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Can Single-Gender Spaces Be Trans Inclusive?
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Inclusion sounds simple - until you’re running a women’s program and someone asks, “are trans people welcome too?”
Many organizations want to do the right thing but get stuck when it comes to trans and non-binary inclusion in single-gender spaces. It’s easy to say “everyone’s welcome,” but true inclusion takes a little bit of planning.
In this episode of Gender in Focus, Kai and El talk about what happens when good intentions meet complex realities. They explore how to define who a space is for, what can go wrong when inclusion is rushed, and why a slower, phased approach can create space amidst uncertainty.
Kai shares examples from his own experience in men’s programs and attending a women-only college, while El reflects on what it feels like to navigate women’s groups as a non-binary person. Together, they unpack how thoughtful preparation, from forms and language to group culture, can make a huge difference in creating spaces where everyone belongs.
🎧 Tune in to “Including Trans and Non-Binary People in Single-Gender Spaces” and follow Gender in Focus for more honest conversations about inclusion, allyship, and building spaces where everyone can belong.
Key themes: trans and non-binary inclusion, single-gender programs, inclusive leadership, allyship, gender diversity, belonging, inclusion in organizations
#TransInclusion #GenderDiversity #InclusiveLeadership #LGBTQInclusion #Allyship #Belonging #DiversityAndInclusion #InclusiveWorkplaces
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Transcript
Introduction to Gender in Focus Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm Elle and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
Limitations of Gender-Specific Language
00:00:18
Speaker
Often single gender programs or services, they often use very gender specific language. And if you say you're including non-binary folks, then, you know, saying women and girls doesn't quite hit the mark, right? You have to be a little bit more expansive from that.
00:00:35
Speaker
Maybe an aspect that people don't really think about is that there's, again, it's a bit more than just saying trans women are allowed in this space or non-binary people are allowed in
Deep Dive into Inclusion
00:00:44
Speaker
this space. It is necessary for a conversation to happen amongst ah the people coming in, but also just like everybody in the space that they are going to be welcoming.
00:00:56
Speaker
What does it really mean to be inclusive of trans and non-binary people in a single gender organization or program?
Clarity in Program Inclusion
00:01:03
Speaker
In this episode, we explore how inclusion goes beyond simply opening the door. It's about preparing your structures, people, and culture to be truly welcoming.
00:01:13
Speaker
We unpack why clarity matters around who your program is for, what can go wrong when organizations skip thoughtful planning, and how a phased approach might support meaningful and affirming participation.
Exploring Single-Gender Spaces
00:01:26
Speaker
Whether you're running a women's program, a men's group, or any gender-specific space, join us as we discuss how to move from passive acceptance to active, respectful inclusion.
00:01:38
Speaker
And I'm excited once again to be joined by Elle in this interesting discussion today on gender specific programs and spaces. How are you doing? I'm doing so well. How are you doing today?
00:01:51
Speaker
Excellent. Yes, I'm doing well also. Now, this is a topic, as I've told you, that I know absolutely nothing about. So I'm kind of excited to go into this one and hopefully ask the questions that everyone else is thinking.
Importance of Clear Inclusion Policies
00:02:05
Speaker
Fingers crossed. And so my first question really is for ah organizations or programs that are creating single gender spaces, um often they really want to be inclusive and sometimes they'll they'll kind of make that clear by stating explicitly, we include trans and non-binary people as well ah in that. So why why would organizations kind of make that clear and make that point?
00:02:29
Speaker
Yeah. So if you're a single gender organization, and there's so many different examples of that, you know, there's women in leadership programs, there's men's support groups, there's, you know, all girls schools, you know, you go the list and there are spaces carved out for specific genders. And i don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that, or there's good reasons for carving out those spaces. Sometimes it's important for folks to talk amongst themselves, be amongst themselves, and whatnot. So ah that said, if it's not very clear how and if trans and non-binary folks are included, then it often, there's a lot of hesitation for trans folks to approach that type of organization or program, even if it is designed for them. And that's where some organizations thankfully have decided to explicitly state
00:03:29
Speaker
hey, you know we say this is a women's program and what we mean by women is X, Y, z right? And there's many different ways that people can describe that. But I think it is important to spell that out. If it's a women's program to say this includes cis and trans women as an example, there's also the extra step of thinking through whether non-binary folks are included.
