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The Leftovers Season 2 Part 1 FULL SPOILERS
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Doug and Tony get lifted and dive back into the world of The Garvey's. They of course went long as hell, so the episode is split into two parts
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Transcript
Critique of Tech Giants
00:00:13
Speaker
with Twitter it is so laissez-faire in that sense I started recording by the way I just I just figured like we might accidentally get something good while we're bullshitting that is like comment sorry go ahead no i was gonna say that's like the main is is like even as the inshittification of Twitter and it's not just Twitter like obviously like just tech everything's getting bad like Google like sucks to use even though I'm stubborn and I'm like well I'm not using Bing or i did used it a couple times because Microsoft tied it to some like bullshit reward system We're like, oh you can get some months of like Spotify free if you use the Bing this many times. And and then I stopped using I'm like, whatever. I'd rather pay money than get your bullshit freebies from using using this bullshit. Yeah.
Appreciating Twitter's Free Speech
00:00:59
Speaker
Yeah, but but that's just as the internet ah as a whole gets shittier, especially Twitter, I still do like the Wild West feel of like, yeah, I can post whatever. like that that It's other than, I guess, Universal really checking the, the you know...
00:01:15
Speaker
ah checking the till on that stuff but otherwise yeah and anything goes i like where it' other platforms are so prohibitive like i that's why i could never like really get track like i've had stuff on tiktok the occasional post uh like do some numbers and i i need to start like posting clips from the show or something on on there like that but it's like random shit will just get copyright not even copyright strikes which has happened like when i did like the good fellows Layla music over order
Platform Censorship Experiences
00:01:44
Speaker
66. Like they, they, they, yeah, they, they struck that down, but it'll just be like, I can't even barely make anything like political jokes with someone like trying to report it. Uh, like, like just like, uh, fucking Chaney dying. And I just did that, that clip of, um,
00:02:01
Speaker
what's what's his name from the thing um Keith David being like welcome to hell from I feel like Tales from the Hood or something yeah and then like that got reported I'm like what that's not even it's not hate speech like yeah I hate Chaney but like that's not ah yeah I don't know an informed guess you know there are two places in track right it's very one place he could have went if There is an afterlife. Vis-a-vis.
Twitter's Content Moderation Challenges
00:02:32
Speaker
I think he
00:02:35
Speaker
Exactly. Speaking to the freedom you know that you know at least Twitter provides, like it's it's not even more so freedom. is I feel like there's just like so much content that's uploaded on there like on a minute-to-minute basis that there's just impossibly no way for them to moderate at all. But the the thing that I like is like before we started recording, I went on YouTube and I recorded that sequence of Patty going, you're going to have to swallow your cum, Kevin. Yeah. And I upload it on there just because I felt like it, you know, and it's funny, you know, and and it's going to stay there and and no one's going to touch it. You know, um you do that on YouTube, you know, like that clip right there. It's probably demonetized, probably buried in surges. But it's because i I looked for it
00:03:19
Speaker
Right. But it's still up there. And and also, yeah
YouTube vs TikTok Content Flexibility
00:03:22
Speaker
yeah, I do. I enjoy YouTube more than like someplace like TikTok or whatever, because I do can still squeak some of my edits and stuff through the leftovers. I have one up there when this was before. Yeah.
00:03:36
Speaker
I've seen multiple sides of what's going on with Jordan Peterson now. Some people say it was like is his like daughter said it was mold. And then some people said, like, that's bullshit that some people are. That's like kind of a right wing thing now to the start blaming shit on mold. So I don't I don't know who's to say a rolling.
00:03:55
Speaker
Yeah, ah but he's he's kind of vanished recently, but this was like a clip where when after his initial like hell stuff going on and then everything he did publicly after that, he would just like start crying, breaking down crying in like
Creative Content Creation and Critique
00:04:09
Speaker
interviews and stuff. And this one he's just like talking about matter. He's like, what matt what's matter?
00:04:13
Speaker
What matters? What light matters? Yeah, and then I just put the leftover like that slow piano music to that. yeah
00:04:25
Speaker
yeah left over mark eccleson could do an amazing jordan peterson i just don't think he has that in him he's gonna be for sure Matt Johnson should do that biopic after the Bourdain movie. Do the movie just becomes the biopic.
The Art of Biopics
00:04:43
Speaker
Honestly, if he keeps them as interesting on the level of Blackberry, I'd be like, I'd be fine with that. I mean, I would like to see him like do other stuff. know, I. Oh, shit. I'm making biopics than Benny Safdie is.
00:04:56
Speaker
Oh, Baba Booey. Okay, before before we get too far into the discussion, I just have ah one thing to say.
00:05:07
Speaker
With your feet on the air and your head on the ground, try this trick and spin it. Yeah. Your head will collapse if there's nothing in it and you'll ask yourself, where is mind? My mind.
00:05:21
Speaker
I thought about singing and I was like, no, it's actually funnier if I just like speak. This is like spoken poetry.
Music in Media: A Critical View
00:05:27
Speaker
It's a mantra at this point. It's like a Catholic prayer. Very fittingly enough.
00:05:32
Speaker
Because the first time you do a Where Is My My Needle Drop, it's like it's like hackery. But then you do it again then it's like funny. but then you do it another time. it then loops back around to like profound. I'm like, wait, wait a minute. Lindelof, what are you doing? This is crazy.
00:05:50
Speaker
When that happens, you you stop and you think to yourself, oh, you meant that shit. Like you, act you, you love the pixies at least. and and, and in the way that where you feel as though it's the center of your project. And, and the thing is, is like, like you said, when it happens the second time, you're like, okay, all right, this is pretty cutesy. You know, I see what you did there by the time it comes around that third go around you're like you know what i think i see what you're doing there buddy buckaroo yeah and it helps it if everything else around it is so strong it's like i can't poke holes in this man you use whatever goofy song you want but they do it does actually
Paul Feig's Career Trajectory
00:06:25
Speaker
feel like it but maybe just because he's like he's like programmed us by that final time where i'm like no yeah that's like part of the show this is like we're occasionally gonna get a where's my mind needle drop And and and and yeah after a certain point, like the first time you hear it, it's definitely in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way. But then we start to receive it in this like slowed down, like piano, like similar to the score itself. And you know what?
00:06:53
Speaker
I'll allow it because it because it it almost does sound like something made for the show. I don't remember when the first time I heard that, like, slow piano. Like, there has been, like, don't—it probably started before The Leftovers. There was just a trend of, like, trailers using slowed down covers of, like like, popular music and stuff that got really creative. Like, the— ah The craziest example was like, which Bayformers one was it? It may have been like the last one he did, but it was like a a dramatic version of Do You Realize by the Flaming Lips. There's this trailer like that's been floating around. I've i've seen it in theaters a couple of times. It's like the Sidney Sweeney, Amanda Seyfried film. Have you seen the trailer for that one?
00:07:38
Speaker
no not. No. no I know what that is, if but I haven't seen the trailer. Yeah. So they do that trope, right? But it's with that s Sabrina Carpenter song where it's like, please, please, please don't prove I'm right. and but But it's like horror themed. This is a Paul Feig directed film, by the way. and And like, I'm just watching that unfold and I'm like, i have never...
00:08:02
Speaker
considered watching a film less than that. What's you know what's going on with Paul Feig? Because like I wanted the route for him post Ghostbusters. like you know like That's not even my favorite movie, but I was like, hey, I feel like he got a raw deal there. like he He didn't do anything. If anything, he understands that assignment better than the son of the guy who made the original Ghostbusters. ah Yeah. And so I i'd hold no bad blood of him ah over that. But then it's just been a lot of streaming slot. The one movie I like that he did post that I i thought the first A Simple Favor was good. and But then even that got
Anna Kendrick's Career Reflections
00:08:41
Speaker
a streaming. so Like I haven't watched the Amazon sequel he did to that where I'm like, why? it's it's fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like mind blowing or anything, but it's kind of it it's just like what if we took the the plot of like a ah a Gone Girl S thriller and this is like we did like the comedy version of that. But not in like a spoof way of like where it's like, no, we'll take the the mystery and thriller elements or like somewhat take it seriously. But it's like, yeah, we're just going to. But then we'll also have ah what's her name from Pitch Perfect? Blaking on everyone. Anna Kendrick. We'll also have a scene of her singing along to Auntie Up ah in in in her car and rapping along to it. And that'll be great. And I'll be like, yeah, do agree. That is great. the More of Anna Kendrick rapping.
00:09:34
Speaker
I like Anna Kendrick. I miss her being in real movies, you know? Yeah, movies that aren't on streaming. And i've I'm going to say this is someone who even liked, like, at least one of the streaming
Actor-Director Film Preferences
00:09:45
Speaker
movies she did. The one that she did from, wow, can't remember anyone's name today. The guy who was on a New Girl, who's, like, the the main guy that everyone swoons over over that. Joe Johnson is his name or something like that.
00:10:00
Speaker
that might be the director i may have said instead yeah yeah uh you you know who i'm talking about jake johnson the jake he he did a movie for hulu and she was like the the female lead of that he like he directed and and starred in a in ah a movie that that he did that was actually pretty decent uh from it's like last year self-reliance shout out self-reliance did see that movie that movie was pretty good um i would say it was like because he directed it right um i i felt that it was a very fine first feature for an actor i prefer movies like fool's paradise or the pool man because those are very audacious big swings so That reliance was very safe. It felt like it was like a very clean metaphor.
00:10:48
Speaker
ah the the film itself didn't have any moments where it was like formally daring, you know, but it was solid enough. And and what it was setting out to accomplish, it did so in spades.
00:11:00
Speaker
um Also, we're doing movie
Justin Theroux's Multifaceted Career
00:11:02
Speaker
trivia, right? And I just wanted to bring this up because we didn't talk about this before, but like I knew that Justin Theroux wrote, ah but did you know how many movies he's written and what movies he's written?
00:11:13
Speaker
ah Okay, i'm good I'm going to not even open IMDb to guess. I don't know the exact number of that he has written, but I It's small number.
00:11:25
Speaker
Okay, he's co-written it... least two Ben Stiller movies. zoul is Did he co-write Zoolander? One of them. The first one? No, the second one. No, shit. Justin, no.
00:11:41
Speaker
just Okay. he He's Go write another Ben Stiller movie. Tropic Thunder. He did. he did with with the other Ethan Coen as well. Okay. there There are two movies left. You want to take a swing at what those two movies could be.
00:11:56
Speaker
Are they comedies? um No. one of them has like One of them is comedic, but it's predominantly another genre. Another genre written by Justin Theroux.
00:12:11
Speaker
Fuck. Big cast. Big, big cast. and Okay, you know It's too broad right now. It's a musical from the 2010s. That's all the almost helping me. but I'm like, wait a minute. They didn't make musicals in the 2010s. It was illegal. Would you believe me if I said that this musical in the 2010s also starred Tom Cruise?
00:12:35
Speaker
Wait, Rock of Ages? he Justin Theroux co-wrote Rock of Ages. That's insane. Not as insane as the last movie that you you did have not guessed. I don't even know if I, like, if I give you a hint, it may give it away, but I'm just going to tell you anyways. He wrote a Marvel movie.
00:12:56
Speaker
One of, so maybe one of the Iron Man? You're right. Iron Man 2. He wrote Iron Man 2. The one no one cares about. Elon Musk. Yeah.
00:13:09
Speaker
ah or That's a crazy filmography ah for writing. And his acting filmography is also interesting. Like, just trying to remember what the first thing that I even... i mean, because i didn't see... ah Mulholland Drive until late, you know, like i didn't become a Lynch guy until, you know, that was maybe within the last 10 years. And then I saw Mulholland Drive. So like when that first came out, that definitely wasn't my first intro to him. Honestly, it could have been the stuff that he did with the the Stella guys. Cause like speaking of his comedy adjacent thing, I forgot he was in that Michael Showalter movie, The Baxter. ah He was also he plays Jesus in the David Wayne movie, The Ten, ah which in hindsight is very funny. ah Yeah, it's probably one of those that I saw him in first, honestly. Oh, and then I didn't know this at the time, but he is even if he didn't write the first New Lander, he is the evil dreadlocked DJ. And ah he yeah, he he's playing Tom Hanks son in um a Zoolander.
00:14:19
Speaker
He's playing Chet Hanks. Chet Hanks, the son, actually. but yeah The funniest credit on ah Justin Theroux's filmography, in my mind, is... oh American Psycho. may Maybe American Psycho is the first thing I saw him in.
00:14:35
Speaker
I think that was the first thing I had seen him in. Like, is like I watched that movie pretty young and... Yeah. Yeah. You see a bunch them there. But the funniest role in Justin Theroux's filmography, just because like after watching The Leftovers, I'm like, this guy's hilarious. What else is he doing? He was the tramp in the Lady and the Tramp live action remake that they made on Disney Plus.
00:14:54
Speaker
Like he is has. so i'm I'm just hearing this now for the first time. There was a tool Lady and the Tramp remake. There was. And he was the tramp. Like Kevin Garvey.
00:15:07
Speaker
ah That's so funny. ah He was also in, I forgot, the ah Jonah Hill, Emma Stone Netflix miniseries Maniac, which was actually solid.
Patrick Somerville's Collaborations
00:15:18
Speaker
that was that was That was a good miniseries created by Patrick Somerville and it says here, nobody. No, it was Carrie Fukunaga was the other guy. I was about to roll with it with you. was about to say, don't look it up. It's not worth it. You know, like it leave it to the past. Which Patrick Somerville, a writer on leftovers. That makes sense. Cause I knew, yeah i knew some of the leftovers people went on to, they had done ah some other HBO stuff like station 11 and Somerville actually.
00:15:49
Speaker
ah okay So he did station 11 and he did made for love that short lived. Yeah. ah Kristen Melody series, which was I watched the first season. i didn't I don't know if I finished the second season, but I liked it Even if by that time I was like, Kristen Melody is always getting like trapped by by men and scenarios like this. is She needs she needs to find another role. She needs an escape rope like in Pokemon and just get out of that cave.
00:16:18
Speaker
Right. Mm hmm. ah Yeah, no, um just like when it comes to this whole like, ah you know, Justin Theroux angle, like the the last funny thing that I found before I came on this podcast was, did you know that he did a fake Hollywood roundtable parody and uploaded it to YouTube? Have have you heard about this?
00:16:41
Speaker
No, that sounds funny. So it's like a full hour long special where him and like a few other like improv comedians and like a couple of them are recognizable. They do a parody of it completely in character. And it's like one of them had like one line in several. Oh, it's Rajat Shoresh and Jeremy Levick. I love those guys because they they do like Heidecker level commitment to the bits. ah ah Like I think it's where Levick is like pretending to be some kind of Jordan Peterson-esque guy conservative who goes to like – campuses and it's like when when you give up when you give a mouse a cookie and he's like you said he's a brave mouse where did I say that what's a brave mouse define a brave mouse the funniest bit I saw in that I didn't watch the whole thing I just kind of jumped around but Justin Theroux's character like fictionalized version of himself for the show he's ah getting awards talks for starring in a film called MLK's Dresser laughing
00:17:49
Speaker
um yeah And the whole bit is that he's this kind of like, you know, uppity, like upper class white guy. And he's and he's like on the round table. He's like, well, the character is completely fictional. We just made it up. But it's like we decided to imagine what it would be like for a dresser.
