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Operation Avalanche (2016)
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And for Matt Johnson's next trick, he will fake the moon landing
00:00Introduction to Operation Avalanche
03:05Exploring Found Footage and Mockumentary Styles
05:59Thematic Depth and Commentary on Filmmaking
08:56The Role of Technology and Authenticity in Filmmaking
11:44Character Dynamics and Relationships
14:54Conspiracies and Historical Context
17:43The Climax and Resolution of the Film
20:59Final Thoughts on Matt Johnson's Filmmaking Style
38:18Conspiracy Theories and Cinema
39:57Character Performances in Political Films
43:09The Nature of Collaboration in Filmmaking
46:14Exploring Conspiracy Theories in Operation Avalanche
49:01Action and Suspense in Found Footage
52:09The Thrill of the Chase
57:44Emotional Weight and Character Development
01:00:47Cultural Commentary and Filmmaking Style
01:04:34The DIY Spirit of Independent Filmmaking
01:10:22Looking Ahead: Future Projects and Expectations
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Transcript
Introduction and Matt Johnson's Filmography
00:00:24
Speaker
And we back, everybody. We're back. We're back on These Guys Got Juice. And we're talking about ah the second feature film in Matt Johnson's filmography.
00:00:34
Speaker
That's right, folks. We're talking about Operation Avalanche. I just took over the fucking introduction. No, I mean, youre that this is this is this is your series. like This is a Canadian culture. he's I didn't even ask for this. You said, let's do this. And I was like,
Filmmaking Style and 'Operation Avalanche'
00:00:50
Speaker
let's do this. You forced me a gunpoint. You were like, Doug, we need to cover Matt Johnson movies. And I was like, I guess. he insist see Being fully transparent, like I haven't even like, you know, like for like when it comes to like series, like the worst for me was found footage. I just found, I just fed into that, you know, like we didn't even get to psycho the the family. Oh, it's yeah it's going to happen. And I think...
00:01:18
Speaker
on stream or some live thing would be like the way to do it but we're not talking about that film we're talking about fucking operation avalanche the second film by matt johnson found footage film like no other that's right folks if if if i was known as the found footage guy i'm not beating those charges again By doing a a director who's all
Historical Setting and Accuracy
00:01:44
Speaker
of his... Well, BlackBerry isn't found footage, but like we keep saying, like there there's shots that like echo that ethos in it.
00:01:51
Speaker
But it otherwise, ah the rest of his filmography is found footage. Or mockumentary. Probably... this one's most blatantly found footage because with 30s, there was a level of like subjectivity.
00:02:05
Speaker
Yeah. It was even found footage. And then with Nirvana, the band, the show, it's almost like the more you think about if it's found footage, the funnier it gets. Um, And with this, instead, it's like this is definitely rooted in traditional found footage storytelling techniques, but then its focus is far different. And it's certainly rooted within who Matt Johnson is as a filmmaker age wise. And there's certainly much in terms of commentary about the era, but i but but kind of like kind of enter into this conversation because we're talking about, because we we jumped around a
Comparing with 'The Dirties'
00:02:41
Speaker
bit. We did The Dirties, then we did his most recent film with Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Now we're time traveling. And we're going to go back.
00:02:47
Speaker
but Now we're going back and we're going back even further, right? We're going back to the sixties. And, and, and there's, there's something with this movie where like there's there's certain ah moments where the reality definitely breaks, right? Like I feel like there's certain aspects of this where it's like, if you know about the technology made in this era, this movie is kind of impossible.
00:03:09
Speaker
But if you experience it as just the ride that it is, I think that you can enjoy it fully.
Action Sequences and Found Footage
00:03:16
Speaker
Yeah. One thing I will say about this movie just before like we get into the deeper things is like I feel like Dirty's works better and cleaner as like a contained narrative. But the the reach of Operation Avalanche, like the kind of like seeing like what Matt Johnson as a filmmaker wants to accomplish and what he is already commenting upon, this isn't like a failure, but this is something where it's like there's so many different... like so threads as ah as a storyteller that I'm very interested in seeing what he gloms on to. And you do see that as he continues making films.
00:03:47
Speaker
it's It's a shaggier film because like I kind of had the reputation of people who have seen all this film. People say like this is kind of his his worst or his messiest. And I would say like as a contained narrative like I guess there are, there's like less guardrails to this in in a way. But to me, that's like a plus and fits like what we're exploring here because ah this is kind of about like testing the bounds of like what we're supposed to know and, and, and inspiratorial thinking and things like that. It's like if the filmmaking itself starts to feel like, like, cause it doesn't feel like it's getting away from him. If anything, by the time you get to the end,
00:04:29
Speaker
he's like almost getting bolder. Like there's a fucking, there's, there's set pieces in Matt Johnson movie, you know, like with the whole back to the future end of Nirvana, the band show, the movie, but like, there's a straight up like bar chase action scene in the end of operation avalanche. And it fucking rules. It's like, like one of my best found footage set pieces ever. I, yeah, it's like one of my favorite action things I've seen in a found footage movie. It's, it's, it's like showing like how immersive the action in that medium can
Meta-narrative and Themes
00:05:00
Speaker
be. Cause I like, I've, I haven't even watched like something like hardcore Henry where they're like, we made a whole action movie and it's like a first person shooter.
00:05:09
Speaker
It's a great movie. I have to watch it? Okay, I will. Yeah, it's a great movie. It's it's not it's an amazing movie, but it's a great movie. you It just seemed like a little bit like I would get ahead, but I'll watch.
00:05:21
Speaker
take Take some pills, why don't you? some some Yeah, some anti-nausea or anti-motion sickness. Yeah, exactly. I was telling you, get over yourself, Doug. Watch the movie. ah I mean, Kojima had to get over himself. that You know, that's why the Metal Gears originally had a camera. I had idea. He gets motion sick. And then so they finally added.
00:05:44
Speaker
And I think the first game they added for like the re-release of Metal Gear Solid 3, if you spin the camera around enough, Snake vomits. That's, you know, there's a reason why he's awesome. Yeah.
00:05:55
Speaker
I'm a big fan of Kojima, if that says. Kojima, come on the pod. Kojima, we've been asking. you know if you if you want to Also, if you want to scan us, I don't care. Hey, and you know what? If you come on the pod, like I'm not asking you to like, you know, talk to your friends or whatever, but I'm i'm just saying like, if you want to bring Gaspar in no way I'm just saying, I think that that would be a really good discussion. I think that we could really get to the heart of some things.
00:06:20
Speaker
If you want to bring the ghost of Udo Kier... Like, don't know if you have some kind of digital, digital ghost. Cause he was in a thing of his that's coming out. i think Yeah. Yeah. He's already recorded a bunch of shit.
00:06:32
Speaker
Uh, but yeah, no, uh, we carry the ghost of Ugo Kier with all of us. Uh, to get back to, uh, operation avalanche a bit, right. To steer us back onto that. Uh, and, and, and one thing I definitely want to say is I want to take everything you said about the climax of this film. i want to put it in a box. I want to save it for later. No, no, no. We'll get to that in time. i just got excited because I was like talking big picture about like what this film does. wait see but but But you also said it so so so like so you said such a good thing that I'm like, i want to talk about that, but I also want to put that off to the side for the moment. Because I do feel like if we're talking about, like okay, what is this movie? right and and And when people are talking about this movie, they they say like it's a ah
00:07:13
Speaker
it's a mockumentary found footage documentary film about, uh, the faking of the moon landing. And it's shot from the perspective of people from the early, sorry, the the late sixties, as there is this race to the moon, uh, with the Russians, of the Americans and,
00:07:31
Speaker
What I like about this movie is that, you know, there's always been this conspiracy theory, this idea of like, did a man actually go to the moon when America said that they did? Did they fake it? And the common conspiracy theory was always like, oh, Stanley Kubrick did it. And I've seen 2001. That was real space.
