Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
International Non-Binary People’s Day and the Expansive Power of Gender and Connection
21 Plays2 months ago
To mark International Non-Binary People’s Day, we’re switching seats!
In this episode, Kai takes on the role of interviewer, inviting El - usually the one asking the questions - to share their story as a non-binary, gender-fluid person.
El speaks to what it’s like to navigate the world without a clear blueprint, and how turning inward has helped shape a life that feels grounded, open and full of possibility. We talk about common misconceptions, moments of recognition and the role of real, curious, human connection in expanding how we understand gender.
Whether you’re cis, trans, non-binary or still figuring things out, this episode is a reminder that gender isn’t necessarily a fixed point - it’s an unfolding story.
Download our FREE Non-Binary Resource here: https://www.transfocus.ca/freeresourcedownload
___________
Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
Join us on social media: LinkedIn | Instagram | TikTok | Threads | Facebook
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction and Context
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm El and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of Transfocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
Richness Beyond Binary Genders
00:00:18
Speaker
Unfortunately, if we just have kind of two genders, we miss all of this richness that exists. For a lot of people, there's a lot of pain associated that in coming to terms with that, is it is it that they're seeking attention or is it that they're seeking connection?
00:00:41
Speaker
Welcome back to Gender in Focus and happy International Non-Binary People's Day. July 14th is a day to pause, celebrate, and spotlight the richness and resilience of non-binary identities.
00:00:53
Speaker
And today's episode is extra special. Usually it's El asking the questions, but not this time. The mic is flipped and El in the hot seat. In honor
Personal Journeys to Understanding
00:01:04
Speaker
of the day, I'm going to take the interviewer role and dive into El's story and perspectives on as a non-binary person and I'm really excited and of course super honored that El agreed to do this because of course we're not wanting to put this on anybody that doesn't want to but I'm so glad you're here. Hello El are you doing? Hello, I'm very well, how are you?
00:01:27
Speaker
I'm doing great as well. Had a great weekend. And so, yeah, just really excited to talk about this topic. Typically, when we're talking about trans and non-binary issues, the focus tends to be on trans women and trans men and non-binary folks are often overlooked, which I think we need to adjust. And so that's why this type of day is so important. But I'd i'd love to hear from you.
00:01:52
Speaker
What is International Non-Binary People's Day? Well, first of all, is obviously a day all about me. So I fully expect everyone to have their attention on me. No, it's a day to celebrate non-binary people.
00:02:06
Speaker
I think you're right that maybe the conversation around trans issues is focused primarily on trans men and trans women. so It's just a day to recognize and celebrate non-binary people.
00:02:17
Speaker
It's directly between International Women's Day in March and International Men's Day in November. So it's right in the middle of that, which feels cute to me. And it's yet all about celebrating non-binary people.
00:02:29
Speaker
Wow, fantastic. Yeah, it's and i I echo that. It's really important
Misconceptions and Recognition
00:02:33
Speaker
to know that. And, you know, could you dive a little bit more into why it's important to celebrate celebrate non-binary people separately from, say, the broader 2SLGBTQIA community?
00:02:46
Speaker
I know there's numerous awareness days, and of course, each one is important in their own respect, but why focus on on non-binary folks? I think really, I mean, there's a lot of misunderstanding around and non-binary issues and non-binary people in general, but also within the 2SLGBTQIA community.
00:03:05
Speaker
So I think it's really important to have that because, like Again, like we we do lump these issues in with more generic trans issues. And while there is a lot of overlap, they aren't the same. So it is important to kind of highlight, I would say every identity deserves to be recognized individually. But for for non-binary people, I think it it can be overlooked. And yeah, just the fact that there is so much misunderstanding in the wider community, but also within our community as well.
00:03:34
Speaker
That's why it's important to me. I like seeing that at least is because it can kind of offer another perspective or other kind of conversations. Yeah, absolutely. And just an opportunity for a deeper dive.
00:03:46
Speaker
Sometimes when you have kind of 2SLGBTQIA, that's just so many different identities. And yeah it's like an overview, but you can't really dive into. And that's what I'm so excited about here today.
00:03:58
Speaker
to dive into those. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about you and your identity and ah really just appreciating that you're one of so many ah non-binary folks. So just that this is your story it's an important aspect of it, but I think it helps illustrate some of the things that perhaps people just have not had an opportunity to to hear about, to think about.
00:04:23
Speaker
And so I'd love to hear more about you and your identity. When it comes to non-binary as a label, I think it's maybe not understood that it's an umbrella term and that there are so many identities within a non-binary identity. So you could have um like genderqueer, genderfluid,
00:04:42
Speaker
um demi go demi boy ah bigen panjet like there's so many, I think I've missed loads, but there are so many for me, I identify closely or more closely with um gender fluidity.
00:04:55
Speaker
So I feel like I'm both a woman and non-binary and shifts for me, that I'm quite a lot, it fluctuates maybe on a day-to-day basis, but also within the day I might have different, I might feel differently about my gender.
