Become a Creator today!Start creating today - Share your story with the world!
Start for free
00:00:00
00:00:01
Should We Ditch “Mr.” and “Mrs.”? The Complicated Role of Salutations in Gender Inclusion
21 Plays2 months ago
Salutations like Mr., Mrs. and Miss. might seem harmless, but they reveal a lot about gender, identity, and tradition. In this episode, Kai and El unpack how these everyday titles shape our sense of belonging at work and beyond.
They explore how gendered titles can both affirm and exclude, especially for trans and non-binary people, along with cisgender women, and why something as simple as a title can carry so much meaning. Together, they discuss solutions for making language more inclusive, from removing salutations altogether to expanding options like Mx.
Whether you work in government, banking, education or any sector where formality still matters, this conversation offers real insight into how to balance respect, authenticity and inclusion.
Key themes: gender-inclusive language, workplace inclusion, trans and non-binary identity, communication norms, and cultural change.
Download our guide here!
__________
We want your feedback! Got some ideas about how we can improve the podcast?! We’ve made a short, painless survey to find out what you think, what you want more of... and what topics you'd love to hear us cover next. Let us know your thoughts here
___________
Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
Join us on social media: LinkedIn | Instagram | TikTok | Threads | Facebook
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction of 'Gender in Focus' and Kai Scott
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm Elle and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
and Whenever salutations come up in a discussion or a strategy session where we're trying to figure out how the organization wants to approach those types of salutations.
00:00:29
Speaker
And, you know, there can be some eye rolling among ah cisgender women who are like, ah I'm so over them too, because why do I need to disclose my marital status?
00:00:43
Speaker
As a non-binary person and as somebody who is very, my identity is very fluid, it's really hard to um feel comfortable in in any salutation. it It felt like wearing clothes that are just a bit too small.
00:00:58
Speaker
a Like it's just uncomfortable and like it doesn't fit right and I don't feel great in it.
Impact of Salutations on Perceptions
00:01:07
Speaker
Today we're diving into something you see every day but might not think twice about. Salutations. Mrs, Mr, Ms, and Mix. These little titles carry a lot of weight and they can shape how we're seen in workplaces, schools, and even in casual emails.
00:01:24
Speaker
We'll be rethinking these formalities. When do they serve us? When do they box us in? We'll also talk about that awkward in-between stage when systems haven't quite caught up yet.
00:01:34
Speaker
and you're navigating workarounds to be recognized the way you want. Along the way, you'll hear our personal takes, so let's unpack the past, present, and the possible futures of these little titles that carry big meaning.
00:01:48
Speaker
Stick around to find out are we team cancel or team keep about salutations? And I'm joined by our fearless colleague, Elle, fearless on this topic. Yeah, yeah.
00:02:01
Speaker
This is hot takes. sure yeah
00:02:05
Speaker
um How are you doing? I'm doing very well, Mr. Scott. How are you? wo We're going there. Salutations. Do you find it weird to be referred to as that?
00:02:17
Speaker
No, no, no, no, no. That's like a little like gender boost. Oh, right. This is where we're going get in a fight. Okay. ah This is where we're going to get into a fight.
Salutations in Formal Sectors
00:02:30
Speaker
Anyway, sorry. How are you? oh yeah i'm doing well I'm glad. What do we mean by salutations when it comes to like, I mean, we're talking specifically work here, I guess, but what are the kind of common options that we see in communications?
00:02:46
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. So um sometimes when people are filling out forms or they're thinking of sending an email and perhaps the person on the other end, we don't know as well. And as a way to signal respect or some aspect of formality,
00:03:03
Speaker
we might use a salutation combined with somebody's last name. For example, you just said Mr. Scott, right? So using Mr. combined with my last name as a way to speak to me. And there is a bit of, yeah, like almost a bit of professional distance that is created.
00:03:21
Speaker
um It is trying to be out of deference, right? Like that I don't know you, but, you know, I will still want to show respect and whatnot. So, um There's a bit of those, and that comes up a lot in particular sectors where formality is really important.
