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Trans Inclusion Starts with Workplace Culture
22 Plays2 months ago
How does trans inclusion in the workplace take root? It starts with culture. Everyday actions - by managers and frontline staff - shape trans and non-binary employees’ experiences and set the tone for inclusion.
From using gender-inclusive language and addressing micro-aggressions to fostering respectful team dynamics and proactively supporting colleagues, this episode of Gender in Focus shares clear, doable ways to make inclusion part of daily work life.
We also look at how culture and structure work together - why policies, forms, and systems need to align with inclusive values - and how small actions can add up to lasting change.
Whether you’re a manager, a frontline worker, or someone passionate about advancing trans inclusion at work, tune in for insights you can put into practice to help create workplaces where trans and non-binary employees feel safe, valued and able to thrive.
To Learn more about the Practice Pods mentioned in this episode, check the link here: https://www.transfocus.ca/dialogue
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Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
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Transcript
Introduction to Gender in Focus Podcast
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm El and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
We've been into so many different workplaces and companies and you can really tell right away, you know, where things are at, right? and what kinds of values are are promoted and you know, what they've already done to kind of create the environment in terms of my own coming out as non-binary and how nervous I was before. I obviously worked for Trans Focus and and i could guarantee that it would be accepted. So I can really only imagine what that must be like if you weren't 100% sure of the reception that you would get.
Defining Inclusive Culture
00:01:01
Speaker
In today's episode, we're talking about inclusive culture and what it takes to support trans and non-binary employees in the workplace. That means having disclosure guidelines in place before anyone comes out or creating inclusive environments even if you don't know that there's a trans coworker in your presence, and balancing culture with structural changes as well, and making sure they're woven together.
00:01:27
Speaker
Culture is easy to notice, and structure like policies and practices make it stick. And inclusion isn't a one-time switch, it's a community of practice built on constant reinforcement and dialogue. And I'm really excited to talk about this and unpack it further with my colleague El, El are you doing?
00:01:47
Speaker
I'm doing very well, Kai. How are you doing? It's September. You're feeling fresh, ready to go. That's right. And with distant memories of ah backpacking in the Alpine. Right.
00:02:00
Speaker
Yes, I'm here for it. I'm ready to shift gears. Good. I'm glad. Well, I suppose I should start with the obvious question, which is what do we mean by inclusive culture,
Embracing All Genders in Inclusive Culture
00:02:11
Speaker
Kai? Because that feels very broad.
00:02:13
Speaker
Yes, indeed. And we're we're all striving for it and sometimes it's hard to kind of pin it down. ah There's many different features of inclusive culture and this is, you know, in more broad equity, diversity and inclusion conversations.
00:02:30
Speaker
but I'll make try to make it specific to gender diversity in that it is a culture that is welcoming of all or any genders across the gender spectrum.
00:02:42
Speaker
There's an understanding and appreciation, even celebration of folks and their various unique gifts and what they contribute and kind of um not necessarily calling upon them, but open to them and inviting of them um to to be a part of the workplace.
00:02:59
Speaker
There are practical considerations when, you know, interacting with somebody, especially if we don't know that person. So wanting to have, you know, um a kind of attuned to and understanding ah to be open to, you know, um what that person's pronouns are or what their gender is. um And even being responsive to somebody sharing updates about who they are as well and and being aware of the issues so that if things come up,
00:03:30
Speaker
um whether it's a joke or an appropriate comment that people can step in and intervene. So these are some of the features of that culture, but there's kind of an openness, a curiosity, ah desire to work together to understand one another, even if maybe that doesn't understanding isn't there right away, that kind of committed to continuing to dialogue, to be able to reach that understanding.
00:03:54
Speaker
And ah to be supportive of folks, especially if there are moments where either somebody is not there to defend themselves or um it's just too tired ah to to step up.
Roles in Creating Inclusive Culture
00:04:05
Speaker
And those are some of the aspects of ah of an inclusive culture.
00:04:10
Speaker
So it's sort of looking like Uber allyship then, like a sort community allyship. I mean, it doesn't always have to be action oriented, right? i yeah I mean, of course, we're inclined towards action, in especially in the West, ah but it there is like um an essence of it as well, where you know people can just be themselves um and don't have to do a lot of effort to make space for themselves or it's just like this kind of get to be rather than, you know, have to push for or defend or, you know, correct and in all that.