00:05:13
Speaker
And sometimes even depending on a situation I'm in, it might change. And so, and then sometimes I'll feel both at the same time. um That doesn't happen so often for me, but, but it has happened.
00:05:25
Speaker
And I know a few people for whom that's the norm, but for me, it's, it tends to be
Childhood and Identity Acceptance
00:05:30
Speaker
separated. I think that can be a little hard maybe to understand for a lot of people for whom they just have their one gender. But for me, it fluctuates quite a lot.
00:05:39
Speaker
And it was very hard to pinpoint because of i because I couldn't work out what that was and why I would feel so different. It's a really confusing thing, especially because we don't have like a blueprint exactly for what that looks like.
00:05:51
Speaker
No kidding. I can only imagine just how much it is to unpack gender in general. And then if there's, you know, that variability that you're describing, then you're like, oh, maybe I'm not that, you know, but then you are that, but it's just momentarily not there. Right. So it's just like, you know, how can you stay in that um and and honor it as well?
00:06:16
Speaker
And without a blueprint, that's so true. There's just no way in our society that we've set up ah where there's an understanding and for somebody to explore that and to come to that understanding.
00:06:30
Speaker
I didn't really think about it too much prior to about two years ago. But theyre ah on reflection, when I look back and see myself as a little kid, how confusing I found it. And like I can pinpoint these moments, especially in my teens, of where I was getting really muddled.
00:06:46
Speaker
And i didn't but didn't know what was going on. And I was getting really confused. And it's really it's interesting to reflect back on that. But now I have ah I have language for it. So I didn't have language for it then.
00:06:58
Speaker
yeah that the Having language for it, for something that's genuinely, authentically happening internally is paramount. um you know And if that's not available as a kid, it is totally incomplete. I can only imagine how disorienting in know the ways that you describe It's just like, holy smokes.
Balancing Identity Aspects
00:07:17
Speaker
And when I hear your description, what comes to mind is I mean, I'm sure this is something that you've cultivated over time, but as matter of presence with self.
00:07:29
Speaker
And so I just kind of interested if if you would like to share, you know, how did you come to that, um to that presence with self, because you're, you're really able to observe kind of what's coming up and in the moment and that coming and going.
00:07:47
Speaker
I mean, therapy is a big answer to that. But no, I would say more generally learning to trust myself was how I then began to pinpoint it. And so there was, I was having a bit of a hard time a few years ago, ah just nothing to do with my gender. And having to go through gradually learning to trust myself about who I am through that also just opened these doors to understanding other parts of myself that I hadn't really looked at.
00:08:17
Speaker
It was just understanding that there are so many different parts that make up the whole and and kind of leaning into each individual part and and looking at it, just allowing myself to really look at it and not have to do anything about it, but just see it.
00:08:31
Speaker
was a really important... part of that and the way that I have described it I think um it's a bit cringe so forgive me ah but this is the way I can no such thing no such thing all of it's so important this this way of understanding it was so you know how we had a conversation a while ago on the podcast about being outside and how important going outside is That's all true and I love being outside.
00:08:58
Speaker
Then there's this also this other part of me that really likes, I'm such a homebody and I love getting my cute candles and shutting my curtains and making my home cozy and cute.
00:09:09
Speaker
and i And it's very warm and comforting and familiar and cozy. And I love that so much. And that to me feels like this aspect of my womanhood and that it's familiar and it's exactly where I wanna be when I want to be there.
00:09:24
Speaker
And that's true. i i really love that. And at the same time, I also love being outside and I love being out in nature and I love like where being at home feels very enveloping and safe.
00:09:36
Speaker
Being outside feels very expansive and huge and spacious and exciting. And I love both of those things. And both of those things are almost like they're seemingly opposed, but they work together to create like a whole life that I love. And that's how this feels to me.
00:09:54
Speaker
being non-binary feels like I have this part of me that I love, but there's all this other stuff too. And realizing that I'm made up of different parts that might seem to conflict, but actually just make up a whole, a whole human. That's how I came to terms with this.
00:10:09
Speaker
Does that make sense? Oh, absolutely. And that's like deeply profound and just also, know, Like being with oneself in a way that is complete, right? Rather than kind of shutting down aspects of oneself because it doesn't fit into this mold that we've been provided by society, which, sure, for some people works great, but if it doesn't, for some of us, including yourself,
00:10:35
Speaker
then you know what is a model that
Societal Expectations and Identity
00:10:38
Speaker
works for you? I mean, model sounds a bit like esoteric, but just you know ah a way ah of being that incorporates all those different aspects. And what a beautiful analogy too, right? Because I think people can relate to wanting to be cozy and adventurous, right? And why would you exclude one or even both because it doesn't fit somehow? It's just like, no, you could do both.
00:11:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's so freeing. And yeah, I mean, if I had to stay locked in my house, I love being home. But if I had to be home and locked in, i would feel very suffocated. And if I only lived in a tent and I never had somewhere else to go, i imagine I'd be pretty uncomfortable.