00:07:51
Speaker
Exactly. but but but But what I find interesting about this film is that like Matt Johnson in the conception of this film was like, no, instead, let's imagine what CIA's idea of faking the moon landing is because like Stanley Kubrick is like the dumb layman's idea, right? So it's like, okay, so like imagine if you work for the CIA and you found yourself in the position to make fake the moon landing, how would you find yourself in that position? Yeah. And like all of the creative decisions, the found footage, the way that they capture all these things, all that stuff is worked backwards from that
Mockumentary Style and Moon Landing
00:08:26
Speaker
initial idea. This idea that like, how would we capture the person who directed the fake moon landing? And that itself is its own piece of filmmaking. That itself is its own piece of cinema history, right? And I feel like Matt Johnson, even early on in his career, is finding a way to comment upon ah traditional or even iconic films
00:08:49
Speaker
cinema history in a very interesting way. Yeah, because there is something to when they start, you know doing ah Bad Moon Rising, Needle Drop, there's like a, you know, Fortunate Son. and a me anyway oh Like stuff that you would expect, like so Stuff that is like, oh, these are what you play to show the era. Because like, I'm pretty sure at least one or both. The Fortunate Song for sure is in Forrest Gump in in the Vietnam era.
00:09:23
Speaker
But so it's it's like. This movie's doing a lot of Forrest Gump. Yeah. it Well, like literally two in some of the techniques, but like ah the, ah the fact that it's invoking those songs that are like so tied to this era, it it's, it's not just welcoming you in on like, this is what we're doing. This is where it is. But I feel like it's almost him kind of announcing little Babe Ruth style of like, this is kind of stuff we're going to be like,
00:09:49
Speaker
decont if not deconstructing, but like opening up a little bit and like looking at from a different angle, even if I'm giving you seemingly some of the things that you would expect from this.
00:10:00
Speaker
There's one big thing that we have to get out of the way right now, right? So this movie was obviously not shot on film. This movie was obviously shot digitally, similar to the ways that they had made previous films, but I believe they used red cameras.
00:10:13
Speaker
They used Blackmagic cameras for this, not 16 millimeter, not even eight millimeter, probably for what the period would be. But honestly, it's it's better than like, because it doesn't feel like it's just a filter put over it. Like, i it seems like that there was it tweaking. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. Like, it's what I wanted to get to.
00:10:35
Speaker
oh Oh, sure. like like like because like the the the thing is like the the camera itself would be too loud the the the kind of technology that they're using for like them doing wireless labvs the way they they are it wouldn't be as seamless as they are making it seem in the film the reason i'm bringing this up right now is because even though the the concept of you know how integrated is the technology something i've brought up on ah many of our found footage episodes um what i What I'm saying here is that it doesn't matter, is that this movie is is just saying like, okay, we we are not so much asking you to buy into these people actually filming these things, but we're asking you to buy into the spirit of these people. And when you look at what this story is actually about, it's actually very similar in terms of beats.
00:11:22
Speaker
to the dirties. Oh, absolutely. Down to post-star Owen. ah It's, it's a, you know, two friends and one friend is always pushing things so so far and, and to the point where it pauses rupture in the French. He even like when they're scouting out like shooting locations for their moon stunt and he's like he's on the cliff and he's like doing like some shadow boxing. That's a scene in the dirties when they're on a cliffside and Matt says to Owen of like wouldn't this be like a cool scene if I was like box shot of me boxing here. So he just does put that shot and in in this movie.
00:12:04
Speaker
it's There are so many great echoes from the dirties to this one, and specifically with the arc, there's this idea of like, cause because obviously the CIA work, it's a metaphor for filmmaking itself, and there's this idea that like there's the the Matt Johnson types where it's like he's going to become a filmmaker, right? But then Owen's like off getting real life experiences almost, you know, just like,
00:12:30
Speaker
Separate from what he's doing, he's like having a wife and kids, you know like really, truly interfacing with the world. right And Matt Johnson's just like, how do how can I make a fake thing?
00:12:42
Speaker
How can I i going to recreate something? you know how can i How can I capture this moment? Hasn't even happened yet. and And in his mind, he's justifying it as like, oh, you know how can we disprove
Character Dynamics and Themes
00:12:54
Speaker
a fake? And then it becomes, how do we fake Right. And it's a very natural progression. Because, yeah, I like that it's his idea. This is not their assignment. Like there's there's text in the beginning saying that, like, they these are like ah students who were recruited into the CIA and their mission is they they were just sent.
00:13:13
Speaker
ah to find a mole within ah na NASA, which is another, they they talked themselves into being able to to do that. Like that wasn't even their original assignment. So they got that gig.
00:13:25
Speaker
And then Matt keeps escalating it because when they he they intercept the call that like we won't be able to get to, the it'll be like another five years or something that we we won't be able to get there. ah so that He's trying to get a show at the Rivoli.
00:13:40
Speaker
That's what this feels like. He's trying to get a show with the Rivoli. So he just to the CIA director that that they could fucking that they can fake it themselves. And so it's like, yeah, it works as the metaphor for filmmaking, but then it also works in like the commentary for the era. Cause it's like, what are not just the era, but like American intelligence apparatus at large. Cause like, it is all smoke and mirrors and in it's theater. Like, you know, like what is a spy, but an ah an actor in a way, you know, like that there's someone pretending to be someone else to for, for, for some other purpose. So it's like, yeah, this is like filmmaking is our related thing. I mean, one is being used for, you know, evil, the CIA, the,
00:14:21
Speaker
I should have One is being used for evil, Hollywood, and then the other is used for good. The CIA is the, they keep us safe. Of course. Jim Albert said so. it's in mind ah By the way, how interesting is it, by the way, that Canadian filmmaker was like, by we're going to move into an American film at this point, right? Just like this is this is a story about America, right? the history of America and is in for this whole thing, as as you've illustrated, that like while they're here to try to look for the mole, like Matt Johnson's character, I think, I believe is still called Matt, right? Yeah, yeah. Most of them are using their names still. Like Matt is Matt. Owen's Owen.
00:15:03
Speaker
ah One of the their CIA handler. Like that's his real. What's his name? ah jo but Josh Bowles. Yeah. So that's that's Josh. That's who he is.
00:15:14
Speaker
There's a reason for that that we'll get into very soon. ah but when it comes to this element in particular, um like you can tell that it's again, like Matt is a cinephile and that he's coming into this as a filmmaker first and not as a CIA agent. And I think that there is a level of artistry and impassioned expression that comes from this that I think gives Operation Avalanche a really bittersweet edge and You came into this saying something along the lines of like, oh, you know, like fans say that this is kind of like the lesser. I think that this just kind of takes a different tone. Yeah. And and I do have some different, I have some issues with this film. i I would probably say it's the weakest of the match. on say It's not perfect, but what it's doing differently is very compelling to me.
00:16:03
Speaker
Yeah, it's it's not leagues worse. Like, it's still an interesting filmmaker experimenting is the way I view it. It's just an interesting... Because, like hump like, we said in the the terms of found footage movies, it's doing something unique. Like, I can't think of a total... Any other, like... There's been mockumentaries or found footage things that deal with, like, conspiracy theories. But, like, ones that are, like, pretty much just straight up, like...
00:16:27
Speaker
this is the plot of a spy movie or this is like JFK, but done in found footage. Like, like just, just doing that on its own. ah and And the fact that it's mostly pulled off, like, like, like, yes, there are things where you see the seams of like where he's edited himself Forrest Gump style into like a control room shot.
Technical Achievements and 1960s Aesthetic
00:16:48
Speaker
Hilarious moment.
00:16:50
Speaker
I don't care. i mean, it adds to it. I have to think the fact that it's clearly fake because it's like, it's about people who are trying to fake something. So then we're seeing like the showing us the level of artifice is, is like, that's, that's brilliant because like that's, we're seeing the modern version of it of like green, you know, we're not using rear projection like ah Kubrick did, but like front, bri front projection, he's front projection, front projection. Sorry, rear, rear, rear projections in like,
00:17:19
Speaker
movies when they're in the car yeah and they're not really moving and you see a bunch of shit happening behind or like in the airplane when they just show like like a stampede happening behind them in the car. I really loved his description of the difference between rear projection and front projection and also feeds into this idea that Matt Johnson is more of a filmmaker than he is like an actual, you know, thing, ah yeah like CIA agent. but But to kind of go into this like, you know,
00:17:46
Speaker
ah deeper thing about it, right? Like the Forrest Gump of it, when there was that green screen moment, like the thing that stuck out to me was that it was just a very famous clip.
