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The Leftovers Season 3
34 Plays3 days ago
Doug and Tony finally close the book on The Leftovers. Do they stick the landing? Is this Lindelof's magnum opus? What do the Dove's represent!!?? Find out the answer to all these and more as we wrap up coverage on one of the greatest shows ever made.
Also, on the subject of post apocalyptic worlds, Doug & Tony speculate on the future of the film industry in the wake of the Netflix acquisition of Warner Bros.
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Transcript
00:00:16
Speaker
Yeah.
End of Cinema Coverage & Film Industry Decline
00:00:17
Speaker
Yeah. So Tony walked in on me, just bawling my eyes out. And it's clear because, you know, this is the end of the road for our leftovers coverage. But then it's also it's also the end of cinema. So, you know, if we want to talk about that for a little bit you know, just just this way you just just want to vent for a little bit. i don't know. We're holding space for that.
00:00:42
Speaker
ah so this is this podcast where we try and hold space for important film industry. We're going to do land acknowledgments for where the studio lots are or for. And this is where Yakko, Wacko and Dot lived. And it's like, yeah, they they put down. They've been executed.
00:01:05
Speaker
Yep. Gun, just gun down in the back of
Media Consolidation & Industry Disruption
00:01:08
Speaker
their head. Well, if you will keep saying like, oh, if the deal goes through, it's going to happen. Like, why? Who's going to stop them? I don't know. Like, and like well, look, it's, it's, it's either God or it's Paramount. Right. and And we've got the Ellisons in charge of Paramount. Yeah. And i would really rather. They don't even they don't even have Taylor Sheridan anymore, i think. are ah Or he might be finishing because I can't kick I don't watch Yellowstone. I'm not a father, so I can't watch that yet. That's a that's a joke Scott Ackerman makes where he's like, I yeah, as soon as I became a dad, I watched all of Yellowstone.
00:01:44
Speaker
Yeah. I think that's a prerequisite. Yeah, no. Taylor Sheridan, I feel like his
Streaming vs Theatrical Releases
00:01:50
Speaker
own force. He can just do whatever. Paramount, it it was kind of hitched to specific kinds of properties, and they've had a long string of bombs. So I feel like anybody who hitches their w wagon to Paramount at this point, it's a losing streak. Like the biggest moneymaker was from...
00:02:09
Speaker
like you know you're like they don't have that star anymore he went to warner brothers almost so maybe that's uh is this like all is it all about tom i think is if you zoom out enough no i'm cow kidding It's actually about the theatrical experience, really. It's well, it goes towards the theatrical experience every time. And then it ends up being bought out or another financial incentive undercuts the market in another direction.
Consolidation Concerns & Creative Freedom
00:02:39
Speaker
It's never been about the trends of where audiences have been. They point to the audience trends after they make the changes and go see attendances down. after They're not going to theaters because they don't exist. So that proves our point.
00:02:53
Speaker
Oh, we like we've we've caused it. So it's like there's this weird disparity in volume. So there's this large price increase between like what's at home in quotations versus what's in theaters to the point now where it's like those the idea of what's a movie in theaters versus what's a movie at a home has been blurred so much to where that's even become a debate. Like, look, I don't think it's a good idea to have less competition in the sense of, you know,
00:03:20
Speaker
We should have more freedom in terms of artists being able to have different places to escape to rather than only having to go to a couple of
Netflix's Business Model & Industry Impact
00:03:28
Speaker
places. And I think that's the major concern with Netflix buying at Warner Brothers.
00:03:33
Speaker
Worse than even like any kind of death of the theatrical experience question itself. Just the conversation. We're headed towards like two three companies owning all media you know like it's it's like this stuff is already owned by there's a handful of billionaires that own all the media but like you know why there give us give us at least more billionaires to choose from who's gonna fund these movies And it's it's fascinating because I don't think that it's like this industry has been in this position before where instead of being bought out by other film studios, all of those different studios are just tech companies, right? Like that was really like Amazon, even yeah something of a tech company that's major in the film industry now. Yeah.
00:04:19
Speaker
Like, and what you're saying there, that language of disruptor, the idea of like, oh we're going to come in there, we're going to shake things up. That's exactly what all of this is. I think at the end of the day, long road, you know, like just looking at the way that Netflix's business models designed,
00:04:34
Speaker
I don't see longevity there. So for me, like, the only way for them to continue to make the profit that they have been making is just this asset acquired accumulation over time. Like any other, you know, capitalist late-stage situation, that's the only only way to truly make money after. Right. it's It's in their best financial interest to not fuck with really anything that was, like, being made. Like, like some people I mean...
Monopolies & Creativity
00:05:01
Speaker
i mean It's so telling the people whose first thing we're like, oh, no, the DCU. yeah So... ah i so I haven't looked for it because I don't look for these people, but our our Snyder bros like the ones who are like in the there's tears. There's tears to it. There's a casual appreciator. There's someone who's like maybe does that vulgar auteur like Michael Bay, like appreciation of them. And then there's you don mean you have like the the pure psychosis where you're just like in another reality. Those people were memeing about, I think they wanted Netflix to buy Warner Brothers like last year. it was months ago. And they were like, and this is how, you know, like, here here's how he can still win. yeah
00:05:45
Speaker
yeah exactly. He's like the the the keys guy. You remember when he got to the election, he had the keys. But yeah, no, the the thing about...
00:05:55
Speaker
Like, I don't know what they're saying, obviously, but like ah hearing that kind of narrative, it obviously speaks to their motivation where it's all just like spite driven. They don't care about like what monopolies mean or what this will incur upon not just even the audience, but like the people who make these movies, how
Tech Influence on Film Industry
00:06:14
Speaker
everything is just going to get even worse than it already has.
00:06:17
Speaker
ah You know, people always talk about how movies have gotten worse And I don't think that movies get worse. I think that the conditions that movies get made can change. And the yeah thing that's getting worse is the means in which they can be made in a financially stable ecosystem. It's not even because there's a lack of demand, mind you. It's because the people who are at the very top are making really poor decisions over and over again. and it's get Because they're tech bros.
00:06:45
Speaker
Yeah, exactly. They're trying to be. They're trying to be. Right. Right. I mean, like even the successful versions of what they like, they think they're Mark Zuckerberg and even, but you kind of don't want to be him. So like, why is that?
00:07:03
Speaker
Why is that the goal? Yeah. like about Every time he does like ah a keynote press conference, Mark Zuckerberg gets like memed in a really terrible way. But you do not want to be in that position where not only are you making those decisions, you're also the punching bag. That is a lot of weight to put on your shoulders for an unnecessary reason. And the only reason that you do that is for egotistical purposes.
00:07:27
Speaker
And that's why I think we should go easy on Elon. He's very sensitive. No, I'm kidding. Fucking roast his ass. K-hole. Let him fit and rotten there. it's That's like a body whore thing. I'm not trying to body shame anyone. that's um i that I don't do that. But I'm just saying, just like objectively, if you study the arc of of him physically, it's it's there's something going on there in terms of he's morphing into something.
00:07:54
Speaker
Cronenbergian.
Cultural Narratives & Industry Resilience
00:07:55
Speaker
he kind of He kind of looks like, for any Donkey Kong Country fans out there, he kind of looks like King K. Rool, the lizard reptilian villain from that game.
00:08:07
Speaker
With his very old chest. Yeah, yeah. And you don't want to get hit with that chest because it's like fucking solid. It's like trying to shoot Superman or something. You're going to have to play as Diddy Kong if that happens. If you're Diddy Kong immediately.
00:08:24
Speaker
Man, I love Donkey Kong Country. what of the best series. Has to be, hands down. ah But but but maybe maybe that's a good thing that will come of this. Think about all of the crossovers that could happen. That's like that's the whole world can be in the next Space Jam.
00:08:38
Speaker
I still don't like I know the memes of it, but what is it? It's like a young adult romance, like rom-comedy thing.
Streaming's Impact on TV & Film
00:08:47
Speaker
Like, yeah. I've never watched it. I couldn't tell you what it's really about. But she's tall.
00:08:53
Speaker
Yeah, she's in high school and she's tall and that's kind of weird. And if I if i remember correctly, Sabrina Carpenter is in it. Oh, okay. Going back to her TV roots because she was on like the Boy Meets. I never watched. I really never watched Boy Meets World, but I definitely didn't watch the spinoff Girl Meets World. She was, I think, the titular girl. Yeah.
00:09:13
Speaker
You know, I don't know if this is just like speaks to some weird bias I had growing up, but when I was a kid and there was the option of like kids shows, cartoons versus kids show live action. I always went with the cartoons. Why wouldn't I go with the cartoons?
00:09:29
Speaker
You know? Yeah. I think funnier you're better off that way, but sometimes they're just programmed. They're bunched together, you know, and then programming blocks. Yeah.
Nostalgia & Foreign TV Influence
00:09:38
Speaker
You catch some of the other ones. And then but over here, we would get weird imports of like, now I know that's a thing as as as a seasoned TV watcher where it's like, oh, these are the sci-fi shows that are made in Canada. even I don't just mean like for the sci-fi channel. Like there's like, the like you know, mid budget to lower, yeah ah you know, ah no no stars in it. and but But it's like cheap sets. Yeah. Yeah.
00:10:07
Speaker
uh they can pass Toronto they're they're in maybe that maybe it's not said in can't you know just like oh the Toronto's Chicago now I don't know they'll just say it's another city so it it could be anywhere and uh I forgot I was going with this point show some of those shows are good what what was the comparison I was making the property me I don't know I was excited to hear what kind of Canadian shows you'd watch going up in this circumstance because Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh because there was kid versions of that. Like ah there's this random one called like the Zach files where it was just like a young, young adult, like X files. And I even hadn't even watched X files that point. So it's just like a weird, a kid solving weird things. And i'm like, oh, okay, that's cool. so I feel like Canada, like there was a situation where sometimes a show wouldn't work in America, but then we would just like get the rights for it and they would just play the same like failed season of television for like a couple of years. I remember that as a kid where it was like –
00:11:11
Speaker
Why are we watching this? There isn't more episodes. Like, I forget examples of this, but they were like spinoffs of Transformers and things like that that just failed. And what would happen is our television networks would just loop those for years.
00:11:24
Speaker
Yeah.
Future of Film Industry & Opportunities
00:11:25
Speaker
um Sorry, i started thinking about the, that you know, Warner Brothers again, but that that's not the the whole episode. I just, you know,
00:11:34
Speaker
in It broke. Yeah. Right. Right before. i mean, not right before. It's been like a day pretty much. But like that's what we've been stewing on before coming into this. And i feel like that informs how we see the world now. You know, it's different. Things are different now. What what I will say like on this is like it's very easy to be doom and gloom and like honestly there's a lot of reason to be. But people will still keep making movies no matter what. And it's just going to be a lot harder. um
00:12:05
Speaker
The main question is going to be if better alternatives can arise over time. And if this consolidation of power in American cinema is not so much like a massive power pull, but rather a signifying of its collapse, like if if if the latter is true, then I think that, you know, there is opportunity that can come from that. But if this is just going to be something where it. Yeah, I am a bit of ah an accelerationist in that sense of like, OK, well, then we get the new, new high. Hollywood, you know, like, like, exactly we just got to burn it all down first.
00:12:46
Speaker
Burn it down to the ground. If you are an accelerationist, like this is kind of what you would want. Like, like at least in like five or so years, this is going to work out great for you. If you're in that position, you know, but it's like for for me personally, you know, it's going to be tough for people, you know, like people are going to lose their jobs because of the Yes. like This is going to be a really this is going to make things even tighter. l a is going to become even more vacant than it already has. ah Yeah. Because they've already been just like any other city where they get better tax rate.
International Filming Incentives
00:13:22
Speaker
mean, we were talking about stuff in Canada, but now Eastern Europe is like hot, you know, like so much shit is shot over there.
00:13:28
Speaker
Yeah. he He had a cheap, like, Romanian film going. It's in the bag. Come on. ah I think that's where they're shooting the new Zack Greger Resident Evil movie, you know? ah they should be set in Romania. That'd be cool.