00:18:06
Speaker
it's It's really funny. I need to watch this. That's that's incredible. ah Yeah.
Tim Burton's Directorial Insights
00:18:12
Speaker
ah he's He's funny. ah Also, he was a highlight of, i am willing to give this movie another chance, but I didn't care for Beetlejuice Beetlejuice. Or maybe I was just primed to...
00:18:24
Speaker
ah I think I think I people were on its nuts too much so that I went in thinking like, oh, is burn like back back? And it's like, well, he's like he's like 20 percent more awake than he's been in like two decades. So and and and like that, which is better. But I was like, OK, guys, calm down. He's not like this isn't like burn classic. Like he's not fully there.
00:18:48
Speaker
No, no. This is like on par with – Beetlejuice Beetlejuice is on par with like Big Fish. It's like a 60%, 70% of the way. Oh, see. I rank Big Fish pretty high. I'm like – I didn't mean to offend, you know, in the big – I didn't mean to – Us in the Fisher community we're – You know, that that's pretty canonical for me, ah that one. But no, i get i get what I get what you're saying, that this was like before the that steep of a drop-off happened, like if we wound the clock back a little bit And there's bits to it I liked. um Like, you know, I would even...
00:19:24
Speaker
If they did another one, I'd watch it. Yeah, I just, i I think he was like one of the highlights, though. Like some of the cast, they didn't really know what to do with. But like in terms of like the new characters, I feel like he was nailing like every comedic beat they gave to him.
00:19:40
Speaker
And his character's like a slime ball. Like he's like taking advantage of Winona Ryder and shit. But I'm just like, oh, he's just crushing it. Thoreau is amazing at playing like morally dubious people that you still have enough caring for. And with him and Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, he's essentially like taking over like the Jeffrey Jones role from the first movie, which, you know,
00:20:03
Speaker
Thankless task. got Right. You know, you don't want to be in that position, but he makes it his own. He makes you forget about, you know, that kind of energy and brings a new one to it. And, you know, like Justin Theroux, he feels so much like a character actor trapped in like a leading man's body.
00:20:20
Speaker
Like he, he is had such a weird career because if he was born in like the fifties or the sixties, he would be doing like, you know, broad musicals, not broad musicals, broad comedies. And,
00:20:31
Speaker
deep dramas, right? But there's, you know, not as much of that now. So it's like, you know, Apple TV Plus show here, ah you know, series regular role on HBO there, you know, he's he's a television actor when he could have been a movie actor very easily. And when he does show up in movies, he's like one of the most memorable parts of it. ah But now None as more important or memorable as the leftovers. I have to say, like, no matter, like, even with what he did in Mulholland Drive, whenever I think in my mind, Justin Theroux, I'm going to imagine the leftovers. This was his role. This was made for him. Like, think,
00:21:08
Speaker
i i think and ah I guess 20 minutes in to introduce
Podcast Introduction and Focus
00:21:14
Speaker
the show. This is These Guys Got Juice. ah Doug here with Tony. We're back doing those the leftovers. And on that note, since we've already been talking Thoreau, I think we did character by character in the last episode. And I kind of tried to build up to Kevin, but I feel like we just got start with him because like all roads lead to him. So like from him, we can branch out to everyone else. So I feel like like let's let's just start with with with the big dog.
00:21:42
Speaker
uh because it boy is he someone going through like he's capital g going through it capital g capital t capital i going and going through it i think you had posted like that never since uh like no actors really captured like modern ben affleck like e ben affleck the the guy you know like in his public persona and all those All those pictures we see of him smoking, like that vibe, is has it's like but it's been bottled. in and in And his essence has been captured. And Justin Theroux is like channeling it.
00:22:16
Speaker
He just feels like a man completely at the end of his rope. And yet he's in an inverse scenario from where he was in the last season where he spent so long trying to ignore everything that was happening around him. And now he's in a position where he's trying to actively ah complete or solve a part of a a resolve a part of himself. And, you know, obviously there comes in with Patty, who we'll get into very as we go along. But then there's also, you know, like this whole mystery that's happening with these three missing girls. And there's this connection of how close Kevin is to this mystery himself as this ah is all unfolding.
00:22:57
Speaker
But to tie it back into the whole like Ben Affleck thing, The reason that I think that Garvey and and Thoreau as Garvey is such a great representation, at least from the public persona of Affleck, is, you know, he's this guy in his middle age, you know, usually people are kind of winding down and instead he's reaching like the craziest level.
00:23:16
Speaker
midlife crisis ever he you know he's just you know no longer with his wife he's with this new girlfriend they have a baby you know what what's going on he's don't he's like he's like hotter than he's ever been weird like wait yeah he's he's like hotter now why he he looks sad and kind of like shit how is he hotter this is fucked up naked like whenever he's not working Like he's always like without a shirt or something for whatever reason. But there's so much pain and anguish. You can tell that he's not like ah having as much fun as he is trying to lead on. Because just, you know, for a little bit of table setting from where we left off from the last season, ah we now have the Garvey clan moving into a new town.
Family Dynamics in 'The Leftovers'
00:24:00
Speaker
They're moving to Jarden, you know, Miracle, Texas. Yeah. The idea being that nobody was departed in this town and now it's being seen as this safe haven, which just translates to a small military state because they've got like a whole chain link fence around it, guards, all that stuff.
00:24:19
Speaker
Enforced by what seems to be three park rangers. Like we we never see, even when shit hits the fan later, like deep in the season, i was like, oh, well, they have like reserve rangers or something they're going to call in. We only really see like those handful of, right? I'm like, you guys went through all these security procedures to make, build this like police stare, like this military state, like you said, that pretty much operates on, they're like, they're like their own sovereign government. But I'm like, you need more people to enforce this. is like Which we'll get into some other characters, but i'm like, is that why John just gets to do whatever he wants? Because they're just like, well, we don't have enough people to like really enforce everything, especially within the border. So and the community could see of what he's doing as a service. They're like, don't if you want to burn some psychic's house down. That's fine, John. you should Go ahead.
00:25:11
Speaker
they They see that as a public service. and And that extends to like how the government in the first season treated cult leaders. And I feel like that that theme of like, you know, stomping out anybody who has these kinds of ideologies early on is something that carries over. um And, you know, like.
00:25:29
Speaker
The idea of Jardin being this like you know safe haven is the protection that it has. It's more so the rep like what people view it as. like If there wasn't that whole camp of people outside who were dying to get in there, but weren't doing anything to get into that space, if they weren't there hyping it up that same way, it wouldn't have the sense of security also. It's these all these people... buy almost Almost like... ah Almost like America itself.
00:26:00
Speaker
One could say. ah i could say One could say that we see a little bit of a January 6th by the end of this, no? Yeah, yeah, a little bit. Yeah, but like what you said, it's like the shared perception or bought into delusion that this place is safer. And we see that through, like we'll get to some of the other characters who've like lived there beforehand, but like...
00:26:21
Speaker
ah you get the sense of like when you're getting the tour of the town, it's like these people are almost, some of them are like entrapped in amber. Like they're just repeating things that they did that day on the 14th because they're like, this could have been the thing that saved us. I don't know. And they're just like throwing everything at the wall because no one knows. And it's like, just like everywhere else, even if no one was ah departed from there, they still have no better understanding of what's happening.
00:26:49
Speaker
you know, this this new this new normal, yeah ah like they they don't know why they're different. They just know that it it happened and they think that that has to have significance. And then other people agree like, yeah, that must have significance. I'll pay a thousand dollars for this water now. So the thing that's interesting is that when i when I was being introduced to this whole scenario, this idea that there was this entire town that had nobody departed, my first thought is, why are these people treating it as a holy land? Wouldn't the idea of this being a rapture, right, that people have experienced—
00:27:27
Speaker
if If let's say, ah you know, everybody who's on earth is the sinful, right? If everybody in this town stayed, wouldn't that mean that this town is the highest concentration of sinners? And would it also mean that what happened in Miracle was by no means a miracle at all, but rather like a purposeful looking over? and And we'll get into it with the characters we get introduced to with later down the line. But John and his family is certainly meant to be like an inverse of what Nora and Kevin are going through. ah But to bring it back to Kevin, you know, like Nora has this baby and she really wants to start this family with Kevin and Jill. um And
00:28:09
Speaker
Like for Kevin, he's just like, fine, sure, we'll do whatever you want. And she's like, we're going to go to Jarden because it's safer and that's going to be the place where I'm going to raise this kid. He doesn't buy into it, really. He's just doing whatever for this moment. And for Kevin, the thing that's motivating him instead is like personal unrest and insecurity with like his position within this family. He's taking on these responsibilities, but it's also like...
00:28:34
Speaker
Like, does is this exactly what he really wants? Is this something that he's going to, like, be able to see through to the end? Or is he more distracted by what's going on in his mind? Right, because we talked about the end of last season. you know He has that ah chance and encounter with Wayne. Makes some kind of wish, and I think our implications to be that like that is in a way what he would you know like he wished for his family back, but then he sees Nora with with Wayne's child on on his on his front lawn. So he's been gifted this fresh start that he gets another chance because in his mind, he know hes still never –
00:29:10
Speaker
actually knows the reason that Laurie left or any of that happened. So in his mind, it's because he blew it. You know, that that's what happened to his family. I mean, and yeah, he was fucking around. He's a fuck up, but it was more complicated than that. It's not just, you know, you know, a lot of characters in this want to just carry the burden of like, ah, this is all on me. And like Kevin, especially, in, embodies that. And so I feel like that's the pressure of like, like you said, he doesn't really buy into the, the jar, the miracle of it all, but he wants things to work out with Nora. Like to the fact
00:29:45
Speaker
Where like before they even move there, we see when they're ah like legally adopting Lily that he's like nervous about the the adoption process, the interview for that. That like Nora kind of has to coach him through. it She's like, say it was meant to be. And so you put in your own words, but then he kind of just defaults to what she said because he like can't think of anything. He's like, yeah, it was it was meant to be.
00:30:07
Speaker
I like that the guy is just like, so do you guys want another? Like, he's just like, hey, you're in the market for babies. We got we got a two-for-one spethal going on, you know? This one's not black, I believe he says. He's like, I mean, we got another He that.
00:30:22
Speaker
Oh, geez. Yeah. i i don't know if you're just into black babies, but we got other ones. i don't know. I love doors. because I was like, oh, we're good. If you if a baby arrives at your doorstep, you know, like you're not going to just throw that one away. You know, like, what are you doing? I thought it's like that kid needs a parent, you know, without. Them knowing where it comes, because we find out later that Jill knows that Tommy dropped that baby off, but she has kept that. Like, that was like a secret to to like Tommy doesn't want, I guess, for the baby. Because, like, if it being Wayne's baby would be a danger to the child, like, if people other people knew. Like, whether that's other believers of Wayne that could still be scared out there even though he's dead. But then also...
00:31:05
Speaker
don't know, the government might just want the baby or something to be like, ah, we don't want another cult rising up around this baby. We better secure it. But it's also like the baby isn't really a focus of the season in that same kind of way. Like, obviously, people are worried about the baby. It's just a baby. hair of But it's just exactly it's just a baby. So like for us at this point in the series, I feel like the start of this season to the end, I've seen enough. And I'm just kind of like, I don't think anything's magical going on with this baby. Yeah. I don't know. as special as we were sold it was. We had a fraudulent baby.
00:31:39
Speaker
Which yeah could could be an extension of like, was what's so special about Wayne himself other than that he told people that his hugs hugs were magic. I mean, that's still up in the air. I feel like, yes, he's a fraud in the sense that he was he's grifting people, but...
00:31:54
Speaker
maybe his visions he had were legit, you know, like when he says he saw his death or these other things, i'm like, could that just be, he's on a bunch of drugs? Sure. But maybe that's true. Like, like, I don't know that that makes him special because of
Kevin's Supernatural Struggles
00:32:05
Speaker
the way things are. It's like a lot of people just see shit now. So it's like, I don't, you know, like he could be tapped into something and then thinking that that it means something that he is some kind of like a holy man. Like we see, ah you know, as we see through other characters this season, know, And like there's a conversation that ah Kevin has with his dad before he moves to Jarden, which, yeah, Kevin Sr.'s out.
00:32:31
Speaker
He's out of the loony bin. And he said, ah what did you do to get them to stop talking? Like the voices that he was hearing is was like, I just finally did what they were telling me to do. And um they kind of there's this repeated notion other characters bring it up of like,
00:32:49
Speaker
How do you know that that's not real just because no one else is seeing the the people that he's talking to? And Kevin's response to that is like the laws of fucking nature or something. And and his dad's like, well, I don't know if you've noticed, son, but the laws of nature, you know, like they're not what they used to be or something like they're a little off these days. So I feel like that that's just comes with the territory now that, you know, like there's weird shit. Some people see weird shit, but it's Yeah, to the the specifically to the baby, like unless I'm forgetting something in season three, like I don't think there's like there's no like prophecy or important thing. It's just a baby.
00:33:26
Speaker
And you know what? It's just a baby. That's all we should expect of it. You know, let's not give it any kind of messiah of things, you know, it's not fair to the baby to put all that on it. Exactly. You're not going to give it a good life if you get put all that pressure on it. You know, it's just it's what's fair. um The I wanted to get to something where, ah you know, with last season, we were talking about like how people are trying to move on. You know, how ah is the show about how people try to something happen and they try to like now move past that. I feel like with this season, it's now taken a different perspective where it's not so much about how we move on, but rather how we have the things that we care about and how we want to hold them closer. And in the end times, how that becomes harder and harder to do. And having a place like Jardin be this central location where all of this is coming to a head just makes sense. Considering it is a walled off city that claims to be like the last refuge for, you know, ah the holy. and all
00:34:25
Speaker
It's like Israel in World War Z or so. I haven't i actually haven't seen World War Z, but my impression is that they built a wall and that kept the zombies out or something. i don't know. It's as disgusting as it sounds. is What happens. ah But when it comes to um Kevin, as he's going through this and as we've alluded, you know, he's got this unrest and it's mainly because like Patty Levin is back. He's seeing her as a vision, as we had seen, like, at the end of season one. But now it's, like, a consistent thing where she's, like, this specter that's haunting him. But personally, when when she first comes on screen and she starts, you know, doing this, ah my mind immediately registers this as this is not a ghost. We're not watching a ghost. This is an extension of Kevin. And the reason I feel that way is because I feel as though she doesn't really, like,
00:35:19
Speaker
predict anything that wouldn't be outside of the realm of his own understanding and also like her language is very simple she's not like when she spoke at the end of season one she did have a very particular way of speaking but now she's speaking in a very different way and i would almost say like it was like kevin's idea of like what a nasty patty is Yeah, I could see that. i To me, that almost doesn't, because of like the weird nebulous ground we're in now, I'm like, it could be both. you know like This could be you know a manifestation of his guilt in his subconscious, but also there is something, whether that's literally Patty's ghost or some like psychic manifestation of her that's lingering around Kevin. that it Because like you said, it doesn't... she doesn't really know things that he wouldn't know. And in fact, gives him wrong information, which you could say like, oh, Patty's just fucking with him. Like, that that like why why wouldn't she still be doing that even in death? And it's like, yeah, I think both of those could could be true because there's things that like when he says to her, ah the girls were just gone, like poof, vanished, which contradicts like, because even...
