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Episode 53 - Artistic Monogamy is Killing Your Soul (w/ Jeff Hein)
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Why do so many of us LIMIT what we’re capable of ? How many of these limitations are self-imposed vs. the result of economic pressure to make a living? Do we get more hesitant to explore as we get older? We often describe ourselves as one thing; I’m a woodworker, I’m a painter, I’m metal worker, etc. However back in the renaissance, it was COOL to know poetry, have a deep understanding of math and science, to paint, draw, sculp, act, to dive into philosophy, what we now refer to today a “Renaissance Man or Woman".
In today’s episode, we have on a true renaissance man Jeff Hein, who you may know as an incredibly skilled and famous portrait artist painter, however it goes much deeper than that. Jeff also pursues textiles and costume design, woodworking, metal working, engraving, leather working, and leads us through a fascinating discussion on this topic of why we pigeonhole ourselves vs. branching out and exploring.
Jeff has his own amazing podcast here (The Undraped Artist): https://www.youtube.com/@theundrapedartist
Jeff’s Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/jeff_hein_art
To watch the YOUTUBE VIDEO of this episode and the irreverent & somewhat unpredictable AFTERSHOW, subscribe to our Patreon: (http://patreon.com/user?u=91688467)
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Woodworking is Bullshit'
00:00:01
Speaker
I think you've all heard the phrase, jack of all trades, master of none. But in more recent times, they've added, but oftentimes, better than a master of one.
00:00:16
Speaker
huh
00:00:29
Speaker
Hello, friends. Good Eve. This is Woodworking is Bullshit, your favorite podcast about creativity, art, design, the mental side, the philosophical side.
00:00:42
Speaker
My tongue got twisted up in my mouth. The philosophical side of what we do and not how we
Jeff Hein: Maker vs Artist
00:00:48
Speaker
do. I'm your host, Paul Jasper of Copperpick Woodworking, and I got my boy in the chair, Eric Curtis, fine furniture maker and content creator, and our guest tonight.
00:00:56
Speaker
Special, special guest. Jeff Hine I want to welcome you to the podcast we are absolutely over the moon to have such an incredible painter such as you to help us get through today's topic so I just want to start by saying thank you welcome to the podcast say that to all the guests no no I don't now they all look bad compared to you laughter laughter
00:01:28
Speaker
jeff Thank you for being on the show. Oh, man, i'm honored to be here. This is going to be fun. You guys are great. It's going to be a good. Jeff is one of the finest ah portrait artists and painters I've ever seen in my life. He's also a teacher. He has his own atelier, the Hein Atelier.
00:01:46
Speaker
a aalier online and in person, which is already are you cool you guys use this word during the pre-call and you just used it right there twice. What the hell is that? I'm going to need definition. It's really simple. hallier It means studio in French.
00:02:02
Speaker
So it's just a pretentious way of saying studio. Oh, I love being pretentious though. That is one of my favorite things to do on the internet. Yeah, I actually, it actually used to be named the Academy, but just for search reasons, like on Google, everyone's calling them atelier. So I switched. Really? Yeah.
00:02:17
Speaker
The Hein Atelier. Hein Atelier. All right. Yeah. Well, and as a testament to your skill as a portrait painter, when I first logged on to the call for a strong 15 to 20 seconds, I thought that painting behind you was a lady just like standing there going to join us on the line. Oh, really? This way? Yeah. No joke. Yeah, she's my friend. Yeah. I can't even get my hand right. Trying to pat her. Careful, Jeff. Yeah, let's keep it clean. Okay, so for those of you who don't have the video feed, just join our Patreon and you can see Jeff awkwardly patting some of his paintings in the background.
00:03:00
Speaker
all right. Jeff, you also said before the call that in many ways you think of yourself as a maker as opposed to an artist. And I think that feeds into today's topic, which is about how we pigeonhole ourselves into, say, being one thing. You say, oh, yeah I'm a this or I'm a that. But see, even your own description of yourself, I think, gives away the topic in essence because you think of yourself more broadly as a maker. Yeah?
00:03:29
Speaker
Mm-hmm. A hundred percent. and and that And painting is just one of those multitudes of of of things you enjoy. Yeah. You know, as a as a kid, I didn't even draw much.
00:03:42
Speaker
I mean, i would draw I would draw like on the back of my – you remember the the old paper bag? book covers we used to do. Oh, you used to do yeah. Yeah. Kids still do that? kids My kids have books anymore.
00:03:54
Speaker
That's true. there Paperback Kindle covers. Yeah. Yeah. No, we were poor children who had to take the grocery bags and cover our books. done Yeah, we all did. Exactly. So I would draw on that in school.
00:04:07
Speaker
But then when I got home, I'd spend more time, if I wasn't playing sports or just doing kid stuff, I'd be in my dad's shop, you know playing with his tools and making things. and you know i i would i went on a camping trip with my dad once and I didn't want to, when we were there, I knew I was gonna have to catch my own dinner. That was one of the requirements of a camping trip, of the camping trip. it was it was called a father and son camp out.
00:04:34
Speaker
And it was associated with my church. And my dad's like, when we get there, you guys gotta catch your own food before you play. And I'm like, oh man. So I had a few weeks to prepare. So I think I was like 10 or 12, I made an electric fishing pole.
00:04:46
Speaker
And it was this a little electronic device that attached to the handle of the fishing pole. And when a fish was caught, the buzzer went off. And, um, and, and it told you that, you know, I had a fish. So I just put my, I cast it out and, uh, my dad's like, where are you going? I'm going to play dad. I tied it to a tree and then I went and played like 30 minutes later. All of a sudden I hear my buzzer go off, reel in my fish, cook it up and have dinner.
00:05:11
Speaker
Jeff, you're genius. How have you not patented that and made millions? Oh, dude. And I burglar alarmed my room when I was a kid. My mom i was like my mom kept on getting in my drawers, you know trying to rearrange stuff.
00:05:22
Speaker
So I i so put a burglar alarm, homemade burglar alarm over the door. Every single drawer when she opened it, something would go off or a booby trapped it. Yeah. Jeff, you're a genius. Sounds was like you were you were living the actual Home Alone life.
00:05:37
Speaker
A little bit, but just a little more techy. whatever is Yeah, a little more techy. Jeff, you're a genius. love that. I love that stuff. Well, you haven't seen it. It was pretty rudimentary, but for a 10-year-old, it wasn't so bad. So, so how did you get, first of all, you said you would go into your dad's shop and and make things in the evenings and on weekends. What types of things were you, was it all like invention style things? Were you just like tinkering? Were you making furniture? Were you making ah things to play with? Like what kind of things were you making when you were younger? I was, that's why I say I think of myself as a maker. Cause I can't say,
00:06:12
Speaker
I'm a furniture maker. I can't say I'm an inventor. I can't say I'm and i'm into electronics or whatever. i'm I'm into all that stuff. So it was never one thing. I mean, there were times where I spent like a month just using the bandsaw and cutting out letters and like, oh, my dad got a new bandsaw. and And then making like, I've made jewelry boxes for girlfriends and furniture for girlfriends. and Nice move, bro. That's going to get the job done. Smooth. They still wrote up with me. They still broke up with me, but you know but I did get married eventually. and Although she doesn't like anything I make.
00:06:49
Speaker
It's kind of never thought about that way. a pattern there Anyway, so and then, you know, in little inventions. um Just if I had a problem, I would I just go to sleep thinking about it and get up the next day and try. and Do you find that you still have that same mentality, even though you're known as a painter now?
00:07:08
Speaker
Oh, 100 percent. I'm the most distracted painter on the planet. I mean, before we got on the call, I was TIG welding and not I wasn't painting. I was TIG welding. And so. How many maker, how many maker lanes are you in? Would you say?
00:07:22
Speaker
You mean as, you mean as far as like the types of activities I'm doing? yeah Like, can you, can you tell us like, I know you do woodworking. I do woodworking. I do metalworking. I do leatherworking. I do electronics.
00:07:34
Speaker
Um, What else? Painting. I've done, I built out my van. I did all kinds of fiberglass. I did. um I mean, I had a handyman business, so I know how to, I know how to do but everything to build a house, you know, plumbing, electrical, whatever.
00:07:49
Speaker
um i mean, any, I'm willing to do anything. So you must like if I have a problem, I'll just figure it out. Oh, you must enjoy the the challenge and the the joy of discovery and curiosity.
00:08:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I love learning new skills. Jeff, it sounds like you and I are very similar. That's what he said. That's what Paul said. Yeah. This desire to just like learn new shit, just find things out. And like, if you don't know how to do it, the fun part of it is like, well, I'll just take it apart, find out how it works and then try to like reconstruct that on my own. Exactly.
00:08:24
Speaker
But you, you've become known as a painter, right? Like that's your, yeah that's your primary right ah business. So how did you get from kid inventing fishing poles with buzzers on it in electrical currents to ah one of the finest portrait painters, the side of the Mississippi?
00:08:43
Speaker
What's, what's that trajectory? um Yeah, that's a really interesting story because like I said, as a kid, I didn't draw that much. ah In fact, When I went to college, I told my parents I wanted to become ah an artist. I didn't know what that meant. I thought maybe I'd be an illustrator or something.
00:09:01
Speaker
And ah my mom's like, you don't even draw. And, but she knew I was talented because she'd seen me draw. But when what she meant was I don't draw consistently. She never sees me doing it. She saw it like a year ago, you know, and that was it. And it was like for five minutes and was was impressed. And then I never did it again. It was that kind of thing.
00:09:22
Speaker
And she's like, you want to go to school for this? Not to mention my parents were very scared because, you know, the stereotype starving artist and they're like, what are you thinking? And this was back in the early nineties, 92 is when I went to college.
00:09:35
Speaker
And, ah but what happened, like I guess what happened was all the other things were undefinable. I had my, I was so interested in so many things, but there was only one thing that I could see that really set me apart.
00:09:52
Speaker
and uh maybe that's out of ignorance and maybe i didn't see a career path for all my other interests but i think more than anything all those other interests were sort of vague and they didn't really they they don't really point in a clear direction but but i i saw other students in high school and junior high and stuff doing art and i was like could see that I had a clear aptitude for it compared to my peers.
00:10:20
Speaker
And so I was like, dang, I could, maybe I could do this. I could so be an artist. So was really chasing aptitude more than, was that's more than a passion. That's what I was going to say. So it doesn't, it doesn't sound like you fell in love with it so much as you realize that you were really naturally talented at it. Right. And then you went, I can make this into a career.
00:10:39
Speaker
It was not love. I was not at all. I mean, I did not choose to, I ah would not choose to draw or paint full time to this day. I was going to say, do you love it now?
00:10:52
Speaker
It's not that, yes, I do, but I love all of it. That's the thing. It's ah it's just one more medium. And I could have been anything that related. I would love to be an engineer, for example. I could totally see myself as an engineer.
00:11:06
Speaker
um I could totally see myself as a builder of some sort, like ah like a contractor. I could see myself as any of the things that I mentioned, you know, so furniture maker or whatever. But but painting, it's – well, let me tell you this before you answer my question. So to answer the question in short, what happened was I went to college. I started studying art.
00:11:24
Speaker
Then I started a handyman business to put myself through school because I knew I also had those skills. So I started a handyman business. It did really well. And then I started making furniture for people because I, you know, a handy, a client would have me finish their basement.
00:11:39
Speaker
And, and then they would say, you know, anyone that does cabinets? And I'd be like, I can do cabinets. You know, I'd never done cabinets before. So I sure rent. They don't have to know that they give you a deposit. Exactly. So they gave me a deposit for $3,000.
00:11:54
Speaker
I went out and bought some tools at Home Depot. I rented a storage unit. I used a bucket for a bathroom and I made wall-to-wall cabinets for them in a storage unit. and then um And then they got mad at me because I was three weeks late and they said to me, you didn't have to make fine furniture. We wanted it three weeks ago.