00:17:56
Speaker
Like I had seen that clip so many times and and for him to be in that clip, I was like, okay, I've seen this as B-roll in documentary. I kind of wanted more of that. If they could have found some way to put him in the crowd of like a Kennedy speech or something or, or put, if the movie had a bigger budget or could have gone bigger, like made him right be on like the grassy knoll or some shit like it.
00:18:20
Speaker
well Well, let's not shortchange the movie because there is actually a large part of this film. That's very impressive. And Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's ambitious. It's ambitious. Yeah. I want to explain this because this is like a very important part about the production of this film. And and I want to say this because like I feel like people even kind of overinflate how much of this is in the film. And you can attest this as somebody who just watched it for the first time. But like a big selling point for this film was that a lot of the early stuff, especially when they are in NASA, they just kind of snuck into NASA and just got actual interviews with people. who were just like working at NASA and incorporated those interviews within the film, like Blair Witch style, where they were going like, oh, tell us about the moon program. And you can tell it's whenever they're in like that PR office. And and it's if someone's dressed in a way that's not specifically 60, like, like, you know, that guy's wearing like a flannel or like something, you know, it's like, yeah, OK, this guy seems like he's from now.
00:19:25
Speaker
There are definitely moments where, similar to the Nirvana, the band that show the movie, where like they were clear, like, okay, this is where they got extras, right? There are moments where that happens. But there like the the thing is, Matt Johnson, hot take, he's a great filmmaker. you know like He understands when to switch those things out and to be like, okay, here's the interview, and here's the thing that we fake. you know and and And to to show...
00:19:49
Speaker
those things side by side. And in the real interviews recede over time. Like, it's a lot more front-loaded in terms of, like, getting be not just narratively, like, that's when they're in those offices and that's when they would be there, but I feel like it's almost thematic intentional of like, we start more grounded in reality and then we, like, drift from that as as as reality within for these characters is distorted. They're making something fake and then they start, stop being able to like kind of see the bounds of like what the real danger is around them.
00:20:24
Speaker
because Because there's a really interesting point where like there's all the stuff that where they're learning about the mole and then they're like learning about like the chances of faking it.
Historical Realism vs Artistic License
00:20:33
Speaker
And there's that time period where they travel across America.
00:20:37
Speaker
where they like go to all these different, like just canyonous areas, right? And I love that moment in the film because like it feels like them like having the best time of their early 20s, right? It feels less like they're doing something for a job, but more so that they're like friends who are just like, isn't it cool that we were able to hang out this way? And like things collapse in a very particular fashion right after that the moment. Yeah. But like there's there's something about that whole like period where it's like they're working for the CIA. They're trying to do the mole thing.
00:21:10
Speaker
But like they're so hyped up on we're going to fake a moon thing or we're going to try to make something so close to the moon. I really appreciate this moment in the film. Well, and we should say, like, we were comparing it to the dirties, especially the Owen and Matt of it all. Their relationship deteriorates way faster in this. Like, as soon as Owen, Owen already has trepidations as soon as Matt lies ah and says that they have a mission to, you know, create a fake moon landing. He's like, like, yeah, don't you feel this is, like, wrong or and you have ethical concerns about this? And then as soon as he learns that Matt made up the mission,
00:21:45
Speaker
bunches him and then he's distant from him the whole time. i mean, they still are... He's in the movies still, but like he's he's going on less things. Like he's helping with the filming of it, but he's like... Like there's trips that he then takes with just bowls, you know, like the handle the handler who's like kind of thinks that Matt's an idiot, but even that then they start kind of getting along and bonding when they're like checking out mountains and stuff.
00:22:08
Speaker
But like it's interesting that it's... Because there is no like third party in the dirties. It's just... Matt has no one else. So like there's there's nowhere else for him to go when when when Owen shuts him out.
00:22:20
Speaker
and And it's a different Matt this time, right? In the sense that like Matt, I would say that like out of all the versions of Matt that we've seen through like Nirvana, the band, the show and like... ah obviously with the dirties, even with Matt and Mara, when you do catch that film. um When it comes to ah Matt in this film, he's like the most outwardly presenting as an official adult, as somebody could move through society in a successful fashion. ah But he's still caught up in the charms of what is exciting about being a filmmaker. Right. And I keep coming back to this idea of being a filmmaker because like,
00:23:02
Speaker
This idea that Matt Johnson, the character in this movie, faked the moon landing, like, that makes him one of the best filmmakers of all time, right? Yeah.
00:23:13
Speaker
I mean, there's a great line towards the end when he's like kind of having a very Jason Bourne moment on the phone with the the CIA director and he's threatening to expose everything. Like, you know, they have the tape, you know, the things we've been watching. He has all the tapes of everything that they've, they've done.
00:23:30
Speaker
And the director's like, no one will believe that. And he's like, well, I, my last movie, everyone's convinced everyone we went to the moon. So why don't you try me And, like Like you said, this Matt Johnson character is the most ah believable as an adult. But then I'd also argue, despite the fact that he faked the moon landing, that kind of has the most moral of a moral center. Like like that like he he's he's seduced by the filmmaking and the like the artistry of that. and like what He's not thinking through like a...
00:24:02
Speaker
typical Matt Johnson scenario. He's not thinking through like what this all means, but like once that settles with him, he's not okay with it. And also like, yeah, none of the stuff that follows like that.
00:24:16
Speaker
He's just, he's just, you know, like, like ah his character in the dirties, he's kind of just like outside of reality for a little bit when he gets to do through filmmaking, you know, like I made comparisons that,
00:24:28
Speaker
moment in the Fablemans where he's watching himself film his parents divorce. It's like, that's kind of like the way Matt Johnson or at least his characters experience reality. But then there's a moment or at least in this, there is a definitive moment that pulls him down to reality. And then how he reacts soberly to this, you know, what, what has occurred, I think is, is telling of like that this is, yeah, he's, he's like a decent guy. Like he's not like evil.
00:24:58
Speaker
Yeah, he's some manipulating Owen in any like malicious fashion. if anything, like Matt's a pretty pitiful character because he's trying to make all these things work and people are not seeing his vision until the very end. That's part of the reason why I think this is like a lesser film in Matt Johnson's filmography because it feels a little self-congratulatory. It feels like a film where it's like, nobody believed that I could do what I did with dirties. And here it I am being like, look at what I pulled off kind of thing, you know? And like, I can see people taking offense to that or not even offense, but just like kind of abrasive to the chutzpah that this movie is purveying. But that being said, it's like,
00:25:40
Speaker
ah the hoods was like compelling to me like the balls of it of of just of just doing the story this way and like you said the reality of like not just the tech but then just little things of like you know ah the incentive for them to fake this, you know, so they're like talking about like, Oh, how close the Soviets were to actually landing someone. They weren't that close, you know, like, like even it, like they're, they're fudging things to increase the state. Well, also you can give it the excuse of like, they're getting that information through bowls. Like you can't trust anything that they're really told by, because like they are also fed clearly fake information too, about a mole, like from, from him. So yeah,
00:26:23
Speaker
Like you could be like the dead that ah them being told about the Soviets being close is just, you know, that's just a reason they they were given to to motivate them. Mm-hmm. ah the the The whole intrigue, the the whole like spy is there is or not. Like, i feel like that's a lot of busy work in terms of like to keep the audience on edge more than I felt like a serious like threat.
Thrilling Chase Sequences
00:26:47
Speaker
um It doesn't feel like a serious because I feel like I'm following Matt in terms of like being excited about like this. It's more like a heist film initially of like, can we pull this off? Here's the plan. yeah And then I feel like once it becomes clear that it is going to be pulled off, then that's when I start feeling the and I just like spy stuff that I start buying into the paranoia of like, you know, like the scenes of like, oh. who's this guy following us? Like, and getting a call from Owen of like, they're they're outside my house. And then everything that follows from that, I'm like, that's when I'm locked in into like it being like a spy thriller. And that, get the fucking awesome car chase. I mean, we'll we'll we'll get we'll get to the car chase, but but i'm I'm saying it terms car chase in terms like how it flows, like I do start to lock in at a certain point in terms of the spy narrative.