00:36:37
Speaker
what we know of like unwaking, unconscious behavior, you know, like he's sleepwalking again. he you know, later regains those memories of like what happened that directly contradicts. So it's like even him in the back of his head knows that those girls didn't just vanish. But Patty is still telling him that that to me is almost like,
00:36:57
Speaker
uh lying like there is some kind of outside intelligence that with its own pov even if it's not like a one-to-one to like who patty was that is trying to to fuck with kevin because that it is intentionally giving him wrong information like would not not like oh he wouldn't know this at this point so patty doesn't know it's like she's intentionally misleading him at times it's it's tough because she does ride that line from time to time, but then it's also like she does have her own intentions. Like she wants to make his life worse. Right. But it's also, it could come down to the fact that like she, uh, didn't like Kevin, you know, a or B it's like,
00:37:37
Speaker
kevin perceives her that way because like that's what he expects from her right the the fact of the matter is is that it like either interpretation is valid right and i feel like you know like it gives us so much gray room and even going to the point of what you were just saying about the girls disappearing uh you couldn't uh make the argument that joining the guilty remnant is a in a way disappearing so it's like it's one of those obi-wan kenobi's like ah it was true from a certain point of view Yeah, not to be that guy, you know, but ah the the thing for me is that either way, real or not, ah the journey of Patty and Kevin in this season ah are interlinked. And it's not just that, like, ah you know, Patty's back because he has this guilt. That's certainly an element of that. But she also is now crossed over into another plane and she needs to be put to rest. And the thing is, is like there is some kind of otherworldly element to the show. I feel like this season ah confirms that.
00:38:36
Speaker
But the thing is, is that the other world is more just like the purgatory, the like the the separate place from the living. And there's a question of like how much of that is real and how much of that is false and how much of that is even... interlinked with the whole departure thing. But what it matters for with Kevin specifically is that he enters into this jardin town and you have like ah in the neighbor, like an accelerated version of himself, like the evil version almost where he's, you know, just like burning people's houses down, beating people up.
00:39:09
Speaker
And for him, like he's just feeling less and less adequate. He feels less and less adequate within like, you know, nor is his relationship, right? Like he's just like, sleepwalk and you don't even like care. Like what's going on with that? That's not a healthy relationship. And it all just leads to him being suicidal. Like quite literally, like he stops seeing the value in living and instead sees more answers in dying and sees that like that act would actually improve the lives of those around him. it would be liberating for him and for everyone else. Like that's one of probably his, but the highlights, ah Justin Theroux acting moments is when Patty's telling him of like, cause like we've talked about, like the girls went missing. He was there that night. We, when he comes to this pond or this, you know, this, this body of water that people regard, like, Oh, the, the water from Jardins holy, it's totally drained. You know, there's fish flopping around.
00:40:05
Speaker
He comes to, he's got a cinder block tied to, ah you know, his, his leg. And Patty's like, okay, what do you think happened? Like you have a cinder block.
00:40:16
Speaker
You jumped into the water. You were ready to die. She's like, you know, some people commit suicidal acts as like for attention or for all these other reasons. Like, and then there's the people like, ah like she you know draws a line to herself. like, like us who really want to die. ah And, and he's like, I don't want to die. Like, and like, there's this, he does. We've talked about how good he is at like playing like loss. Like there's like the like a puppy dog look in his eyes where it's like he's like right he's like trying to convince himself that. And when he's saying that, he's like, no, right. I don't want to
Kevin and Nora's Relationship Dynamics
00:40:49
Speaker
die. You know, like he's like, that can't be right. That doesn't track. I'm I'm happy. b
00:40:57
Speaker
Right. The thing is like him and Nora's relationship is based around like ah superficiality almost where it's like they they are putting on the airs of being happy and and he has the elements of being happy, you know, like there's a kid. Yeah. Like where're we're a unit.
00:41:12
Speaker
Yeah, but the the problem is is that he feels so inadequate and largely because he feels as though he is going down the same path as his father. The idea that his father kind of had a psychotic break and lost it. He sees this experience with Patty and his suicidal ideation to be the same thing. And it makes sense that he would be so torn up about it because he just wants to have that normal life. The problem being is that he doesn't understand like the exact situation meaning of these things and it takes the whole season to kind of figure it out but this is a season where people are telling each other like you know what it means like this is like you just have to do what needs to be done and it's these people who need to come to those realizations Kevin the most so
00:41:52
Speaker
Yeah, because like we said, you can have either interpretation of like, even though it does feel the most like at this point, there is some supernatural element. You can read the Patty stuff in multiple ways. You can read a lot of stuff and in multiple ways. But it's more about he has to decide what ah what he believes because like he he was able to – kind of footsie around like there's something weird happening with him last season he's sleepwalking everything with the dogs yada yada yada etc but there's it's just reached such a the boiling point now where it's like you can't ignore it and you have to decide either you are mentally ill and you need treatment for this or it's something really weird that then you have to deal with so ah but decide Kevin and then make a decision and and it's
00:42:41
Speaker
It's like the unconscious version of him is it's been a while since I took a psychology class, but is is the id the part that acts unconsciously, like without thinking or something? believe you're right.
00:42:54
Speaker
yeah it's the instinctive, the impulsive sense of the brain. Right. So, like, that's, like, what the unconscious Kevin is because it's like, okay, I'm just going kidnap Patty. Like, she's causing all this distress in my town. Just fucking kidnap her. Deal with it. Deal with it that way. And then when he's sleepwalking, he's like, all right, Virgil told me I got to kill myself. I'm fucking get a cinder block. Like, it's just directly... Yeah, like I'm going to do the thing like that's that's the solution. And whereas in his waking life, Kevin's like, I don't know what the fuck to do. Like it was like has he has he has to decide what he even thinks reality is before he can like make a decision. And he's too afraid to do that because of what the implications are.
00:43:37
Speaker
Well, it's just like the thing is, is he does know the answers. Everyone knows the answers, but everyone's kind of putting on airs like everyone's doing things because they think that that's the thing they're supposed to do for things to work.
00:43:48
Speaker
And with with Kevin, ah you know, there are a lot of things that are just subconscious that are happening because like they move into the town and they get like temporary wristbands. They don't get permanent resident wristbands. and And the reasoning is like, oh, you have to live there for two weeks. The problem is is like they're already like their dog has been locked up. Their neighbor is like that was one of the most fucked up things. I forgot. I forgot. like as soon as they get in, like they didn't even know about them. Like you got to tell people if you need to quarantine their animals like that's fucked up.
00:44:21
Speaker
Like that ah that was not exactly great living conditions either. You just got those dogs stacked up on one another at all times of the day. Yeah, this isn't like a nice dog hotel or something. These are just like straight up kennels, like cages. It's like just just throw them in there.
00:44:34
Speaker
I don't think any of them are being walked, you know, and that's an issue like on my books. and And that's that largely goes to John, who, like I said, is like the
Jarden's Community Dynamics
00:44:42
Speaker
like the the neighbor who's just like completely on the other side of Kevin and what he was with Mableton, where he was like very ah careful and considerate of the rules and the people who live there. He still made mistakes, you know. But with John, it's like he is a peacekeeper who knows vengeance first. where He's like, i I decide the rules. And John has vehemently decided that.
00:45:05
Speaker
Yeah. ah Yeah. There's stuff like the departure that we can't explain, but reality iss reality. Like he's not in doubt about like what things mean. he's He's a hardcore skeptic in like that. I don't know what would even convince him like short of like all the shit that happens at the end of of the season. But like like. Like his psychic friend, which is a friend he knew from like childhood ah whose house he burns down. Like I don't think there's anything that guy could have done to convince John that he was for real. Like like john John is pre-decided that all of this is bullshit, that all these guys got to go.
00:45:43
Speaker
Well, and and for him, he's in a position where it's like if he believes that that is real, then that also changes like the meaning of the town itself. And as we were saying, like there are there's a lot of routines to this place and there's like a prewritten code of like what, you know, we do here and anything new that's added to that pot, he snuffs it out. And that thing like the show, it's also doing a thing where that's obviously thing.
00:46:08
Speaker
immigration commentary. A lot of this is about like what happens when like the border gets tightened up in these ways. And then it's also this idea of like, ah you know, they don't want Eden to burn. They want it to like sustain as much as it can. Bringing it back to Kevin, it's like he's in this place and he feels like an imposter. He feels like he's unworthy of it. He's again, the wristband.
00:46:29
Speaker
Constantly seeing the, you know, ah neighbor who's doing the thing, protecting the neighborhood, but doing it in an efficient way, but an aggressive way that also challenges his own position in the town. It's it's a decisive way. It's the opposite of Kevin.
00:46:45
Speaker
Kevin's kind of wishwashiness of like, I don't know what the right thing is to do. So, like you said, like that that's only adding to his insecurities. Even even if he is like, yeah, even if you don't know John the longest time, like once he goes along with that ride along with him and he goes to like finds that psychics trailer and stuff, he's like, OK, John's a little unhinged. But that's still that's like a decisiveness that he is lacking. Like that's really only shit that unconscious Kevin would do, you know.
00:47:15
Speaker
and And I feel like through most of the season, Kevin's kind of in that rut until we get to like the big decision for him to like meet John's father. Right. And again, inverse. OK, here's here's the thing, because I always assumed it was John's father. But there's the line, i think, in the finale where Erica asked where the son was and he says, your dad's to the mom. But that could just be. Yeah, that's right. No, shes he's her dad. That's right.
00:47:42
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. Inverse family, opposite magical grandparent. And also, like, he yeah he's ah not crazy, another inverse thing, right? And with, ah he's he's not crazy, but he's a bad person because it's revealed that he's like a pedophile, right? Right. Right. Well, i I like how much that leaves to like, it's not even like a mystery box thing, but it just infers it from interaction because that feels real to like we're seeing, you know, we jump around perspectives, but we're mostly falling through Kevin's eyes. So this is like what he's piecing together through the interactions with this family. But my read of it is...
00:48:20
Speaker
OK, so we know John went away to prison for attempted murder. That was for shooting Erica's dad. And there was some kind of abuse sexual in nature because he makes reference to like the cursed thing in between his legs or or something like that. Like that's maybe where John shot him even like shot him in the dick or something. ah But make that illusion. Yeah.
00:48:40
Speaker
Yeah. So, ah it but the question is who, because when Kevin brings that, like he says that I hurt John, but that doesn't, I don't know if that's literal in terms of like, John was the victim of the abuse or he did something to John's family. And that caused like, that was the, the hurt because when Kevin brings that up in the finale, it's like, I'm so sorry that, you know, Virgil hurt you. And John, yeah,
00:49:08
Speaker
Well, there's there's multiple ways you can interpret his reaction of like, yeah, someone who's a victim of that stuff doesn't want to. Like, if you acknowledge that you are a victim, that's kind of depowering of the thing of like, no, you don't know what you're talking about. Or it could be that Kevin does not quite have the facts right that it could have happened to someone. could be one of the kids, the grandkids, because like they do seem pretty adamant. Both parents are like, do not go see your grandfather. So ah and we'd never know.
00:49:36
Speaker
what happened to the daughter to put her in her state of unrest, you know? So it's, yeah it's it's, it's, it's fuzzy. Like, cause I think you could have the read of like, she was a victim of Virgil and that's what set everything off because they were born before he went to, prison like they were just young when the departure happened, he was still in prison, but they were already around.
00:50:00
Speaker
yeah So that they could have potentially have been the victims of the the grandchildren could have. But it's it's it's not it's not 100 percent clear. It could have been the wife. He could have been abusing his daughter. Like ah because I think also she has like hearing loss. She has a hearing aid. I think that was because she was right there when John shot him. That like maybe that like the gun went off in her face or something. And then she lost hearing in one ear or something that that's my read of that.
00:50:28
Speaker
I think that all of these are like very possible, right? And like obviously, don't know how much we want to go down into the different characters' routes. I will say, though, with what happens with Evie later on in this season, like that would make the most amount of sense, especially with like the lines of dialogue that she has with Erica at the end, right? I think that what you were saying was valid in terms of... like ah how any way it could have went, what the story could be. And obviously, Lindelof, like, leaves that very open-ended. But I do think that Evie as a character, ah with what happens with her later on in the season, it makes a lot of sense, like, contextually speaking, with what she says specifically to Erica in that final scene.
00:51:11
Speaker
um But then... Yeah, she her holding up the sign saying, you understand, like, I don't understand why this happened, why you're doing this. Because that's... like As a viewer, dramatically, yes, there's the parallel. We learned that Erica ah said that she had made, you know, was a local legend about you bury the bird. Three days later, it comes back to life and you make a wish. She had wished that her family would be okay without her because she was planning to leave John and, like, leave Miracle. So...
00:51:42
Speaker
that it'd be like, oh, was Evie referencing that, that she knows somehow? But it would make more sense if this was like, oh, no, this is like the thing in our family we don't talk about, like like this horrible thing that happened to your daughter. And like she hasn't even fully been able to process because you guys just like don't talk. Like your solution is just don't. No one talks to grandpa.
Family Secrets and Communication
00:52:05
Speaker
But you're like not like doesn't seem like they're like sending her to therapy or or like trying to like do the things that I mean.
00:52:13
Speaker
You know, there is no road book for one way that will work for anyone to get over that, but it doesn't seem like they're even actively do that. This is, this seems like, I mean,
00:52:26
Speaker
You know, not to throw my family under the bus or anything because nothing that crazy has happened. But, you know, it's like some families when bad stuff happens, it's like we're just not going to talk about that. We're just going to, you know, we're just going to move forward and soldier on, you know, like if you need on your own to do some stuff, like that's all right. Yeah, like go like go with therapy or whatever. But, you know, like we're that's that we're not going to like, you know, linger on that.
00:52:52
Speaker
on our own kind of beat kind of thing. And, and like the inverse of that is with Kevin's family where it's like, they don't, they do the same thing where they don't talk about their feelings or they don't talk about like what's on their mind, but then they come around to it.
00:53:05
Speaker
like and then they And then they overshare. They're like, we're going to tell each other everything. Like, I love that conversation of like, we see what happened right when he got home at the end of last season with the baby. And they're talking, know, she's talking about moving in. She's like, I have everything in my car. And Kevin's like, well, we don't really, really even know each other. And she's like...
00:53:26
Speaker
All right. What is there to know? And then he tells her right there all the stuff about Patty. He's like, yeah, I sleepwalk. I kidnapped her. And then she wouldn't let me let her go. So then she killed herself. And then I, you know, Matt helped me bury her. and then she's like, oh yeah, I hired prostitutes to shoot me. And, you know, and Jill's there. so she She apologizes to Jill. And she's like, lied to you. I won't do that again.
00:53:49
Speaker
and Jill, of course, gets the the funny line. Like, do I have to admit something crazy, too? We're so crazy. You know what? Like, I i don't know if it's hot take or anything, but I'm kind of glad that Jill is sidelined in the season because I just feel like she has nothing to add to the story anymore. It really does become so much about like Nora and Kevin's journey that like after a point you're like, Jill doesn't really add anything to the story anymore. And it's a shame because Mark Corley is good, but like. She's good, and this was probably the first thing I saw and but like before her moment, like she started blowing up, because like this is even before Once Upon Time in Hollywood. um
00:54:26
Speaker
that That first season, she was crucial to get that insight to the youth and like what is happening in terms of the world. like There was like good world building through her storyline. But yeah, that's not really an element of the show anymore. I mean, like we don't even know what her friend group is outside of...
