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Inclusive Workplaces Aren’t Built from the Top
25 Plays2 months ago
Change doesn’t just come from the top. So often, it begins with the people on the ground, the ones who see the cracks in systems, who notice when something isn’t working, and who care enough to say, "this could be better."
In this episode of Gender in Focus, El and Kai share why you don’t need a leadership title to make a difference. They talk about how frontline staff can raise concerns without needing all the answers, how simply keeping track of patterns can turn frustration into action, and how even small experiments can inspire bigger shifts.
This episode is an invitation to anyone who’s ever thought, “That’s not my place to fix.” It is, and your perspective might just be the catalyst for change.
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We want your feedback! Got some ideas about how we can improve the podcast?! We’ve made a short, painless survey to find out what you think, what you want more of... and what topics you'd love to hear us cover next. Let us know your thoughts here
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Want to get in touch? Contact us at podcast@transfocus.ca
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Transcript
Introduction to Gender in Focus with Kai Scott
00:00:04
Speaker
Welcome to the Gender in Focus podcast. I'm El and each week I get to ask Kai Scott, the president of TransFocus Consulting, all the questions you have ever wanted to ask about trans and non-binary people in the workplace and in the wider world.
00:00:18
Speaker
We get a lot of questions of, especially from frontline workers, because they're so passionate about serving people and are really good at it too, that um they're often like, what do I do? How do I handle this? And it's like, you got this.
00:00:33
Speaker
there is a little bit of pressure to have like a solution on hand, like this is a problem and here's the solution, what do you think? um But actually this is really complex and especially those more structural stuff, there's a lot of complexity to it. So you don't necessarily have to have all the answers in order to raise this.
Redefining Leadership in the Workplace
00:00:55
Speaker
In today's episode, we're flipping the script on what it means to be a leader. You don't need a fancy title or a corner office to spark change. Whether you're brand new or a seasoned staffer, you are a leader when you notice structural issues, speak up, and model more inclusive ways of working.
00:01:14
Speaker
We'll talk about how to spot patterns before they become problems, how to document and raise concerns effectively, and how small, thoughtful actions like trying something new or offering solutions can ripple outward.
00:01:27
Speaker
This one's for anyone who ever has thought, I see the problem, but I'm not sure if it's my place to fix it. Spoiler alert, it is. Let's get into
Addressing Issues Without Leader Buy-In
00:01:37
Speaker
El And I'm joined by my coworker, Elle.
00:01:40
Speaker
Hello, Elle. Hello. How doing? How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing well. about yourself? I'm doing very well. Thank you. It is pretty common for people who are not in leadership positions or like leadership roles to feel like totally powerless when it comes to kind of seeing changes and making those changes.
00:02:00
Speaker
um And I guess that's really where I wanted to start. Like, why would you say that it is important to kind of challenge that narrative? Yeah, there's this concept that if we don't have leader buy-in, we can't go forward, which i appreciate, right? we Obviously, there can be, in some instances, costs involved or ah particular direction that needs to be established before starting to gallantly go in a particular direction.
00:02:32
Speaker
But I will say that sometimes leaders are dealing with other things or perhaps they they don't really understand the depth of the issues. Or they're not convinced yet of what is at play and maybe they're dealing with a whole bunch of other stuff, right? So, I mean, it's not always coming from a malicious place or um a
Identifying Structural Problems from the Frontline
00:02:54
Speaker
dismissive place.
00:02:55
Speaker
But i will say that sometimes there's just the absence of leaders, um the kind of more formal leadership roles. But there's so many people that see things um on the ground day to day and really powerful connection to what's off or what's going well. And ah just want to invite those people into the mix as well.
00:03:20
Speaker
And oftentimes they can kind of dismiss their, the the importance of their role and to the organization, the alert leaders of what's going on.
00:03:31
Speaker
And so I just really want to kind of empower folks to not hesitate or hold back just because leaders aren't quite there yet. You said just then about how people who are kind of sort of on the ground on a day to day are really the ones who are seeing this more more often. If you're like frontline staff, you're going to be experiencing these things ah in a lot sort of closer way.
00:03:56
Speaker
And so I was wondering if you could go into that, like what, especially like more structural stuff, what kind of structural things that frontline staff might notice or might have to deal with that would bring a kind of better insight to to leadership if they were to lead or to to go with that and explain it. Yeah.