00:27:37
Speaker
the people, to the people, people, Bye.
00:27:51
Speaker
Just real quick, you ah as a Gorillaz fan, ah do you fuck with the Avalanches at all? I feel like there's like a the cross, so you know, like an overlap in terms of like just vibe. So so there's there's only the two Avalanche albums, right? Or is there multiple albums? Three. ah so Sorry, I...
00:28:14
Speaker
for For me, like, i'm I'm an Avalanche fan from, like, the the first album, you know? Like, the first album, what I always say about the first album is, like, go on an airplane, right, and listen to the first Avalanche's album, right? you will have no complaints. that's That's a perfect album to listen to on an airplane. See, is for me, the second album, Wildfire, is the one. my My advice, don't take a plane ride, drop a tab or two of acid, walk around. on a good day. Sure.
00:28:45
Speaker
And then that's, uh, that's how you do that one. I think Wildflower has some great singles, but ah the first album flows together so much better. The first one is like such a, such a full experience. And, and, and when I think about Wildflower and if we're relating it to the gorillas whole thing, um I would say that that album feels like that one after Plastic Beach, you know, the one where it was, what was it, like Human Days or whatever? Like it was something like that. they They kind of did the Demon Days kind of logo for the album. Right. You I'm talking about? Yeah, I know what you're talking about.
00:29:24
Speaker
like Like Wildflower to me felt like that album for the gorillas. And no offense to Wildflower and Joyer. It's like you're going say, ouch, fucking it's found dead. No, I mean, like that's still a good gorillas album. It's just good after Plastic Beach. It's, you know, yeah. It's it's tough. it's a rough It's a hard act to follow. Plastic Beach is probably their best album in my opinion.
00:29:45
Speaker
For me, I feel like it's the time between things that like I can enjoy Wildflower as it's because for me, it does flow. I usually do. I do listen to some of the singles, but like I often will just put it, we can listen from beginning to end. It's also not that long. So like, it was like, oh yeah, this will, you know, eat up like 40 minutes.
00:30:06
Speaker
um But i yeah, I think it's a good beginning to end listen. Again, another Snoop Dogg verse on that one. um But on on the note of Operation Avalanche, because we're talking about like how this conspiracy theory angle is kind of wrapping around them, I feel like a lot of this film is about like ah the conspiracies of even of then, but even of now. Of now, because there's a scene when he's trying to get a hold of Goobrook, because we've alluded to of like...
00:30:39
Speaker
Yeah, ah that it's not that Kubrick shot the moon landing, it's that they wanted to know how he was doing his film. It was kind of by accident that he's trying to find Kubrick to like hire, because I think the line, Owen's like, yeah, why don't you get like a real filmmaker? And like they had already been looking at Kubrick as after ah fucking Dr. Strangelove to determine whether he was a communist. So they're trying to figure out like, God, do we still have his info? And then he's calling around, he finds out they're shooting something in in the UK. He's like, what are you guys doing over there and finds out it's like a space movie. ah But when he's like asking, calling, asking about the room or like where he's like room 237 or something. there's There's like a, so the direct call out to that. ah And I think, yeah, it's, it's not just steeped in the, the ah conspiracies of the time, ah but also the now, but also referencing things of the time and then kind of twisting them to, for the narrative, because
00:31:35
Speaker
the CIA is all backup ah plan that they reference is called a project Northwoods. And in the movie Northwoods is that they're just going to pull up the Apollo and blame the Soviets fucking false flag. The actual like declassified what we know about Northwoods. It all, it was a false flag thing, but they were just basically just going to do like, kind like some nine 11s around ah the, uh,
00:32:03
Speaker
like around Miami area and blame it on Cuba. Like that, was that was, that was the plan. As you do. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that's like we said, like, yeah what is the CIA? It's smoke and mirrors. It's them like creating a narrative, storytelling. That's that's that's so that's what a false flag operation is.
00:32:22
Speaker
and And it's like, what's interesting with this movie is that it kind of comes out like what, 2014, 2015? Is that when this movie came out? Or is it just later than that?
00:32:34
Speaker
ah Uh, 20, uh, 2016. Oh yeah. So there it is.
Conclusion and Future Projects
00:32:42
Speaker
Perfect. So definitely by this time, conspiracy, it's not like they ever went away, but like there's more other stuff that supplanted it by that time. Like they're not the dominant conspiracy theory voice. We're in a post like Alex Jones becoming popularized world, right? Like we're in a space where everybody knows who he is and what his shtick is. and And now Matt Johnson is here to kind of like talk about, but what if they're they were right, you know? and he should make a Bohemian Grove movie. Hey, why not? I call it True Detective Season 2. Right.
00:33:20
Speaker
Bubba Booy. Fucking Vince Vaughn on speed dial. ah It's speed of which Dallas Saunier connection in Pendragon. I can't wait to talk about that on Sunday. you' going out there um But when it comes to fucking ah this...
00:33:38
Speaker
project. i I feel like it's talking about these conservative conspiracy theories, but then it's looking at it from a very pragmatic sense. And I think that there is a degree of like, you know like there's some level of naivete in how this world's, this film's politics lie. But I also feel as though ultimately it's about like,
00:34:01
Speaker
these people who kind of are tricked into this position. And it's, it's ultimately one where they want to do a good job because they want to also be proud of what they make. And, and going back to that whole filmmaker thing, it's like, you know, this is like almost like George Millie, you know, this is almost like, you know, ah fucking Thomas Edison. This is, I mean, the fact that they keep showing like a trip to the moon, like that, that's like not just invoke, but he's like studying it, you know, like that, that's like,
00:34:30
Speaker
He is his ambition is to do something groundbreaking on that level. Yeah. And let's be real. That's what the moon landing is for me. I'm not a conspiracy theorist on the moon landing. I make no allusions to that. Yeah, I think I think I think they did it Like, I don't know. The evidence seems the point to that it happened.
00:34:55
Speaker
like You spent all that money and for what? You know, like that that would be my way of looking at it. Right. And ah at the end of the day, like. Like we definitely went to the moon at other points. So like it would just be like that one time we think like, I don't know.
00:35:11
Speaker
That'd be weird. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because this movie is presenting it as this fiction. and I buy it for this movie being about this construction of this piece. And as we have alluded to before, Owen doesn't really want to be involved with it as much like he is constantly distancing himself from the project. And even trying so to get Matt fired from.
00:35:33
Speaker
Like he's calling, he's been calling the, we see him take off his microphone and go to the phone several times. And I feel like the movie is almost presented because there's still like the whole mole thing in the air. So you're like, is Owen the mole? I never thought that that's where they were going. I, yeah but I, I feel like the movie is like leaving that yeah of like, um yeah, it could be any anybody, even though like the the movie, it doesn't matter who the mole is like with, like what, Yeah, it doesn't. I think it's the cameraman, to be honest with you. I think it's that burly cameraman with all the cigarette cigars, you know, who gives him the prints. You know, I'm like, yeah, it's always him. That's the way. Yeah. He's always at the scene of the crime.
00:36:13
Speaker
ah But but no. Yeah. He was calling the director trying to get Matt fired because he wants this shut. He wants both of them off of it. Like it's. the It's getting too close. He's worried about what's going to happen to He just had a kid. And as we find out. He was right. Very reasonably so. Because like as you get closer to. Because like you said, it is following the logic of like, okay, so what if that these paranoid conservative conspiracies were real?
00:36:41
Speaker
But then it's kind of like a weird. if then exercise of like, okay, let's follow this through. The CIA just faked the moon landing. Now they need to cover it up. You know, like it's like, that's like, yeah they're all loose ends now.