00:03:39
Speaker
I'm thinking of the banking industry or financial sector. ah you know Government is another big place. ah you know There's examples in municipalities where people take notes of formal proceedings and will refer to one another by Mr., Mrs., Ms.,
00:03:59
Speaker
And oftentimes there's not a gender neutral option.
Gender and Marital Status in Salutations
00:04:02
Speaker
So it's very much has gender baked into it, either man or woman and ah with no kind of options beyond that.
00:04:12
Speaker
And so that's a difficult thing. And I mean, with the exception of kind of role specific things. terms like doctor, reverend, captain, and so forth.
00:04:25
Speaker
So, but those are some of the options of salutations that exist out there. It's not just gender that's baked into salutations, it's also marital status for women.
00:04:37
Speaker
So the difference between Ms. and Mrs. is whether somebody is married or not. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think salutations are a really great example of this, um the crossover trans issues and ah sort of wider women's issues.
00:04:54
Speaker
They're similar issues that that we all have. And so i I guess I wanted you to go into that a bit more because you did just touch on it, but how this how how this affects not just trans people. It's much more beyond that.
00:05:08
Speaker
um i've We've gotten a lot of anecdotal feedback from ah women that we've talked to whenever salutations come up in a discussion or a strategy session where we're trying to figure out how the organization wants to approach those types of salutations.
00:05:25
Speaker
And you know there can be some eye rolling among ah cisgender women who are like, ah, I'm so over them too, because ah why do I need to disclose my marital status?
00:05:37
Speaker
Or people guess the wrong marital status, because usually it's based on age The assumption is if you're young, you're not married. And if you're older, you're married, um which doesn't want to reality. That's so bad. What?
00:05:51
Speaker
That's so bad. Ew. And it's like, oh, and I can only imagine for You know, there's a lot of pressure to get married. And so to be reminded that people assume or expect that person to be married and they're not either by choice or just by circumstance.
00:06:12
Speaker
And so that's just like not that fun to experience. time and time again through titles, right, or salutations, then, you know, if somebody is married, and they're younger, then the presumption that they're not, that can also be awkward, like, then you have to correct them or like, you know, what are we doing here? yeah,
00:06:34
Speaker
Right. So that's the kind of women's side of things. And um then with trans and non-binary folks, oftentimes it's either assuming based on how somebody looks, what their titles are, and again, coming from a good place of wanting to be respectful, but could ascribe the wrong ah ah salutation to that person.
00:06:58
Speaker
So if somebody does not look how we expect ah for either a trans woman or a man, then they may say Mrs. or Ms. instead of Mr. for a trans man or vice versa for a trans woman.
00:07:13
Speaker
um And then there's just complete invisibility of non-binary folks and not an awareness of gender neutral options available for addressing them.
00:07:24
Speaker
Mm-hmm. How can we make this better
Options for Inclusive Salutations
00:07:26
Speaker
then? think Like you've listed that this is an issue. I am, if you haven't noticed, I'm quite against them, aggressively against them. ah But so ah presumably, um and and I mean, you would know this, I guess, but I would imagine that there is some pushback to change, especially when it's sort of quite embedded in the culture of the the organization or the culture of the ah roles that that you're doing.
00:07:53
Speaker
um I would imagine that it's so baked in and I mean I'm from a country that ah revels in tradition like I cannot imagine this being taken away from the Brits anytime soon we will cling to that that formality ear please so like I would imagine that it's not as easy as just not doing it as much as I would like that so ah yeah well how can we make this better Yeah.
00:08:20
Speaker
So there are two different options. So there is the removal option. So you can decide as an organization or as a team or, you know, whatever unit you want that you're not going to do it anymore um and refer to somebody's first name.
00:08:39
Speaker
Hopefully their chosen first name, not their legal first name. there's a little extra layer there for consideration. But certainly first names are more and more common, especially as there's less and less formality in our society.