00:13:42
Speaker
Yeah, right? Like, maybe maybe ah maybe they can bump into Uwe Boll be like a ah ah crossover with House of the Dead. ah Yeah, like me personally, I haven't been like too worried about this merger in the sense of letting it occupy my mind in
Creative Collaboration & Freedom
00:13:58
Speaker
this way. It is doom and gloom, but like my my main focus is like, it hopefully we can find a way that artists can prevail out of anything, you know, and hopefully that like as this stuff is going to continue to happen, it's inevitable no matter what anybody does, artists can find a way to stick together and move past those things.
00:14:18
Speaker
Well, well, well put. I think and that that that's a good spirit of ig not you acknowledging the bad, but it that there is, you know, hope going forward. And I feel like that mindset translates like one-on-one directly to leftovers in terms of ah see um these segues I'm doing. I'm like anything.
00:14:43
Speaker
Yeah, it was seamless. But that's what all these characters kind of but have to have some acceptance about the reality it is. But then it's not, i would say even the character, you know, some full, full spoilers now for leftover season three, but like even the characters that we, that, that die, ah you know, like Matt, you know, we know succumb to the cancer at one point, but it's like, I don't, that doesn't sound like it's, he was, the,
00:15:14
Speaker
you know, he was
TV Series Analysis: Fan Service & Closure
00:15:15
Speaker
like loved. There are a lot of people at his, it's not presented in a, there's, there's no like sad send off for really any, even there's one character you think they are going to do that for. and then like, no, okay. She didn't. Okay, good, good, good. Yeah.
00:15:29
Speaker
Yeah, I'm glad that they they didn't go in that direction for that character. And we'll get to that character if I if i think I know who you're talking about correctly. But the the the main thing with this season is, well, like i like we're we're starting at the the front here. I feel like it's kind of interesting to just say that.
00:15:49
Speaker
This is like a really fan servicey season of television. Like a lot of this is meant to like conclude things in a tidy way for the ways that the fans engage with the show, not just like in how narratively it should all work. But that doesn't matter because the arcs matter more and the characters matter more. And and when it comes to this show in its own construction, you feel like Demon Lindelof is fighting off of his instincts from the first half of his life. And he's learning to like enter into a new mode with this show. like he's he's He's learning that the things that he used to carry so much importance and care and attention to, he realizes that he can just kind of let go of those things and not let them rock his life so much. The thing... Let the mystery be.
00:16:38
Speaker
the Exactly. the The show embodies that spirit by the end of I mean, he he said, like, during Losser, after success of that, he's like, I wouldn't have a career if it wasn't for David Lynch. And it's like, well, Twin Peaks, yeah, some stuff does get... There are storylines that have endings and answers, but...
00:16:58
Speaker
That's not why you're watching it, and you're not going to get all all of it. So, like, it's like, you you should understand that. That's kind of like the appeal, man. Like, you don't have to tell me all how all this works, because it's kind of more fun to, like, hash out the the mechanics of it on my own. Or, you know, you could...
00:17:17
Speaker
I'm thinking from the viewpoint, if I watch this singing, that only pure materialist in terms of only the physical world is real. All that supernatural and mumbo-jumbo. Kevin's just cuckoo. But now you have to keep adding people who are
Themes of Belief & Emotional Truth
00:17:31
Speaker
crazy. You're like, okay, well, then all they're all crazy then.
00:17:35
Speaker
Well, like, we'll we'll get into it as we go. But like, there has to be something. But by the end, it doesn't matter. By the end, like it could be anything. That's that's really it. There's no definitive answers for it. But it doesn't matter. Because what matters more is how these people can rationalize it and And the reason I keep bringing Lindelof into this is, and and you brought up Lynch earlier and to kind of meld the things together, like people knew Lindelof and to some extent Abrams as well as like the mystery box people, you know, like, like, oh, you're going to, you know, dangle this thing in front of our faces and, oh, is it going to be solved or not? And and the thing is, is Lindelof answers all of the right answers here to where you don't have these major questions.
00:18:24
Speaker
ah in terms of like plot or, you know, logic. Instead, you just kind of learn to let it all ease and you kind of ride with it. And by the end of it all, you you you learn that what's emotionally true is more important than any kind of logic the show was originally going with. And that's been a theme that's been consistent since the first season.
00:18:45
Speaker
It's consistent with the first season, which is why, i mean, this show is, to it you know When I say perfect, there's a few things that are actually perfect, but in terms of like you know that meme where it's like the three parts of the horse and then there's like, they're all the good ones. like that That's like season that's the leftovers. like Each season has stuff that is great and it fits together so well. As a whole. Just to build off what you're saying there, ah how like all three set ah seasons, ah they're all good parts. What's interesting is I find that the third season even makes fun of things that they did in the
Audience Expectations & Storytelling
00:19:24
Speaker
first season. prior seasons but absolutely likely they don't really hold their its own mythology too precious i think the best way to encapsulate this ideology is like when we get the dog shooter uh who appears way up front of the season three and he's like we gotta we gotta attack these people we gotta assassinate they got the faces of dogs and and there's a moment where you're sitting there with it and you're like is this the direction the season's gonna go right now Yeah, because you're like, this is like a huge ask. I'll i'll i'll go. I'll see where you're going with Because I love seeing that actor back and seeing Kevin's reaction to that. But yeah, I agree that what they do is so good. Like that they're like, oh, you thought that that's what we were going to do. ah but still leaving you with the little dangling thing of.
00:20:11
Speaker
are some people secretly? die know I mean, I, I, you know, this is about a show about belief systems and because they're all coming from a human perspective, they're going to be inherently flawed. Even if there is real supernatural things that people are experiencing or seeing or brushing up against or something, it's still then it reinterpreted through the human lens. So like, and you kind of get to decide what that is. ah um
00:20:42
Speaker
what's the ah David david ah Burton ah who like calls himself God like my take on that character we'll get to like the big episode with with him sorry I'm just like jumping all over the place but this is kind of part of my larger point is that he's you know, telling people he's God, he died in a cave and it came back to life. ah I would be like, yeah, that's just a guy who can do that now. Kind of like Kevin. And he's just, he's like, Oh, kind of like Bill Murray and a groundhog day when he keeps trying to kill himself. And then one of the days he's like, I think I might be a God, you know, like I can't die. feel like he's reached that conclusion where he's like, can't,
00:21:20
Speaker
I mean, because it it seems like there is a vacancy, you know, like no one's present and watching over all this. So it's like, ah, mean, I mean, you know, he's like, that's what he thinks he, I mean, he may be legitimately thinks he is, ah but that's just, you know, that,
00:21:38
Speaker
His his thing not actually being ah but i i can kind of ah complete some of the point that you were making there, because you're talking about Burton, who has this belief in himself as ah God and how he starts to lose ah connection with reality in a sense and treats people less than. and And I think that the truth is, is that Kevin represents that as well, even at the beginning of the season, because with that point we were just talking about the dog killer, like he doesn't go along with that. And it's because like even by that point, he believes that he himself belongs to a higher purpose. We saw how the last season ends, how season two concluded. Everyone's gathered around him after he died, it cheated death twice. He believes that like he is the miracle of miracle and everyone around him kind of feels that way too. I mean, he's riding like a white horse. He's got a beard, you know, ah but the the difference is Kevin acts like he's reluctant to it. But like you said, he does believe it even if...
00:22:42
Speaker
I think he so desperately wants to keep the normalcy and because he can't tell Nora that, you know that stuff. So ah he he ah is going to like, no, that was, you know, like I had an episode. I tried to kill myself and, you know, the. That's just one of those things, I guess I survived, you know, like like that's what he's going to say, you know, but we know. and then like everyone at this point, he already has his little following. But like you see it when he jumps into the water that like ah the protesters are doing, which I love that as a conclusion to like what like what was the guilty remnant? You you see Meg.
00:23:22
Speaker
she basically has like a compound last season where they're like a man, it looks like they're massing an army. Like they have guns. They make a reference to plastic explosives. And then at the end of when they, you know, storm the town, take the visitor center, they're just,
00:23:36
Speaker
standing there and sit like singing and, and stuff. it was But the, the government, like drone, drone strikes them, which is what they wanted. You know, like that, I think that, that that's the purpose of ah escalating of, of the, like the armaments of like, they have, they're going to have to do this. Yeah.
00:23:56
Speaker
Well, like, like I'm never going to be the one who, ah you know, supports military action, especially a drone strike. And by the way, like, I'm just really glad that Obama is still sitting in the White House. We didn't ever got the confirmation that he departed, you know, so like this is a good, you know, here here it is, you know.
00:24:13
Speaker
ah but and he's really good at he is such a good. Actually, his KD is kind of bad, but his ratio is a little off. Yeah. they were technically nonviolent protesters. We do have to underline that point. They they didn't shoot anyone. they They didn't lie about a bomb protest, about bomb threat, you know, but they they didn't shoot anybody in the last season. That being said, ah you know,
00:24:40
Speaker
When the fill the guilty remnant gets bombed, like, right at the beginning of this season, i feel like that is an indication that, like, the government is clamping down so hard on these extremists. Like, what we saw season one...
00:24:55
Speaker
Season one, they were already so aggressive going after Wayne's ranch and, you know, that phone call Kevin has. ah But so by this point, we're nearing the seventh anniversary. Like, oh, yeah, there's a time jump, which I was a little worried, you know, hearing like, oh, the season's a little shorter. There's going to be a time jump. I'm like, are they going to be struggling to like ah cover some like myst ground But no, seventh anniversary is perfect. It makes sense of like checking on these milestones of the departure, because, of course, you know, it doesn't matter that the world's religious leaders initially were like, yeah, this isn't our thing. The set people who have their own belief systems, you know, every every individual person the church doesn't listen to the pope. You know, like they believe different things in him. So, ah you know, Seven shows up in a lot of different sacred holy texts, you know, Bible everywhere. So and it makes a lot of sense that that would be like that perfectly sums up when Matt now has, you know, like a big following and in Miracle and, He's saying, i don't i don't think anything is going to happen on the 7.5. Well, it will happen here. And the Kevin you calls him out on it. It's like you said ah either nothing will happen or everything will happen, which he did. yeah Well, like the the thing, i just want to go back a little bit to what you were saying about like the importance of like the seventh anniversary. And and I really want to drill into something that you mentioned.
00:26:24
Speaker
appropriately pointed out, which is that like ah everyone has this like importance given to this day, ah but nobody really has a firm answer as to why. Like the the the show does a really good job in this first episode of showing you that like everybody is kind of on the edge of their seat, but there's no unified reason. Everybody has their own theories. You know, somebody, oh my cousin said this.
00:26:47
Speaker
Nobody is kind of unified on it, but there's this feeling that it's all coming to an end. and And even in the way that Miracle now is, where after this drone strike, it's become this kind of like almost lawless land. And and when the season opens, I'm like, oh is this the way America is? Like as law and order kind of crumbled. But it seems like, no, that's just what's happened here in Miracle. So it's like, it's a reflection of the people who are in charge of it, obviously, Kevin and and Matt and and all of the other people who are central to the show who are now running this town. They kind of allowed this environment to ah set forth. And even though, like you're saying, like ah Kevin's like, hey, tone down the rhetoric, Matt, there's a part of him that's like...
00:27:33
Speaker
he He kind of expects it and encourages it with his own behavior. So, like, I mean, he there's a reason he doesn't burn the book or throw. He doesn't ditch it. Like, he keeps it around.
00:27:45
Speaker
Like, once he learns, like, so, I mean, yeah, we we, there's no way to follow this conversation if you haven't been watching Bud Bay. Yeah.
00:27:55
Speaker
You know, there's been a new book of the Bible written about Kevin, but no, wait. On the note of the Bible, there was a thing I wanted to back up because you're talking about this sense of things are coming to an end. I think it's significant. The first scene we get is this awesome montage of... I didn't know... Because it's completely wordless, I didn't know about Millerism, like that this was a specific... Like, you know, because there's always like going to be some offshoots. Like, here's when this... significant thing he was at the end of the world or something here we can like prove it with math you know like you know there's like jewish versions of that or like uh you uh you interpret it it's kind of like the it's kind of like the thing richard kind was building in uh uh a serious man anything that you could just math out like the answer so
00:28:46
Speaker
um yeah Oh, sorry. miller ah Millerism was that the world, the you know, they're waiting for, you know, the second coming. And they're like, we have, we did some calculations. It's going to be then. And you see the family standing up on the roof, they red and the whole hands are like, yeah, let's go.
