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When Conflict Involves a Trans Employee, Here’s What Managers Can’t Overlook
13 Plays25 days ago
Sometimes, conflict shows up at work in ways that catch us off guard. A comment lands wrong, someone raises a concern, and suddenly, you’re the manager everyone turns to for what happens next.
If it’s about gender diversity, it can feel especially high-stakes. You want to support your team, but you don’t want to get it wrong. So you pause, hesitate or hope it’ll just blow over.
In this episode, we’re talking about what it really means to step in, especially when a trans or non-binary team member is involved. About how easy it is to slip into keeping things smooth for everyone else, while someone on your team is left feeling unseen or unsafe.
We’re not here to blame or shame. We know it’s hard. But we also know that going through conflict, rather than around it, can open the door to stronger trust, better conversations, and a workplace where everyone gets to feel like they belong.
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Transcript
Introduction and Overview
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm Elle and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
Legal Challenges and Managerial Inaction
00:00:17
Speaker
The court cases that have come through related to trans and non-binary folks, many of them are related to inaction from the managers or leaders in that case.
00:00:29
Speaker
Sometimes they learn something about themselves as cisgender
Gender Identity vs. Expression
00:00:32
Speaker
people. You know, why do we have expectations that somebody's gender identity needs to be aligned with how they express themselves?
00:00:45
Speaker
Not all conflicts are created equal, especially when gender identity enters the chat.
Conflicts and Safety for Trans Individuals
00:00:50
Speaker
In this episode, we unpack the tricky terrain of workplace conflict involving trans and non-binary people, where what gets brushed off as, quote, a difference of opinion can actually be a matter of safety and dignity.
Cisnormativity in Management
00:01:03
Speaker
Why do managers so often default to cisgender comfort and how can we do better? We share real world strategies from trans-focused work with HR and
Supporting Gender Diversity at Work
00:01:15
Speaker
managers. If you've ever felt stuck between inclusion and inaction, this episode is your guide to stepping up with clarity and care. And I'm joined by my colleague, Elle, to talk about this really important topic. How are you doing today, Elle?
00:01:29
Speaker
I'm doing great, Kai. How are you doing? Oh, fantastic. i'm I'm doing well also.
Managerial Inaction and Its Consequences
00:01:34
Speaker
Well, I wanted to start, Kai, with something you just said, which is that sometimes issues around gender diversity can be dismissed as a sort of difference of opinion. And I was wondering if you could start by going into that, because I imagine that that probably comes up quite a lot.
00:01:49
Speaker
Indeed. Yeah. So most managers are going to be cisgender. That is, they're not trans. And so when faced with issues related to being trans and non-binary, perhaps they haven't had any education or maybe very little.
00:02:08
Speaker
and so are just not very familiar with the challenges that trans and non-binary folks face and what the nature of those challenges are, how often they happen as well.
Understanding Pronouns in the Workplace
00:02:20
Speaker
And so it's likely that they're going to focus more and relate more to what cisgender, what the cisgender person in this situation is doing or thinking or saying.
00:02:32
Speaker
So they might be like, well, this is really just has nothing to do with me as a manager. I don't need to intervene. This is for them to sort out amongst themselves. You know, if we say talking about pronouns, a trans or non-binary person has shared their pronouns.
00:02:48
Speaker
and this other cisgender person is not respecting those, the cisgender manager may kind of say, yeah, I don't i don't get that. The singular use of they, them. and Maybe they think it's grammatically incorrect and are kind of almost siding with the cisgender person or perhaps understand why the cisgender person is uncomfortable.
00:03:08
Speaker
And so they won't come to the support and aid of the trans and non-binary person.
Managerial Responsibility in Inclusion
00:03:14
Speaker
usually not maliciously, just because they don't understand that this is actually a big deal.
00:03:20
Speaker
And in some cases, they don't know what the law is and that they do need to intervene, especially in instances of discrimination and don't understand the gravity of the situation and that their support is needed.