00:36:55
Speaker
it like I don't want to jump around too much, but we the ending does that need to be discussed in conjuncture with that, right? Because the ending of this film is about like yeah how they supposedly get immunity, but the ending of the film is about like ah them watching in the shop front, the same as everybody else, the moon landing that they had made, right? And then it cuts right to credits. And i think there's a certain magic in that moment, Right. Where they're able to enjoy the belief that everybody has within their work.
00:37:28
Speaker
But then also thinking about this as like a found footage film. Right. Like I'm thinking about this, like, did this film get released because these people finally decided to release it? Or was this like the JFK files had a certain statute of limitations as they already do in life? Like they've already killed these guys and we're now we're just finding it years later because this has been disclosed.
00:37:52
Speaker
doling it out, right? Right. and And by the way, I do have to say that, like, you know, i have to hand it to this film where it doesn't try to, like, you know, go the same way as JFK, right? in That Oliver Stone movie where it just, like, goes so outlandish with who it blames but for the crime. The gay mafia.
00:38:11
Speaker
like Like, I remember when i first watched JFK, right? and ah And like, I went up to people and I was like, I can't believe this movie. This movie pegs the JFK assassination on gay people.
00:38:23
Speaker
And they're like, what you mean? The gay fascist mafia. They didn't believe me when I told them that they watched the movie and they're like, you were right. Well, because it's like a hat on a hat because it is also correctly put because it's like I JFK is one that I do believe that the CIA is like, yeah, we did that. I mean, it makes it makes more sense than like one of the other theories like, it was the mob because Joe Maggio's girlfriend was Marilyn Monroe. And was like, mob ain't mob ain't killing a president. The CIA shit. Yeah.
00:38:57
Speaker
um But the the movie also, like that's what the whole Donald Sutherland, like they like awesome, so like 10 minute speeches about the military industrial complex and the motive behind it. So you don't need the like the gay mafia, gay senator mafia involved. You don't need Joe Pesci and Tommy Lee Jones. Putting on wigs, like Roman wigs and like gallivanting about with drugs and boys.
00:39:27
Speaker
it's It's just like really in poor taste and it's like everything else Oliver Stone just do. Well, because it's the source material because that that's that's the stuff Kevin, guy who Kevin Costner is playing like believes that. Sure. Like but that that's who he did it.
00:39:41
Speaker
You know, at that point I'd be like. leave that in the corner, do something else is the way I'd phrase it. It's Oliver Stone. you know I would, i would just cut it. Do we have to pay tribute to this? If we're even, if we're using this guy's story, we can just change it.
00:39:56
Speaker
Like, I don't know how you do that with real people's stories all the time. Yeah. Right. Like why, why does you have to do that? Like, yeah, this man's a hero. Right. We're getting far away from Operation Avalanche. We should keep talking about this because there's a lot to like about this. No, there's a lot there's a lot to like. And I don't think it's off. I think i think JFK is is a companion piece in some ways. But i agree that it's not doing that thing, you know, like intentionally. I'm more of a Nixon guy. I think Nixon's the best Oliver Stone, you know, president surrounded film. I think both of them are top notch. It's just, for me, it's the combination of performances you get in JFK. Like getting John Candy as like a Southern, like lawyer, fucking threatening Costner. i could do a good tap tap dance all over your mama's grave or something. See, here's... Praise the lady of your mama. John Candy is great in that scene and the way he's sweating sweating up a storm and his handkerchief. felt You know, like like he's great. But like in Nixon, you get consistent James Woods. Right. And like, I hate to say it, but like... Oh, he's great actor.
00:41:08
Speaker
Like, like when he, like, if you're promising me, like majority of your runtime, James Woods going to be on the screen and he's going to be delivering. I'm sorry, but like, I gotta go with James Woods, you know, like James Woods is a fantastic actor, especially back in that day, you know, like,
00:41:25
Speaker
he He was, i don't know, like he sucks. He's a bad person. Oh, i yeah, but i he's on, I mean, fucking casino. ah Fucking.
00:41:36
Speaker
Oh, man. how i Hades from fucking ah yeah Hercules. Have you seen that? like Yeah. Yeah, that that was my Disney musical, was was Hercules. that was That was my favorite. And I feel like Hades was a big part of it. um and then go Go deep on James Woods. like He's been in so many fantastic films, and he's been fantastic in so many of them. i also I also think Vampire's pretty underrated. John Carpenter's Vampires. like that that's like not He's good in it, but ah it's not a good movie, is the well phrased that. you know yeah There's stuff there.
00:42:12
Speaker
They should have kept the title from the book with it's vampires with a a dollar sign. It sounded like there was way more overt satirical stuff. Like i hearing about the book made me want to read it. I was like, oh, that makes sense that Carpenter would be drawn to that.
00:42:26
Speaker
and There's a little bit in it in terms of like them roasting the Catholic church and like their complicity and in the vampire uprising. But like, I feel like, though yeah, there definitely could have been, could have mined that more.
00:42:41
Speaker
There's only like one James Woods performance that I haven't seen yet, but I absolutely need to. um And that's his performance as Rudy Giuliani and on a TV movie series.
00:42:53
Speaker
And like, ah like there's just something about that, right? Like with everything we know about his horrid politics and like his performance stature as an actor, you know, but for him to do Rudy Giuliani performance, I just need to see that. Sounds good.
00:43:10
Speaker
you know, I just want to see his take on it, you know? Sounds good. Okay. Anyway, back to the operation. Yes. We're talking about everything, but operation avalanche, but this movie is good. And, and we're like all the stuff when it comes to them, capturing the stuff. Like, I really like how rough and tumble it is of like, you know, we're, we're matching this, the exact kind of sand. Like it's a lot of people on the phone, just kind of be like, okay, we got to get this thing and this thing. Like,
00:43:39
Speaker
The way they made this movie is pretty easy. It's just a lot of people in rooms talking and shouting at people on the phone, and we don't even hear the other people on the other side. It's like...
00:43:51
Speaker
it It feels because it doesn't quite fit into the subgenre ah of process porn because it's like like shaggier than that kind of the movie labeled that would be. But you are seeing every step of how they would if like if we're to follow up by in of like, OK, this is they're doing this. How would what are the steps like?
00:44:12
Speaker
How do you copy the terrain? What are the films? What's the feeling? How do you, ah you know, simulate the the gravity and the physics and all that and like getting the performance and just the scene of them trying to ah like ah backwards engineer one so ah one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind. Like that that's great of them just like spitballing. And like by that point,
00:44:38
Speaker
Bowles, their handler, feels like he's like part of, he's like a pal almost. that Like there is something kind of familial feeling about how they're, like it's just the nature of collaboration. You know, like when, if you're making a film, ah ah ideally in ah if if it's a good environment, and you start feeling close with your collaborators. collaborators There's a trust there.
00:45:00
Speaker
So that just makes like, What comes like, because of course we know they can't trust being their CIA handler. That's not their friend. ah And there's many indications to that of why he's not trustworthy. I mean, there's a whole thing of like we said, the mole doesn't matter. and The most important thing of the mole, i feel like is that it's just the first or one of many indicators of of how they're being manipulated because they're they're told that like, oh, yeah.
00:45:29
Speaker
The mole is this one, this one guy, we picked him up and then they recognize him going through the old footage of like, that was the guy, one of the guys on the phone when they were discussing that they can't, you know, make the launch in time. You're like, okay, so they're just like fucking using him as a patsy or something. And like, even knowing this, Matt's not really worried. Like, Owen is correctly like red flagging. Like, this is bad.
00:45:53
Speaker
If that, if they're killing him, then that's not good for us. Yeah. ah And Matt's still not even getting it. He's like, why would they why would they kill us? And I love the the beat of of Owen being like, do you know what a conspiracy theory is? he's like, yeah, I do. He's like, think we're in one.
00:46:12
Speaker
like it's it's It's like a hacky lie, but I like i just, it's kind of Pirates the Caribbean. Best believe in ghost stories. You're in boston yeah one. It's like you're right in the sense that it's kind of a hacky line, but it's also saying to the back seats, it's like, okay, we are exploring conspiracy theories on that deeper level. and And what I've been saying about urban legends this entire time, that conspiracy theories are a reflection of the time. Right. And, and, and what this movie is trying to say is that this government is trying to exert power.