00:29:10
Speaker
rap sure they're just chanting at everyone's so psyched but then it doesn't happen so it's like and then it keeps not happening but you see the dwindling of like tillage just that mother going out on the brain because like she's like no i was told that this is happening you know like and this is all wordless that we're seeing this arc uh I think that encapsulates the whole show and all these characters in it, right? Like they are all waiting for the end. And obviously we'll talk about how that scene is reflected later on in the season. But the importance of that story is that more so than even the religion that they were following at that time, what mattered most was the person's personal truth. Like that woman is ultimately vindicated by going out on that roof.
00:30:00
Speaker
Right. And it's not just because of like the togetherness of her religion. It's not because of, you know, theology even. It's because of the belief in the self and whatever, you know, reality she had constructed. She was able to find the peace that she needed in order for her to make the connection. And and the thing that we get with this season of The Leftovers is exactly that time and time again, where, you know, whatever belief system we construct within our lifetimes, whatever memories we hold here, ah anything that kind of
00:30:35
Speaker
Yeah. it's all kind of meaningless in the end because rather than it being some grand plot that affects everybody it just affects the self and what peace we can find in our lives can only be found in being able to unfurl it like a scroll and and reading it and conceptualizing it appropriately. and And some people take much longer than others. And with this show, ah the interesting thing about the season is seeing how each of the characters arrive at those points at different times and how each of them individually help one another get to that place once they've themselves have arrived to that conclusion.
00:31:18
Speaker
Yeah, they it's kind of like a chain or like rally race that they all are like, even though they, even the people who are on the same side, you can tell, don't are like not in unison on beliefs. Because you're like, knowing that Michael and...
00:31:36
Speaker
Matt are doing another book of the Bible of Kevin. You're like, that tracks. But then the reveal that John knows, too, we're like, well, yeah, he did shoot Kevin. He killed him and saw him come back to life. So but then the the like cherry on top of him being like,
00:31:55
Speaker
Because also Evie could still be alive. Like if it he's like it ah convinced that I don't because there was a cover up. They didn't say that we bombed these civilians because they were, you know, big they were being very disruptive.
00:32:11
Speaker
So we nuked them. Well, that's also like where Lindelof and company are actually quite adept in a political sphere because ah they ah have to kind of walk the line in terms of what the initial the official truth is with what happened to the guilty remnant. And that mirrors the way in which they have to interface with reality in which they, you know,
00:32:35
Speaker
move through life and what they believe or don't believe in. I find it so fascinating that like John is such a devote believer of Matt and then is also like this sham psychic that works with Laurie now. And like, that's such a crazy dynamic that reveal like is maybe the, cra that's crazier than the dogs it is as, you know, senators or a shape-shifting dog people. ah i I did not see like them working together. Like in that reveal, you see her upstairs on the earpiece like, okay. And then then they're they're like, oh, you're married too? Whoa. Okay. This has been, it's been some years. That's crazy. And and just to have that next door. That's like, that's like Kevin, Kevin lives in a sitcom. It's like, ah my wacky ex and my wacky neighbor got together.
00:33:31
Speaker
Kevin is one of the funniest protagonists in television history. And you just outlined exactly why, because this is all so fantastical. And then also just like, let's get down to past task, right? Like Lori has been horrible to Kevin, but not, you know, like ah it was definitely bad on both ends. You know, he cheated on her for sure. well like Yeah. But even, and even after the daughter,
00:33:55
Speaker
Yeah. And then even after leaving the cult, she never i mean, we don't know what's happened in those three years like that. She's just been present, you know, maybe, you know, and that that's helped kind of heal the pain of, you know, that time she was away.
00:34:10
Speaker
Well, ah to go even further, right? Like, obviously, there's everything that happened with Tommy, right? Like, using him as a pawn to like, recruit people for cash to, like, deconvert them, right? And then the cherry on top is you get married to the guy who shot you and killed you, right? Like, it's just one stab after another, you know? And, like, obviously, I'm kind of being tongue-in-cheek. Like, I don't actually think that Laurie's, like, some monster, you know?
00:34:36
Speaker
no, no. At the same time, like, you know, it's pretty it is pretty funny that it was so nightly tied neatly tied together, especially since like John's ah son was hooking up with Margaret Qualley. And they were just like, rather than just continuing that, we're just going write quality off the show. We actually have a we actually have a thornier version of that dynamic where we can have adults do it. And then because then having the teenage version of that tension was interesting in that one scene when ah Jill is in the church. But I think, yeah, they they just don't have anything for her to do at this point. I mean, they use it.
00:35:15
Speaker
But she has a very effective you know phone conversation with Lori at the end. so And also the way that she's talking on the phone with Lori, ignoring what Lori's doing at that moment. But you know ah they sound pretty jovial. like They sound like they're like a hat like a unit. like like Both of her kids are pretty... And Tommy has pretty good... Everyone has kind of like good reasons to upset with ah Laurie, but it's it seems like it's it's it's copacetic, you know, and they're like all closer now.
00:35:48
Speaker
Well, like life goes on is the truth of it, right? Like Laurie's not going to go away and and she did all of that bad shit, but like she still exists. She's still a person, right? So like she she wants to be better. She thought that that was her truth when she was in the guilty run. She thought she was making a difference.
00:36:06
Speaker
But the the thing that we've gone over time and time again with these seasons is that, you know, like she has to come to those to that to like come to those terms and try to, you know, be the better person that she can be. And by the end of the season, I think we definitely see that transition. I think that she does redeem herself. And it's largely because she learns to let go a bit um and she learns to teach that to other people as well. Because like...
00:36:30
Speaker
Think about it. Like it would mess you up too. If like your ah patient ah turned out to be like the leader of a cult. at by right once the Like the rapture happened. Right. Like, and think about like how your life falls apart. Like that would set you off. so and And then your ex-husband, your ex-husband randomly tells you before he died a couple times that he's been seeing the ghost of that member, you know, like, like the, the, the, the kind of,
00:37:00
Speaker
doctor-patient relationship she has with various characters at different times. Like, that's basically what he's asking her, you know, at the end of season two, Lori, to, like, stay around. He's like, can you just, like, should hang out with us? Because it seems to help the Patty thing. so But then this season, you know, she's basically like Nora becomes ah officially patient because Nora pays her. But ah they.
00:37:26
Speaker
ah She also just is doing it with everyone, but also has to do it with themselves. That's the thing with all these characters that everyone would rather face. Something that's like way, way harder in Kevin's ah sense, like something that's literally like life and death, like take you to the brink, like you will be gone and annihilated if this if you're even like a little off doing this.
00:37:48
Speaker
And he's like, yes, I'm me. Yeah. um I of course I'm the fucking Messiah like I had had I just put on here for a purpose have you seen my beard uh the reveal of when I mean we see and it was funny last episode I was saying like oh they did two Simon Garfunkel you know he's saying Homeward Bound and Yeah. And then they used, uh, like, a I am a rock. And then, uh, you know, they were doing feeling groovy. Like, and then, but it goes immediately to the, Oh, he's putting bags on his head. And like, you know, like he's like asphyxiating himself. He's basically has the same hobbies as Joaquin Phoenix. And you were never really there. ah the, both those guys are or into that. Uh, looks fun. Equally as jacked. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:39
Speaker
the the it' It's great because the introduction of the season is, ah okay, so at the end of the second season, like, everybody was happy. Kingdom Hearts ending. Yeah.
00:38:52
Speaker
yeah This was the Kingdom Hearts. Exactly. It was the Kingdom Hearts ending. And then the opening of season three, it's like their happiness is still there. It's still achieved. But there's an unrest because of the answers that are still lingering. Like, again, the the whole rapture thing happened in this show. we've We've talked about all these like interpersonal stuff, but the reality of all these people being...
00:39:16
Speaker
disappeared out of nowhere it's still lingering and and kevin you know asphyxiating himself like that in a way it's it's almost kind of narcissistic right it like it's it's him you know cheating death another way like he's getting addicted to the rush of doing that and think flatlining he's flat yeah he's like flatliners f line sesh he He is like ah Elliot Page or Kiefer Sutherland. You can go in either direction, whichever you prefer. But he's definitely in that route, you know? ah and
00:39:51
Speaker
Like, that's what's fascinating about this season, specifically with Kevin Sr. and Kevin and even Matt to an extent, where their obsession is ah slowly revealed to be this, like, ah self-fulfilling prophecy rather than any kind of healing property, you know? like I did all the things, so this must mean something. oh and like, even if...
00:40:16
Speaker
you know, let's, let's take some things at face value. Kevin senior was actually hearing, like he had access to some other plane and could talk to people who weren't there who were like helping. Maybe they, you know, we're intervening in Kevin's life and giving instructions about that. But then it's clear he hasn't been hearing them anymore. So it's like, what if you heard, what if you were like connected to like what kind of felt maybe felt like the divine and then was like, Nope.
00:40:42
Speaker
The line closed. and then you're just kind of, he's just figuring out meaning just from what he's seeing right in front of them. It'll be like, oh, I came to in that hotel. You know, like he remembers that he he doesn't even remember the call with Kevin. He just knows that like he partied hard at a hotel. And then he was like,
00:41:00
Speaker
came to what was on the TV, a chicken, you know? So he's like, the chicken leads to this thing. Like it has to, and I love that they're just ah cutting back to this elder that he's like getting the song from song that doesn't stop the rain. No, it it brings, them he tells him point blank. He's like that. Yeah. That song does not stop the flood. Yeah.
00:41:24
Speaker
Kevin Sr., by the way. You're talking about Chris Yeah, yeah. just for sunday the guy that Okay, so I want to get the name of this actor because you' you've activated ah a trap card in a way. He was great. to realize Well, like i I knew this guy. As soon as i he came on my television screen or my laptop before getting nitty-gritty about it, I recognized him, and his casting was actually on purpose. So David Gul... Sorry.
00:41:50
Speaker
ip sorry Gulp Illill. That's how you say his name. David Gulp Illill. So he was in this movie directed by Peter Weir in 1977 called The Last Wave.
00:42:01
Speaker
And it's about how a white attorney is trying to, you know, sort out this criminal case ah with ah five Aboriginal ah people in Australia. And get this, they are warning about an incoming Armageddon coming to Australia. Yeah. And he well is like the main guy who is like warning him of this incoming apocalypse of like a big flood. so like... That's awesome.
00:42:27
Speaker
The cast of him in this is very purposeful. And also he's just a great actor. If you go through his IMDb, he's got a ton of credits. He's in a bunch of other stuff. You should definitely check out his work. If you haven't already, you probably have. He's been in so much stuff.
00:42:41
Speaker
Yeah, but I'm definitely... like yeah um I'm definitely going to go back through through his other stuff and in watch especially those Australian ah movies you were mentioning. But he' is he's great just in mostly reacting because he only has – has one scene with Kevin Sr. and then one with you know ah Junior. so yeah But he he completely – he's already reached the state where – they need to get to in terms of letting go, you know what I mean? Like, like, cause like he he's not, don't even think Christopher Sunday does not even like straight up dismissive of Kevin. you'd Like, are you going to stop the flood with a song? You know, like he's not, you know, saying like, get out of here. You're crazy. You know? So like he's, he listens to his whole story, you know, like he's like, I'll hear out your logic.
00:43:34
Speaker
Yeah. Okay. I mean, maybe. Well, I think that like this conversation, this might be like just like completely like if you're listening to this and you have not watched this show, you will not understand what I'm about to say. But that's the whole episode. Yeah.
00:43:51
Speaker
Yeah. yeah a Surprise, fuckers. This is if you're a beginner, get out of town, loser. ah But the the the thing about... Christopher Sunday specifically, is he confirms that there is a level of spirituality. And the reason I say that is because the alive Christopher Sunday was more on board with this plot, like he was kind of with Kevin Sr. And then when he goes to the afterlife and has that conversation with Kevin Jr., there is this conversation where he's like oh the song would never worked.
00:44:22
Speaker
The reason I say this is because I think that there is this kind of purgatory world that Kevin Sr. and David Burton have been able to access. I don't think that David Burton is God. I think that he's in a similar position to work with Kevin, where he's in ah ah a way able to cheat death. They're able to visit this place.
