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Bridging Gender Equity: Connecting Women’s and Trans Inclusion
22 Plays22 days ago
Efforts toward gender equity at work often run on parallel tracks... one focused on women, the other on trans and non-binary inclusion. But what happens when those tracks finally meet?
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai is joined by Erin Davis, award-winning inclusion strategist, to explore how bridging these movements can unlock real, lasting inclusion for everyone.
Together, we unpack why separating “women’s issues” from trans inclusion often leads to incomplete progress, and how shifting from 'who' we’re designing for to 'what' we’re designing can create shared benefit for all.
From inclusive washroom design to the evolving role of Employee Resource Groups, we look at practical examples of how organizations can move beyond silos and build systems that truly work for diverse identities.
We also talk about what gives us hope: the leadership of young people, the growing visibility of trans joy, and the power of shared values.
🎧 Listen to Bridging Gender Equity: Connecting Women’s and Trans Inclusion wherever you get your podcasts, and follow Gender in Focus for grounded conversations on inclusive leadership, intersectionality, and systemic change that benefits everyone.
You can find more about Erin and her work on her website: erindavisco.ca and check out her podcast, Unapologetic, here: https://www.erindavisco.ca/unapologetic-podcast
Key themes: gender equity, trans inclusion, non-binary inclusion, intersectionality, inclusive leadership, systemic change, inclusive design, employee resource groups, allyship, belonging, DEI, inclusive workplaces.
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Transcript
Introduction to Trans and Non-Binary Issues
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm El and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
If the frame is too narrow, then there's all these other ah people who are not just excluded, but you know unaccounted for. it all That's a ah deeper level of of exclusion.
00:00:33
Speaker
If we want to create
Bridging Gender Equity Efforts
00:00:34
Speaker
systems change, we've got to bring new people in who start to understand that, oh, actually, we could in partnership support women and the indigenous group or women and the 2SLGBT group because actually people exist in both of those spaces.
00:00:57
Speaker
Let's be honest. Too often, efforts towards gender equity run on parallel tracks. Women initiatives on one side and trans and non-binary inclusion on the other, and very few bridges between them.
00:01:09
Speaker
But
Inclusive Workplaces for All Genders
00:01:10
Speaker
what if those bridges are exactly where the biggest breakthroughs are waiting? In this episode, we'll unpack how to build workplaces and communities that don't just accommodate women, trans and non-binary people, but actually become smarter, fairer, and more human for everyone.
00:01:27
Speaker
We'll talk about how gendered systems and spaces still miss the mark for both women and trans folks. The mindset shift leaders need to stop thinking in silos and start designing for shared benefit.
00:01:40
Speaker
Real world examples of inclusive design in
Guest Introduction: Erin Davis
00:01:43
Speaker
action. To help me unpack all of this, I'm joined by a very special guest, Erin Davis, who is an award-winning inclusion strategist global speaker and advocate for equity that benefits everyone. Aaron, it's so good to have you here today. Welcome to Gender in Focus. How are you doing?
00:02:01
Speaker
Well, thank you so much for having me here for this conversation. And, you know, I am doing well. And i say that in part of reflecting on all the, not only challenges that we faced in our day-to-day, but also celebrating the joy that we also get to experience every single day. and programming my brain to really focus in on those really, you know, good news stories that really, i think, probably inspire you to continue doing the work that you do.
Siloing in Gender Initiatives
00:02:33
Speaker
Absolutely. It's so important because there is so much that, you know, needs still needs addressing. That's an understatement. And so that focus on the positive end of the equation is super important to keep our spirits up because there's quite a bit of work left to do.
00:02:52
Speaker
And speaking of which, i know we're talking about inclusion across the gender spectrum here today. And so I'm curious to hear from your experience working with other organizations where you've seen or noticed some patterns around the inclusion strategies that folks have. And typically, at least in my experience, I've seen a lot of siloing of initiatives. And I wonder if you see the same between women's equity efforts and trans and non-binary issues.
00:03:24
Speaker
Yeah, I absolutely see this pattern. And then maybe within this, I'll share a story too about how even for myself, it's become a refined conversation to really start to understand How do we make sure we are focused on inclusion and through that work, understanding whose voices are either at the table or not at the table?
Erin's Journey in Diversity and Inclusion
00:03:48
Speaker
And so when I started doing this work, it really was around who's missing in leadership. It was connected to my own work and not seeing anyone reflected that looked like me who had similar experiences to myself.
00:04:04
Speaker
But I also didn't know a lot around the words diversity, equity, and inclusion. That was just my story. And so through my research and through my understanding and having conversations with others, that's when I started to deepen my understanding and really hold on to two words now in my practice that's almost you know i'm 15 15 years ago when i started this journey and you and yeah exactly a little bit of mental mental math there and starting to unpack what does equity mean so we're looking at systems and really understanding where the challenges lie there but also getting to this place of inclusion and knowing that it can't just be my experience that leads this work. It's got to be a shared experience and start to understand and see those though those
Recognizing Intersecting Identities
00:04:59
Speaker
conversations. And it's interesting because I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine recently who is a disabled person. And she was saying, guess what?
00:05:11
Speaker
Disabled people are also in these different groups that we're talking about, right? And when we sort of segregate identity, um we can often think in a very binary way about that experience. And so even when we talk about women,
00:05:26
Speaker
And actually, you know what, Kai, this is this is such a good teachable moment. yeah I often and have been trained to say, well, those gains have been made for white women. Well, we can start to add on to that sentence, right, in that conversation.
