the circus. Now, we know lots of you listen for from different places around the world, and it might be that where you live, wild animals have already been banned in circuses. And in fact, this news story points out many of the countries all across the world where that is the case But in the US, things are a little behind, we could argue. um Washington becomes the 12th state in the country to stop the use of wild animals in circus acts.
00:02:36
Speaker
um This is a law known as SB5065. It bans performances using elephants, big cats, bears and non-eventory. human primates and it will take effect in 90 days time and that is when the story was reported on April the 24th so the clock's ticking Julie for these ah people who have been exploiting animals for profit to get in line this is a good news story to start the show off I think Yes, it is. And for everybody, if there is anybody, in fact, from Washington or that area of the world listening, very well done. I know it sounds like, oh, well, this is happening in 90 days time and that perhaps this legislation has, you know, come through really fast.
00:03:19
Speaker
It hasn't. It took absolutely years of tireless campaigning for this to happen. So huge, huge well done. 12 states in the US now seeing the light when it comes to the treatment of wild animals and circuses.
00:03:34
Speaker
38 states to go, sadly. But it is part of a growing international movement. Some circuses sadly will continue to use wild animals as we've said and some will continue to use you know horses and ponies and dogs and what are seen as domestic animals and really it would be nice if circuses just got rid of animals altogether.
00:04:00
Speaker
There is and there are i should say a number of circuses apparently one in particular in Germany who have gone down the unusual route of replacing live wild animals in their performances with holograms and i tried to keep an open in mind about this so I looked them up and I watched a performance and everything and I'm sorry it's not for me personally and i think from a vegan point of view it's not doing anything for the argument
00:04:37
Speaker
that actually animals are not ours to exploit. I think if something is just distasteful and not wanted and outdated and we've moved on from it and we recognise that,
00:04:52
Speaker
then the fact that it's a hologram of such a thing does not make it acceptable. So circuses used to have freak, what they called freak shows in them, and people rightly with disabilities now wouldn't stand for that, you know, being made a spectacle of.
00:05:09
Speaker
So we don't go about with holograms of people who are differently abled or of restricted growth or whatever, because that would be just as distasteful. Well... You know, I know it's not the exact same thing, performing animals, but let's, I think, try and wean ourselves off from the automatic assumption that it's fine to do that kind of stuff with animals um and just try and replace it with human endeavour where are possible, ah make it about people.
00:05:40
Speaker
im That would be my take on Yeah, I would have thought it... it it doesn't take much different amount of time or effort to train a human to be good at things that can wow an audience compared with an
Midwives and Vegan Diets During Pregnancy
00:05:54
Speaker
animal. Because, I mean, if you're if you're training ah an animal to do stuff at a circus, like a lot of time and energy and money needs to go into that.
00:06:03
Speaker
Whereas, like, surely the same amount of time and energy a ah human can just get really good at juggling and learn the trapeze and stuff like that, can't they? You know, it's possible. Yeah. Come on, yeah pull your finger out, people. learn Learn some skills and perform for us.
00:06:18
Speaker
So Ant's first story might be a little bit outside his comfort zone. This is news from the BMC Pregnancy and Childbirth Journal. I don't think we've had them on the show before. I'm not sure.
00:06:33
Speaker
Where a study has shown that while most midwives have a positive attitude towards plant-based pregnancies, Many feel unprepared to provide advice to these patients due to a lack of time or because they feel unqualified to do so.
00:06:54
Speaker
Yeah, it's interesting that because I mean, that that was my first feeling when when commenting on this story was, well, actually, am I qualified to give an opinion here? is not Not only am I not going to give birth to a child, but I'm you know i'm not a parent, but that seems to almost be midwives biggest hang up for giving advice on plant based nutrition, because I'm going to presume that most midwives don't liver a vegan lifestyle they don't follow a plant-based diet themselves and that seems to be one of many things that is holding them back the the study was conducted in New Zealand 133 midwives
00:07:33
Speaker
midwives were were interviewed and almost all of them felt equipped to give their patients advice on general nutrition which I thought was interesting because it it it could just be a sort of contemporary thing of like well it's not for me to say what you should do you know that's increasingly becoming a sort of postmodern 21st century thing to do.
00:07:54
Speaker
Even if it's your job to give advice, you sort of say, oh, no, I don't know if I should. But obviously, that level of preparedness drops for plant-based nutrition because folk just aren't as educated on it. They don't have such an experience on it. So 72%.
00:08:07
Speaker
seventy two percent I don't know about you, Julie, but in a sense, that surprised me that that was quite high. You know, that's nearly three quarters of midwives saying, yeah, I can give out advice based on plant-based nutrition.
00:08:19
Speaker
Yeah. What I would like to say actually is just shout out to all the women out there and their husband's partners who are being vegan, plant-based and bringing beautiful little, planty, fed babies into the world.
00:08:39
Speaker
I just think that's great. Good on you. Never mind. You probably don't need the advice from the midwives anyway. You're probably just fine the way you are. Just carry on doing what you're doing.
00:08:51
Speaker
You know, you're only pregnant, you're not ill. But yeah, just shout out to the people who are doing it anyway. Brilliant. Yeah, absolutely. And they they're real trailblazers in a world where Veganism is unusual statistically and even even more so for those um who who are pregnant doing so and and raising children.
00:09:10
Speaker
um And ah I do think this is I'm going to take the positives from this story because actually there were there were stats as well in terms of midwives attitudes towards these things. And it said less than 1% of them encourage pregnant families two add animal proteins to their diets. Now, obviously, that's not that's not a good thing that that's happening to that 1%. But again, that surprised me that that was that low.
00:09:37
Speaker
I would have thought there would be more people going, you should, you know, have you thought about having some fish or or whatever. So I think this this shows a changing tide in things. And as you say, Julie, the more the more families who are doing this, providing living, breathing examples that this can be done, it's normal, it's fine.