00:11:19
Speaker
So it's sort of this really nice balance. And I just I love both. I wouldn't want to let go of either of those things. And for some people, That isn't what it feels like. their whole Their gender as a man or a woman feels like all of that as well. But for me, they feel separate, like these two separate things.
00:11:36
Speaker
yeah And I know that's not everybody's experience, but it is mine. that's fantastic. And that you've been, you're you're committed to to but figuring that out, even though I'm sure there was a lot of, you know...
00:11:49
Speaker
difficulty or pain associated it. It's just like, no, it just, you know, staying the course and coming to ah to these these very powerful realizations. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that's really insightful and and really gives people a texture of this because unfortunately, if we just have kind of two genders, we miss all of this richness that exists.
00:12:13
Speaker
It's exciting when people are committed to themselves and also like you sharing that so that people have that insight to people's gender. And just last week, we had a question from an audience member about what does gender fluid mean?
00:12:29
Speaker
And is it different from age gender, right? So sometimes we have all these terms, and i appreciate that if people aren't exposed to them or haven't learned about them yet, kind of maybe a bit disorienting for them.
00:12:41
Speaker
and So, yeah. yeah And so I'm glad you've given like a richer insight into your experience of, of gender fluidity. we kind of often think of it as like, ah when we have a Venn diagram of like this circle is woman and this circle is man. And there are a few people that are in the middle. I think that's how people think of non-binary people.
00:13:02
Speaker
For me, I feel more like on the outside bit of the Venn diagram. I don't think of myself as in the middle. And I think that's where we get a bit lost when it comes to like gender expression is that we put non-binary people in the middle of being a woman and being a man. And I, to me, it's just about expansion rather than another little box to put myself in.
00:13:24
Speaker
and Like, but I think often we, we just love boxes. Humans love boxes or at least in the West, we love boxes. Being non-binary for me feels like taking the lid off the box rather than putting myself in a separate box.
00:13:39
Speaker
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Then it you you can be with whatever is coming up rather than having to like figure out, okay, which box does this now belong into? And it sounds like you can just be.
00:13:53
Speaker
That's what it feels closest to, where being in my little cute house feels like comfort and being out in the forest, in as in the analogy, feels doesn't feel as comfortable and maybe that's because I'm quite newly out but it does feel the most natural like I feel the closest to myself in that scenario yeah you wow and you just touched on something that I think is really important about gender expression right the difference between kind of gender identity, our internal felt sense of our gender versus gender expression, and of the outward appearance of folks.
00:14:31
Speaker
And I kind of, one of my next set of questions is just about common misunderstandings or myths. And one of them is about gender expression. And so, yeah, that, and perhaps some other ones that you can think of that aren't related to that. Just can you can you explain some of the common myths and misunderstanding of non-binary folks?
00:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, gender expression is the one that I probably struggle with the most is that, and and not just from other people, but it's one that I struggle with within myself too, where I really grappled with it, which is that to be non-binary is to be androgynous and to be androgynous is to be non-binary. And those two things are actually totally separate. think they don't They don't mean anything together at all.
00:15:16
Speaker
And there are a lot of non-binary people who are androgynous. There's also a lot of androgynous people who are not non-binary and who express themselves in that way. So I present in a, in a way that we really associate with femininity and it it's hard because it often means that people don't believe me or, or there's a lot of doubt around my identity because why, like I've had
Seeking Authenticity and Understanding
00:15:40
Speaker
why have you got long hair then?
00:15:42
Speaker
Or why do you like pink or why it's it just, these things are so shallow. The, the way that we focus on gender in the West especially is just these shallow things that aren't real. but like It's all made up.
00:15:58
Speaker
There's no gene that says men like blue and women like pink. that's there's no like That doesn't mean anything. We've just decided that that's what it is. And so the same would apply for non-binary people.
00:16:11
Speaker
There is no rule about what it looks like to be non-binary. And so I feel like I align with a very feminine expression, but that doesn't mean that I'm not non-binary. that There are two separate concepts and that people, you know, their identity is is really just that internal experience And then what people choose to do on the exterior is, you know, completely up to them based on a whole variety of things ah that are about authenticity.
00:16:44
Speaker
You said something once that was really beautiful. and You said it like months ago and I think about it really regularly, which was that your you said, and and I'm not going to remember it word for word, but you said something about how you your femininity is a part of what makes you a man.
00:17:02
Speaker
And I loved that so much because that... is it that's exactly it that these these are ways that we express ourselves but it doesn't take away anything from our identity and that your masculinity or your your manhood is not questioned by the fact that you have a flowery shirt on in some context like do you know what i mean like that it's you're not at risk your your gender isn't at risk if you like things that maybe would surprise people and I think it's really sad that we assign these things to certain people and say that you can't like a flowery shirt if you're a man or you can't like pink if you're a man you can't like blue if you're a girl or or a woman it's just so silly and there's so many things like I love playing with gender quite a lot and when I'm referring to myself I use gendered language all the time just because I find it it's like an in joke for me
00:17:55
Speaker
all right where I'll refer to myself as a girl or a girly, even though I'm non-binary because I'm doing something that's very, very feminine. I'm sort of leaning into it to be silly to myself. But then there'll be other things like I ah i love car engines. I mess around with car engines ah quite a lot. i used to when I had a car.