00:54:44
Speaker
What's John and Erica's son's name? ah Like Michael? ah Michael, yeah. mike Michael's the son. like We find out, we don't even see how this starts other than like they have some, there is some intimacy in terms of emotionally like they embrace, but they're like kind of comforting each other. um then then a couple episodes later, bring up like, oh they're like in relationship a little bit. ah like Because she has the thing of like, is that why you won't fuck me? And then...
00:55:12
Speaker
you know, he's like, I don't do it because I don't know if I love you yet. And then like her, her react. I mean, like it, there it's, it's good. The stuff she's given is good and makes sense for her character. But I agree with you. There's not much more for her to do on top of that other than,
00:55:31
Speaker
be the daughter of Kevin Garvey you know like that that's like the importance of like no Kevin you have a family to get back to you have a daughter you know like they're like that's like a physical reminder of his responsibilities like that that's the the main purpose but the glimpses we do get into like what's happening with her socially and emotionally are interesting like that one scene like with my before we you know we even know that there is a relationship there or it hasn't started with with Michael that like you know she comes to his house and it's like are you alone and he's like starts tearing up and he's like yeah and then they embrace because like she just she just gets it without like knowing specifically what's going on she's like yeah i she if it wasn't for amy she would be alone in the house most of the time you know like what was going on home in mapleton and and
00:56:18
Speaker
And who knows what Amy's deal? She might not even been like an actual human or whatever. It's like we we don't know. That will never that will never be a dog killers plot. Who
Supernatural Acceptance in 'The Leftovers'
00:56:29
Speaker
knows? Yeah. ah the The thing with ah Michael is that like he he doesn't really have much to do, but he does have a very important part when it comes to the whole plot later on when when Kevin does have to, you know,
00:56:43
Speaker
meet up with his grandfather and cross over. we say, ah the the, I really like how we enter into this kind of like, you know, necromancy almost like kind of adjacent to that, where there's like a logic to death and like crossing over into this other realm. And it's this idea that like, up until this point, ah you know, Kevin has been very literal, you know, he's been very like, ah the The real world is all that matters and there's no spiritual plane. ah Him doing this, taking that step to try to solve what's happening with Patty is him surrendering and being like, there is something happening. Right. And it's him doing what his dad said is like, I'm going to listen to the voices because he has before he drinks the poison.
00:57:34
Speaker
ah he asked Patty, he's like, do you want me to do this? And first I thought he was doing reverse psychology because it's like, oh, if Patty doesn't want him to do it, then he should do it. And she kind of does. She says, I do really want you to do this. But then she's like, no, no, no, no wait, Kevin. Because like she is kind of trying to talk him out of it because it's like, well, it and that works with both interpretations of like her representing a part of his psyche that's like self-preservation. Like, no, don't fucking do this. You're about to kill yourself. But then also Patty being scared of like,
00:58:02
Speaker
oh shit, this he's going to get rid of it. This could actually work. like don't don't don't Don't do that. Because ah if if we are to take what she says at face value, she doesn't know if she is like some kind of you know manifestation or the remains of what Patty Levin was.
00:58:18
Speaker
She doesn't know what happens next, like what the next tier is. like She just knows... she killed herself and then she was attached to Kevin like a tick, you know, like that she's there. So if she's like exercised or whatever you want to call it, she's like, do I just not exist then? Like what happens? You know, like, like, like, so it makes sense for her to like be trying to stop whatever that is trying to do. And there's even the implication the show doesn't answer it either way. The fact that this is like,
00:58:46
Speaker
ah a pond evaporated the moment kevin tried to kill himself like yes the town's on a fault line there's air earthquakes every so often there was an earthquake that night but the fact that that moment the all the water drained when kevin tried to kill himself like virgil says like either someone's looking out for you like like oh you are special and god's trying to keep you around or is this is where you have a most powerful adversary i'm like Are you saying that Patty somehow drained the water? I'm like, holy he shit. that's That's a terrifying concept. Because, like, we've only seen her physically manipulate Kevin in terms like she shoves his head onto, like, the stove or, like, pushes him around or something. I'm like, she's um she can make bodies of water evaporate. Like, that's crazy powerful.
00:59:33
Speaker
Well, the the thing is, is that the it going back to like the whole death thing, like if she is worried about him dying in that moment, the question is ah not whether or not she wants him to die. It's the question of like she disappears from existence if he dies. And if she was the one who opened up the fault line to, it you know, empty the lake, then that would infer that she did that just to save him, just to save herself. Yeah. And the other angle could just be that it's like separate from even that. Right. Because the season opens up with like an extended prehistoric. Oh, we didn't even talk about the cave woman. Yeah. I forgot all about that. This this opening when we went to it it. And that was crazy because it lasts for a little bit. But yeah, let's let's talk about it because we see.
01:00:27
Speaker
A pregnant cavewoman and she leaves the cave for something. ah But there's like a cave in and she's separated from everyone. And i mean, they're like killed probably, but also doesn't know because it's, ah you know, like the departure herself.
01:00:45
Speaker
It's Shondri's cat. You don't open the box. The cat's both dead and alive, but like she but has no way of accessing to even find their body. So it's like she just has to keep going because she has this child coming.
01:00:58
Speaker
um And then she has the the baby. oh she dies. It's like a snake bike, right? Like she dies from the poison of of of of of the snake. That's right. Yeah. yeah Yeah. And then so someone finds her and then takes the baby, right? Like that's how that resolves.
01:01:16
Speaker
Exactly. and And all of this is happening right at the lake, is it not? I assume that that's supposed to be the prehistoric, like, yes, this is what becomes Jardin. and but she But when she is on the ground and she is incapacitated, isn't she by the ah body of water?
01:01:31
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. So in my mind, when we see this and then there's this whole hoopla around the the body of water, to me... there's a connection there, right? Like whether it be on a thematics level or if there's a literal thing that happened through time there where for whatever reason, that action in prehistory and Kevin Garvey going in there to kill himself, something about those activities kind of like created that rift. and and and some some Some kind of synchronicity. Yeah. yeah
01:02:07
Speaker
That makes sense. And it sounds like something Lindelof would come up with. Like, that sounds like some kind of lost shit, like, like across time, like this, this thing happening. Does someone reference a cavewoman in the modern era? Like, not specifically that story we saw, but I feel like someone maybe allegorically like references a cavewoman. It could even be Patty. I don't remember. I feel like someone says the word cavewoman in the present day.
01:02:33
Speaker
Not to my recollection is what I'll say. Like, it could be there, but I don't remember it, right? ah all All I know is that there is that connection made, and ah we don't know what the importance of that child even is. We don't return to that ever, right? Yeah, it could just it could just be thematic paralleling, and I think...
01:02:52
Speaker
Lindelof and other writers have talked about like that she is like in essence like one of the first leftover you know like that she is someone who has survived an inexplicable thing and has to figure out like how to move on and how to survive and so thematically that tracks but what you're saying also is on the table like I think lot of stuff's on the table for the show.
Symbolism in 'International Assassin'
01:03:16
Speaker
this is a cluttered table. There's a lot of shit on the table and you can kind of pick up whatever you want off of it. Right. But then there's also this other added layer where it's like, how did the first season open up? But with like the laundromat with that, you know, a baby in the backseat, you know, and what happens in that scene, but a baby is taken away from her, ah from the mother. Right. And then the inverse of that happens here. in words um um yeah the Nobody was taken. Nobody was taken.
01:03:45
Speaker
Except for that baby back then. So it's like maybe that was the thing that like created that, you know, ah circumstance for Jarden to be that way. Again, it could be any of the. Does she see some kind of bird? But when she's dying, the cavewoman, because because she grabs an airbox connection there.
01:04:04
Speaker
Yeah, because she grabs an egg from from the nests like before the the snake bite, I believe. And then she sees that again when like she's looking up at the sky before before she dies. So also there's the bird box connection because...
01:04:20
Speaker
I mean, we're going to have to get to like we hop around however we want, but we're going have to talk about International Assassin, Kevin's stint at as building at the hotel, because in that in the hotel, there is a bird flying around. there's in and so do we know that in, quote, quote, the real world, birds are being buried. And one time when Erica dug it up, it did was alive again. Like she tells the story to Nora of like, like this bird had nothing left. And it's like she gives the time to like how long it could live without oxygen. This is three days later. She digs up this bird and it flu flies out of the box. So I'm like, are all the birds that don't make it?
01:05:02
Speaker
They're in that hotel and some of them just get smashed. So like the the bird she saw is the one that was able to get away. Well, well you you've already opened Pandora's box. You know, you opened the closet to choose the outfit from, right? We got to get into International Assassin, right? Because it's important for Kevin's character, ah of course. And then it's also just like, you know, in my opinion, one of the best episodes of television of all time. Like, this is I can't believe that this is here, you know?
01:05:31
Speaker
It's crazy. And it's such a clever... Because like we said, you can have... The show lets you, even if we're like this season does put its thumb on the scale the most in terms of like, yes, there is supernatural. You can have the read of like Kevin's brain was deprived of oxygen for a long time. And he was, he just saw some crazy shit. And like, it happened to be this, this hotel.
01:05:55
Speaker
I mean, the fact that he goes back there, it's like, okay, well that that's harder to, I mean, the brain's already created that imagery. So I guess that's just just like a comforting thing to return to but you can interpret all of that of like yeah inexplicably sometimes people just go you know like that probably should have killed him he was like out for eight hours like he should not he even if they he was revived eight hours later he should not have been able to like be having conversations with michael You know, like like like he would have had like major, major brain damage from like that much time deprived of oxygen. So like there is still an inexplicableness to that. But that also happens in real life. You know, like people survive shit they shouldn't.
01:06:35
Speaker
People get shot in the face and survive. And, you know, so it's like it it's crazy shit does happen. And it's, you know, like it's like murphy's Murphy's law. What can happen will happen. And then there's also this idea where it's like everybody, like people have ah near-death experiences and they have their own interpretations of like what the afterlife is. And just to kind of like plainly outline it, like International Assassin is about Kevin Garvey killing himself, awakening in this kind of purgatory realm. And he's like...
01:07:07
Speaker
met by most of the people who have died in the series so far. What I do like about this, ah you know, section is that like all of the answers that it could be, ah you know, real or not ah are also answers that to the contrary right like all of these people are dead so that could be a confirmation that this is the afterlife but then that could also just be a confirmation like these are people that kevin knew already these are this just could just be a wizard of oz scenario and i just mean the original movie the wizard of oz that there's more lore now baked around that i'm not talking about that i'm talking about the original interpretation of the movie the wizard of oz
01:07:47
Speaker
that There is only one thing here, though, that I think definitively proves that this is the afterlife. And I think this is kind of like the shining. The Australian guy?
01:07:58
Speaker
No, ah it's actually ah Patty's husband, because in season one, we do see Patty leave the shit at his house. Right. And so we know that at that point, he's still alive. Between that moment and this moment, he died. Right.
01:08:15
Speaker
So it's like, like, there's no way that Kevin would have known about him in that body unless like, if we're to imagine that this is just an imagination of it, then that character just needs to be there for the sake of Patty later on. But everybody else is dead, like canonically, and we know for sure.
01:08:34
Speaker
Like you get there's other stuff you could explain of like yeah he even has a conversation with Lori where she's like, yeah, I know Dr. Patient Confidentiality, but I told you about Neil. So like he would know about the shitting and like that part, but actually what he looks like and the fact that he's dead.
01:08:52
Speaker
he wouldn't have known that. So I agree with you there. And it's interesting where it's like, yes, these are all people who've died essentially since the departure. Like, I like that this could even just be, a so you know, since the laws of nature are up in the air, everything's up for grabs now, where it's like, no, the people who departed, they're still in inaccessible. This is not like some window into like where they went. None of those people are here. You haven't unlocked that DLC yet You gotta whip out mommy and daddy's credit card to get that info.
01:09:21
Speaker
That's some post-launch shit that might come a couple of years down the road. We don't have that ready yet. get Game of the Year edition, if you're lucky. Yeah. If you're lucky. No promises. if you're Well, it might be like Bethesda game scenario where they released like 20 different Game of the Year scenarios. This is like Skyrim. So by the time they get to like the 10th re-release, then you can go to where to the departed people went. Yeah. But yeah you got to wait till the next generation of consoles when when they do the port for that. And then you just get get it that way. But the exactly. great distinction to make there that there's no departed there. We don't have any answers for the people. It's people who've died. And Mary, interestingly, has a room at this hotel because – She's comatose but ah most of the show. we you know We'll get to Matt later, like whatever instances of of her her waking up. But it's like, oh, so someone who's not strictly like dead, like their consciousness is here. you know like If you're in ah ah like brain dead, basically, like this is where you go.
01:10:25
Speaker
So like the the word purgatory or afterlife, I'm using those words kind of like, you know, for lack of a better term. Right. Instead, i I feel like the motivation of this international assassin area is that like ah this is the space where whether you're living or dead, you need to make peace with things. And once you do, you can pass on. And that's what matters most. And and even having ah her there, Mary there.
01:10:51
Speaker
So whether or not like if she were to complete her task, she would, you know, ah be comatose or not. Right. She just needs to sing karaoke. We haven't seen that scene yet. She just has to picture.
01:11:03
Speaker
She's saying already, but she didn't do a good enough job. That's the problem. That's like she's still there. but But, like, we'll get into Matt later, but it's like she does have a moment of lucidity. And the the thing is, it's like maybe, like, she, like, in the afterlife like that, she was, you know, her own international assassin. She made her own, ah you know...
01:11:24
Speaker
leeway forward but because she's getting she's getting balloons delivered so it's like oh does she have her own side quests going on or something where it's like that could be anything which i love the just the implication of all these things you can like we said there's a lot of shit on the table that you can read but love that And it's not in a frustrating way where i'm like, you must answer these things. It's just fun to think about, to just have the like the possibilities at play. It's just like it's just boundless creativity. I just that's I love this episode and the conception of this so much.
01:11:55
Speaker
In the last episode, we made the distinction where this show doesn't really feel like Twin Peaks to us so much. But ironically enough, this is the Red Room. This is like the show's version of that. And ah is in line with the way that the show is delivered, like there aren't like massive gods that are like – crazy beings. We don't see like visions of light that, you know, destroy our perception of reality. Everything is very grounded. So it makes a lot of sense that this world's ah interpretation of the afterlife is just like a kind of nice hotel in the vague city where you're allowed to like take on a persona. And that's maybe being run by nobody in the sense that like that we said, there's no gods. It's like, yeah,
01:12:42
Speaker
There might not even be anything behind. This just could just be here, you know, kind of just like the beach and old where it's like, we just found this. This is just like some weird thing that is this metaphysical space that exists between life and death. And that doesn't that's not like confirming that God's real. And this is like limbo. And he made it it's like this could just be a thing. There's some weird shit. Yeah.