00:46:45
Speaker
Right. Uh, This movie is about ah Matt's character exerting some kind of fictitious power, and his pursuit in doing so leads to grave outcomes.
00:46:59
Speaker
And to our knowledge, he gets away scot-free, but ultimately, he sacrificed everything to get to that point. It's a Pyrrhic victory, if you can even call it a victory, because it's like, yeah, the plan worked. But yeah, like you said, he loses everything. it kind of has a vibe of like, I like spy movies where there really is no resolution. Like I was thinking three days of the Condor where it's like you killed some more of a Munich.
00:47:26
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. Where it's like, even if you took out some of the people involved or eluded capture, you're really never going to be safe ever. Like it, cause there's the whole, like I alluded to, like when he calls the director and they kind of like are blackmailing each other back and forth. He's like, I have the tapes.
00:47:47
Speaker
And then, uh, the director's like offering him a job then. He's like, okay, well I can make you head of your own department. And yeah, uh, And it's like, obviously, don't take that. That's a trap. They'll kill you. But then there's also part of you like that could maybe be the smallest percentage chance that you do get out of it a lot. Because I'm like, they then they'll just keep looking for you. You know, like it's yeah it's not like they're just going to Ah, it's not cops in GTA where they're like you could heat down, you know, lower the start. He went a few blocks away. Fuck.
00:48:25
Speaker
We'll never catch him. Our little cone of radar on the map can't catch them. Yeah. Uh, the, There is a level of fantasy in terms of like how the CIA is tracking them and all that stuff. It's kind of whenever it's convenient for the plot.
00:48:40
Speaker
It's more driven by Matt and Owen's own rifts as people, where at them as characters, they're having their own issues. And that's what di takes the plot more so than any kind of ah government interference.
00:48:54
Speaker
but All the stuff with like, all this being true is when it's all on the table. And I think we kind of have to talk about it now. The whole bar chase is like, was it this smell well, let's talk about leading up to it because like, this is what when I say like, I'm locked into like, we're in a like spy action thriller now because he gets the call from Owen of like,
00:49:16
Speaker
okay, they've seen people watching them and recording them before. And he's like, oh, he gets the call from Owen of like, they're outside my house. And first he goes back to his ah his hotel. Yeah, Owen says, they're outside my house. Like, meet me at your motel. then he goes to motel. It's been ransacked. And then a car is outside. and then this fucking is such a good...
00:49:41
Speaker
ah like beat here where he like bashes through the wall in the motel so he can get into the neighboring. it's It's so good. And it felt like the way he stitches things together, i know we said like all the like real extras, like those things are like front loaded, but it did feel like that maid could be, I don't think, I think she was an actress, but like the fact that one percent the world, the world I was buying into it so much that I still the for a second think of like, is that a real maid? That that he just came out in on as he but burst through the wall. yeah But it's just a great scene because he first he takes a chair and you're like, he's not going to do the fucking chair with or the wall with that chair. And he just keeps bashing it. He's taking everything.
00:50:24
Speaker
I mean, because ah it's like one of those. What would you you're fucking your corner? There's no way out. a Fucking caged a caged animal. You're going to find some way to survive. Like you're going to throw my body into this wall. I don't care if it fucking breaks something. Yeah. This is something I've said before about like any director, you know, who is willing to put themselves on the line because like we've we've talked about before with Matt Johnson, like he has to be a master improver get these things to the positions they need to be to be dramatically compelling.
00:50:57
Speaker
And for a moment like this, this reminds me of like what we've discussed in the past about Splitsville, this idea of like these directors being like, okay, well, let's watch us get into a giant fist fight and it's going to be like massively concussive and we're going to put ourselves through practical fights to watch Matt Johnson just kind of hack through this wall, fake or not, you know, like, I'm like, yeah, you know, man, fuck. Yeah. You just did that shit. You know, like you just bang through that wall. You did that on camera You cut through it a bit, but like you still showed it mostly live on camera the way that we would want to watch it within this film.
00:51:35
Speaker
And then like we we go through this wall, we go through this wall, person's room, get into the car, and then there's like a massive chase. and And the one thing we should always, like before I hand it off to you to kind of summarize a bit more, like one thing I ought to say but is that like the um implicit rule with like a found footage thing is that everything needs to be done in a one take, right? That everything needs to be done in its own thing. And what I really love is that once the car is running, it seems like they did a lot of this within one sustained take or at least cut within multiple takes that they had done.
00:52:11
Speaker
And it just is incredible. Like, ah like, what did you think? Yeah. and I'm watching it again right now. This shit's so good. ah Yeah, because because they're they're like, you know, trying to get the fuck out of there and then they see a car coming. So they hop in the car and it's just, it's, It's a first-person bar chain. cameramen's in the back seat.
00:52:35
Speaker
We're watching to you know CIA spooks behind them. ah they start They pull out a gun and start firing on them. And it's like we're just swiveling back and forth. And it does feel continuous. There is something about seeing like...
00:52:50
Speaker
like ah an older car like that, swerving around with the camera going wild, it almost feels a little... and It's not the same context, but like in Evil Dead, you know, like when we're like following his old automobile. it bring up Evil Dead? Yep.
00:53:03
Speaker
Like it it does it does it does have that that that same vibe. And it's... It's thrilling and a magic trick to, i mean, that not just what they're able to pull off ah in terms of like the filmmaking and the action, but in terms of a narrative that I just buy that he survived an attempted CIA hit because this guy's been shown to be, you know, he's a Matt Johnson character. He's a kind of ah a buffoon. i mean, he's competent enough of a buffoon to...
00:53:32
Speaker
fake the moon landing, but yeah there there's there was nothing to suggest until this, until he burst through a wall. There was nothing to suggest that this guy had any like survival skills.
00:53:45
Speaker
Well, we get this like amazing chase sequence and let's talk about it a bit beat by beat because like you get the moment where they're driving along and they they seems like they're getting to someplace, but then like they're really close behind and we're getting like the shots from behind the like they're shooting in from behind of the car as Matt's driving. And from the camera's perspective, but they're in the passenger seat in the backseat.
00:54:08
Speaker
And as it keeps going, um what I find interesting is we get that moment where like the glove compartment has a revolver and Matt reaches for it and he's like fumbling for the bullets.
00:54:20
Speaker
And you're getting that as the camera's zooming in on ah them going in reverse as the CIA guys are coming forward at them and they're shooting directly into the... the car and it's like it's not just that you know we got this like moment where they're driving away this is like a fully choreographed action sequence that was done and considered and plotted out with the found footage in mind the entire time and it's really refreshing to get something that feels so planned out this this way especially when you've seen a million found footage films
00:55:01
Speaker
Well, especially since we so have pointed out like so much of the movie, even though the movie is about construction, things that are constructed and scripted out, there is a slapdash feel to so much of how the narrative unfolds initially. So that when we get into this section where there are like set pieces and like scripted beats, I mean, yeah, the movie's been scripted, but the fact that we can, you can see the,
00:55:27
Speaker
the the effort there of like putting in in the time to plan this, it makes it stand out more in in a good way. And yeah, it's just, man, this so good, especially when the glass breaks from like the bullet impacts. I'm just like, it looks like they're really getting shot at. you this is like This is real. This is really happened. It's just a testament to how good they are as filmmakers. I think that like this is just um one of those things that you plan out and you're like, everything else is just like, we're talking on phones, we're on sound stages, we faked some stuff at the beginning of the film, and we did some travel stuff. like All that stuff is pretty reasonable to make a movie, right? This is the only thing that needs to be like a wow factor in terms of like how did they do this? And it really felt like...
00:56:14
Speaker
All of the marbles were put into this section of... Yeah. This, like, what what is this? Like, a action sequence? Like, it's it's very indulgent, but it it never at any point feels that way.