00:44:41
Speaker
and i I think it's, I think, I think they're the same. i think he's just done it maybe more. Like he just seems like he has a better handle the mechanic. He's like, I read the manual, you know, like going there. i know. Oh, you got to sing a song this time. I know the different levels, bro. I know, like I played this game.
00:45:01
Speaker
So, but because he has that highest authority, As far as he can see, is there anyone above him? You know, like that's when someone that's when people started calling themselves God. And they're like, exactly. hu i don't really see. I'm like, I'm above. I'm at a level of knowledge that like no other humans has access to. And then one other guy just found out about. But, you know, other than that, no one else. Maybe some birds sometimes.
00:45:28
Speaker
and And so like when you're talking about that, like when you enter that plane, like some people call it enlightenment, right? But others would call it insanity, right? Narcissism, ah you know, like you're you're you're getting high on your own supply. and and I think that when Christopher Sunday is saying that to Kevin and and what that transpires into is there's this confirmation that like what's going to happen is going to happen. It's out of the hands of the people who are in play And whatever kind of specific importance that they felt bestowed upon themselves, uh, was completely imaginary. It was something that they added to themselves in order to make sense of their own lives, where in actuality, nobody has that sense of importance, which is fascinating because it just throws in the garbage, any of the theories that could have been had about the previous season, you know, like Holy Wayne, get out of here. ah you know and and we do get confirmation of that later on too. ah Like just the idea of like all of these things is just like water under the bridge, whatever theology, it doesn't matter.
00:46:34
Speaker
The only kind of spiritual realm that we know exists is this purgatory realm that exists specifically to help people work through their shit. Yeah. It's only people who've died since the departure. There's no like ghosts older. There's no like civil war ghosts walking around. It's like, Oh, I fought for the South.
00:46:54
Speaker
well Well, actually, in season in this season, we do see people who departed. Kevin sees people who departed. But the question does remain. It's like, does did Kevin like imagine that person because this is his afterlife?
00:47:07
Speaker
Right. Like, is is that like something that he filled in the blanks with because that's what he the the reality he believes? He even sees Evie. Right. And we know that Evie died. Right. Right. Well, then we'll, so, so we'll, she would fit the criteria of, of going there. Like, wait, who does he talk to? That isn't, uh, like, wasn't already someone who was, you said he talks to a departure. Yeah. he He talks to a departure, I think with, with the kids of the, the kids of the Australian. No, no. The thing with the kids is that they didn't, the mom assumed they departed. Oh, that's right. They died in the desert. Yeah. they Yeah. They were just, they,
00:47:44
Speaker
the the dad got lifted and then they were wondering, yeah, and then died and then the their shoes were missing. So Molly won't ask them where she... Yeah, so they didn't depart, which I think is interesting that, yeah, that's still off limits. Kevin does not have access to that. That's why you need another book, a book of Nora, but we'll get to her. You know, like you you need... Better book. I like the chapters better. There's more shoe on there. Yeah, but...
00:48:15
Speaker
ah Sorry, what was the point I was making? um bla blah blah blah Like the reality, you know, like how much of this afterlife is really an afterlife and and what ah is a construction within the mind?
00:48:29
Speaker
Well, and then it leaves you to have an interpretation of what are the even the implicate like, yes, this is an emotional journey that Kevin needs to go on He needs to decide to stop coming to this place and being self-destructive again, because that's like his every season. They would be like, Kevin, do you really want to be with your family?
00:48:48
Speaker
Yeah, okay, well then like Dianne come back to like, do an impossible thing, prove it. then he does it each season and they're like they're like, okay, but do you you actually want to be here? want to run away, don't you?
00:49:01
Speaker
he's like, shit, yeah, i do. I love that there is this question where it's like, ah does Kevin actually, is Kevin actually happy here? Right. Or is this suicidal ideation what's giving him freedom and is its is an escape? and and And he's faced with this answer like mid season and he's just like, nah, I still want to die. Yeah.
00:49:27
Speaker
He's like, no, I still got to see this shit through. and and and it speaks to like the believer mindset, right? That like even if ah there is a traditional or a to definitive way to solve your problem, some people need to go through the emotional truth first to make peace with themselves. Yeah.
00:49:49
Speaker
It's not like medically sound, nor would I condone it. Right. However, you know, some people need that. You know, some people have that closure issue. And ah we see that happen with Kevin to the extreme. he has to literally newton he nukes the the other purgatory world like he can never go back there. But it leaves open the question, if we either believe like that's liable, what happens to those souls? They're just gone forever. Or, you know, like in the Kevin metaphor.
00:50:19
Speaker
Jesus, ah feel like people don't, that's like, because I went to Catholic school, and like, ah you know, you used to go to church and stuff. There was a thing they made us memorize, like the Apostles Creed. And like, one of the things is like, it'd be like, ah he just, you know, he he died, he died.
00:50:35
Speaker
He descended into hell. Three days later, he rose from the dead. like, hold on, go back a second. Did you say Jesus was in hell for three days? Like, what happened there? So, but that's supposed to... Sounds like a Kevin Smith movie. He, like, freed... Like, there is a belief that he didn't just... leave on his own that like there were like souls that well there's the egocentric uh christian view where it's like no one who had died at that point went to heaven because they weren't actually doing the right one so jesus had to like free them all with him when he like left hell and so that's what yeah uh basically you know being like well ours this has been a rough night for you doug i'm sorry yeah it's just been a rough week
00:51:20
Speaker
I'm sorry, man. You're good. I'm just tired. but It's been kicking your ass. I wish that would solve that's solve everything. There would be no problems.
00:51:37
Speaker
you You just want her to send those like watching Academy screeners from your house. You just want to know that she's sending those from your location. I mean, ah what would that's the height of achievement, right? Like there's nothing that feels better than that.
00:51:52
Speaker
So I get why Kevin's like, I have to lock this shit down. is hard He's like, even though, yes, he part of him wants to run away. That's why he is saying the things of like...
00:52:04
Speaker
Out loud of like, let's say, let's let's keep the fanaticism to a minimum, you know, like ah only the real world's real. Because he also is reinforcing that line with Tommy when Tommy wants to talk about the drone strike. And he's like, well, there was actually a gas leak. And, you know, they like a clearly fictional narrative, but one that he will reinforce, not just because he's a cop. It's because.
00:52:28
Speaker
that it's like unanimously deciding this is the better truth. We've all decided it's just better if we go with this one, you know, and that's like, yeah oh, okay. So it's just whoever has the majority vote that that decides reality. Is that how it works? You know, like it is just down to an individual level. You can just decide your God. Like, you know, you can do anything.
00:52:53
Speaker
Well, ah on the note of decide your God, right? Like how does the season open? But we have a giant inflatable Gary Busey like hanging over the city. And that's that's going to be like the idol of the departed celebrities on the seventh. And I think that that's so perfectly describes humanity's outlook at that point where they still want to believe in something. But what had happened was so meaningless. Right. Because seven years out, they still don't have an answer. Like the the government was looking for. ah Asriel, the demon in the lens episode. We never get an another official government.
00:53:30
Speaker
Yeah, that was a government. For demons. Sanctioned thing. And then Nora's back working for the DSD. And that's probably why they shut it down. Like, fuck, we're not going to fight Kari Kuhn.
00:53:43
Speaker
She's too scared. Got out of hand with that demons section. You know, like we we got to we got to tone it back with the. the Well, the science communities have Bob kiss. So they're like, OK, who else? can Anyone else explain this? You know, like everyone that's that's people want there to be significance to the seven.
00:54:02
Speaker
the the seven years because it has to mean something. This all has to be for something. That's what John, John literally says that he's almost like the most self-aware, but while still going along with the delusion, he's like, and he, you know, you're married to the lawyer. How could you not have that level of like self-reflecting? He's like, I need this all to be real. Like everyone's story, like including Kevin seniors and the chicken that needs to be real or none of it. You know, like that, like,
00:54:31
Speaker
then that invalidates my shit. That means Evie can't be alive. Even though she's definitely dead. Sorry, I'm laughing. It's just sad. But also, dude, she's she's dead as hell.
00:54:42
Speaker
well Well, like, the thing is, Leftovers has always been a funny show. And while this season is really bittersweet, there's a lot of, like, moments that punch you in the gut. um I do feel as though we're meant to be, like, laughing at a lot of the developments here. So, like, I like i think it's totally fine to laugh. And also, like,
00:55:00
Speaker
From John's perspective, like he was the guy who was hunting down people who were you know religious fanatics in the last season. This time, you know he's bought into it because he saw that with Kevin. But then also, like his son was a religious to that beforehand. And he kind of brushed his son aside before because of this. And now it feels like this is almost like him making up for that in a way to me.
00:55:25
Speaker
But at this point, at one point, it almost feels like John is more fanatical than Michael because Michael. Yeah. Is the one who calls Lori and tells them where or lets Lori know where they were.
00:55:37
Speaker
Right. Like it is Mike. They kept being like, how did you know we were here at the at the ranch? And it's. Yeah. So i think because Michael's like, we all want the same, you like he's all, he's not in the show a ton, but like just from the sense I get from his character that he, he definitely has beliefs. He saw Kevin rise out of the ground. Like he saw, he witnessed resurrection one, that dude was dead for hours and he came back. But yeah,
00:56:05
Speaker
but I don't think he's going along with like he is part of the book that Matt's writing, but then stuff keeps getting layered on and you almost kind of see as I was like, I'm not signing off on everything. We all kind of, yeah he gets the sense kind of, he at least has a self-aware suit. Like we're all kind of like going towards the same thing, right? Like we could just roll together, but in terms of his personal faith, like he's not even one-to-one with Matt, you know, and they're writing the the new book of the Bible together. Like Matt, no, he has his own thing going.
00:56:38
Speaker
we should just talk about that episode, Matt, Matt World. that Like every... year but like i just I want to build off of what you just said there quickly because like he he is somebody like... ah what he's trying to do is trying to move past ah like his his idea of religion, John's son, is to help people.
00:56:57
Speaker
That's all he wants to do. And what he's being wrapped up into is this like Messiah story and like this new version of the Bible. And that moves away from what his idea of religion is. And and that speaks to where all of these characters are, not just at the start of the season and where they at the end, but just overall where it's like, what's,
00:57:18
Speaker
What's religion to them? And some people are just using it as a way to cope rather than a way to actually naturally handle their emotions, which leads us to it's a Matt, Matt, Matt world, which is like the cherry on top of the whole Matt arc.
00:57:35
Speaker
It is like a victory lap season because it is like, you know, like even in the fall of, you know, we'll get to the sequel to International Assassin. But like it they do. that It's like a curtain call. We're like, come on, everybody. Like, you love them, don't you? You love you love Matt Jameson. We're like, yeah, we fucking do Like, oh, Matt Ellison, you did it. You know, like.
00:57:59
Speaker
but yeah And like, what better way to have his episode, ah you know, on a sex cruise? yeah With a lion? Yeah. it Fucking.
00:58:11
Speaker
It's like very specific. What was the thing they were extending when they like were like, oh, you said the name. Was he supposed to jack off into that? Or like, what was? Yeah.
00:58:23
Speaker
ah Apparently all of that, like the the whole myth and stuff, it's based on like a real myth, you know, that like people actually believe. Well, the song was already there. So I was like, oh, this this feels real. Just like the Millerism thing where there's like, yeah, we're kind of like incorporating.
00:58:38
Speaker
a group of people just decide to start believing things sometimes. And this is what happens. Yeah. and And I love that, like, as I was mentioning before, you know, like they were having this whole like, oh, if something's going to happen, apocalypse wise, it's going to happen. in Miracle.
00:58:54
Speaker
But like, as the days are approaching, the supposed apocalypse or some kind of fallout of such. Matt's like, we need our main character. He's checking his watch. He's like the Messiah. He's like, you know, getting, getting a mont time. He's the director of the play. Where is our Messiah? Yeah.
00:59:12
Speaker
we We could get the understudy, you know, if if he doesn't show up. But but what my point is that, like, this is how these people are taking their last moments on Earth, you know, like our our glimpse into it is like this fairy is now being used as a vessel for debauchery because people are just devolving to this point.