00:08:55
Speaker
And I don't think a lot of people, perhaps maybe older generation folks do, it is a bit little bit more difficult for them because they are used to more formality. um But for younger generation folks, it's like, yeah.
00:09:08
Speaker
They don't even blink with use of first name, you know, dear so-and-so in a letter or in an email. Now, a the other option is expanding the number of options available and making sure people provide their salutations themselves. So we're not ascribing something to somebody.
00:09:28
Speaker
We're always collecting that information from them and then using those correspondingly. So expand and, ah you know, use and collect. and those And then making sure we add MX or mix into the um one of the options.
00:09:45
Speaker
and So that's the gender neutral version of Mr., Ms., or Mrs. So that's really important to add into it. And we always want to make collecting ah salutations voluntary. So we're not forcing people to share that.
00:10:01
Speaker
Because some, especially non-binary folks that use ah mix may not feel ready or safe to share that with in a particular context. And so we always want to respect that decision making because it's really tricky.
00:10:17
Speaker
And i guess for the same for cisgender women who don't want to go into whether or not they're married. So, yeah. If you go the route of, you know, ah pivoting away from salutations, some people are like, well, but but we're doing official proceedings and we still need to be respectful.
00:10:36
Speaker
If that's the case, rather than using, say, if you're takingck um doing a community consultation and you want to note what everybody is saying um about whatever zoning or whatever exciting thing a city is doing, and rather than Mr. Miz or MX, it's better to say Speaker Scott, right?
00:10:58
Speaker
is, you know, against this proposal or, you speaker, your last name is also like is for it, right? um So these are ways that we can still have that formality, but not attributed to a salutation.
00:11:13
Speaker
hey So when it comes to expanding those options, what does that look like in terms of sort of like at a systems level when you're work?
Incorporating Inclusivity in Systems
00:11:22
Speaker
That's not, yeah, a lot of forms don't have these options. And so what can that look like for, well, one, what that looks like on a systems level, but two, what that looks like when you don't have a system set up to to support this?
00:11:36
Speaker
Right. Yes. So if there's like a form, a sign up, she or registration, and that is something you're wanting to use as part of writing a letter correspondence or to speak to somebody to address somebody in a like a public hearing.
00:11:53
Speaker
then it is useful to collect that as part of like their first name. And, you know, sometimes residency is important. And so, you know, there's just information that people are providing. And so to add salutations to that, but not just collect it, but also for staff to know to take note of it, right? Because it's one thing to collect it, but if you're not going to use it, then it kind of falls flat.
00:12:16
Speaker
And then people are back to the old system of like, oh, you look femme, so you must be a Ms. Right? So let's not do that. right And instead, you know collect it, have staff be prepared to look for each of the person and then actually use that.
00:12:32
Speaker
um And it's ideal to have yeah you know um either a fill in the blank, if people are worried about the fill in the blank, then ah certainly a check all that apply is helpful too.
00:12:45
Speaker
um Because similar to multiple pronouns, perhaps somebody might also have multiple salutations. So we just want to be respectful of those, um whatever they are um And then also, again, not to make it required. So if somebody's filling out a digital form and they can't proceed unless they provide it that is a barrier to access. So we always want to have people be able to skip that information and not have to provide it.
00:13:14
Speaker
And if that is the case, then having a backup. What is the backup if they don't provide a salutation? And so just having multiple things ready so that people are and consistent and on the same page from a staff perspective.
00:13:29
Speaker
And you were saying if there's like the system is still being updated, ah so kind of interim measures, if it's not possible to add a field, say to a digital form, um then it's helpful ah to make note of what people provide in like a a comment section. Usually most systems have a comment section.
00:13:53
Speaker
So there are interim ways that that those things can be addressed when provided so that you know all staff can know that piece of information and utilize it for that person. So it's not like, oh, we're waiting for the systems to be updated and five years later we'll do it.