00:04:52
Speaker
So obviously what you've just painted out is the ideal scenario. That's what everybody's hoping that they can create at work or at least people who are interested in this work. So where do we begin when it comes to starting that and kind of creating that culture?
00:05:05
Speaker
um there's ah There's sort of two areas that I want to look at, which would be first the role of the individual and then also the role of management. It's sort of, hang on, wait, they're both individuals, but do you know what i mean?
00:05:20
Speaker
Yes, like the frontline worker versus leadership. Right. Guess who does not have corporate experience? ah Yes, that's what I want to talk about. So I guess maybe we should look at first the role of um sort of frontline workers and what that can look like.
00:05:39
Speaker
And we we have already got a couple of episodes on Allyship, which I'll link in the show notes. But yeah, could you go into that a bit with regards to inclusive cultures? Yeah, frontline workers are a big deal in my mind, at least. ah They're an essential part of creating culture and oftentimes either overlooked or underappreciated with that regard, right? Because it's Oftentimes, especially in certain industries, they're the ones interacting with clients and the public or, you know, whoever of outside of the organization and ah provide an important indication of the health of the culture, and whether it's kind of in this positive vein, living up to the values of the organization and bringing, you know,
00:06:27
Speaker
good products or services to to folks um and or, you know, are suffering if the culture isn't set up really well for them to thrive. And then often having to handle a lot of issues that really aren't theirs, but just because of how things are set up, they're not supported to to do their best with folks.
00:06:48
Speaker
And so They are often because they're interacting so much with folks outside and also within, um, they, ah can really exhibit that inclusive culture.
00:07:02
Speaker
Um, oftentimes in interactions, there's usually a lot of interacting. And so you know, that, especially if you don't know somebody, if it's a client that you're meeting for the first time or a member of the public,
00:07:16
Speaker
that's where those are the opportunities to practice, you know, gender inclusive language as an example where we're not jumping automatically to a conclusion of who that person is and, you know, what types of terms to apply to them.
00:07:30
Speaker
It's more of an open stance to be ready um to listen what that person is saying about themselves ah or just using um gender neutral terms as a placeholder until more is known, right?
00:07:43
Speaker
um When it comes to you know co-worker to co-worker on the frontline level, it's, it's more about, you know, respect and understanding and,
00:07:55
Speaker
working together to create something. um There's some benefits to productivity as well when people work together well. And um also, you know, we spend so much time at work too, right? You want it to be a pleasant experience.
00:08:12
Speaker
And so that's where, you know, that that collaboration is really key. And ah part of that is getting to know one another and you know, gender is a part of that among so many other factors. It's not the only one.
00:08:26
Speaker
um But then just being able to have those conversations in a respectful and considerate manner, right? Not asking too many questions, but not none because, you know, because that also might not send the right message. So, you know, this is this kind of process of getting to one know one another and working together in a productive way.
00:08:50
Speaker
So in comparison then to that, we've got the role of managers and you've mentioned a couple of times on the pod that, um, but ah managers are often really trying and really want to do the right thing but it is so hard to know what to do and not maybe youre not sure about what their role is or um what is for them to handle and what is for people to handle amongst themselves and so and and I'll link those episodes in the show notes too but I was wondering if you could dive into that in terms of yeah supporting this culture of inclusion yeah
00:09:21
Speaker
Yeah. Well, managers and leaders in general are super important. And I think most of them know that or recognize it is that they set the tone at the top. And often if um they're not kind of modeling themselves,
00:09:36
Speaker
particular behavior or ways of being or, you know, the appropriate approach, then, ah you know, frontline workers, you know, often make it make up their own thing or, you know, figure out their own way of doing things might not be quite what is right, or is what is called for in the moment.
Managerial Support for Trans and Non-Binary Employees
00:09:56
Speaker
And so that's where leadership, um you know, understanding on this topic of gender diversity, but so many other topics, super crucial. I do have a heart for managers as well. that There's a lot to know and to consider. And it's a very dynamic space along with just all the things that need to be done, right? As part of the work.
00:10:20
Speaker
But there's this added layer. um But certainly if you know, their understanding of the values that under the direction of the company and are, you know,
00:10:32
Speaker
sharing that with their teams or their reports. and And that's really crucial when it comes to knowing trans and non-binary folks. Even if there's not somebody on the team is important.