00:59:32
Speaker
And I had said on previous episodes, like, you know, like ah the first one was about like, you know, trying to move past seconds, trying to hold on. This season would be about kind of everything crumbling. I think that it was mostly true. i think that everybody thinks everything is going to crumble.
00:59:47
Speaker
But the reality is, is it doesn't. And they kind of get to go through ah an emotional simulator to get them to that. But everything doesn't crumble. But they get to feel it all crumble.
00:59:58
Speaker
And then that leads them to peace. Well, some something are better better than where they were at. Like, there's always going to be something, I feel like. the that's ah Let's get let's get the do another time jump. We get the 20 years later. And then what's what what are Nora and Kevin up to? Like, I want to see. Well, if he still hasn't learned his lesson, he's like, I still love i loved my wife, but I sure don't love dying.
01:00:25
Speaker
I'm going to say he didn't learn his lesson and he's still killing dogs. But the the thing is, is that, ah you know, when when we're at that point where. ah Oh, shoot. Who was I just talking about? Matt.
01:00:40
Speaker
Now I'm losing it. Yes, Matt. It's contagious. ah Yeah, exactly. You're rubbing off on me, unfortunately, in that sense, you know, like, geez louise. But with Matt and this episode, it's like he experiences this unwinding of his belief system, his whole way of life. And he understands that not only was he believing in the wrong version of God, but he was using it as a way to, like, mask his own... ah not even insecurities, but like inadequacies. i think it's brilliant writing because it's not just challenging theology as a concept for the people who follow it.
01:01:19
Speaker
Yeah. And before all that, we should also mention Mary was leaving him because he has been like kind of tyrannical. Like she cannot leave this town. You know, like that's that's why she's walking again. That's why we had the baby. Like, i don't know if he thinks they're just going to turn the dust. Like, what is he? What do you think is going to happen, man? But he needs to believe that this place did it. That's what not just... I don't know.
01:01:43
Speaker
seemed like a lot of random flukes just happen now. Like things we can't explain just that should just be happening. So i don't know. well well we already know how Matt is, right? Like anything could happen and like he will find a way to add importance to it. He was the guy who was making the same breakfast burrito in the microwave every morning because of the like something that happened. Right. So I i get that.
01:02:09
Speaker
why he hones into these things on an obsessive level from a human perspective. You know, like you you can empathize with that. But what I like about this season, what it does to his character and all the other characters as we go through their arcs is it strips all that shit away. It's like this was all just a defense mechanism, Matt.
01:02:29
Speaker
we We all could see through your shit. Like we were all laughing about that from the first season. And now you have to find ah have to deal with that. And and and when he has to kind of sit with how he let his a wife and now child leave him because he saw it as more of an obstacle in his faith rather than like a sadness in his life. like it It just totally outlines where that character's head's. I mean, his favorite book is Job. It's not just that he's the Job character. He's a guy who will say my favorite book of the Bible is Job. So that means he we've seen him last season. He willingly chooses that suffering because he's like, well, that gives it.
01:03:08
Speaker
That's my importance. That's my role to fulfill here. And that makes you it's it's for you. And another show, it would feel lesser is like you're just making the subtext text like someone's literally just saying this to the character, what they need to the right the realization they need to come to but it's coming from a guy he's talking to God God's like hey here's your deal do something about that
01:03:37
Speaker
it's it speaks to like how people see God too, because for Matt, like he sees God as a being who is not just kind, but also like he takes, he gives and he takes. He has a way of like, you know, making life harder that you can't understand and you have to just kind of accept and move forward with it. He likes playing on hard mode.
01:04:04
Speaker
He picks the hardest difficulty and it's like, No one plays on it that one, that difficulty for this game. This game's already really hard, man. You don't need to do extra hard. And he's like, no, I want the achievement.
01:04:17
Speaker
I feel like he's more like an art historian in Italy, right? Where he's talking about like the brushstrokes on like like the finest chapel. And how every single thing matters so importantly, like to to not just like ah history, but like to the mind of the person. And after a certain point, you're like, it's not just what this was, but it's also what this person's idea of this was. And and and that's the way he was taking it to religion. and And by that point that you reach that point, And similarly, you're saying you grew up with Catholic, you know, ah ah theology in school. Like i grew up in the Christian school, you know, so yeah I understand what you're saying. and And when you see how people end up in religion, the ways in which ah they find themselves in Christianity, Catholicism, ah Islam, whatever. Right. Right. like people end up there because of things that they believe and they want to rationalize.
01:05:20
Speaker
And with Matt, like he just kind of reaches to the point where he can't justify his shitty behavior anymore. Like he's run out of lies. It's it's over. he He can't keep like saying that this is for some divine purpose because he's on a fucking ferry boat. By the time they're on the boat,
01:05:39
Speaker
it's not going to happen of him getting Kevin back to Miracle. Like, and John knows it too. he's like, that's whatever's going to happen is going to happen here. So John's offering a pet. He's like, actually, brother, I ain't hopping off the train. We actually just got to go We're just changing location. You know, like it's actually Tim. So let me just do that. Like, ah So, but Matt has to realize at this point why he was on that ride. And it was for him, like David Burton says, ah and that's just such a good scene of when he, so he sees, he killed a guy, right, Burton? He just pushes the guy off the boat. He kills a man.
01:06:19
Speaker
ah Matt sees it. kill Someone killed him on a ferry orgy, I say, you know, they they they they were not doing a good job at the door check. You know, they just kind of were letting people in.
01:06:30
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, you could just say, what did they say to ah get on? They, like, ah pretended like they were part of the the group? or there There was, like, some password, and he said something basic, and they were just like, oh, yeah, oh come on. Oh, oh, oh, oh,
01:06:48
Speaker
He didn't know the password, but he's like, tell me the filthiest joke you know. And and and Nora was about, or...
01:06:58
Speaker
Nasty joke. Matt that tells a nasty What's the difference between a priest and a zit? Like a priest or zit will wait until you're like 12 to come on your face or something. Exactly. Yep.
01:07:13
Speaker
and And you know what that does, too, is it also shows the cracks in Matt where like up until that point, right? How many episodes we've seen with him?
01:07:24
Speaker
When would we ever call him self-aware? When would we ever be like this guy has like a sense of humor about his profession? I don't think that I would ever get that impression. But that joke illustrates that.
01:07:37
Speaker
no Even if like that's the luxury of the cracks are there, it also speaks to me that like that's more than just what this religion is, despite everything we've seen with him so far.
01:07:49
Speaker
I mean, he's the brother of Nora, you know, like, yeah, people's lives go in different directions and especially theirs with their parents dying so, so young. But like ah they have, there's some overlap of life experiences. Then you have to imagine like worldviews, like, are or just personality things. I mean, we see him doing mat libs at the end of the show with Nora and we didn't know that this was a thing that he did. Like she says it like, this is like, Oh, this is like one of the best things you do.
01:08:21
Speaker
You know, like that they've they've done this before, maybe since they were kids. And like just knowing that you're like, that's way more of a personality than we've seen. You've been like a, a you know, church robot, basically. So like, I didn't know. i didn't know you had other other things in your personality.
01:08:39
Speaker
Well, I think it's like one of the most beautiful aspects of the show when we do get that Matt Libs moment. And and I do want to dig into Matt Libs specifically when we get to it.
01:08:49
Speaker
ah More like when we get to Nora, I should say. But the... ah The thing about that, and to drill in your point specifically on like, oh, this guy's fun, is like we could have had that version of Matt through the whole of Leftovers. That was the person who was just sitting and simmering the entire time. And and everybody has that. there is There is a base normal version of everybody. And like we could, we kind of see it in a flashback episode where almost to an extent where you're like, where are the cracks? And then you already see the cracks are there with Kevin. So like we never, Kevin, as far as we've seen is like never settled until, you know, like maybe we'll talk about, you know, how the show ends, but.
01:09:35
Speaker
we We don't see like his factory settings. You're like, or has he always been this? I don't know. I think this show is kind of about like realizing that the world is not like around you and that like the world's going to continue much further once you're gone And how, you know, people think that everything that happens to them has importance on everybody else as well.
01:10:00
Speaker
So all of this is just kind of people kind of coming to terms with their own mortality. And all everybody comes to this at different points in their lives. Like, it's not just like a middle age thing. It's just it's something that happens to people even in their elderly years. Yeah.
01:10:15
Speaker
It's something that it's the eternal struggle of life, really. and and And the true meaning of a meaningful life is if you understand the answer to that question before you die. That's kind of the way I read the season. I'm sorry to go so broad. No, no, no. I think i think that's in there. I think that, like we've said from the beginning, that as bleak and cynical as a show can seem, that it you know it's kind of a soft, you know, like they had a Kingdom Hearts this you know season finale. So it wants to see these people happy, ultimately, even if it will put them through hell. Or, you know, people will die and bad stuff happens, but...
01:10:57
Speaker
They're like, it is going to continue. I think even more specifically than like them, you know, like things are going to, we want to see them happy. Right. It's like life is going to go on whether they think their story is coming to a close or not, whether they think that like, you know, something important is going to happen and they're going to be in the center of it. ah You know, like,
01:11:18
Speaker
It's going to be okay. Like the Bible has all these characters in it, like important or not, right? How many of them live and then the rest of their story is not written, right? That they're going to continue and and that's it, right? And that's what this is. It's like even if these were important figures in this world's theology, they still got to just keep moving. they Like there's still – Yeah. hey The sun's going to – maybe there will be other weird stuff that happens. I don't know. It kind of seems like that kind of died down after a bit, even though it's like, yeah, maybe there are certain people who still have access to that, like plane or or whatever. We don't, it doesn't have a form, you know, like it's not the most concrete we see is that, you know, a hotel, but that's like, you know,
01:12:08
Speaker
That almost just feels like something that was created just for, really yeah because it's just people who've died since departure. It reminds me of the whole twist at the end of season six of Lost. It's like, no, this was a pocket universe. There was another timeline they created when that nuke went off in season five. And it's like they built their own afterlife so they could all be together. It just came up with a very weird, hyper-specific version. But people remember that and say, like, yeah, it was like Purgatory or something. The island was Purgatory. They, like, kind of combine.
01:12:44
Speaker
i don't know. People... Lost has a weird cultural memory in how people reference that show. But ah the point I was making here was What was the point? You're kind of like, you're drawing parallels, actually, I find. and And you're right that they, like, the way that the afterlife and the leftovers and the end of the lost are kind of there. Like, it Lindelof is carrying over the same kind of principle here.
01:13:08
Speaker
Yeah. It's like, that did happen. Yeah. Also, you know, we're going on, you know. and And it's also like emotional truth is as important as material truth.
01:13:21
Speaker
Like, like in Lost, it doesn't really matter if it's purgatory, if it's real or not. Like when you're seeing all of those people in that space together, you understand that like it means something and and you're along with the ride. That's what makes that ending work, in my opinion.
01:13:38
Speaker
ah But yeah, i like I like I like that ending. I mean, this end this has a better ending, I think, but i also like the loss. And well, I feel like this ending works better, in my opinion, but I like that i like loss as well. I think that this one works better because it is able to give some definitive truth to it while also keeping the mystery alive.
01:14:02
Speaker
And we we get that mainly because like the show, like this is when I'll pull the carpet because I feel like we've been dancing around this. Like season one and two, Kevin Garvey was this the star of the show. But season three is Nora's season. and and Yeah, book. There's a book.
01:14:21
Speaker
I don't know if you've read it. It's on the bestseller list. It's equal to the book of e Eli. But the the the thing is, is like this season, ah when I was saying it was fan service, what i mean by that also is that this rug pull ah by making it about Carrie Coon's character, by having Nora be the kind of the vector in which we can make sense of all of this in the end. ah it It speaks to the truth of what the show has been getting at, not based on what it started out as, but rather what it became over time. And I think that can only happen when you start to make a show and as you see it evolve. And and I think that's what's interesting about this finale of a season is that it wouldn't exist in the form that it does without the people who write it ah recognizing the avenues in which they could go down and realizing this is the only natural place for us to conclude these themes is through Nora, not through Kevin. Wow.
01:15:18
Speaker
Well, it's just such a wonderful arc when they figured it out that that was going to be what it was all about, because she has been pure skeptic as far as we've seen the whole time, you know, in terms of, yes, her family departed, like her whole family's gone. That was crazy. But that was a one time event.