Intentional Inclusivity and Avoiding Tokenism
00:03:54
Speaker
So, you know, some programs that make sense to them, others, um they they want to keep it, you know, um specific to a particular gender. So the reason why it's important to consider non-binary is folks is because typically there aren't
00:04:11
Speaker
that I know of any non-binary specific programs and and spaces. So that's where if there's space and preparations made, then that folding in of non-binary folks can be really important.
00:04:27
Speaker
Why is it so important to be clear about who it is that you're including? because And I know you've just touched on that, but like sometimes...
00:04:38
Speaker
it can be done and it it maybe doesn't come across as respectful as people intend. So could you go into that a little bit? Yes, so it it can, rather than defining who is included, it's kind of tacking on people.
Thoughtful Preparation for Inclusivity
00:04:55
Speaker
And it's like, oh yeah, and also, you know, you bunch of people who we don't quite understand and we we think is maybe a little bit mysterious, but, ah you know, we'll we'll add you in rather than saying,
00:05:11
Speaker
We're defining women as this, right? And so that is like very intentional. And or sometimes ah organizations choose to shift from kind of like who to what. And the what is really helpful because then it's a a little bit more expansive inclusion. For example, ah genders that are typically marginalized in society or face barriers to access or ah you know face some sort of ah systemic barriers or challenges. And in doing so that includes women, that includes non-binary folks, you know and and so forth. So there are ways to kind of think about it from different angles.
00:05:56
Speaker
But the reason why it's so important is so that folks, in doing it a thoughtful way so that people don't kind of feel like they're this other attached, slapped on the top. And, you know, you also wonder how well that's going to go because it's kind of more of a scramble to be like, oh, we didn't include everyone. Okay, quickly say something.
Genuine Inclusion Strategies
00:06:20
Speaker
um so But really it doesn't feel very authentic. Yeah. who You've just mentioned about this kind of tagging people on rather than actively including them and I was hoping that you could go into that a bit more when it comes to preparing the actual program content or systems or the spaces like physical spaces or just things that maybe people hadn't thought about rather than just saying um non-binary people are included and off you off you go there must be some thought in that when it comes to preparing this stuff
00:06:56
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, totally. So it's not just the the description itself. It goes ah hopefully deeper than that, where you look at basically from start to finish, you know, somebody coming in and almost test out the different areas to see where would somebody either trip up or not be fully included. You know, if it's a form that somebody has to fill out to be a part of the program or the organization, you know Does it include all the categories and even the the ways that, and because often single gender programs or or services, they often use very gender specific language. And if you say you're including non-binary folks, then you know saying women and girls doesn't quite hit the mark, right? You have to be a little bit more expansive from that. So just at at every step of the participation process, looking at, hey, okay, we have content on women, maybe we can add a few articles or, you know, booklets or pamphlets ah that are specific to non-binary folks. or specific to trans women, right? Appreciating that those experiences to some extent will be, a um there will be some distinction. There'll be things in common between cis and trans women, but there will also be distinct things. And so perhaps additional content to under score that. I've been, I've participated in men's programming, which was very affirming in my experience to be a part of men's groups. However, not everything was relevant to me, which is fine, but then there wasn't any other additional consideration for content that would be relevant to me. That would speak to me directly as a trans man, because I do have distinct experiences. so it is does require a little extra legwork to to gather those.
00:08:48
Speaker
And maybe in all instances, that not all instances, they might not exist. But that might also be an opportunity if it doesn't exist. Maybe your organization could help create those too, right? So it's not just end ending the conversation with like, oh, too bad there's not any resources. It's like, okay, what else could we do to contribute? um There's also looking at washrooms to see what kinds of options are available within your building or office or, you know, um space, but perhaps if there's not enough options, knowing where else people can go to have their needs met. There's looking at preparing participants as well. So just having people appreciate that not everybody coming through the door may look how society expects for
00:09:41
Speaker
their gender Of course, that's not just for trans people and non-binary people. That's also for cis people. So that's actually very helpful for a number of different
Assessing Organizational Culture
00:09:51
Speaker
people. So there's there's all these different places where it's really, um i wouldn't say minor adjustments, but certainly thoughtful adjustments that if prepared properly can respond. really be a powerful experience for everybody involved. So those are just a few suggestions for how to deepen beyond just the statement, you know, trans women or whoever the specific transgender inclusion is.