00:09:56
Speaker
And yeah, follow those maternal instincts because they're strong and they've seen us through 10,000 plus years, haven't they? So they've they've got be doing something right, I would have thought.
Pollution and Misleading Farming Subsidies
00:10:07
Speaker
Let's move on to our next story then. this one um This one made my heart skip a beat because it's ah it's actually based about four or five miles away from where I'm buying a house and I didn't realise that this was going on in the air and I went, oh my God.
00:10:22
Speaker
um So yeah, that's a whole separate issue. But this comes to us from the Bureau of Investigative Journalism. That is a place i want to work. That just sounds really damn cool, doesn't it?
00:10:33
Speaker
They've reported this week as part of the whole campaign around, well against I suppose, the pollution that is going on in the River Wye, in England and the the Welsh border area. They've revealed that the UK government funnelled millions of pounds in taxpayers' money to intensive poultry farmers near the Wye and River Severn.
00:10:58
Speaker
Despite the industry's links to spiralling water and air pollution in the region. At least 14 million pounds of public funds was paid out over a three-year period to farm operators in the counties surrounding the river. So that's Herefordshire, Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire and Powis.
00:11:18
Speaker
Many of the recipients operate so-called mega farms, which are these huge units that can hold upwards of a million birds. That's at one time, bearing in mind that these birds will often only live a month you know, that's an awful lot of death going on on to some poor people's doorsteps and and the environment. And it's obviously affecting the nearby rivers as well.
00:11:41
Speaker
Julie, it's my first instinct here is that it it's great that this campaign is having so much momentum. There's so much getting reported about it. And it looks like they're having some setbacks.
00:11:54
Speaker
as well in that the council approved planning permission for this latest mega farm but there's there's a lot of people opposing this aren't there yeah it's a great headline that this publication have come up with and anything that highlights the case ah against factory farming is a good thing absolutely The reality, though, is that behind the headline, and the fact of the matter is that a fair percentage of these subsidies were actually for other parts of that farm's work, not for the actual factory farming part of it. Because a lot of subsidies for farmers are to do with acreage and these are getting phased out, but they're still in existence, where it's to do with the land that you're using and indoor, obviously, is not really applicable in that case.
00:12:44
Speaker
But any publicity is bad publicity, is good publicity in this case. So liking that, I also really laughed, and I like to get a laugh, at the quote from the National Farmers Union spokesperson. Did you see him?
00:13:03
Speaker
No, go on. Britain's farmers want to further improve the health of our rivers. and recognise their businesses have a major role to play, particularly those in sensitive catchments, further improve the health of our rivers. Is that why they're pouring tons of shit in them every single day? Do they think they're improving the health of our rivers?
00:13:29
Speaker
That's what you think of when you think of farmer, isn't it? It's yeah a river justice. that's And the person went on to say that there has been progress on waste management and fertiliser, but more needs to be done.
00:13:43
Speaker
Surprise, surprise. And that this requires government funding. does it actually require government funding or does it actually require them just to stop putting all their shit in the river?
00:13:57
Speaker
Does that need government funding? Do they just need to perhaps change the way they're working and what they're doing to earn their living? Who am I to say? I do like your point though, Julie, that that actually we we have to be genuine with with the arguments we're using in in our advocacy and and it's all well and good coming up with ah with a headline that you know further stokes the fire or whatever. But people aren't daft, and particularly the people that you're opposing have got a vested interest to to sort of fight back. And so actually, if you know that there's quite shallow or misleading reasons behind the headline, people are going to poke holes in that, and that can i can undermine your argument, really, can't it?
00:14:40
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, let's hope the opposition continues. And despite, like say, these setbacks of megafarms being proved that people can change their mind. There's still time. There's still
Activism and Animal Welfare
00:14:51
Speaker
time.
00:14:51
Speaker
Well, on to a story concerning a man who's no friend of a farmer. We've got news that following footage being posted by activist Joey Carbstrong, an abattoir in Worcestershire, we're still in that part of the world, has had its license revoked following an investigation into animal welfare breaches by the Food Standards Agency.
00:15:16
Speaker
the given what goes on in a slaughterhouse I am horrified to think what an animal welfare breach is given that they're there to be killed against their will what you know what on earth are they doing in there that is even worse than that but aunt tell us more Yeah, well, I looked quite extensively into this because there's, I mean, Joey has released a video in the last few days in response to this news, but also there's the original sort of expose video that's about a month old at this stage. And if I, there's lots to say about this story.
00:15:53
Speaker
If I tell you that the main picture on the BBC News story, if you follow the link in the show notes, was, has got some local residents protesting on the street and they are all white people.
00:16:04
Speaker
And if I tell you that this is a halal slaughterhouse, then I think that maybe has something to to do with perhaps why this has been accelerated a bit more in terms of um You know, cultural biases and things like that. Please don't misunderstand me.
00:16:19
Speaker
What is going on in that slaughterhouse, as with any slaughterhouse, is horrific. It's a really interesting interview that Joey does with the guy who is he's like the ah FSA link.
00:16:34
Speaker
um or the person responsible, basically, for animal welfare in this very small, by some standards, abattoir. And that's part of one of the reasons why the guy says that's why he works there, that it's, you know, he thinks that if things are done small, they can be done properly and blah, blah, blah. But it's, i mean, it's obviously not the case. You know, horrific things are going on there.
00:16:57
Speaker
like I say, as there are in any abattoir. And good on the activists for getting this footage. Good on Joey for using his platform to spread it out there. And it's it's led to a license being revoked. like That's brilliant, isn't it?