00:04:15
Speaker
Yeah, it's such a good question because, you know, there are frontline workers who are, you know, dealing with customers or organizing fellow employees or a whole number of different things or roles and functions that they play.
00:04:33
Speaker
And the way that things are set up can either serve them in that role or make it more difficult for them. I mean, a very basic example is if you have a new client or a customer coming in and you're processing that person's name, their address, you know, entering a bunch of information about them into a system.
00:04:55
Speaker
And that system isn't set up for, say, two first name fields, but then unfortunately, you know, a lot of frontline workers have a hard time respectfully interacting with folks because they're just looking on somebody's ID and are like, okay, that's their name.
00:05:11
Speaker
But when in fact, that's their past name, and they go by, ah you know, a chosen name ah that they haven't legally updated yet, or perhaps don't want to update legally And so it just, yeah, that presents a challenge. And then there's an interaction, people could become upset and say, you know, this is my real name. um And not through any slight to the frontline worker, but just because of the way the system is set up.
00:05:39
Speaker
that frontline worker now has to deal with that situation, right? And some are very creative and can figure something out on the fly. Others can, you know, wonder what to do, but also be very hesitant and then just be like, my hands are tied. I'm sorry, you know?
00:05:56
Speaker
um And so that's where frontline workers can really lead to say, hey, this is what came up. last week, the month before, you know, if you can get some numbers behind that, people can see just what scale of issue this is, and that more attention needs to be paid to these types of issues.
Documenting and Presenting Issues to Leaders
00:06:17
Speaker
Another example is washrooms. If you don't have enough options, then people are put in a very difficult position as trans and non-binary folks. And so, um you know, there's there's things that you can say, hey, we had a non-binary person come by and And when there was only men's and women's washrooms, then they don't know where to go and we can't support them in that access.
00:06:41
Speaker
So those are just a few examples to illustrate what people are seeing on the ground that they can report up ah to other folks. You mentioned in your intro that a lot of people don't feel like it's their place to do that.
00:06:54
Speaker
And you you just gave some examples then, but I wondered if you could go into the ways that people can bring this to their to their leader, if they're especially if they're worried like it's it isn't their place to to say something.
00:07:08
Speaker
um Yeah, what what are the kind of ways that people can bring that up? Yeah. So I appreciate why people hesitate. Sometimes systems can be fairly either intimidating to figure out how to fix or overwhelming, or maybe people think there's a cost associated with fixing something. And so it's not their decision to apply, you know, money or resources to this.
00:07:35
Speaker
So they just may hang back, hold back. But actually, them letting leaders know whether it's in an email that you send to your manager or supervisor, so one level up to say, these are some of the things that I'm seeing on the ground, and they're quite persistent issues.
00:07:55
Speaker
It happened this many times, you know a week, a month, anything that gives them some sense of the how prevalent it is. Or maybe it's not prevalent, but it is a big issue, right?
00:08:08
Speaker
So it was very disruptive because of something. Maybe that person that trans or non-binary person decided not to come back, right? So that could have an impact on somebody's business if you have customers that are not coming back.
00:08:22
Speaker
um And usually if they have a bad experience, they're they might be sharing with others, right? So yeah it's having leaders be aware of what's happening via email, ah also can raise during a meeting.
00:08:36
Speaker
Perhaps there are town halls in which you can kind of submit this, whether anonymously or attached to your name. um eat Any number of channels to try to get this to information.
00:08:47
Speaker
As I will say, ah we typically at Transfocus get called in when enough of these um have been raised by folks on the ground. So, the people, companies will come, well, we've heard, you know, five complaints in the last month, and we realized we really need to do something, it seems to be getting worse.
00:09:08
Speaker
And so that's where, of course, it's not just TransFocus, there's plenty of other organizations also that can help. but This just gives you an idea of kind of connecting the dots for folks. um And leaders may not always know the what's happening on the ground ah to be able to be aware.
00:09:25
Speaker
But once it's been raised to them and they realize, okay, this is um there's a few different things at play and just how often it happens, it really can help um kind of jump them into action.
