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Step Aside, Superman! This Isn’t About You
13 Plays18 days ago
Sometimes helping doesn’t help.
In this episode, we’re unpacking saviourism... the kind that sneaks in when we want to do good, but end up taking up space that wasn’t ours to begin with. We explore how it differs from real, respectful allyship and what it looks like to support inclusion without stepping into the spotlight.
Saviourism can be hard to spot in ourselves. It often shows up wrapped in good intentions: speaking on behalf of someone instead of making room for their voice, leading change without listening first, or rushing in to fix things that need a bit more time to develop.
It’s not about having perfect answers, but it is about noticing the impact of what we do, even when the intention is good. This episode is an invitation to reflect, recalibrate and keep showing up in ways that don’t take over.
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We want your feedback! Got some ideas about how we can improve the podcast?! We’ve made a short, painless survey to find out what you think, what you want more of... and what topics you'd love to hear us cover next. Let us know your thoughts here
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Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
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Transcript
Introduction to Gender in Focus Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm Elle and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
lot of people misunderstand. They think that stepping up is kind somehow bigger or better than stepping aside. But I actually think both are equally important and stepping aside so powerful sometimes.
Allyship vs Saviorism
00:00:34
Speaker
allyship is patient it's not allyship isn't diving in and and getting things fixed that day yeah but actually it's so it can be ah slow progress over a long time
00:00:52
Speaker
In this episode, we dig into the murky waters of saviorism. What is it? Why it's more harmful than helpful and how it differs from genuine allyship. We unpack the difference between stepping up and stepping aside and how to determine which move supports inclusion rather than centering yourself.
00:01:11
Speaker
I share a personal story from the time in the minding industry where good intentions took an unexpected turn, offering insight into how even well-meaning actions can backfire.
00:01:22
Speaker
If you've ever wondered how to be helpful without taking over, this episode is for you. And as always, i am joined by my esteemed colleague, Elle.
00:01:33
Speaker
What's Shaken? Oh, I've not heard that phrase for before. I know, I know, it's new. was like, she how are you doing? Let's try something new. Although what's shaking is so vague, right? Yeah, I don't know what's shaking. I am feeling great. How are you doing?
00:01:49
Speaker
I'm doing ok Proving that we don't always have to be great, which, yeah. That's true.
Understanding Saviorism
00:01:59
Speaker
Let's talk about saviorism. I'm kind of excited about this one because it feels um funny to me, mainly because I feel like we've probably all been in a position of maybe receiving saviorism, but also kind of being the savior.
00:02:14
Speaker
i definitely feel like I can name a hundred times I've done that. So yeah. ah It's silly and human and usually well-intentioned, but it is problematic.
00:02:28
Speaker
So yes do you mind kind of going into what saviourism is and why it is so problematic? Right, right. ah It's coming from a good intention, even if misplaced. And so that's that difficult balance between it's not that somebody is a bad person. It's just perhaps they haven't thought through what they're doing and how it lands on the other side with the other person.
00:02:52
Speaker
So what is saviorism? It's a very important place to start, defining terms that people are like, what? There's this new term and they perhaps have not heard of it, or they've heard of it in a different context.
00:03:05
Speaker
But it's essentially when somebody, ah usually, as we mentioned, from coming from a good place, steps into a situation and ah either has their own conception of what needs to happen and kind of imposes that on the situation, or can be overly inclusive in ways where that's not what the other person needs or wants and hasn't kind of a taken account of that.
00:03:31
Speaker
ah or ah considered it, a and is kind of it's a bit of a bull in a china shop, ah where it's just ah kind of bumping into things and and misplacing their efforts and can, you know, unintentionally cause harm or at the very least, a frustration and annoyance on the other side.
00:03:53
Speaker
ah It can look like over apologizing as well. Sometimes people are pretty self-conscious of the mistakes that they make and can then kind of overdo their apology by, you know, making it about them, essentially.
00:04:07
Speaker
And so this kind of a bit of ah a reverse Uno situation, if you know the the card in Uno that reverses things. so Yes. you know, perhaps but another person has experienced a challenging situation, but that person then reverses it and and the focus is back on them.
00:04:27
Speaker
um And so that's some of the dynamic that's at play in saviorism and why it isn't great.
Saviorism vs Allyship Dynamics
00:04:33
Speaker
What's the difference then between being a savior and being an ally? Because most, most saviors are allies or they're trying to be allies. are They're developing allies. So what, what is the actual difference?