00:10:45
Speaker
I always just assume there's somebody and that's a helpful way for folks to then start to practice. And it's either, you know, it could be a preemptive way of bringing up these topics in you small little bite sizes ah to show that these are important topics. you know Trans Day of Remembrance is coming up in November, right? So there's these opportunities to, you know if it's on an annual basis or an article that somebody's read, to show that.
00:11:15
Speaker
Of course, if some somebody is on the team who is trans and non-binary, it's even more important for leaders to be looking out for issues and even to surface them with broad questions like, you know how are you doing at work um to the trans or non-binary person?
00:11:32
Speaker
um Or if that person is just coming out, there's specific roles for managers in that process. And so, um yeah, it's really important. Oftentimes, especially in court cases that we read, ah managers are often failing ah trans and non-binary folks, not through malice, mostly.
00:11:54
Speaker
It's just that they don't recognize that in some instances there's discrimination happening and that it's not just a difference of opinion between two people, a trans person and a cis person or a non-trans person.
00:12:07
Speaker
it's actually a really awful thing happening and that the manager needs to step in and work with the trans or non-binary person and the other person to resolve the issue. Otherwise it kind of escalates from there.
00:12:23
Speaker
So there's there's a lot of dynamics and issues that managers can come across whether or not they know somebody is trans on their teams.
00:12:34
Speaker
I actually was going to ask you a question about that and you jumped ahead and brought it up anyway, which was the idea that we don't have anyone who's trans on our team.
00:12:46
Speaker
yeah And so. creating these cultures or this culture of inclusion and especially having the conversations about trans and non-binary people, sometimes people will look at that and think it's not relevant to their team because there aren't any trans people in that. So I was wondering if you could go into that a bit more because of course that's not true and there probably is someone who's trans or there will be.
00:13:07
Speaker
It could be. There are folks, trans and non-binary folks who choose not to share that they are trans or non-binary. ah I think it's little bit more on the the trans men and women side of things, right? If they come out and um perhaps if it's ah if they need it, ah undergo some sort of medical or social transition, then they're done.
00:13:30
Speaker
They don't want to share it with other folks. So that you people could have, you know, somebody that they perceive as just a man or a woman ah without kind of knowing that history on their teams.
00:13:42
Speaker
And they don't need to share that. It's not a necessary piece of information. Although if somebody shares, that's great too, right? But just honoring that. So with that in mind, there's also another factor that that is actually probably a little bit more common is that you actually have a cisgender person who has a trans or non-binary loved one, right? It could be a child, it could be a partner, it could be, you know, what, what not, right?
00:14:10
Speaker
um And so just realizing how you talk about trans or non-binary issues, or whether you talk about it, is speaks volumes to any number of these people.
00:14:21
Speaker
And Another category of things I want to mention is somebody just before coming out. And that's actually the most critical because they're actively looking for signs of safety.
00:14:32
Speaker
And I would say the others too, but this is a more practical matter for the person just coming out. And so you really wanna be, you know, not constantly obviously, but just like and like every day have you thought about this? What about this?
00:14:52
Speaker
You know, just these moments of an opportunities, whether it's something in reaction to something or whether it's a proactive thing, ah can really help people understand that it's a safe place, that this is a manager or leader that's going to have my back, whether it's about to come out or i you know have a loved one that I'm worried about. um and And also helps educate cisgender folks who many people have don't even have the basics on gender diversity and and are really just looking for opportunities and finding
00:15:28
Speaker
none um and are often not in a place of doing their own research. So this is where managers and leaders can provide some of that heavy lift.
00:15:38
Speaker
um It's not even that heavy, but it just it ah it is a lift and that really speaks volumes. always think about this when in terms of my own coming out as non-binary and how nervous I was beforehand. I obviously worked for Trans Focus and would guarantee that I was going to be ah accepted and that it was an inclusive environment. I really knew that about Trans Focus and even then I was still super nervous to tell you. I don't know why I was so nervous but I was really nervous and um
00:16:09
Speaker
And that's when I could guarantee that it would be accepted. So I can really only imagine what that must be like if you weren't 100% sure of the reception that you would get, if you haven't already set up this culture of inclusion and where these topics of conversation are not constant, because that would also feel like a bit of a spotlight. I think I'd be a bit overwhelmed if it was a constant conversation, but if it is a conversation.
00:16:30
Speaker
um it would make that jump a little less steep, I think. um That's always how I imagine it. Or I felt like a flailing fledgling, like jumping off of a tree.