00:05:40
Speaker
And so what gains have been made for our trans women and what gains have been made for disabled women? And we don't necessarily go into those different intersections to understand for Indigenous women, right? It's easy for our brains to understand <unk> put people into boxes. We sort of know that within the brain science. And so I have to work with organizations to really go, okay, that's a great entry point. yeah And...
00:06:09
Speaker
And how can we do this work in concert? And if we don't, then we're solving for symptoms, not for systems, right?
00:06:20
Speaker
And how do we get to a place that we actually are thinking about? What does inclusion mean? And not just looking at an individual group in isolation.
00:06:34
Speaker
Because that individual group, and I guess what I'm trying to say too, is is intersectional, even if we aren't thinking that. Absolutely. That's so true. And it it just becomes more, not even superficial, because of course, those changes are important, but it's they're incomplete, right? There's so much more to it. And that if the frame is too narrow, then there's all these other ah people who are not just excluded, but you know unaccounted for. it all That's a ah deeper level of of exclusion that we may not recognize. And so, you know, certainly women, there's very important initiatives that need and changes that need to be made. But if we're not thinking about these other intersectional aspects of being a woman, then those unfortunately are incomplete and um yeah, leave a lot of people behind.
Broadening Women's Initiatives
00:07:34
Speaker
um
00:07:34
Speaker
Probably the majority actually, when you account for all of those. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe another way for people to think about this and understand this is we share sort of this intersection as well. I worked in the engineering world for a number of years. And so we could say, what does an engineer look like?
00:07:56
Speaker
What does a firefighter look like? What does a doctor look like? What does an architect look like? What does a nurse look like? Right? We can ask these questions and You and I will not have an answer to that because we have done the work to say could look like anyone. um But society has trained us in a very specific way. What we see represented In film and media, because we have so much exposure to that, um what we witness in conversation and how people describe themselves within their own occupation may paint a picture, we may have a reliable source, right? Maybe someone in our family is an engineer and then we think of them. So I think the encouragement is to say, yes and yes, and I know this person in their story. And there's another story yet to uncover and to discover. And how do we make sure that we don't just sit in a singular way of looking at things because it doesn't serve us.
00:09:00
Speaker
Absolutely. Not to the individuals who are not included in that frame, but also to wider society, right? mean, what kinds of things are we missing out on when people aren't able to give their gifts to within the workplace, but of course, much more beyond that too, right? So that makes sense to to have much broader frame. But i appreciating that sometimes it's it's helpful to start somewhere, right?
00:09:25
Speaker
And then dig into that piece and then expand, like you said, the and part. So, okay, we've got a handle on this part, maybe not solved it entirely, but we want to keep building upon that and perhaps extending a bit further or ah making it a bit more specific for a particular group, right? Like we've dealt with women's issues more broadly, but now let's add in, you know, ah women with disability. We're going to add in trans women. We're going to add in indigenous because of course there are specific needs for each of those subgroups of the broader, you
Integrating Women's and Trans Initiatives
00:10:01
Speaker
know, women's initiatives. Right.
00:10:03
Speaker
So. Yeah. That's fantastic. ah Have you seen in in your work how organizations have ah started to kind of bring in at these various threads and and start to um coalesce them, to unify them rather than dividing? amongst folks in this way, particularly when it comes to women's issues and trans issues, or especially I'm thinking like, you know, shared goals of safety and belonging, even opportunity, like you were saying, representation within, especially the leadership, but of course, more broadly, especially certain industries have had more or less of of particular genders.
00:10:46
Speaker
Yeah, I have one particular story that always comes to mind. And i think when I think about the question, how are we getting people to shift from identity only framing to the specific conditions that we want to create? So like you said, like, how are we thinking about those shared values? Because my my guess, now we have to share space to validate, but my guess is that we probably do have shared values within safety, within belonging, within respect. And so those can be our anchors for the conversations that we then have and and share that space with. But if we only understand...
00:11:27
Speaker
from one perspective and then try to overlay that to everyone's expect you know experience and expectations we're going to miss the mark so this is why it's so important to to share space together um the story i want to share though and this is this is pretty early days this is probably back in 2016 2017 so i want to give that context because and i And I suppose permission to folks that are listening and doing this work, you and I don't have a magic easy button.
00:12:02
Speaker
What?
Role of Employee Resource Groups
00:12:04
Speaker
Do this one thing. Although someone said to me once, they're like, you should get that made. Like, you should just get a little easy button. But then when people push it, it just, like, phones your phone number and then you can help them solve these big complex problems that they have. i'm like, okay, mom maybe. Maybe. But there isn't. that We have to understand the context of the organization. We have to understand the context of where they are, even within their maturity of talking about inclusion in the workplace. And so once we have a little bit more of that framing, I think we can help to build the strategies. But the story I remember, 2016, 2017.
00:12:39
Speaker
is the organization I was working with had a women's employee resource group. And to be honest, there was, there no, there for sure was binary thinking in that because it was the first employee resource group. So we can celebrate the idea, okay, we're giving space to employees to come together to talk about this issue. It was an organization where women were quite underrepresented. So it was an identified gap that needed to be looked at and understood a little bit more.
00:13:09
Speaker
And the women's ERG... created safety in bringing folks together and then allowed this opportunity for the, at the time it was called the Pride ERG, but really the representation of 2SLGBT perspectives in the organization to do a joint conversation because the folks that wanted to start the Pride ERG didn't feel safe Some of them had the experience of like, oh, I'm going to have to come out at work again because if they're sort of reaching a broader audience and they wanted to do that with the safety of the group that the women's ERG had created. so I love that as an evolution of the conversation and saying, what can we do together in partnership? Yeah.