00:17:12
Speaker
That is absolutely brilliant. yeah Like I say, there's part of me that's slightly uncomfortable because I i wonder... how quickly this would have happened if it wasn't a person with brown skin doing doing things in a certain way. But that's just speculation.
00:17:28
Speaker
That's just speculation. And, you know, it it shows that that this activism works. it You know, the the dominoes are going to fall quicker in some instances than others, but they certainly won't fall unless we're doing this work. You know, if if vegans are advocating for animals, who's going to?
00:17:47
Speaker
You know, so fantastic work for all those guys doing this. um and And you have the usual response saying, oh, we have zero tolerance for these things. You know, that that this is this is disgusting. Of course, we're shutting this down. Of course, we're revoking these licenses. We're going to fully investigate um as they always do.
00:18:06
Speaker
But a win is a win is a win, as they say. OK, on to our next
Animal Sentience and Research Ethics
00:18:12
Speaker
story. I'm very intrigued to hear what Julie has got to say about this one, because I certainly had some mixed thoughts about it. We're getting some news from some different sources this week. This one comes to us from the London School of Economics and Political Science.
00:18:27
Speaker
and they are announcing a new centre to, quote, study animal sentience. They say, our understanding of animal feelings and the impact of human actions, policies and behaviour on them will be transformed through a new centre being launched at the London School of Economics and Political Science.
00:18:48
Speaker
They say this has been made possible through a multi-year commitment of £4 million, pounds from the Jeremy Collar Foundation. It's going to develop new approaches to studying the feelings of other animals scientifically and use the emerging science of animal sentience is to design better policies, laws and ways of caring for other animals.
00:19:10
Speaker
Julie, do you think this is as straightforward as saying, hooray, hooray, animal sentience is being recognised and being invested in? um No, exactly. I think we'd already got there with animal sentience. So what would say first off is Jeremy Collar, for all I can find on him, is not vegan, nor is he an animal rights activist. He is a vegetarian. He's a long-term vegetarian who supports farming, small scale. you know He wants to end factory farming,
00:19:46
Speaker
great but he's not clear from what I can see on what he proposes for the alternative and in the meantime he seems to be quite a compassionate world farming baby steps oh let's just use antibiotics on these poor creatures a bit more appropriately and you know all that so I'm never gonna love him altogether for that And it's a bit frustrating, you know, when people are kind of the close enemy like that. They've got so much power at their fingertips. hes
00:20:18
Speaker
one ah He's the founder of the fastest growing investment company in the world and all the rest of it. And yet he's putting his money into proving that antibiotic use at the moment inappropriate and we could be doing it a bit better. And you think, no, just stop the whole movement.
00:20:36
Speaker
Right, you know, wholesale. £4 million pounds doesn't sound like a lot of money to me for what he's talking about doing. is a bit contradictory to me. He says he wants to end factory farming. He's been on that since 2015. haven't haven't actually seen any i hadn't heard of him till this story came out given you know how supposedly famous he is and much money he's got you know ritualist person all the rest of it i don't know i don't know what he's the man's achieve maybe it's tons he's got loads of money but he says the best way to make the argument is the economic and environmental art way specifically not the moral one and yet this sent animal sentience business
00:21:21
Speaker
Yeah, that seems completely contradictory, doesn't it? Why into that? It's a given. But also my own simplistic yokel thoughts on it are that animals should not need to prove their sentience, their intelligence, their similarity to blooming toddler humans of a specific age or their ability to play little balls or whatever to have the right to live their natural lives as far and free from human interference as is possible, which is totally free of it as far as I'm concerned. So to my mind, if we're going to research anything, we should research our own species.
00:22:05
Speaker
with their consent of course which animals can't give you know and we should be looking at working on our own ways of living that don't involve exploiting animals and medical research would be a fantastic place to start I think Jeremy's very keen on artificial intelligence and what this has to offer in terms of you know our relationship with animals and well, what about artificial intelligence and medical advances or, you know, things like that.
00:22:38
Speaker
That's a great, if if he's really into all that stuff, then, you know, how about that? I would say, I don't, I'm not sure what this research into animal sentience is going to bring about or what it's really going to achieve for animals.
00:22:53
Speaker
It'll be jobs for people and it will you know get him well known and awards for things but in terms of actual outcomes for animals I'm not sure well it's going to provide to be honest with you but I will try don't sound like doing but keep an open mind yeah yeah yeah well like like you say perhaps the route to go down is to to investigate humans and and in fact on this press release page there is a quote from him which opens with we are a speciesist species like surely that's the thing to look into and to to understand why why it is you know why do the cogs turn in that particular direction one of his three aims is that definitely is that but i think just all of his aims should be geared that way but he mentions three aims for his
00:23:44
Speaker
sainter and one of them the third one was about how do we close the gap he says this cliche about we're a nation of animal lovers and yet you know look at the way we treat animals how do we close that gap what's going on what's the disconnect and all the rest of it but while parading his own disconnect because if he's then including himself as a citizen of the UK and You know, HMRC arguing that one or so somebody is because of his dad's lineage. But anyway, he's a member of the UK himself. So he counts himself in that.
00:24:20
Speaker
And yet here he is just talking about a slightly smaller scale way of raising animals and killing them to exploit them. You know what I mean? he's showing that disconnect while he's talking about it. It's just, it's too meta for words in places. But I'd love to have a conversation directly with that man. He's got so much money money and influence in the trillions.
00:24:43
Speaker
And yet he could be really changing the game for animals if he
Wind Farm Environmental Trade-offs
00:24:49
Speaker
tried. I'm sure he could. don't know what this is going to do for them. But we'll wait and see. wait and see how his money has been invested and what it yields.
00:24:59
Speaker
Watch this space. So, on to last story for this part of the show. Five charities led by RSPB Scotland are urging ministers to reject plans for an offshore wind farm, which the developer predicts will kill tens of thousands of seabirds.