00:03:36
Speaker
And so these that's kind of some of the texture or dynamics that can happen. Obviously, not all cisgender managers do this, Some are dialed and understand, whether through education or just intuitively understand that they need to come and help trans and non-binary folks. But it's sometimes ah you know fairly large percentage of cisgender managers that don't know.
00:03:59
Speaker
You said just then about how often if the manager is cis, they they will just inevitably have a ah better understanding of where the other cisgender person is coming from.
Policy and Practice for Inclusion
00:04:11
Speaker
And so I guess I wanted to ask you about why... it's important to not just look at this as a difference of opinion and why it's important to actually acknowledge it for something actually quite serious and that even if you don't fully understand what the trans person is saying like why your role as a manager is really important to kind of look at this and deal with it not just just kind of leaving it to sort of sort out amongst yourselves Yeah.
00:04:39
Speaker
Typically when a cisgender staff member is struggling, they don't fully um know or understand the issues and will largely stay in that place or it can get worse. Typically things can escalate if unaddressed and that's of course any issue really, but yeah certainly on this one it can escalate without managerial intervention.
00:05:04
Speaker
And the court cases that have come through related to trans and non-binary folks, many of them are related to inaction from the managers or leaders in that case. And it really is incumbent upon them to take that action because even if they don't understand everything, like you were mentioning, there is still ah reinforcing or reiterating of values.
Intervening in Conflicts
00:05:28
Speaker
So most organizations have some sort of value of inclusion, at the very least respect and caring depends on the words used, but you can reiterate those to say this is how we show respect is by everybody gets their pronoun used properly in the workplace or their first name, or we don't leave them out of important decisions or meetings just because they're trans and, you know, mistreating them in some way.
00:05:57
Speaker
Or we show inclusion by um supporting folks to access the washrooms that align with their gender identity, right? And it's also supported by the law. So, you know, both values and having a better understanding of the legal landscape um and what kinds of decisions have been handed down to know what the role of of the leader is, is really important so that people can step in.
00:06:23
Speaker
And again, you don't have to have all the answers necessarily, but more to say, hey, we can solve this together. Let's take steps together, especially with the trans and non-binary person. They might have some ideas of what they want to happen and need the leader input or steps to help make that possible.
00:06:45
Speaker
Other times, the trans or non-binary person does want to handle it on their own, in which case, you know, the the manager or leader can be in the background ah waiting in case there is something else to do.
00:06:57
Speaker
But more often than not, there is something for the manager or leader to do, and you don't have to have it fully figured out don't have to necessarily even fully understand why it's important to the trans and non-binary person, but more the important thing is the action in tandem with the trans or non-binary person.
00:07:19
Speaker
That's so interesting that the thing that comes up in those court cases is inaction as opposed to malicious action or deliberate action. I feel like that's really interesting because I would imagine, and I certainly thought it was discrimination based on people actively being unkind or cruel, ah where actually it's just a lack of
Cultural Dynamics and Harm Normalization
00:07:42
Speaker
action. That's so interesting.
00:07:44
Speaker
and And with that, I wanted to kind of ask about that they like what actually happens when ah manager you used a phrase at the beginning ah when they prioritize discomfort kind of over trans safety and I wanted to know about how that shapes the outcomes of of um conflict like this yeah Yeah, it um kind of ah builds a permission structure for cisgender people to continue to act and speak in the ways that they do that continue the harm that trans and non-binary folks face. And it makes it okay to cause that harm, whether that's something that the cis manager intended or not.
00:08:27
Speaker
it It just becomes a part of the culture that some people will be left out or their access to things will be barred or, you know, some complexity in the workplace that really makes it difficult for trans and non-binary folks to to do their best, to be productive, to be able to concentrate on work and to show up, especially in and a team. Obviously, trends and non-binary folks want to contribute. you know <unk> We're like any other human being.
