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00:00:01
The System’s Outdated... Now What?
12 Plays11 days ago
What do you do when your values tell you one thing, but the system won’t budge?
In this episode, I’m joined by Hélène Frohard-Dourlent, a community organizer with years of experience inside big institutions, navigating the tricky gap between good intentions and outdated infrastructure.
We talk about what it’s like when the structures around us - forms, policies, washrooms - don’t reflect the values we hold, and how staff can still offer care and respect in the meantime.
Hélène shares insight into how long change really takes, what’s possible in the moment, and how to navigate those awkward in-between spaces where intention and reality don’t quite line up.
It’s a conversation for anyone who’s ever felt stuck between wanting to help and being told to wait, and a reminder that even small actions can make a difference while we work toward bigger shifts.
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Transcript
Podcast Introduction & Host Background
00:00:04
Speaker
Hello folks, this is Gender in Focus, a podcast exploring how to create a more inclusive world for trans and non-binary people. I'm your host Kai Scott and I use the pronouns he and him.
00:00:15
Speaker
I'm the president of Trans Focus Consulting.
Organizational Learning & System Navigation
00:00:19
Speaker
I mean I would love to get to the point where I could just navigate all systems and never come across a hitch but There is something I think really valuable and in watching an organization or a staff within an organization to go through that learning and make change.
00:00:35
Speaker
When you're accessing either a workplace as ah as an employee or at you're accessing an organization, you're often looking for cues that you're going to be included or not included. And so there are multiple cues ah that you can that you can sort of look for.
00:00:50
Speaker
But often those cues are found in the communications about those services or programs right or communications about the organization.
Episode Topic & Guest Introduction
00:01:02
Speaker
As frontline staff, do you ever feel stuck between wanting to do the right thing and being held back by outdated systems? You're not alone. In this episode of Gender in Focus, I'm joined by a special guest, Hélène Frohard-Dourlent a community organizer who has researched and worked in different large institutions over the years.
Challenges in Infrastructure for Inclusivity
00:01:21
Speaker
And we're going to dive into the frustrating but navigable gap between intention and infrastructure. Whether it's a clunky data field or gendered washrooms or programs that don't quite fit everyone, we unpack how staff can offer real care to trans and non-binary people even when structures fall short.
00:01:41
Speaker
Tune in as we explore our practical and respectful ways to bridge the gap and advocate for the changes that are necessary and starting right where you are before any long-term changes are made. So I'm really excited to be joined by Hélène here today, and I'll just get you to introduce yourself a little bit more to the audience.
00:02:00
Speaker
So yeah, feel free to share more about yourself, Hélène. Sure. Hi, Kai. It's nice to see you for this opportunity. and So my like you said, my name is Hélène Frohard-Dourlent I use primarily the pronouns they, them, but I'm okay with some feminine she, her as well.
00:02:15
Speaker
I grew up in France where the language in particular is a ah real barrier to kind of even thinking non-binary existences. So that's always something that's kind of alive in my mind, and especially as I think about organizations and kind of making that jump from awareness to action, right? Really important.
00:02:34
Speaker
I've worked in on the topic of gender and sexuality for a really long time. i started out kind of more on the educational side of things, you know, doing workshops at the time, a lot of anti-homophobia, trans 101, that sort of stuff.
00:02:49
Speaker
And then um sort of later on kind of pivoted to being more interested in how organizations really create the conditions for inclusion or sometimes actually limit the possibilities of inclusion.
00:03:03
Speaker
And exactly the topic that you were kind of starting to touch on is like what happens to the people who are working within these systems that often have a lot of good intentions and really want to be doing the right thing, but find themselves kind of limited by the organization within which they work. So that's really that that kind of piece around organizational change is really where I'm interested in right now.
00:03:26
Speaker
And it's so pivotal that you've got that kind of front row seat to how organizations evolve and how staff are brought up to speed or even the lack of support of staff. And that's where I feel like a big heart for people who are on the front lines trying to figure things out, scrambling and ah not being supported by organizations, usually unintentionally. It's not like organizations are wanting to throw staff under the bus, but it just kind of works out in unfortunate ways and also has impact on trans and non-binary folks. So, and of course we've also done quite a bit of work together as well as part of TransFocus and always very excited when you're involved because you provide such a really important fine tuning of things and ah try to create those creative solutions that help unlock things in organizations. Always appreciate your work and in your involvement.
00:04:16
Speaker
I'm curious, kind of the first question that I have is just to set the stage for folks. If somebody is not a frontline staff, they may not be fully aware, or even if they are frontline staff who perhaps haven't encountered trans and non-binary folks or that they've known of, what are some of those structural limitations that we were, or both of us were alluding to that trans and non-binary folks encounter within organizations and and why do they matter?
00:04:41
Speaker
Yeah, thanks for that question. I think it's really important to kind of set the stage so we're clear about what we're talking about.
Structural Limitations for Trans & Non-Binary People
00:04:47
Speaker
um And I kind of see sort of three major buckets when I think about structural limitations for trans and non-binary folks.
00:04:54
Speaker
The first one which tends to be, I also trained as a researcher, so I really like this one, um but I get that it's a bit of a nerdy space. It's the space of data collection, management and records for people.
00:05:07
Speaker
And so that's everything from um gender markers, right? So often when you're working within an organization or even sometimes when you're signing up for programs, you're asked, you know, what gender you are, essentially.
00:05:19
Speaker
ah so that information is is recorded by the organization that you're either working with or sort of accessing. So that's one piece. And then the other pieces around records is things like names um or pronouns, right?
00:05:33
Speaker
So all the kind of personal information that given the kind of society that we live in often comes with sort of a set of assumptions around gender, basically, and can really have an impact then on your experience navigating either that workplace or that service when you're accessing it.
00:05:49
Speaker
So that's the kind of big bucket, right, is sort of that gender ah data, gender records. The second set of sort of structural limitations is often around facilities. So um the the sort of most universal one, I would say, is the washroom because that's found in every building, but that would also include change rooms, right, in some and some setups.
