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The Dirties (2013)
49 Plays14 days ago
It's Black History Month so you know that means it's time to cover...Matt Johnson films? Well okay maybe it's not the most timely subject in terms of the month, but in light of Nirvanna the Band the Show the Movie's release, Doug thought it was prudent to sit down with resident Canadian film expert, Tony, and see where this whole phenomenon even started.
They talk guerilla filmmaking, fair use and copyright law, why Kevin Smith didn't prop up more independent filmmakers like Matt, and a bunch of other random shit like the time Ben Mankiewicz randomly brought up incest porn on a talk show
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Transcript
Introduction and Tone Setting
00:00:00
Speaker
Oh, this is so sick. And the key is going to be making sure that everybody knows we're just there for the dirties. They know that we're just there to get the bad guys. And we can wear it we can wear shirts that are like, we're just here for the bad guys. We have a megaphone. It's like, everybody, everybody, don't worry.
00:00:14
Speaker
I know we look dangerous, and we are, but we're not here to kill anybody who didn't bully us. If you bullied us, holy shit, you should be scared because we are actually going to kill you. Actually, this is a wicked idea. We've got to write this stuff down.
00:00:42
Speaker
Better earlier than ever, right? Yeah, well yeah. Sucks to be everyone else who didn't hear all that great stuff where we solved every social issue ever.
Rediscovered Footage and AI in Cinema
00:00:51
Speaker
We actually found the missing footage from the Magnificent Ambersons, but then we heard that AI was recreating it and we were just like, you know what?
00:01:00
Speaker
Let handle it, you know? We're just discussing it amongst ourselves. Yeah, because I saw a Wizard of Oz with way more head space, and I'm like that's good. That's how i that's how it should have been.
00:01:11
Speaker
What was it about Dorothy's head that whole time? Nothing, but, like, I needed to know, because if I don't know, you know, they should... just have ah Honestly, i was just going to have Oz Perkins remake Wizard of Oz. He loves he loves all that empty, empty space. So let's let's just do that. He's a better ah candidate than anyone else I can think of off the top of my head. I think the only way I could imagine myself watching the sphere experience of the Wizard of Oz, I don't know even know what you would call it.
00:01:42
Speaker
um I would watch it if Ben Mankiewicz was sitting right next to me. Yeah. Just like apologizing profusely the entire time. Just be like, i'm so I'm sorry, man. I thought this was going to be a lot shorter. You know, like something like that, you know, like. and Undoing all the things.
00:01:58
Speaker
Undoing all the glazing that's been done to the Mankiewicz name. Like fit Fincher upped Mank stocks like greatly.
Critique of Modern Cinema
00:02:05
Speaker
And then he's just like flushing that all down the toilet.
00:02:08
Speaker
I mean, let's a years further let's go even further than that, right? so So, like, not only that, right, but, like, TCM is threatened to shut down, right? Like, the company that owns it, the Warner Brothers Discovery, ah they're like, yeah, we don't need TCM anymore. And then, like, all of the biggest filmmakers in America came out and were like, not only ah is this a bad idea, but we're going to, like, step in and help with programming. So, like, TCM has, like, all of the clout, all of the backing in the world, and then Manquist is like, well, what if we killed cinema? Do you...
00:02:40
Speaker
And the gracious move to would have been to just like not to just move on because which he has done. But like initially he was like shitting his pants. He was getting into a corn cob in the replies on on his Twitter
Celebrity Decisions and Public Opinion
00:02:54
Speaker
where he was trying to defend it as as not just like they handed me a giant check to do an ad for it, which is basically that' it was a glorified ad. You know, it's like just look, whatever. Just say you sold out. Yeah.
00:03:06
Speaker
Move on We respect you more. Yeah. You just owned up to it. You know, at least like, you know, Bill Burr was like, yeah, it took the money, you know. Yeah. But but with ah Ben Megowitz, right. You know, should he you should never be in a position as a celebrity, I should say. You should never be in his a position where like you, Doug, or I myself can easily dunk on them.
00:03:29
Speaker
You know, you find yourself like duking it out in the replies being like, no, I made the right decision with my entertainment. And you're like, no, you're wrong. And the fact if you've got the public, that's just literally like going back and not even in a disrespectful sense. Even by the way, there are people are very soft with ah Ben and he was. Because it's clear like we're fans of yeah what he's a part of, you know, like it it was coming from a place of like honest betrayal kind of for most people that I saw. of Like, dude, I thought you were on our side.
Film-themed Cruise Discussion
00:03:57
Speaker
i still want to go on the TCM classic cruise, right? I still want to spend a week on the ocean or I think it's only three days. I still want to spend all that time on the ocean with Ben himself watching black and white films on a boat.
00:04:12
Speaker
That sounds like a lot of fun. That sounds like something that I want to have in my rep. Probably catch some kind of old timey disease that you thought like we vaccinated out of existence. You're like, oh, the leprosy.
00:04:25
Speaker
I don't know. I got that. I'll just get gout from how much popcorn I'll eat. I won't even eat like anything else. It'll just be popcorn and that's it
00:04:35
Speaker
I was going to try to segue into a health thing. was like, no, wait, we're not doing the pit first. We're going
Podcast Introduction and Patreon Discussion
00:04:40
Speaker
to another. We can't spoil it. What are we doing? I don't know.
00:04:46
Speaker
No, it's going to be like, a so i'll I'll do it as is to uploads. I mean, I'm doing this as like one session, but yeah, well it's it'll be two episodes. I'm kidding. i was kidding on that. Yeah. Don't worry. Don't even worry.
00:05:00
Speaker
So anyway, this is Blank Shack with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin. i'm I'm David. Today we're discussing the films of Lin Ramsey.
00:05:14
Speaker
Yeah, here we are, guys. Thank you. I just wanted to thank you all for the Patreon. I'm really thankful for the donations. Yeah, suckers. Keep giving us money.
00:05:26
Speaker
dark don Cut it out. I'm trying to finish this. thing So anyways, if you want to continue subscribing to Blank Check, we actually changed the address. You're going to want to go over to Patreon slash theseguysgotjuice. That's my new Blank Check Patreon address. So just just to keep you guys in the loop, just to you know just so we're all on the same page. or I know my voice is a little different. you know Yeah, and you might be like, oh this hasn't been updated in a while. This looks like completely different kind of content than normally. Your feed. Yeah, don't worry about it. we It's a called expansion, aggressive expansion.
Matt Johnson's Work and Influence
00:06:02
Speaker
We're having trials. Yeah.
00:06:07
Speaker
No, but this is these guys got juiced and this is our first actual, I mean, we did record the top 12 of the year at the beginning of January, but this is like our first like actual episode of the year. So like we're, yeah does this this does feel like an occasion, start start starting the year off right, talking about so something very important and timely, you know, it's Black History Month. So, of course, we're talking about the films of Matt Johnson.
00:06:35
Speaker
ah Of course. and And what a time ever to do so, to celebrate the release of the Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Insert Spaceballs jokes here. But hey, like, just before we even get into this, right, like I've been following Matt Johnson since this movie, The Dirties. Like I am a huge fan of Matt Johnson, of what he's been doing, what he's been putting out. And ah to see that he's come back to like his oldest project in Nirvana, the band, the show, and found a way to like, you know, make it almost like the comedy event of February for a lot of people, right? I think that's really right. ah So to be able to go through his films, you know, talk about so like, especially the start, you know,
00:07:18
Speaker
I'm excited. It's especially exciting. Like, not just like, yeah, I have a different, I mean, obviously you're, you're closer to it. Cause you've been a fan since this and, and just being Canadian. There's like, you got, you got, I live in Toronto. I've been to him several times.
00:07:33
Speaker
there's this there's this there's like nationalism time with Canadian nationalism that's part of the Matt Johnson uh story but like no uh it's cool to see it catching on in a way because because I think we've talked about off mic how like kind of iffy the availability of it is here at least in the states of like trying to to watch it without you know just having a friend who can just give you like a google drive link or something but like um That it sounds like you don't really need any of that to like even enjoy the movie. Like it stands on. It's like, obviously there's more, you know there's, you know, the relationship of the characters and like references that you'll get more that if you know the show and like his other works, but like that you you can just use this as a clean entry. It sounds like the only thing you need to know is that they're trying to play the Rivoli, which is like the basis of every episode. So it just sounds like they're like, yeah yeah, they're just doing that at a lot much larger scale. And I can't wait to see it.
00:08:29
Speaker
You've seen the show, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. yeah i've seen I've seen the web series and and the the the show. Yeah. I set off mic that I kind of went back in a backwards way because I first saw The Kid Detective, which came out 2020. Great movie. a fucking awesome movie. And so the director of that is a longtime collaborator of Matt Johnson. Like he's worked on the show and but all the other stuff with him. So I saw that in his IMDb and I was like, oh, what's this Nirvana the Band, the show? And then I watched... but Before we move on, right? Before we move on, do you see who did the score for The Kid Detective? Oh, yeah, yeah. Jay McCarroll.
00:09:07
Speaker
Hell yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So I just wanted to point that out before we move on. Yeah, go ahead. No. Yeah. And the score for that movie rocks. up Yeah. So i saw saw I saw that in his IMDb, watched that, fell in love, and then went back and then watched the web series. So like I went in, you know, I did Tenet order, you know, like I i did a fucking... um The temporal pincer movement. Yeah.
00:09:30
Speaker
Did I get that right? I don't know. I'm not a big tenant guy. I'm not one of those, you know, I don't beat that drum. I initially i was just I was just happy that a movie that of any magnitude came out in 2020. I was just like, oh, yeah, that's fun. ah seems like kind of stupid even by Nolan's dad, which I love. The thing I like about Nolan is that, you know, like he dresses up in suits and he has a British accent. But he goes.
00:09:58
Speaker
bozo mode a lot in a way that I enjoy because, you know, he'll talk about things he likes. like, yeah, I love the Fast and Furious movies and stuff like that. You know, so like he's making, you know, like populous entertainment that even if they're like reaching at some like kind of headier like themes that like the movies themselves are not...
Hollywood Influences on Johnson
00:10:18
Speaker
They're very accessible, even if, you know, they're dealing with with larger things. And I'd like when he is dropping any – because, like, there are some – I kind of – even though I think Inception a great movie, I kind of bump against it in a way. Some of that is me bringing, like – the people's reactions to it and the people who overly like glaze it annoying me more than like, I don't think Nolan is like presenting it as like, this, this is like the deepest movie ever. It's more just like the people's reaction to it. of Like, Oh man, there's like dreams and dreams. So there's something that was so refreshing about tenant did like, and like in your face going like, yeah, this is nonsense. Like, don't worry about it. Like, this is like, it was an idea he had since he was young and you can tell, it almost sounds like a kid being like, yeah, what if car go backwards? Yeah. You know how cars go forward. Well, this movie presupposes that. What if they didn't?
00:11:11
Speaker
Sometimes the wheels go clockwise. Sometimes they go counterclockwise. You got watch out for those. um But the the thing with that movie is like I feel like it's a refutation of like the kind of – Yeah.
Kevin Smith's Influence on Johnson
00:11:42
Speaker
very in touch with like blockbuster filmmaking, especially in its roots. um Also, I wanted to jump in a bit on ah my introduction to Matt Johnson, because I would say it's maybe a bit different than most people. And it just, ah because like, obviously ah people know about Matt Johnson now, specifically people within like film circles. Right. um But yeah,
00:12:04
Speaker
God bless him. My introduction to Matt Johnson was through the production company who features his name at the start of the film, Kevin Smith. Kevin Smith produced The Dirties.
00:12:15
Speaker
Hell yeah. The reason I knew about The Dirties was because ah this was at a very interesting point in Kevin Smith's career. This was when he was doing Red State. This was when he was doing Tusk. And this might be like the only movie that he produced under this banner. Like it just seems like for whatever reason, he got really behind Matt Johnson for this project. And he was absolutely right to. And it's one of the reasons why I am okay with Kevin Smith. I wouldn't say like, you know, I think he's a God. I don't think that he's better than what he is. But I will say that as a person in that moment, he did exactly the right thing.
00:12:47
Speaker
It's like a Mel Brooks and David Lynch situation. Yeah, I mean, Kevin Smith to me is like he was such a formative part of like my kind of childhood and like like getting into and like independent films basically that that ah he kind of just gets a freebie. and And it's just the earnestness of it carries it so much. It's like you can make as many shit. Keep making Clerks sequels. I don't give a fuck. good Keep going to you get the Clerks 10. Yeah.
00:13:14
Speaker
even ah Even though, spoilers spoilers for three, one of the clerks dies, but, you know whatever, keep going. They're going to bring him back for sure. We all know that, like, in 10 years, he's going to be, like, smoking a joint or maybe at that point he's going to be eating an edible. And he's just going to be like, you know what?
00:13:30
Speaker
One more ride. Jason Mewes is going to be, like, at his house already. Just, like, yeah I don't know, playing Wii Fit. Just begins with with Dante crawling out of his grave. Like, his hand reaches out.
00:13:43
Speaker
That was good to me. I'm actually down for it. Hey, that anything is better than Clerks 3. Like, I mean, that that's his worst film for sure. i it I'm trying to think of a refugiation of that, even though like,
00:13:58
Speaker
It did get as dumb as that movie is. There was something about the force ghost Rosario Dawson, especially when Dante actually dies. And I don't know. There was something about like that them being in that movie movie theater. and then when he go leaves with her, I was like...
00:14:14
Speaker
Oh, well, hey, I'm actually more emotionally locked into this than thought I was. I thought this was just a stupid waste of time. And then he actually kind of got me at the end there. but Listen, I'm glad that because like Rosario Dawson, like is in that movie, right?
00:14:28
Speaker
I wish he wasn't dead throughout the rest of the movie. I wish that, you know, maybe. Why are you going to get her talking about character blowing George Washington Carver in heaven? Or there's some joke about the yeah someone famous that she blew in heaven. I think it's George Washington Carver. Again, Black History Month.
00:14:47
Speaker
We'll get into that with the dirties, by the way. but More relevant than I thought. I was joking initially, but then when i watched the movie, I was like, oh, actually. There was one scene in particular that I've seen nobody talk about, like, in in the recent history. And I saw that and I was like.
00:15:02
Speaker
Did just see what I think I just did? you know, we got to talk that. He was in character. Justin, in the treasure true tradition of Canadians getting in blackface, la our previous leader, and Justin Trudeau, Matt Johnson had a little bit an oopsie.
00:15:19
Speaker
ah he was He was just being true to his character. I mean, like, you know, we'll see as we go through his works. I mean, he played... Because I think you see interviews of of the actual person. He's very thoughtful about, like... Yes. And and there's a clear you reverence for just film and story storytelling. And, like, you it I think it's what makes... Because, like...
00:15:40
Speaker
All these movies and the show are so not beholden to pop culture, but there's so many, many references points to it. Like they're, they are, they do have their own story to tell, but they're also doing it through the lens of like, we're going to make lots of references to things that you recognize, but it's not an annoying way. Cause it just all, you know, is very sincere in terms of like, you can tell it's coming from a love of these things. Even when I've seen, seen, an interview after I watched the dirties of how he feels about some of the movies he referenced, he actually does not like Malcolm X. He was like, he's like, I want to, it was from like, I think it was like a criteria closet thing. He was like, it like, yeah, we, thought it'd be funny to make Malcolm X reference and put as many in there just because that movie's a piece of shit. I was like, wait, I want to, want to, I want elaborate on that, man. You're just wrong on that, Mr. Johnson. He's wrong. I mean, we'll, we'll get, we'll get to his,
00:16:34
Speaker
I guess you could call Blackberry a
Biopics and Corporate Origin Stories
00:16:36
Speaker
biopic. It's it's it's a new subgenre of biopic. Right. Like the corporate origin story thing. I i like going off of just that movie. Like it he does seem to have a more traditional view of like what those kind of movies should be. So the like the way that Spike will intentionally like break your immersion or the reality of the thing to like highlight something or just the structure. Because like there's, you know, biopics you can be like either like, OK, we're just going to focus on like like this one block of of time or the whole life. And they're like, OK, which one are we doing for Malcolm X? And Spike Lee was like, i bet you're like, yeah, was you're doing both. We're doing it all of it.