00:04:46
Speaker
Yeah, I think it comes down to confidence. So when somebody is in a savior mode, they're usually pretty anxious, wondering if they're doing the right thing ah or perhaps, you know, overdoing it and not thinking it through or reading the cues, right? Right.
00:05:06
Speaker
And for an ally, they have some knowledge of what is valuable to do in a situation, have a few things at the ready, but are actually trying to be in tune with the other person that is facing the challenge, the actual challenge, to see what it is that they actually need or want, ah asking them if it's appropriate in that moment, um or coming with ideas, but also open to their ideas,
00:05:33
Speaker
right So it's more of a collaborative effort than it is about, I know what's best and I'm going to kind of make that happen. um Another way that it it shows up is um when somebody is in kind of saviorism mode is that therere they're telling other people, they're kind of reading them the riot act.
00:05:53
Speaker
right on behalf of, ah ah say, trans and non-binary folks, ah but not realizing that that can also backfire on trans and non-binary folks, ah that even, again, they're trying to kind of stand up for trans and non-binary folks, but by virtue of how they do it, that can land flat and also...
00:06:16
Speaker
the the consequences of that are not borne by the person saying those, by the the savior in that instance. It's borne actually by the trans and non-binary folks because they'll be like, well, you know, trans people, they expect too much or they want special treatment. Right. They've got people kind of up in arms and and and being mean to us, you know, that kind of, you know, misunderstanding of the situation. Right.
00:06:40
Speaker
So those are some of the dynamics at play. But my kind of baseline understanding or distinction between the two is what level of confidence somebody has and how they apply that, right? And if you have feel like you have too little or too much confidence, that can put you closer in the savior camp versus just just being confident and and um also open ah to what the trans and non-binary needs are in that moment.
00:07:08
Speaker
I was wondering if you could go into that a little bit more about the consequences of somebody leaning into saviorism. You said about how the people and who end up having to deal with that are the trans and non-binary people themselves.
00:07:20
Speaker
So I was wondering if you could go into that a little bit further and can you give like some examples of what that might look like? Like you sort of touched on it, but. Yeah. Yeah. To make it more concrete rather than conceptual. Yeah.
00:07:33
Speaker
Yeah, so there's kind of a few different ways that that shows up for trans and non-binary folks. So if somebody, a trans or a non-binary person directly experiences saviorism, that can be felt in a few different ways.
00:07:48
Speaker
One is confusion. Like, what is this person talking about? ah They're not kind of attuned to me and or what's happening in the situation. Another is frustration,
00:08:00
Speaker
To be like, I'm not asking for this. I'm needing something else, right? There can be a kind of quiet wanting to distance oneself from this kind of very strong energy that somebody who is exercising saviorism is exhibiting. And that can be very off-putting for many trans and non-binary folks to the point where You may not want to like really be close to this person um because they're missing the mark.
00:08:29
Speaker
It can mean things where some trends and non-binary folks will say something, be like, that this doesn't work for me, what you're doing or saying or ah You think you're trying something you're trying to be an ally, but you're not, right?
00:08:46
Speaker
And so we'll spell things out. Not always, right? Depends on how much energy somebody has to how much they can unpack that with somebody. So if that is something that somebody feedback somebody gives that's really important to receive even though it's uncomfortable.
00:09:02
Speaker
Of course we'd all like to be these great allies um that make no mistakes. But if somebody provides feedback that's really important to listen to and to take seriously.
00:09:13
Speaker
um The other instance that I was talking about before is is if somebody exhibiting saviorism kind of read somebody the riot act, another person yeah without the trans person being in the mix, right? They're not there to witness that.
00:09:28
Speaker
But that the other the person receiving that kind of diatribe will often... want to avoid trans and non-binary people issues, they'll be very kind of suspicious sometimes.
00:09:44
Speaker
And it might even feed into misconceptions that they already have to be like, yeah, i kind of knew that they were, you know, just really sensitive people who like they require so much extra stuff from us, you know, just any other kinds of misconceptions that folks have.
00:10:03
Speaker
And then whether in a workplace context or out in everyday life that, you know, that trans or non-binary person will experience that kind of blowback.
00:10:14
Speaker
It might be subtle ways where, you know, suddenly these people don't want to hang out with a trans person anymore you know, They, you know, might see something on social media, you know, there's a whole number of different ways that that shows up, but there is something, there's a consequence for that.