00:06:08
Speaker
And that's um often the the sort of impact is that often we, I mean, historically, we've always sort of thought facilities through that lens of binary gender. And so there's a lot of questions that come up for both trans and non-binary people, slightly different sets of questions, but around how to access those facilities safely and sometimes even What facilities to access, if any, because that often the absence of of appropriate facilities is the the number one concern.
00:06:35
Speaker
So that's kind of the second bucket. And then the third bucket is what we call kind of both access to services and communications about those services, right?
Inclusivity Signals in Services & Communications
00:06:45
Speaker
Right. So when you're accessing either workplace as an employee or you're accessing an organization, you're often looking for cues that you're going to be included or not included. And so there are multiple cues that you can sort of look for.
00:07:00
Speaker
But often those cues are found in the communications about those services or programs, right? Or communications about the organization. Is the organization framing itself as, you know, a women's organization or a men's organization, or are there um ways in which the services talk about moms and dads, right? Instead of talking about parents, like those kinds of pieces that sometimes what can be tricky in navigating that is that it's hard to know, is the service not inclusive? Like, am I not going to find what I'm looking for in that service because the service itself has been designed in that way?
00:07:32
Speaker
Or is it just that the organization is communicating about that service? Mm-hmm. in a way that isn't and doesn't make it clear that it is for everyone. right So I think of a lot of... I'm a parent now, so and I think that's a really sort of telling space because often services are framed as being for moms.
00:07:49
Speaker
And actually, when you talk to the organizers, The space is open for any parent, but they're not advertising it that way. And so as a non-binary parent sort of trying to access that, I don't know. Like, am I going to walk into the space and be totally welcome? I just had to get over the fact that the sign said, you know, mom and tot or whatever.
00:08:07
Speaker
Or am I going to walk into that space and suddenly everyone's going to be what is this person doing here? Right. So um that's kind of the third bucket that I see is like services and then access to the services through through communications.
00:08:20
Speaker
Wow.
Implementing Changes & Managing Expectations
00:08:21
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a thorough ah picture of some of the common sticking points for trans and non-binary folks and how, you know,
00:08:31
Speaker
especially staff involved are then at the the forefront of that, whether miscommunication, like you mentioned, ah or an oversight, or something that the organization is working on, but maybe hasn't fixed just yet, right?
00:08:47
Speaker
And also, curious to hear from your experience, especially over the years that you've worked on systems and facilities, you know, can you give us any insight into the length of time it takes to update systems and spaces?
00:09:00
Speaker
And think sometimes people are a little bit surprised by by the answer. So I'm curious just what you've seen over the over the years that you've worked on these issues. Yeah, it's it's a good question because it's a hard one to answer, first of all, because it depends so much on the organization.
00:09:16
Speaker
But I feel like I've learned that one of the key pieces when you're talking about organizational change is managing people's expectations. And so I feel like the answer is always going to be longer than you think um because it there's always going to be more um sort of delays or more sort of holdups than you would have ever thought imaginable. At least that's ah unfortunately generally been my experience.
00:09:38
Speaker
um That said, I will say, so I've worked in a lot of large organizations and in those organizations in particular, I think it's safe to say that the kind of structural changes that we're talking about can take years, ah whether it's something about information systems or facilities, which obviously might involves a lot of resources, obviously, to sort of change the systems or change those facilities.
00:10:02
Speaker
That, yeah, that can take a really, really long time. I think the size of the organization matters a lot because the more the larger the organization, the more complex the change Even something that seems really simple where you're like, I'm just looking at an interface, I'm just trying to add an option.
00:10:18
Speaker
That seems really straightforward from the sort user end. From the back end, often there's a lot of complexity that people don't see. so unfortunately, even things that can seem straightforward can take a really, really long time, especially and in large organizations.
00:10:32
Speaker
I will say that and large organizations for some things and in smaller organizations, there are often opportunities to make change quickly in some spaces.
00:10:44
Speaker
And I think smaller organizations that really have an opportunity um where they're not relying on third party systems, for example, or where, you know, sometimes um I miss a pen and paper because it's actually probably easier to make some changes when you just had to print a new form and yeah you know put out a new form to your to your clients, that sort of thing.
00:11:03
Speaker
But I think there are opportunities, especially in smaller organizations where it is still this kind of very human to human process. And so it's a lot easier once you get um ah sort of buy in from your leadership, which like that could be another challenge. I'm sure we'll talk about that.
00:11:20
Speaker
But if you have buy in from everyone in the organization. then change can happen. I would still say often it can take months, but it can happen relatively quickly. I think in a large organization, what's challenging is even once you get sort of buy-in from everybody, you have some real structural limitations in terms of how fast things can move.
00:11:39
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for describing that because I can imagine And we do hear from community members or even allies who on the outside, it looks like ah stalling mechanism almost.
00:11:52
Speaker
Or it can feel that way, especially if the need is very dire. And i understand that kind of response. And then just being on the back end involved and you know with organizations trying to unpack these things.
00:12:06
Speaker
you know, their downstream effects to changes and mapping those all out to make sure that, you know, nothing kind of goes awry or off the rails based on one change in the system. And it refers to different places, especially if you're like a central information system that then refers to a bunch of applications, right?
00:12:25
Speaker
um There is the the buy-in piece as well to socialize this among leadership. And if there's different departments or faculty or, you know, different even unions that can add just so much more time to bring them all along.
00:12:43
Speaker
And i I will say that that I opened by saying, you know, I came from sort of the space of edi education. But organizational change and education really come sort of together. To your point, if there isn't bias and across the organization, you can make all the changes to a system that you might want.
00:13:01
Speaker
People are not going to be able to actually take that up and and actually communicate that change or enact that change in a way that feels meaningful and transformative to people. um to whether it's you know users, clients, patients, or potentially even employees.
00:13:17
Speaker
So I appreciate that you kind of flagged that that that education piece has to come with, right? Absolutely. That, you know, it's not just about the structural change, but there's actually a cultural component to it, almost, in a sense, right?
00:13:32
Speaker
Because it is sometimes a different way of approaching or thinking, even if it's adding to, know, and we we'll get into this, but say a first name field to have people know, okay, there's now a chosen first name and a legal first name.
00:13:47
Speaker
And we want staff to refer to the chosen first name when interacting. It's a different approach mentally because we are so used to looking at legal name as the, you know, which written in the sky for all time name, right?