00:25:20
Speaker
They've written to the First Minister of Scotland to argue that approving Berwick Bank in the Firth of Forth, very close to where I am right now, would undermine efforts to protect nature.
00:25:33
Speaker
Oh yeah, that's their main priority, isn't it Well, I'm glad you teed me up with that little intro because I was very worried about having to say the Firth of Forth and Berwick Bank in quick succession because I thought that was going to trick me up.
00:25:47
Speaker
Interestingly, the thing that jumped out at me with this story was some the SSE, the energy company themselves, they did an impact assessment as part of their plans.
00:26:01
Speaker
And they themselves said that over the projected 35 lifespan of the development, 35-year lifespan, they expected more than 31,000 bird collisions over this period. So they themselves are saying, yeah, we reckon over 30,000 birds are going to hit this this thing. You go, what?
00:26:25
Speaker
That's just mad, isn't it? That you put forward a plan that involved that and and then just carried on with the plan. And and they're they're talking with some real urgency. I mean, there is a quote towards the end of the article from the project director, Alex Meredith, who's basically saying, Berwick Bank has now been in planning for almost 30 months. like We must move forward urgently. Never never mind these birds or whatever. We need to deliver for for stakeholders and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, it's it's a real demonstrative example of capitalism and and just how things can be
00:26:59
Speaker
put by the wayside. So good on this letter being written and it's made its way into the BBC news page pointing out the the issues here.
00:27:10
Speaker
It also put me in mind of, this is a bizarre reference, but ah the last Football World Cup, England's manager, the men's team I should say, got very cross because journalists were saying, well you shouldn't drop this player, you shouldn't drop this player, why aren't you picking this player? And he was saying, well well who should I swap them with? You can't just say that's not a good decision without providing an alternative. And I did think about that for this because of of course, it's it's awful that and and highly undesirable for wild free birds to be colliding with a giant wind farm.
00:27:47
Speaker
That's not great. And we also need environmentally conscious ways of of powering these things. And I don't know a great deal. I don't know whether you do, Julie. I don't know a great deal about wind turbines and alternative energy. I don't know whether there's a way of doing things like this that that don't cause such harm to to animals. It looks like in the article that that there is an alternative proposed that's sort of having a floating wind farm rather than these static wind turbines.
00:28:20
Speaker
um And it seemed like the main objection to that was that, well, the static ones, the plans are already quite a long way down the road, so we shouldn't backtrack. But Yeah, any kind of any kind of development where the developers themselves are saying, yeah, it's probably going to kill about 30,000 birds. You're going to go, what?
00:28:38
Speaker
i Oh, I know, I know, I shouldn't laugh. But I mean, I don't know if you look into all kinds of things that we don't even question in life that go up in our built environment, you know, what deaths they're causing across the board themselves. I don't know what the numbers would stack up like at all.
00:28:59
Speaker
I suspect that there are some people who are hoping to stall this and using these poor birds' deaths as an excuse.
00:29:10
Speaker
and But actually, there's some human interest at stake here rather than worrying about birds, to be honest with you. Our SPB will happily kill thousands of birds.
00:29:22
Speaker
um but You know i mean? When it suits them, if they're of a particular breed or whatever, they will happily endorse their killing. So they're not squeaky clean in their attitude to bird life.
00:29:36
Speaker
despite their name so i you know it's hard to know what the agenda really is sometimes with these things well well again just be interesting to to see how this one pans out but yeah i don't think birds welfare is actually at the bottom of this wholly myself Sadly not. Sadly not. But um like you say, we'll watch this space on how that develops.
Loan a Lamb Scheme and Ethical Concerns
00:30:01
Speaker
Well, that is the end of our first part of the show. After this short break, Julie and I are going to share our sort of pick of the week, the the story that each of us found the most interesting. And um they're both covering arguably quite odious organisations. One is relatively small and the other one is very, very, very big.
00:30:31
Speaker
Julie, do you want to go first with your pick for the week? you' You've got the slightly smaller scale organisation that's doing things that aren't really what we would like to see as vegans and people that care about animals.
00:30:44
Speaker
Yes, indeed. i was I was kind of on the brink of this becoming Cry of the Week, actually, but I didn't cry because I watched a video of this.
00:30:56
Speaker
and Just to put out your kind of like, what? What are you going to talk about? It's called, it's from BBC News South East and it's called The Loan Alarm Scheme.
00:31:08
Speaker
And it was invented, or it is invented, it's still going on, by the South of England Agricultural Society. And it purports to educate children about how food and animal products like wool are produced and give them a hands-on experience of caring for animals.
00:31:34
Speaker
It's not a new thing. Do you know what? It's been going for four blooming years already. And the terrifying fact is that it's reached more than three and a half thousand impressionable young school children across 10 primary schools already.
00:31:53
Speaker
oh So, you know, I think as vegans, we're told we need to be careful about not pushing children into veganism and to you know, being really invested in animal rights and things and people are sensitive about that.
00:32:08
Speaker
Well, this is brainwashing of a different kind and misinformation. So some people might be listening to this and just think, oh But the kiddies, you know, they will love to pat the wee wooly lambs and, you know, what? It's not doing any harm, you know, even if they don't quite learn the full story. It's just lovely and it's a lovely experience for them. Well, it's not a lovely experience both ways. I can assure you i have seen footage of a couple of different, you know, projects that
00:32:42
Speaker
So this is the scene, this is what the video will show you if you watch the... And this isn't a behind the scenes expose, this is on the news. This is what they're showing people as a look how wonderful this is.
00:32:53
Speaker
But you will have ewe and either one or two lambs that are hers with her. in a very small pen on a playground playing field and they're penned there for a week that's how long the loan lasts so they're in this tiny space when sheep need to wander about and lambs need to run about They're in this tiny space for a week.