00:09:37
Speaker
That's so interesting that it happens like that you'll get called in after like multiple people have, have mentioned this. And I find that really interesting because it's sort of, I think maybe, or maybe this is just me, but I always feel a little self-conscious if I'm bringing a problem up that I don't have a solution to like, that I'd always feel like I'm just complaining.
00:09:59
Speaker
and And, you know, I just feel like so there may be or maybe maybe it is just me, but there is a little bit of pressure to have like a solution on hand. Like this is a problem and here's the solution. What do you think?
00:10:12
Speaker
um But actually, this is really complex. And especially those more structural stuff. it There's a lot of complexity to it. So you don't necessarily have to have all the answers in order to raise this.
00:10:23
Speaker
Oh, absolutely not. and In fact, one of the things I say during education sessions that as frontline staff, you're not responsible. Obviously, some people can be creative in the moment to create ah like to develop a workaround. That's okay, right? You want to kind of, kind of the best you can address it in the moment um to say, okay, this is kind of a temporary fix while we sort it out long-term.
00:10:49
Speaker
But by then raising it with um leaders, then they can take the action for the long term piece. And I think that's that's key. And that but yeah, I appreciate people are a bit self conscious. I, I, I can totally relate, you know, I want to be um kind of solutions oriented.
00:11:07
Speaker
ah but I think there's value in saying, hey, leader, i this came these things or this thing came up and I developed this workaround so that we're okay for the moment, you know, kind of stabilize things.
00:11:22
Speaker
So that that shows you have initiative um and you try to solve it in the moment. um And then that gives the leader some view as to how that could be solved more long term, even if it's not carbon copy, at least starting in the right direction. right And you know you're not expected to know exactly how things should be solved long term, because they are complex, there's a lot of trade offs in the solutions going forward. And it is best to, you know, involve, ah you know various departments and, you look, explore the options and, and whatnot. But um I think interim solutions are really powerful catalysts. So um not to diminish just because they're short term, that they don't mean anything um that you can highlight your initiative.
Inspiring Change Through Documented Insights
00:12:11
Speaker
Yeah. How can we raise concerns in a way that feels like constructive rather than like confrontational? Because i think a lot of people maybe worry about receiving backlash for bringing this up.
00:12:25
Speaker
And well, i i would, i think, if I was in a different job. Yeah, that's a really good question because, you know, we want people to be able to raise these issues without it, um you know, impacting their day-to-day work or how the the leader views that person, right?
00:12:43
Speaker
um And I think it's really key to come with ah like, hey, you may or may not know this, but these are some of the things I'm observing and i'm I understand our organization to have these values, and I want to help the organization live up to those values. So it's that's a very constructive way to say It's just like we have this mission or this this vision, and um because of these things that may not be on the radar, like you don't expect the leader to know everything. It's just like, hey, heads up.
00:13:18
Speaker
um And in a way that is not shaming or blaming ah that individual or set of people who don't know, because oftentimes it's just not on companies' radars.
00:13:31
Speaker
Also, another thing to add into the mix is that usually this is also happening at other organizations. This is not something... unique to this particular organization. Like they're uniquely awful to trans and non-binary people.
00:13:45
Speaker
It's just the way we've set things up in society. And, um but that also allows for course correction. So just a few of those kind of stylistic approaches can really help, you know leaders receive that information ah as the constructive input that it is, right?
00:14:05
Speaker
And if you have leaders, even though you've thoughtfully constructed and sent this with good vibes, and you still get kind of thrown under the bus, that might be a larger cultural issue rather than, you know, specific to that individual. So it might be its own test.
00:14:25
Speaker
But yeah. You said something a couple minutes ago, and I don't know if you can say more on this, but I did want to bring it up just in case there is, which was about, you mentioned the documentation ah of these issues.
00:14:39
Speaker
And I wanted to ask you about like the importance of that and why keeping track of this is like why ah why that works or why that's important.
00:14:50
Speaker
Yeah, thank you so much for that question, because it is really important. ah Leaders often make decisions from quantitative information. So that means numbers.
00:15:02
Speaker
and They want to know the scale of things. They want to know, um you know, as much detail as possible to effectively understand, but pretty quickly understand as well. It's like a 10-page report doesn't quite help, but...