00:17:18
Speaker
Is it Moonstruck? it's bo oh yeah, yeah. think that guy That director was supposed to do it. I think it's, is it Norman Jewison? Am I wrong? I think that's correct. I might be wrong. Yeah, but anyways, Norman Jewison was supposed to direct the film and then Spike Lee like made it his point to do it. And in my eyes, right, like i I agree with what you're saying there because you're talking about like this like snapshot of a time versus the whole life thing. And I do think that like Malcolm X at least has some like barriers, right? It's kind of like early adulthood to death. um But from another perspective, I feel like he's, like Spike Lee was, was so influenced by like
00:17:53
Speaker
like, you know, 50s epics, 60s epics, rather than, like, the traditional biopic. And in his eyes, he's like, the fact that he gets to make a Malcolm X movie at all is, like, crazy, especially in the 90s, considering, like, you know, Malcolm X's views and how people even to this day have issues, you know, coming to terms with him, right? He's just like, I'm just going to do it, right? Just go big or go home. like like when ah Especially if you're him, you're like, I might never get an opportunity to do something this important and of this size again. So like... Exactly. If they're letting me do this, I'm fucking doing it.
00:18:25
Speaker
And the craziest part about Malcolm X, the film itself, is that it's relatively cheap. Like, if I'm not wrong, I think it's only like a $20 million dollars film. like Which is crazy because the scale of it is... Like we you were saying, it's like old Hollywood epic. Like in terms of like the amount of extras you see... And, and, and yeah, I, I rewatched it after watching this, after watching the dirty. So ah in your face, Matt Johnson, actually. Black History Month. But the. On the note of, um you know, the Malcolm X reference itself, um like I had seen Malcolm X by that point already. So when I watched the dirties, I'm just like the the joke itself of just the opening with Spike Lee in the hat. Right. Yeah. Another thing. That was a moment that to myself, I already found really like hilarious and funny. And I loved it, you know? So the fact that I like, like early on in my appreciation for film, I'd already seen this great movie and I appreciated it. And then I saw these young guys kind of doing that, right? We haven't even really cracked into what the story is. And I want to relate it to the Blackberry thing actually quickly. So ah the interesting thing about Matt Johnson specifically as a filmmaker is that technically speaking, ah all of his films are found footage films, right?
00:19:42
Speaker
All of his films technically occupy that space, not in so quite mockumentary, but within found footage where it's like integrated with it. The interesting thing with the Duries is that we never know who is recording the film, right? And it's kind of a cheat, but I feel ah something I read was that originally there was an answer for that and they literally edited it out of the film because they felt that the fly on the wall nature felt better and they wanted to keep the people who were filming the events anonymous. But when it came to... um ah Blackberry, just to tie that knot there, right? Blackberry is different where it's a traditional narrative. It's all about, you know, here are these traditional scenes, you know, we're watching it as a film where it's people just doing make pretend. A lot of Matt Johns' other films are about like being in the moment, ah you know, being able to capture something that almost feels like they shouldn't be able to get it
00:20:34
Speaker
you know, like without their permits or without anything. And to relate it back to that ah thing that you brought up at the very beginning, there's a strong love for not just film, but like popular culture in general. And in all of these ah projects outside of BlackBerry, where there are these more found footage films, ah this idea of like media consumption overload spilling out into the content of a character ah as reflected through like ah animated Matt Johnson. And it's persistent through all of the films, even Operation Avalanche. It's a situation where ah it's like a, he's commenting upon specific types of people while living within moments that ah may not feel
00:21:15
Speaker
so um constructed it like he's always playing with like the reality of situations and I think that that's where he's as most interesting as a filmmaker you know a Blackberry is really entertaining but when I watch like ah a Dirty's and Operation Avalanche Nirvana the man on the show there's there's a bit of ah an edge to that there's and he's doing he's pushing the medium a bit forward with some of the things that he's doing on these projects yeah Yeah, the thing with Blackberry is, uh, even though it like bucks that trend, he is still doing, there's shots in it that almost are like mockumentary-esque, like those kind of like shaky zooms and stuff like that. He's still trying to infuse that. And I think the reason that movie stands out just because it's just like really well made and well cast that, uh, And it was just there really hadn't been precedent post the social network for like, oh, because they it started of all these like kind of like, oh, let's do corporate origin story. I skipped over the Steve Jobs ah movie, which which is is great. But that's not even really a corporate origin story. That's just like, let's just focus on this guy during this time. It's a great Danny Boyle movie is the way. Right.
00:22:22
Speaker
Yeah. But like, other than that, no one had really like cracked what that, you know like what this new sub genre or evolving sub genre like was or how to do it correctly post the social network. Like people were definitely trying cause they're like, oh yeah, let's people want more of that. And then it's like, no, we we want good movies. So like, if you don't have ah and or or an interesting story that feels timely to tell, which then BlackBerry did, uh, it did, uh,
00:22:50
Speaker
all that. So yeah, I, but I agree with like his other stuff has that edge where it's like, how is this even legal? How did they do this? And like, there is like, even going into this movie, ah you know, i knew the basic premise of it, but there was already like lore surrounding it. Like, I feel like any like infamous, like indie production, like the, you know, there starts to be myth making around it, even if it is still based in fact, kind of like I was after, I i mean, i I'll just say right up top, like, I love this movie. ah This is like maybe like, yeah,
00:23:25
Speaker
maybe one of my favorite like indie do-it-yourself production success stories like outside of like the original Evil Dead, where it's just like, yeah, we have no money, we just have a story, an idea, some creativity, and we're going to fucking do it. We're just going to go for it. In the case of Evil Dead, it's like, yeah, we're just going to go to the woods and we have some ideas for DIY effects that we can do with with no money. This is like...
00:23:54
Speaker
So like if you're not familiar with Nirvana, the band, the show or Matt Johnson's whole stick that like a lot of his projects are, it blends like the scripted and non scripted elements. And like on paper, you like, okay, so like kind of like ah Borat or like, you know, he's ah on the streets with real people. And it's like, kind of, but not really. Cause like ah that, that's more of like a that That is like just more like a man on the street. Like, let's let's just get like reactions from people to this goofy character. The Matt Johnson stuff is like, no, there is a story that they are there to tell. And they are just trying to interweave more natural feeling parts to it by just using actual people, like using real people as extras in in their story
Making of 'The Dirties'
00:24:42
Speaker
that they're telling. So the story is about two student filmmakers in high school who are you know making ah a movie for a project so they actually you know were there's there's real students in this like the the just and matt johnson and the co-star owen uh what's what's his uh full name owen because he's really good i'm not sure me look at it
00:25:06
Speaker
I've got the... like yeah So it's Owen owen Williams. he I ah didn't really know anything about him other than I knew there was a co-lead in this that wasn't Jay. So I was like, hmm, this guy's guy has got some big shoes to fill because that dynamic's so good Nirvana, the band, the show. But...
00:25:23
Speaker
they both enrolled in high school, you know, like in this, in the school that they shot it in. And so there were ah real students in this that just think that they're new kids filming as a project. And yes, there's very scripted parts. Like we'll get to where the story goes. Like you have to script. You can't just like do an improv, like what the finale of the movie is just for like safety and production. for you Like you would you would they He would be in jail if he didn't like script and you know take all every precaution with that. But the behind – we'll get to that. The behind the scenes for him how they shot some of that stuff was pretty crazy. um But, yeah i um' i yeah, I'm already a fan. I'm going in already a fan and kind of knowing –
00:26:07
Speaker
what his deal is. So I was kind of trying at moments, trying to put myself in the mindset of like, if I was like you and just heard of this because I like Kevin Smith, I almost said Kevin James. was doing As a Kevin James fan, I just went into, no, but I'd be like, Oh, this movie Kevin Smith produced, uh, don't really know much about this. Like,
00:26:25
Speaker
would I buy for any moment that Matt is a, is a high schooler? i think, Oh, I did. i think I would because even he, like he has, he's always had like a boyish, you know, i'm and I'm saying this as, you know, this is an audio medium.
00:26:41
Speaker
I've been guilty of being, I just turned 35, but I've been a perpetual baby face for, you know, like even, even with facial hair, people be like, yeah, you look young as fuck. So here, unfortunately, in many cases, I get ID for video games sometimes. Yeah.
00:26:56
Speaker
Maybe we should enroll in a high school. Not even for a movie. Let's just just just do it. Let's just make the dirties again. You know, just shot for shot remake. As an homage.
00:27:08
Speaker
ah Yeah, but... I buy it, if not just visually, but because of he has the demeanor and he has like his character, his character you know, he's playing like a dumber version of himself in Nirvana, the band, the show.
00:27:24
Speaker
ah But he's always, you know, he's like a character who has like basically like a teenager's sense of humor. wears a fedora. He wears a fedora, right?
00:27:34
Speaker
He wears a fedora. takes himself too seriously. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's his character on Irvine the Band show. But but so it doesn't it's kind of seems like a lateral move for him to play an actual teenager because I'm like, yeah, that like this is very in line with like his persona that he already embodies and and other things. And I totally buy that ah other people would see someone acting like this, dressed like this in a hallway and be like, yeah, that's another student. Like that guy's weird, but that's just another student.
00:28:01
Speaker
Yeah. to To extrapolate further, right, because we've talked about this idea of like Matt Johnson imbuing his own, ah you know, love for pop culture and cinema specifically into all of the projects he does. I think what makes this film work the best, what makes this thing actually feel authentic, especially in Matt Johnson's character, is how they're kind of like showing how ah there's this kind of like excitedness that comes from, ah you know, an early love for any kind of art form. And in somebody like Matt Johnson's case, like he sees art as something that he wants to like pull from into his own life rather than truly emulate. That's why like the films that they're making early on separate from what's going to happen later on are just like quotes from other movies, right? To him, it's not about the expression of cinema. and Sorry, the expression of yourself through cinema. It's about expression of cinema. Right. right like Which is usually like a for a beginner filmmaker thing. like like Exactly. That's that's where where do you start other than emulation? like
00:29:04
Speaker
ah When I was young, my friend, like like like third, fourth grade, like watching watching action movies that I was too young to, like, but like you know, Robin Rodriguez stuff, like ah Desperado. Me and my friends would just recreate scenes. Like we're third graders recreating scenes from an R-rated Rodriguez movie. But yeah. You know, that's what you do. Like if you're like interested, like because you you're like you're just excited about like you want to participate in it. So you're like, OK, I guess we'll just redo the scene.
00:29:34
Speaker
but But you made it a very important detail ah drop there. Right. Which was like what? Third, fourth grade that you did this. Right. It's very clear that what Matt Johnson and Owen Williams are doing at the beginning of this film, it's it's even done literally. Right. You've got a group of kids who are making like some cheesy horror film at the same time that they're shooting the dirties. Right.
00:29:54
Speaker
I don't know. Cheesy. That kid's project sound cool. The more he kept going, it's like when I love hearing a an excited kid describe something because it's just a series of and then and then run on because he kept talking. He's like, yeah, they're like, there's like a monster on the loose. But then there's like, a you know, government agency. And then the thing of like forgetting details that are important, you're like, oh, right. And then because there's also these cops are looking for things. And the thing with with the that story that the kid is telling, right? Like you can follow what's happening, right? And then when you watch what Matt Johnson and Owen do, right? It's almost incomprehensible, right? It's just like in in Matt's eyes, because Matt is supposed to be the director in this film, right? ah he's trying to, you know, just pour out this idea that's so clear to him of like, oh, it's the good guys and they get the bad guys and the bad guys, they do drugs. And that's why they're bad guys, you know? And then there's like, you know, bureaucrats who get in the way of the good guys who get to the bad guys, you know, like that's the way he thinks as in that young age. And the the thing is, is that we, um,
00:30:58
Speaker
You know, like, obviously, there are ways in which those ah behaviors can be, you know, just people in a young age being overly excited. But I think that what makes this, sets this film apart, and we haven't really even really delved into this too much.
00:31:10
Speaker
Look, Sandy Hook happened the year before this movie came out, right? Yeah. And this film decides to lead to a more violent conclusion. i won't even get into it just now. And I think that what's interesting is that similar to something like Spree or... I was i was thinking about that because like we we... I still do want to do an episode talk. We were going to do like Spree and Super while watching this movie. And as we like barreled towards that dark conclusion, i was like, is this maybe one of my favorite modern taxi driver riffs? Because it's like it it
00:31:43
Speaker
It understands it like that is the modern Travis Bickle archetype is like the disaffected loner that, you know, wants to enact some like hero fantasy is that it's going to be someone who's like an isolated, like really young person, maybe bullied. And it's, ah yeah And the blurring of, you know, reality and fiction. I mean, like that's just speaking to like a larger culture thing. Like not everybody who has this like, you know, I think you said like an over overt consumption of of pop culture. Like we don't all turn into like shooters because of it. But like that's going to inform what your conception of like what that fantasy is.
00:32:27
Speaker
I think to go a different direction a bit there is like there's the, it's not about like watching the right thing or the wrong thing, right? It's the ability to process fiction as reality. And there's certainly a lot to be said about that as we go through the film and what Matt and Owen capture and what ah Matt chooses to look over. Right. But when it comes to ah this, uh,
00:32:50
Speaker
you know, so this whole like thing that we're barreling towards, I guess you you called ah Spree kind of like a taxi driver. Right. and And in my eyes, I see this as like elephant for millennials.
Themes in 'The Dirties'
00:33:03
Speaker
Right. This is like a situation where Columbine is happening in modern times. And there's like a post ironic detachment from it where it's like, there's no way we're actually going to do this. Right. The entire time. And you're with it because you believe that at some point, like, you know, a cooler head will prevail or that somebody will truly step in and provide some kind of support. But that never really does come. And the isolation that's necessary for this kind of resentment to build into this kind of thing, it's provided through the film itself. And before we move on too far, right, I will say that I found this film quite effective personally since like this film was shot in Peterborough, which is like maybe like 30, 40 minutes for me.
00:33:49
Speaker
Right. So like the the the environment of this film is very similar to my own high school. The way that the, you know, stairwells go up to the different, you know, hallways, the grassy knolls that are kind of like little hills that are right by the school. It's very, very familiar territory for myself.
00:34:07
Speaker
um And to see that, you know, in the perspective of this, ah you know, violent story, especially at this time, you know, like before, like Sandy Hook had just happened and, you know, mass casualty events in America ah specifically, you know, they weren't like,
00:34:23
Speaker
rare They still happened. Right. But in school specifically, I feel like Sandy Hook was when they really started to accelerate. Wouldn't you agree? yeah because there had been ones before, like obviously Columbine and stuff, but that was kind of like felt like, yeah. there's no limits anymore because like because like it felt like the times there were school shootings were like almost like exceptions of like, yeah, that's really fucked up that that happened, but that's not going to... No way we'll let this become normalized, he just but right i think and the combination of it being like like actual... Like any mass casualty event is like a great tragedy, but the fact that it was like like young children were the victims and that...
00:35:06
Speaker
we kind of did nothing about it it was like, it was like, oh, okay. So we're just, we're fine with this now. It was, it was the start of a new era. And and also we should point to the specific dynamics within Matt and Owen, right? I don't want to like to, to paint too broad of a brush or jump ahead too many jump but spaces. Right. But what I will say that I found interesting about the connection between Owen and Matt is like,
00:35:31
Speaker
You know, that's a very real experience, you know, like maybe sometimes you're friends with ah somebody who gets picked on like a lot, you know, and you understand why people pick on them a bit. But like at the same time, you see something in them that's truly brilliant. Right.