00:14:03
Speaker
Absolutely. I want to validate also what you just said from sort of a ah client perspective, right? I think one of the things that is most frustrating in navigating institutions that are not ready for trans and non-binary people is that you never quite know. it's It can be really hard to know when someone is telling you,
00:14:21
Speaker
That option is not available. Is it a stalling tactic? Is it that it's taking a really long time in the back end? is Does someone even care? And so i think I think we'll get into that, but I think that's really where the and the initial interaction with a staff member can make a huge difference because as a Client, you're right to be frustrated and even beyond frustrated, right? Sometimes angry that you're trying to access a service and they're not ready for you.
00:14:48
Speaker
um And yeah, and sometimes organizations do stall, you know, sometimes organizations do take way more time than they probably need to trying to make a decision or decide on a path of action.
00:15:00
Speaker
And so trying to sort that out um either as a client or sometimes as an employee trying to make change happen can be
Frontline Staff's Role in Sensitivity & Validation
00:15:06
Speaker
really frustrating. so I'm glad you you acknowledged that. Yeah, absolutely. There's so many variables involved and, you know,
00:15:15
Speaker
Hesitation is a big thing among organizations where it feels like they're taking a big step. Oftentimes for some it's, oh, it's a small population, and you know especially if their costs attributed it with it. It's like, why are we doing this? And the rationale has to be really carefully explained ah through the organization that you know one takes time, but it can take too much time too, right? yeah Where it's just like, at some point you just need to jump.
00:15:45
Speaker
and trust that you'll, you'll, you have wings, right. To fly. ah so it's I'm curious, you, you did mention, you know, how frontline staff respond to trans and non-binary folks, you know, whether clients or, or coworkers, you know, if there's something missing in a structure and a facility, ah that being an important moment.
00:16:06
Speaker
And oftentimes I think that's lost on either organizations or even frontline staff, you know, what's at play and the importance of their response, even if there's limitations.
00:16:18
Speaker
And so I just wonder if you could describe how frontline staff can respond. What are some of the options available to them in these moments? I appreciate it's not the most comfortable moment, right?
00:16:30
Speaker
um But there are options available to folks. Yeah, absolutely. And so for me, one of the the key pieces is sort of in that initial interaction when someone is mentioning, you know, either they're asking questions about something and and it's missing or they've noticed that that something is absent.
00:16:47
Speaker
I think what's key in that moment is to welcome that feedback. And I think that's hard, especially if that feedback is provided in a way that's not always, you know, the most kind or the the sort of, you yeah, the most gentle because the person might be quite frustrated, might be quite elevated.
00:17:05
Speaker
Almost always that moment isn't actually about you as a frontline worker. And that's not to say that you don't deserve to be treated with with respect. Obviously, that's a that's key in an interaction as well.
00:17:15
Speaker
And so I think it's absolutely fine, obviously, to ask that, you know, the person talk to you respectfully. But to really make an effort in that moment to kind of see past however the person is providing you that feedback, to hearing what that person is trying to say.
00:17:31
Speaker
And also, if you can, to sort of have compassion for the fact that if the person is coming to you in a really elevated manner, um with some anger, some frustration, it is most likely because this is not the first time that day, that week, that year,
00:17:47
Speaker
um that this person has encountered either exactly the same problem or a very similar kind of problem. And so for you, this is new information. This is a new interaction for that person.
00:17:59
Speaker
this might be the same feedback that they've had to give to 10 different organizations in the past month. And so there's really um there where i've seen sort of interaction sort of fail or or, you know, actually come to a place of understanding is really in in that ability of the frontline person to understand this is important feedback and there's a reason why the person is elevated.
00:18:22
Speaker
So really validating that frustration, that anger, recognizing that there is a limitation that they've identified is like, I think the the number one thing that you can do. And then,
00:18:34
Speaker
um And then I think what's what's tricky is it depends a little bit if the interaction, if this limitation is new to you or if this limitation is something that you're aware of. If you're aware of that limitation, hopefully you've had chance with coworkers, with your leadership to talk about what are some options that are available instead of the person's preferred option.
00:18:55
Speaker
um They might not be great and you can acknowledge the limitations of those other options, but if you at least can provide some options, you're um providing some ability for the person to make a choice that feels um okay to them, right? It might not be, again, the best choice.
Empowering Clients & Providing Options
00:19:12
Speaker
It might not be what they wanted and um they might still choose to walk away because it's not good enough, but at least you're kind of giving them a bit of power back by saying, here are some some options are available to you.
00:19:25
Speaker
if If this is the first time you've heard of this limitation, that's I think that's even trickier. And I think um what I would say is often the best thing is to um take the concern seriously and say, I'm going to bring it up, basically.
00:19:38
Speaker
Right. in In the moment, I would maybe, I want to be really careful around that because i I'm very aware of the fact that we can ask trans people, trans and non-binary people to do quite a bit of extra labor. So I don't want to suggest that that's a go-to.
00:19:53
Speaker
I think there are situations where it might be appropriate to say what might be something that would feel like a ah satisfying sort of option to you right now and brainstorm, so to speak, with the person.
00:20:05
Speaker
to think about, okay, here's, you know, I know the building and you know what you need. Let's think together if there's an option here. um But like I said, I would be mindful of, first of all, where the person is at. Do they seem like they're in a place where they're wanting, but you know, to make a contribution or are they just looking for a solution?
00:20:23
Speaker
And maybe, you know, maybe if you have previous relationship with this person or you, you know, you have to read the room a little bit. But I do think at at times that you know Trans people also know best what's best for them.
00:20:36
Speaker
So there can be an opportunity to kind of leverage that knowledge but thoughtfully and being mindful that um you know no one is here for to give free labor. Indeed. That's such a good point.
00:20:49
Speaker
um Because ah well-meaning folks are wanting to engage as you know appreciating that trans folks, trans and non-binary folks know what they need. ah But then also putting that undue burden on them just adds, you know, just an extra thing for for trans and non-binary folks to have to manage or or work on.
00:21:10
Speaker
ah But then some people are are wanting to share that. And, you know, that feels part of empowerment. Right. So, yeah, that feedback in terms of reading the room. And, you know, in terms of whether somebody is responsive to questions or shut down, right? Those kinds of clues can give us insight to where folks are at and then respond accordingly.