00:08:58
Speaker
But if there's complexities, it just makes it that much more difficult. And really, it it can escalate to where it puts the trans person in a position of having to choose, do I stay here or do I have to look for another job? It can escalate to that.
00:09:19
Speaker
degree of difficulty. And of course, it's very difficult
Manager Awareness and Positive Outcomes
00:09:22
Speaker
to find a job. Like it's a huge effort to go out back into the job market and secure something where the same might repeat itself and often does.
00:09:33
Speaker
And so to the degree that cis managers can be aware of the issues, take them seriously, and take tangible steps to resolving, it can really improve things, not just for the trans and non-binary person, but actually for the cisgender person as well, because they just maybe are not aware um and might learn something about you know how to respect trans person, not just in the workplace, but out in society at large. And so it can
Benefits of Inclusion for All
00:10:01
Speaker
have this positive ripple effect Or sometimes they learn something about themselves as cisgender people.
00:10:06
Speaker
You know, why do we have expectations that somebody's gender identity needs to be aligned with how they express themselves? You know, maybe I could, maybe I've always wanted to do something, but I felt nervous or hesitant. And by allowing others to have, you know, more expansive way of showing up at work, I can also have access to that as well. So there's so many benefits to stepping up to the plate.
00:10:32
Speaker
or for managers to show up and improve things.
Handling Conflicts with Uncertainty
00:10:36
Speaker
And it does reinforce the culture as well. So let's say you're in a situation at work as a manager and somebody is expressing, how do I say this?
00:10:48
Speaker
but Just this conflict, some conflict appears at work with regards to a cisgender person and a transgender person. I would imagine, and you'd you'd know this better than me, that a lot of managers,
00:11:00
Speaker
really don't know what to do. once Once this has happened, it's really, it can be a bit nerve wracking, perhaps because they have that feeling that they don't know enough themselves about it, or they're they're really unsure of what to do.
00:11:13
Speaker
What steps can a manager take? And also, what are options that a manager can bring in to the picture to kind of handle it? Yeah.
00:11:24
Speaker
And so well said about, you know, how managers can feel their own anxiety or, you know, not confident enough to step into these types of situations. so ah But there are real tangible steps. And I also appreciate, especially if there's perhaps not a and lot of guidance from there or the organization from a policy or procedural standpoint, and kind of leave managers, you you know, in this limbo land where they're trying to ah kind of sort it out themselves. So it's not
Steps for Addressing Trans Issues
00:11:56
Speaker
an easy task. so I want to acknowledge that.
00:11:58
Speaker
That said, there are some pretty simple steps. The first one of which is, depending on who's raising the issue, is to have a conversation with the trans or non-binary person, understand exactly what's happening. So asking questions, not in an interrogation style, but just more like, you know, tell me more.
00:12:17
Speaker
You can come with your own ideas too to say, I'm happy to do these three things. Do any of those resonate? You know, sometimes it's about the manager or leader taking charge of the situation. Other times it's about hanging back.
00:12:31
Speaker
It really depends on what comes of that conversation. But really slowing things down, I think oftentimes leaders are very action-oriented. understand, right? You want to nip this in the bud right away, shut her down.
00:12:44
Speaker
But as much as you can kind of slow things down, not to say you don't take any action ever, but just more to really understand what's happening here, what they've encountered, how often it's happened, when it happens, how it, you know, all the different types of questions you can ask and to know what the person needs and wants is helpful because that step in of itself is, it is a watershed because more often than not trans and non-binary folks get dismissed. We know this from the research that we do.
00:13:15
Speaker
It's just like, this not a thing. Sorry, you feel this way. You know, that kind of vibe.
Resolving Missteps and Conflicts
00:13:21
Speaker
So even by taking time and listening is the game changer, right? Right.