01:13:04
Speaker
Like there there could be the idea that it's like when you pass away, your consciousness moves to a different kind of dimensional realm where this is the only way that you could conceptualize like what you're seeing. Right. Because obviously if people have made that ah conversational point in the past where it's like what you perceive is only what your mind can make sense of and you are creating the perception of life through that. Right. I mean, that's often an interpretation of Twin Peaks in the Red Room. It's like, are these spirits, are they actually into Art Deco aesthetics? Or is that just like the closest human conception to what is going on to this like realm outside of time and space? Or and similarly, like when they're, ah you know, appearing above a gas station, like why is it above a gas station? Because it's like, no, well, that's a human thing. You know, like they're using the language of things we know and recognize. Yeah. And on that point, it's like this idea that um there's like shorthand almost because like the the the namesake of this episode is International Assassin because Kevin Garvey, when he wakes up, he wakes up in the bathtub and he's naked. And there's a closet and he's able to choose what outfit he's going to wear. And he decides to just wear like ah a fine enough suit and and with no tie. and And it just turns out that that outfit is ah the the outfit of an international super spy. And the idea that like he stumbles into that and then all of a sudden like somebody's breaking into his room and he and he knows how to fight and all that. Like it just. Yeah. now Now he's suddenly. That's really funny. Yeah. He's suddenly like James Bond. It's like it's like video game logic of like select your character. slightly unknowingly. And I love the reveal of like because at first you just see this guy attack him. and You're like, what the fuck's going on? And when he meets Virgil in the parking lot, he's like, well, look at you, man. You're an international assassin. Yeah.
01:14:58
Speaker
it's It's like a really stupid, dare I say, like Decker-esque situation where it's like ah he like it's it's like the dumb guy's idea of like the cool version of the afterlife, right? like If, let's say, you were to ask like the dumbest person you know, like what what would you want to do in the afterlife? I'm an international assassin.
01:15:18
Speaker
Zack Snyder, what do you want to do when you die? I want to fucking, there's going some speed ramping and I'm going to fucking be like an assassin. There's going be like so many roundhouse kicks, you know, so many. and And, you know, going back to what you were saying about like the hotel not being run and the fact that there are these people who have, you know, passed on who are in these positions and all of these people, like they're in these custodial ah positions because ah they like they fail to make peace with their own past. And then there's they might have just put on a uniform like Kevin, but then
01:15:55
Speaker
not even remembered why they put it on or what happened because there's a whole thing of them. Like people, not a lot of the people there probably don't know they're dead. well well Well, there's that, but then there's also the warning of don't drink the water. The idea that like the more you get acclimatized to this place, the more you just start to see it as reality rather than what it is as this in-between place that can give you peace. Yeah.
01:16:19
Speaker
Yeah, you don't even remember your old life, which I think is maybe like some ah Greek mythology, if I'm remembering correctly. i think the river Styx or some kind of river, if you drink from it, like that, that's like you would forget like your life or something. So like that, that's all all tied into that because it's like, it's great setup of Virgil's like, do not drink the water, whatever you do. Kevin gets offered some water, even though it's bottled. Like if I saw a bottle of water, I'd be like, Does that count?
01:16:45
Speaker
Like, it didn't come from... Like, he just talking about natural water? I need... ah Let me see the manual. I need to see the manual. But then by the time he gets... It helps on this bottle, you know? This came from a mountain. Truly, it's the same. Right. But then by the time he gets back to Virgil, it's too
Afterlife Interpretations
01:17:00
Speaker
late. very Virgil's like, I was just so thirsty.
01:17:03
Speaker
yeah know? Yeah. It's like the the the that will get, like... but How long can you go? I mean, in normal life, it's like a couple of days you can go without water. But it's like down there, it's probably, I don't know. You know, the they it's not, time probably doesn't even pass the same down there. So it's like how how long until you give it? it's in It's probably subjective too of like how long can someone last without? But then we see Neil. Neil remembers everything. I'm like, is it just because he's just chugging whiskey? Like he's just drinking? Like he's he's not drinking water. He's just drinking alcohol. because He's already Yeah, he's like, i i drink that water bullshit. I got this.
01:17:41
Speaker
Well, the one distinction I want to make about when ah the the Murphy grandfather, the name escapes me, when he like. tri Oh, Virgil. Virgil, when he makes that transition point, right? Like the first thing he does after that whole conversation is he kills the bird. Yeah. And it's this idea that, like, once you become a part of this frab fabric of this purgatory space, you're actively working in opposition of the people who are trying to find this closure.
01:18:10
Speaker
Right. So it's like this this is not a pleasant space. You need to earn ah passing over. And interesting. Because if you die here, it's like there might not be a next place, you know, like that's always the implication of like when violence is on the table of like whether it's whoever Kevin needs to eliminate or the people trying to take him out. It's like if Kevin fails, there might not be coming back like that. This this could just be it.
01:18:39
Speaker
Yet the bird that got killed in that lobby, like that's the representation of like if you do not find peace, you just cease to exist. And the thing is, is that now Kevin needs to like, ah you know, take Patty to a different kind of end, ah not just be to shake her of his consciousness, but also to let her soul go to rest. Despite her herself forgetting why she was there in the first place. She she's now a senator, you know, like ah you know, decoy or not, right? Like, that is still an extension of her. Yeah, I love that idea of, like, the guilty of remnant still exists because a lot of those people die, like, some of them were people who we saw die in the fire or just, like, when shit went crazy in Mapleton, ah including the and the person they had stoned is is is there. ah But it's, like, they exist in this world, but they're not, like, a cult on the fringes. They're, like, oh, what's the inverse? Like, no, they're politicians. Like, this is like she's she's a senator and she's like running for for president that's i fucking love that idea and then the sit down with her when uh because that's like his end is like that he's uh you know contributed to her campaign and then he can get the pistol to assassinate her and i love i love kevin's reaction to getting all the like directions to what he needs to do is like yeah and then in the bathroom there's a pistol in the in the toilet he's like like the godfather Virgil's like, yeah, like the Godfather. Like in Twin Peaks, you're laughing because like, you know, somebody is standing weirdly or has like ah an odd face. Right. But there's like a knowing ah weirdness that's happening here where like Kevin understands the absurdity of this. But there is an internal logic of the space to where all this just has to make sense. Yeah. And I feel like once you've made that initial plunge, like he's drank poison to get here. So it's like you kind of do have to just go like you are surrendering yourself to this process. Then it's like yeah would it would it would it would be crazy to then be rejecting it once you're there. It's like, dude, you you killed yourself to get here. So like you got to you got to go with it now. Well, it's like as we've gone over how like this entire season he's been so apprehensive the entire time. He's like, no, I'm not going to, you know, feed into all of these things. I'm going to try to like live a normal life.
01:21:02
Speaker
ah He can't do that after a certain point. He needs to take care of this. And this is like the point where he really kicks into action. And it's like if he's going to do these things, he's really going to do these things. but because Because we should talk – sorry. ah We should zoom out. I mean people have already – Hopefully watch the show before he get to. But I think it's like important to remember, like the thing that drove him to do this was because like he had the conversation with Virgil initially about what he needs to do. And he good go. He's like, that's too much. I'm not going to kill myself. to I'm not going to die to like get rid of. ah ah Patty, but Nora left, you know, like she took the baby, went somewhere else in town. i mean, she like, like Kevin states like, okay, she has Mary. So she's still somewhere in town, but he doesn't know where she is.
01:21:49
Speaker
And it, that's like such a frightening position for like, when he wakes up, he's still chained and he like, she's gone. And it's like the worst confirmation of all his fears because like, he thinks like, okay, being honest is the way through this. But Patty's telling him the whole time, like,
01:22:03
Speaker
You just made a huge mistake, like telling Nora, like, did this is not going to work out. and She's going to leave. And then she leaves. Like, it's like, oh, Patty was right. Well, like, Nora is not ever like this entire show. She's never fully in a sound state of mind. ah And it's not she always puts on strength. She's always like, yeah, i can handle it. And then when she's put in those positions, she backs out. She just nopes out of it.
01:22:29
Speaker
Yeah. and And that's another instance of that. But to get bring it to Kevin's perspective, just because like we we'll get to Norway, get to Nora. But for Kevin, it's like he wants to get rid of Patty because it's also an allusion to relationships themselves, where it's like ah you can't be in a relationship with somebody else if you're hung up on somebody else. Like you need to take. Even the way he phrases it when he confesses to Nora sound sounds like initially like he's having an affair yeah because he says, I'm seeing someone. And I think when he repeats it, she understands like what he means. And she's like, oh, who have you? been She's not saying it like a jealous woman. And when she's like, who have you? I think after he says, like, I'm seeing someone that she's like, oh. all All I'm saying is like friends don't watch each other drink their own cum out of a chalice. like Something like that like that, you're no longer you know friends. ah But to bring it back to the International Assassin storyline and what's happening there, I really love the introduction of the little girl, right? Because you you get ah you know she's standing by the pool and she jumps in and ah Kevin saves her, right? And we know now, in the with the benefit of hindsight, that that was Patty, right? And this is an inverse of ah not just what Kevin does later in this episode, but it's also an inverse of the moment with the suicide. Because why is Kevin seeing Patty other than this guilt that he holds for, you know, watching her kill herself right in front of him? So this moment here is not just an echo of what happens later, but it's also... An echo of what has happened, yeah not even an echo of what's happened, but it's like him getting it right this time. It's like, like a part of his catharsis is that sequence right there. He saves people. He gets to be the the hero. But then immediately that is like, because he's still like learning the rules of this weird place. We see what,
01:24:27
Speaker
it seems to be her father and come out and be like oh i told you not to be in the pool like like they're almost like she's the one in trouble but it's almost like that he fucked up somehow by rescuing her is almost the vibe of when he does that even before he knows who who that uh who that is it's it's yeah it's like this weird like game logic that this this place operates on but i uh yeah it is like you said that he gets to to get it right this time and i love the choice by the little girl like there could be like once we like confirm like who that is that she could just start swearing like she could be telling car kevin the drink has come like but it's coming from a little girl's mouth she's still talking like a little girl the whole time even when they're driving to the well that she's like reading the brochure about the well and is like indigenous like it it doesn't feel like it's an at because she doesn't have to trick Kevin at that point he knows it's Patty but it's almost like that that's like I mean we all have an inner child but it's like that that's like you know like that that this is no it's it's a child and like even the Australian guy i believe you get his
01:25:33
Speaker
I don't, they say his name maybe in the background on the news when you first hear about like, oh, there was a guy in Australia who died and came back to life. i think his name was like Richard Burton or something. But he says that like, no, that is a girl. Cause like Kevin's like, ah you know, he's giving Kevin the chance to opt out of it towards, towards the end of like, well, you can jump off this, this bridge and and hang yourself because you don't want to kill a child. And he's like, that's not a kid. he's like, it's a kid you know like so they did like they're not letting him off the hook in that way where it's like she could just start cussing at him and you'd be like okay well it's fine i can kill that like that's not a kid it's like no it's a kid within those whatever logic of this place that's a child
01:26:13
Speaker
Well, there's there's a few ways to take this entity of Patty, right? Because we already know that like the Patty that we saw in the real world, the Patty who was the you know senator and this younger girl who is Patty, those are three different entities. They don't share consciousnesses. It's not like when Kevin interacts with either of them, they transfer the the memories or anything like that. ah The thing is, is that you could interpret it as ah these are these like three spiritual representations of Patty, but they all lead to the same place where it's still this unrested spirit of Patty needs to be put to rest.
01:26:54
Speaker
Or ah we could go back again to saying that Kevin is imagining his idea of Patty's. And this idea that he is now seeing Patty as a little girl is this idea that like now ah it's total innocence. He only saw her as the source of his pain and anguish and all he did wrong. He has to accept that she was human. She's she's yeah a little girl like he has the line later tormentor.
01:27:23
Speaker
He has that line later where it's like, I feel sorry for you, you know, like that that you have to have compassion for even your greatest enemy, which is like why I think like they're not mutually exclusive. Like it could be that. And also this is supernatural and that's part of Patty's spirit. Like, I think it's all of it. You know, it's like it's like somehow this they are inter interlinked. Like both theories are interlinked, whether one of them is right or wrong, which is what makes the show so interesting.
01:27:50
Speaker
Right, because it's like you don't you get to choose your interpretation of Belindelov's like, I ain't choosing one. I'm doing I'm doing both things. Exactly. And like for us, it's like the more the merrier. And and just, ah you know, because you already touched on this Australian guy, you know, like he he comes back a bit later on. Well, I feel he's more important there.
01:28:11
Speaker
Oh, and and just wait, there's some great use of him in in season three, because it it seems like there's the the overlap of like, oh, whatever kind of. Well, it seems other people can do this ritual of passing between, but it's not like common knowledge. So it's like the people who can go between this other world and living life. It's like Kevin, for sure. Virgil's done it like one time with the guy in the tower. and then this Australian guy, Richard Burton.
01:28:38
Speaker
well Well, there's actually another person, and we see them at the start of this episode, is Kevin's dad, who actually gets in contact with him through the television. Well, he he Skypes in.
01:28:49
Speaker
he nearly phoned in his performance, I guess could say, right? Yeah. And I just love that it, like, resembles the ending of – what's the movie? Sorry, I'm blanking on the title. Under the Silver Lake, you know, when talking to the girl in the Zoom? It has the same vibe to me and the idea that, like, they're all adorned in white. And that's another interesting thing, too, is that the hotel specifically that Kevin is waking up in is in Australia.
Spiritual Connections in Australia
01:29:17
Speaker
And the hotel that – Kevin Sr. is like, I'm in the same room. It's like these are overlapping planes. It's like I love that when like supernatural things like the Constantine movie, for example, it's like, what's hell like? Like, well, it's like L.A., but it's like dustier. And I just like that, like, now Australia is being made this like intersection point. Like why Australia in the hotel? Like, why is the dad going to Australia? Why is there's this this Australian man who died and is now appearing to Kevin? Again, another thing that proves that there is spiritual connection here is that like Kevin never met that guy.
01:29:58
Speaker
Right. Like he could have heard on the radio or the news about him. Maybe it's like, I feel like that's a stretch. Cause like he's actively turning off any news about the departure or anything weird. So I don't think he's like paying attention. Like, I guess subconsciously he could have picked up like, Oh, there's a guy in Australia. But the fact that.
01:30:17
Speaker
You'll see, like, this guy is met in the living world and it's him. So it's not like this is like a psychic, like, remembering of what this guy looks like. Like, no, that's Richard Burton. This this is that guy.
01:30:27
Speaker
Yeah. Interesting. OK. And another thing to point out, too, is like we never so like as an audience, we never see Burton until up until this point. Right. ah we We don't like we hear this on the on the news, but we don't get an image of him. And the same is true about Patty's husband. It's where it's like we only hear about Patty's husband. And then this is the only time that we actually see them. So like literally the true is said ah the true like both things can be said like they both be the same thing. It's what i'm trying to say. I totally stuttered that. I apologize. No, no, I get what you're saying. And and I agree. But yeah, this stuff that there are like little hints like that, which definitely like putting their thumb on the scale like, there's not really any natural explanation for this other than that it is happening. ah Like, and and yeah, the burden of it all, I feel like is is is part of that. Yeah.