00:12:12
Speaker
I was like, so you're saying it's too good. They're like, yeah, we just wanted cabinets and you dovetailed everything and you did. They're like, I'm like, wow, I've never had a insult like that one before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a weird neg.
00:12:25
Speaker
Yeah, but I started, so I started after that job, I kept making furniture. I'm like, I can do this furniture thing. So I started making commissioned furniture for people. And then I just realized I couldn't, I'm like, I toyed around with the idea of becoming a furniture maker, but then I painted my, i sold my first painting and I was like,
00:12:43
Speaker
I can't, I can make so much better of a living painting. So the things were going side by side where I was doing other things and then I was doing painting. Okay. And it became very clear at one point that painting was more lucrative. and i Yeah. Pause right there for a second. Cause that's a really interesting point. Do you think that you were, so how old are you at this point in your twenties?
00:13:02
Speaker
Uh, yeah. When I was in that storage unit, I was probably 23, 23. Okay. Okay. So like you're, you're right at the beginning of that career. trying to, you know, you want to make shit for a living, but you don't know what shit is going to be the most lucrative. You find that you can sell a painting for a lot more than you can sell cabinets for. Do you think that's because of your natural aptitude toward painting? Or do you think that there is a different market for fine art versus woodworking slash cabinetry? Yeah.
00:13:30
Speaker
Well, I think the fact that i'm I have an aptitude for it certainly is a requirement, right? But the ah the other is ah ah also true. I mean, there I found that unless I'm somebody like Wendell Castle, you guys familiar with him? Yeah. know yeah like who is literally seen as an artist of furniture makers. He's not seen as a furniture maker. He's seen as like a sculptor that makes functional sculptures. And just happened to work in wood. That's all. Exactly. Exactly.
00:13:57
Speaker
That's kind of where, you know, I, I want, I was always planning on becoming a painter, but then I started thinking maybe furniture because I love that too. And, But I just couldn't see a path to Wendell Castle status. Right. But paintings, it just is already there.
00:14:12
Speaker
But here's the thing. I love painting too. I love it all. So it's not like I had to compromise. It was, it was an easy decision. It's like if two things you love, one pays, one doesn't. Oh, totally. Duh. No, I did the same thing. I loved music and I loved science. And my dad's like, well, do you enjoy eating on a regular schedule? And I was like, yes. And so he's like, do science. And I was like, okay. Because it pays way better than music. Yeah, yeah. did the same thing. I fell in love with woodworking and then didn't actually have a second choice. So I stuck with woodworking. Yeah. All right. So our podcast is topical and we think in many ways the topics are even more important than any one of us in our stories because the topics speak to the entire audience, everyone in the field. So...
00:15:01
Speaker
When we were talking, you and i kind of coming up with today's topic, why did you suggest the idea about like art? Like why do we pigeonhole ourselves versus like this whole idea of renaissance? what made What made you feel like that is such an important topic for us to talk about?
Renaissance Perspectives and Modern Specialization
00:15:20
Speaker
Because I constantly, i live in this mode of... Confusion. I have been, I've been there for 25 years because I don't understand it.
00:15:34
Speaker
I don't understand how a creative person, I'm not, and it's no judgment. Yeah. I just can't relate. I don't understand how a creative person can get so obsessed with one thing and let everything else go.
00:15:51
Speaker
you know Or maybe letting everything else go is the wrong phrase. But to me, creativity is all-encompassing. My house has to be beautiful. My studio has to be beautiful. Everything I make has to be beautiful. Everything I do, like it's in your soul.
00:16:06
Speaker
And I've heard my entire career people say, God, man, if I wasn't painting, I don't know what I would do. And I'm like, what? Like... I don't understand.
00:16:18
Speaker
Do you have, there's so many other great ways to express yourself with your hands. Um, I mean, I honestly, I just don't get it. So I thought it was an interesting topic because I frankly, ah just don't understand it. And I'm, and it's something that, um, I've often been puzzled by, you know, like for example, I mean, I do sort of understand it with a certain type of artist, but I'm going be, going to be a little judgmental, but you take like, please do this to save space. Nobody else is listening. Yeah. I'm early in the podcast development.
00:16:55
Speaker
Um, so, you know, you take an artist like, uh, Lucian Freud, right. Um, and you look at his studio or Jackson Pollock and it's a disaster.
00:17:07
Speaker
Totals, their whole life looks like chaos. Now I get that because they're modern artists and and there's not a whole lot of talent in that anyway. so That's the part I'm going to get burned on. That's just my opinion.
00:17:20
Speaker
So we both smiled because we agree with you. Yeah. So basically, to me, to me certain type of, and I like some abstract art. Don't get me wrong. There are some that are very talented, but a lot of a lot of modern art is a scam. A lot of modern art is just some moron got chosen by the elite as ah as a as a means of you know, laundering money. Well, isn't that what a lot of people say about Jackson Pollock?
00:17:46
Speaker
Like it was just i like America trying to be like, we have art too. Yeah. And so, so their, their lives are chaos. They don't do anything else with their lives granted. But when you're a, when you're a classical painter, man, that is the hardest thing I've ever done. And it's still to this day, the hardest thing I do.
00:18:01
Speaker
And why um why is that the hardest thing? Oh my gosh. It, It's like my wife said to me, I've often told this joke, so if I've probably said on other podcasts, but I just find it so funny. I mean, one time I came home from work and I was exhausted.
00:18:17
Speaker
You know, it was like a 10, 12 hour day of painting. And ah I told my wife I was exhausted. She'd been home all day with the kids. and We have three kids. And I was like, man, I'm so tired. And she goes, well, she holds her hand up and and just makes a painting gesture with her wrist and just moves her hand a little like this and goes, oh, what's the matter? Is your wrist sore, Jeff? your wrist sore?
00:18:41
Speaker
I was like, yes oh, man. She's going to keep you honest, huh? Yeah, but but what she's kidding. She is kidding, but I don't think she actually understands. the And I'm not saying this to tout...
00:18:56
Speaker
my perceived personal intelligence. I'm not suggesting that at all. But for me personally, ah it takes a lot of my brain power. It pushes me to the limits. Can you, because we're woodworkers. I mean, there's all kinds of artists that listen to this podcast, but primarily makers and woodworkers. Can you give us a minute of what's going on in your brain as you're painting? Just put us in your in your head for just a second so we understand the types of decisions you're making on in every moment.
00:19:29
Speaker
I don't want to over, it's hard to explain, but I'll do the best I can. And I'm probably going to trip over my words and I'm probably to regret saying something. Not because I'm going to offend anybody, but because I'll think about it later and be like, no, that's not perfect way of putting it, but I'll do my best. Life's imperfect. So let's say woodworking. So obviously I've got some experience with woodworking, not as much as you two, but I've got some experience with it. And You know, I think about, you know, cutting a perfect dovetail by hand, right? It's, uh, it's part of the whole furniture process if you're doing it that way. Right. Yeah.
00:20:02
Speaker
Yeah. But the, the, and it's a difficult thing, mostly muscle memory, right? So you gotta, you, you, you've got to put in the hours to get that muscle memory, but once you have the muscle memory, you've got it, you know, and it's there and you can depend on it.
00:20:16
Speaker
Um, there's no equivalent in painting. Right. There's no, ah not that I can think of. There's no equivalent. Yes. You get to, you get better with your brushes and your, and, and you, you can make a more fluid stroke, but it doesn't translate the same way. Like even an uncoordinated person can do a good painting because it's all of a mental exercise. Um, the other thing I'll say is that when you're cutting a dovetail, the design's already done, right? You, you're like,
00:20:41
Speaker
so So the process is very much compartmentalized compared to painting, right? So when you do a painting like the ones behind me, yes, I do prepare the composition ahead of time.
00:20:54
Speaker
But those compositional decisions don't, they're not, they don't just cap off and end and you're done. Now it's time to start cutting joints. It's every brush stroke is part of the composition. So you've only got the the overarching broad composition down. And then now as you're adding brush marks, every last stroke contributes to the composition. So i see it's never done.
00:21:16
Speaker
So not only are you focused on composition, you're also focused on beautiful mark making, but you're also focused on creating form on a two dimensional surface, which is really difficult to do. You're, you're, you're balancing creating form. You're balancing color. You're balancing temperature. You're balancing chroma. You're balancing. What's chroma.
00:21:35
Speaker
Chroma is like saturation. How, how intense a color is, right? You're, you're trying to create depth using as many as 11 different devices in order to create depth. Okay. And trying to balance all of those with the composition all real time.
00:21:50
Speaker
Right. And it's just a lot to balance. It feels like the best way i can describe it is it feels like you're, you're, you're taking the ACTs. Like, so when I come home, I'm like, I, it's like a creative ACT. I get home at 10 hours. I'm like,
00:22:02
Speaker
and she's making fun of me about the wrist thing. And I'm just like, no, it's here. My head hurts. Yeah, it's not the wrist. My head hurts. I'm just like- You're exhausted from being invested in the process for 10 hours. Problem solving every single second. Like you, here's how I look at it too. Like there are times when you're doing many crafts where you can sort of just- you can sort of depend on the muscle memory and think about other things while you're working. Dovetails. painting, if, right.
00:22:30
Speaker
With painting, if you stop thinking and drawing, if you stop thinking for a minute about what you're doing, you'll go down the wrong path and you'll be fixing mistakes for a week. Like you cannot stop thinking. That's why it takes me so long to build anything. If I'm honest.
00:22:45
Speaker
i mean, there's some of this in every craft, right? yeah but But it's like every second I tell my students, don't stop thinking. What happens is they'll start drawing brainlessly, which is the only way I can put it, where they're just drawing out of memory and muscle memory. In other words, they they're rendering they rendering the form of the face, right? And they just start rendering and they're having fun. and they then They stop thinking about what they're doing.
00:23:07
Speaker
and intensely thinking. Next thing you know, they've done it all wrong and the face is flat or it's too round or it's too something. And then they spend two hours cleaning up the mess. And the the biggest, I often tell the students, the biggest difference between an amateur artist and a great artist is that a great artist is so disciplined that they never stop thinking. Like they know, right? And an amateur artist could do it if they had the discipline to just stay focused.
00:23:37
Speaker
Do you think that that is natural aptitude that you have in part of the reason why painting was so easy for you? Or maybe it's not easy. I wouldn't say it's easy. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But you are more naturally adept at painting because your brain is wired in that way where you constantly look and assess and adjust in order to create the best thing. Or is that a thing that you had That's not I had to learn that. So the the aptitude, i am not, I'm totally ADD. Many artists are. So you totally have to learn that.
00:24:10
Speaker
The aptitude comes in the understanding of the principles. So in all the years of teaching, I've had very few students that I've only had to tell them once and they understand what I'm saying.
00:24:22
Speaker
You know, most of the time i have to, it it's not that they're... It's not that they're complex, it's almost like juggling. You throw one ball relatively easy, right?
00:24:33
Speaker
Then I'm gonna throw one more at you. Then I'm gonna throw another one at you. Next thing you know you're juggling 16 balls, right? And so it's it gets to a point where students just, they just don't know how to throw the third ball or the fourth ball. They just don't get it. And that more times I throw it at them, the more they drop it and they just don't get it.
00:24:51
Speaker
And it could be it could be any principle that this doesn't it isn't s sinking in And they could spend months trying to figure it out. But every now and then I'll get a student. My so my son's one of these students.
00:25:02
Speaker
And um where I just tell him one thing. And so far, he's only been studying me for about six months. But so far,
00:25:12
Speaker
my daughter, who's also studying me, is like, dad's bragging about you. She's in the background. She's also one of those students, by the way. They got the genes. But he's been here about six or eight months and everything I tell him, he gets it the first time. I mean, there might come be a wall there, but most people, I gotta tell them over and over and over again, they just don't get it. So that was your natural aptitude? That's the aptitude. The natural ability to understand the elements and principles of art. You just had that innate in your bones. I didn't know it, but once someone told me- Sure, sure, sure.