00:10:17
Speaker
Yeah. I really wanted to look into something you just said about preparing participants. And i think that's like probably quite important and maybe an aspect that people don't really think about is that there's, again, it's a bit more than just saying trans women are allowed in this space or non-binary people are allowed in this space. It is necessary for a conversation to happen amongst ah the people coming in, but also just like everybody in the space that they are going to be welcoming. And what does that preparation look like?
00:10:47
Speaker
Yeah, that's a a really important consideration. And organizations and programs, it's good to to think it through in terms of what's the culture of the space, the people in it, where are they at in their understanding? of gender diversity. Some may be well advanced. It's not an issue. If it's a queer men's group, for example, maybe not as much discussion, but if it's folks who have never encountered
Inclusivity Training and Awareness
00:11:17
Speaker
the 2SLGBTQIA community, then maybe just need to take a little bit more time
00:11:23
Speaker
Thinking about whether that's one-on-one conversations, group conversations, or both, right, to help folks understand. um And for them to appreciate that people come in different shapes, sizes, and looks and and and whatnot. And Not to to have it too narrowly focused on trans and non-binary folks, although that is probably a big driver in this conversation, but to have it more broadly said so that ah people, you're right, because many people in society are focused on how someone appears,
00:11:59
Speaker
if their appearance does not match their, uh, their gender identity or the gender identity of the space, then people can get lost in that. Um, and for some, it can bring up anxiety or you know, various emotional responses to that presence. Uh, to have people appreciate that, um,
00:12:24
Speaker
you know, gender identity and gender expression are different things essentially. Right. And so, so for example, with, when I go into men's spaces, most people don't know that I'm trans unless I've stated it, right. Because I look how society expects, but if another trans man who perhaps is say an early transition or um it has a more ah feminine gender expression and maybe chooses not to do undergo any form of, of gender affirming care, then yeah, that, that sticks out to many people and they either have questions, comments, you know, stares often. Right. And so just breaking that down for participants to be say, Hey, Let's not, we all could appreciate how we wouldn't want to stick out like sore thumbs and have that type of treatment. So let's afford that to these folks as well.
00:13:19
Speaker
Just sitting them down, walking them through different types of scenarios and saying, and sometimes even kind of practicing together. it sounds maybe a bit silly.
00:13:31
Speaker
But there's value, and and that takes off some of that um moment of taking aback, if if you've prepared folks for that.
00:13:41
Speaker
To say, we might have, if we're if we're a men's group, we might have somebody who who looks a little bit more feminine. We might have somebody who looks a little bit more androgynous. We might have somebody who looks masculine, and then we later on find out that that person was female assigned at birth, right? So just like, just give them the scenarios so that, and then say, you know, what are we going to do?
00:14:04
Speaker
Because we have these
Complexities in Gender Identity Inclusion
00:14:06
Speaker
values in our group. How are we going to live those values? And so involving folks, preparing folks can go a long way so that if, and when a person trans or non-binary person shows up, it's, it's not a big thing. And people are, are, know what to do and, You don't, don't feel out of, um it's not out of left field. It's like, okay, we, we, this and here it is. yeah, yeah just some ideas and suggestions.
00:14:35
Speaker
That's fair. um I have seen some spaces that are um single gender, but will say things like, for example, there is ah a woman's group, I won't name it. There's a woman's group not not far from me, who um says that they also include trans men in that space. And so yeah I find that quite interesting. And I was wondering if you could go into that because to me, that feels like it would be a very, like it wouldn't be very affirming to to that and also could bring up problems within the group too. And i was wondering if you had some thoughts on that, because I can see that people will be trying to be inclusive, but maybe, you well, in my opinion, have got a bit lost, but that doesn't matter. Maybe you have more insight there. Yeah.