01:31:19
Speaker
So he knows he gets the the Skype from Kevin Sr., who I love is is tripping balls in the hotel room. is like is There's like a fire has like made the connection. fire alarm is going off in the hotel. that Yeah. Yeah. So and he keeps telling to stoke the fire and like like and they're but putting it out mid-conversation. like, no, no, no, I'm not done. but like Keep going because whatever aborigines or whoever he's hanging with, they're probably tripping to.
01:31:47
Speaker
like sounds Sounds like Kevin Sr. is having a fun time. Yeah. I mean, yeah you need got to get your drugs from someone and then they probably want to hang out with you afterwards. Yeah. It it is canonical that literally anyone that Kevin's dad dad meets likes him. You know, like he seems like a very like easy to get along with dude. And the only person who like interprets him as even crazy is Kevin.
01:32:12
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Even the mayor is like visiting him last season and like is still being courted. Like no, no one's. Yeah. Yeah. Every Kevin senior seems like a chill hang like. ah Innocent.
01:32:24
Speaker
That's done nothing wrong. I mean, i i do drugs with him in Australia, but it is we like it is does add this unique flavor because I referenced in season one seems like from what I've ah heard, that is the whole book, like the original ah text. And now we're off book and that could be like. A scary point in a show, you know, like you see v see what happened in Game of Thrones when they went off book that they lost the thread. But this is like they've like the chains are off now. Like Linda Lindelof's off the leash. And so like i love. would say that he improved. That's what I'm saying. I mean, it sounds like he already was improving from season one because like Nora getting shot by prostitutes wasn't a thing. I think she just went for really intense runs to the point of exhaustion. Like that was like her shameful thing. I'm like, no, it's bigger. Go bigger.
01:33:15
Speaker
come The way Carrie Coon eats that bullet in the bulletproof vest, like, come on, that's ah that's an image that just is seared in my mind forever. And and then the thing with well metal music is playing. Yeah.
01:33:27
Speaker
Like, like the, the that it even comes down to like the switch of the location, right? This idea that like Mapleton is every town USA kind of vibe. And now the setting has been taken to Jarden, right? that The stakes have been raised to this level. And also like talking to Lost. And there's a lot of Lost connections we can make with this season in particular. But this very much so feels like when you you've got the DARPA initiative on the island, right? You know, like, especially when like they go back to the seventy s that They have to like be in the community and live ah amongst the community. And if they act out of place, then they're going to be reprimanded. there's And then also like with the last connections with Damon Lindelof, just the idea that there's so many character specific episodes.
01:34:10
Speaker
And speaking to character specific, we should get back to Kevin Garvey because we yeah we've been podcasting for like two hours and we have we still are going through Kevin. i aoke Because there's a lot there, man. He's got a lot going on.
01:34:22
Speaker
he is the season, really. like And everyone is comes from him, like you said, right? But it's like he he takes ah Patty to the well and ah probably the most iconic image of the show so far where it's like he's just, you know, at his wit's end and the little girl of Patty is now aware that he needs to do this and is like trying to help him ah along in the process. He does it. Yeah. Like, in and can't even look it. Which is how I knew it wasn't going to be enough. I'm like, no, they're going to make you like really, really commit to this, dude. Like, you're not going to get off. Not that pushing a girl into well easy or whatever, it was like, nah, there's going to be more.
01:35:03
Speaker
It literally just turns into the end of Gore Verbinski's The Ring. He just has to go down there and kill it himself, you know? And and with with with what happens, like, ah the little girl gets thrown down there and it's actually Patty again. and it's like a fourth Patty. This is another new iteration.
01:35:23
Speaker
And this one, not confirmed, but it does feel like this is like the amalgamation of all the... kyla Kind of like in Dragon Ball Z, by the end, there's all the forms of boo. But then when we would get down to kid boo, it's like, this is like the pure, unfiltered boo. So
Patty's Role and Motivations
01:35:39
Speaker
it' this is... ah but patty Patty's kind of like the boo of...
01:35:43
Speaker
the leftover if we We're talking about leftovers power scaling. That'll be its own podcast where we compare the power levels of of all the the characters and spirits. You know, i'm I'm no Dragon Ball Z, you know, aficionado. Maybe I could like turn this into Evangelion terms. The show certainly ah feels like Evangelion now. Like it's... Oh yeah. It's like the idea that it's like near death, like visions and like the idea of your own anxiety and depression, like becoming the thing that overtakes you. It's all there. ah But when when he gets down there, it's like, again, Patty wants to die. And it's also like you said, it's this, you know, she wants to die, but she's also scared. Like, cause like naturally she doesn't know what's next. There could be nothing next. And,
01:36:30
Speaker
ah ah Like I said, I felt like this was like the the true Patty because it does. There is a knowingness to like it it does. Whereas you said the other versions, they're not picking up conversations. This does feel like like the same Patty he was being haunted by in Waking Life of Omo. Like this feels like the most continuity between versions that we've had, like like like almost like it's like a folding in of like these are all the other Patties. And now this is like the Patty Prime.
01:36:58
Speaker
This is this is Patty Prime. And it's like a tender moment where she's like talking about ah Jeopardy. yeah but She was on Jeopardy. It's so good. ah hi And Dowd's like they're fucking incredible. But ah like her her story her. Just just to be clear, though, like she started the guilty remnant because of this Jeopardy thing. Right.
01:37:22
Speaker
Sounds like it. Yeah. I just wanted to like throw that out there because like when that happens, I'm just like, of course, that's what the guilty remnant was kind of like born out of it. It's not actually out of like any belief of anything. It's just out of spite. And it's proven again through the continuation of the guilty remnant.
01:37:39
Speaker
Which, which, yeah, it makes sense. ah But yeah, she was initially trying to get enough money to like leave Neil or something. And she was she won for like the first couple of days and then blows it on the final day. But she gives the little tidbit about like in the green room before they went out. She's like, yeah.
01:37:56
Speaker
Do know what Neil said to me? Nothing, you know, it's like, like, oh, that's the genesis of why they don't talk like that. It's like she realized in that moment how powerful that like silences that you're asserting actually control over someone if you just shut the fuck up.
01:38:14
Speaker
and And the genesis is not any kind of inherent belief system, but rather just a way stab someone in the heart, right? It's control, yeah.
01:38:25
Speaker
And this admission at the end for Patty is – when you say it's the amalgamation of all of them, I totally agree because I do believe that this is the same Patty who was alive on Earth when she killed herself. Yeah. And I believe that this is the Patty who like has now come to the conclusion that she is ready to pass on. And and like you said, there is a scaredness to her ah because like she there could be the ah so uncertainty of like there's nothing. But she also understands that it's what's necessary for her to find rest because this space that all of these people are occupying, if they drink the water, they never find rest. And and and in Kevin doing this, He is redeeming himself from the initial suicide in his own eyes, as well as in her spirit's unrest.
01:39:11
Speaker
Right. And that being at rest itself is a terrifying concept, not just to Patty, but kind of all the characters in the show in a way. Like the guilty remnant represents like it's such a brilliant idea to give like existential angst physical form because it's like. There there could be no actual antagonist in the show and it would still be very compelling. But it's like, no, these people's sole goal is to make sure that you stay in that state.
01:39:36
Speaker
And and and so for her, the idea of being at rest starts. spiritually is the opposite of that. And your she her having to accept that is scary because it's like a lot of these characters and we'll, you know, we're we're not going to be going on to all of them as long as as Kevin, but that's like scary to a of them. Like Tommy, for example, like he rejected Wayne. hugging he He's someone who like the idea of being at peace, like that he would reject, you know, like he would rather go to join the cult of his rapist. than like like find peace tommy wants love the the thing he doesn't understand is like he wants love but he doesn't understand that he already has unconditional love at home he thinks that he needs to find it in his own way ah but he ends up finding it in the worst ways and and honestly laurie is you know largely at fault with a lot of what she does in that segment as well she she fucked up yeah she fucked up big time with a lot of what she like puts she puts him in a really bad position is what i'll say before you get there uh but the to get back to kevin with this whole like afterlife thing as we've been focusing on patty like finding peace so too does kevin like i feel as though what happens in this moment is kevin has kind of like gotten his ticket to heaven almost you know ah he he's he's good to go and in uh
01:41:01
Speaker
you know, comparison to Virgil, right? The idea that like when he ah died and came back, he had to be brought back with the drug, right? That's what why he was able to do it. And why he isn't able to find peace when he's there is because he never found peace when he entered them. And he intentionally pours it out, which at first is almost framed in a sinister way of like, oh, is he trapping Kevin? yeah No, he's saying he just killed Kevin.
01:41:26
Speaker
Right. But it's for a him being like, and that's why he shoots himself. He doesn't drink poison. He shoots himself because he's saying, I'm going to atone. Like, I should I should be there forever. Like, I don't I.
01:41:38
Speaker
what I've done, you know, like even if I got the demon off of my back or whatever, that that's still like unforgivable what I did. And I i should probably just be in this place forever.
01:41:50
Speaker
well Well, the fact that he has that thought, the fact that he says, I i should do this because I can't get the demon on his off his back, is the admission that he is going to be stuck to this purgatory forever. And it's this idea that Kevin took the necessary steps to overcome those things, that he's able to literally come back from the dead. We get a shot. for like He rises out of the film.
01:42:12
Speaker
He rises from the ground. Yeah. yeah Crazy. and and And like, I can't believe the show went there. Again, proves that there has to be some kind of spiritualism going on because a body body stops breathing or not. The idea that he would come back to life and then crawl out of the ground like that is so...
01:42:32
Speaker
Amazing. So miraculous. And the match cut from him climbing the well to him emerging from the ground. It's, yeah, chef's kiss. Because, like, yeah, what you're saying, it's a brilliant metaphor. Like, Virgil cannot move on from what he's done. And to be fair, yeah, like, that is, the like, one of the worst things you can can do. But this show is all about people being able to move on from the unmovable and the unforgivable. Like, there's there's a moment...
01:43:01
Speaker
With with Nora early on, i think it's like that ah flashback I was mentioning, like where he confesses, like what happened to Patty and she talks about, you know, hiring people to shoot her and she says it's OK, you know, and he's like, oh, it's OK. So this is like he he is able to come back from the dead and.
01:43:19
Speaker
be move beyond because he can accept the fucked upness and but also be like yeah but that's i need to keep going you know like that's life like i'm not i don't i can't just keep the punishing myself and like staying in purgatory because i you know cheated or was restless and i you know maybe wasn't the best dad all the time it's like yeah you acknowledge your faults but you don't you Don't stay in purgatory. like You need to go back.
Kevin's Redemption and Resurrection
01:43:48
Speaker
That's how you atone is like make up for it. Now be a good dad. you know like you that's that's That's the thing that needs to be done. But so many of these characters are stuck in that pattern of like, no, I can't move on. I shouldn't move on.
01:44:01
Speaker
And when he does like when he is going to make this decision to cross over. Right. He has this like moment with each of the people where he's kind of, you know, i got to go do something mode. And then he it goes to and he's like unsure that it's going to be the last time he ever sees them. But then we get this moment where he is back and he has like these reconnections with everybody. And when he goes with John, he's like, I'll be back in a moment.
01:44:30
Speaker
Just got to do this one more thing. And he's it to the kennel and shot again. Right, which he which she didn't see coming. But, like, i think he in his mind, he's like, whatever is awaiting me, because we've already set up the thing of, like, when they're getting the handprint of everyone ah from from from Evie's car, that he accidentally waddles into that because he's like – He has the handcuff. He didn't see the key. Nora left, so he needs to take it off. And i love John's reaction first when he sees handcuff. He's like, ah, you devil, Kevin. Whose idea was that? You dog.
01:45:08
Speaker
The fact that, like, Patty even calls it up before and she's like, say it's sex stuff, Kevin. You know? Yeah.
01:45:16
Speaker
like This show is awesome. You know, the fact that, like, this can be happening, like, people can be saying these things. And as you're watching, you're just like, no, Kevin, no, watch out. Like, here you're not really. Right. Like, oh, no. But, like, you are laughing because of the absurdity, but then you're also really caring about these things. But when Kevin gets taken this kennel and shot by John, it's like this idea that we're like, oh, he's done for good now. like Yeah. in my No way you're coming back from... from of No way you're coming back from from the dead twice. And the timing of it for for John is great because he, at this moment, is probably just thinking, like, Kevin killed my daughter or something. Like, it's... Because he doesn't, you know, he doesn't believe in, like...
01:46:02
Speaker
oh, there's going to be another departure she was raptured or even the possibility. you know, Kevin, that's another thing. When he comes out of the ground, he remembers all his unwaking things. So he remembers that he saw Evie and her friends, like, ready to to book it before he jumped in that lake. So he tells John this and – you know John's recently skeptical he's been told some crazy shit and and the thing that really triggers John is when he's like why would Evie do this like she loved she loved me and Kevin's response maybe she didn't love ah Kevin maybe you shouldn't have said that you could have phrased it a little
01:46:39
Speaker
but Like, both know John has a gun. You know that he could do that at any point. Both him and Matt could have navigated situations with John where you didn't turn him on you at the last moment, where it's like, even if he is already upset with you, it's like, just play along with him. Okay, just you can, you know what you can say to placate this man right now.
01:46:59
Speaker
To be fair, to be fair, like that is a real Matt move, you know, like Matt, I understand Matt doing that. Like that's in his nature. Right. But with Kevin, you like you're you're going to step too far because, uh, as you've already said, like very reasonable, ah for ah John to believe that, uh, he has something to do with Evie's disappearance by this point. And the things that Kevin's saying to him, it just sounds like he's one of the like the crazy cult people, the people that he's been abusing this entire time. And the and if we're going with, toola and if we're going for the theory that Virgil raped Evie, the fact that he's talking of like this about his daughter who was abused, that would be like, that would drive any parent to like, a of like, okay, you shut up. You're dying now.
01:47:44
Speaker
but Yeah, it's like, obviously, you're thinking to yourself, like, John, have a bit more chill. But then on the other hand, it's like Kevin operated in the worst possible way. And a part of it is hubris from coming back from the dead. I feel like he came back from the dead. I'm Jesus now. Yeah. there is really a Messiah complex that's forming with him at this point. Like you we're like, and we'll get into it at like the very end of the season, which is because he's not actively self-destructive. Like he's kind of been the whole show. Like there is a a sereneness with him, but this is now because he's Kevin Garvey. It's like accidental self-destruction. He's oops. You should have said that. She feels like unimpeded by everything that's around him because of that event to the point where he forgets about traditional mortality. Right. And oh shit, I could die. Oh, bullets. My only weakness.
01:48:36
Speaker
This is Nora's specialty, not mine. Like, I can't take the bolts the same way as she can. But the ah when when he goes to the afterlife again and we get Burton and it's like when when that happens, you're like, OK, guy on the bridge, one time deal, should be whatever. Right. The fact that we see him the second time, I'm like, that guy's important.
01:48:58
Speaker
this This is the thing. This is the thing now. And I also like that he's like speed running the afterlife now because like it's not a whole episode that it takes him to get back. It's it's immediately like one. He doesn't pick the international assassin suit. I probably wouldn't also again. I'm like, I don't have the energy in me to be like fighting and killing people. That sounds like a lot. But also I'd be worried putting the cop uniform on to my cops also have to, you know, ah cops also deal with violence. So like that's you put doing a w risk there, Kevin. I mean, that's familiar to him That's what he was. he was a cop. So he put he puts on that uniform and then they call him to the lobby. They say someone's attacking a cop, but instead it's karaoke time.