00:16:42
Speaker
And that was with Transfocus. Yeah. That's such a good point that, you know, it's it's about, you know, these moments that people are thinking about. that are weighing heavily on their hearts. And then, you know, if you're able to hear a positive message, even if it's brief, that that can help, you know, make that cliff a little smaller. It's still to be a cliff because yeah it's a big moment. There's a vulnerability to It's,
00:17:09
Speaker
um it's something that a lot of our culture has no framework for right like there's no pathway no rites of passage you know just like nothing and so it really is a big deal when people share that so yeah and to prepare for that any little signs can be really powerful And the fact that it was sort of bubbling under the surface. I started TransFocus a few months prior to coming out. well I think it was six months prior. yeah
00:17:40
Speaker
And so for six months, I was thinking like, should I, should I, should I? And that was even again in such a safe environment. So yeah, not knowing if somebody's trans doesn't guarantee that there isn't anybody that's trans on your team or trans and non-binary.
Impact of Company Culture on Trans Inclusion
00:17:56
Speaker
I wanted to ask you about how, um this isn't just about trans and non-binary people and issues related to that, but it's also about kind of wider culture and how just, if you if you haven't sorted out the wider culture, dropping in education about trans and non-binary people, it isn't going to work.
00:18:14
Speaker
It's not going to make your culture inclusive. So yeah, I wanted to get your perspective on on that. and And if you have any examples of that, I don't know if you do, but... Oh yeah. My goodness. It's so true.
00:18:25
Speaker
cause we've been into so many different workplaces and companies and you can really tell right away, you know, where things are at, right. And what kinds of values are, are promoted and, you know, um, what they've already done to kind of create the environment, uh,
00:18:46
Speaker
And or not right and it's just kind of happening willy nilly and and if we are coming in, I always like when we're coming into a place that is either already has an EDI framework or done some sort of other EDI work ah or.
00:19:03
Speaker
you know, even just has a strong set of values that they reiterate everywhere, right? That there's constantly reflecting on and thinking about and and itemizing too. It's not just like a general feel good, good vibes sesh, but like, actually, like, this is how I actioned the values, you know?
00:19:23
Speaker
And especially i look at the values, you know, of um inclusion or care, consideration, even respect, like just anything to signal that some social aspect has been thought of, right?
00:19:40
Speaker
And that makes a huge difference. um If you have a place a workplace culture, maybe not directly created this way, but that is super competitive, and then you bring in this type of session where we're asking folks to consider and understand and perhaps adapt some of their behaviors, that's not going to work too well.
00:20:03
Speaker
And might even accentuate that competitiveness and and and make it weirder, you know, rather than ah like a collaborative one, a collaborative culture,
00:20:16
Speaker
would be really easy to insert what we're sharing in education sessions or even creating a structural change. People are like gung ho to like figure it out and their solutions oriented. Like, let's do this, you know?
00:20:30
Speaker
So yeah, it just, if you haven't worked on your broader culture, going to be really difficult um or it's still possible. Just it's kind of cart before the horse and that can make it really difficult um to implement this.
00:20:46
Speaker
Still possible, but going to be um doing extra lifting to reinforce and to reiterate and make sure it sticks. with regards to preparing your workplace for trans inclusion, even when you don't know if somebody is trans or not, one of the topics that you mentioned at the beginning was also transition guidelines.
00:21:06
Speaker
And so I wanted to ask about that because um we've also mentioned them in other episodes, especially recruitment and having that available for but people who are looking to be hired. um So yeah, it's sort of a good indicator of how inclusive your culture is.
00:21:23
Speaker
So yeah, I was wondering if you could go into huh I mean, those those guidelines are really important. It's a bit of legwork that an organization undertakes before, or even if you have trans and non-binary folks, just to and sort out the details of what does support actually look like? And this is welcomed not just by trans and non-binary folks, but actually by cisgender folks, particularly managers who are like, oh, thank goodness.
00:21:53
Speaker
I just need some detail, anything, you know, just, you know, what do I do? How do support folks? And just spelling it out in a, what has been typically called a transition guideline, but we're starting to call them more like just, you know, how to support trans and non-binary folks in the workplace, toolkits, guidelines, whatever you want to call them.
