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00:00:01
Is Inclusion Being Forced on Us?
20 Plays1 month ago
Many people say inclusion is being “forced” on them - but is it really?
In this episode of Gender in Focus, we unpack the difference between 'feeling' forced to change and 'actually' being forced, and why that distinction matters for building lasting, meaningful progress in workplaces and beyond.
We explore what makes change feel like an invitation rather than an imposition, and how leaders can move forward without overwhelming people - or slowing things down. Along the way, we examine how perception shapes resistance and what sustainable, low-friction change really looks like in practice.
From pronoun use to all-gender washrooms, we discuss how initial discomfort often fades once people gain real experience - and how persistence, communication, and empathy are essential to bringing everyone along.
Whether you’re leading diversity and inclusion initiatives, supporting trans and non-binary colleagues, or navigating cultural change within your organization, this episode offers grounded, practical insight into how to balance compassion with accountability.
Key themes: sustainable change, inclusion fatigue, psychological safety, inclusive leadership, trans and non-binary inclusion, allyship, organizational culture, and managing resistance.
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Transcript
Introduction to 'Gender in Focus' with Kai Scott
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm El and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
I have heard of instances where cisgender people are kind of giving other cisgender people a hard time for not sharing their pronouns. And we really need to stop with that because unfortunately that pushes pushes people past their breaking point.
00:00:31
Speaker
I find it really interesting the way that people interpret someone suggesting something as being forced. And really, I think what they mean is I'm witnessing somebody say something that I'm not comfortable with.
Challenges of Mandated Pronoun Sharing
00:00:53
Speaker
Everyone wants progress until it feels pushed on them. When it comes to trans inclusion, some people say these issues are being crammed down their throats, in air quotes, when in reality the goal is opposite, expanding options and creating more choice, not less.
00:01:10
Speaker
Yet even with well-intentioned actions like mandating, pronoun sharing, or making every washroom all gender can spark backlash if people aren't ready. In this episode, we explore the fine line between advancing equity and overwhelming others and how to move forward in ways that invite understanding instead of resistance.
00:01:30
Speaker
And I'm joined once again El who was gonna we're going to work on unpacking this issue together. It's a very complex one. How are you doing? I'm doing so great.
00:01:41
Speaker
How are you? I'm doing great too. Yeah. Okay. This one is a topic that I find a little bit frustrating. So i'm going to try and be on my best behavior with this, but I want to start with what the difference is between people feeling like change is being forced upon them yeah and change actually being forced and like where that difference lies.
00:02:05
Speaker
That's a good one. That's a good question to start with. I mean, I will just speak from my own experience, right? um Because that's often a good starting point is to understand what's the difference between somebody kind of pushing something on me, no matter the topic, and what is kind of a genuine invitation that maybe initially is uncomfortable But eventually when I explore it opens up into this whole other world that maybe I knew little about or nothing about.
00:02:37
Speaker
And it's actually a good thing. And. Um, you know, oftentimes it's about how somebody is asking the question that can give you some clue, although it's not the only one because sometimes people kind of over, like they over expect people to be this like perfectly patient person. Not everybody should be or have to do that to be able to be understood.
00:03:02
Speaker
um Sometimes people are frustrated and that's a legitimate frustration given what they're trying to address. um Yeah, so it's the the how, it's what somebody is asking about and to the degree that I am able to do something at that red hot moment.
00:03:19
Speaker
or maybe a little bit later, once I've, you know, kind of sorted myself out, right, is like how much space is provided for me to get up to speed. So that aspect of the equation.
00:03:31
Speaker
And then probably a third piece for me is what kinds of supports are provided um as well. As you know, especially if something is new to me, or others, there's just a little bit more that is needed to bring people along.
00:03:47
Speaker
So are those aspects provided? And if not, if I ask for them, is that something that somebody can help me with, right? Or direct me somewhere else, or you know, whatever the case may be.
00:03:58
Speaker
So those are some of the kind of key features of what I could see as the difference between kind of being forced to do something just because somebody like thinks this is the way and kind of my way or the highway versus like indications that people want to help and are there to help to the extent that they can and have put things in place and kind of how they're asking.
Perception in Inclusion Conversations
00:04:24
Speaker
When it comes to conversations about inclusion, Why is like perception so important? Why does that matter with that? Yes.