00:25:44
Speaker
I got it usually the first time. And so it was a really quick, relatively quick process to learn how to paint because I, I, they said it to me and I'm just like, well, yeah, okay. I get that. And I did it and I never stopped doing it.
00:25:58
Speaker
Um, so I wonder Jeff, if that's why you've been so why, but, but, pi Moving your interest into so many different fields has come quite easily for you.
00:26:13
Speaker
you know Maybe that aptitude is what is behind your enjoyment of learning all these different fields. Because it was a grind, you probably wouldn't enjoy it ah Probably not.
00:26:23
Speaker
Right. no it's always Well, that's not necessarily true. It's always sort of a grind, but it's the fulfillment of of overcoming it It's like winning a race. yeah hurts all the way. Yes, but you you're going in with the knowledge that you know if you buckle down, you will get it you have that confidence. i have that confidence. Yeah, but not everyone has that confidence. I was going to say, I feel like that confidence is kind of innate.
00:26:47
Speaker
Like even before you know that you have the skills to do it, you had the confidence to to believe that you could figure out. yeah Eric, that's earned. That confidence is earned over a lifetime trying things. And every time you try it, you seem to come up roses eventually. i think And then you're like, well, I guess I can these things. That's probably true. That's probably true, but i can only speak for myself. But Jeff, Jeff, I'm going to guess because I've already said I think you and I are similar in a lot of ways. When I was younger, that I would just roll up to a situation, whatever it is like I had to I had to learn how to sweat some pipe. had to learn how to rewire a house. I had to learn how to build a cabinet, whatever it was. and I'd be like, fuck it. I can figure it out.
00:27:27
Speaker
that confidence wasn't earned yet. Like I had no, no, no, I'm the same way in any of those things. I disagree, Eric. it's It's not confidence from those areas. It's confidence from, from something else in your past that told you I'm going to be able to do this. I think it's just a hard head in this of like, I don't like anybody who tells me I can't figure it out. I don't know. It could be. This is how I looked at it.
00:27:50
Speaker
ah Well, it's a mixed bag. I think you're both right. it's a mix For me personally, at least, it's a mixed bag. Because I remember thinking as a kid, my mom would say, if you really want to be an artist, why don't you ever enter any contests or take any art classes? because I never did.
00:28:03
Speaker
And I said, because I know that somebody out there is better than me. And there's what's the point, Right. But then as time went on, I so i went to college and and I could see then, oh crap, no, I guess I do have more skills than I thought I had.
00:28:18
Speaker
i guess it's I guess the world is a little less intimidating. but ah So there is a little piece of it with painting in particular, but at the same time, I do remember even as a young kid,
00:28:30
Speaker
And it might just been because I saw my dad always be able to do everything. My dad was great with his hands. And I just assume that's just me. Maybe I just assume that's how it is. But I do always remember thinking if that man can do it or that woman can do it, why can't I? That's just a body. I'm a body. I have a brain. They have a brain. And it was just seemed like common sense to me. If if it can be done by a human, why can't this human do it? Yes. I've had that same confidence my whole life too, Jeff. I've yeah always, I've swept copper. I've done electrical. I sided my house. I built my porch. I did my bathroom. I did my kitchen. Like I've never, I've never come across something where I couldn't figure it out ever.
00:29:08
Speaker
And I rarely fail in catastrophic fashion. Like you have little failures along the way, but nothing catastrophic. So I think a lifetime of seeing that I can figure it out has given me the confidence the next time I'm like, Oh sure. Let's, we we can figure this out because When haven't you figured it out in your past? It definitely builds. It builds for sure. Yeah, it builds. And i don't mean that in a braggy way, but just an honest way. Like if if you try these things and you you don't go down in a ball of flames, like you tend to feel more um excited about learning the next thing, right? Because it builds on itself. And I think anyone can do. I honestly think, I mean, I know we all have different aptitudes. So there are some people that are going to be slower at learning things, right?
00:29:49
Speaker
But, you know, at my, my, my wife and I are so different in this way. And raising kids was interesting because I have a, you can, you can, you can attitude. And, um, my wife, your kids, cause she would, you, she'd your kids. Like she'd call them over and see what they think. I know. Right.
00:30:09
Speaker
No, they've definitely got it. Oh my gosh. My daughter right now is literally, she's literally sewing a dress that she made up. She makes up the patterns. She just taught herself. Well, I taught her out to sew a little bit, but she's gone far beyond what I taught her. And then now she just makes her own clothes, not with patterns. She has a ah dummy and she's, she's making a dress right now as we speak.
00:30:29
Speaker
I mean, they're insanely, they, they both believe they can do anything. And I don't know if that's genetic or the way they were raised, but one parent, me always said, you guys can do anything that you put your mind to. And another parent's like, I can't do that. Can't, can't, can't, can't, can't.
00:30:46
Speaker
And like, I'd say, you can do this to to my wife. And she'd say, no, I can't. And I'm like, yes, you can. No, I can't. No, I can't. We literally fight about it. I'm like, yes, you No, I can't. I'm like, fine, you can't. you know But I think there's a certain type of personality that's like that. And and speak of the devil, that was her.
00:31:05
Speaker
um she She probably heard me. She's listening. I'm so screwed. You're done. Your daughter's going to tell her everything you said. know. Well, she doesn't listen to your podcast and I'll make sure of it. Not yet, but I'm going to find her.
00:31:20
Speaker
right. No. Anyway. You know, from from a general sense, you know, what we're talking, there's a term that people like to use to describe what we're talking about, which is you're a Renaissance man or a Renaissance woman. Like you're you're a Renaissance person. Yeah. Right.
00:31:36
Speaker
And we use that term to denote someone who has aptitudes across a wide variety of spectrums, whether it be science and art, working with your hands, social IQ, ah whatever, right? We describe it as a renaissance person.
00:31:54
Speaker
So yeah know all day today, before today's episode, I was being like, okay. I mean, I get that it it comes from the Renaissance. Like i guess there were people you know who espoused those traits in the Renaissance, but I took a really deep dive. And I mean, i was cutting powers. Just today. hours I was cutting hours, hours and hours of dovetails today, Jeff. I was, right? Like you said, because you can think, you can think while you cut dovetails because I've done it so many hundreds of times. So like my brain can can absorb information. I watched video after video, after lecture, like like academic lectures on the Renaissance, trying to understand what does it mean? Why was why was the Renaissance like something special, right?
00:32:36
Speaker
What'd you learn? And like, why did it happen? So what I learned was that like during the Renaissance, what what I've learned is that it was sort of like the perfect storm is what happened in the Renaissance. So the Renaissance is like 1400, 1400, 1500, 1600, right? Right. So we had just come out of the dark ages, the so-called dark ages, which is like Rome collapsed.
00:33:01
Speaker
There was this intervening period after the collapse of Rome and Greece of like feudal states, fighting war. Everything went from big built up beautiful cities like the classics of Rome, right? All to these little feudal settlements all fucked up and like warring factions and disease and famine. And that's why they call it the dark ages and they're like medieval dark ages. It was a mess.
00:33:26
Speaker
And out of the dark ages comes the Renaissance. Specifically, everyone seems to talk about Florence, Italy is where it sort of first got traction. And what was happening is, well, famine had passed. The the the Black Plague is over.
00:33:41
Speaker
And um everyone who's still alive is like, I guess we're going to live. This is pretty awesome. So I think we're we're safe. Right. So first of all, you're not going to die. Right. There's that. Yeah. Second of all. trade and and and Florence became a major banking center and there was a lot of money happening then at the time. So not only are we not going to die, but there's money to be had. okay m And the third thing is that what became really cool is they had rediscovered the classics of Rome and Greece through like exploration and they had, I guess, invented the first sort of printing press to be able to print
00:34:19
Speaker
ah print materials and reproduce the books of the time. Go ahead, Eric. No, was just going to give Goody a big shout out in that spot, you know? Is that who it was?
00:34:30
Speaker
Gutenberg? Come on, bro. You can't just hang me with it. thought you were saying Gowdy, Gowdy. I was like, what are you talking about? Okay, now I got you. No, Big Goody. Go for it. oh no like yeah giving that You like Big Goody? Big Goody fan. good so all right so So you have like a lot of money. The Medici family is is talked about a lot in Florence. So there's money and everyone's like coming out of the dark ages. Everyone's feeling more optimistic.
00:34:58
Speaker
And um now we can reproduce materials like reading. And so they're they're interested in all the philosophical books of greek of Greece and Rome. And a lot of them were philosophical about what it means to live a more rich life. And so in this ah perfect storm is born this idea of humanism.
00:35:18
Speaker
apparently. And humanism is like less of a focus on the divine. It's not it's not anti-religion by any means, but a little less focus on you know the the divine and the powers that be and a little more self-centered focus on what it's like to be a human and to live a rich life as a human. Humans became more the object of paintings and and literature more than simply only religious powers, but it was like the human you could see was more being the center of things.
00:35:50
Speaker
And so with that came this cool factor, or I would almost say a fad to be well-read, know poetry, to know some science, to know some painting. Like all the things we talk about being a Renaissance person, that became very in vogue with humanism because it was a focus on being a more complete human. And what did that mean? That meant being a complete, in in some sense, a complete human meant being a generalist.
00:36:18
Speaker
Like i I understand literature and I'm well spoken I have a great vocabulary and I've read this and I, you know, and I am physically fit and I can make things that I can paint. And you think of Leonardo da Vinci, you think of Michelangelo, Raphael, all these people who really soaked in multiple ah multitudes of discipline. And what you saw is like these, these multitudes of disciplines that were sort of coming in at the time.
00:36:42
Speaker
were cross-pollinating each other. So for example, math and science was informing two-point or three-point perspective in paintings. Like the math was allowing them to represent ah art in different ways. And so so in essence, that's what I learned today. It was a fascinating series of lectures on like what it meant to be a Renaissance person.
00:37:01
Speaker
And I think it happened though, because everything was right at the time. The money was there, the people were there, like the classics had been to rediscovered. People could read them because of the invention of the printing press and like all this stuff occurred at the same time.
00:37:16
Speaker
And so that sounds super idealistic, super exciting, right? But now where are we today? like that's, we're like, we're again, we're like a long, long stones throw from those conditions today. So like we idealize the idea of being a Renaissance person, let's say, but do the conditions of today support being a master of many as opposed to a specialist? Yeah.
00:37:46
Speaker
Well, my first reaction to that question is there was less to know back then. There was low-hanging fruit. Yeah, that's part of the thing. Da Vinci is always the person that's held up as like, oh my God, he was a master painter, sculptor, engineer, inventor, all of the things. He did everything. but the level of understanding of physical science and engineering at that point in time was not to put him in no no no like down in any way no you're right elementary compared to to what like if he had to study quantum physics he probably also wouldn't have time to paint yes but he had no he had no foundation to he was learning these things de novo which is incredible on Sure, sure. And again, I'm not saying he wasn't a genius. You're basically saying there was some low hanging fruit, right? Yes, there was a lot of things that we talk about. He invented like a prototype of a helicopter is one of the things that came up. And that's super cool, super intuitive. Brilliant man.
00:38:55
Speaker
But like how many other people invented a helicopter in that same time? But Da Vinci's is the only one we know because he's Leonardo Da Vinci. yeah I think there are probably a lot of people who are grabbing at that same loaf hanging fruit that just 500 years later, we don't know about. So Derek, you know, what's interesting about that is I'm not going to say too much because I think this is going to be cool and you guys are going to want it if it works. Okay.
00:39:20
Speaker
But I just, uh, for woodworking for my shop, I came up with an idea that's that hopefully is going to drastically improve the effectiveness of my dust collection system.