00:15:17
Speaker
You know, a one or two page thing with, you know, some porting information. So anytime something happens, you know, it's it's valuable to write it either in a document or in a spreadsheet, if you're so inclined ah to say, you know, this is the date, this is the people involved.
00:15:37
Speaker
ah If you know the identities or, you know, then you know that they use they them pronouns as an example, or, um you know, the also just the nature of the issue that arose um and you know the kind of category of thing. Was it a washroom related issue? Was it an information system?
00:15:58
Speaker
Was it about communications? ah Just something where you can have you know some categories that, um and you don't have to, they don't have to be perfect, right? Just some rough categories.
00:16:10
Speaker
that allow folks to see just, you know, what scale we're talking about and in different areas, because it it pops up in different areas. and And, you know, collect that over, you know one or two, three months just to see how often it happens, especially if you're dealing with a lot of customers.
Testing Solutions and Demonstrating Success
00:16:30
Speaker
then or, you know, people in general, that can be really helpful just, you know, and if it's such a, like a really fast reoccurring issue, I would just have a tally even just be like, this person complained about washrooms, number 10, you know, like, if if it's really fast, you that's one approach that you can quickly capture and then be like, look,
00:16:55
Speaker
you know, over the last one month we had 15 washroom complaints. Like that's really big cause for concern and ah and would be very powerful to hear. Yeah. How can, like how, Oh, I don't know what question is here, but as a leader ah receiving that information, like, well, i I like where you're going with this in the sense that sometimes people are collecting information,
00:17:21
Speaker
um based on how they've experienced it. And then there's the other step of the leader interpreting or kind of consuming the data. And I don't think it's about kind of the end all be all of, you know, the full, you know, blow by blow of what it was.
00:17:40
Speaker
It's more just like a bell that you're alerting the leader to. And then they need to go they're inspired to, to then collect more specific data that speak to what they need, right?
00:17:55
Speaker
So you're just getting the ball rolling by observing and collecting a few kind of key pieces of information. Doesn't have to be perfect, but enough to you know send that on to a leader, to them then be like, okay, now we gotta to start something official.
00:18:12
Speaker
And that's where, like say for example, when Transfocus gets involved, We conduct an inventory of washrooms. We look over the documents and we have a very kind of methodical approach that then gives us the precise exact details that are needed um to then make proper decisions. So it's really just getting started with this kind of initial set of observations and information that's collected.
00:18:41
Speaker
And I would assume then that as somebody who's ah sort of more of the frontline staff making an effort to collect this information and kind of document all of this would like model that for other people too. So you're more likely to get more information and more evidence put together.
00:18:59
Speaker
Absolutely. In fact, if you work across departments as a frontline staff and, you know, can say, hey, I'm collecting this information here, are you encountering similar issues or perhaps different issues and This is what I'm doing to collect that information.
00:19:16
Speaker
you know, I'm happy to share what I've put together in case it's useful for you. And then you can help inspire others to also similarly pay attention to these types of issues.
00:19:27
Speaker
um And maybe they're just not on their radar and then they go, I didn't even think about it. And now they're paying attention to those things and can actually see them. Sometimes people don't see issues because they don't know that they're occurring even right in front of their eyes. So yeah, it is helpful to share with others.
00:19:47
Speaker
It's like one of those things where as soon as someone does point out, that's all you see now. like True. I definitely feel like I have that since joining Trans Focus. Oh really? That's all I see now. Mushroom signs. And I felt like I was pretty conscious of it before, but it's ramped up. So yeah, I can imagine that modeling, that behavior will really increase that farther.
00:20:09
Speaker
Yeah. Become little gender detectives that, you know, go around with their magnifying glasses, you know, eyeing different things.
00:20:17
Speaker
Can I ask skew you, you told me a story once about you, ah doing, doing this in, um, your, is it your running club? I can't remember. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Vancouver front runners. Front runners. That was it. Yeah.
00:20:31
Speaker
Um, can I, it all right if, if I ask you about that and like, if you could share that, I love this story. Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely. So this is in the spirit of um if you see something, it's not only saying something, but it's also trying something.
00:20:49
Speaker
you can appreciate that, you know, there's exclusion, even if unintended. ah In my example with the Vancouver Frontrunners, we We have a race or they I'm no longer with the front runners, but when I was, we had a race and they still have the race, um the pride run every year. it happens in July and it's this really fun community event.