00:04:35
Speaker
So perception is ah is a ah tricky one because things can feel very real and not be the case. And that's kind of mind playing tricks sometimes.
00:04:49
Speaker
Right. That can be at play, especially with an inclusion where somebody's initial response is very strong and perhaps resistant or questioning or, you know, whatever other reaction, ah strong reaction.
00:05:05
Speaker
And but that when you look a little bit further, you realize, oh, it's not as kind of scary or big or that much is different from other things. But it does require that little extra effort to be able to kind of piece that all together.
00:05:19
Speaker
um And so some perceptions can indicate that whatever is being asked or people are invited to when it comes to say gender diversity is like too far or somehow threatening when actually there's not that much threatening to it. It's people asking for pretty basic things.
00:05:40
Speaker
Think about using the proper pronouns. Like this is not like this huge difference. Like everybody else is afforded that, but somehow trans and non-binary folks are kind of left out.
00:05:51
Speaker
with regards to the pronoun thing, like you're not actually affected in any way at all. But like sometimes we're like I'll see this, especially because I do the social media stuff um for Transfocus.
00:06:03
Speaker
I see it a lot um in the comment sections about like forcing people to do something. And it's like, ah you would use a pronoun regardless. So you may as well just use the one that, the other person wants ah like it it doesn't actually do anything to you you're not going to come out in a rash because you've been respectful like you're okay right indeed yeah it it doesn't have like a huge material consequence ah to that person's life and it makes a huge difference on the other end right but because so often there's ah kind of mistreatment of trans trans and non-binary folks related to their pronouns like yeah so with that ah there is a bit of a sort of um
00:06:51
Speaker
balance that's needed when it comes to making progress that is actually progress and not just, I don't know, sort of a little token here
Balancing Inclusion and Comfort Levels
00:07:00
Speaker
and there. So a genuine progress, but also recognizing where we're at and what, what the comfort levels are of the people around us. And so how do we navigate that balance?
00:07:12
Speaker
Yeah. The people may be at different levels of readiness to either partially or even fully participate in what we've kind of laid out. Right. And we of course don't want kind of a performative aspect where it's like, I don't quite understand this, but I'm going to go along. Cause I don't want people to be mad at me.
00:07:32
Speaker
And, um, or people think I'm a bad person. and so sure I'll do it. But if you can get a sense that people are kind of being dragged along, uh, and certainly um,
00:07:46
Speaker
maybe even many trans and non-binary folks can feel the difference between is this person just doing because they were told to or that they actually understand and and think that it's important to do this thing.
00:07:59
Speaker
um And or, you know, people might have quiet conversations amongst themselves to be like, I don't get it, or I think this is not the way to do it and um and whatnot. And it's not to say that there isn't a discussion about some aspects, right, of changes.
00:08:14
Speaker
ah Certainly, if you think about designing, you say, a space, if it's a washroom, like you want to think through the design and may have to tweak it based on who's there and what the needs are.
00:08:26
Speaker
ah But that you're always thinking about it from an inclusion standpoint, not like barring people from access, but like, how do we make access possible? um Not just on gender diversity more broadly also.
00:08:38
Speaker
So um yeah, I think it is important if people have different levels or abilities or capacities to kind of come along on a change, I think it is important for people to be honest, to say, I'm stuck here, you know?
00:08:55
Speaker
And I don't think many people would fault folks for just being, be like, I want to be further along, but this is kind of where I'm at. And um figuring out how And they want to take the next steps, right? And you mean don't always have to lean on trans and non-binary folks for the next steps.
00:09:14
Speaker
But are there other people that you can go and talk to, to sort this out, to see maybe there's something I'm missing or that I can glean from others who are trying to be allies to get to the next level?
00:09:27
Speaker
I would also say too that just because somebody isn't ready doesn't mean that we don't advance, right? We can't always just go to the the lowest bar. um So there has to be kind of twofold spaces created where it's like, okay, how do we help people who are stuck or who need extra support or whatnot? So that's legit.
00:09:50
Speaker
That's genuine. And I think that's important, but then also continue to go forward with those who are ready and who do have capacity because they do exist. Right. And so those can kind of run in parallel until at such point as people feel ready, they can connect up with the change that's happening.
00:10:08
Speaker
So I think in that way, we can serve multiple needs in a genuine, honest way while also still continuing. Right. Mm-hmm.