00:14:11
Speaker
No, we can still do something now. And just a little extra work legwork, maybe a little bit more manual, ah but still just as important.
Personal Experiences with Salutations
00:14:20
Speaker
Well, I suppose we've got to the part of the podcast now where we fight. um yeah if you If this is the first time you're tuning in, we regularly fight. No, I'm joking.
00:14:30
Speaker
I wanted to ask you then, you so you've alluded to the fact that you're maybe not as stubbornly against this as I am. and So why is that, Mr. Scott, if you don't mind sharing? Yes, Mr. Scott.
00:14:45
Speaker
um So... For some trans, and also non-binary folks, yeah yeah proper salutations can be gender affirming.
00:14:57
Speaker
It feels good to be referred to as such, mainly because a lot of one's life was the other um salutation. And so to tip over into the other side, it just feels so affirmed. Like it there's a bit of a boost and like, oh, that feels good.
00:15:16
Speaker
um Now, I don't need constant gender affirmation, especially not through salutations. Like, I can let it go, you know. There's other ways that I affirm my gender.
00:15:28
Speaker
But it feels good. It does feel good. And so it does for others as well um in that they're... properly addressed, similar to pronouns. um And because there's that formality, think it's like little bit extra special compared to pronouns. Pronouns are a little bit more everyday, you know, the Mr. Scott's like, Oh yes, I am esteemed, you know, just yeah exactly the cherry on top of the beautiful cake of gender.
00:15:58
Speaker
So that's part of it. And again, that's sweet. For me, and perhaps others feel differently, i am for me it's worth letting go of that form of affirmation because of the trouble it causes others, right?
00:16:14
Speaker
And so that's the balance. Like I'm able to let go of something personally of interest for a ah collective improvement. He's so great. know.
00:16:26
Speaker
I can hold all realities. ah But what about you? um You're ah hot take on salutations. I just don't think that they're relevant anymore. They seem to me, they're so superfluous, it becomes ridiculous.
00:16:42
Speaker
But i I do really get that. and And you're not the only person that I've heard say that, that it's like a really good feeling to to get the right um salutation. And it's sort of like a big moment. I can remember being with somebody when they received a letter for the first time referring to them as Mr. Somebody.
00:16:59
Speaker
And so it was just like a really... really exciting moment for them. And so I do get that. I think for me, um as a non-binary person and as somebody who's very, my identity is very fluid.
00:17:15
Speaker
It's really hard to um feel comfortable in in any salutation. And it always felt very uncomfortable. It it felt like wearing um clothes that are just a bit too small.
00:17:28
Speaker
a Like it's just uncomfortable and like it doesn't fit right and I don't feel great in it. That's how it feels. And so, and you know, the alternative ah for non-binary people or for anybody really, he doesn't want to have, well wants to have a salutation that's more gender neutral, mix is an option.
00:17:45
Speaker
But to me that just doesn't feel right either. And so there isn't, miss is the one that people default to. And I worked in a school, i was a teacher for a little bit and I was always Miss Orchard and i it was cute because it was little kids saying it. So that was cute, but it, it, it wasn't, it still didn't feel right. and And so, yeah, there isn't really an option that feels good to me. I mean, maybe captain, let's try that out. Ooh, now we're talking. Yes. We're like respect.
00:18:19
Speaker
But yeah, no, it it just doesn't feel good to me at all. But there is no option that does feel good. So it's not like, okay, we'll just do this alternative then. um So that's why I'm against it.
00:18:30
Speaker
But that's very selfish. I know. And there are some good reasons to have it too. important considerations though, um because yeah I'm sure you're not alone in that, right?
00:18:41
Speaker
And that even if the person kind of ascribing a salutation to somebody, they may not realize that they're putting this person in a difficult spot like you, right?
00:18:53
Speaker
um And if we just like as simple as forgoing it, like it seems like a low cost thing, right? yeah Yeah. I was sort of doom scrolling on Instagram recently and found somebody as one talking about this.