00:35:45
Speaker
But then like sometimes the more and more you hang out with them, the more you realize that, you know, like maybe there are parts of themselves that they can't fix or that you can't be there to fix. Right. Right. and that they need to take that journey upon themselves.
00:35:58
Speaker
And I think that this show, ah sorry, this movie does such a great job in terms of showing like the growing apart of friends. Let's imagine you remove this school shooting aspect from the film, right? Imagine just like Owen and Matt going two different ways in their lives. That's a very normal thing that happens in high school, especially the way that it's depicted in this film. It's the fact that it goes that extra step.
00:36:20
Speaker
And it's because of this alienations on the and end of Matt Johnson's character ah that feels really true to life in many ways. it It doesn't feel like it's unnatural. And it actually feels only more eerie in, you know, 13 years out. Like it actually feels more relevant now than it did back in 2013.
00:36:39
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm probably going to keep saying this at throughout this this ah discussion, but I think his performance is legitimately great. Like, I've always thought he's very funny. For sure. And entertaining presence, like, you know, the big part of why Nirvana the Band, the show, works. But, like, the the movie starts off where it's like, yeah, these kids are referencing movies they like. And, you know, he's very funny in some parts, like ah ah things that remind me of either – myself younger or people I hung out with. But then, you know, as you continue along and you see that, like you alluded to, like that darkness that can't be fixed.
00:37:17
Speaker
ah He, he plays, it feels, it feels real. You know, like I already invoked taxi driver. This is almost like if, ah you know, like when that movie starts, we don't know how long this has been happening to Travis. He makes some allusion to that. He hasn't slept for like a few days or like, it's been a while since he slept. So you're like, Oh fuck. So, This has been going on for a while, but ah he has at least...
00:37:39
Speaker
like there's other taxi drivers who know him who seem to have some kind of concern. Cause like there's a scene with Peter Boyle, which is a pretty heartbreaking word. It's like, he understood, he can like see that something's going on with Travis, but he doesn't possess the words or ability. Or like you said, like you you, sometimes you can't, even if you have the right words, like there's no, nothing you can even do sometimes to like say the right thing to, to help someone. And, and,
00:38:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's almost like if that relationship was the whole movie, like if it was like we're just going to focus on like start with them really tight. And then you see is like the Peter Boyle character or Owen is like, yeah, he reaches the point of like, I don't know that I can continue this because like you said, like we're all waiting for some kind of out as it goes along of like they're not actually going to do that, which is Owen's kind of demeanor because it's like this is his best friend. He doesn't want to believe that about his best friend and it and it does initially feel like that they're just kind of venting you know like sometimes when you yeah especially when you're young you say fucked up shit you know like as as a joke but and you keep going and it's like okay he is not joking and it becomes harder and harder to ignore for oh and and there's not there's just like you reach a point like i don't you can't do anything like what can you do
00:38:59
Speaker
And that's the movie's not presenting any solutions to this. It's just, you know, depicting a very, I feel like real betrayal of i portrayal of of of this, of like, it's it's it's very dark, rough stuff, but it's like, it it it feels real. And yeah, like...
00:39:19
Speaker
i I don't know where I was going because, like yeah, I don't know that there is a so there's a solution broader in terms societally how we can maybe curb the, you know, lessen some of these things. But in terms of like on an individual level, because like it's not like we'd be like, OK, we government mandate assign some friends to bully kids or something to prevent them from turning into school shooters like that. That's not going to fix the problem.
00:39:46
Speaker
No, no. Hey, look, I can't think of anything that's more like violence incitement worthy than assigned friends. Right. if If that doesn't build resentment, I don't know what is. I mean, that's what fraternities are, right? You pay to like have a friend. and I detest them.
00:40:02
Speaker
i tested you know That's an idea that I just cannot get behind. You know, like good kudos to the people who enjoy it. Right. But but we all all one thing I want to say about this film. Right. And I don't know if this is absurd to say, but I think it um I feel like this is a romance film. This is a film that's a one sided romance film. And I definitely feel as though Matt Johnson's character has not just a you know, friendship feelings, I feel as though they're also romantic feelings as well. And he's kind of like coming to terms with those in those moments. And the way that this film ends ah also really leans into that in a dark way. We'll get there when we get there. um and No, i don't I don't think that's crazy at all because like comedically, that kind of vibe also ah exists between the Matt Johnson character, Nirvana, the band, the show, and Jay, like that kind of vibe of like... oh, is this deeper than just like the best, best friends? And this like twist that in a dark direction. ah
00:41:00
Speaker
And yeah, I totally think that's there. They even acknowledge, like we'll get to that, you know, the scene when they have like their big blow up towards the end. But like, oh, it doesn't say those words, but he's saying like, oh, you're jealous, you know, because he like has a girl that he's talking to and stuff. So it's like, yeah, I think that's 100 percent there.
00:41:17
Speaker
And there's also the added element of like ah there's the way that people have talked about the Columbine situation. um There have been many, ah you know, interpretations, I guess, of ah the people who are involved with that having romantic feelings for themselves as well, for each other as well.
00:41:32
Speaker
So there is at least that, you know, root and truth. um And I do think that also it's important to make that distinction because like, when When we see Owen at the beginning of the film, like he he just seems like a normal teenager. He just seems like, you know, a guy who's hanging out with a friend. Right. But as he goes along, you're like, yeah, this guy's like charming. He's nice. You know, like you could see why he would become popular. Right. um And then do you get why a girl could legitimately like even if she's like yeah a hot popular girl. Like, yeah, I mean, he's he's a charming guy. It's not just the guitar or the gimmicks. It's not such that he stole a cake from home class. and said He's a nice, charming guy.
00:42:10
Speaker
And, like, he practices guitar on his own. He genuinely enjoys guitar, right? and he's just I love Jay being his guitar. i like, wanted to cheer. Like, when you see the Hoos teacher, like, yeah! I just love the fact that like Jay had that like crazy, like wild v long hair. Right. Like it was really like poofy is the way I'd describe it.
00:42:30
Speaker
Because he ah ah maybe it and maybe it's just the beard because you're like, yeah, that's an adult. That guy's a teacher, even though I'm sure him and Matt are pretty much like the same I think they are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Matt just reads yeah so because of the performance. He just reads younger. So you're like, yeah, that's a teenager. And you see Jay, you're like, yeah, yeah, that's that's a music teacher.
00:42:50
Speaker
Yeah, of course. um I'm just going to. No, no, no. I'm not going to um i bring that up yet. ah One thing to go back to like this whole like, ah you know, angle of romanticism and and their connection. Right. You know, like we got to think about the contents of the films that they had made. Right. And what the contents of like what this next film is going to be. Right.
00:43:11
Speaker
And in the films that they were making before. Right. Like. There didn't have to be like a seduction scene in a nightclub where Matt Johnson had to dress up in a woman's clothing and flash himself on the camera purposefully. Malkovich, Malkovich. And it's just funny that that's a T. I mean, I think I had seen being John Malkovich like around when I was in high school. But the fact that those are the reference, like it makes sense that for me.
00:43:39
Speaker
Someone that young to be referencing like usual suspects. You see the Pulp Fiction poster on on the the wall. That'll make sense. Pulp Fiction beat for beat at one point. Right. But but yeah, that person too. But but to but to to have like the being John and specifically that part from being John Malcolm. Right. Which is so unexpected. And there's another part, too, with a flash, too, because when um when he's like showing his like uniform for the the shooting and they're like doing like a little fashion show thing, he's like, oh, yeah, what if we do breakaway pants? And then he break he pulls the pants off and like his balls are out.
00:44:15
Speaker
there There are like many moments. And then like there's also times where they're hanging out and like Matt's just in his underwear. Right. Yeah. When they're doing when they're doing like fully. Yeah. Yeah. And he said, which is a funny scene in these, like you know, because he's Matt Johnson doing funny rabbi references, both Boulders Gate NPCs. But like, yeah. And Owen even clark is like, why are you in your underwear?
00:44:38
Speaker
And he doesn't have an answer for that. so So what I'm getting at here with like this, like romanticism element, right? It's like, I feel like when you're in high school specifically, right? Like you're talking about this John Malkovich reference specifically, right? I feel like, you know, you're young, you're a teenager, you have all of these things that are floating in your mind and and so certain things come to you, right? And certain things really mean something to you, but you don't really understand intellectually why, right? And I think that when he's making this movie, and he's like, oh, you know, I got to put this in there. And he goes with that moment specifically. That's like him sorting through perhaps the emotions that he's actually feeling. Right. Right. And he's cloaking that through these films like an actual artist does. But the issue is, is that he himself is completely unaware of how to channel that in a way of ownership. Right. The fact that he is doing this in a completely he's he has no idea how he's coming across. Right. It's completely embarrassing because there's the thing of like he his character in this and then also his persona in and other things is like that. He's kind of like, you know portrayed as like someone without shame because of just like ignorance and that that doesn't occur to you him. But when they show the project in class,
00:45:51
Speaker
I think it's not just because they were forced to go with, you know, like, oh, they had to take out the violence and this is like a PG-13 edit. He's embarrassed specifically at the Malkovich part. Like everyone's laughing at that. And this was like, you know, like an intimate part. He's putting himself out there.
00:46:07
Speaker
he He put himself out there and he's being mocked for it. And he even he puts that into words specifically when he when he was talking about that he got bullied one time for like sweatpants, you know, like sometime ah he was like at arcade and it was like, oh, sweatpants are out or so or something. And he's like, i think that was the first time I got like made fun of just for being me, you know? And it's like, yeah, he, he's maybe not even cognizant or they're fully there of like who he is.
00:46:34
Speaker
In terms of how he feels about Owen, but that is him. And that the fact that he put himself out there and was made fun of for that, like that hurts. Yeah. Of course. Right. It's it's an honest expression, even if he doesn't understand the expression that he's putting out there. Right. And to not receive be received well is a sting to him. And it it even goes before before that moment, the the moment where they're like sitting with the teacher and he's like, you know, trying to help them channel their energy. like and And by the way, I love the teacher in this movie, the way he plays that moment.
00:47:05
Speaker
Right. the The perfect balance of like I imagine myself in the position of the teacher. i'm like, yeah, I would say these things. Right. where it's like you're seeing problem problematic situations with these kids, you know, like they're putting guns in the movie. Right. Or they're swearing a lot. Right. And instead he's treating it. He's like, we're going to tone this down. Treat. treat I'm like your producer. Right. Like he's like trying to, like, you know, rationalize it for them in ah in a fun way. Right. But at the same time, ah he can recognize that there's an issue happening here. He can recognize that, you know, um there is a path that's being gone down here. And it's right really only when they stop like producing these ah clips to a teacher that Matt is able to like go further and further into these Because no no one's checking on in on them other than Owen. But even Owen's not keyed into like full thing because like there's, you know, by the end, he's showing ah Owen a cut. He's like, I haven't seen these scenes. He's like, oh, right. You haven't seen. Like, he doesn't know anything about the blueprints or like any of any of all the planning that he's put into this because he's just done that on his own. And he, at least part of him knows that he needs to keep that stuff to himself to be able to put it away. I mean, just like the whole thing, like towards the very end when he burns his journals, because he knows that like, this is very incriminating.
00:48:22
Speaker
Or he's written things in there that he doesn't want other people to read, like his true emotions that, you know, could lead to... Exactly. That's what I'm getting at here, right? And then also it's very important to note that this is, yes, still a ah fucking found footage film, right? There are many moments where we get... ah you know, clips from this film that no one else will see but Matt because they are edited together by Matt, right? And there are moments that ah he will be editing and he will literally turn around and talk to like somebody who is holding the camera and talk to them about what he's doing, trying to figure out what he's doing in the moment, but because the people who are behind the camera are voiceless because they, you know, never interact with what's actually happening, right? Right. Who knows? I feel like during one lunch scene, you maybe hear a laugh that I interpreted to be from the camera guy that it was like maybe someone in my head can it's just like some, you know, like there is a third friend. He's just like mostly silent because he's, you know, got the duty of of being the the camera guy. But like there was there was some kind of chuckle during one part. I was like, I don't think that's anyone we're seeing. That might be the camera guy. There is also the reading and I'm thinking through this reading as I'm saying it. Right. But the idea that like the camera people in this film are completely fictitious and that these are just people who are within Matt's head.
00:49:41
Speaker
Right. Because there are many times where like, you know, like he's talking to his mom later in the film, asking her if he's crazy. Right. For the way that he's behaving. A moment I really want to dig into a bit later on. That's a great scene. Yeah.
00:49:53
Speaker
It's one of the but my favorite scenes in the film. um and But there's there's a like while he's talking to her. Right. And you can see that the camera people are trying to shoot inside of the house through the windows. There are moments where like Matt Johnson sees the camera people and he's going like he's like pointing at them, just like giving little head nods. Right. Like he's always aware of the camera. Matt Johnson is and everybody else just like, you know, they're just existing. Right. Right.
00:50:19
Speaker
Nobody is cognizant of the cameras the same way Matt is. So like there's a part of me that's like maybe in editing, maybe in the way that the story has taken shape, there is a way that you could interpret all of the recordings of these film this film as ah kind of like phantom within Matt's own mind. Yeah.
00:50:36
Speaker
Well, just like the production of these projects themselves blur the line between like what is the scripted and what what is real. I think that's happening here in in the film because I think ah building off your read that it could be both that like, yes, there's scenes like that where it's like, There's no reason that they would be filming this for the movie and we never see him editing that footage. I don't know that anyone's actually filming this, that this is just in Matt's mind.
00:51:00
Speaker
But then maybe there is an actual camera like in the parts when he's actually filming stuff with Owen, like that there is there is someone there holding the camera or they just put it on a tripod or something. But um there is reality with Owen, at least. Right. Right. Whenever Owen's on screen, you're you're like, OK, this is grounded in some level of reality. But like any moment that we're alone with Matt, I am like questioning. I'm second guessing. Right. and and And that alone. Right. Is more interesting filmmaking to me than Blackberry.
00:51:28
Speaker
Right. And I don't want to put poo on Blackberry. Right. Because like. It's great movie. To kind of go back to something you were saying. Right. Like great movie. and And kind of go back to something you were saying about like, how do we adapt these docudramas? You know, how how do we make them interesting? What i love about Blackberry is that it's like a story of Canada.
00:51:43
Speaker
it's ah's It's literally like what happens to Canada over and over again. It's not just a story about BlackBerry. It's about like the faults of our industry failing because of just kowtowing to like the needs of a different market or because like, you know, we don't push ourselves in the right directions. Right. And the faultiness of like the infinite growth of the capitalism demands or something. Yeah.
00:52:07
Speaker
Exactly. um But to go to something like Dirty's, it feels a lot more universal. It feels like, you know, this is a Canadian film, but this very much. This can happen in a school anywhere.
00:52:18
Speaker
can happen in America is what I'm getting at. You know, this feels like it could very well be an American school. um and other Other than when an accent slips, you it could totally be American. Mainly when they say sorry.
00:52:32
Speaker
yeah There are two bullies I wanted to shout out, one for appreciation and one you'll understand for why. ah So the first bully, I just love the fact that there is a bully who is like nerdier than them, right? Like the kid with glasses and buck teeth. That yeah makes fun of Matt. I love that guy. I love whatever. There's a cutaway to him. He's just a bright presence. I enjoy him. And he's the one well the one that Matt outwardly, through like most of the scheming is private about like what he's going to do. But there's something about that's like inferior about someone who's like should be lower on the totem pole who's like shitting on you where he's like, you know what? I'm bringing a gun to school. like He just says it to him.