00:14:03
Speaker
When we look at the work of employee resource groups, it can become very complex very quickly. And this is what a lot of organizations have done, right? They've created these almost silos of these different groups and everyone has good intent.
00:14:17
Speaker
Yep. But the impact of what they're doing may not have the broadest ripples if they aren't actually thinking about how could we do things together in partnership? Because again, we have the shared values. Yep.
00:14:29
Speaker
And these are the conditions that we want to create. We want to create a more inclusive organization. What can we do together to do that?
Inclusive Washroom Design
00:14:37
Speaker
And I think that's where I see organizations who are really invested in creating an inclusive workspace are thinking about that and having the conversation of where are some natural intersections, because we do we do have to honor people's specific identities. Right. And create opportunities to bring new people into the conversation. Because that's where I also see sometimes a bit of a gap is we may be having the same conversation with the same people. If we want to create systems change, we've got to bring new people in who start to understand that, oh, actually, we could in partnership support women and the indigenous group or women and the 2SLGBT group. Because actually people exist in both of those spaces. Yeah. And then there's a set greater people belonging and more understanding for whom this might be a relatively new topic, but they have some understanding from one aspect of of those that group. Right.
00:15:40
Speaker
That's such a good point. Yeah. We to often talk about it as the kind of who to what trend shift. So definitely, of course, identity being an important factor. It's like who we are. And it's very deeply ingrained and embedded, right? So we do want to honor that. But there is this aspect of what are we striving for? What do we want to achieve? And so the the being able to translate or to kind of cover both in in essence is so critical so that both we can contribute to each other because there's you know really rich sharing across communities.
00:16:17
Speaker
groups and for the people for whom there is an intersectional experience, they can even integrate those things in like this very i mean within their being, number one, and then also to contribute to um you know various initiatives and and efforts. and to translate things too between groups, which sometimes requires a bit of extra effort for people to actually understand if it's not their own experience. So all of that is possible if you create these opportunities of nexus, you know, crossroads where people come together and can discuss or collaborate or, inter support in some way. Right. Um, certainly discussions are an important part of that. Uh, but then there's also a lot of richness in, um, you know, strategy of how to, you know, design a washroom ah between say that can span both trans and, people with disabilities needs. Um, and then more broadly beyond that as just an example, right. Uh,
00:17:22
Speaker
that's That's a really great example. And ERG is a huge way to to move those things forward within organizations, if set up properly in the way that you're describing, right?
00:17:33
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So there's always lessons and there's always ways to evolve and do things better. But If we have this employee voice that is enabled to have a direct line to senior leadership, right then doesn't it make sense for us to have as many voices and perspectives as part of that group to create the change? Right.
00:18:00
Speaker
Right. It just so, you know, what we're doing now is is pausing within the conversation to say, because I think we can get so excited about the change that we want to see. And and the reason I shared my story is the change I originally wanted to see was more women in leadership that looked like me.
00:18:19
Speaker
Now, I do still want to see that, but there is a lot more people that I want to see represented in leadership now because I continue to iterate, pause, think about whose voice is missing at the table and making sure that their lived experience is also represented. So that's what I now believe my work to be.
00:18:38
Speaker
And for organizations to start to think about that. 10 people is great, but 100, 1,000, all of a sudden, you know, it's kind of that cliche cliche saying, but i and I have not actually dove into where this came from, but rising tides raise all all boats. So in this sort of analogy, it's like, I believe by us working together, we actually get to this greater place.
00:19:08
Speaker
Oh, yeah. it's And it's so important that that happen. But it does require a broader strategy that can create that tide to rise, right? Yes. Rather than just looking at one or two boats and lifting those out of, you know, it's there's a, it's longer term work, but in the end, at at least I think, and we'll see if this is case.
00:19:33
Speaker
is is faster by you know and encouraging those those boats to rise. I wanted to make it a bit more tangible as um you've already provided some great you know insights and stories to to make that concrete, ah especially with the ERGs, which so many are a part of. But I was wondering too, in terms of some of the systemic pieces, I know we were talking and you've had some experience or, you know, we're part of some conversations at the United Nations earlier this year, and we're talking about washrooms. And this tends to be a bit of a flashpoint when it comes to discussions. And I'm sure we've all consumed our share of media on this or, you know, seen firsthand. And so I'm just curious what you heard or learned about at the United Nations when it comes to washroom design and how to make that more inclusive, especially when we're thinking about, you know, women and and trans and non-binary folks.
00:20:36
Speaker
Yeah. So I appreciate that we are having this story because it is a universal experience for people to use the washroom. I'm saying that a little bit slower because I'm like, does that include everyone? I think it does. But how people need to go to the bathroom might be very different like based on their ability or whatnot. Yeah.
00:20:59
Speaker
Exactly, exactly. But I, but I say, what a great entry point, because we have shared experience in that. And for context for listeners, I have had the ability to go and so this is the Commission on the Status of Women at the United Nations. And so in in our very conversation,
00:21:20
Speaker
who are the women that we're talking about when we go to the United Nations, right? And so I shared this story with you because it really was the first time that I'd seen side event focused on the the trans experience. And so i wanted to go sit in the the room and in hear the conversation and and give props to those organizers to say like, yes, these are the intersectional conversations that we need to start to have um so so folks understand.
00:21:48
Speaker
And so think, you know, some of the the highlights from a design perspective, and then I want to ah share a bit of a tangible opportunity for people to think about within their own day to day that they can think about. So the story was around, you know single stall, all gender washrooms were highlighted in their design because that supports women caregivers with strollers or children.