00:18:14
Speaker
And that one, the reaction I get when I say that I like things is like I've just said, like I've murdered a family or something like the reaction so big. And it's like, I just have long hair and I like car engines. There's nothing actually inherently wrong about that. And so our ah the way that we like obsess with these boxes is so restrictive. And I love it.
00:18:37
Speaker
messing around with it and not being a part of that um but also being a part of it so that for sure yeah yeah of course i mean there are things that are genuine that you know society expects and then there are other parts that you know are just of your interest and ah i love that example of the the car engine right because you know People don't expect that and then you know overreact or have a lot of questions. there's so and There's a number of different ways that people signal that this is not, quote, the norm or what usually should happen.
00:19:12
Speaker
You just like car engines and tail it's figuring them out. like yeah And we do this so often. i don't think people maybe are conscious of just how often it happens. And of course,
00:19:26
Speaker
a lot to non-binary folks, especially in the ways that you described around gender expression. um But to really many other folks, I mean, once we start doing education sessions, all these stories come out and I'm like, oh my gosh, so tragic that we're going to block off certain things because that's not what our gender tells us or society tells our gender should do or want to do or whatnot. So um yeah For sure.
00:19:52
Speaker
I think... I just think being non-binary doesn't mean I have to give up the things I really like to do or the way I like to dress or the way I like to express myself. I just... Those two things are separate and you can be non-binary and androgynous if you want or you can be non-binary and super masculine if you want or in my way is to be very feminine and still non-binary. That doesn't make me less non-binary because of it in the same way that if you are a man who likes...
00:20:21
Speaker
I and i just i think i the reason I love non-binary people, it's not just because we're great, but because there's so much tenacity in that.
00:20:33
Speaker
um but You just have to be yourself. I think this is true of all trans people in general, to be honest with you. The way that we have these restrictions means be connected to the people not to acknowledge that you're trans or non-binary is inherently to be tenacious, I think.
00:20:49
Speaker
um And I just wish that we could all do that. It's not restricted to it because everybody does something that's outside of what we think the norm is. Everyone has something.
00:21:00
Speaker
Yeah, true. True. But you're right in the face of so many messages from society. you to be able to keep going um does require a lot of tenacity.
00:21:12
Speaker
And, you know, there's some playfulness too, which you've described. But yeah, you to stay committed to who one is, it's just, yeah, it it takes a lot.
00:21:23
Speaker
um And sometimes it's easier, sometimes harder, you know, it varies. But so, i yeah, I was wondering if there are any other common myths and myth misconceptions about non-binary folks.
00:21:36
Speaker
I think another one that I've experienced and struggled with is the idea that there's, that it's made up and that it's all just like attention seeking. I think i I read so many comments like that online, especially,
00:21:51
Speaker
I mean, there are sort of two things I want to say about that. That first of all, that we need to really understand that humans are social beings and that we need each other. The need to feel seen it's about survival. The need to be seen and understood by each other to connect with each other is,
00:22:14
Speaker
like our survival depends on it. And if someone shares with you that they're non-binary, it takes so much reflection to get to that point. in you It's not just a random, I've woken up this morning and decided I'm non-binary. It takes so much. it's It's taken me years and years and years to really come to terms with this.
00:22:31
Speaker
And for a lot of people, there's a lot of pain associated that in coming to terms with that, is it Is it that they're seeking attention or is it that they're seeking connection when somebody shares this with you?
00:22:43
Speaker
I don't know. Whenever I've told someone about being non-binary and there haven't been many, it's always been people that I want to connect with and that I want them to understand who I am. And if I didn't tell them,
00:22:55
Speaker
nothing would happen. i'm I'm somebody that is fine with being seen as a woman, so it doesn't actually matter. But you are not, then there's this huge part of me that you don't know. And so you can only get so far with knowing me. So up until really December 2024, no one really knew me.
00:23:15
Speaker
and not Not really, you know, they knew me well enough, but there was this thing, quite a big thing or quite a big part of who I am that they didn't know. So I don't think that it's attention seeking to want to be recognized as real.
00:23:26
Speaker
The second thing though, is that even if it's true that people are already are attention seeking, is that a like, is that that bad? Like, is there, I don't know, often for trans and non-binary people, they're, they've been hiding this thing for so long that, and it's so significant. and And it's like I said, there's so much struggle for a lot of people that when they come to that realization,
00:23:47
Speaker
And maybe they do want to be really seen. Like maybe they do want they want that. Maybe they do want some attention about that. No one is really harmed by that. ah If anything, i don't know, I feel very deeply uncomfortable with the idea of everybody staring at me and like being seen that closely by people.
00:24:05
Speaker
But when you when I told you that I was non-binary, you like were excited for me. And that was the first time that I'd had that. I felt very excited and very seen by it in a way that I hadn't before. So i can understand why somebody would want attention.