00:56:28
Speaker
The bar part itself is only, like... pull minutes like it feels like it's longer in a good way but then if we start from like when he's like at at the motel getting ambushed then yeah it's like a few it's it's like less than 10 minutes and then like really it's not that long but I'm but i'm saying like so longer and i'm yeah like in terms of like payoff and the intensity of it because let's see it's already at positive then I see that as a positive. That feels a bit longer. The motel and the car chase is only like a few minutes. That's crazy. That's crazy to me. That's crazy to me. It feels a lot longer than that.
00:57:11
Speaker
Well, and the fact that we get such, like, ah cool and and and I guess triumph, you know, they successfully escaped, so it is a bit of ah a momentary triumph, but that that that's immediately undercut of, like, him going to Owen's house.
00:57:25
Speaker
And it's like, i've we've seen enough movies like this. We know it's not going to be good, but the there's something to the simplicity of it, of him, like, lifting the garage door, and he's hanging there. And then the Smashing Pumpkin starts playing.
00:57:45
Speaker
believe me <unk> and and and may i mean we've we've said in in our nirvana episode you we're like yeah jay's the better actor but matt's really good here in terms of like because it's all it's all silent in his reaction like he just lowers the the door back down and he hides because the car is coming but then it's owen's you know wife and the baby. And you can tell just from his body language, his back is to the camera. So we're not even seeing his face, but you can see just how he's standing at the front door. You're like, he wants to tell, he wants to tell the wife or like say something to her or something, but he can't because it's like, right. What would you say? And then that also, it looks really fucking bad. Like, you'd be like, it wasn't me, but your husband's dead in the garage. Like, yeah, i don't know. Yeah, there's just's no way you can deliver that information.
00:58:39
Speaker
But then there's also like... like just kind of get metatextual in a sense. Like I feel like this movie is a lot more about like Matt as a performer, you know, like what his strengths are.
00:58:51
Speaker
Like, and and I feel like there is a sense of egotism in the sense of like in the other films, it was so much about like, uh, the ensemble. It's about how everybody contributes, right? And I'm not saying that that leads to Operation Avalanche being lesser, but it's just like, it kind of, at this point, it's like we are so invested on not only how this whole film is constructed through Matt Johnson's understanding of how to make these kinds of things, but then also like in his own performance level, is he able to pull all of this off and
00:59:25
Speaker
he does do that, but then it's also like a large ask of all of this stuff. And it's like the parts where it does sag a little bit, it does note, it sticks out a bit more. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause it's, I, I think we both in agreement. He's good in this, like in terms of, uh, as a performance, but there are moments where I'm missing it. Maybe some of it's just like coming off the high of the dirties where I'm like, ah, use more Owen. Um, But I also do think that it would benefit the film. i I mean, it's like, yeah, you only have so much ah runtime for for certain things. But it for for that moment still lands finding him in the garage. But I'm like, we had spent like a little more time because he's he's almost like kind of exited at the film already at that point of how distant he's made himself. Like he won't even help with the cleanup of of the set. or anything Oh, that's another, like, one of the great visuals in this is, like, we're hearing the the JFK, like, we must go to the moon moon, not because it is easy or because it is hard. And while he's, like, burning the set and, like like, just the image of the, like, rover on fire, who like, looks like hell.
01:00:38
Speaker
Like, it's incredible. it's It's so nihilistic and like this this movie is so, it's playing off of this whole like faux patriotism. And a again, it's made by a Canadian, right? That's the funniest part. And it's not like he's like trying to do an American, you can hear the Canadian come out in his voice. It's ah it's not like he's being like, i'm I am American man.
01:01:04
Speaker
he's just playing himself. right Yeah. And I feel like like the Canadian accent is not too far off from like, parts of America, let's say. right Yeah, like Minnesota. we got people. Wisconsin. Yeah. All of them, right?
01:01:19
Speaker
um but for Places where it's cold. Yeah. yeah worst snows Where snow
01:01:27
Speaker
But this this is really a situation where, like, Matt is the glue that's holding all of this stuff together more so than even in the dirties, and he's a much more sobering force, and and certainly in large part because of the whole intrigue aspect.
01:01:46
Speaker
And... Like, I more prefer when it feels more juvenile. Like, I like the moments where it's like you get the peephole and you see Stanley Kubrick stitched in with Matt Johnson.
01:01:59
Speaker
Yeah, I love that. Like, that's one of those things that, like, you can't always get away with as a filmmaker. But, like, the way it's done here, just... Like I said, I could have used i could have used more Forrest Gumping. Like, find other, like, historical footage to, like, just have fun with.
01:02:16
Speaker
ah As long as this is handled better than that one scene in the control room, then I'm okay with it. Because that control room scene was a little too jarring for my liking, especially the proportions. It just didn't work.
01:02:28
Speaker
Well, in a way that all I was like, is this intentionally jarring? Because it did feel like i'm like, on a technical level, I'm like, you can do better, right? And I think they can. So there almost was, it did almost feel like that.
01:02:44
Speaker
us seeing the artifice because it is it's way more noticeable there than what Kubrick thing is blended pretty well like I would say like to the point where I was like starting to think of like oh they just cast the Kubrick look like oh it's good casting and was like no they just put it forrest gump yeah they forrest gumped it Yeah, they just did the simple green screen thing. And and and like I agree with you where it's like, it feels like they could have done it better. It feels like they, it almost like with ah everything else that they had shown us that they would have had that in their repertoire.
01:03:17
Speaker
But for whatever reason, they just lost sight of that. it's It's a little bit of a shame because like you see it right there. and It's just not as refined as something that you'd find in the dirties where but that feels like I'm making my first movie. I need to make a statement.
01:03:33
Speaker
Operation Avalanche is a little more shaggy, as you said before. And that doesn't make it worse. It just means that it's not as focused. It's not as focused, but it's still ah to a different degree is inspiring like the dirties because i think it shows that Like, yeah, this movie had a bigger budget than the Dirties, but this is still, like, a low... This is still, you know, very DIY, you know, independent, low-budget filmmaking. And it's it's it's, like, the limit is kind of your imagination. You know, like, you can do so much. Even you can do a period.
01:04:11
Speaker
You know, things we're normally told are, like, prohibitively expensive. You know, it's, like... ah No, if you if you have the resources and the willpower, you can you can actually make a lot of different things because it doesn't it it's small in that it's contained. It's like really just a handful of characters.
01:04:32
Speaker
But the scope of what we're covering, it does feel vast. Like you feel the vastness of the conspiracy. Exactly. Of like, yeah, this reaches goes straight up to damn White House. It's the situation because it like the idea of like them doing it the way that they do, right? Like it's it's more of like a this is how we can make a a movie on the cheap and you can too kind of thing where all the stuff at the beginning it's like a a visual effects trick, right? Then it's a bunch of just people sitting in rooms talking.
01:05:03
Speaker
You've got that great action sequence at the end and you've got a bunch more digital composite. You got a score by Jay McCarroll. What else do you need? That's the movement Thank you. It's a movie, right? Like, there's not much else you need to do. And and really, it comes down to the know-how.
01:05:19
Speaker
and and and that's what makes Matt Johnson a special filmmaker, is that he is able to kind of put all of this stuff into a gumbo, let it sit for a bit and stir occasionally, and you get something that's really special. Like, it's it's not something that every filmmaker... Like, if this is his weakest, and I'm saying that, like, gently, like, I'm not, like, you know, like, throwing shade at, ah because I really, really like this this film.
01:05:42
Speaker
That's pretty fucking impressive. You know, like this is this is right better than some people's best movie. Like if we're talking about this from the perspective of found footage films, right? Like think about me. There's a lot of them. but we We're right. Right. Obviously. But then like think about like how many found footage films that are like, you know, worse than this.
01:06:05
Speaker
come out are lauded as that film alone. Right. And then like we never hear anything from those filmmakers again. Right. The fact that we get this kind of thing from this filmmaker multiple times over already respect worthy.
01:06:21
Speaker
The same guy who's going on to do the magic gathering movie. Have we talked about it? We talked about the Anthony Bourdain thing, but he's also. So we haven't talked about about magic. Have you ever played magic?