00:21:30
Speaker
And I think the trauma-informed approach is a really important one because these can be really traumatic things for folks to have to navigate and usually all alone,
Trauma-Informed Approaches
00:21:42
Speaker
right?
00:21:42
Speaker
And that can feel very disempowering to the point where People can be, like you described, in an elevated state. um So it does, as with other issues that folks are encountering, requires that kind of sensitive, um you know expansive, and reassuring approach.
00:22:03
Speaker
Taking somebody seriously is so important. It seems simple enough, but it actually is game changer. Because from our research, we see time and time again, trans and non-binary folks, their issues or where our issues are dismissed.
00:22:18
Speaker
Just not given any time or space, like where people, you know, hold up their hands and they're like, it's a systems limitation. What do you expect from me? You know, vibes. Yeah, I think the the very, even having that limitation of knowledge, right, the person to be like, i'm I'm so sorry that our system isn't set up for this, can be such a different interaction, right, than if the person is like, this is not my problem, I don't make the system.
00:22:44
Speaker
um and And I just want to say, because I i did go to that place of thinking about an interaction with someone who is experiencing frustration, because I think that's often what people are afraid of, no is meeting sort of someone who is in that state. But I also want to say most of the time when trans people are giving feedback, they're actually doing it quite calmly.
00:23:04
Speaker
And they're especially looking for that validation, that acknowledgement, and the sense of what are you going to do about it? And I think that's the other piece, right? and the It's welcoming the feelings, recognizing the limitations.
00:23:18
Speaker
But then I think most of the time, what trans people are looking for, trans and non-binary people are looking for is that ah sense of, okay, so what are you gonna do to make sure that I'm welcome next time, right?
00:23:31
Speaker
It's the same, it reminds me of a conversation about pronouns, right? I don't mind if people mess up my pronouns, like once in a while, the first couple of times I get that it's a ah ah learning moment.
00:23:43
Speaker
What's gonna impact me is if i if that person keeps making that mistake. And conversely, what is gonna make a really important impact on me is if I see that this person is making an effort moving forward.
00:23:54
Speaker
And so I think similarly with organizations, keeping in mind that, the again, the timeframe for change can be quite a bit lengthier, um I would much rather see an organization receive feedback and then do something with that feedback than sometimes even an organization that maybe, you know,
00:24:13
Speaker
accidentally kind of build the right infrastructure, but there's no sort of intentionality behind it. Like in some ways, I feel like seeing an organization take the time to reflect and make changes can be almost even more powerful than, you know, when you, when you just don't even have any questions. I mean, I would love to get to the point where I could just navigate all systems and never come across a hitch, but yeah there is something I think really valuable in watching an organization or a staff within an organization.
00:24:42
Speaker
do go through that learning and and make change. Yeah. And acknowledge that they don't have all the answers, but they're still going to try. Right. Because I think organizations feel it's a bit of an unknown hesitation.
00:24:56
Speaker
um you know, don't feel competent fully. um But once you step up and into that journey, a they people make a note of that, like, and it spreads too. Right. mean, the,
00:25:08
Speaker
Most or many trans and non-binary folks are connected in community and, you know, say, hey, this organization is figuring it out and, you know, involving those who are willing and able to or want to and are taking the concerted effort ah to make make a change.
00:25:27
Speaker
I'm curious ah what some of the options available to to organizations, what those are, especially some of the from your own experience or that you've heard of from other organizations that have really made a huge difference in and how trans and non-binary folks experience their organizations.
00:25:47
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I've i i worked... in and with a lot of different organizations. And so I'm really hesitant to kind of go to to some sort of universal solutions because i don't think they quite exist.
00:26:00
Speaker
I think that's where really the power of staff member comes in and the power of leadership comes in to brainstorm solutions and think about what does our building look like? What do our materials look like?
00:26:12
Speaker
What do our forms or what do our systems look like? And think about what's possible because I've seen everything from, you know, like, ah Like sometimes we i'm trying to think of it of specifics, but in an information system, for example, sometimes you have a field and it's unused.
00:26:30
Speaker
So, you know, that's one relatively easy, straightforward solution. Sometimes you have a totally different field. I don't know what it might be called. ah I think I worked once in a place where they had a field called notes, right? Where you could put someone's pronouns or of over name, right? and so But then you had to teach everyone, and remember, look at the notes field, because that's not an obvious thing when you're pulling up someone's profile.
00:26:54
Speaker
um you could have, you know, in some cases, depending on what the situation is, you could have sticky notes, you could have different signs that are printed that at least acknowledge some of the limitations, right? I think of Facilities, for example, um we've seen events, right, that reorganize for one night by re-signing temporarily all of their washrooms to be all gender washrooms.
00:27:15
Speaker
um And that's done pretty easily with a printer, right? And while you're working for potentially actually reorganizing your facilities. So, I think the the power here is of the collective brainstorm um and just kind of pulling everyone in and being like, okay, what are some options that are available to us and leave room to be creative, to try some things and maybe go back and say, you know what, we tried that, but actually that was really clunky.
00:27:42
Speaker
um Let's try something else. ah And yeah, And then the, ah the, once you figure it out sort of what is your temporary pathway or what are some options, really making sure going back to the education piece that you
Temporary vs. Long-Term Solutions
00:27:55
Speaker
and I were talking about, really making sure that everyone in the organization is on board as well, because what's tricky about temporary solution is, or the kind of like um makeshift solutions, right.
00:28:07
Speaker
Is that, That's the whole point is they're not obvious. They're not built into your systems. And so it's very easy for one staff member who who feels really strongly about this to be really aware of what the options are.
00:28:19
Speaker
And then the next person who's on shift to be totally unaware. And so then as ah as a non-brain person, you're like, who am I going to encounter today? right Are they going to be aware Am I going to have to advocate because I know this thing exists because I've accessed it before, but now this person doesn't know. So now I'm having to do all the self-advocacy, right? ah So I think the communicating within the organization is almost as important as coming up with a temporary solution in and of itself.