00:13:26
Speaker
I think so people kind of discount that, but it's big. And then taking the actions that are needed. There's there's options available, right? Right. Usually having a direct conversation, ah private conversation with a person that's you know being misstepping, whether intentionally or accidentally, and having a conversation, a frank one.
00:13:46
Speaker
It's not a matter of like, this person is the worst person ever vibes, but more like, hey, this is ah these are the values that our organization lives by. We see that this situation is happening, which is off of what ah we're trying to achieve here.
00:14:03
Speaker
We want to help you with this. There's a few different options available. And then outlining what those options are. And then seeing, you know, what their side of the story is as well to see what else might be gleaned from it.
00:14:17
Speaker
Some options available are that those two employees take time apart from one another. Different shift, different location. Of course, that's not a long-term solution, but it just gives each side a breather from what might be happening, and it avoids escalation because things can escalate if unaddressed or if they persist.
00:14:38
Speaker
There are options available. Sometimes people cite either religious differences or you know some sort of other um protected grounds. Of course, you know we're organizations are not asking questions people to change their religious beliefs, but there are different ways of approaching.
00:14:55
Speaker
So usually people have an okay time with somebody's new first name or a different first name. but they are a bit challenged on the pronoun side, which case there is the option of not saying any pronouns, right? i'm Not they, them. If somebody has said my name pronouns are she, her, you can't go to the they, them.
00:15:17
Speaker
That's not an alternative. They, them is used if we don't know somebody we're like a placeholder, that's fine. But once we know somebody's pronoun, we need to use it or There's the option of not using any pronoun and just somebody's first name.
00:15:31
Speaker
So just sketching those things out can help folks be like, okay, I'm not comfortable using that same person's pronoun, but I'll, I'll do the no pronoun approach, which takes practice.
Ensuring Lasting Solutions
00:15:42
Speaker
It's not very, you know, we're very used to going to pronouns, but any case. Yeah, those are a few things that that come to mind in terms of steps to to address the matter. Obviously, once you've addressed something, it is important to check in few times afterwards as well to see how things are going, to see if anything else needs to be done.
00:16:01
Speaker
But those are so some concrete steps that folks can take.
Education as a Tool for Understanding
00:16:05
Speaker
So when should education come into the picture? What kind of education makes difference? and If we're coming from a place of assuming that most people are relatively new to the to the idea of gender diversity to to this extent, what place does education have and in what?
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah, it's super important because if people have no context for gender diversity, it is often difficult for them to pay attention and to take seriously the things that are being asked of them or the need for respect of trans and non-binary folks.
00:16:41
Speaker
So even, you know, some of the language can help for people to know trans man versus non-binary versus, you know, there's ah like these terminology that create anxiety for folks.
00:16:54
Speaker
And once they know that you don't have to know somebody's gender to respectfully interact with them. just taking off some of those things that are kind of lingering in people's minds and also how to go about navigating pronouns and how to respect somebody and what to do, what not to do, that kind of thing. And just setting that stage for them to to be able to step up to the plate. That can be hugely helpful So that either you prevent the things from happening altogether if you started with that, or you address some of the missteps that are happening um either once in a while or on a frequent basis and help people shift and pivot away from those.
00:17:36
Speaker
So yeah, education can be a huge thing that can help with that and definitely can help managers as well. so that they know kind of what to reinforce and to reiterate for folks in case they need some reminders, which some people do, right?
00:17:54
Speaker
Something new. So maybe need to re reiterate. So yeah, those are some of the values of of education. It also helps take off some of that heavy lifting that often managers have to do.
00:18:05
Speaker
If you're educating people one by one, that's a lot versus, okay, let's get everybody together. One education session, same messages, and then just reiterating. And I guess to to close up here, I wanted to just ask about situations that Transfocus in particular have supported ah HR and and managers through and the things that have been really powerful and also just like what you have taken from those situations
Transfocus and Conflict Resolution
00:18:32
Speaker
as well. Like I'm curious to know from the other side as well about um what that's looked like.