00:24:21
Speaker
that Oh, absolutely. And I think people misunderstand, you know, if there's like an attention seeking thing, that there's some sort of negative aspect rather than this like explosion of energy after having figured it out and,
Gender as a Spectrum
00:24:40
Speaker
you know, toiled because it's like no shortage of a lot of work and then wanting to share that with others. I love what you say about connection. It's so true.
00:24:50
Speaker
that it's really an invitation to somebody's internal world um that has been cloistered away, you know, for a good reason. Maybe it's to figure it out or for safety or whatever.
00:25:01
Speaker
And so once those gates open, you know, people, but they're not... They're not looking for or most people are not looking for a rubber stamp. It's not that kind of attention seeking.
00:25:13
Speaker
It's more of this an expression, ah finally, probably a bit bottled up. And so that's where the energy is coming from. yeah Of course, everyone's different. And, you know, there could be some aspect of people needing affirmation and There's nothing wrong with that either.
00:25:27
Speaker
um But yeah it's it's yeah, it's sad that people can't see this as something positive. And instead, it's very rather dismissive of what people are sharing.
00:25:41
Speaker
we've largely in our society only talked about men and women, boys and girls. That's, you know, that's it in people's minds. And so yeah um they tend to be a bit surprised when like other things, gender is also a spectrum.
00:26:00
Speaker
And so I don't know if you have any other kind of thoughts on on that matter in terms of why people think it's made up. I think that it's like a huge, well, how existential can I get?
00:26:14
Speaker
Let me, I'll try and dampen it down. I think it's like a massive, like self-denial when people deny the existence of non-binary people.
00:26:25
Speaker
I think that people see gender as this sort of rigid box to put myself in, to contain myself and to contain yourself. is like a self-denial, in my opinion. It's its um reducing yourself down to a list of things that are acceptable.
00:26:45
Speaker
And so when people look at it as made up, I think that they're missing huge parts of themselves too. I read about a study where participants watched videos of people they don't know putting their hands in ice water.
00:27:01
Speaker
The researchers found that the participants' own hands had a noticeable drop in temperature, like just from watching these videos. Along with a few things, I think that this really shows innate empathy and compassion of humans and how we are built to connect and to see each other. That's how we're designed. And so when you deny my existence as a non-binary person, you are denying so much of yourself too.
00:27:31
Speaker
And when you see me as a non-binary person, you also open up all these possibilities for yourself too. And that's how I view it And I think that we are really scared of that. And we really can learn most about this from indigenous groups.
00:27:45
Speaker
And in my opinion, from around the world, there are so many communities around the world that recognize not just a third gender, but a fourth gender and a fifth gender. And maybe they don't look at gender at all in the way that we do.
00:27:56
Speaker
There are so many examples of the expansiveness of humans and the idea that we can just reduce ourselves down to two lists is silly in in my opinion.
00:28:08
Speaker
It's not real. And being non-binary is more real than being within the binary for me, at least. I think we can learn a lot from people who are not restricted by Western views of gender.
00:28:22
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. Such a good point, too. And it points to non-binary folks having existed, or let's not even, like sometimes non-binary is a, you know, modern term for something that has existed for so long in many different forms.
00:28:38
Speaker
And, you know, that it's already been recognized in different times around the world. ah
Pronouns and Their Importance
00:28:45
Speaker
And that, you know, it is like an expansive version. And I like what you said too about if someone is very upset by this or dismissive or discounting, there that might, you know, shed some light on, you know, what are aspects of within themselves that they're discounting or dismissing, right? So it's ah it's a kind of inward reflection of their own experience.
00:29:11
Speaker
But of course it also impacts The non-binary person, right? Like these have so real implications too. So, but that given how we're connected, we are that anything but wanting to know more is is something going on for the other person. So, yeah.
00:29:28
Speaker
And I do get that it can be confusing in in a world where we have these binaries. I can completely understand why non-binary identity as a whole can be really confusing for people. But I think if you can understand that there are things outside of your own experience, you don't actually have to understand what it is. You can just understand that it exists.
00:29:51
Speaker
Yeah. And also respect what that person is stating, what their needs are, or, you know, what they go by, you know, any number of things. So, and actually that leads me into another question I have when it comes to non-binary identities, a big factor, at least for some folks is, okay, what do I do about it? And, you know, some aspect of the everyday are pronouns, right?
00:30:20
Speaker
And so I'm curious to hear from you about pronouns, and with you know both the how they help us, especially how we interact with one another, but also how they can sometimes create limits as well. So just curious your thoughts on those.
00:30:34
Speaker
I really find the conversation about pronouns like exciting, but also exhausting and annoying. So of i I think that often... non-binary identities are reduced down to pronouns.
00:30:48
Speaker
And that's all people think ah of is androgyny and pronouns. And that's what a non-binary person is. And well, firstly, I should say that using they them pronouns isn't something that is just a non-binary experience. So, or you can be non-binary and not use they, them pronouns at all.
00:31:09
Speaker
For example, I was pretty sure I was non-binary two years before I started using they, them pronouns. And so in those two years I was using exclusively she and her, and I was still non-binary and in those moments. In fact, I've been non-binary my whole life. I just didn't know it.