00:21:12
Speaker
And before um they just had two race categories, men and women. And um that wasn't enough for the full spectrum of gender identities.
00:21:23
Speaker
And so I said, hey, why don't we add a third race category to honor those who are non-binary and give them a space to participate? and And if they want a race, you know, to see how they stack up against others. And, you know, of course, always fun because it's not too serious. But still, it's a way of recognizing, especially there's podium, you know,
00:21:46
Speaker
celebrations afterwards for first to third place. And so, yeah, we, um, we added that as a race category because i think it was really important to try that out because sure within front runners, it's, um, you know, more of a community race, it's not really serious, but we could be a fertile testing ground for other races that perhaps are a little bit more serious right and more competitive and It was a jumping off place. So even if you're within the department, you can, you know, amongst yourselves at a fairly small scale, of course, no costs associated with it.
00:22:26
Speaker
Certain things do require costs, but, you know, test out things um because then you can easily demonstrate the effectiveness of something or to say, hey, the sky didn't fall when we did it this way.
00:22:41
Speaker
You know, because oftentimes leaders are nervous to change things, which I appreciate, right? um Going with the status quo is pretty easy, um even if it's not fulfilling everybody's needs.
00:22:54
Speaker
But then change requires you know you know effort and bringing people along and addressing complaints and whatnot. So I i see why people steer clear of change or you know you know kicking it kick it down the road sometimes.
00:23:09
Speaker
But if you're able to just demonstrate in a small group like we did with Vancouver Frontrunners, You can then share it with other organizations or other departments in your example as a frontline worker or in our instance, we shared that with other um races and then inspired them to add a third race category as well.
00:23:30
Speaker
And it's been growing since then. And now a lot of races have a third race category. I'm not saying just because of front runners. Don't want to over exaggerate our practice here or are exploration.
00:23:44
Speaker
think it's a wider pattern that's happening. But just that it's there's value in trying something out. And then even documenting that to say, this is what worked well. And this is where we didn't quite get what we we needed.
00:23:59
Speaker
Maybe we need to continue to tweak um that. And we also needed to tweak the race categories as well. So it's not kind of ah just one and done.
Embracing Experimentation to Overcome Resistance
00:24:11
Speaker
and might be evolving things. I love that story because I really love that idea of that you you were talking about just giving something a go, like just see if it works and if it doesn't, then that's information too.
00:24:24
Speaker
um And I really, i don't really know what my question is here, but I wanted you to go into that a little bit when it comes to leadership and receiving this information from frontline staff and Maybe if they have suggestions.
00:24:41
Speaker
There is that you were saying about how people can be a bit hesitant to to have that change. And so i was wondering if you could speak to that and like the role that leadership can have on just giving things go.
00:24:53
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So an example of that within the workplace is if there's a, you know, say a washroom that you don't have enough options And you could introduce temporary signage, right?
00:25:09
Speaker
And of course, you want to make sure everybody in that office, you know, is on is aware, you don't want just one day have a different sign. And then people are confused. ah But more just to say, hey, you know, in a team meeting, how about, you know, we have a single unit washroom, it's labeled for women right now.
00:25:27
Speaker
What if we you know had that for anybody? And then it's more accessible for a variety of different people. um And you know it's really important and and we'll just try it out and then see and then reflect on it, right? So it's not that this is forever in a day. It's just like, you're gonna try it out together. And then it's a process of you discussing it and reflecting it or maybe an anonymous survey. I mean, I don't know how far you wanna go with the data collection.
00:25:56
Speaker
Hashtag data nerd here. um ah But you know what I mean? Just like get people involved. And because it's not permanent, there's perhaps not as much of a backup or lot of concerns. I just be like, want to explore this. And everybody has a say and we're going to figure this out together.
00:26:16
Speaker
And then you can share that process um after, you know, however many ah time period you want to test it out. um And then say to the other floors, the other offices, however big your company is, hey, we tried this out and this is what worked. This is what we want to continue to tweak.
00:26:36
Speaker
What about doing this elsewhere. Was that your question by the way? I don't know if I was answering. I think so. I think I just asked, I think you answered it. I think I just asked about as a leader, hearing suggestions or just getting this information, how how you can, like that there's so much hesitation, like you can just try, like it's nothing's permanent. You're not literally bulldozing the building and redesigning it.