01:15:37
Speaker
There's no funny business happened after that. Like, this is the one the one the one weird thing. then don't worry about
Nora's Conflict & Kevin's Role
01:15:45
Speaker
it. ah But having the possibility, like you kind of know immediately as soon as she finds out about the scientists in this device. Yes. I believe her rage is genuine when she's like, Oh, we're going to catch them. But she has already maybe like doing the math of like, don't get in that thing. yeah like i'm yeah I'm getting, I'm getting in. Zap me. Yeah.
01:16:08
Speaker
Well, look, Carrie Coon is a great actor, but at the same time, the moment that she starts to hear like, There's a way, you know, like I know that she is she is all in on it. And and the thing is, is that, ah you know, she doesn't want any part of Kevin's like Messiah bullshit because she doesn't want a repeat of the rapture. What what happened that day made her special in a very meaningless way.
01:16:36
Speaker
And if she were to be the spouse of Jesus, she would be in the same position again where it's like she would be important, but she wasn't Jesus. She just has to live in the reality of being close to Jesus. Right. So she doesn't want to be. But it's almost a practical joke because Kevin's the one who's clinging on to Nora's story in this one. yeah Like she walks in on him with the bag over. it was almost just like that SpongeBob gag of a guy who's got the lollipop and was like dressed like he's like, oh, i can explain. Yeah. I like, it was first thing. He's like, oh, you know, i always, i always, you know have a way out. You know, I dad take it all. I don't want to die. And she...
01:17:17
Speaker
who does even Even if Kevin never had any of the other ho hocus pocus stuff and didn't you know bring that up to her, she would totally she gets that like kind of self-destructive drive. I mean, she used to hire like call girls to shoot her. you know So I think she's like, yeah, yeah like if that's what you got to do, man, like you know sometimes you got to do that.
01:17:38
Speaker
Well, he he had such an easy way out. All he needed to say it was like his secret kink or something. You know, maybe she could have gotten involved. You know, like we know like you said, Nora used to hire prostitutes to shoot her. She probably would have been into that, right? the The thing is, is that it's this added layer to where he's not just, you know, trying to...
01:17:58
Speaker
We know that Kevin is trying to kill himself. We know that he's not doing this because of any kind of religious reason. He's doing this because he actually wants to be closer to death than reality. That's that's the underlying truth. He was saying that was the most alive he felt to Laurie. I think that's how he phrased it. Like like and that's and that to him.
01:18:20
Speaker
is the proof he needs to know that that was real. He was like, no, I felt that. Like, and that was like the, that was like the realest shit I ever felt. You know, it's like, ah it's become a drug now and you're chasing that that high. It's like, oh, no, no, no. It felt really good. So I gotta, gotta do that again. Yeah. Yeah, and and it's ah it's it's fascinating that he finds that truth in that way and it's seen as preposterous, right? and And Nora can't deal with that. But then like she's on the inverse of that where she is buying into this other delusion, but it's based in science. It's based in like some form of reality and it speaks to the –
01:19:01
Speaker
inverse of what makes Nora but buy into reality versus what Kevin sees as truth. Yes, because it's Everyone here, whether they admit it or not, they want answers. They want some guidance. Lori, in that one opening, goes out. We see the moment she joins the cult after she tried to kill her. her First, her patient was asking, you like, tell me what to do. And then she's going to decide, like, oh, yeah, actually, i'm probably going to kill myself. yeah so But then immediately changes her mind and then puts on white and then goes out to the Guilty Mermaid and says, tell me what to do. So, like, even Nora would never say that.
01:19:39
Speaker
she would like some
Characters Seeking Meaning
01:19:40
Speaker
structure in a thing. So like the, the, the science gives her the end of like, no, I mean, these people look legit. Like there is the moment of, cause she is you know, using the guise of this is even though they're out, that's out of the jurisdiction, there's like nothing they could do, you know, like the department of sudden departures or me, I don't know, governments just do whatever they want. So, especially in that world. then at that point and be like whatever we're sending an armed force over here that's the follow-up interview yeah but we're getting into this like uh fossilization ah company uh but like before we can even do that right we got to talk about the way that episode opens where we get because like something that's been happening this entire season is there's a new song playing over the intro. And, and for whatever reason, they decided to put on a perfect strangers theme song. And it's because they decided to close the loop on a running joke that I didn't even notice. Yeah. through the rest of the season did you catch the running joke that's been happening through that i i clocked it i i guess i because this is the rewatch so i had more fun with it now because i'd never watched that show perfect strangers you hear the dad say in the first season like have the whole cast lifted and then like season two you see in and i think it was in a nor episode where
01:21:04
Speaker
um They're like, yeah, he was in Mexico. He faked Markland Baker faked his departure. and then he's like pretending not to speak. He's like, oh, no, I'm like shit. And he runs off. So I definitely remembered what they were doing when that happened. But then like just seeing it unfold again like that.
01:21:22
Speaker
How brilliant. And it's a good performance that that scene in the hotel room where when he comes back. Yes, because he is like, selling like Nora is has to have the stern, skeptical face.
01:21:39
Speaker
But even before she's met the scientists, I feel like on his emotional level, he is selling that this is real. I mean, they they keep seeing all these things, like these testimonials are like, yeah, all these people had, you know, like psych evaluations and make sure they were of the right state of mind. You know, like we want to make sure people like, and then they're like,
01:21:59
Speaker
I feel like they had like reciting like advanced degrees. Some of them had like, no, they were smart. So like, this is not something this isn't a scam. Well, I think what's interesting, because we'll we'll get into the specifics of it later on, or we can just dive right in, whichever you prefer, because this is obviously like the biggest part of the season, I would argue.
01:22:21
Speaker
ah but But with this Perfect Strangers connection, i want to I want to be tidy with this. So with Perfect Strangers, ah this Mark Lynn Baker guy, like for me personally, when I was first watching this, like when those other details were revealed in the show, I treated them as jokes. So we get this like whole like culmination of it all with this episode and and that theme ah coming in at the start of the episode. It And then a leftovers version of that theme.
01:22:52
Speaker
oh my God. but Like that. and And by the way, that theme, the leftovers version of it is the only official version of it you can get on streaming platforms. You can't get the original theme from Perfect Strangers. You can only get the leftovers cover of it. So, whoa, out there. ah But but but what I wanted to bring up with this is that like a ah by having Mark Lynn Baker be like the face of this company trying to like recruit people to come in. What I like about it is is that like I don't fully trust him.
01:23:26
Speaker
like now Well, he fakes he fakes him he he fakes his departure. like like Like, this is another con, right? so and And, like, it doesn't even matter, like, what sound of mind people were when they did this procedure.
01:23:42
Speaker
People do crazy things when they're in search of the truth or when they believe that they're something that's wrong. When they have faith, you know, they believe that... Some scientists told them, we have the radiation signature of like, we picked this up where the people departed.
01:23:58
Speaker
We're going to zap you with that. And that's going to send you there. And there's, would have so many more questions between that point and that point of like, how, how is it sending me there? And where is there? Give me.
01:24:11
Speaker
My first question is, do I get back? No. Right. Do I want to do I want to go there and then, you know, stay there? Right. Am I vacationing? he's like Yeah. but Like and and and and what I like about this is that um the truth of it is like I don't buy it Like I don't like when when they're giving me the sell. I don't believe it. But Nora does. And that's what matters more is that Nora is i'm going to be the one to do this.
01:24:39
Speaker
I mean, she's convincing, you know, because if she's doing it I'm like, well, Nora's like the smartest person on this show. So her, everyone that keeps thinking their belief systems must be her. She, cause she's smarter.
01:24:52
Speaker
That for sure. Right. But then it's also like of all the people in the show ah who have been trying to like find some kind of peace, even by the end of like season two, right? Like how I was describing how everybody's happy. I would say they consistently the most, the least,
01:25:08
Speaker
filled with rest person has always been her, Nora. And it's because she was the only person in the core cast who was really directly related to the departure. So like for her, like she is far more tied to the central threat, which is why ah I mean, her whole family that left. If that's not if that's not significance, then then nothing is right. You know, like going along with everyone else's logic. It's like that has to mean something, you know, like it's like the that there's something going on. i have to close the loop on the perfect strangers thing because. it like ah Like, this may blow your mind when I say it, right? So, like, the reason i like I looked into it more was because I wanted to see how Perfect Strangers ended as a show. And the finale of that show was largely a clip show, like, of the best scenes. But the the last, like, narrative beat of it is there is a time jump to 10 years later, where whoas that everybody who is on the show is like happy and together still. And they're like, Oh, we're going to raise our kids and they're going to be like happy together and like be together, you know?
01:26:20
Speaker
So like you sneaky devil. Exactly. Lindelof is like tying in not just like Perfect Strangers with Mark Lynn Baker, but then he's also found a way to like sneak the themes of Perfect Strangers itself into the finale of The Leftovers.
01:26:39
Speaker
That's incredible. I didn't i didn't know that that part. How? Yeah. He's just he's just he's playing he's playing 4D chess on this one. This is why this is his best show. It's way better than Watchmen, I have to say. And I liked Watchmen.
01:26:53
Speaker
Yeah, Watchmen's good. It has a lot good stuff. And then it and then it kind of just ends. Like, to me, it's like it didn't have... yeah i mean, not every show needs to be that, where it's like the last episode's the best one. And it's like, there's a bit... i mean because it'd be weird if there's like a big fight or something that ends the Watchmen show. And like... I don't think that's how that would work.
01:27:13
Speaker
Yeah.
Series Conclusion & Character Growth
01:27:14
Speaker
Like, I'm fine with with with the amount of Hong Chao that we got. Like, that felt more spiritual. I could use more of her, not just her character, just her on my screen. Just like, yeah come on. Every day.
01:27:26
Speaker
TikTok feed, just thumbing through Hong Chao. that's That's me. ah But the the the thing is, is that... ah With with the this whole perfect strangers connection that I'm making, it' it's that like, you know, we've been looking at this as like a mystery box, but you said it yourself.
01:27:47
Speaker
This is a sitcom. This is like at the start of this podcast, this is a sitcom and it's all about how we return to normalcy. That's what a sitcom episode is. But this entire series ah has been about like there was a normalcy that somebody could reach because they could find peace with them themselves. Yeah. And this entire show has been about like how they can reach that peace or that normalcy again.
01:28:10
Speaker
oh you muted yourself. You muted yourself. You said reach this normalcy again and then you mute. Some people find this ah normalcy like... ah like Lori. Some people find this normalcy, ah don't find this normalcy, like Matt. You know, they they take that to their grave.
01:28:27
Speaker
ah So so it's it's a thing where um some people can reach this conclusion before others. And it's fitting that Nora is the person who's the final one to come to this.
01:28:39
Speaker
Well played. I hate to cut you off like that, but can I take a break?
01:29:07
Speaker
I feel like, yeah, it hasn't. It's really gone under the radar. Does A24, because they've won multiple, you know, multiple of their movies have won Oscars, that that there's like, yeah, we don't have to market. That works. It was just a word of mouth. It happened organically. We just sat back because the movie was that good. Like, they just want that to be the narrative. So they're just not going to promote each movie, hoping that one will catch on and be become the next one.
01:29:35
Speaker
I think A24 is in a position where they don't really care about Academy Awards as much as they care about financial success. ah Yeah. They like for them, like, you know, it would be nice for them to get awards. But like when when you look at a movie like if I had like so I'd kick you like they're they're only going to seriously consider pushing like actress, if anything. Yeah.
01:29:59
Speaker
I doubt that we're even going to see that Rose Byrne nomination even, which would be shameful in my opinion. like it like it would be straight to jail. That's just some more than shameful. like yeah feel Feel bad for what you did Why... Think about your actions. Do like Ariana Grande and or Cynthia Erivo instead of Rose Byrne. Like that's going to be that's going to be a real travesty if that happens. They should just take up one slot. Just nominate. I think so. it's
01:30:30
Speaker
Yeah, just design both them as one if for lead, whatever. Who gives a shit? They honestly should also do that for Sean Penn and Leo for. Yeah. for one battle because people were like, how we going to split it between Benicio? No, Benicio, he's supporting, and then Sean Penn, he's the other lead. They're both leads.