00:53:14
Speaker
I hope the storm doesn't blow you like your mom blew me last night. What? You heard me. I don't, you, the storm's gonna blow. Yeah, you heard me.
00:53:26
Speaker
You know what? Fuck it. You know, Larry, we're coming to school with guns to kill you. Okay. Do you know that? Yeah. Yeah. We're coming to school with guns to kill you. No, we're not. You're not gonna fucking tell anybody. We're not. And that's why you guys aren't pushing. You're dead. You're dead. You're dead. You're dead. can't fight your own battle. I've just finished telling you we are. Stop it.
00:53:44
Speaker
He's like, you're dead.
00:53:50
Speaker
on on On the note of the second bully, and this is my closest personal connection to this film, right? So ah there is a bully in this film, right? He wears a green headband. He sits behind Matt Johnson and slaps him, right? his ah His name is Ali Reza Shoje, right? um So I worked at a movie theater, a cineplex for all you Canadians, at the same time as him.
00:54:15
Speaker
We were friends and worked at the same movie theater. that's crazy And he he already had shot the dirties because I knew he was an actor already. Right. And I'd seen the dirties because I was a fan of Kevin Smith. I didn't know he was in it. I just wanted to watch this movie. And then I found out he was in it and I fucking worked with him. So like one day I'm working.
00:54:34
Speaker
And I'd seen the dirties and I just come up to him just like, Ali, you know, like, cause obviously that's what everyone called them. And you know that's how I called them. I was just like, Ali, like you're in the dirties, right? Like, and he's like, yeah. I'm like, tell me all about it. Like, like yeah what was like shooting that movie? He's like, oh, it was a blast, man. Like he was, he wasn't on it too much or anything, just a few days, but he was, he like had a great time. You know, he was talking about how much fun it was. It's like really interesting movie, wasn't it? Really interesting. Yeah. he You can that he wasn't like, you know, fully in on it you know, but he's not in the sense that he didn't get it, you know, but he was like, I don't know what's... It's pretty out there. I mean, you know, like, yeah. Exactly, right?
00:55:10
Speaker
na but But he does he does have a he does have a a memorable presence of like, because like... There is kind of just the collective of Maybe that's informed by the movie they're making about the dirties where it's like, yeah, it's kind of an amorphous blob of these bullies, but some of them do stand out. And I think specifically he does because in that scene, he you know, slaps Manchester, but he's like behind him in class, like just whispering stuff like behind, like, yeah. He tells them to shut up when they're just he's just talking to Owen. But then he just starts like whispering things like to to him, like little insults, like calling him a pussy, I think, or something like it's like real. He's got a great smile. Right. yeah He says those things that goes like like he's always like so happy about it after he does it.
00:55:54
Speaker
Is he the one who sits down and starts enjoying the cake when Owen brings the because one of the dirties does have some of the cake. Is that is that I don't remember if that was. I don't recall. Truth be told.
00:56:05
Speaker
but Like, i um personally, like, when I remember that, I just more imagine the blowout fight that they have after the fact. Like, the the cakes, like, eating, to me, doesn't register as much because, like, ultimately, right, it's like this massive disgrace to Matt Johnson, right?
00:56:17
Speaker
He's like, how dare you give kindness to the dirties, right? And Owen wasn't even focused on that because he's just happy that his crush was pleased. know, like it's like she loved the cake and the gesture. So to him, the plan was massive success. But, you know, like all Matt can focus on is the betrayal of like, how could you? You just let him have it. I mean, you do see Owen look like mildly annoyed when the dirty sits down and like kind of helps himself do it. But he kind of brushes it because it's like, yeah, yeah that's not what his focus is on right now. It's on it's on the girl. Totally, right? And as is God-given right, right? Owen was allowed to, you know, want to mooch on a lady, right? and the And the big issue for Matt is that, like, it's not even that, like, ah you know, that's happening, but it's like her association with the, in quotations, dirties, right? The idea that she is okay with them and to some degree she is, like, you know, a part of them, right? That's how his mind is able to kind of, like,
00:57:16
Speaker
lu like lump them in right because she might she even appears like her and her friend are in one of their movie like when they're showing uh before they show their movie because they had the plan of like oh let's just ask that because we need like you know i think i think he was like maybe we don't show that malcolm she let's get actual girl for the nightclub scene we'll just ask them and then cut to in class they're watching one of the dirties movies and they're in and they're like shit you know like that that That they like basically feel like their idea was was stolen. And and now looping in back with like how Matt feels about, oh, and I'm now remembering all the times where he just keeps saying, i think her name is is Katie or k Chrissy because it's like both Chrissy. Both girls are named Chrissy ah that he's just saying how dumb she is. And and like, yeah, like I've experienced that in,
00:58:05
Speaker
on either end in, uh, you know, being younger, a friend has a crush or you have a crush and the friend is like, ah, that girl's just, just dumb. Sometimes that is not like, it's, it's, it's just ah a resentment of like, oh, your focus has, drifted from me your friend and not it's not always like you know pure a purely romantic thing although in this case i think it is for matt i think it is like that that resentment because it he definitely hones in on multiple times like when they put the mic by her locker he's like she's so stupid or when she ask he asked yes what arbitrary he does that the way would would would when she asked what arbitrary means he's like she asked what arbitrary means she's so stupid
00:58:46
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Because like Matt likes to be the expert, right? Like that's the, that's part of his character. And that's a part of the character that kind of trans like goes along with Nirvana, the man the show and so forth. Right. Even Operation Avalanche, he tried, he's always trying to appear to be the smartest person in the room and can sometimes convincingly do so through his passion.
00:59:05
Speaker
But what stumbles through is like his actual mistakes, right? Like his mistakes become too but glaring that, you know, it becomes impossible not to call them out. And no one does. Right. Oh, and when asked, like, to find Arbitraer, he can't. Like, he doesn't even know.
00:59:20
Speaker
and and And also something I wanted to get to as well is, like so like, all the movies that we've talked about as the reference point, something that you pointed out is, like, they're very obviously, you know, like, entry-level high school stuff, you know. I'm almost surprised there wasn't a ah Boondock Saints route, unless there was one I missed.
00:59:38
Speaker
I was going to say the exact fucking same thing. Boondock Saints was the only thing that's Boondock Saints and Clerks. And the only reason that Clerks is in it is because Kevin's fucking Smith produced the film. but That is the Clerks reference that Kevin Smith produced it. Yeah. is in At least there was no John Wayne Gacy animation at the start of it. Yeah.
00:59:58
Speaker
the the um the The interesting thing with the Matt Johnson's ah chosen films that he's like glommed onto as like his favorites, right? Or like ones that he holds as appreciative.
01:00:10
Speaker
Let's call a spade a spade. beyond Beyond being John Malkovich, they're very masculine films, right? they're not even even Even Malcolm X, a movie that's great. It's very, you know, there's great female performance. Angela Bassett's great in but it's in service of the, you know, in like the world...
01:00:27
Speaker
I mean, the the I think the power of that movie is it it does allow ah its characters to be very flawed and even like have the contrast in the worldviews of like, yes, in terms of black liberation, we should get behind what what he's saying. But some of these are kind of retrograde beliefs, you know, in terms of like the woman's role and and stuff like that. ah So like it is a very masculine film. So like I think that for sure that all tracks. Yeah.
01:00:53
Speaker
and And also a Pulp Fiction, right? Like in my eyes, right? Like Pulp Fiction, like that movie sells itself on Uma Thurman on the poster, right? But let's let's be real, right? Like Uma Thurman's great in the movie, but like everyone left that movie going like Samuel Jackson, right? They they left that movie thinking about like Bruce Willis with the samurai sword, right? they they that's ah That's a movie. I would say all of his movies are pretty...
01:01:15
Speaker
best Even Kill Bill. like i would maybe For sure. i i would i would say Jackie Brown's the mid one you could make the case for being the exception because that's his best film. But also, yeah, it's ah but she has a lot more interiority instead of just being like yeah male gaze, like cool girl. I mean, she is badass as hell, but like it's also she's like of a person. Yeah. And also let's let's go ah further with the the being John Malkovich as the outlier, right? Because like obviously that film is so much the outlier in the the selection of these films, right? Like usual suspects gets name dropped so often in this, right? Like they even do the whole like, give me the keys, you fucking gotcha. Give me the keys, you fucking gotcha. Like out of context, makes no sense for the scene. It's literally just they like the line. and they Yeah. um but But with being John Malkovich, right, like I think the only reason that like Matt Johnson's character is drawn to that film is because like in large part,
01:02:12
Speaker
Like it's about like being in the wrong body. It's about like not being comfortable within your own existence almost in a way and having to control others in order to get some kind of appreciation. And how does the film end? It ends being stuck in the wrong body without with no control. Right. And in many ways, like Matt Johnson takes the opposite direction.
01:02:32
Speaker
route where he's in control of his body he does ah take the mantle but he has no idea weight the heft of his actions even in the moment he has no like attachment to reality in any kind of meaningful sense he does the things that he does um but at no point do you feel any remorse any kind of reality there and I think it has to do in large part with how he feels dis disconnected from his own true self I think you're right on the money there. There's a scene where he's editing and he's looking at like one of the bullies, like ah throwing him to the ground. He's like, it doesn't even feel real when you see it happening to yourself. But I think he's outside of his body and detached like that in his waking life. Like it kind of reminds me of 100 percent.
01:03:19
Speaker
Of the scene in ah The Fablemans where Spielberg is watching his parents have basically like their breakup fight and he's seeing himself in the mirror like filming it like that. That's what he's thinking of in the moment.
01:03:31
Speaker
Like that's that's how he's processing this like traumatic thing that. ah This is like The Fablemans, but like the kid who's bullied in high school. Really? Right. Yeah. Yeah. And because mostly he's he's bullied in the Fablemans. But most kids, when they're bullied, don't make ah a propaganda film making their bully a golden guy, and which fucks with their bully's head. i mean, that's a great strategy. Everyone should do that to their bully. It's great psychological warfare.
01:03:57
Speaker
and also, like, they don't get to be played by Gabriel Abel. Right. Who, like, exudes confidence and and like is effortlessly cool. Right. Even I have a monkey at home that's smarter than you.
01:04:10
Speaker
He's great in that movie. and He's great. Never like Snack Shack. o big fan of him. ah But ah but when it comes to Matt Johnson and obviously, you know, he's not going to portray himself the same way in the Fablemans because, you know, he's Spielberg end of his life. You know, he's allowed to have that fucking flex. Right. He's he's allowed to add to lie and say he had a very Christian girlfriend. I like when one of his friends from high was like that.
01:04:31
Speaker
That was that was bullshit. He didn't have a girlfriend. Just be like, yeah, I went to school. him He's a nerd. Fuck that guy. Come on. let let Let him write in that funny little scene that was charming, especially if you're viewing this film from like the perspective, because like there are people who are going to watch The Fablements because it's a Steven Spielberg film, but not know it's like a one to one of his life.
01:04:55
Speaker
Right. There are people who are going to watch that movie just expecting some kind of like, you know, feel good movie. You know, that's just the nature of dumb audiences. If you watch that movie just as like, you know, and ah like almost like um what's what's the James L. Brooks produced like set.
01:05:11
Speaker
Age of 17 or whatever. Oh, sure. Like like if if they view Fablements from like almost that kind of perspective, are you there, God, it's me, Margaret? Like it's it's in the same ballpark as those kinds of movies, right? um But with the to go back and bring it back to Matt Johnson, right? Obviously, he's like accelerating the parts of himself that are in his daily life as we've established, you know, autobiographically. He obviously is somebody who's really into movies, but he's pushing these things forward. to an extreme degree to kind of like underlie ah the unlikable elements, but then also dig deeper into the roots that are at the problems within, you know, this whole thing that we call cinema fandom, right? This idea that you can, you know, lose sight of the weight of violence, the, what a movie is trying to say, and instead trying to graft that onto your own life with no, you know, rhyme or reason. Yeah.
01:06:04
Speaker
Like, I am with you where this movie is really amazing. um I don't know if I would say it's like one of my favorite indie productions, but like even just in this conversation. Well, I just meant terms of I'm just you think that it's aged well.
01:06:16
Speaker
Yeah, I didn't mean like my favorite overall in independent production. I just meant terms of like how whenever i you know, when I was getting into like Raimi and hearing about the production of The Evil Dead, it's like, wow, that is really inspiring. me words in your mouth. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, you know. It's just like you could just have an idea in the camera in the pad because like, yeah i mean, in terms of movie, this was like $10,000, which, you know, like, like, yeah, that's a lot. of That's a lot of money outside of filmmaking. But for a film budget, that's fucking nothing. That's a Moturn movie right there. He made this on a Moturn movie budget, you know, so like yeah you watch if you watch ah if you watch this movie, The Dirties and Magic Spot, I think that's enough to radicalize anybody to just grab a camera and make it there on their own.
01:07:02
Speaker
Yeah. we have We have one in our pockets right now. We all have cameras now. A cellular device like a fucking Steven Soderbergh would be so happy to hear you say that, Doug. You know, Steven Soderbergh is like, yes, and here's all the attachments you need.
01:07:18
Speaker
but And dany boyles Danny Boyle is just standing there nodding. He's like, mm. Nice. No, he he's true he's still trying to sell you on the red. You know, he's he's got an old red kicking around. He's trying to get rid of, you know, he's like, come on you know, keep in your backpack, you know. I'll i'll tell you. Give it to me. Yeah.
01:07:38
Speaker
Fine. i would not take a red. i i much prefer Sony and other camera brands.
Technical Aspects of Filmmaking
01:07:45
Speaker
um i Maybe just just to have. Make me upset. red Red's like the UI is really annoying on red cameras. And like, it's just like a headache. You know, I'd rather you use another camera in my eyes, you know? No, I, I, I'm most comfortable.
01:07:59
Speaker
I'm, I'm most comfortable with a Sony. I'm not saying like I, the red's like my go-to. It's just kind of just the novelty of having it in my back pocket. Kind of like if someone offered me an IMAX camera, which I've never used, but I'd be like, yeah, give I'll take it.
01:08:15
Speaker
Time to start doing the bench presses, you know, put that baby on your arm, you know? Yeah. Just wheel around the giant rolls of, like, I'll just play around with that. yeah Yeah. I don't even need to shoot anything. I'm just to play with it.
01:08:28
Speaker
You're just, you're just going to be like in your room and there's just like film reels everywhere, you know? just yeah It's a totally like tactile experience where you're just rubbing your hands, maybe your feet on it too. Just like, you know, movies. That's what happens there. Yeah.
01:08:43
Speaker
um but But with the dirties, right, kind of bring it back on track here. um it's It's a situation where ah we're watching this downfall of this friendship and you you especially feel, ah you know, like the... ah drastic pulls to get this friendship back on track from Matt's end. I really love the scene where they go out and shoot guns.
01:09:06
Speaker
um I think that that's like a, and also i really love those in between moments, especially after the film collapses and you get like that pursuit of happiness montage. i think that like That seems awesome. ah and And that's the one where it's like, oh, I guess Owen is there, so that must be real. But i I am thinking that is taking me out of the reality the most where I'm thinking about the cameraman where I'm like, this is like really impressive cinematography, like a student film. Yeah. The fact of like that they're he's going backwards and following them on the bikes. And I'm like, yeah, this is this fucking awesome. It like it sells the magic of being young, hanging out with your friends, you know, yeah like and in Matt Johnson's case, like being with your friend. Right. And you can see why Matt cherishes the relationship he has with Owen.
01:09:54
Speaker
ah But then um and also in that moment, you can see why Owen ah sees a brightness in Matt. Right. But it's really when it comes down to like the specifics. and It becomes in how you operate in the world and how you interact, interface with others. Right. And that's really where Matt gets the losing grades, where Owen has to distance himself a bit, where he's like, the more I am with you, the less I can be a regular person.