00:19:08
Speaker
Yeah. Found somebody talking about this, not not talking about salutations specifically related to trans issues, but were essentially on the ah sort of getting annoyed at older adults saying to their toddler, oh, no need for Mr. Somebody or no need for Miss Somebody. You can just call me L. And they were saying in this video, it really annoys them because like, no, you're not my kid's friend. You're, you're,
00:19:34
Speaker
their elder you're somebody to be respected and so they always ensure that their child refers to this person as Mr Scott or Miss Orchard and that's I like I can understand that they're doing that from the place of wanting to be respectful and so I think there is this association that it's more respectful to use a salutation um especially if you're not you know close with somebody but I think that's old-fashioned hot take Yeah, no, that's good that you raised that, that there also is perhaps a ah kind of cultural aspect to it, right? And many cultures...
00:20:13
Speaker
requiring deference to elders or parents or, you know, people that we don't know as much and that it be important moment, especially say in German, there's, there's a difference between, um, there's like a formal you, very similar to French and, uh, a not form or like an informal you.
00:20:33
Speaker
And that switch between the two is actually really important for relationship building. Um, and it signifies a closing, getting closer. Right. And I think, Those are important flags or markers along the way that we in North America don't have because of that. Right. and so I appreciate why, um either cultures or different generations do want or utilize, um, those, but I think it's just taking the extra time and effort to better understand how the person on the other end is receiving it.
00:21:09
Speaker
If they're like, yeah, this is the jam. I'm cool. I'm glad this is happening, then there's no issue. But if there isn't, then, if somebody is having a hard time, like that seems like torture.
00:21:22
Speaker
Why put somebody through that, right? For first what you think is a good thing, but it's not, right?
Drew Dennis and 'Reverend' Salutation
00:21:28
Speaker
And so it's just the more that kind of tailored, individualized approach to this rather than everyone's getting it.
00:21:36
Speaker
Right, regardless. Well, one funny story I want to share is about the other co-founder of Transfocus, Drew Dennis, as their non-binary and um which is public knowledge. I'm not letting them. right um Wow. Yeah. yeah like President of Transfocus Consulting just outed. Wow.
00:22:00
Speaker
Co-founder. um And back in the day, there used to be pretty, your systems used to be very rigid about salutations. Like it was like, you are giving us a salutation.
00:22:12
Speaker
And of course, back in the day, even today sometimes don't have the the mix as an option, so MX. And so they're kind of left with fewer options ah beyond Mr. Ms. Mrs. And so they would go for Reverend Dennis, which i think has quite a interesting fun ring to it.
00:22:34
Speaker
Love that. Don't put don't put consider that non non-binary people in a pickle with your systems. Yeah. Reverend, that's great. And also probably makes people on their best behavior around them. one Reverend here.
00:22:51
Speaker
Love. So where did we land? we we i think we're closer to team cancel. i Team cancel. um But i like I like being in conflict with you. So let's continue the fight.
00:23:04
Speaker
Just say we haven't come to an agreement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Compromise. It's up to the individual who is receiving the salutation.
Resource for Gender-Inclusive Forms
00:23:13
Speaker
We do have a resource on this, Kai. Could you tell us about that, please?
00:23:18
Speaker
Dang. You're so on it. um Yes, we do have a resource ah and that we're going to provide in the show notes, thankfully. And it's gender inclusive forms. So it includes all things about forms, but there's a particular section just on salutations, but we also call titles and it'll give you some kind of do's and don'ts and things to consider so that when you're creating, you're updating your systems that you can incorporate that into it.
00:23:47
Speaker
um Whether you're going to continue using salutations or remove them, all of these things you can kind of work through ah using this important resource available to you for free with examples of screenshots. So really just generate wow spell it out because have any barriers to making these very new, like um seemingly small, but impactful changes?
00:24:19
Speaker
Amazing. Well, I will link that in the show notes. um And we'll see you next week. Thank you so much, Kai. You're welcome. Bye for now. Bye.