00:18:37
Speaker
Yeah, there's been many instances where we've been called in when things have gone off the rails, you know, with involving ah trans or non-binary person who is either being discriminated against or um has a really difficult time at work, ah given some of the ignorance.
00:18:58
Speaker
It usually happens in the wake of somebody coming out at work, especially if there's not a lot of clear guidelines. Yeah. People don't know what to do or how to act.
00:19:09
Speaker
ah Maybe there's been education, maybe there hasn't, especially if there hasn't. It's a free fall for many. yeah And other leaders don't know how to show up either. And so it's really helping kind of refocus on what's important and that using somebody's name and pronouns, giving them access to washrooms, all of that is critical to be able to to be effective at work and inclusive and welcoming.
00:19:39
Speaker
And once that's established and the importance of that, then and people are able to turn the corner. We found really effective is looking oftentimes kind of beneath the surface. There are stressful thoughts that are kind of in the way and they're not readily visible, ah but those are often where people are stuck. rather than the behaviors on top of those stressful thoughts, if that makes sense. And so kind of have a hard time addressing the behaviors if we don't first name and work with those underlying stressful thoughts.
00:20:18
Speaker
So we've found a few scenarios in which we do some exercises around those stressful thoughts with individuals, especially individual leaders, and that helped them kind of unpack those to help them be the most effective um leader in that situation.
Empowering Trans and Non-Binary Employees
00:20:35
Speaker
And they didn't realize those things were at play for them. You know, my mistakes will hurt trans people. There's, you know, the trans person should tell us what to say or do.
00:20:46
Speaker
Like they're looking for guidance and instruction from right when that person is just trying to exist and find their way. Like, It's a lot to put on one person to, you know, instruct and managers, right? So just helping them unpack that they have access to that already, not, and not through that employee.
00:21:07
Speaker
And there's various other beliefs as well, or stressful thoughts at play. And so just unpacking those, it can be really interesting and powerful. And we also do that with the trans and non-binary person as well, as a way to empower them ah to feel like they can,
00:21:23
Speaker
share, because oftentimes trans and non-binary folks are very hesitant to raise any issues. They don't want to rock the boat. There's power imbalances. They worry about keeping their job.
00:21:34
Speaker
And so they're, you know, quiet as a church mouse. And when really the issues, it's helpful to have the issues highlighted.
Conflict Leading to Stronger Relationships
00:21:44
Speaker
So just helping empower them in that situation can be really powerful.
00:21:48
Speaker
Amazing. Do you have any kind of final thoughts before we, before we wrap up? Yeah, I would say that there's obviously there's you know aversion to conflict, especially in the workplace can be seen as this negative thing, which, you know, there is harm being done. So obviously you want to address it, but that there's life beyond conflict and by going through the conflict and working you know, in a meaningful, intentional way with everyone involved, it actually can lead to stronger relationships, whether that's just work relationship or perhaps more.
00:22:30
Speaker
And so it's really useful, helpful, important to go through that conflict and to address it and and that you don't need to know everything before going into it. And you can even say as much, like I'm learning as I go.
00:22:45
Speaker
And that humility actually is ah is an important part of the conflict resolution because it's kind of everyone coming together too to step through it. And last but not least is to to believe trans and non-binary folks.
00:23:00
Speaker
And even if you don't fully understand.
Closing Remarks and Support Emphasis
00:23:02
Speaker
What a good note to end on. Thank you so much, Kai. Where can everyone find you on social media? I'm very sporadic with asking you that. Yes, yes. ah We've got LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, Threads, Blue Sky, Instagram, etc. YouTube, this is where some of the podcasts are posted as well.
00:23:26
Speaker
And yeah, we have weekly posts, all kinds of micro learning to reinforce some of what we've talked about today, but other topics as well. So it's really good source of of understanding and hope you'll join us there.
00:23:42
Speaker
Amazing. Thank you so much, Kai.