00:10:31
Speaker
And some people, they might either start or continue down a more radical pathway to being anti-trans, right? And maybe already are on that path. And then this just further pushes them down that path, right?
00:10:47
Speaker
right So there can be some pretty grave consequences with this type of approach.
Cultural Contexts of Saviorism
00:10:52
Speaker
Some concrete examples are when there's mis- and disinformation about trans and non-binary folks, we do encourage people to say something to people.
00:11:03
Speaker
But I think it's just how you say that that makes a huge difference. So if somebody says, how could you think that? That's so stupid. Or what are you talking about? you know, just that kind of condescension and almost vitriol towards that person rather than appreciating that.
00:11:22
Speaker
these people have heard and been exposed to all kinds of messaging and maybe are just trying to figure their way through all of this very confusing, very different messages, right?
00:11:34
Speaker
So it's having a bit of compassion for somebody and kind of sitting them down and and walking them through it without being condescending or hurtful. That's one example.
00:11:45
Speaker
The over-apology was mentioning before can be another one. That was my favorite pastime activity. Is it? it used to be. Tell me more.
00:11:57
Speaker
though that was my- Is this a confession from past-
00:12:02
Speaker
No, that was how my my allyship showed up was through the over-apology. And you know I'd feel so much guilt and shame and like horror for messing up something that I really deeply cared about.
00:12:15
Speaker
And you know I really wanted to get it right. i really wanted to do the right thing. And so when I didn't, I would apologize for the next 30 years or something ah to make it better, only to have somebody once do it to me and for me to go, oh my God, this is so annoying.
00:12:31
Speaker
And then that, that change, needed I needed to to have it done to me to really grasp how unhelpful and frustrating it is to be on the other side. And that, that sparked a rather quick learning curve.
00:12:45
Speaker
So yeah, the over-apology is, is one that I'm familiar with. I have a lot of sympathy, empathy for, ah but also stop that. Yeah.
00:12:56
Speaker
I mean, is you're right. the the if you're on the receiving end, it's a quick realization of like how unhelpful and, yeah, it's counter to what the intended purpose of it is, right?
00:13:10
Speaker
And to some degree, I think we want to there's this correlation between guilt and showing caring. So if I show you how guilty I feel inside, hopefully you'll know that I care, right?
00:13:24
Speaker
And it doesn't quite translate in that way, as you experienced. We don't feel that as caring. ah we want to like We'd rather people stop doing that.
00:13:35
Speaker
There's other ways to show caring too, right? so But it takes a while to like unpack that, right? And it's a bit tricky. And that's why we're doing a podcast episode on it, just because it can be this kind of really fine, nuanced point that is important to to talk to.
00:13:54
Speaker
so And it's you know not meant to blame or shame anyone, just we may not realize we're doing it. And it's just an opportunity to reflect. I could definitely see that when I was doing that, I was re all I really wanted was for someone to tell me that they had forgiven me and that it was all okay. then we don't need to think about it again, but that's not the reality of their situation. Actually, sometimes like it isn't okay.
00:14:19
Speaker
And so what they're going to have to do to stop you, to shut you up, is to bypass how they actually feel in order to soothe you, the person who's done the thing. And that's, you're then turning, so it's the opposite of allyship. You're turning this thing into, into and it's of course it's not meant that way. I didn't mean it in that way, but I think we are centering ourselves in order to su to soothe ourselves and and not really taking into account the harm that's been done or even if it wasn't harm, like it's become harm because we're taking the attention off of the thing that's happened and off of the person that's been on the receiving end of that.
00:14:58
Speaker
So it's well-intentioned, but problematic for sure. It's very tricky for sure. Cause there's a psychology to it, even if unconscious or subconscious so where,
00:15:10
Speaker
we want to know that we're good people and we I mean hopefully we know that we are already maybe we have different pathways to that of all of us but that we shouldn't be looking for that reassurance from somebody who we've hurt even if unintentionally And it's not to say that, you know, we should, if we've done something misstepped in any way that there's no place to process. It's just not with that person.
00:15:41
Speaker
Right. And right feelings of guilt or whatever's come up. Right. Maybe there is a need to go and list somebody else to talk those things through, right?