00:22:12
Speaker
You know, um how do we create that space where we, it may not just be a single user so that that single stall, that door provides privacy for that caregiver who may have more things with them that they need to put somewhere. um Certainly supports trans and non-binary people without harm or policing um who's in that washroom, right? That privacy piece, right? It could support people with personal care attendants. And so that may not be my experience going to the washroom, but I do have friends who do have care attendants. And so they do, again, need that that space. um And it can reduce weight ah line wait times because there's this efficiency benefit that comes from it. And that was a bit of the the story. um that was shared and this so the united nations session that i go to is in in the united states in new york city so i give that context because the example that was given was for folks to to leave more yelp reviews and so for the listeners in canada i know maybe we don't utilize yelp as um as much but you'll appreciate the story and so you go to a restaurant just imagine you're going to a restaurant
00:23:31
Speaker
And you need to use the washroom. And there's two washrooms at the back of this very small and quaint restaurant.
Improving Inclusive Practices
00:23:38
Speaker
And I think many people may have this this experience. And you go to the back and you look at the doors and you go,
00:23:44
Speaker
oh These are gendered washrooms. And for me, this is quite often the case. right The women's washroom is locked. There's someone in there. It's it's been being used.
00:23:56
Speaker
um But the the washroom that's been assigned to men is open. And it's a single stall washroom with a door and just a toilet.
00:24:07
Speaker
And I go, Yeah.
00:24:11
Speaker
Do I wait? Do I go in there? Do I answer the questions? All of these things go through my mind where a simple solution, like in this particular circumstance, both are just washrooms because that is the experience of what they are providing. And the Yelp review comes in with a positive tone to it to say,
00:24:35
Speaker
I loved my experience at the at this restaurant. Really great food, whatever it is. Hopefully that's the case. But then I went to use the washroom and I had quite a wait time because the stalls were gendered.
00:24:49
Speaker
And this is a real opportunity two change your signage to make that customer experience even better. Right. was like, oh, wow. Well put, well put.
00:25:00
Speaker
Now, we could also, you know, share a little bit of the story like, oh, yeah, that that was an annoyance for me, which is like, unfortunately, a bit of the case for for folks. And ah the person on the panel sharing this story, you know, this is this is this is the this is the hard part. This is the hard part to hear these stories. They took the train in from a surrounding area to get to New York City. They are a trans individual and they had to plan their day out thinking that they may not be able to use the washer.
00:25:32
Speaker
And so that may be another aha moment for folks to really start to think about that when we don't think about inclusive design, we are putting people in a really vulnerable space because that harm, that policing potentially comes into the equation and to think, would you want to be in that circumstance? I don't think anybody wants to be in that circumstance. And so we need to improve the experiences for all people. So the caregivers, the the folks that have maybe personal care attendance, those that just need their personal space when going to the washroom.
00:26:11
Speaker
That sounds like a really great idea to me. Right?
00:26:19
Speaker
That's such a good point that you know the the way that you design a washroom, even down to the signage, right? Especially if you already have the space, right? That's most of the struggle and you know the cost. and so And then it comes down to the signage and we revert to things, you know we kind of do things that we've always done them. And so it can revert to we we were gender specific a lot of the time in these types of spaces.
Challenging Stereotypes in Public Spaces
00:26:45
Speaker
without thinking about what are the downstream effects of this type of labeling. And then when people share, like on a Yelp review or even feedback via email, you know, can often just ring a little bell for people to be like, oh yeah, why do we do it that way? seems kind of archaic now and we're creating all these kind of, um
00:27:09
Speaker
delays or challenges for folks, you know, and that a pretty large number that kind of suffer in silence, whether it's, you know, a person with disability or a trans person or like yourself, you know, just having to, you know, wait in line or the example that that person was providing.
00:27:29
Speaker
So it kind of blows my mind sometimes. And a signage fix is pretty cheap, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Totally, totally. and And you know this from the layered work and like all spaces are not created equal. And sometimes there is some infrastructure changes that have to be considered. But in restaurants, it really i do observe sort of just a lot of doors with with with with handles and and you can lock them and.
00:27:55
Speaker
And this is this is just the nature of the work that I'm in but I definitely know the washrooms where I'm located in Treaty 6 in Edmonton that are inclusive. And I tell people about it because that is part of my work.
00:28:08
Speaker
And, you know, the other part of this conversation that I just thought about is I actually celebrate and take pictures of washrooms that have menstrual menstrual products in them. Because again, that universal design is that is a shared experience for a lot of individuals. And why not have that ah universally available for the folks that need to use them?
00:28:32
Speaker
Right. So that's, again, what are the users of this experience going to need? And, you know, 50% of the population, give or take, um at some point in their life is probably going going to need that. And so this is incumbent upon folks that are are creating and designing spaces to really think about that universal experience that you want people to have. And correct me if I'm wrong, but this has come up a few times.
00:29:02
Speaker
like I'm sharing about all the washrooms that I really enjoy in the city. i think other people that are part of these different groups that we've talked about, yeah they're telling their friends about the positive experiences. So you're like getting return clientele to your space when you are more inclusive.
00:29:21
Speaker
yeah Yeah, there's definite benefits to everyone, right? Including an economic one, right? From a business perspective. Oh yeah, there's a lot of knowledge sharing among whether it's kind of ad hoc of like, don't go there or go here type of exchange, or sometimes there can be apps. I know certainly with people with disability, you know, they have various apps. So do trans and non-binary folks, especially, you know, non-binary folks have a really hard time finding anything other than a men's or women's facility, which both going into them could present their own unique challenges. because we often assume what somebody's space, whether somebody should is quote in the wrong place based on how they look, right? Feminine or masculine. So that presents a challenge. And so just needing to know where the all gender spaces are, whether they be single unit or multi stall. And so that is, you know, it's a little bit more regional. It's not every area has that mapped in any way, but where there's an exchange of user information.