00:39:32
Speaker
Okay. And, and then I got, i so so I planned out this whole idea. i put it all together in, in, um, CAD and I just tried to, or a CAD program and just put, you know, put all the pieces together.
00:39:46
Speaker
It's currently printing. And then, and and then I started researching it and just to see if my theory was accurate. And it turns out that the, that the theory which just sort of seemed logical to me, actually has already been applied to other technologies. Not the one I'm using, but the actual science that I thought I came up with on my own has already been used in other technologies.
00:40:18
Speaker
I don't think in this one, but the point is, DaVinci, when he came up with something, there was, everything was new. Like it was, yeah yeah if he were to come up with what I came up with yesterday,
00:40:29
Speaker
or a couple days ago, it probably was new. If we do it, it's like, somebody's done it somebody's done it already. And there's, and it, and somebody's done something as you like quantum physics. Somebody's done something so much more complicated than what,
00:40:43
Speaker
what I could invent. It's ridiculous. So what you guys are really talking about is the low hanging fruit has been picked. And the only way to pick fruit is to specialize to a high degree now.
00:40:54
Speaker
Right. I think a generalist, being a generalist. Right. Well, well, like the the question that you had was like, how far removed are we from those conditions? And I think those conditions, like we're still living in the shadow of the Renaissance, right? Like that's the, that's the tradition that we all exist in is the Renaissance. And and I think there have been points closer to where we stand now that have been those same types of conditions for people. Like I think of inventors in the early 20th century. So you're just coming into this era of of viable mass production. And you have all of these people who are like late 1800s, early 1900s, whose job is quote unquote inventor.
00:41:34
Speaker
And it's just kind of crazy dude who like dabbles in a bunch of different shit and just like comes up with things that people might be able to use in a condition where now it can be mass produced to sell to huge quantities of people in the hopes that they make it rich.
00:41:48
Speaker
That's not that it's not a ah far leap from like the Renaissance man coming up with new gadgets or like learning all of these different disciplines and applying it to his painting.
00:41:59
Speaker
You know, on one, i have one thought that, that maybe contradicts this idea. To Da Vinci, this stuff maybe was quantum physics, right? I mean, because if we, you know, I and i came up with an idea a couple days ago, and I think it was my idea, but I'm in the 21st century, and I've seen lots of products around, and I've seen, I've experienced all kinds of modern technology, and all of that, whether I know it or not, has informed my creativity, right? He's living just beyond the Dark Ages, and
00:42:36
Speaker
So to him to invent a helicopter is kind of like me just inventing quantum physics in a way maybe. I don't know. So because it's all relative, right? He didn't have anything to base his ideas on, anything. No life experience. we' We're buried in it.
00:42:54
Speaker
So like, I can't really pat myself too much on the back for coming up with something that's already been done. That's that I think is pretty cool because I grew up surrounded by great technologies. So, you know, that's it. That's an interesting point. And I don't, I don't necessarily disagree, but even just thinking of the helicopter as the example in my head, I don't necessarily disagree. It's a fair point. Tepid agreement. No, no, no, no, It's not. Because hear what you're saying and I agree with you in principle. Jeff, agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm not even sure if I agree with me. I'm throwing out there. Thinking about his helicopter, right? What he had was wicker basket and an Archimedes screw on top. That was his helicopter design.
00:43:38
Speaker
So he didn't invent a new thing. He just took the Archimedes screw, which already existed for like 1,500 years or something. that's a good point. And then just put on top of the wicker basket. So he the thing. And he just went, that can probably push air.
00:43:50
Speaker
Eric, you know a lot about this fucking helicopter. I know a lot of bullshit about a lot of things, Paul. You know? Debate, she's the man. I know a lot about a couple of things. Take your pick. Those are the options. Where'd you get Archimedes' screw? What kind of bullshit? don't know about the Archimedes' screw? Come on. oh well like Where did you pull that from? that's Archimedes was an ancient Greek meditation. Is that a verb or a noun?
00:44:11
Speaker
The Archimedes screw is in the Kama Sutra. It's a a verb. It is a verb. Okay. I'm just saying that everybody's influenced by what comes before them. Right. And and so that's why I don't disagree with what you're saying.
00:44:29
Speaker
But I think we we kind of, when you have these historical figures, we assume that they invented things out of thin air when we just acknowledged that like...
00:44:40
Speaker
I don't know. They rediscovered Greco-Roman engineering. And I guarantee you that he had read about Archimedes crew at some point. He didn't invent the Archimedes crew. Okay. But on that point, I actually, i'm I'm actually just playing devil's advocate because I don't know what I think about this.
00:44:58
Speaker
But I honestly think that I could probably build a helicopter that flew. Maybe I'm delusional. but I think there given enough time, given enough time, I think I could figure it out.
00:45:11
Speaker
But I've seen him. Like, you know what I mean? So that that's the big difference, right? yeah um So I have often wondered because Da Vinci is my idol, man. i Why?
00:45:22
Speaker
Jeff, why? Because he's the he's the symbol of the Renaissance. Like he he is the ultimate... re He may actually may not be the ultimate Renaissance, man. I mean, Bernini was something else too, but... But I mean, he was like...
00:45:34
Speaker
Yeah, he's something else. Like, if you could smash those two together, it'd be the perfect human because Bernini was more of an aesthetic genius. We're building... like great buildings and great furniture and great sculpture and great everything. you know whereas Whereas as far as art is concerned, da Vinci was just a painter. and and Not just a painter, but he was that was the only art he did that I'm aware of. And he didn't do it that much. you know can you Can you give us the painter's inside view of how painters are in the field of painting see Renaissance painting? Yeah.
00:46:09
Speaker
and Renaissance art. What's what's the temperature among- It's not that good. long Oh, really? No, no. But that's because it kind of goes to what we're talking about. What did they have to look at, right?
00:46:21
Speaker
The 19th century was hands down the best century. And that was obviously 500 years later. so Hands down. terms of painting? In terms of painting, in my opinion. When you say it's not that good, it's not that good in in what way?
00:46:33
Speaker
They just hadn't advanced that much. it I mean, it was great for the time. it was a huge advancement from the 14th to the 15th and then from the 15th to the 16th. But then if you if you look at ah ah most living artists today can paint circles around any of those paintings. really? Oh, yeah.
00:46:50
Speaker
Oh, yeah. Dude, I went to the Louvre and I was bored out of my mind. Really? oh my gosh. Explain why. Jeff, we don't know any of this as woodworkers. I ran through it. i was i went to With with the jewels Eric. You bad boy.
00:47:13
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I went to the Musee, I never can pronounce that right, Musee d'Orsay, which is 19th century art mostly. Yeah. And, God, that was amazing. But then I go to Louvre and I ran through it. i was Jeff, tell me, explain. I don't understand why because to me, I can't i don't see it as any different. Can you explain what you're seeing as opposed to what a woodworker is seeing?
00:47:36
Speaker
um God, this is – Why is boring? Why is it boring? Well, first of all, part of it is the technology they had. What do you mean technology? 19th century used, they utilized photography.
00:47:52
Speaker
That was a huge jump in painting, huge. okay In the Renaissance, if you see a baby, it looked like an old man with short legs and arms. ah Right? It's one of my favorite things about Renaissance paintings. Yeah, it's so weird. blanking on the word right now, but it's one of my favorite words too. Really? ah There's a specific word for it. that Is it the homunculus?
00:48:13
Speaker
I have no idea. I got it i gotta to Google it real quick. The homunculus is that phenomenon where, yeah, Latin for little man. It means yeah they didn't know the babies that look like old people.
00:48:25
Speaker
Right. They didn't know how to, they they they couldn't capture moving subjects, right? Because they they didn't have a camera. There were some that did a decent job once you get up to Velasquez, but that's the, what is that? Velasquez would be the 16th, no, 17th century.
00:48:39
Speaker
um He was able to capture people in motion really well. But again, that was that was centuries later and and painting had advanced. But a couple things, just to keep just to keep it simple, a couple things were they were limited on paint color. Their paintings were very brown kind of and and in that sense kind of blah. They didn't have the richness of color that you get later.
00:49:01
Speaker
I mean, they did have some rich reds and blues, but not the diversity in color that we get later. Were they brown then or have they aged and mellowed over time? Well, I mean, they've cleaned a lot of these paintings too. So a lot of them have the varnish have been stripped. So I'm sure there's some of that, but okay but also, I mean, we've got so many more colors today and even in the 19th century, i have so many more colors. okay so But most of it was technique. Most of it was technique. they It just got better and better and better. they they In the Renaissance, every face looked like sort of a symbol of a face. It wasn't
00:49:35
Speaker
There's a term in painting called naturalism that came about in the 19th century where everything just, it was like it could walk right off the canvas. Wow. it It didn't look like that in the Renaissance. Every character looked sort of like an icon of a person. see. They didn't feel natural.
00:49:55
Speaker
Hence naturalism, right? There was no naturalism then. It was representational painting, realism, whatever you want to call it. But not until later, I would say at the earliest, in my opinion, like the 17th century, did it start to look real, you know?
00:50:11
Speaker
And, ah you know, and and to me, that's what I love. about, you know, more, not modern painting, but, you know, later painting. I see. It's just, gets so naturalistic. All right. A question, so, that I think a lot of the listeners could relate to, all right?
00:50:28
Speaker
Yeah. Give me your opinion of the Mona Lisa. You know, I was just there, and this is how much I cared about it. I didn't even get online. And i was just like, whatever, it's too long of a line, it's not worth it. The thing about the Mona Lisa is, Da Vinci was not that great of a painter.
00:50:46
Speaker
I'm going to get slaughtered if any artists listen to this. No, you're right. Carry love this. I love every minute of this But he was a great painter for his time. he had He didn't have all the advantages I have. He didn't have all the painters between the 1500s to now to learn from, right? he was He literally invented painting techniques that had never been used before. And Mona Lisa is one of those paintings that he applied some of these techniques to. So it's not a fair...
00:51:15
Speaker
Comparison. But apples to apples, if you put him next to ah Waterhouse painting from the 19th century, it's no comparison. I mean, Waterhouse would wipe the floor with him. But if you put Waterhouse in his century...
00:51:29
Speaker
It would be a tough – I don't know that Waterhouse could hang with him then you know because didn't – Waterhouse had all kinds of advantages and and hundreds of years of experience oh my god to lean on. you know Jeff, I wanted to ask this question of someone deep in the field for my entire life. I've always wanted to know how you guys all saw these paintings. Yeah. and Again, keep in mind they're amazing for what they are.
00:51:56
Speaker
right You have to put them in context. For the 14th and 15th centuries, they're amazing. how do you But for the 20th century, if I saw one painted today, I'd be like, a you know, not impressed.
00:52:10
Speaker
How do you feel about the Impressionists? It's a mixed bag for me, personally. Van Gogh, Monet. For the listeners, you don't know I mean There are some Monet paintings I like. I'm not a huge Impressionist fan, but... um You know, but that's just a matter of taste, I think. I'm not a huge fan. They sort of, I guess what i don't like about, when when I see an Impressionist painting I like, it's one that still has some um some level of academic understanding and it hasn't completely gone into the expressing your feelings and color and everything. I like i like some brains behind the emotions.
00:52:48
Speaker
You know what I mean? No, I do. do. Yeah. So coming back to our question of like, you know, we thought about the Renaissance and we think about where we are today. I had a, I had a phone call before we went on today with Jack, Jack Thomas, one of our rotating chairs that we use all the time, who is on the podcast all the time. And Jack was art professor in, as part of her, you know, history and, And I, she's like, oh boy, have a, she loves to, she said, have a B in my bonnet about this topic of like specialism. Take a shot, everybody.
00:53:23
Speaker
Specialist versus generalist and Renaissance, you know that. And one of the things she said, what I think was really interesting. And Jack, thank you again for having that phone call with me. You stirred up a lot of ideas is.