Impact of Prioritizing Comfort on Progress
00:10:18
Speaker
And on that then, how, like, at what point does prioritizing people's comfort start to hold back the change that is necessary?
00:10:30
Speaker
Yes, that happens a lot and in the work that we do, unfortunately. um And I do have a space for you know, people who need more time.
00:10:41
Speaker
Like it's not yeah that, but its it's just unfortunate that people who have reservations um can slow things down or in some cases can stop something from happening altogether.
00:10:56
Speaker
and they may not realize the power that they have in a group. Oftentimes they're seeing themselves as the victim versus the fact they may not be able to see that their thought is usually with other people that create that momentum towards something not happening, which actually materially impacts trans and non-binary folks.
00:11:19
Speaker
And so what to do about that um is to provide spaces for people to ask questions or, um you know, i I find surveys to be really important because people can voice what's going on. Because I find if you don't have an avenue to express that, eventually it will channel into something not happening.
00:11:42
Speaker
So what are those avenues, especially probably needing a bit more information ways to be anonymous because people can feel self-conscious, but just some way of knowing what's happening kind of beneath the surface, I think is important.
00:11:56
Speaker
ah And then to figure out how to talk to people who information. um more time um without it detracting from the way forward.
00:12:09
Speaker
um And also for organizations to realize that um usually people have an initial response and then will change. And once something is implemented, kind of have the real experience of it to realize, oh, it wasn't actually such a big deal, you know, like all gender multi stall washrooms is a perfect example. Yeah.
00:12:34
Speaker
There's so many organizations where we implement it not 100%, just in food places. ah People have their there are kind of misgivings about it. And um i understand some of them.
00:12:46
Speaker
um But ah when they're implemented, because they're designed very differently, people experience them and are like, oh, this is really comfortable. Oh, I actually feel really safe. Oh, we get to collectively monitor.
00:12:59
Speaker
Oh, I have my own sink in my own stall. You know, like there's all these different things that they didn't expect. And suddenly they're like, these are the best washrooms. What was I thinking before, right? So making sure organizations allow for opportunity to change for people who are pumping the brakes and not kind of pigeonholing them to always pumping the brakes.
00:13:20
Speaker
Like they can actually... feel a bit of you know, hesitance, ah come along for the journey, learn, expand, grow, and perhaps they might think differently once it's there, right?
00:13:35
Speaker
And they also have the option if they don't feel comfortable to use a men's or women's, right? Like that is important as well. how can pushing people like on that kind of finding that balance, pushing people past their level of comfort or sort of where they are in their understanding can, can sometimes backfire.
00:13:57
Speaker
Like there's that balance of ah people realizing that it that it's actually okay, but then for some people it is actually just a bit too far. So ah yeah, how can, what can that look like?
Backlash from Rapid Changes
00:14:06
Speaker
yeah Yeah, I mean, there are moments where the the rate of change feels too fast for a lot of folks.
00:14:16
Speaker
And that can happen in a number of different groups within society, especially when it comes to trans and non-binary folks. it To them, it feels new, even though you know trans and non-binary folks have existed, but usually in the shadows. And so it kind of feels very disconcerting to them. And if something is too far too fast, then the resistance kind of becomes something else. And um you know things can be totally shut down um and never to be spoken of of again, right? Like that kind of shutting down.
00:14:53
Speaker
And, you know, it is important to be able for folks to share what's going on for themselves, right? So that we hopefully don't get to that kind of breaking point.
00:15:06
Speaker
Because it is important for these types of changes to occur. Exactly how i think is important for many different people to come together to talk about to make that possible.
00:15:18
Speaker
you know Certain things can you know pretty consistently be addressed within organizations in a similar manner. Others, I think, are a little bit more context specific and do require some sorting out of details. right So the more people that you can evolve in that process you know as early as possible can give them some sort of ownership or buy-in into that process. right So they don't feel like it's being put on them.
00:15:48
Speaker
It's that they were contributing factor to making this possible. And, you can have a degree of pride in it, you know, like, we sorted out this thing. And yeah, we had to maybe kind of um wrestle with some complex matters. But at the other end ah coming out the other end like i get where we got to and i maybe support a lot or most of it and maybe even a bit excited right rather than okay something happened in a black box and then suddenly much to everybody's surprise that this is a completely the different direction that we're going in and i had no idea how people came to that decision
00:16:29
Speaker
um you know Some organizations don't even announce it and people find it that has changed and they're like, what the heck is this? you know And that can create a lot of upset. So the the degree to which an organization involves people in the process of change communicates that change in an accessible way.