01:49:38
Speaker
Well, well to to go quickly back to the wardrobe thing, right? The idea that ah Kevin initially chose that suit, ah the commentary then at that point is that like the suit never was for him.
01:49:50
Speaker
And the moment that he took on this identity of the international assassin, it was... inappropriate, which makes sense considering the idea that you would be surrounded in the afterlife with an international assassin plotline is inappropriate. Instead, what's appropriate is like who he is at his, at his core, which is the chief police in Mapleton. even though we're not in Mapleton anymore, ah like he knows that that's where he had like his kid, Jill, and and also raised Tommy and was married to Lori for many years. Right. So like a part of them is always going to be from Mapleton in that way. And that's representative also when he gets to that, ah you know, karaoke and has to sing that song. The song, of course, is Homeward Bound. Simon Garfunkel. So good. Yeah.
01:50:36
Speaker
amazing rendition where it's like ah Thoreau obviously is not a great singer, but he's selling the emotion of it where you can even like tell which words are hurting him more and more. ah And it's this idea that like everything that was making him ah confused or he felt insecure about, it drifts away at this point.
01:51:01
Speaker
Wayne took people's pain away. This was the pain being taken away for Kevin Garvey at this Well, and it's the ultimate. I love that he has to keep proving on like a metaphysical level. This man has to defy the laws of physics, of nature and God to like prove that he loves and wants to be with his family. Because like it like we in that that first season flashback, he was thinking of dipping, you know? So like that this is like he has to definitively commit himself now. Like not just getting rid of Patty was enough that he needs to do like openly declare like, no, i
01:51:36
Speaker
need to be home with my family you know like that that he is he is homeward bound uh also love the house simon and your garfunkel friendly this is good we got we got that and then have the one episode that ends with uh i am a ride They just needed one more, one more Simon Garfunkel song. is Do like feeling groovy or something. It's just Jill getting high and it's like feeling groovy. Maybe like the final, like when we get to the season three finale, maybe it's just like a giant, ah you know, recreation of the graduate with Nora and Kevin, you know, are you trying to seduce me? Mrs. Durst.
01:52:17
Speaker
Yeah.
01:52:20
Speaker
It's like driving down the road really quickly. but but the when Kevin is singing this song, you know, ah he wakes back up and he re-encounters with John who is like – I killed you. And he believes, like, it's a miracle, really, at that point. And, like, Kevin's like, whatever. yeah kick ke Kevin's like, ah he he came back from the dead, but he was still shot. Like, the bullet went through, but he is losing blood. So I love that him having to stagger to this, like, this hospital. And he's like, yeah.
01:52:55
Speaker
all pretty much passed out when john finds him and so like his like short responses to stuff where he's like i killed you and kevin's just like nope and he's like the you've lost so much blood you should have bled out and kevin's just like uh-huh you know who responded that that kind of way holy wayne and like Like he really is starting to like come into this. Like I was saying, Jesus complex. yeah and And this ending does him no favors because we get like the sappiest fucking like Kingdom Hearts esque, like optimistic ending to the season. And it's fucking awesome. The idea that he's like walking with John and and we're skipping over a bunch, obviously, with what happened with like the guilty remnant. We'll get there. But yeah, they'll be its own. like They walk to the houses and it's like, what if they're not there? i'll I'm right next door. you You come over to my house. The guy who killed him. He's saying like, what's more Christ like than that? Inviting the man and who killed you over to your home. he's for a guy who was so reluctant to accept all this. He he's like the Jesus thing but really fits him like a glove, which is why I said it was funny that in in the 10 that he played Jesus H. Christ.
01:54:14
Speaker
and and and And when they get, when Kevin goes home and he's surrounded by everyone. Everyone. they're no This whole show. And Tiny Tim, who did not die.
01:54:27
Speaker
everyone He brought the chicken dinner. he they're going to eat it a cooked goose. A cooked goose for everyone. God bless us, everyone.
01:54:40
Speaker
It should have been Christmas time. that that' so that They could have made it sappier. It was like make make it Christmas. Where is my mind doesn't play during this point, right? Like, it's just like the actual like score for the show. when it's It's the score for they play it the instrumental again when John finds ah ah Kevin bleeding out. And there's that moment where he's like stitching Kevin up. He's like, I don't know what's happening. And and and and then it starts to. in which i just i assume it's like start apply i'm like yes you've you've earned it this time it felt it wasn't silly before maybe but now it's incredible ah this this is like one thing we haven't brought up with this entire series rundown yet has been the twilight zone and i would say that obviously there is like with damon lindelof's whole career there are comparisons to be made to the twilight zone oh absolutely Like, I feel like that moment specifically, International Assassin, entirety of it, several other episodes we'll get to in this season, to be frank. But like, this really does feel like Rod Serling is in heaven looking down, smiling, you know, like this is the the kind of shit that like exactly like it's born from the same kind of cloth where it's like I was even saying from the first season. morality tale without morality. This is taking that to its most logical conclusion. And the fact that we do get this like really sappy ending where he's surrounded by his family and it's like, hey, fuck yeah, we did it. But then again, we have that in the back of our mind where it's like, we know that this is the show about unrest. And we know that like the moment that Kevin starts to see himself as some kind of like
01:56:18
Speaker
deity all of the hell is going to break loose this is not exactly like setting us up for success here this this is so yeah we'll we'll we'll see because like a lot of there's there's there's multiple happy because it's not just he comes back in everyone's home it's like everything's working out for everyone tommy's back with his family matt's wife is up now it's we'll see see how it not and there Not that the show walks anything back, but it's like a logical human progression from like what where these people are. And so, yeah, it's just so fantastic. But we still do get to have at least that temporary like he fucking did it.
01:56:59
Speaker
yeah you can experience the joy just for a moment and and again kingdom hearts ass shit where it's like you know in that game where it's like they have a moment together or they're like let's just enjoy the moment you know that's what this is where it's like the most sappy the most like optimistic thing you can imagine ah i've already said that this is kind of destined for failure but i would say that like for me like coming into the show kind of fresh when i get this kind of ending that tells me at least that this show is ultimately skewing to the moron optimistic.
Humanism vs Nihilism Themes
01:57:30
Speaker
I don't think that this is a show that is on the trajectory to doom and gloom at all times. It's a humanist show, like, because it it it it fundamentally disagrees with the guilty remnant. like Like, this is not, like, it does humanize all of them, but it, you know, like, it explains their pain and, like, why they would be compelled to this. But it's saying that that's wrong. Like, that that like that that this is not meaningless. The love
01:57:57
Speaker
Love is a meaning in and of itself. What Kevin Garvey goes through at the end of the season confirms that there is a way to find happiness in life, that you can make sense of the pain and you can like sort that all shit out on your own. And... like Obviously, this goes against like everything people kind of have to deal with in their day-to-day lives. But it's this idea that it's like ah not quite religious, but like self-actualization almost. And the fact that that exists, the fact that there is a route to do that in this post-rapture world... ah
01:58:31
Speaker
You don't have to throw grenades on the buses. Like there is a way that you can deal with your shit, even if it doesn't. Maybe will this stick and be a permanent state? Obviously not. This is like human drama and suffering is inevitable. But you can then work through that. You know, it's like that's what life is.
01:58:51
Speaker
There are ways to make sense of it. There are ways to rationalize it and make the pain at least easier to manage, which like the show's never at any point saying that, you know, people can walk through life without pain, you know, and the the show goes out of your way to say, don't listen to those people, you know?
01:59:06
Speaker
ah So it's right. that that There are, there's no easy solve. Like he literally had to like bend the the laws of, you know, like I said, heaven and earth to do this. Whereas any easy solves are shown to be undone or, know,
01:59:21
Speaker
Permanently damaging, like like, you know, we we hop around since since we've gone through the Kevin of it all. But like in that Laurie centric episode, we see where she's, ah you know, working to deprogram all these former guilty remnant people. ah Tommy correctly points out, like, we're taking away that, but we're not replacing. replacing it with anything. Like, you've taken away... They have... The Guilty Revenant is a full belief system, even if the show disagrees with it. And like Tommy says, because he's on the inside, like, trying to recruit people for them to save, he's like, it makes sense. He's like, you like you know, you you forget what it it's like being in there. Like, it makes sense what they're saying. And so...
01:59:58
Speaker
the fact that that one woman who you this that I forgot about this. First, I thought she just goes back to them or something. I was like, I know this doesn't stick somehow, but this this whole episode, like she reunites this woman with her family that she left and obviously like a Lori surrogate. But it's like,
02:00:15
Speaker
Speaking to, like, she ha hasn't even spoken to her own daughter or ex-husband since she... ah I mean, yes, there's, like, a two-month, like, jump or whatever. It doesn't jump ahead a ton between one and two, and we're filling in some of that time. But I think we're to believe, like, especially when she... gives Tommy that note to give to Jill. They have not had a conversation since Jill almost died, you know, in a fire because of her basically. And, and so she's not confronting her own shit. She's like, I'm going to save everyone else. You know, like, like, let's exactly it.
02:00:46
Speaker
Let me try that. She ah the the whole idea of not replacing anything is the perfect point because it's like she is still a guilty
Lori's Guilt and Manipulations
02:00:55
Speaker
remnant. She is not fully exited that headspace. And the reason that her worldview is as empty as it is, is because she hasn't filled it in again with her own life's and experience again. She is reverting back to the way that she, you know, used to be. But in the process of doing so, like she has forgotten how to appropriately communicate and connect to people. Because obviously there's the whole element of her and Jill not communicating after what she put her through. Right. No, like don't write her a fucking note. Go into the diner and be like, hug your daughter and be like, I am sorry. Like, like, but she can't confront what she like. She's writing a book about it. But when hearing it repeated back to her, like, yes, maybe this publisher could have had a more compassionate tone. and He didn't know the news she had just received before this meeting with the with the publisher. So like no one, no one could have known that. But it's the fact that just hearing what she has done, she cannot handle. Like, that sends her into a frenzy.
02:01:53
Speaker
like Like, yes, it's everything else piling on. But it's like this publisher's talking about, you left your family. Your daughter almost died. How did that make you feel? Well, like, before I get into the book thing, I want to get back to that letter aspect, right? Like, before she even should have talked to Jill, she should have talked to Kevin.
02:02:08
Speaker
Like, like it takes the fact that it takes her as long as she does to have that connection with Kevin again later in the season, it's like... Kevin saved her life, Jill's life. Your daughter would have been dead if Kevin didn't do that. And Jill knows that as well. And it's like part of the reason of this whole like animosity within this family is been because of what Lori has done for the. And what she and what she hasn't done, you know, like just like yeah just the acknowledgement of.
02:02:36
Speaker
What you've done would be something. But she doesn't even show up to Miracle until Tommy's missing. Like, she's convinced that he went to them. Like, she even calls Nora and Nora says, no, he's not there. And then she's like, I know why Nora would lie. Of course she would. But, like, you seriously, though, where where is he? i need to yeah i need to apologize. And I love it. Kevin's ah immediate response is like, what did you do?
02:02:59
Speaker
You know, because like this woman, I mean, reasonably so, this woman's fucked up a lot of shit. I mean, not that, you know, can't don't throw stones, those the glass houses, etc. But, ah you know, she did leave, abandoned her family once before. So Kevin saying, what did you do is is understandable. And then.
02:03:17
Speaker
ah See, it it was the timing of this when Where's My Mind started playing again, because she flips it back on him and she's like, are you doing okay? And then he very unconvincingly is like, i'm I'm fine. I'm great. You know, and then then then it starts is there starts playing. Dude.
02:03:33
Speaker
I like laughing, but it's like, yes, this is a very serious moment, but there was something about that playing and then him banging on the gate to Miracle be like, you don't leave. You don't leave. It's like, yes, this this this ah very it's coming from a lot of pain, but almost felt like something that like Will Arnett in rest of development would say or something like dramatic. Like, you don't leave.
02:03:56
Speaker
Michael, don't leave. Really puff up their chest. Yeah. the The thing with like Lori and Tommy on this excursion that they're on is that like, she's totally using Tommy by putting him in like these really dangerous positions to go into the guilty remnant. Like, It's crazy. Right. It's crazy because, like, she she knows what these people are capable of. Like, yes, there's, like, other chapters and you maybe don't have the full they they knowledge of, like, what they're up to. But you know what Patty's gang was up to? ah You certainly know all that now. And that probably would have come out now that they stoned one of them. Like, even if she wasn't in on the plan at that time, you would know. Yeah.
02:04:35
Speaker
They'll kill their fucking own people. I mean, like, you you were going to burn to death in the cul-de-sac with your daughter. So it's like the fact that you send your son in what the fuck are you doing, Laurie?
02:04:46
Speaker
And then also let's take like a zoom out for a second because like separate from even what their intentions are, whatever. Sure. You want to like deprogram these people. Good for you. Right. What she is doing is she is sending her son in there to extract these people for financial gain. Like the idea of them getting these donations for these therapy lessons, right? Like that's really what this is. Ultimately, she's just trying to do a job her job again because she can't go back to being a therapist after being in the guilty remnant. She knows she can't do that. What she's doing is she's gripping onto life.
02:05:18
Speaker
She's trying to give it like an altruistic meaning to it. But she's still using the people around her, you know, because she can't fill the void within herself. And it's because of this ah that she's using Tommy. And because Tommy is so much of a people pleaser, we already saw that with Holy Wayne. He he didn't even need the hugs. He was just there because he wanted to be like, well, he just wanted Wayne to say, good job. He was on someone to say, good job, Tommy.
02:05:43
Speaker
Exactly. and and And he's with his mom and he's like, great. We're like, and we're we're helping people. we got love. But no, your mom is sending you into the dragon's den and he gets raped because of it.
02:05:55
Speaker
Like, not well, we got to get to now because like that that is an like, first off, like, fuck Meg forever now. You know, like I want to do the meme of of Michael Caine. Like Bane is the scariest guy I've ever seen. you Like Meg is the scariest guy I've ever seen.
02:06:13
Speaker
she's she she's she's scarier than patty to me like because at least by this point they've like humanized patty like like especially that whole international assassin like they really like like yes she was awful did awful shit but she was a person in pain meg is also a person in pain but live tyler does such a good way of playing the detachment where it's like because my mom was watching that that flashback episode with her and it's like Sure, the show will explain the source of someone's pain and like maybe why they would do this. But there's not a one-to-one connection because mom's like, so her like mom died before the departure. And she's like trying to connect with like, how do you get from that to throw in a grenade on a school? But like, why why is she why is she doing all this? And it's like, yeah, I mean, the Guilty Remnants thing is they're making other people's pain, their' problem i mean, making their pain other people's problems. But Meg is is like that to like the nth degree.