Strategies for Organizational Inclusivity
00:30:26
Speaker
But this could all be solved if organizations had a ah more of a view to solving this in a universal way so that people don't have to create these things that are essentially workarounds rather than solutions, right? so Yeah, totally. Yeah.
00:30:45
Speaker
So that's that's a fantastic story. And certainly so many people benefit from single unit washrooms. And if they're properly labeled to be for anyone, then that so much the better. And we have started to highlight, you know, oftentimes, you know, given we're trans-focused, we are literally focused on trans folks. But we have started to broaden those statements of benefit because of course it's not just trans and non-binary folks and there's actually more much more of a majority, especially if we think about some of the ones that you've listed, but even people with IBS or Crohn's who just need a little time and space and privacy to themselves because it's a lot to have to handle that with other people around and listening. Yeah, you you know, i was just thinking about that, actually. And, you know, I will make um maybe a statement that includes even more people, but I know a lot of people do have that, that ailment.
00:31:46
Speaker
I don't know, sometimes we just need some privacy and quiet time, right? Like all the introverts in the world, that's not me. Yeah. But even i get overstimulated in certain spaces. And when I go into the washroom, it's just a little bit about, it's just going to take a little deep breath right now and and reset. Yeah.
00:32:08
Speaker
Great. I know where all those washrooms are too. Yeah. It's so true. We did ah a survey of 3,000 facility users at a university, and I was shocked how much happens in washrooms beyond leaving oneself or taking care of some medical need or another.
00:32:28
Speaker
um You know, the emotional piece was a huge theme. um Across the gender spectrum, ah people are struggling at work, and there's no place to really privately handle those difficult emotions and washrooms are one of them. And, you know, maybe not the most ideal because there's so much else happening there, but it is really valuable space. And that's tremendously important for probably, i would say most people at that point, right?
00:32:58
Speaker
Not just a half. Totally. You know, so. Mm-hmm. One other thing I wanted to get into, because it it does come up, is you know single unit washrooms. The the main reason why, or that I hear from folks when we have these types of conversations is the alleged difference, and it might not be that alleged, ah of cleanliness between vendors. And so some ah people feeling very strongly about wanting a cleaner space um Yeah. Have you heard anything about that? Or what are your thoughts on on the cleanliness factor, you know, as a way to say we should keep them separated?
00:33:41
Speaker
Oh, I have a lot of thoughts on this. And i I definitely do have people share. And I would say it's a legit experience that they've had where the male washroom gross.
00:33:58
Speaker
gross Now, there's a lot to unpack in there. And again, this is a particular like washroom that someone's referencing.
00:34:10
Speaker
But I would question the workplace culture. Why are we allowing that space to be uncleanly? And this is usually on work sites that I hear more of those examples given. Well, there's pretty strong standards in other parts of your work that it needs to be clean and tidy so you can effectively do your job. So I would. Yeah, absolutely. So and and those are. Yeah, you're right. Like there are specific safety standards associated with that. So why should the washer be treated any differently? So that would be my angle and and like response to that.
00:34:48
Speaker
My thoughts on this, because it came up in conversation the other day and I just I had to laugh and kind of you know shrug my shoulders a little bit because... um I have a home office now, so I don't work in an office environment. But people were talking about how uncleanly the kitchen was.
00:35:05
Speaker
And, you know, dishes in the sink and people, you know, thinking someone else is going to put their their plate away. Do we need two separate kitchens, Kai? Yeah.
00:35:18
Speaker
yeah
00:35:21
Speaker
oh, now we we're adding another layer to the... No, yeah, I get your point. Like, yeah, we we just need to level up in general in the office and that everyone is going to contribute to that to make that possible. Because you're right. duplicating everything is quite ridiculous and costly. yeah Right? So let's like flip the script on this because I hope everyone would be like, no, we do not need two kitchens. Maybe jokingly, someone might say that we do. But like that's a redundancy that I don't think is necessary. so when we're talking about this from a washroom experience, come on, like let's let's make sure that we are taking care of the space that we use. And, you know, I think that that is incumbent upon all of us as users of those spaces to make sure that we are taking care of them.
00:36:14
Speaker
Yeah, doing our part. Another thing I added to the mix is just making sure, you know, while that might be the case and is sometimes, there are cleanliness challenges on all sides, I would say. Another factor is that we kind of over focus on men being uncleanly. And that is widely shared across the gender spectrum. Like there can be various people of different genders who are uncleanly. And there are also examples of people who are cleanly. And then rather than getting into that hamster wheel, it's just being like, no, our standard is this and we're all going to contribute and, you know, we can do it. And here we Yes, we can. That's right.
00:37:03
Speaker
So I think that's really important, but it is important to to kind of pause for a beat in anything that kind of blocks some forward movement, right? So there are things that come in the way of
Interconnected Inclusion Strategies
00:37:16
Speaker
of a change. And so to pause and take a look at it and then carry on with the change of updating the signage so it doesn't have, you know, two gender. Another thing is not just to have the singular gender, but also not to have two icons. Sometimes think, that that represents everyone, but it doesn't. So we generally tend to recommend just a toilet icon and everyone welcome and then call it day. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. in And I get your point too because I think sometimes people try to be really cute. Like I think that's their intent, but then it just causes confusion really at the end of the day. And you can be cute in other parts of your establishment.