01:30:50
Speaker
Some would argue that Sean Penn is the lead. of you know He drives a lot more of the plot than Leo does. yeah this
Nora & Kevin's Relationship
01:31:00
Speaker
technically Technically and functionally true.
01:31:02
Speaker
Yeah, so... Just straight up. Do you believe Nora at the end when she said we heard her spiel about going ah to because they kind of it's so brilliant when they you know, the tank starts to fill and You're not sure. Like, is she about to call for someone? Like, she's like raising her head above the water. and She's like making sound. Sounds are coming from her like, is she saying like, oh, stop. It's just she wants to stop. And you don't know. Yes.
01:31:31
Speaker
Oh, she does say yes. You hear her say yes. which Which is an interesting detail. But what I like just answer your question, because you ask ask the question of do I think it's real?
01:31:43
Speaker
The answer is kind of a cop out. The answer is it doesn't matter. Oh, I, of course, is it it doesn't. No, that that that's true. Just like in that episode, they're being cheeky and giving you ah you, know, choose your own adventure realities about the like little things that don't matter. Like the nun who has the guy climb out the ladder. And she said, I saw that guy climb out of, is that your room up there? You just had sex with that guy. was like, don't know what you're talking about. You so it's, you're like, it's like Schrodinger's, ah
01:32:13
Speaker
Booty call. You're like, wait, did that happen or did that not happen? but Well, it's also like the the idea of if it did happen or it didn't happen, it doesn't matter because Nora found closure.
01:32:26
Speaker
Like what what matters more is that Nora, like she like well she found closure, but then she also in the place that we find her in the finale, she didn't fully find closure because she still does truly want to be with Nick. And we'll get into that later. You mean with Kevin? In this conversation. Kevin, I don't know i said Nick. Okay.
01:32:45
Speaker
Oh, because we were talking about Nick about recording or something. or Oh, maybe. I don't know. Your name's Nick as well, too. Yeah. Yeah. Because this is his account. Yeah.
01:32:56
Speaker
Because we all know Carrie Coon. I'm the one she wants to be with. So that's just like you would have said doug That's why it was weird. i was like, why wouldn't you say my name? Make this easier for me. Come on. But the the the ah the thing the thing is is that ah she needs to, like, make peace with herself before she be happy with anybody else. Fact of life. ah Whatever happened, right, whether she went over or she stayed in the real world and she made this lie,
01:33:27
Speaker
She found peace with what happened with The Departed, but the reason that she is living the way that she is in Australia at the end of the season is because she can't make peace with how she had abandoned Kevin again, with how things were so bad the way that they were before and how they...
01:33:45
Speaker
came at each other at such a weird point in both of their lives to the point where she felt partially responsible. It makes sense why she would be averse to giving herself any kind of traditional happiness. She believes in happiness for her kids, whether she's, she's almost more mad coded in terms of how guilt ridden she clearly is wearing it. Like the, you know, it ah when, when Kevin shows up and that him him doing the whole bit of because watching this the first time like where are they going with this when him pretending to like not have they just met that one night at the dance and that none of the rest of that happened I'm like are we doing another reality again is Lindelof doing that again or like what's what's going on we write another timeline
01:34:31
Speaker
I knew Kevin's tricks that blue Naflick slimy. Fuck. He was there to slide into her fucking panties, you know, like that. That's what that's his goal from the jump, you know? well understandable. The most relatable protagonist.
01:34:49
Speaker
Understandable. Absolutely. Right. But then also like the moves, they're sly, you know, like, it's like the, when When he's on that doorstep and he's pretending like that was like, you know, happenstance meetup.
01:35:04
Speaker
It's wonderful because it's also like telling Nora that her slate is wiped clean. And her as a character at that point. The clean slate. She doesn't believe that she's worthy of that, you know.
01:35:17
Speaker
perception. She feels like, you know, like there's darkness in her and there's darkness in the world. Why are you being so kind to me? Why are you why are you being kind in this way? yeah She says it's not real, you know, like when when he takes her to, do he calls it a dance. It ends up being a wedding. But the point I i wanted to get to that was they have this tradition Of like all the beads are supposed to represent all their sins. And then they put it on a literal scapegoat and then leave the goat outside. You know, you just say some some distance away from us, you know, like just get it away. Like we don't have to kill it, sacrifice it. We're just goat Spanish.
01:35:52
Speaker
But she finds the it it it tied up and she put she wears the beads like that's some Matt shit. Oh, yeah, for sure. because Because again, her arc is not closed fully. She like whether or not she went to this other world.
01:36:08
Speaker
ah Again, it doesn't matter if it's true or not, because when she went to that other world to go down that rabbit hole a bit, she explains how like she saw her family and they had moved on without her.
01:36:21
Speaker
Yeah. There was a new wife in the picture and her kid seems happy. And she was like, you know what? I'm going to go back to my reality. And when she got back there it's to Earth, ah the way that we know it, she didn't seek her own happiness.
01:36:36
Speaker
Right. Like the idea that she believed that they were worthy of their own happiness and that she herself is not worthy of that same happiness speaks entirely to Nora's character. And by Kevin coming back and reaching out to her in this way, And being like, no, you are worthy of this happy ending. it's It's why she is the protagonist of the show in this final season is because she is the one who has rejected the call of empathy. And by the end, she has to learn how to love again.
01:37:06
Speaker
And that's why I choose to believe that that did happen, because I think that's such a perfect parallel to Kevin of like, she has her own version of this like flatlining thing, you know, she got zapped, you know, like, OK, that even if it worked, you were in a thing filling with some liquid and you got zapped with radiation. You're you're willing to kind of.
01:37:28
Speaker
somewhat willing to die if you do that so but then she went to another world kevin went to another plane saw people who had laugh you know like that it and it coming from the source who's least likely she would have never believed anything like that you know ah coming from any anywhere other source but now she has this unbelievable tale like i think i just like the like the juxtaposition of that. So, I mean, yeah, it doesn't matter, but I, I believe that way because i like that idea of like, yeah, well, she is, she is Kevin. That's why there's, that's why they belong together.
01:38:07
Speaker
and Now that we've gotten like the whole like does it matter or not like thing out of the way I want to come on the side of I don't think that she made the trick. I think that she lied about you know crossing over and the main reason I say that. I think Justin Theroux's in your camp. Yeah.
01:38:23
Speaker
The main reason I say that is Matt libs is because like, what is the final thing that we see her doing with Matt, but creating a story of her life, right? The way, ah the way of like, she will be remembered. And in that moment, Matt is complicit in whatever she's about to do. And he takes it to his grave. He says, i I will tell people whatever you want me to. And they decide for it to be,
01:38:51
Speaker
I died. So I... exactly ah Because that's what would be the best... Even if it was real, that would also be her best case scenario of like, well, even if it did work and I went to another world, can't people know and about that? You know, like like that that she's like thinking of like a men in black. We got keep it contained level, but more than like her personal narrative deciding like, no, those things...
01:39:18
Speaker
that make you so you think are special don't happen this woman
Belief, Skepticism & Personal Truth
01:39:21
Speaker
faked the you know the tower guy's departure because they wanted this this thing to have meaning and she's like then she's supposed to be the antithesis of that but then she has her own like death wish experience so yeah intro going is is an interesting narrative thread to bring into this because in the second season he was just kind of seen as this like old coot that was up there but then in that arc we see how in his death his spouse has to kind of
01:39:54
Speaker
apply meaning to this scenario. When Virgil said he was a success story of... Because Virgil asked acted like he kind of knew the hotel somewhat, like that he had taken somewhere there before. He had fought his own demons in a realm like that before. So, yeah, it's...
01:40:14
Speaker
a he's supposed to be like another what if of Kevin, you know, like a ghost of Christmas future, you know, like, yo, that could be me, but that's like not aspirational. You're like that crazy guy in the tower. That's that's the, best' is that the good outcome? Yeah. And it's it's also important to point out too, it's like where with, with this entire series, we've been following Kevin and we bought into his logic because obviously we've been following Kevin's perspective on this, but there's also some ingrained sense of a unified, you like,
01:40:48
Speaker
story. Like there there there is a thing that some of these people can all unite under to where they can see all these things being true, right? Like Kevin
Reality vs Narrative in the Finale
01:40:59
Speaker
Sr. is saying this, seeing the same kind of theology that Kevin is seeing. ah What's interesting with Nora is that like we only see her talk about this like fossilization in a very insulated perspective. We only like, there is no outside character who is able to bounce off of this plot thread ah in a way that's not through Nora herself. And I think that that's very fascinating because that creates a wall around this plot structure where it's like,
01:41:31
Speaker
For the same amount of reasons that I could ah say that it's false, you could say that it's true. Right. That's that's why it's so good. Yeah, that's that's why it's so fascinating. And also, it's a redux on what happened with that loss finale, right? Because what people got up so upset about was this whole, like, was it real or was it not?
01:41:51
Speaker
So much so that, like, Judd Apatow, like, devoted the final act of one of his films to it. Right. thing is, is that, like, in this... It was all real, by the way, in loss. Yeah. People are wondering. Just wanted to throw it there. But but what Lindelof is able to do with this finale is have his cake and eat it too in the sense where it's like you can buy into whatever fantasy you want it to be and your fantasies can be confirmed because there's enough answers for it. But all of that can be thrown out the window because ultimately the character arcs are what matter most. And ultimately all of the character arcs are tidied up with a nice little bow on top.
01:42:30
Speaker
Yeah, even once, because I thought they would maybe leave Lori, like, ambiguous, like, because they have, she has that conversation with Nora, where Nora's like, well, no, they're talking about the people volunteered to get in the chamber, And like, oh, what an elaborate way to kill yourself. And like, oh, they're not there.
01:42:50
Speaker
That's not the best way to kill yourself. Like, I just go scuba diving because all these things could go wrong. And but the idea is she's she you give the bereaved ah out of like, oh, it was a terrible accident. You know, like they have they have an explanation. She says it's clean.
01:43:07
Speaker
you know, like that's like tidy, you know, like it's just like, there's no, no loose end. So that goes more to her inventing a story like that at the end, you know like it can go both ways. Justin Theroux has said for Kevin, it, it didn't like what he said is like how he's like, yeah, he says, of course, I believe it but you're here, but it's like, that he doesn't care. i Like, he's like, Even if she just lied to him, maybe the whole thing. He's like, can we go fuck? Come on, girl. Look, that old old age makeup isn't good enough to not see how hot. Yeah.
01:43:49
Speaker
Right. Or, you know, they like make her look like she aged more than him, which is like the years are fun. I like that they don't give you a year, though. So they the only time stamp is like he says refers to his dad being 91. So I'm like, I feels 15 years feels more appropriate because like Kevin's years like hopping around, falling off roofs in Australia at 81, doing all his drugs. I would only take 10 years if the Perfect Strangers connection was straight like firm, you know, like if Lindelof was like, yes, this is a copy of Perfect Strangers. Oh, it has to be.
01:44:26
Speaker
Maybe. Who knows, right? Like, at the end of the day, the the question remains, and and I like the fact that the question remains. um And, you know, i want to get to something that you were saying with Laurie, right? Because, like, with with her episode, ah there's this whole idea where it's, like, this entire series she has been grappling with, like, how do you move on after something like the departure? And and she's been carrying that secret of the, you know, against her will, ah rapture abortion from everybody um and the the whole concept of her like possibly killing herself with a scuba suit this idea that like her accidental death or seemingly so could just be like a neat and tidy way for her to
01:45:11
Speaker
exit and she no longer has to worry about meaning anymore the ending of her episode is this question of whether or not she goes through with it and then we do get a definitive answer that she didn't kill herself and instead she just went so schema oh unless Nora Nora's on a ghost phone Lori's a ghost and and and and and we saw a ghost baby we saw Jill's ghost baby The kid is dead, too.
01:45:39
Speaker
Well, they should have cut to someone like a walker behind the street and they just see a baby hovering in the air. They're like, what?
01:45:48
Speaker
Finally, some answers. i the the the I do like the reveal of Lori at the end with the baby, too, because it's the perfect, like, she has recovered from whatever she was going through. The fact that, like, she had done all of those things, and by the end of it all, she's able to make peace with the family to the point where she's holding it the child. She takes care of it. when she says she you know She's a good therapist again.