00:31:27
Speaker
And i was still using she and her pronouns. And so there might be non-binary people and you don't even know because they haven't expressed that they are non-binary and they haven't told you that they have different pronouns. So you might know some non-binary people.
00:31:42
Speaker
The second part of that, I would say is that to use... they them pronouns doesn't mean that you are non-binary either. There are people who use they them pronouns for actually like a whole load of reasons. There's some people that use it just because they don't like being restricted by the gender, by the the way that we normalize different acts within gender, that that sort of list of what is right for certain gender. Some people just want to use they them pronouns to kind of separate themselves from that.
00:32:09
Speaker
I know somebody who uses both he, him and they them pronouns, not because he's non-binary, but because he has a kid and he wants that child to learn about they them pronouns and so uses them to normalize it in their house.
00:32:25
Speaker
And they are not non-binary, but right they they just use it because it's sort of, yeah, making it comfortable for their kid. And I love that. I think that's a really great use of those pronouns, to be honest with you.
00:32:39
Speaker
Isn't it? So nice. And so pronouns are not restricted to or they then pronouns, sorry, are not restricted to non-binary people. um Also, we all have pronouns. So it's not like this new thing that's happened. I think that's another thing.
00:32:53
Speaker
People are complaining about us going crazy and wanting to use pronouns. ah You've never gone through a a day in your life without using at least one pronoun unless you have been entirely silent and just sitting in a box with your eyes closed.
00:33:05
Speaker
Then i will concede that you maybe have. If you've been on a silent retreat, maybe not. But other than that, 99.99% of the population. If you're going about your day-to-day, yes. There are pronouns of things that we have always used. You cannot go through your life without using them.
00:33:21
Speaker
ah So it's not a sort of crazy thing that non-binary people have invented. um Also, there is this idea that there is the grammar. We must adhere to grammar. Ah,
00:33:33
Speaker
There's ah so many thing tangents I could go on with this. The first is it's very Anglo-centric. There are so many languages that use pronouns in a different way or use grammar in a different way. Humanity is so much bigger than the language that we we've invented.
00:33:49
Speaker
ah for sure. Yeah. But not not only that, we do use the singular they them all the time. Like we use it all the time. Someone's parked their car outside my house. I hope they move it soon because I need to go to work is a completely normal sentence.
00:34:05
Speaker
Uses a singular they them. For one person. don't know Right. We just don't know what their gender is. We don't expect a group of three people to come out and move the car. And how would how else would we say it?
00:34:17
Speaker
Like he he or she has parked his or her car outside my house. I hope he or she comes back to move it. It's crazy. We don't speak like that. It is proper grammar. It's also, you know, ah returning back to how we used to say things in kind of Shakespearean time.
00:34:35
Speaker
Obviously, not only relying on Shakespeare to to make this possible, but but certainly it's not a ah new thing.
00:34:46
Speaker
essential No, it's not. and And even if it were, does it ah honestly matter? Really? Does it matter? i i just don't think it does. If you're going to be making people feel seen a and understood, maybe if they don't feel like that with the current grammar scheme that we have,
00:35:03
Speaker
maybe it might be time to update that to reflect the experiences that everybody has, not just the experiences of a sort of accepted way of speaking. Yeah. But it is also grammatically correct.
00:35:14
Speaker
ah Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And so important to kind of parse out all of these different components. And and I appreciate what you said at the beginning, too, of this question is just, you know,
00:35:27
Speaker
Of course, we talk about this topic within the context of somebody being non-binary, but that's not, it's it's not the only thing. And it's, you know, one part of a larger ah puzzle ah for somebody to be fully accepted and seen for who they are. so but still important to touch on it because it does come up.
00:35:47
Speaker
yeah Of course. Demystifying some of these things. And what about ah for your own pronouns? I use both she, her, and they, them pronouns.
00:35:59
Speaker
That's really reflective of that fluidity. I don't mind which, so obviously it would be the best if on the moments that I'm feeling like a woman, people use she she and her. And on the moments where I'm not,
00:36:14
Speaker
people would use they and they them. That would be my ideal. Sometimes I don't necessarily know what, where I'm, ah where I am until somebody uses a a specific pronoun for me.
00:36:26
Speaker
um So I have a lot of leniency and like, I'm not, it's okay for me. It doesn't bother me. It doesn't upset me. It doesn't hurt me in any way. And if it did, then there would be things that I could do to pronouns, fine. would dismiss that part of And would I'm not to able say, these are the pronouns it's, me, I don't mind when I first told people that I was using they, them pronouns.
00:36:47
Speaker
Yeah. I was a lot more. Uh, I talked it down a lot more than I realized I felt. So when I first introduced it to people, I would say things like I, I'm using she, her, and they, them pronouns, but she has fine. and i would sort of dismiss that part of me Because I think I was very worried about being a burden. And and that like that's another part is that people are worried that trans and non-binary people are going to explode if you get it wrong. And actually, I wanted to create as little drama as possible around this.