00:15:22
Speaker
yeah Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's a really interesting one. I've seen that in many different places as well. So this is not maybe an overarching trend, but it's certainly, it pops up here and there. For example, in down in the United States, there are a handful of all women colleges. And each one of them has like trying to figure out how to, who to include, how to include students.
00:15:48
Speaker
And some have understandably gone, you know, trans women and non-binary folks, but then some have also included basically anyone female assigned at birth ah in terms of their sex. And that includes trans men. And that's how they've gone. And for me, I i understand the desire for inclusion.
00:16:10
Speaker
However, it is sometimes very but focused on sex at birth. And And a lot of our society, that's the starting point for understanding gender or starting and ending really. And so if the, the focus for trans folks is, is more often than not on gender identity, which is distinct from their sex at birth and sex at birth can be kind of painful or just something that we'd rather not think about or talk about. And so the the sometimes those programs are reverting back to a sex-based approach. And that is for many trans men not affirming, as you you guessed, right? And will not attend that type of meeting because, including myself, I would not feel comfortable.
Phased Approach to Inclusion
00:17:03
Speaker
In fact, I was in a peer support program where I was in a women's group that as I came out and then I said out of respect for this group I will no longer go to it because I am not a woman right and I want to honor this space that's been created and so we'll now leave but of course there was some pain to it because was part of a group and We had gone close to one another, shared things and whatnot. So, you know, some of the people in that group wanted me to stay and they were willing to kind of carve a space for me as a trans man. But then I said, hey, that doesn't help folks who are new to this group coming in and like, what the heck is this guy doing here? And so...
00:17:48
Speaker
and So I was just like, I don't think it works. And of course you can stay in touch outside of that group too. Right. So, um but there are some very small number of, of trans men for whom, you know, growing up being raised as, as a girl slash into adulthood as a woman, it, it it is a bit of a drop for them. Right.
00:18:13
Speaker
And so, and especially if it's like a close knit community, whether sports or, you know, a support group or whatever program, it can be a bit of a struggle to let go.
00:18:27
Speaker
And so there can be situations in which some trans men want to stay, perhaps not forever, but like as this interim thing. So yeah, so there's there's some nuance to that as well. But I would err on the side of of being very clear so that, as in defining it based on gender identity, rather than trying to do so much inclusion, right? Of course, there could be specific exceptions. I'm trying to think of some right now, but, you know, where there's some complicating or
00:19:03
Speaker
you know, other nuance that we're not thinking about here. So again, it's really up to the program to think that through. But I think the rationale is the key thing to anchor into, to make those types of, in some cases, tough decisions, right?
00:19:18
Speaker
For sure. You've talked to me before about um how in some cases people will do a sort of phased approach to inclusion and starting to include trans and non-binary people. And I was wondering if you could go into like when that would make sense to do that sort of phased approach and um what that actually looks like.
00:19:38
Speaker
Yeah, it's um phased approaches, I think, are really important, especially if an organization is maybe a bit larger or maybe a bit nervous to to take this on. Or perhaps there are stakeholders, whether participants or board members or whoever, who are expressing some concern or anxiety around this type of step. then it makes sense to do it more gradually, to understand what the needs are of the existing participants, understanding the needs of the incoming participants, trans and non-binary or and or non-binary, and then to kind of piece by piece build it over time. You could just try, what if you're an organization with multiple programs that are single gender, you just start with one program or one, you know,
00:20:30
Speaker
session or just and maybe not one session because you want to have it have some long-term effect, but just some area where it maybe makes a little bit more sense or it's easier to start. um Maybe agreeing, having existing participants understand and then agree to it, and then you know as ah as a like let's try it out type of approach, that can oftentimes take the edge off. Because if it's going to be forever, people can kind of dig in their heels a bit versus let's see where this goes and we just want to see what this is about. um
Defining Program Identities and Experiences
00:21:08
Speaker
And in doing so, there's much more ability to create um comfort and safety and actually be meaningful in that approach without having to kind of lock it in. Because if you have to figure everything out before launching something, that can be quite daunting rather than just starting small.