00:33:21
Speaker
And the problem I have with all of this, the main thing is sheep are herd animals. And to separate a sheep from its flock like that is an extremely insensitive and, you know, something you would avoid unless it was really ill and had something contagious.
00:33:38
Speaker
when ewe has just given birth like that she's extremely vulnerable mentally and physically she's just been through a lot to then move her to somewhere unfamiliar and with her wee baby lambs they're vulnerable as well and they need to be with other lambs to learn and play and socialize and all the rest of it So while we are supposedly giving these human little ones an education, we're actually depriving the lambs of the contact and the social interaction that they need to develop and grow.
00:34:14
Speaker
The grass that these animals are on is, like I said, it's a playing field. It's not grazing grass. It's not, you know i mean? It's minging. It's probably had...
00:34:25
Speaker
dogs scrapping on it and everything like that and it's not it's not healthy grass for them to eat so I did see in one video they had given the sheep some hay but again you know at this time of year it should be grass she's eating you know so that's horrible and obviously they're giving these animals food because they want to give the children the experience of feeding these animals but then I am guessing that in a lot of cases they're prioritizing giving the children the experience of feeding the animals over what their nutritional needs really really are but the stress that they must be giving that you having so many strange know what my sheep are like um if it's if you're listeners i should say don't already know you know i do have some rehomed rescued sheep in my life that i care for
00:35:14
Speaker
I know how stressed they are by people they do not know coming into their space. You know, to think of a ewe who's recently given birth in a new place herself and then with strangers constantly poking in her.
00:35:29
Speaker
And my worry is as well that when these animals are not being supervised by a teacher, you know, when the children are there, How are they protected from members of the public? They're just in a wee pen, you know, in a town somewhere.
00:35:44
Speaker
Yeah, I just, it doesn't bear thinking about. They're so, so vulnerable. That's what really nearly made me cry. I think it really is bad because we aren't teaching children anything apart from how to swallow a lot of lies about the agriculture industry and ah get it I mean sheep are absolutely beautiful beings to be in the presence of they are I mean I am sad that more people don't have the experience of how gracious and wonderful their presence is and how great it is to be around them
00:36:20
Speaker
But if if people want children to experience a really genuine connection with animals like sheep, please take them to an animal sanctuary where the animals there are in their own space. So they're in familiar surroundings already and they're used to different people, you know, caring for them, much less stressful.
00:36:41
Speaker
And show them footage of sheep being shorn if you want to educate them about how wool is produced because you won't do that watching them standing in a pen. See what you they feel like when they've seen that, you know, um large-scale sheep shearers. That footage makes me cry.
00:36:57
Speaker
And show them sheep being slaughtered as well, footage. You don't have to take them into an actual abattoir. And show them the ears getting tagged, which ah they won't be seeing on Lona Lamb.
00:37:09
Speaker
And their lambs getting castrated and their tails getting docked. And if they've got entropion, show them their eyelids getting stapled without any anaesthetic.
00:37:20
Speaker
Show them that. That's the reality. And then let them make their choices about do they want to, you know, engage with that and and have lamb for their tea or whatever.
00:37:32
Speaker
But yeah, that's what I would do. I've slain that project now, I know, but there you go. but Well, it's it's hideous. It's hideous, isn't it? it's it's Of course, animal agriculture is not for the benefit of the animal, but this takes it to a whole other degree because that... you know that those sheep are going to meet the same end as all sheep in animal ag but they've got this awful stint inside a inside a primary school which is bad enough for children in my opinion you know let alone ah a poor animal um and i don't know whether the same animal will will go on a tour and end up in several places but i i assume that this will happen more than once to an animal
00:38:15
Speaker
I did think, of obviously I'm not advocating this scheme, I reckon this will create a few vegans amongst those children. Maybe not initially, but when when we hear people's accounts of their vegan journey, very often it is a conscientious person who has a an encounter with an animal and it gets the cogs turning and it makes them think, hang on, what's going on? Now, if I wouldn't be saying this, if of this loner lamb was always going to like year one children where they're sort of five, six years old. But that I mean, I know it could be a variety of age groups, but on on this but particular page on the BBC website, it is a year six teacher. that's That's the age that I taught at when I taught in a mainstream primary school.
00:39:04
Speaker
um and they're 10, 11 years old, like they can think that, you know, they are sharp kids at that age and they know it's not just a fluffy creature that like, oh, it just lives its life. It's like a dog and, it you know, we look after it until it just dies naturally.
00:39:19
Speaker
There are going to be bright kids there. not them Not the majority because the majority will go along with what is being taught. And if the slaughter and all of that is not being taught, they won't think about it.
00:39:31
Speaker
but they'll be bright, thoughtful, reflective, conscientious children... who, okay, they only meet the animal for a week, but they will form a bond, they'll connect with it, and they will know that actually it's it's there because it ends up on someone's dinner plate. And I i think that will make an impact.
00:39:49
Speaker
Like you say, Julie. hope you're right. I hope you're right The video I saw that made me nearly cry, though, was wee tiny kiddies that were so young they could hardly talk. Yeah, they were. And they were just like, when they were asked what their favourite bit was, you know,
00:40:02
Speaker
oh you know they're so soft and you they were just focused on the they liked feeding them and cuddling them you know like what we kiddies are like and I just thought oh my goodness you know my heart is breaking for you all.