00:37:58
Speaker
True. Yeah. there other opportunity Absolutely. yeah I wondered if there were any other kind of shifting beyond washrooms, if there's any other examples that you've heard of or that you've been you know a part of in and terms of, ah yeah, thinking about integrating women's and trans inclusion results into kind of a smarter, more human-centered design.
00:38:22
Speaker
Yeah, a couple other stories come up and I'll share another employee resource group related conversation The organization I worked at previously, we we sort of asked the question, are our benefits inclusive? Which for an organization with, you know, tens of thousands of employees, that's like, that's a pretty big question to say yes or no to. Sure.
00:38:48
Speaker
um And in conversation with the benefits department, you know, the answer was yes. and And they work with the specific provider of those benefits to have the conversations to understand, i would assume, the intersections. And, you know, was ah it was a fairly positive response that the team and I got around saying, yes, we we are, you know, with a very well-known benefit provider. They are looking at um benefits through a lens of inclusion.
00:39:19
Speaker
But I wasn't quite satisfied with the answer because i don't have the lived experience of every identity. And so what we what we did is we actually utilized one of the employee resource groups, specifically the Pride employee resource group to say, hey, would you take on this project that actually has specific business outcomes, um not just you know fun flags and food, which we can sometimes get stuck in when we do employee resource group things. But can you actually, you know, validate this statement that our benefits are really inclusive? And so I sort of think about, well if we'd asked the women's ERG, how would they answer? If we asked, you know, the Indigenous ERG, how would they answer? And so we tried to do this sort of joint project to look at it. And, you know, i'm I'm sure people are going to guess where the story is going. There are some additional opportunities for inclusion within the benefits package, right? Yeah. How exciting. And and some of them were were were were kind of simple in terms of like, what are the images that you are using to convey what a family looks like?
00:40:23
Speaker
You know, and and were there some stereotypes presented in there? But there were some opportunities for the specific benefits being provided um to employees that were added through this
Inclusive Benefit Programs
00:40:36
Speaker
project. And so i think...
00:40:39
Speaker
it's it's incumbent upon us to, again, what are those additional layers when we ask the question, what does inclusion look like? right i could ah We could have easily said yes, because you know the experience for women, maybe thinking that in a very narrow definition, is really inclusive. and And most of the folks on the benefit team actually were women. But we decided to take it to a more nuanced level and really start to ask some some more pointed questions. And I think this this comes up too from an accessibility perspective where we talk to folks who are who are disabled and if you pick up the phone and say like, is this this place accessible?
00:41:21
Speaker
The answer is yeah, yes it is. And then you get there and you're like, oh actually no, no it's not. And so um i think, you know, um people are part of the the trans community may also be disabled. And so where do we ask these sort of multiple questions to really get to? Are we are we moving towards inclusion? So I think that that example is relatable in in terms of Ensuring that we're asking not just one question, but we're asking multiple questions and we're sort of thinking about it from from different lenses. yeah And then from a personal perspective, and then, you know, we'll get into if there's there's any other intersections here.
00:42:06
Speaker
um context for the listeners, this is a very Canadian example. And oh no, I have another example i'm going to share. yeah So um recently, we have gone through a new fiscal budget for our federal government. yeah And there were conversations coming up around wage funding being reduced. So that's women and gender, gender economy um department. And I think that sometimes our default in sort of the definition of wage, just thinks about women in a very
00:42:45
Speaker
singular way. right And there's an organization called Momentum Canada that really positioned some really amazing work. And i have the email up in front of me because I wanted to sort of like give pause to how great this was. I was one of the 175 organizations that signed that particular petition to say, we need to actually think about this. And I thought it was actually so great that it was coming from 2SLGBT group that said, we are looking to make funding for these groups and women's equality because we are part of this work in a big way. And so the great news about this, and for context, it was
00:43:28
Speaker
worrying about like 80% cut to this funding. So it would be like sort of devastating to a community that like doesn't get enough funding to begin with.
00:43:39
Speaker
But this advocacy came out the other side really positively. We saw huge investments, relatively speaking, to this work. And so I think that that's for me personally, just thinking about How am I making sure that the systems that are looking to create change are supported and funded in the right way? And I see those intersections of the work being done specifically for the 2SLGBT community, but also saying like this is part of the women's work that we are doing. and And jointly, together, we are together, we can actually make a huge difference. So that was like kind of a real time example that just happened recently that I thought was so, so great.
00:44:20
Speaker
Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's so exciting. And so relieving, too, as it can go in many different directions, especially with examples from elsewhere. And so, you know, you just have that moment of hoping, and also needing to push and come together in those moments, like you, you said, you know, and and you know sign petitions or you know have conversations so people are aware these are interconnected issues, need to be funded and in order to be able to advance anything, especially in areas where maybe there's not as much research or not as much knowledge. And so, yeah, that's so exciting. I was watching that very closely and and very excited when the news came that there is funding to to be continued. So ah that's exciting. The ERG example is a really good one. um to Kind of echo what you we were just talking about with in terms of momentum, highlighting those interdependencies or interconnectedness.
00:45:24
Speaker
With benefits, I find it really interesting. Certainly, you know, there's gender affirming benefits that are typically now being considered or are being actively added into the extended health care benefits of many organizations. insurance companies or you know, it's on their radar or they've actively assembled something.