00:37:20
Speaker
So I haven't told very many people. And the people i have told, I led with that entirely. That right you can so carry on using she-ha so nothing changes for them. It's all about how they're feeling and how they perceive it.
00:37:31
Speaker
And that's how i I went through it. And then... You know, I have a huge privilege in that I work ah for Transfocus. So there's a lot of understanding around this. so i would I would hope. yeah This is where I'm like, hot take. Actually, Transfocus are terrible about pronouns.
00:37:49
Speaker
Transfocus as a whole misgender me repeatedly. Headlines. Yeah. So when I told you you, switched to they, them immediately. And i literally felt like I was on fire. ever I was so excited and I was so happy. And it was the first time that I had received that.
00:38:09
Speaker
And so I was, it felt like being seen for the first time ever, even though I had told other people before, it was the first time that it had been an immediate switch. if ah You are the only people, you and Nico, our other colleague Nico, are the only people that refer to me in that way. And it's not that it's a thing that I mind exactly, but it's a noticeable thing to me that I can feel so seen.
00:38:31
Speaker
And it was really exciting and exciting. um It was such an amazing experience to have that for the first time. What I will say is that the other day, Nico referred to me as she, her in a meeting and I had the exact same feeling, which is so bizarre to me because I always have that.
00:38:49
Speaker
but So I think it's just in the context of these people that see me, it was a really noticeable moment for me that I felt electric and excited about hearing she, her pronouns, which I've never had in my life because I'm always referred to in that way.
00:39:05
Speaker
Wow. Is that because, I mean, I'm sure there's many reasons, but is it because there's the the the use of they, them that allows for the she to have a different experience of the she? Yeah.
00:39:18
Speaker
I think so. Yeah. Because I know that you're not exclusively seeing me in that way. Right. Does that, does that make sense? in Absolutely. With Nico and you, I'm not exclusively being seen as she, her.
00:39:31
Speaker
I know that you use they, them pronouns because you predominantly do use they, them pronouns with me. That on hearing she, her, it was like another like buzz of like, oh, I'm really being seen.
00:39:43
Speaker
Even though I don't think that was actually intentional, I think that he just said it. I think that he just said it. mean, who's to say? Let's let's ah get get him on with phone call. Just kidding.
00:39:54
Speaker
But I mean, I wonder, because the way that you describe your gender fluidity, There is a, um you know, a noticing that takes place and you're doing that internally, but people could be feeling that externally as well, like intuiting. um You know, I don't want to give too much on to Nico that maybe is not there for him, but...
00:40:20
Speaker
You know, ah we are, like you said, connected. So there is transfer of information, even if words aren't exchanged. So if people could tap into more of that, perhaps they could know, you know, when to say she or maybe just allow it to happen organically. And it's like, oh, she popped out.
00:40:41
Speaker
Oh, they popped out, you know, just like there's an attuning to that. two ah that has to happen or not has to happen, but is a part of the process. so Yeah. It was such a, it was a really weird experience because what I noticed my pronouns a hundred percent of the time. I'm never not noticing what pronouns somebody is using.
00:41:02
Speaker
Right. and And it doesn't, it's not and in a negative way. I'm just aware of it all the time. And so I don't know. ah well i just wasn't expecting that pronoun to be used from this person individually. I just wasn't expecting it. And it was a really lovely moment of feeling like I'd been seen, ah which is odd because yeah, I'd been, somebody had referred to me as she like an half an hour prior, but just because that was an assumption, whereas it doesn't feel like an assumption when people are using your pronouns consciously.
00:41:33
Speaker
Yeah. The intentionality is key. yeah Because in general society,
Empathy and Acceptance
00:41:40
Speaker
we are quite ah unaware.
00:41:44
Speaker
we just People may not even realize what they're doing. of like Looking at somebody, categorizing them as feminine or masculine, maybe androgynous, and then attributing pronouns like that two-step unconscious uh kind of assumption versus uh you know knowing somebody's pronoun and then applying them accordingly so yeah yeah it's a really great feeling to feel seen and i wish everybody could experience that ah but i do feel that here
00:42:18
Speaker
Yeah. And I'm so glad you described it too, because I think for folks for whom they've maybe always or mostly had their proper pronouns used that may not realize how yeah how hard it is to get misgendered and or not intentionally use of pronouns towards them.
00:42:39
Speaker
And so this, when you do get that, it's a quite a very exciting experience. Yeah. It could be the basis of like, you know, a deeper relationship, you know, no matter the context could be workplace, you know, friendship, romantic, and what otherwise super important.
00:42:55
Speaker
Yeah. Wow. Well, thank you so much for sharing that. That's just provided a lot of really rich insight, um you know, in terms of your story, but then also um sure for others as well to to but just be a lot more aware, not necessarily just about pronouns, but just in general, like when are we kind of jumping to conclusions rather than providing space for somebody to show up for who they actually are?