00:40:15
Speaker
Though it's a generalization at that age they're not going to necessarily reflect over a series of days and weeks of oh wonder about that sheep that we met like but Whereas if they're introduced, you know, 9, 10, 11 years old, they're more likely to be able to think in that slightly more meta abstract way. But but obviously, like you say, the much better way is to to educate is to actually actually educate about these things and and the teacher was in this article um that we've got the link for in the show notes was saying about the different lessons that that this sparked in terms of like oh we calculate the size of pens and whatever and i was like what about calories what about calories from when it's killed how many meals it will provide
00:41:01
Speaker
Like, come on. Like, if you're going to do it, do it properly. That's obviously too much to ask. Calculate the size of pain you need, for goodness sake. Do you know i mean? I know that just broke my heart.
00:41:14
Speaker
Well, any teachers listening, I'm available. You want your kiddies to have a conversation about sheep? I'll talk about sheep all day long. Yeah,
00:41:27
Speaker
bring it on.
PETA vs. Coca-Cola and Animal Transport
00:41:28
Speaker
we So, Anthony, what story has caught your attention this week, please? Well, it is a press release from PETA, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and it got me thinking in all sorts of ways. The initial hook was the fact that it was covering something that I didn't know went on, and PETA are very good at that. they will They will cover practices that go on, often in parts of the world that you do not live in or or not familiar with yourself and they will shine a light in a practice that you didn't know happened. So in this specific example, um they're looking at India, I think specifically, where bulls are being used um as transport basically for sugar cane and Coca-Cola are generally at the end of the supply chain there. They are
00:42:19
Speaker
They are buying that or buying into the end product to sweeten their drinks. And I wasn't aware that that happened. I am not a big fan of Coca-Cola as a company at all in general. Before I found this out, um they've done some horrific, horrific things um ah as as well as against animals, like against vulnerable communities and the environment and a quick search engine A bit of perusing will tell you all about that now. I don't need to go into that now.
00:42:49
Speaker
There are many many things interesting about this article. Obviously, Peter are shining a light on it. They are urging Coca-Cola. not to do so. And as usual with PETA, there's calls to action on on how you can have your say and and put the pressure on too.
00:43:06
Speaker
What I thought was interesting is that the headline says, Coca-Cola shareholders demand bull zero sugar to stop cruelty to bulls and improve worker welfare. I thought, oh, that's interesting. Actual Coca-Cola shareholders are saying this.
00:43:22
Speaker
And I think the way they've got that headline is because Peter's ah president, I think think that's the term that she has, but certainly the the head honcho, Ingrid Newkirk, has had shares in Coca-Cola for quite a long time, according to this news story, which I had question marks against. I looked into it and it and it seems like for a short period of her life, she trained to be a stockbroker. So I don't know whether that's just like a little bit of,
00:43:48
Speaker
side hustle that she has just sort of looking at the at the financial times when she's not advocating on behalf of animals. But that really surprised me. So I was a bit all over the place. I'd be i'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this one too, Julie. But I think the bottom line here is that Peter do, ah you know, in in many ways, though I don't always agree with their strategies and things like that, isn't it brilliant to have people like Ingrid Newkirk and organisations like Peter that will just tirelessly campaign on behalf of animals. Like, fantastic that they are shining a light on these things. And, you know, I've been vegan for a very long time.
00:44:26
Speaker
I didn't know that this is happening was happening. So I'm grateful that they're bringing that to people's attention. It's another example of how Coca-Cola are awful. And if you ever have and an opportunity to buy a drink that is not somehow filling their coffers, because they they've got their tendrils everywhere. you You could just be buying bottled water and you'd think it'd be safe. It's probably owned by Coca-Cola in some way. So that's a reason why you another reason why you should avoid doing so.
00:44:55
Speaker
Yeah, this this thing about Ingrid Newkirk, having shares in coca-cola i don't i don't know whether you've seen this story in depth julie sometimes they'll say things in an offhand way and and probably they they phrase it like she's long had shares in them i thought that well that might mean three weeks mightn't it they might be deliberately not putting a number on there she's maybe a plant and hoping to change from within Yeah, yeah, maybe, maybe. You know, she might be doing that as ah and trying steer the company from within with her investing.
00:45:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, perhaps. But I mean, that they they do point out in this article that... PETA-supported animal protection charities in India have worked for for over 10 years trying to say, look, you you need to do this in a different way. You shouldn't be having bullock-driven carts.
00:45:48
Speaker
Of course, it's a developing country in very many respects, but like there are ah ways of mechanising these things so you're not using innocent beings. And actually, you can do so far more efficiently too, though ah I've got mixed feelings about greasing the cogs and the the machine of Coca-Cola anyway. I kind of don't want them to be efficient.
00:46:07
Speaker
But in many senses, it's a no-brainer. But the whole thing about her own owning shares, I was like, what? Don't even mention that. Like, just... I was just so distracted by how horrified I was by the nose rope.
00:46:20
Speaker
I know. On the bullock. That for people who haven't looked up the article, it's just the way that this particular or these particular animals are harnessed. They've got a rope going sort of right through their nostril, which is then being used to punish them. If they turn their head to the side, it will cause them a huge amount of pain.
00:46:41
Speaker
ah So they're not pulling with their nose as such but they're using it as a means of control and it looks utterly barbaric. I'm very pleased to say that I know that sugar in itself is just one of the most environmentally damaging crops.
00:46:59
Speaker
You know, the the agriculture industry and the farmed animal ag is killing the planet. There's no doubt about it. But out of the sort of plant crops that are doing harm, sugar is the most harmful.