00:53:36
Speaker
Today, like we we value this idea of someone being a Renaissance person, right?
Education: Generalism vs Specialization
00:53:42
Speaker
it's That's a compliment. yeah But our society and the way we engineer school...
00:53:51
Speaker
does not create the conditions for it today. In fact, we set up society towards specialization. like Yeah, it's crazy. You might get a little bit of like, try this, try that in high school, right? You take electives, maybe that's a little try this, try that. But once you sort of get into college, specialization is it.
00:54:13
Speaker
You will specialize. And that's that. Like, it's as if society and capitalism... It's all set up for the for the specialization, which goes totally against the idea of like being broadly knowledgeable in a whole host of disciplines.
00:54:31
Speaker
What's your reaction to that? Well, actually, it brings up a thought I had a little while ago that I didn't get to comment about. And that is that I think – what was it you had asked me? and that That would probably be important. I can't remember. But that I think that in this day and age – we have advantages and we we have we can be more of a Renaissance man or woman today than ever before, but also we have disadvantages that make it possible for us to be less of a Renaissance person. And what I mean by that is, like, when i when you go home at night, you have two, and I'll get to the school thing in a minute, but it's related, I think.
00:55:10
Speaker
When you go home at you have a couple options. You can, last night, I spent the whole evening watching Eric. build ah build a crate. Yeah, it was nice.
00:55:20
Speaker
um And build a crate and and cut dovetails with that dreaded machine that he was using. but It's because he's a fucking puss. I got shit to do. He pussed out everyone. You know what it is? I can cut dovetails by hand so I don't fucking have to. Okay, pigeon whisperer. He can, man. He's the man. He's the man. That's why I follow you, which is so cool, by the way, to be talking you right now. I've totally been following you forever. but um And Paul, but here he knows that.
00:55:48
Speaker
but like So I spent last night watching him and I could have been just going through reels or Instagram and wasting my time. But to me, it's like we have so much information and you can you can have make a choice.
00:56:03
Speaker
You can exploit all that information. in order to become better at more things and more of a whole person, or you can literally waste your brain away day after day on just going through reels and shorts and watching kittens, you know, jump out of windows or shoot bazookas or something, you know?
00:56:25
Speaker
Like you have a choice. And I think a huge portion of our country and our world chooses the latter. Right. And I, and I do too sometimes and feel guilty about it, but I think we live in a time where we really can be really well rounded. And in fact, so this is where I get the school point.
00:56:44
Speaker
My kids aren't even going to college. Like I don't want them to go to college for that reason. And they're, they are becoming very well rounded people. And they'll figure it out. They'll figure out how to how to make money. And I'm not too concerned about it because they're going to be huge assets in in our community because they're going to have so many skills.
00:57:06
Speaker
and And I think more and more people are starting to notice that, especially because everything they teach you at school is on the Internet. It's like at this point, it's pointless. you know Unless you need a certain degree to get a certain job. right It's like everything is out there. And we have a choice. Do we want to take all that information and become a more whole person? Or do we want to flip through reels and shorts every evening and eat ice cream? you know like What are we going to do?
00:57:34
Speaker
There's... There's so much in there. i agree with everything you just said, but like there's so much in there to digest about like to make a decision about who we are as individuals and how we want to spend our time on the planet. Yeah, because as as you were talking about um everything that we have access to and how we want to spend our time and and I don't understand why everybody isn't taking advantage of all of this information and resources that we have available to us.
00:58:02
Speaker
Um, I, how many artists do you think Jeff were, um, like are considered Renaissance artists, Renaissance people? There's just but a few hundred, a few thousand, like how many? The only one, the only one that I know that I personally really think is a whole Renaissance artist is Sean Cheatham.
00:58:22
Speaker
Okay. Okay. and um, I'm sure there are others. Um, But the only one that i know for sure is like the kind of guy, the kind of artist that everything he touches, he does well. Everything he does, he does well. So that's one out of eight and a half billion people on the planet? Well, out of artists, what is there? Great. Let's say that quote unquote master artists, let's say there are 5,000 of them on the planet.
00:58:49
Speaker
Okay, so that one out of five thousand that means 99.8% of the human population is just like chilling at the end of the day. They're just fucking tired when they get home from work. No, there may be others. I just don't know about it. and But I mean, ah yeah, he's he's one.
00:59:06
Speaker
I think that it takes... I agree with you. Sean is an incredible artist. um and and just a really like we We had him on recently and just an incredible... interesting person to converse with for a while. um But but I think that's kind of rare, like the way that his brain works. I think it's kind of that's what I'm saying. I think he's yeah one of the only he's the only one I know of. Well, and I don't I don't know how much of that is by choice from people or just like they only have the capacity to to like like you were saying earlier, like by the time you get home after 10 hours of painting, You're mentally, spiritually, emotionally exhausted and you need to take some time to recoup and your recuperation process may look like I'm going to dive into YouTube, learn some shit, go jump in the garage and wire up some outlets. Some other people might just be like, I'm going to go like sit on the back porch with a cocktail and hang out with my wife or my husband for a few hours.
01:00:03
Speaker
well Why would anyone do that? Why would somebody do that? Jeff. It's just the different wiring of the brain. You know? No, I think you're right, especially when you think of when we talk about someone like Sean. Sean is...
01:00:19
Speaker
He's literally a genius. So it's, we don't all have the choice to be Sean Cheatham. I mean, cause he doesn't have to learn this stuff. He just does it well. Yeah. Right.
01:00:29
Speaker
And so, I mean, he made a chess board a while back for some actress who I can't remember her name, but she's, you would know her. It was, she's famous. And I'm like, you freaking kidding me. He's like I'm like, you've never made a chess board before. He's like, yeah, but I told her I could do it. And now I did it. And it was so beautiful. All the chess pieces were so gorgeous. Like every chess piece was like a sculpture out of, I think he made it out of African blackwood or something and some other son of a bitch. And have you seen it? youre weight you're You're shaking your head. You've seen it. I talked to Sean every day in that lately. Cause we're working on a thing together. Yeah. He nailed it the first time.
01:01:04
Speaker
And you know, there's not a lot of people like that. So granted, granted there is certain level of genius in a Renaissance man like Sean, um But but I think that everyone can have a taste of it. Like it doesn't not everyone's going to be have the aptitude that Sean has and and everything he touches turns to gold that that.
01:01:24
Speaker
Yeah, I think that's very rare. i yeah. And again, I'm not disagreeing with you. i I'm not defending people scrolling on their phones for four hours every night and wasting their fucking evenings and not doing anything productive with their time. That's a judgment, to be fair. Right. Oh, I'll judge the shit out of that. That's a value judgment. yeah I don't i don't give a fuck. I will judge that all day long. Yeah. um But the other point about like how our schooling system is set up, I think definitely in part is due to what we were talking about earlier, which is just like shit has got more advanced over the the centuries. And so you need more time to learn the things that will pay the bills. That's one thing. But also, yes.
01:02:03
Speaker
In, and I just Googled this during Da Vinci's lifetime, round about 1500. Can you take a guess as to what the rough world population was? Uh, 3 million.
01:02:15
Speaker
Jesus Christ. That's like, that's like the size of Italy. I have no idea. Paul, any guesses? Uh, I'm going to say, wait, it's, um, I could exponentially walk back to 8 billion. 3 million people. I never did well at the jelly beans in the jar guess either. Ha! I'm like, there's six of them. It's a five gallon bucket, you moron. Like, oh I don't know. i don't know. Eric, what? A hundred million to three hundred million? rough Roughly somewhere between 450 and 550 million. Okay. So so ah compared to the eight billion people that are on the show, there were three seven people in the year. Three jelly beans. That's too funny. But here's my point.
01:03:01
Speaker
Like if you extrapolate that, I don't know. What's what's that? Can you extrapolate downward or is extrapolate only to make bigger? No, you don't even know. OK, all right. Do whatever you want with it. so So if you extrapolate that down to the size of like the the cities in the countries that we're talking about during the Renaissance, largely northern Italy, these are towns of like a few thousand people. yeah And so you you would presumably need people to do multiple things in order to achieve anything in this town. Right. Like nobody's going to be exclusively a school teacher. They're going be a school teacher and a farmer and like a volunteer engineer, or a ditch digger for their church when they're laying a foundation and like carry stones over for the Masons. They're going to do a bunch of shit just because there's less people to do things and they need everybody to pitch in a little bit more.
01:03:54
Speaker
oh yeah Yeah, but that you're, okay, we're talking about two different things though maybe here. Granted, if you're a brain surgeon, right, or you're a rocket scientist, going to have limited time to become them good at everything, ah many other things, right? Because those things are such hard, difficult sciences and to be to be relevant in your field.
01:04:19
Speaker
But I'm mostly thinking about creative people, right? So to create the the the um arts and crafts, right? That's the thing that puzzles me more than anything is – um It's just, i i just find it all so interesting and it's hard to imagine just being focused on one.
01:04:41
Speaker
Well, Jeff, then someone says to you, well, society rewards specialization in the arts. Like yeah you have to make a name for yourself. You have to go to school, make enough ah paintings or whatever you choose to do. It's true. get known.
01:04:53
Speaker
You have to become a known entity and get cred in your field. You have to earn the respect and the cred of of the field, of the public. You have to get known for the thing, right? That takes a long period of time. So people would say, well, Jeff, I mean, it's not that I didn't want to do those things. It's that to earn that cred and to build that that customer base took me 40 years.
01:05:16
Speaker
That's why. Yeah, that's true. That's probably why. No, no. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I'm not, you know, I mean, but I think that's what a lot people would say. I think you nailed it.
01:05:27
Speaker
No, I think that's what a lot people would say. No, it is probably what a lot of people would say. And by the way, I think if, and this is a point Jack brought up, she goes, If you do 20 different things early on in your career, let's say when you're going to school, they think you're unfocused.
01:05:44
Speaker
ah you're unfocused You are not That is so dumb. You're dilly-dallying. don't get that. You're not serious. You're dilly-dallying, right? you You need to buckle down and focus. It's actually frowned upon, but – She draws the distinction that once you make it in a field, let's say you, Jeff, like you've made it as ah as a painter, right? You're there.
01:06:09
Speaker
People will pay handsomely for your work. You're well regarded. You have a school. Now you've made it. Well, when you try other things, it's not Jeff's unfocused. It's not Jeff's dilly-dallying and wasting his time. Jeff is choosing to explore other mediums.
01:06:25
Speaker
Oh, I see. So if you do this as a student, you're unfocused and you're like fucking around with your life and you're not sure. But once you get that cred and earn that badge, right now, it's it's seen very differently. Oh, Jeff's exploring his next medium. So I think, you know, that was a yeah really interesting point.
01:06:45
Speaker
I was like, wow, that rings really true. You know, when I was in school, I was always the last student done with a test. Always. And my teachers were always so frustrated with me because I would literally turn stuff but in blank because I'd just be daydreaming the whole time.
01:07:03
Speaker
And there was one point, you guys, you guys from back East, right? Yeah. Do you remember the Iowa tests? ah Yes, I do. The Iowa tests. They were like placement tests in elementary school. You're probably too young, Eric, but, um, the, I, ah yeah. So I was in the third grade.
01:07:19
Speaker
And I would just turn everything in empty, blank, even tests. I couldn't care less, you know? and And of course, I was always the last one to turn it in because I wasn't even doing it.
01:07:31
Speaker
And then at the end of the year, my mother came to my teacher and said, hey, um or my teacher came to my mother and said, hey, he's gonna fail. i don't know what we're gonna do. gonna to hold him back. My mom's devastated. She's like, we can't hold him back. That'll ruin his life. You know, he'll always have that stigma.
01:07:46
Speaker
So she said, well, if he does okay on the Iowa tests, we'll, we'll, you know, push him forward. So my mom, um, of course she tried to prepare me the best she could. I remember what we did, but, and then we took the Iowa tests and I remember just someone just snapping their fingers and trying to keep me focused the whole time.