01:06:32
Speaker
Okay. a few So my experience with trading card games is i would play the video game version of the Pokemon trading card game a lot. I had physical cards, but I never would like like actually sit down and play with those.
01:06:47
Speaker
And then later, like kind of around college time, I had friends who were in the Magic. One of them, a roommate, even got me like a debt starter deck for like as ah as a sure present. And it was cool. And I liked playing it. But I then just reverted back to a digital. was like, yeah, but the the Magic game on my phone, I don't have to buy decks. It's free. Because I didn't want to like fucking... It's like homework then. I have to like start buying cards and stuff. and Of course. Yeah. Like, nah, man. yeah ill I'll pay for a game one time and that's all you get. And I've got all the cards I could ever want, right? Like, why would I ever want to have to go through the bullshit of buying all the cards individually and, you know, building the deck from starters? But yeah, I'm the same way where it's like I i have the personal connection of like getting my own deck from friends and then going from there.
01:07:39
Speaker
But it was mainly through friends. Like, it's not like I would have ever gotten into Magic the Gathering personally on my own. But I did enjoy doing it. and Yeah, it's fun. Like, I like the strategy behind it. and it's And since I've, like, kind of faded away from it, just from...
01:07:55
Speaker
You know, like I've alluded to, ah I you know do some flipping on eBay. It's mostly just like games and and stuff. But I occasionally like like just do little research on like, oh, are there like card stuff that's like valuable that I can get hold of? But like that's its whole like within magic, you they have like Fortnite level tie ins. Like there's everything. There's like Marvel magic. There's Final Fantasy and each individual Final Fantasy. Like they have Final Fantasy 10, Final Fantasy 7. And, you know, it's like all these different licensed things where i was like, oh, I thought you guys like had your own lore and universe. Why are you bringing in? I mean, because money, you know, like that's why. But
01:08:37
Speaker
Yeah, and like all the decks are so easy to like mold to each different play style that it just makes sense after a certain period of time. So I get it. How are they going to make a Magic the Gathering movie? Is it going to be like a Blackberry thing where it's about the the business behind it? Sure, cool. I'd be interested in seeing that. It would be like a fictional thing, kind of like a Dungeons and Dragons.
01:08:59
Speaker
Stupid, sure. But Matt Johnson, strong filmmaker, maybe I'll watch it. You know what mean? Or you do, because like the Dungeons and Dragons movie, which is fun, it doesn't do the thing that it could have easily done where it shows zooms out and shows like like kids playing it or something. Even though the the movie is written in a way where it does feel like there's like haphazard naming of NPCs like, oh, Jarnathan. It does feel like ah a DM like pulling some shit out of his ass to like, don't know, fucking Jarnathan. Jarnathan's... We love Jardethan. Justice for Jardethan.
01:09:38
Speaker
But ah so i i'm I'm wondering, like, you do you do that? Is there a meta narrative of people play actually playing? man i don't know what it is like. That's the interest. And because it's Matt Johnson, I'm excited. And also just the unknowingness of like, what is the Yeah, and like that would be ultimately what gets me excited about that, right? For Operation Avalanche, the take is obvious, and then once you get deeper into it it's like, I'm glad I got the thing that I got.
01:10:10
Speaker
And ultimately, it's a strong sophomore film. like you know it doesn't If you've been following what he's been doing up until this point, I don't feel like you're disappointed or you're let down in any way, but you're just kind of teed up for whatever he does next, you know what i mean?
01:10:27
Speaker
Okay, there's a quote here that says, Magic the Gathering. This is real. This is not me doing a Max max Landis joke. He says, Magic the Gathering is my Star Wars. Now, i don't is he saying, in that context, is he is he saying that it's important to me in the way that like Star Wars was the this formative thing for like you know my childhood? Or is he saying that this movie is good because... Is this Star Wars? Yeah, ah which I don't... yeah i don't ah he he could He could just be doing... Because i'm yeah someone is first in online culture. He would know the Matt Landis tweet. like He definitely is is is aware of that.
01:11:08
Speaker
ah So that he could be doing a bit. But he could be talking about of like that he is going to just earnestly create a fantasy world, which would be... it could can Because Dungeons and Dragons is is the the goofy action comedy version of it. So, like, if we were just like, no, we're going to... This is Lord of the Rings, but with magic gathering.
01:11:32
Speaker
I don't know. Like, all the power to him, I feel like he'll have the right take on it, right? But, like... We'll just have to wait and see what his take is. I'm more excited for the Bourdain thing. don't want put the cart before the horse. I think that he's going to nail that. and then we're just going to have to see what happens there, you know? Well, and that I can like, picture sure. Well, especially because there's more like, we know who's playing. the case. And as like, okay, I can, I can wrap my mind around what that is. It's, it's, ah yeah, it's really just the question mark of, of magic from like, huh.
01:12:06
Speaker
Yeah. ah But Operation Avalanche? ah Thumbs up. but Thumbs up. Like, even if it's not two thumbs all the way up, like my other Matt Johnson excursions, like, I still really enjoy it Like, I would i would recommend this the people who are...
01:12:22
Speaker
just into filmmaking and who are into the films of mad johnson like like ah my mom walks walked by while i was watching it and and i feel like anything that's like even closely well she likes spy stuff but then she also is like really like a space nerd so like like combining those things i mean she was like a little bit like going like ah that's bullshit. But like, they're like twisting effects. So like when they were talking about the Soviet space program, like, phooey, that's baloney. But she was still sucked in, you know, like like, even though you know, like the things you know that aren't like lining up with reality, you're like,
01:13:00
Speaker
It's a damn good story. It's a good fiction, right? And and that's all it needs to be. And and it doesn't need to have all of the pieces played out the exact same way that it needs to be, like to be fully convincing as something that was made in the era or rooted in the history of that era. But it's all about the way that the story is told that makes it work.
01:13:20
Speaker
So, yeah, it's it's not one of the Matt Johnson's best films, but I think that it's integral to understanding what kind of filmmaker he is. Yeah. Right, because it does say something that, well, one, it would have been like more expensive to film on film or like I'm going to shoot this eight millimeter or whatever.
01:13:34
Speaker
But I think i think that is also a conscious. stylistic choice to not just like a budgetary logistical one of like, no, we can shoot it digitally and then make it look how we want it to look.
01:13:50
Speaker
Because like, I feel like that is also part of the, like the buy-in ah and ask of us. Like, like you said of like, it doesn't make sense. Like the cameras would be so and the the noisy. Like it doesn't make sense.
01:14:05
Speaker
Yeah, like there's no way to secretly film the way that they do in this. But they should do this for more. fo Like just do a period piece. Just do a found footage movie in Prohibition era.
01:14:17
Speaker
There can't just know how you do it before cameras exist. Yeah. Have it all take place within Edison's like, you know, open top movie studio. Yeah. Why not? Right. Or someone steals it from like they find ah a prototype and even a smaller portable one. Like, ah, I got you. got you, Edison. and and we see like the footage that he takes as either running away from the studio. Yeah. rights so um But yeah, I feel like that's about all I have to say about Bration Avalanche.
01:14:51
Speaker
Yeah, covered it. ah So. Yeah.
01:14:57
Speaker
mean, do you have any plugs? No, not really.
Connection with Listeners
01:15:01
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, you guys know where to fucking find us. You know where to do it.
01:15:08
Speaker
another Madison. Lots other.
Ambition and Challenges
01:15:20
Speaker
We are going to go to the moon and do the other thing. Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
01:15:32
Speaker
We'll serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills. Because that challenge is one that we're willing to accept. One we are unwilling to postpone.
01:15:44
Speaker
And one we intend to win. And the other one.
Exploration Vision and Hope
01:15:51
Speaker
The great British Lord George Mallory was to die on Mount Everest. He was asked why did he want to climb it. Because it is there.
01:16:02
Speaker
Space is there. And we're going to climb it. And the moon and the planets are there. on And new hopes for knowledge and peace are there. And therefore, as we set sail...
01:16:14
Speaker
We ask God's blessing on the most hazardous and dangerous and greatest adventure on which man has ever embarked. Thank you.