00:21:28
Speaker
Yeah, I can. And then getting feedback like from any participant, from all participants to say, you know how was your experience of this? um And if it makes sense to discuss it even. And and then once based on that feedback, then figuring out either adjusting slightly or maybe even a lot and or um building upon it. maybe it was a huge success and people really enjoyed it, valued it and got so much out of it because people got to share from their experiences, some in common, some distinct. And people were like, I want more of that. And then you can, of okay, well let's keep doing it. And, or there was some unexpected thing that came about and you find from various participants that they would like a little bit more kind of, um,
00:22:18
Speaker
ah kind of shared experiences. And then then it's important not to define it based on identity. And it's more about shared experiences of a group. And that can help because otherwise could get into a situation where you're like really splicing and dicing people.
00:22:36
Speaker
be right And that's again, the the who to what can be really powerful and helpful, right? um People who are I don't know, ah like ah people who are getting ready for pregnancy, you know, like that yeah yeah that's, that's a helpful, or if you want, you can put women and people, you know, um preparing for pregnancy as an example of like, okay, this is what they're sharing in common and they're trying to figure out a way forward. Yeah. So just some thoughts.
00:23:08
Speaker
here Transfocus has worked with a lot of organizations who are looking to to kind of um improve their inclusivity when it comes to trans and non-binary people.
TransFocus Consulting's Strategies
00:23:17
Speaker
And I was wondering if you have some examples um that you've seen or that you've worked with that that have been like have done this well, that have created this inclusion in a way that works really well and what specifically made their approach work?
00:23:32
Speaker
Yeah. So there are a handful of organizations where we came in and did consultation sessions. So talked to not just trans and non-binary folks who would have been interested in joining this single gender program or yeah offering.
00:23:51
Speaker
a But also to the existing people who came there to say, hey, we're thinking of adding, you know, these layers um and to kind of let them have their responses to that, which sometimes includes, you know, some anxiety or fear that things are going to change.
00:24:11
Speaker
that it'll be different, that you know whatever comes up, right? So i think those are important to listen to um while also still trying to figure out how to carve out space um and include trans and non-binary folks.
00:24:28
Speaker
In some instances that might require even a name change, which there's some complexity to that, right? Because somebody, some organization has like distinct branding, then adding folks, like adding folks, then you have to re rebrand in a way that you might not be as recognizable. And so to think that through, um, but it coming up with kind of clever ways to do that, that can still kind of keep some of the brand intact, uh, while perhaps changing some of the. ah the wording I'm being vague because I also ah i don't want to like yeah expressly state who that is because we haven't gotten permission. right We want to an honor and respect. i realize that yeah I realized that I sort of dropped that. i didn't just like Can you give us all the details of these organizations? Yes. They're the ins and outs. But yeah, I mean, we can still speak about it proudly. And I think what helped was the the thoughtful process that they were willing to undertake and to have iterative conversations about this. It's not kind of a one and and done. It's more
00:25:45
Speaker
we We're wanting to change. We're trying to figure out how much to change. That was like a big question is how much and how far. um Because there are situations in which at some point it becomes all gender, right? And then, and that's okay. There may be. good reason to do that in certain organizations. Um, but it's like, it's a, it's an intentional decision that is backed with rationale and, um, yeah. And just knowing exactly what one is going into, um,
00:26:22
Speaker
And also recognizing that for some, it'll be really exciting. For others, a little bit of a trepidation at first, but then ultimately on board. And then for some, it it won't work, right? And so there could also, it's important to know that there could be also a cost to that in terms of participants not wanting to continue with that organization.
Realistic Inclusivity Goals and Challenges
00:26:45
Speaker
Yeah.
00:26:45
Speaker
So is, it it is um there are layers to this. So that's important to to go through it thoughtfully. And we have seen that at various organizations. There are some organizations we've worked with that have said, we would love to include all kinds of ah trans and non-binary folks, but we're only willing to go, say, for example, in an all women's context, we're only willing to go to include trans women.