00:15:52
Speaker
So there's ways to show caring that aren't about guilt. There's ways to get help that aren't with indirect contact with that person that we've harmed. Another example is knowing a little bit of information and then sometimes there's quite a bit of diversity within any community, but also within trans and non-binary folks. So we might have one piece of information and then we suddenly think that that's for everyone.
00:16:21
Speaker
And then we've kind of imposed that on somebody who's trans and non-binary to be like, no, no, no, this is the thing, right? um Kind of telling them. what's right, quote unquote. yeah And we've got to be really careful of that.
00:16:38
Speaker
And that doesn't just happen in the trans and non-binary communities. I've seen that happen within Indigenous circles where somebody has some familiarity with an Indigenous culture or practice, and then will start to tell people within that practice or that ah nation, what's up?
00:16:56
Speaker
And I'm like, whoa, but that's that's a whole nother level. And they're doing it from like, they want to maintain the integrity of that cultural practice. Like I i understand it's coming from a good place, even if it's very ill-informed, um but it's still like so important to maintain a humility that even myself as deeply as I'm integrated and ingrained in trans and in non-binary communities, I still have tons to learn also.
00:17:31
Speaker
And so do allies, right? And so that humility piece is super important so that we're not kind of off us course with the intent to kind of save something or in like especially the integrity of something.
00:17:48
Speaker
Can I tell you one that happened this weekend? ah You have a recent example? Yeah. Please. One of my friends who is a trans woman has not quite let go of the, and not and nor should she if she doesn't want to, the ah Harry Potter thing.
00:18:04
Speaker
And so she she was listening to an audio book on the way to the pub. And it was that there was like the fourth Harry Potter book or something. And an ally saw on her phone and was like, you should not be listening to that.
00:18:18
Speaker
ah and like basically gave a lecture about it and uh of course like a lot of people have pretty strong feelings about jk rowling and harry potter understandably i just don't know that you should be telling a trans woman what she should and shouldn't do regarding the trans community so that is a really good example that you know almost um you have to kind of fall in line everybody has to fall in line But there was no meeting for us to get on the same page. And there's such a complex relationship with the Harry Potter books, right?
00:18:52
Speaker
Right. Yeah. In general, but also specifically for trans and non-binary folks. So it's a it's not an easy road to figure out.
Trusting Trans and Non-Binary Voices
00:19:02
Speaker
giving and giving grace and compassion for all the different pathways.
00:19:07
Speaker
and And for, I think, cis people know and you know who care a lot about about trans people and trans community, of course, they can see the harm that's perpetuated by J.K. Rowling.
00:19:19
Speaker
And I think there is a kind of need to trust that trans and non-binary people are aware of that harm and can make those decisions for themselves. You know, like there is no trans woman in Canada, in Britain, in any other English speaking country, at least who isn't aware of what JK Rowling is saying. and And, you know, I think we can trust that that they can make those decisions for themselves.
00:19:42
Speaker
So. Absolutely. Yeah. we're We're not giving people the right act about, say, Ellen DeGeneres, right? Hopefully not. Maybe we are. You know? not Yeah. But sometimes we can get some parallels so that people can understand to be like, oh, yeah, that'd be kind of gross if somebody did that to me on another topic, right?
00:20:01
Speaker
Right. And also to to have curiosity before judgment, which... admittedly is hard, especially on something as kind of big as JK Rowling or any other kind of person who has positioned themselves against trans folks, right?
00:20:21
Speaker
ah So, but yeah, curiosity can go a long way to realizing that there's um a blend of different ways of approaching things. So, and might provide some insights. I don't know.
00:20:35
Speaker
Maybe. Maybe. Good example though. Thanks. I couldn't because I knew that we were doing the podcast episode. I like, yes, pop that in the book. So, ah yeah.
00:20:47
Speaker
So there is ah maybe a bit of confusion then when it comes to saviorism and allyship as to where... the line is between knowing when to step up and you're in a position where you should speak out about something and when to maybe hold back or step aside.
00:21:03
Speaker
And I was wondering if you could go into that because I can see that that might be quite tricky to find the balance. a Yeah. And for me, it's not so much.
00:21:15
Speaker
I think a lot of people are are wanting something almost script like, right? You know, if it's this very specific situation, then it's this very specific script.
00:21:26
Speaker
I'll probably probably write something more broad and suggest that it's a practice,
Practicing Reflective Allyship
00:21:31
Speaker
right? Right. Where sometimes we'll be on mark, other times we'll be off. And more the the useful part is more the reflection after the fact to be like, how did I feel about that?