01:08:06
Speaker
And, uh, and then, ah excuse me, I got to call for the,
01:08:12
Speaker
and, um, And then I ended up grading at like sixth grade level, but I had to have someone like sitting there on Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, focus, Jeff, focus, focus.
01:08:23
Speaker
But then once I was, you know, three years ahead, they were like, okay, we got, we can't, can't hold it back. Right. But the only way I could show what I knew was if someone was like, Jeff, Jeff, pay attention, Jeff, pay attention, Jeff, pay attention. Wow.
01:08:36
Speaker
And, um, and that's the way my whole life has been. Like, it's just, I am always looking what's next to me. Like, what, what is that? Ooh, that's interesting. It's like, I'm like a raccoon just obsessed with all the shiny objects everywhere. And, um, And, you know, eric andla yeah Eric, I swear that's Eric.
01:08:55
Speaker
Yeah. that's eric cant Can relate hard, buddy. Yeah. And it's but it's served me well because, you know, I i don't I i so like sort of it was sort of an accident, I suppose, um because it just sort of put me in the place where I'm at today because somehow I landed on my feet.
01:09:14
Speaker
even though I was never a good student for that reason. um i mean, I remember I was taking the ACTs and I got through the science and math, which I'm which i'm interested in, very interested in science and math. So I got through that, no problem.
01:09:28
Speaker
Then I had to do the reading comprehension. I read the first paragraph of the first thing and it was a bunch of stuff I couldn't care less about. So I saw someone kicking a ball around outside and next thing you know, an hour and a half went by and I'd been staring at that dude kicking a ball around for an hour and a half.
01:09:43
Speaker
And the alarm goes off and I turned the ACTs and I couldn't, I didn't even care enough to take it again. I'm like, whatever, you know, it is what it is And, and I didn't even know the time went by. i was out like a light. I was just gone.
01:09:59
Speaker
And another, another time I was not to tell you all these stories, how stupid I am, but, but it's to make, I'm gonna make a point when I tell you this last thing, but I had a job as a waiter when I was 16 and,
01:10:11
Speaker
It was only after this one thing happened that I got fired. But this thing happened over and over and over again. This was just the worst case of it.
Focus and Learning Styles: A Personal Reflection
01:10:18
Speaker
I went up to a table of eight. I asked for their order. And then I went back to the kitchen and I didn't remember how I got there.
01:10:26
Speaker
And I was like, okay, I'm in the kitchen. i vaguely remember standing in front of a table with people. I don't know how I got here. Oh my goodness. Okay. But the whole time i i swear to you, I was thinking about what I was going to build when I got home.
01:10:41
Speaker
While they were talking to me and giving me their order, all I could think about was what I was going to build when I got home, the project I had in my head. and And I thought about that all the way back to the kitchen, and I didn't even remember going to the kitchen because I was so in my head.
01:10:55
Speaker
eric And then my boss said to me, he said to me a couple days later he's like, Jeff, you're such a nice kid. He's like, can you just quit? Like, cause you suck at this. He's like, I don't want to fire you and mess up your, you know, your resume, whatever. He's like, can you just quit? And I was like, okay, I'll put in my two weeks. He said, no, you can go home now.
01:11:15
Speaker
And I've never been good at a job. Never. Because I can't focus unless I'm interested. And so what happened, the point being, that I can get, I just want and want and want to learn certain things.
01:11:29
Speaker
And I can i just hyper focus on those things and do really well at those things. But if I'm not interested, forget about it. So for me personally, school sucked. It's like, don't even tell me to sit in a chair and listen to all the nonsense I'm never going to use again. I don't want anything to do with it.
01:11:44
Speaker
Just put me in a place where I can do something that I'm interested in and I know I'll excel. But that wasn't school. I was not remotely interested in anything at school. This so speaks to a much bigger issue about learning styles and brain yeah wiring. Eric, is this like exactly like. Oh yeah, that that was 1000% my childhood. Like I would never do any, like I didn't even try to do the fucking work because I didn't care.
01:12:09
Speaker
Yeah, same. Because I knew I wasn't going to finish it. I was going to get bored halfway through. Or if there was a reading, like, God forbid they fucking give me a reading assignment that was like 10 or more pages. That's like night of reading. Oh, no way. Like no chance I'm going to get that done. No, one page would be a night of reading. I read it 500 times. And then I get to college and they're like, you're going to have to have the next 50 pages read so we can discuss a comp in class tomorrow. And I was like, you go fuck yourself. There's 0% chance that's going to happen. 50 pages of reading? That's three months for me, dog. What are we doing? Okay, but if it was a book on woodworking that taught you something you wanted to know about woodworking, you'd read
01:12:48
Speaker
Exactly. That's how I was. That's how I am. You two are fucking birds of a feather. I also know that I'm a physical learner rather than like I can take in information and apply it if I'm interested in it. But if I can physically do the thing, like it'll exist in my body in its own awareness for the rest of my life.
01:13:05
Speaker
Yeah. You know, so you know it's, it's school sucks for people like us. Yeah, for sure. It does. for Sure. So I, well, can I just say for a moment, I'm clearly the black sheep here. I love, well, you're a scientist. I don't know how you pulled it off. Like I don't get brains like yours. Well, I don't get it.
01:13:24
Speaker
I guess the, the, the, you guys, you, you illustrated that so well. It's like, I was sitting in your skin, imagining how you felt, but, but I,
01:13:36
Speaker
I don't quite relate to it. Like when I would see something or be reading something, i would it doesn't almost didn't even matter what it was. I found it interesting somehow.
01:13:48
Speaker
It could have been anything. that's great. That's interesting. Oh, I wonder why that is. I wish I had that brain, man. It almost didn't matter. And like, just as ah as ah as a counterpoint to specialization being sort of a bad thing, for me, specialization is everything in science. We don't need generalists. The low hanging fruit has been picked.
01:14:10
Speaker
You need... really deep concentrated thought for decades, understanding what's been done before, but going even deeper to find those, the, the much higher hanging fruit on the tree of science, like all the low hanging stuff. Not even, not even the fruit, but you just want to get the stem and someone else will get the skin. Someone else will get the pulp. Exactly. Exactly. but crazy jeff Jeff, there is generalists are not getting low hanging fruit in the sciences anymore. It's all been picked. It requires specialization and specialization is rewarded handsomely. And not only that,
01:14:47
Speaker
But if you can specialize in two different disciplines and combine them, that's even cooler, right? Because there's so few people. It's a little bit of both, right? It's a little bit of renaissance-y kind of, right? But but you have to go deep in both. You can't be general in both. You have to go deep.
01:15:02
Speaker
So my job is like, have a PhD in biology, but then it was combined with math and computer science to to form this new field we call systems biology or quantitative systems pharmacology, QSP. And it that There was some low hanging fruit there because so few people had the dual skill sets to pick it. But specialization in the sciences is handsomely rewarded and necessary. So it's it's weird. It's like in some cases, being a generalist is the best thing. Think about C-suites, like CEOs and managers at big companies.
01:15:38
Speaker
They have to have some specialization, but they have to be a generalist. They have to understand people. They have to read people and have a social intelligence and know how to motivate and know how to solve problems and think about finance and budgets and and marketing and sales and you know company outlook and shares and stock market. like They have to know have their fingers in 20 different things, like generalists.
01:16:01
Speaker
to to perform well, managers, where and teachers. I think teachers is another example of where generalization is important. Let's say you have to have a core skill as a teacher, but to relate to, Eric, maybe you could comment on this. Actually, both of you are teachers, sorry. um Teachers, in some ways, being a generalist is is helpful because there's different learning styles and knowing different topics is important. You can't only be able to teach one topic. Sometimes you have to like give an example or an analogy across multiple you know multiple disciplines. And just having a more general understanding as a teacher is an asset.
01:16:38
Speaker
in addition to a core. So I guess I just see it's sort of case dependent on what field you're in. Like certain fields require deep, deep specialization, aeronautical engineering, um you know, science the sciences and some of the engineering and some actually like management and corporate really need some general, some some degree of generalization to do well.
01:17:03
Speaker
Well, Paul, as you were talking about that, I was trying to distinguish like, what the value of being a specialist in the sciences versus in the arts is. and That's a great question. In in the sciences,
01:17:17
Speaker
it's generally accepted that there is a singular correct answer. And so when you're trying to find the answer to very complicated questions, you have to be hyper-specialized in understanding all of the different criteria that get you to hopefully the right answer. Whereas in the arts, there is no correct answer. That's a great, yeah. That's an interesting point. What you are doing is creating one possible solution to a dilemma um among the people and in the people, the people that you just described in the C-suites, like when you're dealing with people and your job is managing people, there is very rarely one correct answer. That's a great analogy, Eric. Sociology is, you know, like understanding the psychology of humans. And it's the same in teaching, right? Like i think to your point,
01:18:06
Speaker
My experience teaching is you do have to have your specialization. You have to know the subject matter inside and out.
The Role of Generalists and Specialists
01:18:13
Speaker
Yeah. Because once you know that and you don't have to think about it, then you can focus on putting yourself in the headspace of the student and where they're at. All the other things, right? Yeah, but that requires understanding how humans work. Good teachers are just naturally gifted at understanding other people.
01:18:31
Speaker
Have you guys... Oh, sorry. I mean, cut you No, please, please. Have you guys heard that theory? It's probably nonsense, but it's interesting nonetheless. Have you heard that theory that the ah people who built the pyramids might have been living in a time of a high and sophisticated technology, and then eventually that technology was lost, and and then it had to be reestablished and and grow again to where we are today? Have you heard that theory?
01:18:59
Speaker
I mean, i've heard aliens, but... Well, it's an interesting theory nonetheless, because it's... I mean, I don't think it's likely to be true, but the reason I mention it is because I believe, and I've also heard it said, that if we... If all of us... If if let's say 90% the population died tomorrow, right?
01:19:21
Speaker
maybe as a meteor or something, 90% the population died tomorrow. There is not one person on the planet, one single person on the planet that could build a cell phone or or put together a computer or make a chip or even make a capacitor or a resistor or a diode or whatever. Like, like there's not one person that could do those things. There's one person that could, or,
01:19:43
Speaker
the the the materials in them and then there's another person that can put them together another person that you know what i mean there's all these different specializations that are required I mean I heard it said once that just to build a cell phone there's like thousands of different specializations to get that thing together yeah it's like a pharmaceutical drug to get one drug to market it's like five to ten thousand scientists of all different that's great so so To your point, it's like it's just been built in the way where the sciences are so complex that that it's almost impossible to have one brain right capable of doing all of the things. If you could build a cell phone, you would be the most well-rounded person in the world because there are there are so many things you have to know to put that thing together from just raw materials. Yeah.
01:20:35
Speaker
Right. And so, so obviously in the sciences, it's a whole different thing. Like it is, it is, it's far too complex. It's super interesting. Like how the science is, you can see the need for specialization and why so many specialists in a, in a series, like a series of them is, is important, but in the arts, Eric, I love what you said. Like there's, there's no, there's no right answer here.
01:21:00
Speaker
And honestly, then it's simpler. In a way. In a way, it's harder. but Well, no, and i wouldn't say it's harder. and It's... The arts are a one-man pursuit. Let's put it that way.
Redefining the Renaissance Person
01:21:14
Speaker
Whereas sciences are a team effort. I just don't.
01:21:18
Speaker
There's, are like i said- Are the arts a one-man pursuit or a one-woman pursuit? Are they Well, they don't have to be. I mean, you could obviously collaborate. I suppose they typically are. Yeah, they but they can be. i guess yeah I guess what I mean to say is they absolutely can be a single individual's pursuit, whereas the scientists have been have evolved to a degree that they that they just can't. and They just can't be anymore. Yeah. So to be a well-rounded artist is a whole different thing than to be a specialist in 15 different things in your field, Paul.