00:27:15
Speaker
And that's right. It's like, Hey, that's important. You've made that decision, including non-binary folks felt like they couldn't do it genuinely and fully to the extent that they wanted to. It wasn't that they they're like, nah, to non-binary folks. It's just, they just were realistic about what they could do. And I think that is really important. to be realistic rather than um aspirational.
00:27:43
Speaker
Because I think many people want to be inclusive. We want to include folks, but in some cases it's not possible for all given the realities of you know, resources and time and and whatnot.
00:27:58
Speaker
So, yeah. And that can always come later, I suppose. Yes, exactly. One thing I did want to specify though, non-binary folks are always there. i mean, I'm not saying anything that is going to shock you, Elle. No.
00:28:13
Speaker
yeah But so in some instances, if non-binary folks aren't included, basically it puts the people, the non-binary folks who are already in your midst in a bit of a bind, right?
00:28:28
Speaker
So either they just stay quiet about being non-binary, which some people choose to do, or they leave, or you know a whole number of things. Or they might be vocal about being non-binary, even though perhaps there's a like a so a more restrained scope has been drawn. So it's not as kind of cut and dry. like you know People exist everywhere. And so it's just like whether they're doing that honestly or not is kind of the the main thing.
00:28:57
Speaker
I think, yeah, that's other there are many women's groups that I've been part of um as a non-binary person that I have just not told people that I'm non-binary. So, yeah, it's whether they're included or not, they will be there.
00:29:13
Speaker
Exactly. Yeah, that's the thing. But it probably doesn't, I can imagine, and you can tell me if that's the case for you, it doesn't feel, yeah for me, it wouldn't feel great if that wasn't somehow given space for people.
Non-Binary Challenges in Gender Spaces
00:29:27
Speaker
No, and especially if it's sort of made clear that non-binary people are not... part of this like I've i've had one situation where uh women including trans women and that was the reason I went was because I was like great this is inclusive but then a conversation happened was like you know we're not ready to um expand that to non-binary people and i was like oh I'll keep mouth shut so and it's fine but it's but it's I understand that but also ah you're sort of
00:29:59
Speaker
unintentionally excluding someone who's already there. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then not being able to speak to that part, that would be awful. It's just like, I know some organizations can be hesitant. I appreciate people want to do that genuinely and fully. And so may think there's there's a lot of extra preparation. And there is preparation. Like, I don't want to say that there's nothing, because then we're getting into more the aspirational, like, oh, of course we include everyone, but not really. And so, yeah, we want to like include folks. And so then I'm definitely taking that step to to to do that, because
00:30:47
Speaker
Non-binary folks are are in our midst. I think it's similar to what you described that if somebody ah non-binary is already in the program, if the program actively decides not to include non-binary folks or explicitly, then that person is in a bind when there's not that much extra work to include non-binary folks.
00:31:10
Speaker
And so while i ah want people or organizations to be honest about how far they're able to go, ah i think also it's important to kind of maybe even push a little bit past one's comfort because and to to be able to achieve that. And perhaps it's in a gradual way, you know, i start with something and then continue to build. But I would really encourage ah to continue to build, especially for non-binary inclusion, just because there's no place else for non-binary folks to go, right? Like there gender-specific places, but there's no
00:31:48
Speaker
At least not for now, but maybe in the future there'll be non-binary specific places. But, you know, it's just like people need support and organizations can include.
00:32:02
Speaker
And it's it's not that much of an extra heavy lift.
Personal Experiences Pre and Post-Transition
00:32:05
Speaker
And it means the world to folks or it really makes a huge difference. And I think maybe there's ah another aspect of the transparency where it's like we want to include non-binary folks.
00:32:20
Speaker
We recognize that we don't have everything in place, right? Like we wish we had content and we wish we had, you know, X, Y, and Z, right? Whatever the thing is. um We want to train our facilitators, right? Or something.
00:32:35
Speaker
to be ready, better able to facilitate um more expansively in terms of gender. And then that at least gives people enough information to know what they're walking into. So non-binary folks can make an informed decision about what they're walking into.