00:16:51
Speaker
So not overly complex and convoluted. I tend to, when I'm explaining changes, say on washrooms and change rooms, make it broader. It's not just about trans people.
00:17:02
Speaker
Maybe trans people are driving reason for it, but it actually benefits, you know, and so many other groups. And outlining those so that people can um connect with some sort of benefit, I think really helps to bring people on. Yeah.
00:17:18
Speaker
it's always allowing people to opt in to the new thing. So it's never something that they are forced to do. do And this is something we reiterate a lot in all of our education or in any communications that we
Promoting Voluntary Participation and Diverse Options
00:17:34
Speaker
support with when there's a change being made is that people can continue to do the old way for themselves, totally fine.
00:17:44
Speaker
um you know like For example, we're not forcing people to provide their pronouns. like that Whether it's a cisgender person or a trans person, it's just not a good thing. Let's not do that.
00:17:54
Speaker
It's the options available if people want to. like It seems pretty straightforward, but I have heard of instances where cisgender people are kind of giving other cisgender people a hard time for not sharing their pronouns.
00:18:09
Speaker
And we really need to stop with that because unfortunately that pushes, pushes people past their breaking point. And then the people that they, you know, take that anger and frustration out on is on trans and non-binary folks. So it's a good intention, but it's, it's gone off base in a way that has implications.
00:18:28
Speaker
And so think making sure everything is voluntary is super important. Now, of course, If somebody has shared a pronoun and you refuse to use it, that's not what I'm talking about in terms of voluntary. Like that is necessary for some someone to respect somebody.
00:18:45
Speaker
But I'm saying things like if you, you know, say a washroom, yes, it's great to have all gender multi-stall as an option, but we still also need to have pronouns.
00:18:56
Speaker
men's and women's spaces for folks who need and want those spaces. So we're not forcing them into the all gender multi stall. Now, I think single unit washrooms would solve this whole thing.
00:19:06
Speaker
But unfortunately, they cost more money and take up a lot of space. So not always possible if you need a large set of washrooms. So but there you have it. I really want to talk about this, about well-intentioned allies, um because I think this is so important that the actions of an ally can feel forceful and lead to pushback. And as you just said, that it's interpreted as trans and non-binary people doing that forceful action, not the cisgender person because it's about the trans and
Impact of Overzealous Allies
00:19:43
Speaker
non-binary people. So but can you can you go into that a bit further? Because I think that's like, and i I know a lot of people who, and I definitely know this myself, who would fall into this.
00:19:52
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And coming from a really good place, right? Wanting to be active. they's They're like, you've told we should be active. And I'm like, absolutely. And there's like the the overzealous version of active that can unfortunately cause harm, even if unintentional.
00:20:10
Speaker
But yeah, so when we are going a bit too strong on a particular thing and really almost to the extent of forcing somebody to do something and when they're not ready to do it or don't understand it or are somewhere else, and they um often misinterpret that pressure um to be something that the trans and non-binary folks are forcing on them.
00:20:38
Speaker
right So they don't see the cisgender person as having forced them. They see the trans and non-binary folks as having created this condition under which this person is now suffering. right um Versus it's you know the cisgender person trying to do their best, but perhaps you know being off base.
00:20:56
Speaker
off base And so unfortunately, when that cisgender person, they will not do the thing that we asked them to do, sadly. yeah Surprise.
00:21:07
Speaker
um And then secondarily, when they encounter a trans or non-binary person, they will take that out on them. um because they're misunderstanding the situation and think that the trans people are ultimately at fault for what's happening, that this person forced me um and, you know, and why are you requiring this? And then the trans person is like, I didn't force anybody to do anything, right?
00:21:33
Speaker
I'm just trying to live my life here. I've asked folks to use this pronoun, you know, like, so... yeah It's really important to think about the ways in which as allies we're approaching folks who maybe are at at the beginning of their journey of understanding and um coming with kind of a supportive and reassuring, even if firm, like this is important, right?
00:21:57
Speaker
And but kind of being able to continuously check in and to to be involved in that person's journey, um but not in a way where we're forcing something on them, especially when they're not ready.