00:47:12
Speaker
So just because I think it's a useless substance and I don't have much need for it in anything, I do shun it as as. far as humanly possible so I'm glad I've kind of got it out of my life because it is a horrible crop in lots of ways there's human rights issues associated with it as well but yeah it's just a nasty product and best avoided and so the heck is coca-cola if yeah you know you value your health in any way you won't be drinking that stuff I know it's quite handy for clearing drains and toilets but there's other stuff you can use for that yeah yeah yeah I mean you know it
00:47:49
Speaker
risk of getting completely sidetracked here but someone who was in my life a few years ago was was talking but that they'd completely shunned sugar ah as in in its refined form obviously not in fruits and vegetables and things and they they were saying they saw it as like quite a political act to say i'm going to shun this thing because actually it it is addictive and no one challenges it and it's it's in the ballpark of these huge conglomerate companies who don't care that that people are hooked to it and there's all sorts of injustices that come as as a result of it. And yeah, to bring it back to these animals, like my goodness, and imagine imagine that being your life, that day after day after day, you're carrying huge loads in the searing heat and you're
00:48:33
Speaker
unable to move your head from side to side without experiencing even more pain. So well done, Peter, for for drawing attention to it. And um they are good at getting their stories in the press.
00:48:46
Speaker
You've got to say that. um They are. Well done, Peter. Yeah, yeah. Good for them. Well, those are our picks for the week. We've given our opinions. We really love hearing your opinions as well, listening out there. You are very much part of the conversation to and whether it's something that we've said today that you've got an opinion on or an angle that we've missed or possibly a news story that you've come across that we've not covered in the show or ideas for future shows here's how to get in touch with us to give us your opinions
00:49:19
Speaker
To get in touch with us, just send us an email at enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com. We see ourselves as a collective. our listenership stretches all around the world and everyone's opinions, questions, feedback and ideas are what helps shape the show.
00:49:38
Speaker
Go on, send us a message today. Enoughofthefalafel at gmail.com.
Debate on Dog Testing and Government Plans
00:49:44
Speaker
Okay, we've got time for one last story. This one is relating to a debate that took place in the UK Parliament at the very end of April this year, the debate was on high-profile petition calling for an immediate ban on the use of dogs in scientific and regulatory procedures. The petition was called Ban Immediately the Use of Dogs in Scientific and Regulatory Procedures, um and it amassed over 230,000 signatures garnered support to through activist campaigns.
00:50:23
Speaker
Now, the place that I've taken this article from is an organisation called Understanding Animal Research. And basically that is shorthand for the propaganda wing of animal research. It is not an organisation that is seeking to discourage it.
00:50:41
Speaker
They're framing it as, oh, we just want you to understand it better, whilst leaving certain things out of the equation or shining the light and different directions. Anyway, the debate was opened by Irene Campbell, an MP,
00:50:56
Speaker
who argue that dogs are kept in bleak and inhumane factory-like conditions, and they questioned the scientific necessity and ethical justification for their continued use in research.
00:51:11
Speaker
And throughout this article from Understanding Animal Research, they keep putting in little aside, sort of saying, well, we did try and brief her beforehand. We did try and say this and we did try and come up with this alternative perspective, but it it seems like it didn't work. And she opened up up the debate by saying, yeah, it's bloody horrible and it shouldn't be happening.
00:51:31
Speaker
UAR, Understanding Animal Research, they say they played a key role in informing the debate. They sent a briefing to all MPs. Of course, we don't know whether they read it or not. ensuring they were aware of the claims being made regarding the treatment of dogs in scientific research.
00:51:47
Speaker
And miss Campbell, the MP who I mentioned before, they also participated in an additional briefing over a video call beforehand. So the kind of flip side that was presented was that the majority of procedures involving dogs are classified as mild and that animals are only used when a viable animal non-animal alternative is not available.
00:52:12
Speaker
Not really an argument, is it? Anyway, despite arguments from MPs and campaigners, the government reiterated its position that immediate ban on the use of dogs in research is not feasible. So they're saying it's not feasible for these experiments to stop immediately.
00:52:31
Speaker
They did say that they're committed to phasing it out as a long-term goal. So they're acknowledging that it's wrong, but it's not feasible to do yet. Right, and the argument was given that it was necessary to protect human and animal health.
00:52:47
Speaker
um And whilst MPs discuss the need for greater investment in alternatives and acknowledged shifting public attitudes, the official stance remains um that it will continue under strict regulation until validated alternatives are available.
00:53:04
Speaker
Julie, obviously not the outcome that we would want. Do we take it as a positive that it was debated in the first place that there's a quarter of a million signatures on a petition or does that just fade into irrelevance when basically nothing has changed for those animals?
00:53:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's a bit of both, isn't it? Because we only needed 100,000 for it to be debated. So we were so well over that. It just shows you the amount of feeling, you know, in the general public for this topic.
00:53:38
Speaker
And it Yeah, and it just shows you how easy it is for her the government to just say, oh, no, no, no, we can't do anything about it. It's a bit kind of ah like that nursery rhyme, you know, there's a hole in my bucket, you know and they're saying, oh, yeah, we we have to continue this research using dogs because, you know, our safety guidelines and others' safety guidelines require it.
00:54:05
Speaker
But... We knew that. this This petition was about saying we want that. We want that bit to stop. We want that requirement got rid of. You know, there's there's no point in kind of saying, well, we can't do it because the requirement's there.
00:54:20
Speaker
That's what we wanted rid of. And I would also say that maybe it'll give them some kind of jolt. I'm hoping. I don't know. They're saying they're committed to phasing out testing as a long-term goal.
00:54:35
Speaker
Well, if I said to my boss at work, you know, and she said, well, you know you've got this amount of work to do, Julie. you know, and I want you and i would say, oh, yeah, well, that's my long-term goal that I'm going to do. you know i mean?
00:54:47
Speaker
Yeah. I think she would want me to be a bit more specific about when I would have my work done and she'd have some expectations about that. You know, normally we have to justify the things that we're doing and give people a bit of a timescale, you know. um Yeah, I'm really committed to it. I will get it done, honestly. I'm really, really committed. Yeah, I'm getting house painted soon and actually I'm expecting, you know, that it will just be...