01:21:48
Speaker
um What exactly do you do again? I forgot. You're like a chemical engineer. I do. I do. covid No, I do. That's what tell people. Oh my God.
01:21:59
Speaker
We build mathematical models. Right, right. remember that.
01:22:10
Speaker
what might happen in the real world as like predictive tools and that requires a lot of different expertise and and no one person knows it all you know that's why our company has some biologists some math some math people, some computer science people, and we form teams because it takes a lifetime. to it takes there's there's We don't live long enough to become specialists in all of the things.
01:22:34
Speaker
So we have to work together. It's too complex. It takes too long. to be Just to get a PhD and get enough experience to do the biology well, you're looking at 20 to 30 years post-college.
01:22:48
Speaker
We don't live long enough. That's a different thing. It's almost this conversation has to be It has to be narrowed down to just the arts and crafts. I mean, it's too complex outside of that.
01:22:59
Speaker
Okay, but Eric. Eric, I got to ask you, did you also zone out for a second when he started describing his job? because I zone out half the time he's talking. No, not because you're not interesting, but because I didn't understand it. So you were describing it and I don't understand what you're saying. So I just went to like, I i started thinking about kittens shooting bazookas again. I was like, what? What?
01:23:23
Speaker
Oh my God, I hate both of you. you lost You lost me. You're far too smart. And I'm just like, no, it's not that. It's that you're not interested, Jeff. No, it is interesting. i I genuinely just don't understand it. i Jeff, it's I have heard him articulate what he does for a living.
01:23:40
Speaker
many dozens of times. And when I said that I tell people that he solved COVID, I'm not lying because I still don't fucking understand what he does. Anyway, anyway, Eric, would you consider yourself, Eric, do you consider yourself a generalist or a specialist?
01:23:58
Speaker
I don't know, man. Like, so as are you a Renaissance person? I think that's,
01:24:06
Speaker
That's a title that I don't feel confident in giving myself because I feel like that comes with a certain level of like, I like to smell my own farts that, you know, let's rephrase it it. Would do, what, what is your goal? Would you like to see yourself as as well, well, no, no, no. What I've been thinking about through this conversation, um And and i've I've kind of tried to get at this a couple of times, and I've seen you both balk and push back against me, is it seems that we all have a bias that when we say, and maybe this is a fair bias, that when we talk about Renaissance people,
01:24:50
Speaker
We mean people who are involved in multiple creative disciplines specifically. So if they're doing things that are non-creative and they have high ah competency levels in other areas, we don't necessarily see them as a Renaissance person. Give give an example.
01:25:06
Speaker
Well, so I'm thinking about, you know, like, let's say let's say a guy like Paul, not Paul, but a guy like Paul works in the sciences and and he has some woodworking ah hobbies. And then but he also likes to fish and he's a really competent fisherman. And he ah also is like a great fucking cook.
01:25:26
Speaker
And he also like likes to build ah tree houses with his for for his kids. like He has this this disparate set of skills. um but But because he's not painting and sculpting out of clay and and doing mosaics, we're not necessarily considering him a renaissance, Oh, because fishing and cooking is not. Yeah, because those because those aren't those aren't creative outlets. They're not. or they They're not Da Vinci's outlets. Right, right. Da Vinci sort of created the mold.
01:25:59
Speaker
so So if you're not a painter, a sculptor, and a helicopter designer, then ah you know then you're not a Renaissance person? like i disagree Well, I think you're right. that That's the stereotype.
01:26:14
Speaker
Because I've never heard someone call someone who has had 15 jobs in 15 years doing 15 different things, a Renaissance person. Right, but but we even said it, like, Paul said it yeah in the beginning of the episode. In the cold open, he used the term jack of all trades. Jack of all trades, master of none. You don't use that phrase about somebody who dabbles in painting and sculpture and mosaics and music. You call them a Renaissance man. But the guy who knows how to wire an outlet, plumb a faucet,
01:26:44
Speaker
frame a new wall, put in a new window, you call him a jack of all trades. Interesting. So there is a clear bias there. There's like an elitism to that. Yeah, absolutely there is. Huh. Well, not necessarily. It depends on how you think of the Renaissance. Because the Renaissance man, i think, is just a... it's it's It's calling on the history of the Renaissance. That's all. and So if you see the Renaissance as higher than contemporary life, then I suppose it's sort of pretentious, but...
01:27:13
Speaker
i don't I don't know. i mean i see I see what you mean, though, Eric. I do. This is part of why I'm trying to... like I hesitate to say i am a Renaissance man. um i have I have disparate interests, and I try to explore all of them.
01:27:29
Speaker
But like I guess that's ah that's a fair pushback, Jeff, to say Has anyone referred to you, Eric, as a Renaissance man? Besides Paul. Paul has. I don't know that they have to my face. Paul told me you one.
01:27:44
Speaker
Jeff, have you ever been called? Oh, I get it all the time. oh All the time, it's because I fit that mold. He's spot on. Is it because you're you're a painter primarily and then you have other creative interests? No, you you are you hit it spot on. I get called it Probably on a weekly basis from somebody. Wow. And it's, ah I'm not saying I agree with it. That's my, that that is, I want to be like, I want to be the person that can build anything.
Challenges of Becoming Well-Rounded
01:28:13
Speaker
ah But not for the label. It's because it's a love of... it's Right, right. So I'm flattered when people say you are the guy that can build anything. And to me, that's what I hear when they say you're Renaissance man.
01:28:25
Speaker
I'm like, at least there's there's one person this you know this month that thinks I can build anything. like It's a compliment whether I agree with it or not. I think of it as a compliment.
01:28:35
Speaker
But I would say personally, and I think I've called i' told you this, Paul, I would say you are one. I think if... If you, if in my personal opinion, this is just my definition, if you were good at if you are really good, really good at two or three things, or i had some maybe three things, like, God, that to me,
01:28:58
Speaker
That's quite an accomplishment, you know, because it's so rare to be really, really good at at several things. So, you know, don't you think?
01:29:10
Speaker
I do. I do. I think that's that's our modern version of it. And I've been called that. I've been called that. quite a few times. And I think it's because I, will like you have the painting reminiscent of the Renaissance. I'm the scientist who likes to do art, right? Exactly. Science and art are two of those magic ingredients that we think about with Leonardo da Vinci and that kind of shit. and And, and today because of economic pressures of making a living and doing one thing just to pay the bills and we get so tired. And like Jeff, you made a great point about social media being a distraction. ah It's hard to learn multiple disciplines at a high level.
01:29:46
Speaker
I think everything's working against us in some ways. I mean, the information's there. I know the information's like it's never been – there's never been more information than there is now to learn. It's amazing. But the problem is we have socioeconomic pressures. And the algorithms that are designed by scientists to steal our attention and the news is trying to steal our attention and make us fearful. So we always watch it like all these things are pulling at us to take our time away from these other disciplines, you know, learning other disciplines, which is and at a high level, it takes a long period of time.
01:30:22
Speaker
Can can I ask one more question? So we I feel like we've covered being a Renaissance man ah pretty thoroughly, but we never really came back to it. Maybe this a question we can end on and maybe even dive into in the after show more, but we never came back to the pigeonholing aspect of it Oh, that's true. And, and I'm very curious about how you feel about that, Jeff, because I'll just say for me now, I made the choice to become a furniture maker because I fell in love with the thing. So we, we did have two different approaches to that, but even at the times where I get a little tired of it and i want to branch out into sculpture or I play with clay or I play with tile or stone, whatever it is. Um,
01:31:06
Speaker
I see furniture and I see content as the the the specialized vehicle that allows me the free time to have those hobbies.
01:31:18
Speaker
Right. Like that's that's really what they are. And those hobbies all feed back into my practice as a as a furniture designer and maker. But but that is the thing that pays the bills so that I have both the physical time and the mental space to dabble in those other areas. So I don't feel pigeonholed by it so much as I see it as kind of like the thing that unlocks the door to those other opportunities.
01:31:43
Speaker
Yeah, so so. How do you feel pigeonholed by painting? Or do you feel pigeonholed by it? I'm assuming that you do, given that that was the question that we entered the show with. I think he was saying he sees it in other people and doesn't understand why they go for it. Okay.
01:31:57
Speaker
ah Jeff, you you clarify. Yeah, and well, and I'll clarify what I said earlier, too. When I say don't understand, I literally don't understand. It's not like, how could you? It's not a judgment on their character. It's that it's like...
01:32:11
Speaker
It's like, I don't relate to other cultures. I'm American. If I were to go, if I were to go to India, I wouldn't understand their culture. It's just a different, it's not that mine's better or they're, you know, it's just, I don't understand it.
01:32:23
Speaker
It's not what I'm used to. That's what I mean by that. Um, the pigeonhole thing. So yeah, that's an interesting question. Um, there are days well, let's put it this way I'm very blessed. Um,
01:32:40
Speaker
Because my the way I described myself earlier and being endlessly distracted with all these different things that I want to do, I started that from day one and I kind of built that lifestyle from day one.
01:32:54
Speaker
And somehow I made a living despite that, which is a huge blessing. um So on one hand, I've created a situation for myself that's very much like yours, Eric, where painting does feed the other hobbies.
01:33:11
Speaker
But on the other hand, um not they they even painting itself, except for the fact that I'm, you know quote unquote, known as a painter,
01:33:24
Speaker
Even painting painting itself doesn't trump any of the other things in any way. it's so I still feel i feel like just as much of a maker as I do a painter. So I don't feel pigeonholed in that way. The only time I feel the slightest bit pigeonholed is the day I wake up in the morning and I just know I should be painting because i have a family.
01:33:48
Speaker
and and And that's the day, and not because I don't
Passion, Obligation, and Identity in Creative Work
01:33:52
Speaker
love painting. I love painting. But that's the day I wake up in the morning and I've got something else eating at my brain going, but today I have this other project I really want to be doing.
01:34:03
Speaker
um And that's the only time I feel pigeonholed when it's like, I don't want to paint today. um but But as a whole, in general, over my whole life, i' I'm very happy to be doing everything I'm doing. I love painting. I love, quote, being a painter.
01:34:23
Speaker
um But, you know, there's always those days. I mean, i was there's always those days. I feel like that's just life, man. Like, there some days you wake up and you're just like, you're like, fuck, man. All I want to do today is like bake some fucking banana bread and just, yeah you know, but like, I gotta, I gotta be an adult. Like I got steak every night. Right. Right. Right. You can't love everything. And my daughter just said to me recently, she's like, do you always love painting dad? And I'm like, no,
01:34:51
Speaker
no Because I'm really not loving it right now. And I'm like, yeah, it's completely normal. that That's not the human brain. ah like we call that like hedonic adaptation where like you think, like oh, when I get this, I'll be happy. And so like someone wins the lottery. And then they find yeah like a month later, they're back to their steady state. We call that hedonic adaptation. It's just how your brain works. That is a human brain chemistry thing.
01:35:14
Speaker
And so yeah you're not going to be in this in this blissful, joyful state all the time. Oh my God, unless you're on drugs. I was going to say, that's why they invented opium, isn't it? Yeah, which totally rewires the circuitry. Eric, just for a minute so we can offend all of our listeners or at least a good portion of them. um You know, one of the things about pigeonholing that I've always observed in the woodworking world, and please please comment so I'm not the lone asshole here. Yeah. Are you going to talk about river tables? What the fuck's up with bowl turners?
01:35:44
Speaker
Okay. Turners like whoever's a turner out there. Look, I love you dearly and I'm sorry, but I, it's like, it's become such a fucking thing it's like oh i'm a bowl turner and they turn hundreds of one thing upon hundreds bowls and they're like yeah but you can see there's a two degree change on the flange here and i did the push cut and you can see like 80 20 bevel and i'm like are you fucking for real right now like i can't see that are you you should have logan you should have opened with that paul
01:36:17
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should have opened with that because that's the point. That's what I'm talking about. That's the thing I don't understand. How can you be so obsessed for 30, 40, 50 years with one object? it's like It's like saying, I don't get it. You're looking at the moon. Do you see that like little? like no No, I don't see it. What the fuck are you doing? Why don't you go make something else other than bowl? But aren't you a little bit envious of them though?