00:22:15
Speaker
And essentially just kind of mapping out what, what trans and non-binary folks can ask for, what cis people can do to to be more supportive, um you know, some of the day-to-day pieces that maybe people wonder about or not sure and so are silent. And so instead of silence, they could be like, okay, now I know the nuances of you know, is it appropriate to ask questions? If so, what kind of questions, you know, just really spelling it out. um It might seem simple, but it actually is really helpful.
00:22:48
Speaker
And having that set of guidelines or a toolkit um available on the intranet, even publicly, that you can search for on somebody's website so that you can show that you've done this work because it is a bit of work because you have to kind of think through all the details, especially in the coming out process.
00:23:08
Speaker
um You know, there's a bit of insight that that presents to how ready are your systems for an employee, right? Yeah. so it's a readiness trick.
00:23:20
Speaker
And, you know, there's some bit of ah kind of aha moments that come from it, like, oh okay, our systems aren't ready. And how do we fix that? Right. So, you know, may take some time depending on what kind of systems or processes.
00:23:35
Speaker
And, but having that, for somebody who is applying to your company or is even within the company and maybe not going to come out or already out that signals a lot about how, how important this topic is that it's, um, you know, we're going to spend some time on it to do it right and, um, provide some education, you know, like just really do it well.
00:24:03
Speaker
And, It helps people understand that that this is a workplace that values them. Of course, not the only thing, but it's a big one because it's ah it's an effort to create something like that.
00:24:15
Speaker
You mentioned just then about making sure that the systems are ready and and having all of these other thoughts and ah things that maybe hadn't been considered. And that kind of leaks into the more structural side of things. And so I wanted to get you to talk about the relationship between the structural challenges and the ah cultural challenges and how you can't really have one without the other.
Addressing Cultural and Structural Challenges
00:24:39
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a big framing that we use at Transfocus is we do distinguish between cultural and structural. So, you know, how we interact with one another, team dynamics, the culture more broadly, all of that is kind of under the cultural banner or bucket.
00:24:57
Speaker
And then the structural side is systems. Do you have two first name field names? Are you collecting gender? Even washroom design within an office space.
00:25:09
Speaker
All of these are kind of the structural aspects that I mean, of course they need to operate together. So if you just have the cultural, people are amazing at interacting with trans and non-binary folks, that's awesome.
00:25:24
Speaker
And then somebody pivots to a forum and there's only two gender categories on it, the cultural stuff just kind of falls apart, sadly, right? Because this is a very important thing. It's not dismissing it in any regard.
00:25:37
Speaker
But it's just like, oh, but wait a second, these are at odds. I can't reconcile this amazing treatment with this crappy form. you know And so ah right that's where it's really critical to consider both. right And oftentimes companies are very focused on the cultural, which they should be, because humans, we're very social creatures and um you know we want to gel.
00:26:03
Speaker
And so that you want to square that way, but not to ignore or not look at the structural side of things where checking all of these different places where gender is sometimes kind of hidden away and can be a barrier for trans and non-binary folks. so And,
00:26:24
Speaker
you know, addressing those ah also requires a bit of a cultural aspect to it, right? You know, education, answering questions, you know revising scripts, you know, even the way we might navigate things might change too, right? If a washroom, you know, is perhaps converted to another type to make it more available to any gender, ah that might be ah bit of a cultural shift to be like, okay, right.
00:26:54
Speaker
This is no longer a men's or women's washroom. This is a single unit washroom or what whatever, right? um Or maybe even multi-stall, right? And so that kind of shift in thinking and um might need to be ah part of the mix. It's not, because sometimes what um companies do is they just change a structural thing and then don't tell people about right?
00:27:17
Speaker
Yeah. And they're like, what? And then sometimes they're upset, right? And so right if you add the cultural aspect, involve them, you know, educate on it, help them understand that the values are still intact, ah that can be really helpful.
Practicing Inclusivity Skills
00:27:35
Speaker
So on that, that kind of, uh, education and reinforcing the, the things that you're wanting to implement within a sort of workplace culture, um, you've talked to me before about creating this community of practice.
00:27:49
Speaker
And I was wondering if you could explain that a bit further. Yeah, this is so important. you know, we've observed that the education sessions that we deliver are really important and a foundational basis, uh,
00:28:04
Speaker
However, they're usually pretty theoretical in some sense because it's like, oh, okay, I understand logically what you're saying. But then and the devil's in the details in terms of how you do that.