00:55:11
Speaker
started painted and it'll keep on going you know until it's done rather than that you know my the man the painter it's his long-term goal to paint my house you know and yeah i want time scales so let's see the government's investment in this let's see their time scales their plan of how and when they're going to do this they can't just keep giving the circular circular argument that oh but the guidance we're following says it's necessary because that's the bit we need to get in at and say actually it's not necessity necessary and we need to if we do need to be still testing things a better way of testing them so let's see some action and a bit of a time scale
00:55:54
Speaker
Yeah, it it it reminded me of the general rhetoric and mental gymnastics that people do with regards to animal agriculture. Because you've got this whole thing saying, well, yeah, it's wrong. We shouldn't be really doing it. But it's not really a great viable alternative. Like, we'll commit to reducing it.
00:56:13
Speaker
You know, that that's that's the thing to do. But also the other example where it kind of mirrored animal ag, and in my opinion anyway, was this whole thing about saying, oh, well, most of the experiments that happen on dogs, um they're mild.
00:56:27
Speaker
You know, they're rated as mild. It's like, what do you mean they're rated as mild? Who comes up with the rating system? It's you that comes up the rating system. So it can be, you know, you can decide what mild is.
00:56:38
Speaker
it' that Does that dog get to decide what is mild or not? Like if I go to a curry house and I order a mild curry, well, to some people that's... that's not particularly mild at all. that That would be too spicy for them. I'm certainly not going to rub it in my eyes, am i you know Even if it is a cormor, I'm not going to start you know brushing my teeth with it or whatever. So to say, oh, well, this animal experiment is mild. Well, hang on. Should we ask the person who's receiving the experiment? It's not even just all about the experiment. It's about the incarceration and the fact they get killed when they've been experimented on, however mild the procedure's been. you know So there's nothing mild about imprisoning animals in artificial environments and killing them.
00:57:20
Speaker
So the mildness makes no difference to those animals whatsoever. i think as well that that the people who signed this petition, and in a sense, if the conclusion of the debate is...
00:57:34
Speaker
yeah, we agree with you, but it's not practical yet. do Do you really think that the people who were signing that petition were saying, we want animal testing on on dogs to stop...
00:57:47
Speaker
Unless, of course, it's not practical yet, in which case carry on. that That's not what they were saying. They were saying, stop it now. There's no justification. I signed that petition. You know, it's it's it's it's not it's not a good enough reason. And it kind of, i mean, I don't think we really need our faith in the parliamentary process to to drop even further.
00:58:09
Speaker
I'm aware that I'm speaking for others there. That's certainly my my opinion with with regards to politics, but just in terms of the whole system of, oh, you get this many signatures, it's debated in Parliament. Well, it's debated for a bit and then they'll say, yeah, that's a bit hard, isn't it?
00:58:28
Speaker
So we won't. It's different. It's different to what we're currently doing. So it will be a bit tricky. So we won't do it. Well, all change is different. All change is trickier than just carrying on doing the same thing.
00:58:42
Speaker
Like what's what's the point debating it? Grr. Cross, cross, cross. Never mind. and Never mind. It's made a dent. Maybe it's made those 230,000 people, including Julie, even more angry and even more determined to take the next step, whatever that is, and violent uprising.
00:59:01
Speaker
Who knows? I'm not soliciting violence. Jeremy Collar, if you are listening, here's where to put your money where your mouth is. We need some alternatives to experimenting on animals, please, with your AI and stuff. I've already said that in the show, but...
00:59:16
Speaker
Yes, this is your evidence that that's where the that's where the there's a bit of a market. Look, look at these people, two hundred and what is it, 230,000 folk. Yeah, there's a market you're not tapping into there.
00:59:28
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Get on it, Jazza, get on it. Right, if you're still listening by the time me and Julie are spitting whatnots at this stage of the show, we reckon you might well be enjoying
Call to Action and Podcast Conclusion
00:59:41
Speaker
the show. And if that is the case, there's a little favour we'd like to ask from you.
00:59:45
Speaker
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01:00:11
Speaker
That will also help the show pop up when people search for vegan or animal rights content online. Thanks for your help.
01:00:22
Speaker
Thank you everyone for listening. Just to give you a wee heads up, the next of the Enough of the Falafel is coming out on Thursday the 8th of May and it's a vegan talk episode with Anthony and myself and we are going to be talking about, I'm starting to laugh and I'll tell you why in a minute, No More Me and other vegan approaches to your garden i had already mowed both of my lawns by the second of may so tune in on thursday to find out if i am converted to no more the rest of me or not everybody just seeing you painstakingly in your garden with uh
01:01:10
Speaker
some sort of plant-based pva glue just sticking all the blades of grass back on top of one another anyway that is enough of the falafel for this episode thank you julie for all your contributions today thanks everyone for listening i've been anthony and you've been listening to vegan week from the enough of the falafel collective
01:01:34
Speaker
This has been an Enough of the Falafel production. We're just a normal bunch of everyday vegans putting our voices out there. The show is hosted by Zencaster. We use music and special effects by zapsplap.com.
01:01:48
Speaker
And sometimes if you're lucky at the end of an episode, you'll hear a poem by Mr. Dominic Berry. Thanks all for listening and see you next time.
01:02:15
Speaker
This episode may have come to an end, but did you know we've got a whole archive containing all our shows dating back to September 2023? That is right, Dominic. There's over 100 episodes on there featuring our brilliant range of different guests, people's stories of going vegan, philosophical debates, moral quandaries, and of course, around a dozen news items from around the world each week. So check back on your podcast player,
01:02:42
Speaker
to hear previous episodes. And remember to get an alert for each new episode, simply click like or follow and also subscribe to the show. Thanks for your ongoing support wherever you listen to us from.