00:21:43
Speaker
you know What was the reaction of the other person? What are other things? Maybe other people were part of the conversation. What did they think? you know So it's it's not so much about getting it 100% right. um I say that as much for trans and non-binary allies as much as myself as an ally of other people.
00:22:01
Speaker
Because as soon as I want 100% perfection, I'm going to fail and it's going to be miserable for everybody. So that's one piece of advice, like before even jumping into some general guidance, the stepping up versus stepping aside.
00:22:17
Speaker
um Whenever I'm in a situation like that, I tend to, you know, and try to understand what kind of situation it is. Right. If it's just me with somebody else, it's very clear that I'm going to be stepping up, right?
00:22:32
Speaker
It's not like, say, somebody I'm wanting to be an ally to is there. And so and where I want to assess if they want to jump in. No, it's just very straightforward.
00:22:43
Speaker
They've said something and I'm going to figure out how to say it. So I'm not creating backlash or backfire. um But I'm going to try to say something as much as I can. Or...
00:22:54
Speaker
Be like, hey, this is a really important topic. I'm not quite fully mentally, don't have the full mental capacity, but I would like to revisit this. That could even be an option too, right? So stepping up doesn't necessarily mean addressing it fully in that moment.
00:23:09
Speaker
We also have to assess our own ability at that point. It's all good. Now, where it gets a little more complicated between step up versus a side is when there's a the person that I'm trying to be an ally to or their group, right?
00:23:22
Speaker
Where I want to, whether having talked to that person beforehand and sorted out a strategy if I know them pretty well, or just visually taking in kind of where they're at.
00:23:35
Speaker
If somebody has misstepped and somebody shoots me a glance, I'm not going to, like, I'm going to start to assess that that's probably something of, like, help.
00:23:45
Speaker
Yeah. you know, or at the very least it's like a confirmation. Yes. That you heard that. Right. I heard that too, you know, and being like, what, you know? So, and if somebody isn't stepping in within the first, you know, say three seconds,
00:24:02
Speaker
that's a long time, you know, but immediately, um then if there's a gap there, that's where I try to then step into that gap, right? Often is that somebody is tired, maybe has already tried to address this, doesn't feel safe to address this, whole number of reasons why people don't step in into that moment.
00:24:24
Speaker
But that that ah vacuum is an invitation, So we can then fill that vacuum. And again, being considerate of what's happening. You know, if this is a meeting during ah workplace situation where it's real tense and, you know, it's probably not a good opportunity to go into the depths of the issue at that moment.
When to Step Up or Step Aside
00:24:45
Speaker
But enough to flag it to say, hey, I've noticed this has happened. I know we can't get into it right now. I think we should revisit it. And let's talk about it tomorrow, you know, whatever.
00:24:56
Speaker
Name a timescale. But if it's just, say, the three people, then it's much easier. But again, if it's a boss versus, you know, the ah trans person is a frontline staff, you want to be sensitive to that dynamic as well, right?
00:25:09
Speaker
But where somebody starts to jump in, it's probably not at the the time and place. So if that trans and non-binary person wants to address it themselves, then I'm more in a step-aside stance of like, if they turn to me and are looking for some sort of, you know, bolstering of what they said, then that might be another additional, but it's more to underline what that person has already said rather than adding a bunch of new stuff, right?
00:25:37
Speaker
Mm-hmm. So there's that there's the looping back to the person that has been harmed after the fact to see, if there's more things that they want beyond the interaction that has happened. So that's more of a step aside in the background, but it's still very powerful.
00:25:56
Speaker
And I think lot of people misunderstand. They think that stepping up is kind somehow bigger or better than stepping aside. But I actually think both are equally important and stepping aside so powerful sometimes.
00:26:11
Speaker
Yeah. And it doesn't mean inaction, right? It just means kind of more backgrounded action. It's very, I think it can be very empowering. And I think like, if that's the goal is to be an ally to the group of people, whoever it is that you're supporting to empower them by being supportive, but not taking up the space that's not for you is a, is a really beautiful way to be an ally. I think it's like super powerful.
00:26:37
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. So well put that you have to think about what's the objective of my support. And it truly is for folks to feel safe, confident, ready to be able to, to take action and and be heard in that action.
00:26:54
Speaker
And sometimes if something hasn't quite landed, ah step aside action might be go back to the person who made the mistake and and be like, hey, you know, just check in and see how that landed for you.