00:28:17
Speaker
And so we found that kind of as a next step past, say, the basics or even intermediate level or some of the manager-specific training that we have,
00:28:28
Speaker
is a small group of practice to set aside some time and and work through either role play or you know talking about a scenario that somebody had experienced, has experienced and just unpacking that a bit and going into some of the nuances and maybe redoing some of that interaction to be able to have a different outcome um especially if maybe it wasn't the best ah thing that happened.
00:28:58
Speaker
Right. Also and opportunity to practice somebody coming out at work. You know, if we don't have an opportunity, sometimes we can be a bit deer in the headlights just because it it's new, right? Just like, whoa.
00:29:14
Speaker
and Versus actually my brain and my mouth have worked together to, you know, come up with words. ah that are authentic to me, that are my style, um but also encouraging and supportive and whatnot, and maybe doing a few iterations of that.
00:29:31
Speaker
um Another thing is, you know, the singular use of they, them is new to some or many actually, and not a lot of opportunity to practice that. So just, you know, using they, them for either an actual colleague or ah for for someone fictitious and just working through some of that kind of clunkiness that comes at first, but then smoothing it out.
00:29:58
Speaker
there's so many things that in this kind of small group, judgment-free, just, you know, um really there to to lean into what one has learned and make it come to life, I think is really key.
00:30:13
Speaker
When you've done those in in workplaces, how has the response been when you've done, what are they called? Practice pods? Is that right? Practice pods. Sorry, my mind went blank. I'm so sorry.
00:30:23
Speaker
i do work here. Yeah. What what are the the responses that you've had when you've been doing those practice pods? absolute relief. I think people, they're just so worried and there's like, they're like, they get this new knowledge, they're excited by it, but then also super intimidated.
00:30:41
Speaker
And so this, this opportunity, especially the judgment free aspect where it's a small group. So, you know, you're not just kind limited exposure to, you know, a bunch of different people.
00:30:54
Speaker
Um, And that everybody's there to do the same thing and recognizes that we're not going to get it 100%. And that's okay. That's part of the process. and And, of course, you know encouraging facilitation by myself and others. And that can really help bring down some of the high anxiety level.
00:31:14
Speaker
especially on something that has sadly become quite political and people are further distancing themselves because it's just like, this feels like a lot and too much versus if you actually practice, it actually becomes way simpler and depoliticized. And it's just like, oh, it's another feature of life, right? And I like that because it's just, it is way simpler, ah but just needs some practice. i'm I'm the same way. I'm getting back in the swing of um German. I grew up in Germany, and but then didn't speak a lot of German for a good chunk of time.
00:31:52
Speaker
And now I'm back to learning it. It's awkward at first, right? And it's embarrassing even a little bit, right? Because I want to be I remember when I was so much further along. And so it's just, yeah, I mean, just letting go of that self-consciousness and being like, this is a part of it It's uncomfortable, but, you know, leaning into it and, you know, showing up and doing this practice will make it easier. And it has for me.
00:32:18
Speaker
And it, you know, on other topics like land acknowledgements, I was similar, you know, 20 or so years ago. boy. Me too, about three months ago. ah But yes, it's awkward at first, but with practice, it becomes kind of second nature, I guess.
00:32:34
Speaker
yeah ah Cool. Well, I will put a link in the show notes to the practice pods and all all the other stuff that we have. And is there anything else that you wanted to bring up before we go No.
00:32:47
Speaker
Well, actually, yes.
Concluding Thoughts on Culture and Safety
00:32:50
Speaker
I would just say that culture is super, super important. I don't think anybody listening to this would hopefully disagree with that statement. It's not super controversial.
00:33:01
Speaker
ah But that... a the I would say that trans and non-binary folks are particularly attuned to culture and are very observant of what's happening, dynamics and issues and how things are handled and transparency and accountability and you know just and absorbing all of this to determine you know how they fit within that and how much are they going to share or how much or little that they're going to share of themselves. and so
00:33:32
Speaker
There is value, obviously not just for trans and non-binary folks, but since we're talking about that specifically, to to really work on that culture so that there's hopefully trans and non-binary folks are reading a degree of safety and even, dare we say, belonging that they could have there and really be excited about being a part of of the organization.
00:33:57
Speaker
So I definitely invite folks to... to invest in that ah development of culture. Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Kai. Thank you as well. It was good to to talk this through and hopefully provide some insights for folks. And yeah, thank you.
00:34:14
Speaker
Sweet. Well, see you next week. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Bye for now. Bye.