01:10:20
Speaker
You know, because he tries to make it work and go along and humor him as much as he can, because he's like trying to include Matt on his pursuit of Chrissy. And he's like, help, I need a plan and stuff. He's like, I'm going to the cottage to shoot guns with with my cousin. And so Owen's just kind of very awkward. Like, I like guns like he wants to be in Matt's life. Like he clearly guns are not. I i do not believe that that though that was like be his number one choice of activity. But it's a way for him to spend time with his best bud. And, you know, he wants to collaborate on like figuring out a play. Cause like it's, it pointed that like they're asking the other people after they shoot guns or like they're hanging out with, ah the cousins friends and, uh, Matt's telling him like this whole cake plan and one of the girls at the ah bonfire is like, no, no, no, don't do that. And then she's even telling him like, yeah, just be just be normal. Don't do it. Don't be creepy. Don't do the the cake plan. Cut to they're making the cake like he has heard this information and he probably knows it. Like, yes, this is the much riskier play, but he gets to do it with his best friend.
01:11:27
Speaker
And also, like, there's a level of, like, adolescence at play, too, right? Like, these are not adults. They are not, you know, making the most sound decisions, and nor should they, you know? Like, they're still learning, right? The cake plan just sounds more fun, so let's do that one. Exactly. Exactly. Of course, they're going to do that because like it's an event. Right. And it's only in the fallout of that that, you know, Owen has to piece those things together and be like, yeah, this is not how I want to live my life. And for Maddie, it's like, oh, well, it's just, you know, i got to just do, a you know, a couple of things differently. It's like fucking going to the Rivoli, right? It's only ah like he he just has like this narrow mind, right? He needs to get to this position.
01:12:05
Speaker
Everything else just doesn't make any sense. You know, ah why why would you bring this up to me? That's not what I'm saying I want to do. I need to do this. Right. And that's the thing that stops him from, you know, being able to understand even what humanity is.
01:12:18
Speaker
Is the scene where they have the fight like cut by the cliff side where Owen's saying that like you're always performing is that that's after the fight about the cake, right? Like that's after. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I believe that way you're referencing is like their like their blowout. Like that's it.
01:12:34
Speaker
Yeah. Cause it, there's that. And then there's this scene in Matt's basement where, you know, Matt is saying like, you have nothing without me. Like she wouldn't even have Chrissy because of, you know, my, my, like this brilliant cake plant is the only reason that they're there together. And then, cause it's, it's, just it's the one too of, of that. And the, the scene by the, the cliff sides, just couldn't remember like what order it happens in, but like, yeah, that is like the blow up.
01:13:01
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. And ah like it it really is just inevitable. Right. Like we're watching this film and we're watching like a train wreck unfold in slow motion. And I do feel like Matt does gain some kind of understanding of the loss of that. But rather than trying to channel that in any kind of like self-improvement ways, he's still stuck in this like revenge situation.
01:13:25
Speaker
Bent. That's like definitely brought upon by like media, of course, as we've talked about in the discernment of reality and fiction. But in his eyes, he's like fighting the bad guys. He's like doing a favor to people. So like and he's doing a favor. He's doing a favor to Owen, you know, like that in his mind. That's what he's at. He keeps asking about specific guys that have bullied him of like, who is the name of the guy who threw through the rock at you? Like this is not someone that he personally has beef with, but that's someone who hurt his friend. So he's like, OK, he's on the list. Like I'm making a point to go get him. Like I think in his mind, he does this. Maybe that even repairs the friend. Like that's almost like him doubling down on a plan because it then becomes like a Hail Mary of like, OK, I got to do this because maybe this is the only way to get back in good graces with Owen.
01:14:11
Speaker
Not really. be like he's so divorced from the reality at that point out like that's what makes that final moment so like heartbreaking for sure yeah we're we're kind of gearing up to the end I guess and and one thing gotta point out here is I love the shirts that ah you know ah Matt's wearing throughout the film I really wanted to call out the one shirt he wears that's just blue with white letters that says senior on it love that shirt I want it myself but I like the coat he wears, like when they're doing the movie to the jacket, kind like a coat kind of thing. Great look. And then with the tie kind of hanging off to the side. Yeah, great. That's that's like classic high school. We're making a movie kind of outfit. But but what I'm getting at here is the shirt that he wears on the day of the school shooting is it says just don't worry. I'm only here for the bad guys. Right. Like something along those lines. which he makes that joke to Owen earlier. And Owen is just like, he's just in a bullshitting mode because like, I think he might even be playing N64 or doing something, or maybe he has his guitar in his hand, but it's just like kind of just, you he's in riffing with friends mode. So he's like, you know, laughing at that because it's funny, funny, you know, like, but, but then, you know, to shows that just Matt has been serious about this this this whole time. He's like, no, he's literally going to wear that shirt.
01:15:30
Speaker
Exactly. and And also the idea of the concept of wearing that shirt, right? The idea that like, you know, he's going to wear that shirt, he's going to shoot somebody. And and like like, imagine like in Matt's eyes, I'm not saying this in reality, obviously, Matt shoots somebody, somebody else sees him shoot that guy, then look at his shirt, and it's supposed to feel some...
01:15:50
Speaker
They were like, oh, OK, I'm not scared. Well, I'm not a bad guy. So like what do I don't have to worry about game being shot, you know, because it's so vague. It doesn't even say like the bullies or I'm here for the journeys. Like it's like, no, ah the bad guys. It's like that's like you only you are going to understand who that is. Yeah.
01:16:12
Speaker
and and And I like not to speed through the rest of this film, but I really want to talk about the school shooting itself because I love, love what happens there. I think that's like such a brilliant way of doing the school shooting scene. I think like the idea that he shoots like two people, that's it.
01:16:29
Speaker
Right. He doesn't shoot more than that. And the two people he shoots, like he does that. And then he's like trying to get to people like and like he's calling up for Owen, obviously, because he sees him run. Yeah.
01:16:43
Speaker
But then like he's going into the stairwell to try to chase after some people and he's going like, oh, and everybody's running away down this other hallway. Oh, and everybody's running away. Right. Like the the idea that like what ah Matt did was supposed to be this like I'm going to, you know, get everybody to understand that I'm doing a good thing. in the moment as it's happening, he did this thing that is just repelling everybody for a very justifiable reason. He's killed somebody in a school, right? But it's a situation where, you know, in his warped mind, he's like, but why aren't you, you know, thanking me? Like, what what what is going on? He's legitimately confused when Owen is trying to get away from him. He's cornered in that room and he's like, Owen, it's me, you know? Like, it's like, why why are you concerned? Like, this is...
01:17:31
Speaker
I mean, we talked about this, you know, like, why are you running away? ah Because, yeah, I think in that scene that definitely we see him set up like the GoPros in the hall. But that lends itself most to like, I don't think there's an actual person holding like the camera camera, like the camera that's fought because it's like, who would be going along with that? There's like no one there. Or or like when he is happening and they're just like, got to catch this. you know like This is be great of footage, which is another one of the Oscar.
01:18:02
Speaker
which is one of the other most disturbing parts is when he turns to the camera as he's like getting the different fonts for like the dirty's logo and he's like i can uh you know anime but I think you're gonna have to put these in like the tacit acknowledgement of like I mean most school shooters do not survive the actual event you know like they either ah suicide by cop or they just suicide you know so it's it's like I you know Him being like, yeah, I'm probably not going to be able to do that. But I don't know that he's talking to anyone when he says that. So that's even more disturbing.
01:18:33
Speaker
But the fact that the film ends with those those titles is supposed to, it so on some level, tell us that this is a found footage film. That is the final confirmation that that is the case. But it but but but but in a disturbing way, because we we just end with him in the room with Owen, because then you're like...
01:18:49
Speaker
did Matt edit this? Because like, like almost like did, did, did he get away and edit this? Because the beginning of the movie too is before it says like, uh, something about like the victims and, and, and stuff here. Let me, let me, let me pull it up because it's like, it's on somebody's like screen. That's the interesting thing too is that the movie starts and it's like somebody's screen. You see the reflection of someone like holding a camera, like recording it off of a screen. So that's also that's how see Kevin Smith's logo.
01:19:17
Speaker
Right. So that, i think again because at first I watched this on on, it's free on YouTube. So I was watching it there and i was like, I thought initially that that was someone who ever uploaded it, recording it off of the thing. And then, you know, I was like, oh no, that's how the movie begins. So that also lends screens to like, who is finished this movie? You know, like I don't, and because no one else would really have the motivation to do that other than Matt.
01:19:43
Speaker
Wow. Exactly. And also, ah let's go back to the ending of the film for a second, right? That final confrontation of like Owen and Matt in the room, right? I see that as like, you know, The Graduate, right? You've got Dustin Hoffman, right? He's driven all the way to San Francisco, it is. And and he gets into the church, right? And he he goes, hello!
01:20:04
Speaker
Right? Like, that's the Elaine moment. It's, we don't, like, it's not even getting onto to the bus and doing the bus moment. This is the moment where, like, he's looking into Owen's eyes and he's like, Elaine! You know, he's trying to get him to be like, I'm here. I've done this for you. I'm here to, like, win back your love. And we don't see what happens next, right? We end on that moment. We don't see what happens next. And and personally, the way that I read the ending of this film, i think Matt kills Owen. Yeah.
01:20:33
Speaker
i think he i think I think he does too. It feels like that that's like the only conclusion because, i mean, if someone's scared in that moment, especially, like he he's already kind of you know, lost the battle of trying to break through to, to Matt, maybe you make a desperate, you know, it last ditch effort out of just like self-preservation that you were like, okay. If I like play nice with Matt, maybe he lets me go just cause you, you're scared. But, but then if he does that, you know, like he will play that seat out in your head, Matt would maybe like feel patronized too. And then like shoot him, you know, like be insulted of like, Oh, so you're not with me on this. Now let's take an even further step back, right? Now let's imagine this on the newspaper headlines the day after this happens, right? You live in a a different province, if you will, right?
01:21:23
Speaker
um The idea that he shoots two random people that like, you know, like they're bullied him for sure, right? And and like they they were mean to him and, you know, that was a part of the plan, right? But it like...
01:21:36
Speaker
That wasn't really his goal at the end of the day. He shot those two people, then he ran to Owen, right? Why didn't he keep killing Dirties, right? He chose to go to Owen. And if this idea that we think that, like, Owen's going to be dead by the end of this film, right— There's a part of me that thinks that this is a scorned lover thing, that like the school shooting to kill the dirties had nothing to do about getting back at those bullies at the end of the day. He he was finally, he finally pulled the trigger because of the the betrayal from Owen.
01:22:07
Speaker
i I think you're 100% right, it which then leads to more of the idea that, like, he probably does kill Owen because it's like this grand gesture that he's doing is not being acknowledged or appreciated. Like, I did this for... It's not about the revenge for himself. It's like, no, I did this for you, and you don't...
01:22:26
Speaker
Like, what? You don't even want to be my friend anymore? Like, so, it yeah, that's, that's, it's it's a very sad and the very disturbing ending for, for, for, for this film. And ah we allude to before, but there's a scene before this all goes down.
01:22:43
Speaker
ah where he talks to his mom. And because we've we've seen before when he's reading the ah dictionary definition of a psychopath to Owen is like, hey, what does this sound like Because they've already had the the fight by the cliffside. Okay, so now i'm remembering the order of things. They've had the fight by the cliffside where Owen is saying like, you're always performing like that. This is, oh, you're always in your mind, like doing something for the movie. Like this is like, you need to stop. And then he's reading the the thing, a psychopath of like, you know, can't distinguish features. Columbine. he's really He's reading a book about Columbine. Yeah.
01:23:16
Speaker
Yeah. And, but, but oh Owen is just stopped. Like he doesn't want to even engage with that. Like he, yeah I mean, one, he's texting his girlfriend, but also that's just, if you unravel that, he doesn't want to like, think about it. Like he still cares about his friend. He was really as frustrating as his situation is. If you start unraveling that and then have to confront, Oh, my friend is a psychopath. He doesn't want to poke that bear, yeah,
01:23:43
Speaker
It's like Matt is like doing that almost for as a provocation for attention. Like why specifically reading a book about Columbine and then being to Owen like, hey, ah you think I might be a psychopath? Like that's not more. That's not like just like i need help.
01:23:58
Speaker
i Because I don't think he is actually making a cry for for help. It's more just like, hey, pay attention to me. i You know, like i'm doing this. And also another thing, it's like how ah Matt has carried himself through the rest of this film is that he's always been this way. This like overly energetic, like, look at this thing I just discovered. Oh, I love this thing. It's my favorite thing. Oh, like, look, check it out, you know.
01:24:21
Speaker
And ah when he tries to do this with things that he's actually concerned about, he doesn't change the way that he behaves. Yeah. And in many ways, it's kind of like a boy who cried wolf situation. Right. Because like when we get that sequence with the mother through the window, right, like you can get the impression that she's going like, that's just the way he is. You know, he's just a weirdo kid kind of way, but he he's passionate. not He's cool.
01:24:48
Speaker
and And because of that, right. they lose sight of the very clear warning signs. You know, you you you see a parent who, you know, their kid shoots up a school, even though, you know, you hear the reports from the people who analyze after the fact being like, oh, they were isolated. Oh, you know, they they had no one to talk to. You hear the parents talk about their kid after the fact, and they have no idea.
01:25:12
Speaker
they Like, they to them, they're just like, that that was just like a person living in my house. Right. You know? What happened to my sweet innocent boy? i mean, because the fact that he brings that up to her after the thing with Owen, that then does almost feel like a cry, the closest he comes to a cry for help of like wanting someone, maybe wanting someone to stop him. But no one does. Because like, like you said, it's like a boy who cried wolf thing because...
01:25:37
Speaker
i i you know In his mind, yes, this is a gesture for for for Owen, and that's you know what what propels him to to that finale. But I think there's also the part of him was like, maybe I shouldn't do that. You know, like if there there's still like... you know, a human rational part in him. Because like, you're you're bringing that up to multiple people now of like, am I a psychopath? And so like, yeah, that to me is not just like an attention thing. It's more like by the time he's going to his mom, because also the mother mothers is are, it's like, that's where it's it's safety reaffirmation that you go to for- of course for that. And he's already made the reference before that almost, he's almost paying her as like a neglectful mother when he, when, uh, when Owen makes the comment of like, you have this board with like, you know, the bullies on here was what your mom thing is like, well, she's not gonna think anything. She'll come down here. I mean, she doesn't come down here or even if she did, she'd be like, Oh, Matt's doing another thing, you know, like that she doesn't care. So that's almost like him challenging that to come, to him coming to her with the psychopath question of like,
01:26:45
Speaker
Do you care enough to like actually address this for me? And again, to go back to what was brought up before, right? This idea that like as this conversation is playing out, as he's trying to have this like honest conversation with his mother, I don't think that either of us disagree that he's not like, you know, coming to this conversation in earnest or not. Right. Right. But like as this conversation is playing out, he's looking out the window and he's still like nodding to the camera. He's still like, you know, giving it little like looks and points, you know. And and it's this idea that even in what's supposed to be one of his most earnest, you know, expressions of or like one of his most earnest, ah you know, moments of reaching out. He's still winking at the camera.
01:27:27
Speaker
He's still it's still a performance of some kind. Now let's go further back to what you were bringing up with this confront conversation with Owen in the Columbine book. There's no irony there, right? that that that is That is Matt like open palm being like, I think this is me, right? He's saying it in the energetic way, right? He's doing it in his normal mode.
01:27:46
Speaker
But it's because, like, you know, he's an excitable teenager and he can only express himself in a few ways, right? It's one of those situations where it becomes hard for Owen to differentiate. And also on top of that, Owen's not an adult. You know, Owen, you know... There is no, you know, I would not put the weight of trying to understand this or knowing to when this thing is happening. There's no wherewithal in his mind at this point to even think about that. Right. Like something I was saying before. Right. This idea that like friends drift apart in high school. Right. And, you know, it it can be for very similar reasons that are in this film. It could be for any multitude of reasons. Right.