00:27:07
Speaker
And if that person maybe hasn't absorbed or digested it, to reemphasize what that trans or non-binary person said, right? um Because that can be some of the background work that can be helpful.
00:27:22
Speaker
um But yeah, it is truly overwhelming. Hopefully most places could allow that. ah Sadly, ah we do see situations in which people don't feel safe or able or ready to do that, in which case there is an important role for allies to play.
00:27:40
Speaker
But I i advise um to talk about it beforehand because then you get the most clarity about what somebody's needs specific needs are.
00:27:51
Speaker
And more often than not, trans and non-binary folks are fairly clear no, I'd like to handle it on my own. Thank you for offering. Or like, I am so beyond exhausted in this workplace or this situation.
00:28:04
Speaker
Please just step in. Or they might say, hey, i yeah might vary. And so you come up with a secret symbol or signal that you send each other to be like, as if I tap my nose three times, like,
00:28:19
Speaker
It's a little obvious. If I do an eagle cry. Yeah, yeah. Like, whoa, that's very intense. But something where you can can know between the two of you that help would be welcome.
00:28:33
Speaker
So you said something a bit earlier that I really loved, which is about kind of leading with curiosity rather than judgment. And I think that that's a super powerful way to to do this sort of stepping in.
00:28:46
Speaker
A lot of people feel like stepping in does look like maybe not reading the riot act, but does look like being a sort of, for want of a better word, a bit aggressive about it. But, and and the way that that can backfire allyship is patient.
00:28:59
Speaker
It's not, Aliship isn't diving in and and getting things fixed that day. yeah But actually it's, so it can be ah slow progress over a long time.
00:29:11
Speaker
And the thing that always makes me, I always think of, I can't remember his name, but there was this guy in America, he's a black guy. And he, over a period of time, slowly made friends with individual members of the KKK and is responsible for like 200, 300 KKK members like disrobing.
00:29:29
Speaker
And it's, that is that slow humanization of, of the community that you're trying to protect is a really beautiful thing. And and I wanted to get you to talk about that.
00:29:41
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And, and yeah, I'm, I'm glad you teased that thread out. because we are so action oriented, at least in the West and, you know, like fix a problem and do it stat and preferably yesterday vibes, you know, and certainly there are,
00:30:03
Speaker
grave issues at hand, right? So the sense of urgency is not misplaced, right? But in the day-to-day interactions with each other, like one-on-one or in small groups, those do need to well, okay, I say need, right? But um who am I?
00:30:24
Speaker
I have found the most effective, and I've tried all the strategies,
Effective Allyship Approaches
00:30:28
Speaker
mind you. um The high-pressure, you know reading the riot act and finger pointing. And I've done that.
00:30:35
Speaker
I've done that in spades. However, i found that didn't move much, if anything, retraction, right? And so upon reflection, i have found more effective um and connective too. Like it feels good for me too, when I am calm, kind,
00:30:57
Speaker
gentle doesn't mean that you're not saying, hey, that's not cool, right? It is still being direct, ah but just how helpful. really helpful and that we don't have to get it all done at at once. It's not like we're getting performance reviews on our allyship, right?
00:31:16
Speaker
So it's not like, okay, what are my stats for this month, right? Like, there's none of that. So take the time and to to be with somebody in their not knowing or misinformed or whatnot.
00:31:31
Speaker
And, you know, I've been, we've been doing interviews and focus groups and with allies. And one of the thank lovely ideas has been, you know, have meals with folks. It sounds really simple.
00:31:44
Speaker
And I think we want maybe sometimes something more grand. yeah But it is just these seeds that are planted that bear fruits at different times. Everybody's contributing some seeds.
00:31:56
Speaker
You know, it's not just one person, the the ally. That's another feature of saviorism also, right? It's that I am going to be the one, right? When it's actually... a composite of people. Like there's a lot of people contributing to us, you know, getting up to speed, myself included on other equity issues, right? Like I've had a lot of contribution from different types of people saying things in different ways that connect internally to whatever, you know, framing or thinking I have, right?
00:32:26
Speaker
Yeah, for sure. So I think this don't need to fix it one day. It's usually patience over time, like you were describing. And that really, and the curiosity being a key driver in that.
00:32:40
Speaker
Like, what do you mean by that? You know, not in a like throw it back at them, but just more like, where is that coming from? And actually that kind of thing in dialogue with people who have very different thoughts on all kinds of matters has unlocked things that are beneath the initial statement.