00:43:21
Speaker
And to be interested in that and, you know, providing a safe place for somebody to surface that. So, yeah. um So I'm just thinking of a few other kind of final questions just to to wrap things up here. But I guess the one thing, you know, going forward, just thinking about you know, non-binary awareness in general. And, you know, there's steps being taken to increase that awareness.
00:43:52
Speaker
But I'm just wondering, you know, we're headed in, we're 2025 now and kind of looking ahead, you know, what else is needed? um of course, there's so much. so it's kind of an unfair question. like yeah the The list is unfurled. but ah But yeah, I'm just, like to some degree right now, at least in the way that I see it, it's somewhat performative.
00:44:17
Speaker
um And I think part of it is because i think people are afraid of making mistakes. This feels like, you know, for some folks, this is new. And so um I do this when something is new, I revert to the most basic, simplest thing so that I'll be guaranteed that I won't be wrong or, you know, less wrong.
00:44:38
Speaker
And so, yeah, how do we shift out of that performativity and um just looking ahead to, you know, kind of that brighter future that many of us are working towards?
00:44:50
Speaker
What are your thoughts on that? I think maybe this isn't a good answer, but I think that it probably starts with ourselves.
00:45:01
Speaker
And it goes going back to that study that I mentioned, the idea that you're watching a group of people plunging their hands into ice water and that these participants own hands lowered just by watching that really speaks to the the connection and the empathy that is embedded in humans,
00:45:20
Speaker
dna And that's the reason that we like listening to ah podcast of two friends laughing, even though we don't know the joke and we don't know those people it's because connection is just a part of our lives.
00:45:33
Speaker
And so if we can connect with ourselves and understand ourselves and understand the way that our society has built gender and what messaging we've received that has, taught us about who we are and maybe that fits and maybe it doesn't fit. And maybe we can undo the bits that don't fit and we can pick the bits that do fit and actually get to know ourselves, really get to know ourselves. I don't think that we make room for knowing who we are in our society.
00:45:58
Speaker
So if you can start there, i think you will find it a lot easier than to understand and connect with non-binary people and trans people more widely. Mm-hmm.
00:46:09
Speaker
Does that answer that question? Well, yeah, absolutely. And perhaps for some in a surprising twist, because you're right that many times when they're, i i talk about trans and non-binary folks as this mystical other, right? Some people think we're kind of this mysterious, like, whoa, what's going on here?
00:46:29
Speaker
um And so there can be a lot of focus, like tell me everything so I can fully absorb and understand and I mean, I understand that ah yeah impulse.
00:46:40
Speaker
um It's not coming from a bad place at all. In fact, that there is ah an aspect of a bid for connection there too. However, you're right that also a part of the equation is the you know connection to oneself.
00:46:55
Speaker
And depending on how that's going, you we may or may not be able to accept others to or to have that understanding. Because you're right, everybody has some aspects that align with societal expectations. And then there are other aspects not related to gender necessarily that don't align.
00:47:14
Speaker
And we kind of cleave off parts of ourselves to fit these narrow molds and do great damage to ourselves. And we all deserve to be full human beings.
00:47:27
Speaker
and That includes you know trans and non-binary folks, it includes cisgender folks, and the degree to which one is connected to oneself makes it easier to connect with others, including non-binary folks in a way that don't have to know everything to accept everything. right i think that's another big answer to that, though, is to understand that You don't actually need to know anything at all other than what I've told you about myself.
00:47:52
Speaker
That's all it really takes. And I think we can all benefit from connecting with ourselves. And maybe that would make us more free to accept others for who they say they are and not who you think they should be.
00:48:06
Speaker
Yes, absolutely. And with that, I think that's a powerful place to to end this. I'm sure we could keep going because there's so much more than this, but I think it's ah it's a really important ah place to have that greater understanding.
00:48:24
Speaker
And thank you so much again for sharing your story. I mean, it takes ah a lot of vulnerability to open up and in the way that you have. And It's a very powerful model, hopefully to others, to to share, you know, of course, when they feel safe and ready to do so.
Conclusion and Resources
00:48:40
Speaker
um But, the you know, your presence with yourself is very inspiring. You know, I've heard what you shared, and I just i found that very profound.
00:48:51
Speaker
especially people have an easier time perhaps when things and are one way but when there's multiplicity when there's no model for it I think there's a lot of difficulty there and and the fact that you're able to really stay present with yourself to understand yourself is it's very powerful so thank you for sharing that thanks Kai and Yeah, well, I've really enjoyed this conversation with you.
00:49:18
Speaker
Also, before we go, i want to mention that in the show notes, we're going to put a ah link to a resource on non-binary people and identities. And basically, we'll give you a little bit more information about terms and concepts. So you know, of course, we talked about gender fluidity here today, ah but there's other identities, agender, genderqueer,
00:49:38
Speaker
underneath this bigger umbrella of non-binary identities. We'll talk about everyday interactions and how to be inclusive and supportive of non-binary folks. And so hopefully just equip you with the tools ah necessary to be a great ally of non-binary folks. So definitely check it out and super interested and hopefully it's really helpful to you.
00:50:01
Speaker
Thank you so much again. And we'll close it out here for now. So goodbye. you