01:28:24
Speaker
This concept of like they drift apart and this one person holds resentment so much that That, like, they come back and they try to kill you. Right. That's kind of like the worst case scenario.
01:28:35
Speaker
Right. And one that wouldn't even occur to Owen, like, even though he's seen all these red flags, it's just not something that would enter your mind. Because I like like you said, like, that's a natural thing for friends to drift apart. And to him, that's probably just what is happening. That like.
01:28:51
Speaker
Yeah. ah I mean, obviously something very weird and disturbing is happening to to, you know, this person he used to be very close to. But you still don't want to believe that it's like going to be like, oh, the natural conclusion of this is that he's going to come to school and kill me.
01:29:08
Speaker
And also to take it into ah another step, right? It's like, I feel like that makes this film a bit more universal. I think i feel like ah by make framing this film around this kind of drifting apart and this possible romance on the other side, I think that it's actually like in some way kind of like speaking to a a universal experience that like, kind of everybody goes through, you know, where the drifting apart is going to happen. You can but be on either side of that flag, right? And you will understand that situation, right?
01:29:35
Speaker
um But at the same time, what makes this film so compelling is the response to this situation. And I feel like most people who watch this film hopefully understand exactly, you know, how unhealthily Matt's taking this stuff.
01:29:49
Speaker
Well, yeah, especially, i mean, even if I saw this in 2013, it'd be pretty glaring. And obviously this isn't good, but like yeah with the the hindsight of how many times we've seen this play out, especially because like 2013 people who would we would label as incels definitely existed, but us like clearly identifying like that phenotype, I feel like hadn't fully crystallized of like where we were like, like clocking them like more readily like they were definitely amongst us like that kind of guy is like existed in some form for a while i mean we like we got into that when we were talking about screen and uh stuff like that but like uh but i i think that since we've seen this because like most of the time at least in the school setting it is someone who is like
01:30:39
Speaker
has some kind of incel-ish tendencies. It may not be like like a best friend they have a crush on, but to just be like them feeling scorned by the world or like women in general. general You know, that it's just like, yeah, no one loves me. I'm now going to kill everyone.
01:30:54
Speaker
Right. like to go off of what you're saying there about, oh by the way, I like the way that you described incels as a phenotype. I think it's really funny. But when it comes to the ah idea of, um you know, ah us being able to identify this kind of behavior, especially in 2013. Right. Again, one of the reasons why i think this film's aged very well is like this is before like.
01:31:16
Speaker
you know, YouTube online skeptics, you know, this was before like your Sargons of a cod, right? Which is like who I would bring up in terms of the conversation of, you know, the pipeline that led people down, you know, these like anti-woke, you know, like bigoted opinions. It led to like the rise of like, you know, anti-immigration and and Trump policies, all of these things, you know, you can draw a direct line in terms of like talking points and all of that stuff, right? And when it comes to like an incel in 2013, right, I do think that these things are still understandable. And, you know, ah yeah especially as people who grew up in this era, right, I feel like you and i both understand that they're like, it takes shape in different ways. And in many ways, in especially in that period,
01:32:04
Speaker
it felt like the parents really weren't aware, right? It didn't feel like they were watching what was going on, right? And that allowed for a lot of this kind of ideologies to to take shape the way that they have, right? Like there were so many of these, you know, like watch out what your kid is doing on the internet kind of things. And then like you...
01:32:22
Speaker
listen to like what the parents were doing at the time or you talk to like kids that you grew up with at the same time how they treated it you know there were a lot of people who just did not care because they were too busy you know or like right just let it happen right and because of that like the alienation took hold right and because of that the parents really became very similar to like Matt Johnson's you know in this film Right. And I think that it's very interesting that like even early on in this film.
01:32:48
Speaker
Right. Like it's something that has repeated over and over again and has only gotten worse with the proliferation of this kind of technology. So um I think that it's a very prescient in films in many in many ways, ah but specifically within its commentary and how these kind of ideology ideologies take shape.
01:33:08
Speaker
Yeah, agreed. it It's only gotten, I definitely would have been affected by it if I'd seen it when it was released, but feel like it's only gotten more powerful and and prescient ah with with time.
01:33:19
Speaker
Yeah, I don't know. this This movie's great. I need to revisit my found footage rankings, but I, could be maybe with the recency bias, I'm willing to be like, ah, maybe top 10? I don't know. Oh, man. Like, ah. Hey, no argument there. I would say this is in the top five. yeah Call me Chris Rock, you know, like this is a top five found footage.
01:33:41
Speaker
ah Not even, I would even call it a horror film, you know, like who knows, right? It was on Shudder. Like I ended up watching it on YouTube, like ah but then I looked, because I have Shudder and I, it it was, I guess they maybe taken it off recently, but it was on there. So it's like, cause it is, I am scared as we get to to the end, like, cause... It's like, like you said, we want someone to step in.
01:34:04
Speaker
We want rational minds to prevail. But because we'd had so much fun in the beginning, i mean and I'm going in with the connection already to Matt Johnson or like the other characters he's played. And it's like, I don't want to see him do a school shooting. I'm like, no, Matt, do it.
01:34:18
Speaker
um but But also like ah the violence similar to Spree, right? Like there's a weightlessness to it because we are with Matt Johnson, right? um It almost feels like we're seeing the fantasy version of that enactment, even though we we also get the concurrently, like you said, like it doesn't even go successfully, shoots two people and everyone starts running and then it it is very awkward. But...
01:34:42
Speaker
we are keep cutting back to that probably non-existent cameraman at that point. So that it does could ah contribute to the fantasy. And I wanted to talk about, like, I watched a behind the scenes of how, I was just wondering like, how did they shoot this part? Uh, uh, so apparently when they were doing a first take cause you know, uh,
01:35:01
Speaker
I don't know, Baldwin might not be listening, but normally you have like gun safety people on set when you do stuff like this. So I'm just kidding. Like, Alec, I'm sorry. You hire better people. So somehow a $10,000 film production in Canadian dollars, mind you, was able to do this.
01:35:21
Speaker
Yeah, maybe maybe don't let all your Union ah armors like go offset or something. um But anyways, who knows? Who knows? ah Who's to say? But the ah the squib that ah when he shoots the the first bully went off early, ah like it during the first take. And then in the actual film, it kind of looks like the blood is like digital for for for the spread. It's very quick, but sure I think it might be digital. So I think like because of that, like, uh, misfire. And when they redid it, they maybe went with digital, but like seeing the behind the scenes, they were usually live round, like they're blanks, but there were live rounds. And like, you can even hear it's even, it feels even more real in the behind the scenes because you like hear like the, like shell hit the ground after he fires a shot and stuff. So it almost feels like an intentional choice. Like besides the, like, you know, this, uh, the squib incident that and it almost feel felt like a choice of like, oh wait, what?
01:36:17
Speaker
should we kind of embrace some artifice of this? Like not just to maybe because you're dealing with such intense, ah heavy stuff. Can you, you still portrayed seriously, but does it have to be like that intense? And then also you're being like, are we a little bit in Matt's mind still? Because he's like, you were almost getting like the kind of video gamified version of it where it's like not quite as like,
01:36:44
Speaker
you know, actual warfare because, you know, it's like not, you know, the blood looks like slightly a little faker and, you know, we're not getting like the, is intense gun sound effects.
01:36:57
Speaker
I mean, it's it's still an intense. This is not me like digging on the scene because it's still very intense. Actually, one thing i will say about that scene that like is my favorite parts of like how some of these things are captured, because this film is like, even though it's presented as sound footage, even what you were saying before about the the whole like pursuit of happiness, the bike scene, those are those are shots that take...
01:37:18
Speaker
careful consideration in planning. So the fact that, you know, you could do those things in this kind of movie and and make it feel realistic, that's already impressive. But on that note, in that first shooting, right, at the school, right, you get this really long sequence where Matt Johnson is like,
01:37:36
Speaker
puts up the GoPro and like acts out doing the shooting. And like, he makes it seem like, you know, like, Oh, I'm going to put on my hand. I'm to the bag on my hand, grabbing the bag. And he like, he's like kind of center frame. And the camera's kind of lopsided. And you're like, you know what? Like it looks good enough, you know, where it's like, it's going to be close on camera. And then when it actually happens,
01:37:57
Speaker
You can tell that like it's on a different GoPro and it's at a different angle like like it's in the corner of the frame. Like clearly like the person that he wanted to shoot wasn't standing exactly where he wanted him to be. And he was like, I can't waste my moment. I have to shoot him right here. And like something about that, the idea that like we got that long introduction. OK, we're going to shoot him right here. It's going to be in this spot.
01:38:20
Speaker
No other place. And then when it does happen, it's like in the off under the frame. You know what's about to happen, but your eye is already looking there and you're like, so that's where it happens. You know, it's a nice subversion. It's it almost Hitchcockian, I would say. Yeah, because what's the...
01:38:36
Speaker
I think it's from ah Vince Gilligan where he said, you want to know what the plan is beforehand if it's going to go wrong. Or the reverse is like, don't tell the plan if it's going if if it's going to go right, then don't reveal the whole plan. But but but like we've seen him but say the whole movie's been the planning. So it can't go right, you know, completely.
01:38:58
Speaker
And the fact that those are like the only two kills that he gets on dirties, right? And then everything else, you know, captured from the crew that's supposedly filming this whole situation go down, right? Right. I think that that's a very interesting way to play around with this and to bring it back to the found footage rankings, right? The fact that we can have these kinds of conversations, you know, about like who's filming this and who's filming that and we're not, you know, upset, it doesn't break the reality. because it feels intentional. it's It's not just like laziness of like, ah who cares? You know, i mean, and sometimes I'm fine with that in a found footage movie of being like, I've already bought in. Like, that's fine. I don't need to think too hard about don't need to think too hard about in Cloverfield that the the army is
01:39:40
Speaker
and ah seemingly editing it and going I mean yes it'd be videotaped over ah the like this old footage but the army is still like kept that in for like their visual review like no this is more dramatic we need to keep it when it flashes back to him and his his girlfriend keep that in I'm not even like trying to make a dig when I say this but like why did the military leave in all of the fucking T.J. Miller yeah Like, like, like there is no like military reason why they need to have like TJ Miller going around a party being like, oh, I want to ask out this girl, you know, like there there is no reason for that to be in the film. So it's like, you know, in retrospect, maybe the military should have just made like a no TJ Miller ah clause.
01:40:26
Speaker
Hold on. This annoying guy may say something about the entity. Let's leave it Let's leave it. in Wait, you know what Superman is? Like... like Doesn't he say something stupid like that? Yeah. is That she under understands like a very basic character. It's something like Superman or something. I... I think you're right. i think it literally is Superman. i mean, that that movie's great, but the... T.J. Miller of it all. It's weird that he's in two... Because isn't he also in that Kristen Stewart ah movie? That's not found footage movie, but where she's like underwater. It's literally called Underwater. Oh, and yeah. For whatever reason, people love that movie. That movie is a big old bag of turd. I think it's fun. I don't think it's like a masterpiece. I just yeah maybe it's just me wanting to see Cthulhu or anything. But like if you end a movie with ah Kristen Stewart having to fight Cthulhu, I walk away pretty happy.
01:41:19
Speaker
ah If I want my HP Lovecraft, I go to Stewart Gordon. Dagon, you know, find me there. That's where I'm at. That's... That's where you can find. I just liked hearing the directors be like, yeah, originally we had animated. was just could be like a giant whale that looked kind of weird or something. And then we decided to do Cthulhu. was like, good last minute change. Cause I don't know that I would have been scared of the whale.
01:41:41
Speaker
I don't know. I heard many people just did not watch Darren Aronofsky's Oscar contender for, for the exact reason. They were too scared. It's Brendan Fraser doing the face from the poster.
01:41:53
Speaker
No, sorry. It's more like this. yeah great Great podcasting material, by the way, just like several faces. just we're We're doing whale faces.
01:42:04
Speaker
you You know the one. You don' know he does to like. You know, when movies have just the one image available for months and that's all. I've i actually, could I've never seen the whale, so that's all I know about it is that that and that his daughter calls him a slur. Yeah.
01:42:23
Speaker
Yes, you're forgetting one important element, which is Hong Xiao, right? ah legend Not since ah ah Alexander Payne's downsizing has she come in and given a performance that was far too strong ah for what she was asked to do. i mean, that's that's on her for doing it that's just her you know that's just her thing. you know like She's just going to deliver. she doesn't know She has no other mode. She's just like i'm going to sell the shit out of this.
01:42:49
Speaker
she She reminds me of like every time I would play like a WWE video game on like the PS3 or the PS2 because like I would always just like climb up on the top rope and now just jump off and the announcer go they dropped the elbow and like for me like Hong Chao's always dropping that elbow, you know, like she's coming in from the top rope, slamming it down for no reason. You know, she doesn't have to, you know, but Hong Chao's just like, I'm going to, you know, be the villain in Damon Lindelof's Watchmen and I'm going to be really entertaining to watch, you know. i'm i'm goingnna I'm going to swim in the River of Ham and it's going to be delicious. Well, look and she's also playing Jeremy Irons' daughter, so she wasn't like yeah going that hard. We would...
01:43:31
Speaker
but You'd be looking at it a scam, be like, is she really Osmond Days' daughter? But no, because of the way she's playing the shit out of it. You're like, yeah, it seems like some Osmond Days' daughter would do. i believe that Hong Xiao was Jeremy Irons' daughter when she, apropos of nothing, said aloud, ah is it wrong for a mother to sleep with their daughter? but Then like kind of folded her arms and sat back in the chair. yeah and she Like she had made me. Sat for the response. Yeah.
01:44:00
Speaker
No, I think there's incest laws.
01:44:04
Speaker
The interviewer just immediately shuts that down. But it's not incest for two months. For some reason, don't know what we're talking about. Look up Jeremy Irons gay marriage interview, I guess.
01:44:21
Speaker
ah bringing Bringing it back to Ben Mankiewicz. Was that even on mic? Did Ben Mankiewicz talk on mic? I think it was like right at the beginning.
01:44:32
Speaker
Good. Okay. i want I just wanted to double check that. I just wanted to bring this back to Ben Mankiewicz's great incest joke on on the young Turks of all
Matt Johnson's Filmmaking Style
01:44:42
Speaker
places. You know this? I did not see his appearance on that. No.
01:44:47
Speaker
Okay. You know what? I need to go little, like, I need to take a break for a second. You know, maybe you go look that up for a second and I come back after you've seen it and then you've told me your thoughts. how How do you feel about that?
01:45:01
Speaker
yeah Yeah. Let's, let's do that here. I'll stop. yeah The best way to experience this movie would be, if you have to watch it, turn it on TV at home when it comes down to DVD and turn the sound completely off. And then as you're cleaning the house or you've got a party going on, you need the kids to stay occupied, that'll make this a lot more interesting. That's how I had to watch incest porn.
01:45:22
Speaker
What? have to turn the sound down. Then it's just porn. I'm so confused. Okay. Or if you're on an airplane and you need to occupy your kid, let them watch it on an iPad or whatever or on the little screen in front you and then they can watch it. don't have listen to it. I love that we're talking about the kids movie and you bring up incest porn. I'm so confused. I'm just saying everybody, every guy gets that moment when a friend hands them the box of old porn, right? And one of the tapes was incest porn. Does that ever happen to you? No, good. Just to be clear, just to be clear, These were all grownups. It was like the 22-year-old daughter, right? But then you're like, oh, Jesus, it's dad. And I'm like, well, I'll just mute it.