00:28:48
Speaker
So true that if you don't kind of make a consistent experience through standardized practices that, you know, as described in education sessions or, you know, even,
00:28:59
Speaker
you know, a a document of procedures that kind of highlights what is expected of ah staff, then it can fall flat. And that inconsistency of experience is also harmful yeah because people just having to approach it with like, oh, I don't know how it's going happen and unfold. And even that kind of bracing for impact is a lot of work that ends up exhausting or frustrating folks. And so,
00:29:29
Speaker
to to work on that standardization, even though it's an interim thing, is still really important. And certainly within a small organization, I think that's relatively easier.
00:29:41
Speaker
and then when it comes to a large organizations, even say call centers, that is really important, or even other types of frontline workers that are interacting directly in person with folks like yeah, that is, you know, quite fundamental to that yeah success.
00:30:00
Speaker
I think, yeah, think about onboarding procedures, right, especially if you have a lot of staff turnover or building it into procedure documents, I think is a is a good way in a larger organization to kind of enter ensure everyone's on board. You're always going to have, obviously, it's harder to create consistency the the larger your staff team is.
00:30:18
Speaker
But I want to go back quickly to what you said, because I think I maybe didn't spend enough time at the beginning when I was talking about what the limitations are, talking about the impact, really, because i would I would love to invite people to think about what it's like to try and access, whether it's a service or even your local community center or, you know, or a bank or whatever it might be, and to always be kind of bracing yourself for Is someone going to make a comment? Is someone going to misgender me? Am going to have to explain my name again? am I going to have to do this or that?
00:30:52
Speaker
Most of us you know want to go through life being kind of like ah unnoticed in these kinds of circumstances. Very few of us have so much time in their lives that they want to be spending an extra 15 minutes trying to argue to access a bathroom in the back that we know exists, but no you know the particular staff member thinks it's reserved for this group or that group.
00:31:15
Speaker
um Yeah. People don't have that kind of time. And, energy and and often it can be quite harmful again, to kind of go through that because it's often not a one-off experience. It's often something that you're doing multiple times, certainly in a week, right? If not in ah in a day.
00:31:32
Speaker
And so um I think that's one of the hardest things when you're outside of of a group um to really get a sense for how exhausting that can be and how much that like how much that can lead people to choosing to disengage.
00:31:47
Speaker
rather than continue engaging and spending all that energy to access something. Oh yeah, absolutely. um You know, social isolation runs pretty high in trans and non-binary circles. And so it's an understandable response to this repetitive exclusion or having to point, even pointing out, but sometimes even having to fight for, because a staff member may not understand, or in some cases may be resistant ah to trans and non-binary folks. And it's just, wow, I can't be bothered, you know?
00:32:22
Speaker
And that's a really sad state of affairs, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is why even encountering someone who is willing to listen and takes their problem seriously can make such a difference because already in terms of like, you know, you're talking about trauma-informed approach, like the level of stress that that generates is so different from, you know, you bring something up to someone and they're acting defensive.
00:32:46
Speaker
like That's both of your your sort of stress response being being engaged. right That's almost never going to lead to a good outcome. Whereas if you give feedback and the person is able to receive it calmly and think through solutions and and sort of acknowledge what's happening to you,
00:33:04
Speaker
that's a very different experience. Not to say that that's the experience that you want to have either. Like I said, i wish we could just go through life without having to have these conversations, but it's ah it's a much better conversation, certainly.
00:33:17
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And that also being willing to brainstorm, even if you don't know what Could be all the options. You know, i mean, we're describing some of them here, but obviously it's not exhaustive.
00:33:31
Speaker
And so just even willing to to explore ah without having all the answers per se. And that's not even what's expected of most trans and non-binary folks. It's just the willingness.
00:33:42
Speaker
mean, it really does boil down to that willingness to engage, willingness to validate. That goes so far just because of the the opposite experience is usually what happens to most folks. So, yeah, it's really important. want to share a quick anecdote here. i'm I'm reminded of it in terms of sort of what you can do as ah as an individual staff person.
00:34:03
Speaker
um So in my dissertation research, I've talked to a lot of school staff. about how they worked with trans and non-binary students. And I still remember the staff member. She was a member of the administrative team.
00:34:15
Speaker
So not someone that you would necessarily think as having sort of a key role in these kinds of, you know, creating welcoming, inclusive school cultures. But that's precisely, I think, actually where we need to rethink who can make a difference. I think everyone at every...
00:34:29
Speaker
step, but every step of the way where can make a difference. And the staff member, the the issue I believe was it around the student's name, maybe their gender marker. The point is, is the, the, the gender that they, that they were, i was not reflected in the, in the system, the school system, information system.
00:34:49
Speaker
And the problem is when the school had to send information back to the ministry, there was a moment where basically the school file was being, um, compared with the ministry file, there was differences in in terms of the gender marker, for example, that would create an error, right? And then the file couldn't go through.
00:35:09
Speaker
And so this administrator for, think years, because this um this young person came out quite early, every time that she had to send that file to the Ministry of Education, We'd go in, manually make the change back to where the ministry record was, send the file, and then immediately upon getting confirmation that the ministry had gotten the file, reverted back to make sure that then the kid wasn't being misgendered or that class lists weren't being printed with the wrong gender.
00:35:35
Speaker
And I remember talking to this person and she was so committed to the fact that she had this like really key role to play for this young person in their life. And that was a really beautiful moment.
00:35:46
Speaker
ah She wasn't going to change the mastery of education and whether they were able to accept and a non-binary gender marker or change the the gender of this young person in their file, but she was able to come up with a solution because she knew the system. She was the one doing this interaction all the time, right?
00:36:03
Speaker
I couldn't have told her to do that. I and probably not even the principal or vice principal knew enough about that process to be able to suggest, Hey, could you possibly do this thing? Right. It was, she was able to do that because she had the the knowledge.
00:36:17
Speaker
And I thought that was such an, um, an impressive act of allyship. And I'm not suggesting that's the best solution because that was a lot of extra work for one person, but it certainly worked and it kept the the young person safe. And I kept, I think it, it,
00:36:31
Speaker
made it really clear to this young person and their parents that the school cared, right? Cause they were willing to go to that those extra lengths. So anyway, I just, I was just thinking about that anecdote and I, I have always thought it was such a cool example of just how much um anyone can, can do basically.