00:45:46
Speaker
But I find it interesting. And this is where perhaps a more interconnected model might work better, where, yes, it's great and it's really important. So I don't want to ever say this is not me disparaging gender affirming benefits. But to me, gender affirming benefits is for everyone or ideally, because right now, um perhaps for some listeners it might not be aware, There are diagnoses require, but there's like particular requirements to access gender affirming benefits that then just limits them to trans and non-binary folks. But of course, we know that, ah you know, cisgender folks also have a gender affirming care benefit needs, right? Mm-hmm.
00:46:29
Speaker
You know, hormone um therapies at different life lifespans, um even laser hair removal for some cisgender women an important need. And so while I want those things to happen, i am starting to ask the question, is it possible to broaden them and remove that?
00:46:50
Speaker
gender dysphoria
Continuous Improvement in Inclusion Efforts
00:46:51
Speaker
diagnosis so that that in of itself has hoop jumping things that are not so great trans and non-binary. You know what I mean? So just like, can we shift it to everyone gets this benefit based on need?
00:47:04
Speaker
Yes. Oh, that is absolutely where we need to move to. And, you know, I have this conversation with, with some of my friends who don't have children and they will say,
00:47:19
Speaker
the benefits are not inclusive to me. And i go you know, tell me more, obviously you want to like understand where they're coming from. yeah But if we're being really honest, I think our benefit system and and anyone can challenge me on this or help educate me more for my observation and the work that I've done in the space, it really is kind of, they were created for um that nuclear family. Yeah.
00:47:43
Speaker
That idea of a mom and a dad and two kids and a white picket fence and all of that conversation. And there's so much more beyond that very singular definition. And, you know, people aren't getting... um married um the as as much as they they used to they're choosing not to have children and so should they be excluded from this and i guess i'm sharing the story because i know this also to be true those that were making the decisions on how these systems should look just didn't have
00:48:25
Speaker
different people sitting at the table to make those decisions. Yeah. Yeah. So they, so they, they didn't know, so they couldn't, you know, think of a better system. Sure. But we do know now yeah we're having the conversation. So how can we make a better system?
00:48:41
Speaker
Yeah. Let's ask again, you know, and, absolutely ki and, you know, what else can we offer and what is missing and, or who is missing, right? Like you were asked at the beginning or you frequently asked as part of your work, That's critical. And that it's, you know, I think people in many organizations, they just want to get done. And perhaps we don't get done. and it's actually just about continuously asking and and not assuming. um And, you know, maybe things steady or for a while and then more things come to play. mean, especially as we start to, you know, kind of add in AI into the mix, like who knows what kind of needs will emerge into the future. you just kind of close the conversation.
AI's Role in Inclusion Efforts
00:49:30
Speaker
Yes. And actually, you know, that the fact that you bring up AI, i want to encourage folks to be curious within working within that system because,
00:49:41
Speaker
AI is created by humans. Humans are biased. If you have a brain, you have a bias. It's not a bad thing. But if we aren't putting in inclusive information, if we're only putting in one image, one picture, one way of being, one way of thinking, then the outputs on the other side aren't going to be inclusive. And so...
00:50:02
Speaker
We can start to think about in our work and in our practices, you know, a little bit of a pause. And it it doesn't mean that we don't use ai It just means that we're being curious to ask a few more questions and then go, hey, what about this? Could you think about it from this perspective? And then, i don't know, from from my experience with using AI, you know, it's pretty adaptable. It's like, oh, I hadn't thought about that. Thanks for letting me know. we will now bring this into the work that you are doing. Okay, great.
00:50:30
Speaker
Right. And and so there's there's so many ways for us to be curious that I think maybe that's another element for our listeners to think about. The other example i was going to share and I'll try to see if this will come into focus. yeah It is, you know, a little name tag that I had. made And if I'm if I'm being honest, you know, it's it's it's a magnet. So when I go to events, I don't have to put a sticker on my shirt that gets stuck in my hair because I have long hair and then falls off because, you know, the adhesive isn't that great. So this is just sort of one solution that that works well for me.
00:51:07
Speaker
um i ah I put my pronouns on there. And I know that that becomes like a really, um i was going to say simple entry point, but maybe not everyone feels that way. But it is an entry point into the conversation of what does inclusion mean. And when people maybe push back against that, or say, well why do I need to express my pronouns? Mm-hmm.
00:51:30
Speaker
It's not about you. It's about creating that inclusive environment. So I put it on there as a signal of safety for someone to be able to come and talk to me because I'm willing to willing and and very open to to share that. And I am very focused on trying to create those spaces because I do have...
00:51:54
Speaker
Trans friends, and I do have folks that i work with. I'm a board member with the with the Pride Center of Edmonton, and it's this real opportunity to understand what some of those challenges are for folks, and pronouns can be a really big deal for someone within their identity.
00:52:11
Speaker
Absolutely. And if we're taking that away from them, like, that for for what reason? it It
Promoting Inclusivity in Everyday Life
00:52:18
Speaker
just doesn't make sense. So I think that that's another way. And maybe the point I'm getting to is just like what it means to be an ally in this work to get to that place of inclusion.
00:52:28
Speaker
And what are the small acts that we can do as individuals to help pave that way? Yeah. yeah Yeah. and And they're relatively kind of low cost. I mean, maybe the cost of a ah ah name tag for for you that you've produced, but, you know, putting your your own name and pronouns on a, you know writing it down it doesn't cost anything and and does create that space for learning opportunities for those who don't understand this practice or for those who are trans or non-binary. They can see, oh, this person understands that the the kind of the rationale behind sharing pronouns for anyone right who wants to. Of course, always voluntary. But yeah, that's great. These are great, fantastic, everyday and of tips. And then there's the the larger systemic piece that we were able to get through. Yeah. Shifting to the end here of of the session, I have just one final question before we close out is just kind of hope
Hope for the Future and Influencers
00:53:25
Speaker
for the future. We began on a ah positive note of you know joy, ah bring us joy. And so I'm wondering kind of what gives you hope ah for the future of gender inclusion and are some things that give you momentum and and give you lift?