01:36:45
Speaker
that At just the the ability to just find joy in the simplest thing. Actually, jeff Jeff, I don't know if it's joy or fear of change. Well, yeah we're talking about two different people in those circumstances. It could be, yeah, you could have one you could have one or the other. You absolutely have the people who just become hyper obsessed with the process and love doing the same yeah guys thing every day in and out and their mind can wander creativity like and creativity doesn't bring them like creative and exploration brings them anxiety. Yes. Yes. Not having the answer brings them anxiety. They know how to turn bowls and they know bowls will sell. And that's part of it.
01:37:21
Speaker
yeah If you, if you enjoy standing at the lathe, we've talked about this many time, Paul. The scale of the object directly determines the price point, not the quality of the work. People will pay more for larger objects, period. People will pay, Jeff, I assume this is true in paintings. People will pay more for larger paintings, right? So if you want to be at a lathe all day and you want to actually make money, you might as well turn bowls because people going pay more for a bowl than they will for a pen, full stop. Do people buy wooden bowls? What you do with them? All the time. Oh, I All the time. Oh, I have bought five or six bowls. Yeah. Yep.
01:37:55
Speaker
Yep. Salad serving bowls. Wait a minute, you're the people that you just bad mouthed? Well, it's not that their product isn't good. It's just, I don't know how they sit there and do that. said them at the craft fair to talk the price down. That's what he does. He's like, what's with you people making bowls all the time? Just give that to me. It's worthless. Just give it to all the bowl turners out there. I'm so sorry I singled you out. But I don't know how you make hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of bowls in a row. I'm sorry, but I love you. But to your other point, I think there are people who refuse to change a thing. And refuse might not be the right word, but who are afraid to change a thing. Yeah, avoid changing things for fear. Well, for fear of the market not responding positively. Actually, Eric, I think it's deeper than that. And Jeff, please comment. It's like, why do we avoid trying new things? This is one of my favorite questions. Like fear of failure, is it? Is it fear of economic ruin?
01:38:50
Speaker
Is it that um it's uncomfortable? I don't know, because I don't know what I'm doing. um Like fear of the unknown. I think, i well, I agree with Eric that you can't generalize. Every person's different. There might be five ball turners that stick with it for 40 years for five different reasons. But one of the reasons that maybe hasn't been mentioned and may or may not be valid, but I think it is because I've met people like this and and you know I think it's great.
01:39:18
Speaker
They're not particularly creative people. And then one day they discover they can do a thing. oh and they And it gives them so much satisfaction because they've learned to do this thing.
01:39:30
Speaker
And it's just, they just developed this pride in this thing. And moving on to something else is not necessary for them because they've discovered the thing that they can do. And they didn't know they could. And they didn't even know they could do it. And they were more of the can't. Maybe they were more innately the can't people. And then one day they discovered that they can do something really cool.
01:39:51
Speaker
And so they attached themselves to it. It's part becomes their identity. I do great. That's a big part of it. Yeah. And so they just don't move on. It's an identity thing. I think a lot of it. I had a friend many years ago who she was a phenomenal baker, but all she ever made was chocolate chip cookies.
01:40:10
Speaker
what How are you a phenomenal baker when you make one thing? Well, I mean, she made great fucking cookies, but she she would bake these cookies. But so that was my question. that was I was. oh I was always very curious. Oh, his headphones popped up. Paul, I'll ask you. i was always very curious about whether or not she was going to branch out into other things. And she was always like, well, why would everybody loves my chocolate chip cookies? And she had baked other things that I've tried and she was good. But it's the identity part of it. She became yeah known as the girl who made phenomenal chocolate chip cookies. And so if she took a risk and made macarons and they weren't good. At her Atelier. At the Atelier. Then that that identity of being a good baker is challenged.
01:41:00
Speaker
that's So there is that fear. is there That's a real thing. Fear of losing your status. Yeah, your reputation for sure. Yeah, that's a real thing. And there's in between too, I would say my wife, Victoria, she'll try a new thing, but it it has to, it needs to percolate for like a year. Like she'll do one new thing a year. And over the seven, 16 years we've been together, she's tried a lot of things. She's done yoga and yoga.
01:41:28
Speaker
She became a yoga teacher. She does beekeeping. She has chickens. She does a vegetable garden. She does terrariums. and my wife are married to the same woman, dude. She does terrariums. ah She does ah running and now weight training. And you say, wow, that's a lot of things. But she can only handle the newness like one thing a year. Otherwise it gets a little overwhelming. Whereas I'm like, Oh my God, give me 10 new things a day.
Support and Collaboration
01:41:54
Speaker
Like I'm voraciously eating up the newness. So I think all of us, and then there's the bowl turners who it's one thing every 40 years. Sorry. Again, bowl turners. i love you. so you know, I think we all have our, our time scale for what we can tolerate, like taking a risk and learning something new and being out of our our comfort zone.
01:42:15
Speaker
Yeah. Well, on that note, um Jeff, do you know about our dear Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle? I was like, where is this going? Have I not proselytized the good word? No, who is that? Well, ah William T. Burkle, praise be.
01:42:38
Speaker
He is the proprietor of WTB woodworking in Huntington Valley, Pennsylvania. where they have all kinds of woodworking supplies, lumber, slab, sheet goods, tools. And, and just in case you wanted to know right now, they have 50% off all slabs and all boards in store.
01:42:58
Speaker
50% off all chill epoxy products. Cause Jeff, I know you've really had a hanker in to make a river table lately. No, I've, been i like i just saw i saw it in your eyeballs i saw it in your use of color in that painting behind you and i was like this motherfucker purple sparkles in a in a slab table all day long i could just see it eyes yeah and right now just in case you were wondering i don't know when this episode is going to come out it could be well past this this registration point but uh from now until december 20th There is a ah a tool giveaway where he's running a giveaway for a jet late. So if you're interested in that, I say you check that out. You could turn a bowl on. oh You could turn question eric a tiny bowl. Question, Eric. I thought you were talking to me personally all this time.
01:43:46
Speaker
I mean, I was, but also the greater audience. And then you said it it may not matter because this episode may come out later, and I realize you're talking to the audience, and I feel a little bit betrayed. I thought this was a personal thing. In this case, listen, we can take this off air. Like, if you want, I can introduce you to our Lord and Savior, William Teresa Burkle. He's a good friend of mine. In honor, Padre, Filipe, Spiritus, Santo.
01:44:09
Speaker
I will say, I will, I will give a shout out to bill. Uh, I bought a bandsaw off of him, this big old, uh, honking seven and a horse behemoth. I'm very excited to get set up. And, um, the re-sawing he, oh yeah. Oh, my bandsaw has been like underpowered for the last eight years. So I just got this new thing. It's a 16 inch, uh, re-saw capacity, 24 inch throat. It's fucking bonkers. How big of a blade will you put on that?
01:44:38
Speaker
I'll put like a one inch resaw. Yeah, I think it can take up to a one and a quarter. wish had bigger shop. your shop is gorgeous, by the way. huge. Thank you, brother. It's phenomenal. got a great set. Oh my gosh. Very lucky to have that. Yeah. But Bill, buying that off of him, I was like, I don't know how I'm going to handle the delivery. He was like, oh, I'll just bring it to you, man. Don't worry about it. So he set this up in his trailer, brings it to my shop with two of his guys, and the four of us get it up into my shop together. And then I was like, well, let me buy you guys lunch or something. He was like, nah, fuck you, man. I got work to do.
01:45:09
Speaker
So he just like delivered this thing out of the kindness of his heart. It's like 45 minutes, 50 minutes. So it's good if there was ever a reason to support... William T. Burkle is because he's a good dude, let alone the fact that they have good products at WTB Woodworking.
01:45:24
Speaker
And ad read. There we go. That's how you do it. All right. So it was an ad. ah All right. Well, we're going to continue ah this shenanigans with Jeff. Jeff in the after show. Thank you so much for contributing. to Yeah, man. This was a blast. You guys are fun. It makes me want to want a second host on my podcast, but I don't think I know anyone that cool. So.
01:45:49
Speaker
I guess I'll stick with just me. Jeff, it felt so natural. It felt so natural talking to you, man. An hour and 45 minutes. I think this might be officially like our longest episode ever. definitely, if not the longest. It just felt like five minutes with you two. don't know what it was. You guys, was amazing. To the listeners, you know, if you want to help us, which would be amazing.
01:46:12
Speaker
um please rate us in like Spotify or Apple podcasts or whatever you listen on. I've never asked that before ever. We're in our 48th show and it never occurred to me to ask for help. I guess we're just like always into the topic, but if you'd like to help us, there's, there's three ways. One is, ah Just give us a rating and give it make it honest. If it's a bad rating, then it's bad. you know i' take you know we're We're honest here, and you know and if it's good, then it's great.
01:46:39
Speaker
you know good That's amazing. All right, so that's one way. The second way is support us on Patreon. If you support us on Patreon, ah you also get the video feed, which is on YouTube, and the after show. And then if you go to the highest level... um we would, you know, take some of your questions in the after show. We'll answer some of your questions and we'll also give you like some criticism or critique some idea ideation on something, you know, a project of yours.
01:47:05
Speaker
That's the second way. And the third way is quite simple. Tell people about us. We don't advertise this show at all. So like if you would just tell a few of your friends that you find this kind of content compelling, it's not just like shop talk. Hey man, how many teeth does your blade have? Oh, I go for the 10 TPI. That was a very offensive Jason impression. That is not Jason.
01:47:30
Speaker
Don't do that to me, Eric. I gotta know who this Jason guy is. Eric, do not do that to me, okay? um Yeah, if you enjoy this show, just tell a few people or post a story about it. That would really help us, and we would appreciate it. If you are an hour and 48 minutes into this show, I'm presuming that you enjoy it, so please do tell at least somebody. And before it before we get out of here, Jeff, can you tell people where they can find you, buddy?
01:47:57
Speaker
um i can be found on instagram at jeff hein studio jeff underscore hein underscore studio the stuff i make i'm not great at posting a lot of stuff but is uh jeff well no i got it backwards that's the stuff i make jeff underscore hein underscore studio and then my art is jeff underscore hein underscore art and then jeff hein.com and then i have a podcast that is called the undraped artist which is on youtube and all the other podcast stations And, uh, what, what, just so people know, cause they're, they're going to want to go listen to the, the Paul episode. What was the name of that episode? When was that?
01:48:34
Speaker
Oh man, you put me on the spot. What was that? When was that? it was like a month ago. it was like a month think ago ago. Yeah. Yeah. yeah And it has his face on the thumbnail. painter I was the first non painter ever. He said.
01:48:45
Speaker
No, you were the first non-visual artist. We had a photographer. Okay. Okay. Non-visual artist. Yeah. So yeah we had a hell of a conversation, I recall. Dude, people loved it. And here's the other thing.
01:48:57
Speaker
I probably should ask you when we're not recording, but I'd love to put this on my podcast. maybe you get Because I think people, my audience would love your podcast. Absolutely. You want to cross-pollinate, guys. Absolutely. I'll give you the audio and video files. Yeah, let's do it. 100%. Okay. yeah Everybody, go give Jeff a follow. He's a good dude.
01:49:15
Speaker
Jeff, you're outstanding. You are beyond artistic. So are you guys, man. I idolize both of you for your skills. You guys are awesome. Don't do that. That's dangerous. consider myself lucky to know someone like you, Jeff. Really, really awesome. Thank right, we can do all the ass-kissing in the after show. All right, let's do it. really bye