00:36:51
Speaker
Yeah. And it seems like a simple thing to many on the outside, like a manual override, but that that spared that student and their family a whole bunch of pain, you know, I mean, seeing past names or past ah gender markers, you know, just that there's a lot of exposure to that and being spared that.
00:37:13
Speaker
by a simple act that that person had to remember repeatedly, like that this is a thing, you know, like it's not just one time deal. Right. So that, that manual override um being just factored into that person's know-how. And you're right, that that was something, a solution that they had or to that staff member that had access to that, given she was so closely involved in that.
00:37:35
Speaker
Huh. Really good. stuff Thank you for sharing that. Cause I had to kind of illustrate so many different facets of this and how it really is important and also good to come up with a long-term solution as well. So just to spare that manual override.
00:37:50
Speaker
um for sure. Good that ah she found that. Yeah. Yeah. So just wanted to ah dive into a few kind of more specific things just to illustrate some of the additional information.
00:38:03
Speaker
considerations, particularly, i know we've referenced it a few times here, it's just, you know, the difference between legal first name and chosen first name, and how in the temporary or interim fashion,
00:38:17
Speaker
organizations can handle that because of course it is so personal so important and as I mentioned before many organizations are very fixated on legal first name almost to the exclusion of anything else and so um what are some things that organ or that you've seen or been a part of um implementing that could help yeah I mean so I think the first thing to kind of undo around around first names, some of this is applicable to last names as well, but primarily your first names, is actually sort of sit down and think about what are the processes in your organization that actually legally require you to use a legal name for someone.
Handling Legal & Chosen Names
00:38:57
Speaker
And there are often, like I wish I could say, you know, who cares about legal names? But unfortunately, often there are pieces like, taxes, like payroll, so often human resource processes ah that do require a legal name. Often because much like in the example from the Ministry of Education that I just shared, there is an interaction with an external system and that external system, for whatever reason, often identity verification right requires the the documentation to sort of match what you have on your government ID. Mm-hmm.
00:39:29
Speaker
And so I would say my first suggestion would be to do like a very sort of honest and ah scan of what are the processes that require legal name and and really ask yourself, do I think I need it or do I actually need it And what I mean by that is that outside of HR processes, um often managers, for example, assume that they need the legal name of their employees.
00:39:54
Speaker
I'm not convinced of that that's the case. um As a manager myself, I feel like I can't think of a single instance where I would have to know someone's you know government ID, legal name. I'm probably given that information far more often than I want it, frankly.
00:40:09
Speaker
um But I don't actually think that I need it in order to perform my job correctly. Right. and And so, yeah, so I would say even just sort of shifting that mindset by being like, okay, why am i why are we using legal name in this situation and having to justify the use of a legal name instead of historically, I think what's always happened is what you're describing.
00:40:32
Speaker
The legal name is the default. It's everywhere. And then it's kind of like the employee has to argue to use the chosen name in some circumstances. And they have to kind of justify why it's not risky or it's not a problem to use the chosen name in X, Y or circumstance.
00:40:47
Speaker
And so I'd love to see organizations sort of flip that and be like, let's just assume we can use a chosen name. And then we're where we're required to use a legal name, obviously we're going to do that.
00:40:58
Speaker
And we can do that in ways that are mindful of the fact that this is a piece of information that's actually quite private for people. And so that might mean them in larger organizations, that might mean changing permissions based on roles, right? And only giving access to information to central human resource agencies.
00:41:18
Speaker
roles that first of all interact directly with the person very little so them having access to that private information is less likely to lead to things like misgendering or misnaming right but also they actually genuinely need it for their to to actually perform their roles properly um and really sort of ah approach them sort of anything that has to do with day-to-day communications, interactions, as an opportunity to reinforce the person's actual name. We do it naturally all the time, right, with sort of nicknames, like even Elizabeth being shortened to Liz, right?
00:41:54
Speaker
You don't really have to think about that. Like you will often refer to this person as Liz kind of no matter what's happening, um even probably in communication to the HR person who knows that this person is called Elizabeth because they have the file.
00:42:06
Speaker
So I think it's just kind of taking that same approach with trans folks and saying, you know, and but unless someone is telling me i I have to, there's no reason for, for this, um,
00:42:18
Speaker
this legal name to show to show up anywhere. It can be really tricky. And I think organizations have to pay attention to that, especially when they're larger, especially when they're um working with sort of multiple layers of information systems, is that there is historically a tendency for the legal name to be prioritized essentially. So whenever yeah the central system has to communicate to other systems,
00:42:41
Speaker
almost systematically. It's that sort of legal name information that's transferred. And so I think you were alluding to that earlier when you're shifting either your approach or sort of ah starting to use a chosen name field, there's often a lot of implications there and trying to think about, okay, how do I make sure that the right information is then being, um, transferred to all the sort of downstream systems to make sure that that experience from that person is consistent. Um,
00:43:08
Speaker
Because again, to kind of reinforce the point you made earlier, it's um i wouldn't say that worse to be sort of in that inconsistent space because I think is better to see that an organization is trying But it's incredibly frustrating when you think a problem has been fixed, it's been fixed in this one system, and then you have to log into this other system, and then suddenly here goes your legal name again.
00:43:33
Speaker
Right? To feel like, okay, back to square one, I have to re-email my HR manager, or my supervisor, I have to be like, this is a problem. like Right? it it can be That can be really discouraging as a cycle. Right?
00:43:46
Speaker
And so as an organization, if you're in a position where you're able to kind of make that systemic change, to really be thoughtful about sort of the full life um or the full employee experience, right, is is really key.
00:44:03
Speaker
Yeah, such as such good points about first names and some of the the nuances and challenges and the kind of flipping of the usual way of approaching things with prioritizing chosen first name.
00:44:20
Speaker
obviously there are still some places where legal is needed, but those are smaller, especially when we're talking about interactions. Actually, there I don't see, like you were mentioning, as a manager to your staff, you don't really need that legal first name. And in fact, it can make things more confusing.