02:07:07
Speaker
she She fits, like, genuine glee out of, you know, making people feel pain or discomfort. It's it's sadism because it's it's pain and manipulation that she's, like, getting off on. And and it unfortunately goes hand-in-hand with, like, the birthplace of the guilty remnant, which makes sense as to why she's quickly raising through the ranks, where it's like... because of the reputation that the guilty remnant has been building and building, there is this natural urge for them to escalate and to get worse. And to who better to escalate than the person who is literally begging for violence, who is like, we got to take it to that next level. And what she does to ah Tommy when, when they abduct him and she rapes him, like it's, it is the most fucked up a kind of torture for Tommy specifically, because as we've already outlined, he is somebody who is only looking for love. He's desperate for love.
02:07:59
Speaker
Yeah. So she gives him to the concept of love for him in a way. Like, I'm like, can he ever have a normal, even if he mends fences with his family? like, can he ever have like a normal, like romantic relationship now? Like that he's like going to be fucked forever.
02:08:15
Speaker
yeah And and like to continue with Meg a bit, with when Tommy kind of follows her for a while and she tells him, i can take your pain away. and like She says, I can do this for real. Yeah.
02:08:28
Speaker
Yeah. and And the answer to that, like we're like maybe in the moment we're thinking to ourselves, like oh, does she have those powers too? But like now but obviously not. the The real reason that she says that is because the pain that she can take away and what she can do is genuine connection. She feels that there is a genuine spark there that there, that in some way Tommy is attracted to her and for maybe whatever reason she might be attracted to him. But she is constantly abusing the power dynamic in that relationship. She is constantly taking from him. She's twisting his mind. And because, like we've said, he's a people pleaser and has now been raped by her. Like he what she is doing is actually ah making the pain much worse by showing him the glimpse of taking the pain away through another person. But instead, what she's doing is just further fucking him forever and hopefully bringing him over to the guilty remnant.
02:09:19
Speaker
Right. Like she knows what she has to say to manipulate him specifically. Like, I don't think she has one coherent. That's why, like, when she's in charge, the remnants like kind of do whatever you want. Like the no talking thing is not is like not really as big a deal anymore because and then when, you know, he knows some of the rhetoric, he's been inside these chapters trying to recruit people. ah You know, he says to to her, like, but there is no family. And she's like, no, no family. is the most important thing ever or something and she like tenderly touches him or I think maybe even kisses him on the cheek because she knows that's what he needs to hear like he needs that belonging and so she's like no no family we're cool with family like that you guys are not okay with family that's like the opposite of what you guys are supposed to believe but but she believes in control
02:10:09
Speaker
And it's important that she treats Tommy this way because she's playing the long con to get into
The Guilty Remnant's Impact on Jarden
02:10:15
Speaker
Jarden. Right. And she can't get into Jarden unless she has the connection with Tommy in that way. Right. Like she knows that the the more she burrows into like the Garvey's, the more she has a chance to like, you know, just throw throw the whole wrench into the thing. And because we're kind of talking about like Megan and Tommy kind of mixed into it, I guess we should say what happens because like this is like the the finale of the season pretty much where like the three ah missing girls, they turned out to be defectors to the guilty remnant. They changed their departure. to, you know, create some kind of sense of false hope only for them to come back ah with this like staged terrorism plot to storm Jardin. The guilty remnant want to ah create a paradise lost scenario where now the Garden of Eden is going to get punctured and, you know, the the common folk are going to come in. And to and agree and and the common folk get in and just do... Like, when Kevin's wandering around, bleeding out through the town, I'm like... you guys could just go to Burning Man and do this. Like they're not doing anything. That's like the, they were already doing that shit outside of the park.
02:11:24
Speaker
You know, it's not, it's not like the inside provides anything, which is the point. It's like, there is nothing special about inside those walls. It's just, they've been told that they can't get in And so they're like, well, I want to fucking get in there. well Well, the question we have to ask ourselves is like the thing that guilty remnants put like the message that they put across, I don't necessarily disagree with it even in the sense that like these people do need to give up the traditions of like what Jardin is in their minds because like ultimately, you know, is sacrificing a goat like really stopping anything? No, right? Like these are just things that they're doing to comfort themselves. And by the guilty remnant doing this, it's it's also like confirmation of like we are done, we are alone kind of thing. it's ah It's a realization that these people needed to have because it also freed them. The idea that they're like, you know, you know throwing riots and just partying in the street. People are fucking in the streets even. though It's this idea that like there's no rules anymore, but it's not in like a, you know, ah biblical apocalyptic sense where it's like now it's just hedonism. It's instead a position where it's like they are free of the sins that they believe that they had before. So in a way... Because there are religious people outside of the park. Like it's it like you said, it's not just like Sodom and Gomorrah. Like there's like that one interesting woman that Matt finds who's like...
02:12:49
Speaker
wants to know what kind of Christian he is, is like giving, grilling him on like where he, ah you know, studied at seminary and shit. It's like, she believes in Jesus. Like maybe that, maybe you guys don't have a one for one of like the same Jesus or something, but apparently he gave enough of the correct answers. Cause I'm wondering like, what were the wrong answer?
02:13:08
Speaker
Yeah. Well, well the talk about like the paradise that's just on the outside. like the the The major thing that's keeping people outside of Jarden is income inequality. like they They paid yeah a million dollars to get the house that they were supposed to move into. The fact that they were supposed to move into a house and it burnt down and they're just like, well, better luck next time. The fact that the town has that much demand and that that that's their MO speaks for itself. This is a holy land that was originally protected ah
02:13:38
Speaker
Because ah they were afraid of how the people would kind of intersect with that community and possibly ruin it. Right. But the reality is, is like if it is a holy land, it is for everybody. And what they were doing by keeping people out was not holy. So it's this weird dichotomy that we have to think ah to ourselves. Right. Where it's like, ah you know, the guilty remnant were doing this to literally ruin lives. But in the inverse effect is that it's also healing these people in a weird way. where it's like they they can let go but they're not guilty like people aren't being converted to guilty remnants because of this well it's kind like they uh they kept saying in the first season like they woke up or something that they're that's their job is to uh and even laurie says this in the meeting with the publisher about like what do they believe and she's like what do they believe they believe the fucking world ended you know like so it's uh this idea of like, you guys are all living in denial, like denial about the world ending denial that this town is any different than anywhere else in the world that like anywhere can actually be like capital S safe. Like you, that's a lie. You need to fucking grow up.
02:14:44
Speaker
Like there's like, those are like basically correct ideas, which is why Tommy points out. like, it makes sense. It's seductive reason. It's seductive and pulls people in because it's like, especially in this world, it's like,
02:14:56
Speaker
Yeah, they have a point, you know, like they're going about it in these like ah gross, ah important ways. But it's like that that's it's true, you know, which is why that one woman goes, ah drives her fucking family into a semi like the that.
02:15:14
Speaker
it I mean, I don't know that they intended that when they gave her that message of like any day now, they're just trying to get her to come back, you know, but that that's the logical conclusion of that nihilism of like, well, yeah, the world ended. So it should just I should just killed my family.
02:15:29
Speaker
Yeah. Well, to to go back to that book sequence with Laurie, because it's so important to her character when that happens. But again, the book publisher is not wrong for any of the things that he says, like the fact that he's like he could have a better tone, but he's not wrong.
02:15:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. He could totally have a better tone. Again, another another Kevin Garvey situation, you know, like you better ways of handling this. But the ah the thing that he's saying when when, ah you know, obviously to Laurie, she's really close to the material. So in her mind, like she did pour her heart out to him with this book.
02:16:04
Speaker
But he's like going, like, give us a reason to care to like talk about what happened with your family more. You draw those parallels in those literary terms together to like, you know, really flesh out what happened with you and your family. And it's almost as if like Laurie herself had not connected those dots yet, that she has not come to terms with how much like she had impacted her family with these decisions. Right. I don't think she has. She's been living in denial. Like everyone ah like that, like even though,
02:16:32
Speaker
That it's like the contradiction of if the guilty remnant wants to remind people of the reality of what the world is now. But so many of the people who would be drawn to that want to escape that pain that they're holding on to. So they're living in denial like Meg's living in denial. You know, like that, like we see in that flashback, she's visiting all these psychics, you know, like trying to like she just wants some meaning to something like she has her mom's sweater. She's like wants to know, like, what was my mom going to say? You know, i went to the bathroom. you know, she's doing coke in the bathroom. Also one of the great needle drops of of the season, White Lines. Like, I love yeah the use the use of that. Because first they're just doing it. She's doing coke. But then they drop it again when ah Tommy brings up Miracle. And then she starts laughing. And they play it again. i'm like, oh, she's so fucking scary.
02:17:21
Speaker
ah But, that like, she goes, she sees that same psychic that John burned the house down. And the guy's like... this is why I do think that guy is for real. Cause he maybe like got the message of like what she was going to say. And it's like, do you, you actually want to hear that? Like, it doesn't, it's not going to mean anything. You know, most the time when people, ah maybe if they know they're going to die, they have time to think of something like profound or smart, something or something. But it's like most people who just died, it's like, that was just, it was just been like some incident, something incidental. Like it maybe even could have been negative, you know, like the mother did seem like slightly a bit of a nag, you know, uh, So it who do who knows what that... what And we don't see... Like, she goes... Him like, okay, well, you're just saying that because you're you know not for real. You got to tell me. And I think he does tell her, but we don't see, like, that other end of it. But it wasn't... It did... ah He was right that it didn't, you know, solve her pain.
02:18:14
Speaker
Like, it's like, there is no answer for that. Like, you actually just have to deal... And also... ah You know, I think in the last episode we said that that fiance, who you knows, he probably wouldn't have been the best husband. But how patient is this motherfucker? Because they were engaged before the departure, ah before, like, they're engaged when she's having the conversation with that mother, with the mother. And this was like...
02:18:39
Speaker
three years later is when the show starts so that that's when she joins the remnant he stayed with her that whole time i mean why you know there's something to be said for that kudos to that guy true love true love you know like really really sticking it out trying to waiting till the last moment you know ah and she looks like live tyler that helps i'm like gosh she's so fucking hot i can't leave but One thing I did want to say about Liv Tyler specifically is like personally, I'm not a huge fan of her. I don't think that she's like my favorite actress in the world. ah But what I will say is that I love what she's doing here in The Leftovers because she's kind of inverting her usual performance style where she is very steely. She's very like ah cold. ah co She usually plays gentle girl, you know, like that's like the the archetype. And this is like she's still speaking in that soft way. But it's like.
02:19:32
Speaker
what if that was evil? You know, like, ah yeah. And it's terrifying. Like, she knows that. And I think that speaks to the command that Liv Tyler has over that, you know, perspective, that that character that we have kind of come to nowhere as, where she can now, like, subvert that. And especially with how, like, we get it later on, where it's like, the timer's ticking down, you've got the three girls on the bridge.
02:19:58
Speaker
I believe a bomb's going off. I already saw that the grenade was thrown in the school bus. I saw that it didn't go off. So in my mind, I should know that that's what's happening. And we know that they've been gathering explod like we see this whole compound that she takes Tommy to that they're amassing something. And then even basically like the board of directors of the guilty remnant she meets with. And they're like, ah so we buy plastic explosives for and you're like, holy shit. Like, what is what is she gearing up for?
02:20:24
Speaker
Well, it's also important to note that, like, ah even though, like, in the afterlife we've seen, like, the Guilty Remnant as, like, running the country, i don't get the impression that, like, the Guilty Remnant are any bigger than they were at the and the beginning of, like, the first season. I feel like they they're kind of, like, the same, you know, people believe in them, people don't, you know, they exist kind of thing. They're not really, like, a growing movement the same way that, like,
02:20:49
Speaker
You would expect them. They're only growing in the sense of more guilty remnant people die because they don't care if they live or die. You know, like Lori just ran some over with their car or something. One of them didn't make it, ends up in the hotel or something. They're adding numbers that way. But yeah, I don't think their influence is like as that much larger. I also think it's just like, yeah, just like a limited population because ah it's like, yeah, is this only whatever pocket dimension this is is? like, that's just people who've died since the departure, which is, you know, it's globally would be a number that would reach ah some significance, but it's like, it's just, it's not the whole world, you know, it's like less people to exert control over.
02:21:29
Speaker
Yeah, and it's just ah like with the guilty remnants, what what happens with them, like, you know, creating this fracture is like it it is, again, in line with them, you know, being personally slighted. You know, they they are like individually going after the Murphys and the families of these girls who are on the bridge. But then ultimately it is also puncturing the idea of Jardin itself and ruining the conception of it.
02:21:56
Speaker
But again, it's like, you know, Jarden itself was never really this holy place in my mind. So it's like when it does fall, when we get this moment of like the the gates have been breached, I don't see that as ah like really like a massive positive or negative either way. I'm like, it it needed to happen.
02:22:11
Speaker
The scary part is that you're just worried about the people we care about, something happening to them in the chaos, because there is that heroing moment where that... woman outside takes the Lily and cause like we see her come up to Nora earlier. It's like, that's not your baby. And and then she takes the baby and is running with the whole people trying to rush inside. And then the baby's just on the bridge. It's like, Holy shit.
02:22:34
Speaker
That was stressful. So there's, and that I feel like that wakes Tommy. Cause I, on a moment to moment basis, I don't think Tommy knows what the fuck he wants. Like, like you said, like he just wants that approval in that love. But, Seeing that baby, specifically that baby that he, you know, had saved and, you know, ah left ah for for for them is in mortal danger, you know, that he's like, okay, I got to, you know, like there's some, the family is very motivating for him. So to see that that that child literally in danger, i do think snaps him out of it a little bit.
02:23:08
Speaker
Yeah, and it also is a moment for Nora as well in that moment with the baby on the bridge. And it's speaking to her arc, which we'll obviously get to soon. The idea that, like, even though she is chasing normalcy and she's kind of in a position like ah Kevin was in the first season where she's kind of ignoring things to kind of just move along. ah She ah in that moment, she sees the child in danger and she has to spring into action as well. And like that's a moment where she is stepping up and she's putting aside the things that were hang ups for her. You know, it's like she she says that she wants to be a parent, but like she does a pretty bad job parenting this whole season. This is the moment where she steps up.
02:23:49
Speaker
Yeah, yeah. she It's kind of like Kevin has to fully, like, ah at at a very heightened level, has to accept that responsibility. That's her, like, literally throwing her life on the line for this child of, like, no, that's your child. Yeah, you legally adopted him, but will you die for him?
02:24:05
Speaker
you get trampled by a mob for him? And I think that there is like a really serene moment, like in a weird way, I should say. It's not actually serene, but it's like there's there's a moment with juxtaposition of serene serenity where it's like there's the moment where you see Lily on the bridge and all the people are running around the baby. Like usually like, you know, something like ah crowds running like that trample city. You know, people get trampled. Adults do, you know, like ah maybe in the middle of that. There's like a force field around it.
02:24:35
Speaker
it feels that way. Like feet are just stepping right by its head and arms and legs. Right. So the fact that it's, you know, in that position and that's happening again, the show is kind of like playing with this idea of like, it's meant to be, I have this moment to save the child at this exact moment. And it's this idea that like this baby is being protected for me to be able to enact this thing from the character's perspective is it's ah you know, it's just further building out that there is, you know, some kind of, ah things that they need to take care of within their cells, but then they also feel like divinely ah pushed and compelled to complete these tasks.
02:25:12
Speaker
ah Well said. ah Do you mind if we ah pause so I can take a bathroom and break?