00:22:10
Speaker
What does sustainable lasting change look like? and like that that doesn't rely on forcing people, but it's still just gradually progresses forward all the same?
00:22:21
Speaker
What does that look like overall?
Driving Lasting Changes with Persistence
00:22:24
Speaker
Yeah. That's a also another million dollar question. How do we do this? Yeah.
00:22:34
Speaker
I think it's just a the key word is persistence, right? um Any change can be difficult, especially in moments and maybe throughout.
00:22:46
Speaker
um but that there's a continuous effort to keep taking the next step. Even if maybe there's not full clarity, like sometimes organizations really want full clarity before advancing, but maybe that's not possible.
00:22:59
Speaker
And yet still taking that next step and the step after that. And, um you know, that the communications aspect being so important, right? always explaining why and what, why and what, why and what. Just like maybe it feels like on repeat, but in a way that at some point lands for many, if not all of the the folks involved and um and kind of being committed to that change rather than we'll maybe consider the change if everybody's on board, right? Like that's kind of backwards in my mind. It's like, no, we'll commit to the change.
00:23:37
Speaker
and then commit to making that a collaborative thing. um right And then and we'll communicate along the way and and we'll try to bring people along and and whatnot. So that can often make a huge difference.
00:23:50
Speaker
um But the sustainability also means you know dedicating resources to it as well. Some of it costs, some of it doesn't, right? So it's not always about resources.
00:24:03
Speaker
But certainly making sure that there's enough to sustain. Some changes take years. So making sure there's enough to sustain those types of changes, um whether on gender diversity or more broadly.
00:24:16
Speaker
So that can often help. um Or those are some of the things that can help with sustainability. I want to ask you about your own experiences with seeing forcing change or not like what you've seen or what you've experienced.
00:24:32
Speaker
think where I've come to my approach to change comes from a very personal place. I've done a lot of, I've tried many different approaches to change and some of them are a little more forceful, especially in my twenties.
00:24:51
Speaker
Maybe people can relate where like, this change needs to happen now, yesterday actually, and chop chop, let's get to it, you know? And Surprisingly, people don't respond to that. Like, what?
00:25:05
Speaker
Including members my own family. I'm just shocked, right? Right, staggering. I mean, I joke in some respects. And of course, some of these changes are important, right? And so i there were moments of deep frustration when they weren't happening and but painful and sometimes too, right? So i do want to acknowledge this side that kind of really desires long-term um deep change that is not coming right now.
00:25:34
Speaker
And ah then I also recognize kind of the other side um where if it's too fast um and too unknown to somebody um that they will dig in.
00:25:48
Speaker
And I've had you know personal experiences of that. And it's not until I let go of the desired outcome and be like, okay, I'm willing to go on a journey with this person. So I took a more relational approach to maybe not change because I let go of the concept of change, but I was like, what is possible between the two of us given our worldviews, our approaches to life? you know ah Where's the overlap?
00:26:20
Speaker
Where can we work together where maybe there's not overlap and maybe it's just we... that's not a place we can um generally agree and maybe that's okay, you know, or maybe it's not okay.
00:26:33
Speaker
Then maybe i need to take a step back. Right. So just trying to figure it out. um And that has generally been a lot more fruitful and a lot more interesting too, because then I'm connecting with folks and we're co-creating something rather than me being like, I have the answer and this is how it's going to go.
00:26:53
Speaker
And yeah, Also allowing people to step up in their own way for me too, right? It's not like I'm just a doormat and everybody does what they will, right? Like that didn't actually end up happening, surprisingly. So, yeah.
00:27:08
Speaker
Yeah, and that makes sense. I really love that the way that you said about taking a relational approach. And like, I think one of the things that can sometimes get lost in this is that for the most part, and obviously not everybody, but for the most part, most people are trying to do their best and are trying to do the right thing in the way that they think is right. And maybe that's not aligned with the way you think things are right. But generally that's what people want and actually when you look at it that way you both want the same thing and so if you both want the same thing there is a way most of the time not always but there is a way to bridge the gap somewhere and if you just take your time you don't need to have it all figured out straight away so no no no you'll figure it out together um yeah and of course
00:27:58
Speaker
You know, within a family context versus friends versus workplace, there are different things at play that make it more or less difficult to do the relational approach. Right. house yeah So it's not maybe an answer for everything, but.