00:44:38
Speaker
um yeah Staff are like, just tell me what name to use. Even if you're in a role, like I said, you're that HR manager. I've seen this on one of the ah universities that I worked in, it was the folks receiving mail in one of the student residences.
00:44:54
Speaker
like they had to make sure that the the name matched. And so sometimes it meant to asking for the the legal name. um But you can do that in a way that still uses the person's chosen name. Do you know what i mean? You can ask to see a piece of ID or you can ask the person to step aside and be like, I'm going to ask you a bit of an awkward question.
00:45:13
Speaker
Like you can do that in a way that minimizes the impact of you having to use that name. yeah. Absolutely. And that's a ah really good point that I think we just want to ah spend another beat on because oftentimes, you know, people think that names, first names are, especially legal names are public, you know?
00:45:35
Speaker
and that it's okay to, you know, blurt them in a loud public space or, um a so this, this pulling somebody aside, I think is a really important step in that, because if you're going to talk about a legal name that is different from a chosen name, the difference between them can be gendered and outing in some way. Yeah.
00:45:56
Speaker
Yeah. It would just, if you could speak to that a little bit more, you know, why it's important to, you know, step aside and, And even, you know, if there's not a field for a chosen first name in the system, what are some things that staff can do?
00:46:11
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, if there, and so the importance of stepping aside first, I think is really about showing that care that we were talking about earlier, right? It's kind of communicating, kind of going that extra step and communicating.
00:46:24
Speaker
i see that there might be an issue here and it might have an impact on you. And I want to be supportive rather than sort of blaze through sort of our interaction to get to my next um my next thing.
00:46:36
Speaker
So I think that can really help someone feel seen, feel cared for. And it might be sometimes that it's, you know, over the top that the person is like, oh yeah, I'm sorry, that's just like an old name that I that i don't use in anymore.
00:46:49
Speaker
But it's better to have that, like the the impact of that interaction is basically null right compared to what you might have helped someone avoid that if you don't do that with with someone for whom it it really, really matters.
00:47:03
Speaker
um In terms of what to do if you don't have the space and information system, It's really tricky. it Again, it depends on the size of the organization, I think.
00:47:14
Speaker
In a small organization, I think you can you could very easily kind of find ways to let everyone know, hey, this person goes by a different name, find a way to either record that information somewhere that's private but visible to all staff,
00:47:29
Speaker
or um make sure that you know there's enough awareness kind of amongst the whole team. um With a larger organization, the most successful thing that I've seen is what I mentioned earlier is the use of a different field.
00:47:42
Speaker
It's still very awkward because often remember one instance where you know the the staff member had to go to page two, basically. They had to look at like a different tab in order to find the name, which is obviously not what you're going to do instinctively.
00:47:54
Speaker
um But at least... The information was there. So given the size of the organization, they couldn't have expected everyone to kind of remember this. um Sometimes it's about um also sort of working on scripts around welcoming people.
00:48:12
Speaker
that sort of take out the the name from the initial interactions. Right. ah So I could see, I know um I've seen this done a lot of in email communications, finding the balance between sort of personalized messages that say, hello, I learned versus like um a message that just says, hi, or like to all student advisors or whatever it might be. Right. That,
00:48:33
Speaker
for sure it's less personalized, but I would much rather receive a message that's non-personalized than a message that's misgendering me or misnaming me, right? And so I think it's also kind of weighing um sort of, yeah, where your organization, sort of ah where the values are at or out is that you want to think about your communications.
00:48:52
Speaker
um And so similarly in interactions, I think encouraging people to be mindful of gendered language and not default to gendered language when they meet someone Or find ways to be polite and respectful that don't you know rely again on sort of these gendered words or tropes that we tend to use.
00:49:09
Speaker
ah And finding ways to treat names kind of thoughtfully, especially if you know that there is a limitation in your system. If you have a chosen name, then great. Rely on that field, right?
00:49:20
Speaker
um But if you know for a fact that that's kind of ah a limitation and it's good to do it kind of systematically rather than try and be like, oh, this person's coming up to me and they don't look like the gender that i think they are based on the name that I'm seeing.
00:49:34
Speaker
So for them, I'm going to try and do something ah bit different. That's almost always going to be awkward and um like feel a little clunky because you're not used to using that non-gendered language or you're not used to having to avoid someone's name. Right. So finding practices that you can kind of apply universally that are going to be inclusive. And my experience often works better. It ends up feeling more natural than of trying to um sort spot, like can change things. Right.
00:50:05
Speaker
boom And invariably you miss people who know look feminine or masculine or you know whatever the the the thing that somebody is using. And so the universal approach just captures everyone and know you can then go forward with whatever they share.
00:50:23
Speaker
and And for me, i we do encourage folks to ask a universal question. you know How should I refer to you? and yeah as a way to open it, assuming that there may be ways that people want to be addressed that aren't captured in the system, right?
00:50:40
Speaker
And that could be, I mean, obviously we're talking about trans and non-binary folks, but apply to folks who are not, right? And yeah maybe there's a nickname you miss if you're only focused on legal name and that wouldn't then tailor that um or personalize it, that interaction for them. yeah And it the ah Robert versus Bob situation. Right.
00:51:01
Speaker
Yeah. The other thing that will say, and know it's one of the more complex piece that I've worked with um ah within an organization on, is that there are times, and I would say not it's not that unusual,
00:51:17
Speaker
where people actually want to use different names in different spaces. And so that's really tricky, actually, if you have a central system, even if you think your central system is great because it prioritizes chosen names and it shows chosen names everywhere.
00:51:30
Speaker
There are circumstances where someone, either for safety reasons or for comfort reasons, wants to use a different name in certain spaces. And so what I appreciate about, you know, um asking the question when you're having an interaction with someone, it that gives That gives them back the choice, right, of saying, in this space today with you, I want to be known as x right, instead of sort of defaulting to something that looks like it might be the right thing, but actually still isn't quite meeting the person's need. Mm-hmm.
00:52:00
Speaker
Yeah, that's such a good point. There is variability there for for some folks, and that ah that is a respectful approach. Yeah. One last question, ah just wanting to go into the the role of kind of internal advocacy and what frontline staff can play in an organization.