00:27:05
Speaker
Well, especially if if a department is pretty keen, like quell that ah enthusiasm or that initiative? Like if somebody is or a set of people are so passionate to want to make things better in an organization and they all are on board to try this out, like that's a really beautiful thing that speaks well to the culture. And as a leader, I would want to continue to cultivate that and even celebrate them to be like, thank you for knowing the issue, looking at some possible solutions, and then taking action. Like, holy smokes, that's amazing. Yeah.
00:27:42
Speaker
I also think that like, and and I might go off on a tangent here, so I'll try not to, but I also think that it's quite powerful for people who maybe are against the idea to to just try it and like not push back and not be against trying it. Because if if you're right and and it's going to be a disaster, then you'll have the evidence for that. so it's It is actually super powerful, even if you disagree with it.
00:28:05
Speaker
Absolutely. Yeah, that's a really good point. And one that, you know, if somebody is ah frontline worker is taking kind of charges, maybe not the right word, but, you know, leading this thing is...
00:28:17
Speaker
is to bring people alongside of being like, this will be revealed if it's not a good idea, right? right And, or you might be surprised by things that you discover along the way, like just being open to possibilities um and not having to kind of have a particular outcome in mind and be gunning for some direction.
00:28:38
Speaker
It's more like, let's, let's just figure it out. Like, and and and write it down too so that we can kind of look at it together and i i just I hope for a lot more exploration rather than you know people digging into things because yeah i think there's a lot to acknowledge you know washrooms being one example that's a pretty easy one to anchor in but there's some others others but that there's a lot to be gained no matter
00:29:12
Speaker
who when is to better understand these things. Because washrooms on the surface looks really simple. It's just like, well, do this, do that, should be done, right? It's like, well, no, actually, so much going on in washrooms, at least that I've been able to observe. It's so such a culturally laid in place that i think we all need to pay a little more attention to it.
00:29:33
Speaker
And if people Again, it's a small group. We don't want to make this like a massive thing unless it's more official, but the smaller i find the better to have it kind of worked out.
00:29:46
Speaker
And it's not like you're going to solve everything, right? It's not world peace after this, right?
Empowering Grassroots Leadership with TransFocus
00:29:50
Speaker
So, I mean, I wish, but so but it but ah that the process itself yields far more than just solutions.
00:30:01
Speaker
Do you have any sort of, like as we're wrapping this up, any kind of thoughts or further thoughts on the fact that we don't have to be in leadership roles in order to take initiative and to kind of lead by example with this?
00:30:14
Speaker
Yeah, this has been really interesting to kind of unpack and hopefully unlock some of the hesitation or reservations for leadership.
00:30:25
Speaker
people to take initiative in their own organizations that they play a very powerful role. um so for some, they can kind of dismiss that a bit. And I'm like, no, actually, of course, everybody has their own specific role.
00:30:40
Speaker
But I find frontline workers in particular have this tremendous insight that many others don't. And so just making sure we can um you know, bring that into the equation so that folks ah feel that they can participate. Because we get a lot of questions of, especially from frontline workers, because they're so passionate about serving people and are really good at it too.
00:31:04
Speaker
that um they're often like, what do i do How do I handle this? And it's like, you got this. You have such an important role to play. And it's just kind of connecting a few of the dots, offering some options.
00:31:19
Speaker
You might find your own different way from what we've just described and and just really inviting folks into the change making process as an important initiator of that within an organization. So that's my invitation. i'd love to hear from folks as they kind of figure out their footing on in this regard. If you do have some examples where it turned out really well based on that initiative.
00:31:47
Speaker
We'd love to hear about those examples, um you know, whether it's emailing us at podcast at transfocus.ca or, you know, any of the social media platforms that we're on, you know, we'd love to hear from you on that.
00:32:01
Speaker
Thank you so much, Kai. Yeah, absolutely. just but Yeah, and thank you as well. And yeah, I really enjoyed the opportunity just ah to kind of think that through and hopefully that's helpful ah to the folks listening.
00:32:13
Speaker
I hope so. ah I'll see you later then. Bye. Bye for now.