00:32:57
Speaker
Cause there's a lot of things that people are not saying outright, but when you dig a little bit deeper, you're like, oh, that's about order or that's about safety or these bigger concepts, right?
00:33:08
Speaker
There's this idea, I think, that if you're like, let's say, for example, you're transphobic, therefore you are evil. And actually, if you dig a little bit past that, like abrasiveness, there's usually ah fear or something that they care about that they're trying to protect or and like misguided. But that's where you can find the humanity.
00:33:31
Speaker
as humans, we want pretty similar things or almost the same things, but, um, you know, maybe have a different, approach to it or maybe it looks so different on the surface but isn't really once you go beneath so i also it's interesting i know sometimes as allies we really want to say something but i would encourage um or invite occasionally sometimes just also listening which feels kind of intimidating and a bit like oh i don't know it's risky have somebody kind of go on and on um
00:34:07
Speaker
But I have found that sometimes, not all the times, and sometimes need to contribute, but sometimes somebody unravels themselves. And want to give space for that because it's so much more powerful for somebody to unravel themselves rather than me you know kind of pointing to a bunch of stuff, right?
00:34:27
Speaker
If they can discover it themselves, like that's, you know, talk about empowerment. That's it's a form. It's so effective as well. yeah You can't really argue with yourself once you've realized. so True.
00:34:40
Speaker
it's It's more subtle than, you know, perhaps we're used to, but yeah, very powerful. Just have somebody come to their own realizations. Yeah. So there's many different pathways, right?
00:34:53
Speaker
So, Kai, you mentioned at the beginning, and I think it would be remiss of me not to bring it up, which is your own story of saviorism.
Personal Story and Lessons Learned
00:35:01
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. When I was working in the mining industry, i was looking at the social impacts of mining on nearby communities of proposed mining developments.
00:35:13
Speaker
Primarily Indigenous, so I had a lot of, I did a lot of work with Indigenous nations. So interviews and focus groups and collecting census data and so forth and so forth.
00:35:24
Speaker
So I was often in communities, um you know, interviewing. And I thought I was doing a really good I was doing good work, right?
00:35:36
Speaker
And thought very highly of myself. And, you know, it's not that I was doing bad work, but now I have a much more nuanced view of what I was doing, right? Working for mining companies to inform a proposed, you know, environmental assessment, yada, yada, yada. Anyways, that's a whole nother podcast ah for that nuanced view. But obviously, many indigenous community members were not excited that I was there.
00:36:03
Speaker
um And there was a disconnect between me thinking I was doing good work and them not wanting to provide information. And, you know, it's not that I ever was pushy or I was very sensitive to, you know, people want provide information. Right.
00:36:20
Speaker
But, you know, i had this air of, you know, doing the right thing. And whether communicated through words, or, you know, how I showed up, it was, it was pretty obvious that and, you know, that was very,
00:36:35
Speaker
hurtful to many who this were these were their sacred lands, they're they they you know berry picked or hunted. And now this you know I was a part of an effort to to change that land in very significant and harmful ways.
00:36:53
Speaker
And yeah, I ah once, well, not even once, a few times, um you know got told off. And you know but basically, like you're not here to help us. Don't even try to pretend, right?
00:37:08
Speaker
And that was hard to hear, right? Because in my 20s, I was very idealistic. To some degree, I still am pretty optimistic. But ah yeah, that was that was painful to hear.
00:37:19
Speaker
and But I did take it to heart um and started to reflect more deeply on the dynamics, the the power imbalances, and you know, came to a better understanding. Now it wasn't overnight. It's not like I suddenly saw the light and was like, thank you for um showing me the way, but it did start to unpack that saviorism that I had. I thought i was there to, you know, make things better for them.
00:37:50
Speaker
And that was very much not the case. And, you know, whether it was culturally, you know, or linguistically, you even economically, right? So that was jarring, but necessary.
00:38:04
Speaker
right that that And it was the beginning of an awakening that ultimately I shifted away from that type of work. So um yeah, it was good to hear that, even though it was difficult in those moments where it happened.
00:38:19
Speaker
ah Well, thank you for sharing it because I think that a lot of people feel like someone who is within, let's say an equity equity group, but also like you're in a position of having a lot of knowledge about that. It's your job to teach people about that.