00:53:41
Speaker
Yeah, I'll share two stories. One goes back to my time at the Commission on the Status of Women at the UN n and being part of the youth delegation. Now, what I mean by that, I should clarify. I wasn't part of it. I'm no longer ah qualified as a youth under the age of 35, but I got to hear them speak. Yes, I am. try to be every single day.
00:54:03
Speaker
I got to hear these youth represent their countries and speak about some of the challenges that they see. And there was for sure trans folks who were there speaking on behalf of their countries. And I thought,
00:54:21
Speaker
how cool that I just get to come into this space and be surrounded by different ideas and different perspectives and see this representation where we don't question what someone's pronouns are. We don't question their identity. we are there to speak about the issue. And that is the focal point. So i just I just felt good being in that space. So I think I often hear people talk about you know, the youth, they really are embracing different expectations that they have for the world that they want to grow up in or they want to be in So that gives me a lot of hope and maybe an extension of that,
00:55:01
Speaker
I think I share this ad nauseum, but i I do use TikTok and I know there's challenges within um doing so. And I always have to sort of question what platforms that I'm on but I'm very clear on why I use TikTok and I do use it to find good news stories. And I do find it as a place to hear voices that are not the same as my meaning.
00:55:29
Speaker
that I get to be exposed to other trans influencers. I get to be exposed to other people who are doing this very same work that I am hearing their perspectives, hearing their ideas, and hopefully amplifying those, um, within my own communities that I'm a part of. And I think there is again, challenges with social media, but I choose to use it to see that hope and be able to say this amazing little story here actually can become this huge, amazing story that we can share globally because we are so interconnected.
00:56:08
Speaker
Oh, that's so beautiful. And if you're actively searching for those, it's a different way from passively consuming, right? You're kind of steering the ship through, I'm sure a lot of other stuff to to get to kind of pinpointed, positive, empowering um ways that people are sharing their messages, their experiences, and sharing that with others so that they can <unk> benefit from that insight as well. So that's, ah that's so encouraging. And you're right. Youth are, are definitely, i mean, they're literally our future, but also they have so much more that they're helping us reach for. You know, we've,
00:56:48
Speaker
brought it this far and will hopefully provide you know advance it a little bit more. But then they're really going to go further. And that's exciting to see where they're headed with that. so Yeah, absolutely. and They are more fluid and don't put up as many walls. And so I will share one one influencer that I follow that I really appreciated. And i wish my brain was functioning a little bit faster to be able to share more. and Maybe we can share some in the show notes for this episode. But I had the opportunity to hear Alok first. speak recently in person and definitely fangirled pretty hard and bought tickets in the front row. but I share the work that Alok brings to this world because they have done a beautiful job, from my experience, taking a very tough topic. They are from the U.S. where this issue is very polarized around trans rights and trans identity and
00:57:58
Speaker
what Alok brought forward is trans joy. And I know that you do a lot of work in that space as well to really elevate good stories, but something that's so dark sometimes for people's identity, Alok brings humor to it.
00:58:11
Speaker
And I do think that that is sometimes a gift to help us, you know, bring a bit of a life to something that can feel so heavy. So I really appreciated what they, what they shared and in the way that they, they did that.
00:58:27
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. They've been able to digest a lot of pain, their own and that of the larger community, and been able to, you know, not shy away from it, but also not have it squash any amount of joy and, um you know, possibility that they have, and that they can even bring in love into the mix,
Conclusion and Further Engagement
00:58:50
Speaker
too. I'm just like...
00:58:51
Speaker
mind because they exist in a very visible way that myself and others who are trans don't and so they bear the brunt of so much more awfulness in the world and so the that they've been able to translate that in a very different direction tells me like not just like inner strength but just, ah you know, the the the skill set that they have. It's tremendous.
00:59:19
Speaker
So, ah yeah, so definitely we'll have more than happy to to link to Alok for folks to have their own experience with that. And thank you for sharing that too, because it's important for us to uplift various artists and thinkers who are trans.
00:59:35
Speaker
Yeah. With that said, we'll close out here just to do a little plug of your own, both website, erindavisco.com. Did I get that right?
00:59:47
Speaker
Oh, it's erindavisco.ca. Yeah..ca. Okay. And also to plug your great podcast too, Unapologetic. And if you wanted to share a few words on what that is all about, yeah, feel free to to share with our audience.
01:00:04
Speaker
Yeah, so Unapologetic is really a space for brave and bold conversations about leadership and allowing guests to come on and really have the conversations that we may not necessarily feel that we can have every single day and just really getting into the nuance of challenges with leadership and also how can we celebrate a different way of leadership than maybe we've seen within our own careers.
01:00:31
Speaker
Sweet. Oh my gosh. Well, that sounds fantastic. And encourage folks to go check that out. We'll link it in the show notes along with ah your website as well, in case people want to connect with you. And I just wanted to say a huge thank you for for sharing time and space and your wonderful stories and insights on this very important topic of how do we kind of get beyond the boxes that we create and have more human-centered design and and everyday interactions. So thanks again for for joining us.
01:01:01
Speaker
Thanks so much for having me. Okay. Bye for now.