Internal Advocacy for Inclusivity
00:52:24
Speaker
perhaps an organization is not aware or they're not committed yet. What are some ways that frontline staff can talk to leadership or other coworkers to to to bring this up to them and and to advance things within their organization?
00:52:42
Speaker
Yeah, um I think there's lots that people can do individually. i think that um talking about the problems that they've encountered it that they've seen people encounter.
00:52:53
Speaker
Sometimes you don't need to have someone come tell you that there's not a universal gender neutral washroom, right? Or all gender washroom. You you just know. So there are times where you can be an advocate even before there's an issue. And that's ideal, right? Because then someone hasn't had to kind of um suffer through the whatever limitation in order for that limitation to get highlighted.
00:53:15
Speaker
ah And so I think that role of sort of like bringing up the issue, sharing information, that alone can be so powerful because most of the time people don't realize the the impact that these limitations have, right?
00:53:27
Speaker
Either do they don't realize the intensity of the the impact or the frequency of the impact, right? They don't have that mindset of, oh, this person is not just encountering this with us or, um ah yeah, or like they don't realize it's something that comes up every single time someone registers, right? That kind of thing. Mm-hmm.
00:53:45
Speaker
I think it's really important to bring it up to leadership, right? So as much as possible, as much as you have the power, because most people who are in a position to notice or be told about these limitations are not the same people as the people who have a chance to change the actual system or the underlying sort of issue.
00:54:04
Speaker
So raising sort of that up the the hierarchy is huge. Sometimes that means going directly to your supervisor. Sometimes that might mean going through an employee resource group. Sometimes that might mean going through directly to your HR manager because you have a relationship with that person and it's an HR matter.
00:54:20
Speaker
Like it can take a lot of different forms that really depend on your location within the organization and your relationships, but you can certainly do that. um The other thing that I want to, and and I will say, so doing that, documenting those efforts, right?
00:54:36
Speaker
So when you're, you know, you get a new manager, you don't have to restart. You can just be like, Hey, I've been documenting these instances. Like, I just want you to be aware this is where we're at so far.
00:54:47
Speaker
And so feeling like you have to start at ground zero every single time. um And the other piece that I want to mention is I think education obviously is a big piece of it. You want people to become aware, to have ah to feel a sense of urgency essentially around these issues so that there is motivation to make change.
00:55:05
Speaker
And I want to emphasize that, it again, we were talking about that duo of education and structural change. It's really important for both of them to be moving because what I've seen in some organizations is that you know as soon as something is kind of mentioned or there's a sense that we want to work on trans inclusion,
00:55:23
Speaker
The go-to is edi education. Let's just educate our staff. And it can sometimes backfire because what you end up is like ah a staff complement that is very well aware of what the issues are, are seeing them sort of firsthand and feel totally disempowered to do anything about them because some of them are about interactions, right We've talked about a lot of things that people can do in their role, but a lot of them they're not gonna be able to um to make a difference. And so there's actually this sort of ah tension that I've seen sometimes where if you spend too much time on education or if you put all of your resources into that, you can get to the point where everyone is on board at the staff level, but the leadership hasn't gotten to the point where they're actually working on changes. And then they can actually feel quite disempowering for staff to be put in this position where they're often bearing the brunt
00:56:16
Speaker
of sort of the the the day-to-day interactions and the limitations of the organizations, but they don't have the power to really make a change, not in a more structural and systemic sense.
00:56:27
Speaker
So true. Yeah. And so debilitating and disheartening too, right? Especially if you have values in an organization that are about inclusion and diversity or any number of things caring for one another. I've seen a few different types of values and then you're like, and then this happens and like, and I can't even do anything or very little about it.
00:56:50
Speaker
What are we doing? You know? And so that, that, that kind of begs bigger questions that can distort and complicate things so versus if you do them in tandem, it's, it's much more fluid, much more,
00:57:03
Speaker
um a sense of progress, even if it's not like right away, doesn't need to be right away, but um still being able to to continue to to evolve in a way that yeah people feel excited about.
00:57:16
Speaker
Exactly. I think staff end up feeling like they're part of meaningful change in a way that actually makes them more invested in the organization, right? And a big thing too, that's come up a lot in the work that we with other organizations is building trust.
00:57:32
Speaker
So building trust with staff, building trust with clients or even coworkers that are trans and non-binary and is so pivotal for all kinds of things, well-being, belonging, ah but even safe productivity, being able to advance the work that you're you're doing.
00:57:50
Speaker
So all of that comes together with addressing things on both a cultural and a structural level. And even if you're waiting for things to change or maybe leadership is not aware yet, there's still things that can be done. And hopefully that there's a bit of empowerment there, even if longer term pieces need to fall into place. And another thing I want to add but as we're closing here is that, um, and then, and i have coauthored a fantastic research resource that goes into details that we've discussed here in the podcast, but has them documented so that, you know you can refresh your memory or
00:58:28
Speaker
Have it as a resource if you're a frontline staff next to you to be able to access um as you're encountering these things. But basically goes over you know some of these systems limitations and what are some options available to staff.
00:58:42
Speaker
Certainly it's not the end all be all, but hopefully it gives some um options for creativity and exploration in the ways that we've described. ah So we'll link that in the show notes.
00:58:53
Speaker
So feel free to download that and have that at the ready to hopefully expand your um ability to show up for trans and non-binary folks. And then thank you so much for for coming here today. I don't know if you have any closing thoughts or things that we've missed in our questions, but ah yeah, anything else you want to touch on?
00:59:15
Speaker
No, I think we've covered quite a bit of ground, to be honest. I know it can feel a little overwhelming when we're talking about these big systemic changes, but hopefully we've given people a bit of a sense of what they can do and and sort of the impact that they can have at that individual level, but also the power that they have to kind of be part of a larger ah change if they can. um Yeah, it was really lovely to have an opportunity to talk about um all of this with you. As you know, it this is a topic ah close and dear to my heart, and i always enjoy a chance to um to discuss it.
00:59:44
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your insights, but also practical tips and even stories to to humanize this and to really ah illustrate the impact of things. So it's been really valuable and hopefully really useful for folks. And ah so, yeah, with that, we'll we'll close the episode and bid everybody adieu for now and until the next episode.
01:00:06
Speaker
Goodbye.