01:46:03
Speaker
No, I need to immediately immediately address this. This video is insane. i don't know how I've never seen this. Isn't it? Okay, so like Ben Mankiewicz is obviously a co-star of one of the best viral videos of all time, which um obviously I'm referring to Dick Tracy zooms in. Doesn't this kind of give Dick Tracy zooms in a run for its money a little?
01:46:25
Speaker
Might be better. Might be better. It's one of the all-time, like, what I see in this clip, right? What I see in Ben Mankiewicz trying so hard is like somebody who's like,
01:46:38
Speaker
believes in their bit. You know, somebody who's like, and only just i need to push it just a little harder. You know, if I explain it just a little more, be fun. Because he keeps going. He's digging himself just like deeper and deeper. he is like Because without sound, it's just porn. And then by the time he's like, he explains like, you know, you get a box of porn from a friend, there's incest porn. Because that everyone else, he's completely hanging out with but he's alienated everyone at this point. Because it's like, I'm like,
01:47:06
Speaker
That doesn't happen. what are you talking about? Well, who's your friend who's got incest porn? Why are you going like, I got Billy, you know, you gave me his porn and incest. Also, outside of 40 year old virgin, people aren't giving each other boxes of porn. I don't think I don't think that happens now because of the Internet. and So there's no reason to do that.
01:47:30
Speaker
We're talking about a Mankiewicz here, you know? So, like, you know, Mankiewicz, I believe, you know, is just like. Oh, no. he teach he's watch He's watched it analog. He's like old. Yeah. Like, so that's that's like, like, wow. That is Herman style.
01:47:44
Speaker
That is talking about Turner classic movies. Like you're watching you're just watching the the the classics there. Early Sly Sloan pictures, if you know what I mean. Yeah.
01:47:59
Speaker
Wow. ah it's It's kind of Matt Johnson-esque in terms of like yeah the he's not even aware that how bad this is coming across. the the he just Which, I guess that was off mic or we hadn't started recording yet. when ah So Matt Johnson does do Blackface. so yes Yeah, so we got we gotta to talk about that. We haven't even talked about that yet, actually. Yeah, the perfect point, Doug. Yes, let's talk about it. What movie was he referencing when he did that? That wasn't Mel, because...
01:48:29
Speaker
Like, I don't i don't know what what that what that was. But in the totality of his body of work, there's, in character, he says really horrible shit a lot. Yes. It kind of is perfect for this movie for a character that is not clocking...
01:48:51
Speaker
like the the severity of what they're doing and then goes on to commit like a really, really horrible thing. Like, so it's like, it's almost like that the the seeds are there.
01:49:01
Speaker
Like mostly when it's like Nevada, the band, the show and Matt says something horrible, it's like, It's not harmless, but you were able to laugh because you're like, oh, this guy's just so clueless and stupid. You know, like yeah that that's that's the character. But here in the totality of the context, it's like like almost foreshadowing.
01:49:21
Speaker
This is where I'll say like at least a Matt Johnson doesn't come across like a person like Quentin Tarantino, right? Because like Quentin Tarantino, he's like, how can I as a white guy say the N-word? You know, like that's his whole shtick sometimes, right? And with Matt Johnson, at least in this film, as you're alluding to, – school shooter who doesn't understand reality doing like jazz singer style like really old-timey racist too right like like this guy probably would have 4chan or 4chan adjacent sense of humor you know so like which includes like very sense unfortunately for the era too so he's making fun of this type of guy which is what he's doing in his other comedy when he has care and like it's usually not full-on blackface but
01:50:05
Speaker
I was thinking about it the web series where he's like, this reminds me of my favorite Bill Cosby quote where he's like, I love Asian pussy. I have to be honest with you. I've never seen the miniseries. I've only seen the TV show. It's not as good as the TV show, but it's like the German. Oh, imagine. The germs of it are there. And then also like the through line of like all the pop culture stuff is like they do so many recreate so many different openings. They do like the wire and I try to remember all the other ones, like the kind stuff from the show and like recreating the opening with the Nirvana, the band. So like all that's like the seeds of it are there.
01:50:41
Speaker
I knew that much. I knew that it was like still the show, right? In many ways, like that's pretty much what the show is, right? You have right a overarching like reference point. That's going to be the thing that they keep marketing back to in regards to them trying to play at the Rivoli.
01:50:57
Speaker
um So it's like, that's that's not really something that's going to, be messed up every time you do it. It's a very classic bit. Although although the references in the in the web series are almost more incidental, whereas like you said, there's like a through line of like, it's like, it's key to like the plot of this of the episode, the reference point, which if you've ever seen interviews with him, is almost seems like it's a legal strategy because his interpretation of of fair use, because I feel like a lot of legality of of like, you know, his clip use and like copyright material, they don't ask for permission for anything. Typically, it's at least in the Nirvana, of the band, the show, like from the the web series. Oh, and the Dirties too.
01:51:42
Speaker
Yeah, to all of that. So he like he he says that like fair use, if you make it integral to like the story, then that's okay. But I still don't know that that's always true. So like, you know, the people listening who are going to maybe make their own film, like, don't know, maybe get a good lawyer. like let Let me put a finer point on it because let me put a finer point on it because I can come at this from like the perspective of Matt Johnson, you know, trying to do this a little because because like let's think about it. Right.
01:52:11
Speaker
So like copyrighted material in a film. Right. Or a TV show, what have you. Right. It's not like a YouTube situation. Right. Where you put this thing out and for whatever reason, it finds out that you use that thing, content ID matches it and boom, you're done. Right. Right.
01:52:26
Speaker
Films are much more complicated than that. Let's totally rely on who sees it, right? And who takes issue with it and who decides to take action, right? And then, right, after all of those steps I just listed, right, which are themselves hurdles for somebody to stop somebody from doing something like Matt Johnson does in these things. Right.
01:52:45
Speaker
What he then does is he then takes the extra step to like have a legal defense for it, which in many cases, as you've alluded to he integrates these, ah you know, commercial IP aspects as integral parts of the story. Right.
01:52:59
Speaker
To the degree where it's like, OK, well, it's so intertwined with Daredevil. You can't take it out of the episodes. Right. And at that point, I've now changed the meaning of, you know, a daredevil reference. It's not just putting the daredevil stuff in there. I'm also parodying those things alongside with it. Right. Which said parody lies to also gives you extra ticks like protection. Yeah. yeah Exactly. so So he's not just like using copyright law. He's also using parody law in conjuncture with it to where he's changing the meaning of the media that was originally presented. Right.
01:53:33
Speaker
ah Which is where you can get things like in ah the dirties. He's just quoting Pulp Fiction beat for beat, plus having the poster. You know, there are moments where, you know, they're just hanging out in the basement and they're playing Mario Kart 64. Right. just like casually Right. and like you know watch watch any other independent canadian film any other independent canadian film there's no logos there's no you know if you there's a tv you never see what's on tv Canadian cinema specifically is so scared of doing this kind of shit.
01:54:07
Speaker
So scared of, you know, trying to, you know, steal in quotations or like, you know, go outside of the means. And then here comes Matt Johnson, who's shooting these things, very small cameras, you know, you know, consumer grade stuff and just showing reality as it exists for especially a lot of the people who exist within film spheres.
01:54:26
Speaker
That's why he's a valuable filmmaker. He's probably one of the most interesting Canadian filmmakers working today. And that's why we're covering him. So like, I'm glad that like the way we're starting this journey. Cause like, yeah, I, I love his stuff. I'm glad that I'm filling in these gaps. Cause yeah, the only movie movie I'd actually seen was, was Blackberry, but this, this is better than Blackberry journeys is definitely better. ah And I'm, I can't wait to see operation avalanche and ah yeah. Cause yeah.
01:54:56
Speaker
Yeah, he's he's it's just so it's it's bold filmmaking, but not just for the purposes of provocation or just like, no, like like the copyright stuff. Like he's just doing it to do it. Like, no, there's a point to all of it. And that's why he's a brilliant and I think an important artist. I mean, yeah, like by the time he gets a BlackBerry.
01:55:16
Speaker
they're paying for the license for all the, those songs, but that's like a bigger production with like actual, like, you know, act actors and stuff. I'm very curious like what Nia, like, cause I've heard people say about like the movie of like, I don't, and some of these are probably people who've never seen the show who are like shocked at like, I don't know how this movie got released in terms like, how are they using all this, this stuff? So, because this is getting a a fairly wide release, you know, compared compared to like something like
01:55:48
Speaker
this or, you know, Operation Avalanche. Neon's putting it out. Neon's putting this movie Neon's putting it out. So they're also, like, it's being seen by more people. So all those hurdles we talked about of, like, you know, someone has to know that the copyright thing is being even being used in the first place. Like, it increases, the likelihood of that increases, like, the more ah you put it out. So I'm just very curious, like, Neon just has good lawyers. I don't know. who Maybe they're just like, yeah, they stand by it. Here,
01:56:17
Speaker
Like, look, I'll even go a step further and talk about the film itself because I had seen a um interview, right? About so like, do you care about spoiler? Like this, this might be a spoiler, actually. Maybe I shouldn't say this. Like, should I say this or not, Doug?
01:56:31
Speaker
Specific location. It's about a specific location that they filmed in for the movie. I'd say, I'd say, hold off. we We can talk about it when we do when we do the movie. we we can We can get into that.
01:56:42
Speaker
Fair enough. We'll not put the cart before the horse because, like, there is a there's a scene that they shot within the film that, like, if I were to describe that, I feel like it would hopefully put some of these things to bed. My larger point, what I was going to make, is that, like, it's not just the copyright laws. It's the parody laws. And then it's also a lot of, like,
01:57:02
Speaker
ownership laws over like the footage itself right being able to capture these things in certain spaces right like this movie like ah a lot of Nirvana the band the show you don't get this lot in the dirties but in Nirvana the band the show they're in like out and about the public of Toronto you know just shooting the thing and then there is absolutely no way that they got permits for any of these things right they just did it and And in any standard Canadian production, it's paperwork hell to to be anywhere. you normally have a release sign just to do even other stuff that's like, you know, ah combining real people and stuff. Like you even see a Nathan for you when he's getting people to sign the release forms. I don't know that there's any of that. hand I don't think that's happening in Matt Johnson's. No. Yeah.
01:57:49
Speaker
No, it's not like it's probably happening for like the people that they get for like a quick second. Maybe, you know, like the people who don't have their faces blurred out. Like the people who have actual lines, you know, like the guy on the on the street of one episode was like ah who like they give like ah a two dollars to or something. He's like, you made it, bro. He's like on the phone and stuff like maybe that probably that guy maybe be signed a release. i don't know. I would think of somebody like later in the season two, I believe, where they that go to like the the Toronto library. Right. And they're like talking to the people who work at the library. Right. Right. Get those people to sign. Right. They wouldn't get like, you know, fucking random person on the street. They bump into while shooting the scene who ends up saying something. They wouldn't get them to release the form. Right. They wouldn't worry about that. They would just blur out their face or, you know, creatively shoot it in a certain way to where that won't be a
01:58:39
Speaker
the case in the final edit. What we're talking about here, and to kind of round out this Matt Johnson conversation, I think i feel, is that he's not afraid to like test the boundaries of what is normally okay in a way that's not dangerous to the people that he's working with. Right. He's playing around with the form in a sense that is ah welcoming to the individual, because at the end of the day, he's out on the street shooting these things. You know, he's amongst the public and in no way is he making fun of the public. Instead, he's bringing him into his fiction.
01:59:13
Speaker
And that's where I think that Matt Johnson is far more ethical than, let's say, a Sacha Baron Cohen, where he's going to, the absolutely you know, he's You know, he's like, you know, making fun of their culture. Right. Instead, Matt Johnson, he's like, I'm from here. I'm making these things ah with these people here. They may not even know that they're in the movie, but I'm never going to make them the butt of the joke.
01:59:35
Speaker
It's about like how I'm the butt of the joke. You know, he's the butt of the joke. And then it also just feels like he's. Without them knowing it because art is collaborative, you know, it's a collaborative thing. So he's just like, you're now part of something bigger. ah It's it's also it's a more ethical version of hit show record.
01:59:59
Speaker
Yeah. Speaking of which, fucking Joseph Gordon-Levitt was ah fucking advocating for Internet censorship in America the other day. Which is crazy. um you know Don John, how could you? bla He's the only one who gets to watch porn.
02:00:16
Speaker
but But um when it comes to um Matt Johnson and the way that he is doing this, I think it's one of the great um advantages. To being not only an onscreen personality, but the director, right?
02:00:30
Speaker
To in the moment, like not only are you, you know, shaping the scene as a filmmaker, but you're also an active participant in the sequence. To be able to like have a literal conversation with the person that you're trying to coax something out of to make it happen. Because like imagine like ah a Ron Howard, you know, trying to get a performance out of a Chris Hemsworth. He's sitting behind the camera, you know, ah you know, between takes they talk maybe during the take. He says a few things. Right. With Matt Johnson, he's in the scene. It's a part of the scene.
02:01:01
Speaker
He's like, you know, using basic human psychology to kind of like lead the conversations in ways that will know to be funny. Right. And again, it's not in service to like make these people look stupid. It's just to literally flesh out the thing that he's already trying to accomplish pre-established within the established world that he's doing for like an episode or for a movie, what have you. Right. That's why I think he's so cool.
02:01:22
Speaker
You know, that's a cool thing to do as
Anticipation for Upcoming Films
02:01:24
Speaker
a filmmaker. He's the fucking man. Like I'm. Yeah. Yeah. All this is just, I'm so excited for, for, for the movie and I can't wait till I'm excited to cover everything leading up to that. But like this, it's, it's funny to have like one of my most anticipated movies of the year ha happening like so early in the year.
02:01:43
Speaker
And you know what? It's great that they come earlier. You know, I hate having to wait until like September or October to watch all of the good shit. I want to have like evenly placed throughout the year, you know, you know, they'll take a little bit of this, a little bit of that. Why does it have to be at the ah October? we We don't have that short of memories. People joke about that all the time. I remember a good movie I watched from February and February the next year.
02:02:06
Speaker
Well, and then stereotypically, you know, this is supposed to be like, you know, the desert of, you know, like quality stuff. But actually this weekend's like, ah yeah, obviously Nirvana the Band, the show, the movies, and numbers number one, New Gore Verbinski starring my boy stamp yeah Sam. Sam Rockwell's going to be in a good movie again. Get that argyle taste out of your mouth. And then. in peace, Catherine O'Hara. yeah our rp and then also um crime 101 i think is that chris hembrich's movie it's from the i don't know if you ever saw good uh american animals is is is that the i never saw that one but that's one of those like early letterbox movies i feel you know like would always see the poster and people are like that's a good one and i'm likes ah I remember it being quite good because it like plays plays with the like biopic thing because like it'll be like you're seeing the drama. I mean, i guess other things do this where you see the dramatization and the real guy, but the way they intercut it and then and sometimes have the footage contradict each other is very interesting.
02:03:09
Speaker
American Animals? did i is that what I don't think he's in this one. No, it's like Evan Peters, Barry Keoghan. Oh, oh this is ah this is actually a killer cast.
02:03:20
Speaker
a Nary a army hammer in sight. there You've got an end out there. You're doing Yeah. Kevin, I need you to swallow that gum, Kevin.
02:03:33
Speaker
but that's That's what the dirties needed. It needed Matt Johnson to have a sequence with Ann Dowd, like tormenting him. You know he has an impression in his pocket, too, of it. that He could just like... Dude, pull it out. Come on. with bad crime Crime on one's cast is more stacked than I realized. Halle Berry, someone who like is not allowed to act normally. They like they they put a gate and put a gate around her house and they're like, no yes Unless it's Cloud Atlas, I don't want any part of it. Yeah, I guess after Catwoman and Gothica back to back, they just built a a wall around her. You know, forget the wall Mexico. An iron dome. They just built an iron dome around Allie Perry's house. Keanu will occasionally let her out and be like, hey do do a couple scenes John Wick 3, but then we'll never reference your character again. Another reason why I think that series is total bullshit, and I hate every John Wick except for the first one. The first one's like by and away the best one. I don't i don't hate it.