00:38:34
Speaker
So the idea of you also like not being a perfect ally all the time to other groups is I think maybe quite powerful to see that it's not, true you're not just like, it's not this fountain of knowledge and then that's where it ends. Like there's always learning for no no matter who you are.
00:38:51
Speaker
Yeah. And those things are sometimes even, hard one, right? in And difficult pathways. And of course, I'm very deeply grateful for those people taking the effort, right?
00:39:06
Speaker
Because of course, it takes a lot of effort to tell somebody, hey, yeah you know, you're off base, way off base. And so in so many words, but yeah, and that we all have our own kind of allyship journeys that deepen and grow if we allow them to too, right?
00:39:23
Speaker
There has to be a degree of openness to receiving that information. It's like, o because we all want to be the good guy or the good people, right? So, you know, for me, it's like, what do you mean? I'm not the good guy. I mean, obviously, baseline, good person, but, of course you know, complex actions.
00:39:41
Speaker
yeah Nobody really, nobody really does things thinking that they're the baddie in someone's story, I would imagine. Exactly, the villain. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's fair. So to end, Kai, I wanted to ask you, well, one, do you have any sort of final words? But also I wanted to ask you, what does healthy, non-savior like allyship actually look like in the end?
00:40:06
Speaker
Well, the first thing is it doesn't mean 100% perfection.
Concluding Thoughts on Healthy Allyship
00:40:10
Speaker
I think that's what people think it is. They're like, I'll ride off into the sunset and never make it a mistake again. you It's like, no.
00:40:17
Speaker
i But to the degree that...
00:40:23
Speaker
you know An ally can make themselves aware of the issues to avoid mistakes as much as possible, but then when mistakes happen, to be able to correct them and to be aware of a situation to know what kind of contribution, if any, to make.
00:40:39
Speaker
And there's a bit of an emotional intelligence to discerning what and when and how ah to show up. And also there for me, there's a degree of commitment that I am committing to being a part of the solution, as much as I'm aware of that in small and big ways, and can contribute to that.
00:41:05
Speaker
That is another hallmark. And the humility and curiosity were another kind of main feature. So recognizing that I might know a lot, but that almost puts me in a riskier position of thinking that I know everything and I don't. I never know everything. And so being open to knowing more um and every situation presents a new opportunity to see what else there is to learn.
00:41:34
Speaker
And then the last one I would add is gratitude. So anytime somebody takes time to share something personally with me, I feel very grateful for that and not entitled to it.
00:41:47
Speaker
Because like, that's could be a big effort on their part. um Or even if it's a small effort that they've then had to do it to other people times 1000.
00:41:59
Speaker
That could be a lot. Anyways, so I just always want to be grateful. um And can you think of any ah other features? The big big one is curiosity over judgment. That would be like my ultimate.
00:42:12
Speaker
Like that's the goal it will for me at least. Don't always get it perfect. But the goal is to always stay stay curious above above judgment. Excellent. Amazing. Well, we do have a resource on saviorism. Kai, would you mind going into that bit?
00:42:28
Speaker
Yeah, this is a great resource that we're going to link in the show notes at basically going back to the definition, you know, what's the difference between saviorism and allyship, which we spoke to briefly in this podcast, but kind reiterate within the allyship.
00:42:44
Speaker
There's different types of things that one can do and knowing the difference, right? We talked about step up and step aside, but there's also step down, which we didn't talk about.
00:42:56
Speaker
And then really great examples just to illustrate some of what we're talking about in terms of, you know, trending more towards the effective allyship side of things rather than ah resorting to saviorism. So hopefully that will help with, you know, everyday actions or being open to feedback.
00:43:14
Speaker
you know, lifting up trans voices and things like that. So yeah, really helpful resource. It's three pages, so nice and crisp for you all to continue your learning endeavors.
00:43:26
Speaker
Thank you so much, Kai. This has been super interesting. Yeah, absolutely. I've also enjoyed thinking it through and, you know, getting teasing out some of those nuances that often can be a bit perplexing, but hopefully we've demystified some of it and always curious to hear more, right? Obviously the two of us know some, but not everything and curious to hear from people who are listening to the podcast, if there's any other things that you all can think of that are important to tease out the difference between allyship and saviorism.
00:43:58
Speaker
If you have any thoughts, you can email us at podcast at transfocus.ca. um So yeah, looking forward to hearing from you and see you next week.