00:28:13
Speaker
there i think I have room to be surprised and pleasantly surprised at that sometimes with folks that I didn't expect or and didn't see as maybe having the capacity to be supportive, but given enough time, space, and you know whether it's together in conversations with each other or they have their own separate conversations together,
00:28:39
Speaker
Some of them, I would have been surprised that they ever get to a ah supportive place, but it helps them, right? So it's just, yeah, allowing people to have their own journey and, you know, I'll be a smart part of it or sometimes big, bigger, but yeah, that can be helpful.
00:28:58
Speaker
I see a lot of comments on social media about this and how people interpret um pretty much everything that I post on social media as ah forcing.
00:29:09
Speaker
there's There's usually at least once a week we'll we'll get a sort of comment like that. And I find it really interesting because at no point have I ever written something like that on social media and you would not approve it if I had. so i i find it really interesting the way that people interpret someone suggesting something as being forced.
00:29:33
Speaker
And really, I think what they mean is I'm witnessing somebody say something that I'm not comfortable with. and And that's the difference is that witnessing somebody asking for something isn't the same as being forced to do it.
00:29:48
Speaker
And I think it is important for for folks to know that we do get a steady stream of responses to lot of things that we put out there. And some of it doesn't, at least for me, feel very controversial.
00:30:02
Speaker
It's pretty small stuff too, right? And some of the other comments are like, why are you even talking about this? It's so small. I'm like, okay. This We're definitely the ethos that we have at TransFocus in general is offering, right? We're consistently inviting, offering.
00:30:20
Speaker
These are options to consider. We recognize there's a lot to balance in various decision making for especially organizations. um So the fact that people misinterpret is is surprising, but also probably haven't spent a lot of time looking deeply into what we're talking about too.
00:30:41
Speaker
Yes. But it is something that we we do navigate and it does give us some insight as to where folks are at um and and not necessarily ready yet.
00:30:53
Speaker
always put some but potential for them to change in there, but that, yeah, they're not ready yet to to see what we're <unk>re saying, what we're pointing to, what the options are.
00:31:05
Speaker
And I'm actually more interested, rather than people kind of being grumpy, you should characterize them as such, is people offering other options.
00:31:18
Speaker
Like for me, i'm I'm more interested in generating ideas because some of these are complex and you know how are we going to deal with these in ways that everyone can feel included.
00:31:29
Speaker
um and that's like, yeah. So if people have count, if they counter with other ideas, not just the status quo, um, then that would be really fascinating. But, uh, unfortunately some people are not quite there yet.
00:31:44
Speaker
No, I think a lot of the comments that we get on social media tend to be it. Well, my interpretation of it is that people have an idea in their head of what trans people are like and what they're doing.
00:31:56
Speaker
And then, even if you could put something entirely rational and because you've said it from the perspective of a trans person, it is dismissed. And I think that's what I would love to see is maybe just seeing it for what it is and not for what you think it is.
00:32:14
Speaker
Does that make sense? yeah Like just being able to broaden that a little bit and see like, okay, this is coming from somebody I don't agree with, but what are they actually saying? Like if I can look past the the individual almost.
00:32:27
Speaker
Yeah. And engaging with the idea directly. And, you know, you don't have to take everything, but, you know, there's going to be valuable aspects. Right. Even if you don't agree with them. like and And the thing is that that's typically what I try to do with people I don't agree with, even on the issues of gender diversity.
00:32:49
Speaker
And that is often not, that type of approach is not extended our way. So it is. I'm for me sometimes sad, right? Cause then we can, it's more difficult path, but um yeah, who knows?
00:33:03
Speaker
maybe Maybe things will change, but yeah, you're that is a a very interesting way of putting it. And at least to me, accurate, we're just already preconceived, like no matter how we say it,
00:33:18
Speaker
do it, nothing would kind of deter somebody who is just kind of paints all trans people with the same brush. Yeah.
00:33:29
Speaker
Interesting stuff though. But this ah is a good topic to to kind of think through and yeah, curious what we'll hear from folks and curious to hear your thoughts and and comments and perhaps things to add that we didn't talk about, about how to make more sustainable kind of low or no resistance change if that's possible.
00:33:50
Speaker
Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It was good to to talk this through. Thank you so much. See you later. Bye for now. Bye. Bye.