00:32:54
Speaker
um But still, yeah, wish wish people could you know get up to speed. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. If it's okay with you, i would love to kind of close this with um talking about your experience, because you've told me about your time at university. And I'd love to to hear from you about that if you if you're up for it. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. So I, for my undergrad, I went to, before I came out as trans, I was at a all women's college. I went to Bryn Mawr and it you know, it was was a lovely experience. I really enjoyed it.
00:33:34
Speaker
You know, it's about 1200 or so students. It's in Philadelphia. And it's interesting because, you know, having gone to an all women's college,
00:33:46
Speaker
Now that I'm out as a trans man, that presents many different it challenges is too far, but kind of interesting interactions.
00:33:58
Speaker
So imagine when people ask me, where did you go to college, which sometimes comes up, where'd you go to university? I kind of first assess if they if they're from the East Coast, I'll be a little bit more cautious, right? If I don't want to out myself as trans, I will be careful, like who I share specific place that I went to college. If somebody is in the West Coast, they usually don't know Mawr. So I'm just like, okay, whatever. I'll just say it. Yeah.
00:34:26
Speaker
um But yeah, if they know that, you know, that Brimmar is an all-women's college, you know, that kind of outs me. as Or what has happened to me before when I forget about all of this is that I'll be like, yeah, I went to Bryn Mawr. I'm like, Bryn Mawr, that's great, you know, college, but when did it become co-ed or when did it go all gender, you know? And then i was like, it hasn't.
00:34:57
Speaker
Or sometimes like if if I really don't want to out myself, I'll just be like, I don't know. Or just like play dumb, right? So it's just like ah weird, awkward interactions based on if people know Bryn Mawr as being an all-women's college. And of course, all-women's colleges do shift out of that. So it's not like out of, yeah.
00:35:23
Speaker
out of question uh i have gone to the 10-year reunion many years ago uh at remar and that was interesting too yeah yeah yeah that was once i was out as a trans man and then i met you know a handful of other trans men so i was like okay oh really that's yeah that's interesting Yeah, so, and people are understanding and supportive and, you know, very kind. There's no big issue, but, you know, there's things like from a systems perspective, as an example is, you know, I get as an alum of Bremer, I get, you know, donation requests. And for the longest time, they kept saying Ms, right? Because they just automatically go to Ms, given that it's a gender specific organization. And so these are the small things, right, that if, you know, they're expanding and whatnot.
00:36:17
Speaker
But I think Bryn Mawr does include trans men in their admissions, if I remember correctly. Yeah. So as a trans man, yeah. ah Back to your we original. It's interesting.
00:36:33
Speaker
I I know. It was very controversial when they voted on it. i can't remember how many years ago. Really? So, yeah. So just, it's it's an interesting situation to to go to an all-women's Obviously, it's it's a well-respected university. It's, you know, excellent education. know, so beyond the gender piece, I understand. But unfortunately,
00:36:56
Speaker
if it is advertised and, you know, positioned as a women's college, it doesn't, like, they're not intending this, but they are kind of saying trans men aren't men.
00:37:11
Speaker
Right. Yeah. Right. Because they're not going to admit a cisgender man. Right. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So interesting stuff. and Yeah, I'm trying to think of what else as it pertains to being having gone to an all women's college, but those are some of the kind of interesting experiences as having gone to that kind of tender specific space.
Suggestions for Organizational Inclusivity
00:37:33
Speaker
Thank you so much for sharing that. If you're an ah gender specific organization or program and are starting to think about expanding to trans and or non binary folks, it's really helpful understand.
00:37:52
Speaker
um Ask yourself some questions as a kind of first step into what's at play, you know, thinking about where to look and um how to prepare things, what it would kind of take to make those adjustments. So that people can be truly welcomed and included. And so, yeah, it's ah it's a very brief resource, but at least it gets the ball rolling for your organization and starts to help you and your leadership clarify things. So hopefully it's a useful step in in a much bigger process. Yeah.
00:38:28
Speaker
Yeah, that's what we're going to offer and it'll be in the show notes in case it's of interest. And even if you're not a single gender org or program, yeah, it's well worth taking a look to see how we can kind of expand beyond just one single gender.
00:38:49
Speaker
Great. Thank you so much, Kai. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. See next week.