02:04:35
Speaker
I think they all suck. I'm being honest. I get where you're coming from. that It's 100% a thing that like shouldn't be a franchise, but of the things that shouldn't be franchised and get turned to franchises. don't know. There's something that I enjoy about the ah because the first one's like a pretty grounded you know like action other than a movie it's a good movie the only ridiculous ah like there's a hotel that assassins use but it's not like it's not looney tunes by the time you get to four we are in looney tunes world i kind of do like no no no no doug hold on let's go back there for a second by the time we get to two we're in looney tunes yeah Yeah, I mean, there's a funny good when he's having the silencer gunfight with Kamin and they're really in public. like it yeah It's pretty funny.
02:05:25
Speaker
don't know. Like, I enjoy them ah that way because it's like they're definitely it's not like unintentionally funny. They're playing into that. And and also Keanu is just like a good physical comedic uh like presence so he like he can pull off that stuff like he has to fall down a hundred flights of stairs like it's it's pretty good for me uh my problem is my my problem is is like when you get to the point where i no longer see the character and i see like the machinations of the filmmaker being like how cool would it be if blank right or like it When the story or reason has been removed entirely to the point where it's just all about the aesthetics, that's when I start to lose any kind of enjoyment.
02:06:04
Speaker
I need that connection with the people. And at the very least in John Wick, he had that fucking dog, you know, and and and everything that they try to do to make him feel like a ah real person in the other films going forward. always ring hollow, which is, I feel like they don't try other than like when they'll occasionally like in four, when they start, remember his, Oh, right. He has a dead wife. Let's invoke that to like a reason that he wants before the dog. Yeah. You're like, okay. Yeah. We'll we invoke that as to show why he's ready to die because of the wife. And like, but but be it's clear they forgot about that.
02:06:41
Speaker
Be like, oh fuck oh, right. He has a wife. Yeah. oh Yeah. That's what he's actually funny for, I think. um And then there's also the added layer where it's like, ah you know, it's similar to like Logan or like, you know, any other number of IP films I could list off where the fourth movie was so sold on like...
02:06:59
Speaker
We're killing him off. This is the last time you're ever going to see John Wick. We're done. We promise never, ever again will you see this character in any capacity. Ever. Not on my watch. We mean it this time. and Two years later. Bellarina wants to see her in the auditorium.
02:07:22
Speaker
yeah that was ah I think what's funny about that movie too is that like there were test screenings that were really bad for that one and then the ah the the the producers and were like we gotta put more Keanu in it so like even even the situation where they like you know oh okay we killed him off or whatever you know we're gonna try to you know strike it out on our own we're gonna do ballerina right they try that out and they're just like ah fuck well that didn't work yeah Keanu back in here you know They should just go full Saw and start doing sequels that take place between... i mean, because otherwise they're they just go full... I mean, I guess they've already gone full Reddit, but they go even Redditor... oh yeah. And be like, he he came back from hell. You know, like, that's that's the only other reason, the ah only other solution to undo his death because he he's he is dead at the end of all.
02:08:13
Speaker
So, like, you have to... Really, like just throw your hands up to walk that back. be Like, you guys don't care, right? And most people don't. But I would like him to stay dead because the Logan shit was very annoying.
02:08:28
Speaker
ah ah Fuck Deadpool and Wolverine. Yeah, fuck that movie. Fuck Sean Levy. Yeah, don't know. We got we got we got from a very good director and movie that I just started getting bummed when I thought about superhero stuff. All I wanted to say on the Sean Levy note was that Fall Guy is a good movie for the first two thirds.
02:08:52
Speaker
I don't it's a terrible movie. I think it's a good movie for the first two thirds. It becomes a terrible movie. Do you mean Free Guy is Sean Levy? Free Guy. Free Guy. That's what I meant. well I said Fall Guy, didn't i oh Yeah. so i was mix So Fall Guy is also big film.
02:09:09
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Right. but and And my thing with Fall Guy is that it so obviously needs to lean more into the romantic comedy elements. It is too hung up on the action elements. And and and the movie is like, what, two hours and like 10 minutes long? It's like it's it's bloated. Yeah. It doesn't need to be that long. It doesn't need to like be... It oversees its welcome so much. And the action itself doesn't lean enough into... like The fun of if you have Ryan Gosling is that he's...
02:09:38
Speaker
usually willing to be completely egoless and like do the buffoon thing like he'll be he'll yeah debase himself physically for our enjoyment so you should have him flailing around yeah like yes he's a professional stuntman but when the action starts he's just like ready for action and that's boring like he should be fumbling and like sloppy and like fucking up what What does a stuntman do but take hits, right? A stuntman needs to like sell when like a character falls out of a car and tumbles, right? And instead, what we're supposed to imagine Ryan Gosling is doing in these feats of action is like successfully pulling these things off because he's the best, right? I've already seen the serious version of him as a badass stuntman. It's called Drive. So like, dude, go the opposite. go the opposite direction and make him like ridiculous fully i mean he he's funny in the movie but the action isn't funny so like that's the problem exactly the action is played entirely straight and then like it's just the asides that are supposed to be funny this is why the john wick filmmakers are not good filmmakers this is why bullet train sucks is because like they have no dial on like how to actually make a good movie and and i'm gonna be honest I would say the other guy has slightly more juice than David Leitch.
02:10:56
Speaker
The one Chad. I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it. I think that John Wick was an accident. I think that John Wick was a mistake in terms of like they don't understand what they had when they did it. And I think that every film that they've made since then individually, you know, there have been good parts of them.
02:11:13
Speaker
But at no point have they ever made good movies since then. I want to defend Atomic Blonde, but then I only really remember the handful of like cool parts where I'm like, yeah, it was really cool when she fought that really big guy for five minutes.
02:11:26
Speaker
Because it's all, it's the same shtick. It's all action, right? No, I care about her character of, want to say it. I really like that scene where she talked to John Goodman.
02:11:39
Speaker
Look, I forgot he's in this movie. ah and Toby Jones is fucking in this movie. What the fuck? ah David Lynch's ah late great muse.
02:11:50
Speaker
Yeah. ah ah The character of Lorraine Broughton. How can we forget? Lorraine Broughton. all yeah All the stars are here. know?
02:12:06
Speaker
That's the thing, right? is that there's like They're not good filmmakers and John Wick was like it had all the structural elements for a good film and then like the elements that as filmmakers they decided to expand upon were like the least interesting things about John Wick.
02:12:22
Speaker
Right. And the only reason, the only reason that people still go back to bat for John Wick and the is king k for John Wick before. No, it's not that it's the Buster Keaton references. It's this hearkening to stunt people as like people who are like, I didn't mean to put that in quotations to, to mean some people, I mean like stunt people in terms of like the artistry of stunt people. We got to take them seriously. ah You know, like, which I support, but I get what you're saying. Yeah. that it it There's no story.
02:12:51
Speaker
There's no story. Because normally the stunt people when you don't have the story. The stunts are in service of a larger thing, even in the Buster Keaton stuff when it's all for gags. Like there is a larger thing.
02:13:02
Speaker
Exactly. Right. If you lose sight of that. Right. Because like Buster Keaton movies, when you watch a Buster Keaton movie, you're like, wow, all these amazing stunts. And then there's a great love story. Right. Like and then I'm like, oh, wow. And then you also have the meta narrative of where he was in his life when you're like, oh, he didn't care if he lived or died when that house off. I actually preferred if the house fell on me, you know, like, is louis come on, I want you to hit me. Come on, come on, do it. Come on. Reference number two to the dark night. See if we can get a third in by the end of somehow reference joke, the dark night during the pit.
02:13:38
Speaker
Uh, so, ah yeah. Do we have anything else to, on dirties before we transition to, ah the Yeah, like let's round it out for sure. ah Because, like, as I said before, like, i have a deep connection to this movie just personally, just based on the time I saw it and, like, understanding who Matt Johnson is as a filmmaker. ah Like, to be able to have seen ah the kind of trajectory that he's taken as a filmmaker, you know, watching this movie and then being excited for Operation Avalanche before it came out and then being like, oh, Nirvana, the band's show is coming, you know, like, It's been wonderful to watch him grow as a filmmaker, but separate from all of that conversation, to come back to the dirties, separate from all of that context and just to appreciate this as its own film. It was wonderful to like fall back in love again. The fact that the film stands up on its own, that it's not just, you know, a great found footage film. It's not just a great school shooting film, but it's actually just like a good artistic achievement for somebody at that right level. Right. for somebody who has something to say at like whatever age they were at when they made it.
02:14:43
Speaker
It's just a worthy film. It's like, i'm I'm rewatching this, not elephant. Gus Van Sant suck a dick. Hey, you know, maybe we're two different kinds of freaks because I do love Gus Van Santel. No, no, no. I think I think he's I'm just being being provocative. I mean, I know do like this. I do like this better than elephant. But like I'm not saying that that invalidates the Gus Van Sant. I think he should remake another Hitchcock movie. Or remake Psycho again. Don't do a different... No, no, no, no. Wrong, wrong, wrong. deug you're wrong. ah Gus Van Sant needs to remake the Dirties shot for shot. That's what happens next.
Vince Vaughn Films and Upcoming Projects
02:15:24
Speaker
With Vince Vaughn as Matt Johnson.
02:15:28
Speaker
Oh, I would love that. Imagine Vince Vaughn like doing the Malkovich part of this movie. He would commit. You know he'd commit. yeah We're under utilizing him.
02:15:41
Speaker
come on Come on, people. Speaking of Canadian films, I need to bring this up because it's one of my favorite film rabbit holes to go down. Do you know the Vince Vaughn film, The Delivery Man?
02:15:54
Speaker
Yeah, where he like ah donated a lot of sperm and then he finds out he has all those kids. It's like kind of a true story, right? Did you know that it's a remake of a French Canadian film?
02:16:06
Speaker
and No, I did not know that. And did you know that the name of that original film was called Starbuck? but I did not know that. ah Like when when it comes to the remake versus the original, I have to say Delivery Man is a strangely like close remake. They didn't change much in adaptation, which is very strange because also Starbuck is a very strange movie. like the fact I just like the poster is just him like doing like the Kevin James shrug and there's just like a bunch of kids around him. He's just like, I like to come. Yeah, like funny.
02:16:43
Speaker
Fucking 20 kids, like 30 kids he has in that movie. It's nuts. That is vaguely like based off a real guy, right? Like the is the original movie, like kind of inspired by a true story.
02:16:56
Speaker
They always say those kinds of things. Kind of like in horror movies when they're like, this is real. Demons are real. Yeah. And Gein, right? Like, need I say more, right? But like, ah in terms of like this story, I have done no reading on this. I'm okay to eat crow on this, right? But like, when you tell me that somebody like fathered these many kids and stuff like that, and they adapted into a film, right? I hear like 30 in this film, more than that, maybe, right? In my mind, I'm like, oh, and if this happened in real life, it's maybe like 10, 15, like half of Yeah. So is... ridiculous It sounds like Starbuck just took the composite idea of prolific sperm donors because that's a thing that happens. That's what I'm thinking. Like, hey, wouldn't it be crazy you had that many guys? If you get all in one place. if you If you get, like, meet them all, you know, like
02:17:51
Speaker
Yeah. And I feel like in reality, it would kind of almost there is I've never donated sperm, but I know like, yes, there's like paperwork and stuff involved. But like being able to track all of them, that sounds impossible. Like you would. Right.
02:18:06
Speaker
Like, how would you know? yeah All this is telling me, Doug, is that we need to do a full episode on Starbuck and Delivery Man because ah count me in. That sounds like a good time to me. like I love talking Vince Vaughn. I love talking weird French Canadian shit. Let's do it.
02:18:21
Speaker
Yeah, and then we'll do Dragged Across Concrete as a part of our S. Craig Zoller series. got balance it out. You got to zig and zag, you know? got to talk about, like, good conservative art. You got to zag. What's what's so what's the zag man up to? let's see what's next i think he's got a co-writing credit coming up, actually. Ironically enough, ah you brought him up. Like, there's there was some project that was announced recently. Oh, yes, yes. it was It's just your old Butler, Hayley Atwell, D.
02:18:53
Speaker
movie where it follows a firefighter who's like an ex-soldier and is in a crucible. that's a different movie. That's not the Jarl Butler one. found a different movie. That sounds good. ah But this one's called Empire City. So Jarl Butler's a firefighter who's like an ex-marine and his and NYPD wife, who's Hayley Atwell, will fight navigate through a landmark building to rescue hostages during a crisis. And it's co-written by Zal.
02:19:17
Speaker
I got to tell you about but the frontier crucible, which I just discovered. This looks like a fake movie, just like looking at the trailer. I'm going to read you the plot synopsis. Then I'm going to tell you three actors who are in this movie, a former soldier with a tragic past is thrown into an uneasy and alliance with three outlaws, a beautiful woman and her injured husband to battle the harsh elements and hostiles in a desperate bid to for survival in the Arizona of 1870s. So yeah, you can tell it's probably going to be Okay. pretty racist Are you a psychic because Arnie Hammer is in this?
02:19:51
Speaker
Yeah, I was about to say Arnie Hammer is in this movie and then fucking William H. Macy and Thomas Jane are in this movie, which I think is like the trifecta of a grab bag, you know? This is out now. We could watch this.
02:20:05
Speaker
that Next episode. Okay, no, that's what it is. It's it's Starbuck and Delivery Man. And then Frontier Crucible. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The episode everybody's been asking for. There's movies that don't exist and then
Criticism of Conservative Films
02:20:22
Speaker
there's this. Like, this is like... This exists less than...
02:20:27
Speaker
Like those conservative ah fucking ah Daily Wire movies. Like those exist more than this. This is like S. Craig Zoller completionist purgatory to the degree where you'll put be put on a watch list for it. You know, even in Trump's America, you know, somebody is looking at that and going like, that's a sign of extremism.
02:20:52
Speaker
There's a lot of Apache in the cast list. I think they're going to be the new ah develop depicted with a lot of nuance. No, I love i love i love his hawkin todd i love his work.
02:21:03
Speaker
I love his work. right He probably felt it was like when he wrote Bone Tomahawk and he's like, what if I have the exposition about the cannibalistic tribe delivered by a native who's like a professor and he's like respectable and dressed nicely. And then he was like, just, he's like, I saw, I'm so fucking smart.
02:21:21
Speaker
No one will have any problems with this. He said it himself. Why, why would you get mad at me? Because he said it. He said the other tribes don't even really count them as native. So it like, it's like, why are you mad at me? I, he said it.
02:21:37
Speaker
It's, it's not on me. It's get mad at him. with The guy I made up, you know, laughter laughter Man, I would love to do S. Craig Zoller. He'd be hilarious. guide to but i've seen like pretty like I'll be honest, I've probably seen every film that he's written.
02:21:56
Speaker
I've seen Asylum Blackout. I've seen The Puppet Master. The only movie of his that he's written I have not seen is The Frontier Crucible. got for Oh, and it says in parentheses uncredited IMDb. Oh, no. It's that bad. He was like, nah, I'm good.
02:22:14
Speaker
Yeah. He's like, I need that paycheck. I need it. So it's been seven years. i haven't made a movie. like That's funny. Oh.
Dark Humor and Closing Remarks
02:22:43
Speaker
$15 from the sale of every ticket tonight is going to fight the Iraq war. And people will be like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And we're like, and they're ready to kick it into a full fucking metal song after this, because I'm going say, and when we mean fight, we mean fucking kill some fucking Iraqis.