01:46:15
Speaker
I just get the vibe of like be a good mom. Yeah. Yeah. So also like Kevin, she had to make her own. i will not die packed with herself. You know, it's just that's what all these characters are grappling with. Because like, that's what we're talking about. Everything. Everyone expects that all to end on the seventh or the seventh anniversary. They're like the Millerites, you know, like it's like, come on, a world. Let's get this over with.
01:46:43
Speaker
I want to die. And they all think that they have an important piece to play in it. and And with Laurie's version of that, it's the inverse where her viewpoint of the world is about meaninglessness. And and that's why like she was drawn to the guilty remnant. And that's why she is drawn to death at this point in her life as well, where even though she's found some sort of happiness, she still feels the call of the sea.
01:47:08
Speaker
um It's fascinating because it speaks to how, while it's simple to let the darkness win, it's our connection to one another that keeps us lively.
01:47:20
Speaker
The show is ultimately so sappy and saccharine because it takes this route But it also because if you just heard this list of stuff of like, yeah, in the future, Laurie's alive and Jill had a baby. Like, come on. Like, it's almost so like it's just like a Spielberg ending. Like, and I i was saying thats riley like, iberg break's good movie he that's That's pretty good.
01:47:45
Speaker
What can I say? It's the same. Yeah. It's the same deal with Lindelof where it's like people in these positions, ah you know, like people, they use Spielberg as a negative because so many people try to be Spielberg and do it poorly. And ah it's the same deal with Lindelof where it's like people try to do the Lindelof thing and they fail so often. Lindelof can do it so well. And and the thing is is, that he's playing with these mystery boxy, these, you know, what's the answer? What's the not?
01:48:12
Speaker
More so than Lost, he's able to give you, like, whatever answers and you feel content with it because of the arcs of the characters that have been constructed themselves being the thing that's centered rather than, you know, the mechanics of it all.
01:48:27
Speaker
Well put. ah Sorry. i just to drink some water. It's all good. um Something else. ah Like, I think that, like, Tommy, we touched on him briefly. i feel like he has found peace because he is looking up to his father who he can trust.
01:48:47
Speaker
ah He seems to have let go of that idea of, like, he needed the first, you know, his biological father. He needed that kind of relationship to mean something or be something. Like, you know, he he needed, like...
01:49:02
Speaker
Like, why you leave? You know, like you need the, you need an answer, but it's like, do you need an answer? That's the whole show being like, that's not what you're looking for. That's not going to make you happy. And and also like in a weird copaganda sense, it's like he, his entire arc has been trying to help people.
01:49:21
Speaker
And by him becoming a cop, he feels like he's now actually meaningfully helping people. Even if it's just like working at the whims of his Messiah complex father. I mean, Tommy killed a guy like that ATF agent. He shot in the neck or something. You know, like it for him to be there is like, yep no, I've chilled out.
01:49:41
Speaker
You know, it's all the victim of sexual assault. So, you know, like, yeah, no, you know, a lot. He's just fears a lot of things.
01:49:52
Speaker
ah But I also like the toss off line where like, yeah, Tommy's marriage didn't work out so great, but he's doing all right. Like it did. He doesn't even leave that on like a and and it doesn't feel like he know it doesn't feel like Kevin's being falsely like like just trying to sugarcoat. Like, I think he is being honest, like, yeah, Tom's doing like life goes on. These things happen.
01:50:15
Speaker
Sometimes 2% of the population vanishes. I don't know. It's just like one of those things. And it kind of speaks to like, you you brought up Twin Peaks earlier, right? With Twin Peaks, there's like this grand mythology of the world. ah There are answers to some of the surreal questions that you may have with Twin Peaks. And and with this show, it's going like...
01:50:37
Speaker
You fucking asshole. Why are you trying to look for the answers? Like, that's not why you were watching. You were watching because you wanted to see if Kevin Garvey would actually kill dogs. You know? That's what you wanted, you sick fuck.
01:50:50
Speaker
You sick fuck. You just wanted to see that. No, I wanted to see if true love would prevail. and it did. it And it does. and and And I have to, going back to the finale, like, the fact that the finale is just this, like, will they won't they?
01:51:07
Speaker
They're like, that's what you guys have really, you know, like, yeah, afterlife's departures. You know what you really care about, though, is seeing these two get together. Like, fuck, that is what I care about.
01:51:20
Speaker
That was the whole show. Makes sense, too, because, like, we they've been in a relationship since, like, Season one, season two, like the middle of season one. Yeah. That's when they started dating. And then, yeah, once the baby's there, they're just like, oh, we're family. oh we didn't even talk about Lily's birth mother shows up ah once. Oh, yeah. ah Once her back changes her mind and she doesn't, Nora doesn't fight it, but is clearly fucked up about it because there's a whole thing of she has the cast of like she broke her arm on purpose. Yeah. Well, like, i not to pin it on Nora a bit, but like, look, okay, so like, not her baby first off, right? So it's like, I just showed up one day, though. It's just like, it almost feels like she doesn't believe in divine intervention, it's like, God just dropped you a baby.
01:52:13
Speaker
and and and we already know that like nora's connection to any of this like she eschews theology like when when the government was saying that she was completely against it right like she's like signs uh but well with the baby she made the exception exception because she felt that it was going to fill a void the thing with that reveal is that like After a certain point, she understands that like she couldn't fill that void with this child. So it makes sense why she would give it back. But then she also is feeling that pain of losing the child all over again. so it's like damned if you do, damned if you don't. The fact that she took on the baby in the first place was not healthy. The fact that she gives the baby away is not healthy. So she's she's really she there's no winning with her.
01:53:01
Speaker
Yeah, you might as well just crawl into an event chamber and get zapped with like gamma radiation, right? Like turn into a fossil, become the mosquito from Jurassic Park.
01:53:13
Speaker
I'm just picturing a whole park of Nora Durst. Like they like and and they have the feeding cages, too. They have to like lower a Kevin by crane. He's like, oh, he's naked and fresh from the bathtub, you know.
01:53:28
Speaker
Okay. Go back to something you... Oh, sorry. No, I was just... You said Kevin naked from the bathtub. I just have to point out that we've gotten multiple Justin Theroux dong jokes. Like last season, an international assassin, he's getting to pat down before he sees Patty. And the guard's just like, congratulations or something. And then in the when do episode, like dick measuring scanning thing. Each time he uses it, there's a thud to you. Oh, there's some weight to it. This is what I was saying before. I wanted to get back to that episode because like, I think it totally reveals that in some way it's a power fantasy to Kevin himself. And what we were just talking about relates to that. But more specifically, What I love about this idea that he is the president and he needs to make this decision, it becomes a fucking Decker episode. It becomes like... It's so good.
01:54:27
Speaker
It's so stupid, but like awesome. And like the idea that it's all down to Kevin. Again, it's this question of like, is this Kevin's perception of the world or the afterlife? Or is this...
01:54:41
Speaker
a real plane that is assembled itself in this way to make sense to him. And something I wanted to get back to specifically, you were saying that like the missiles were like the end of that reality. I read that different differently, slightly to where it's like,
01:54:56
Speaker
He believes by answering this reality, he's stopping the end of the world. And he believes that that event is him ending the world if he moves through with that. And that action of him letting the missiles rain down is like almost a confirmation that none of it matters. Like it's a free will gesture is how I interpreted that sequence.
01:55:19
Speaker
Yeah, no, yeah there's a lot of ways you can take it. would It's like, oh, yeah, if you thought this was real, like, oh, you're just kind of dooming this world for your own personal arc. but that's what it is right is because like that when he's in that room and and he sees patty again we get the and the introduction of yeah i love it they don't leave any meat on the bone there's like because they have a they're like oh character died let's bring him back we have a world for a place where that happens And the connection to the guilty remnant. And then also in the afterlife, this idea that like Patty is more militaristic to Kevin than Meg is in the world. Even though in reality, we knew that Meg was more militaristic than Patty. Right. It's also an interesting thing to point out.
01:56:09
Speaker
But then it's also like... It's very... so You said Decker. It's also very Silent Hill-y of like how that's... Where... You know, maybe I have played, yeah I've only played sporadic patches of the game here and there, but my interpretation of those is like, yes, it is a specific like manifestation of some like psychic or emotional trauma that this character is working through. But there is a literal, like it's also real. Like there's like purgatory is on earth. Yeah. Yeah.
01:56:37
Speaker
Yeah, I think that that's very much so what's happening in this purgatory afterlife, whatever we want to call it. Like, there there seems to be an amalgamation of it all. and in the And the ways in which there are those juxtapositions are the only confirmations of that for me. But then also it's like...
01:56:55
Speaker
the This arc that Kevin goes through in the second last episode where he is learning to let go and just let the bombs drop um is very fascinating. Like that to me is a way in which he's learning to let go of the things in which he felt was the real world. He thought he could stop the apocalypse. But the reality is, like, if the apocalypse is going to happen, it's going to happen with or without him. and Right. And happier than him or any one person.
01:57:25
Speaker
he also probably feels like he nuked his relationship with Nora. I mean, i hit that fight is brutal. Like I get his frustration because i also felt like a little bit traded season two when he tells her about Patty and then she just leaves and she's like, yeah, I said, I just couldn't deal with you seeing, seeing her. And it's like, you can tell this pain has never been resolved. it's like, they you were just like kind of just moving forward and like not but dissecting that at all. Like they're not going to couples counseling and talking about that moment. Yeah.
01:57:55
Speaker
That fight is perfect, too, because like we buy Justin Thoreau's perspective in that moment. Like we're going like, yeah, Nora, you have been kind of terrible to Kevin. But like as the season goes along, you're also thinking yourself, you're like, well, yeah, Nora's also been going through all of her own shit. And like...
01:58:13
Speaker
of course you'd be kind of clouded to how she's been impacting Kevin in this way. And, and obviously we see by the end, like it's all water under the bridge for Kevin. He doesn't care.
01:58:23
Speaker
Years later, he's still looking for an Australia every single year. And by the way, like the fact that he's doing that every year, I want to know what job he's doing. Is he still fucking. He's a sheriff of, of, of miracle. Like, can he just decide? Cause he's, he refers back to once he drops the act, you know, he you know,
01:58:42
Speaker
He confirms they are like still in Miracle. So he he has like permanent God status there. I think they just let him leave. With that, he can take more than a couple of days of vacation be like, I'm taking a month, two months. I'm finding her this time. The land of Australia yet again.
01:59:01
Speaker
by by By the way, i just love that the fact that like this whole series is built to Australia. Like why Australia? Probably the tax incentives. But, you know, like it's it's very funny that of all places, there's always been a location change with every season. But I would have assumed another, you know, American city, not much Australia.
01:59:23
Speaker
Well, and like, yeah, that was all the way back in ah season one when he was sending the National Geographics that they are like ah like bringing up. Yeah.
01:59:35
Speaker
They were bringing it up. So that is funny that that's... Sorry. it keeps coming back. Starring whoever was in Scarlett Johansson? She in the movie Rough Night. Oh, God, there was that movie called Rough Night. Yeah. and And what's her face from fucking... Broad City. Was in that movie.
01:59:55
Speaker
Oh, also her. Rebel Wilson, I was saying. But you were talking about fucking what's her face? i get the I get them mixed up. But one of the broads from the city... whoa One of the broads from the city. You're right. Was that showing was that show based ah in New York or Chicago?
02:00:11
Speaker
was New York. was very New York show. Like I'm walking here. Hey, when when they do an I'm walking here show, it's a 50-50 on New York or Chicago sometimes.
02:00:23
Speaker
Yeah, that's true. We do be walking here. isn't inspired Yeah. we walk play huffin it's It's a walkable city. It's actually, well, actually, i don't I don't know how walkable we are compared to New York. What's the breakdown? Let me see the stats.
02:00:37
Speaker
ah You know, like based on like personal experience, ah like i would say New York's probably still walkable. I just got to be honest. Yeah, but sometimes there's ghosts and shit. So, yeah yeah, I call some people for that.
02:00:50
Speaker
yeah you're wearing the fucking Ghostbusters shirt, you know. oh I am. i those That was an accident. I did not. actually did not set that up intentionally.
02:01:02
Speaker
i just that's why I went with New York because I was like, you know what? That's the the quintessential New York movie. of <unk> Hey, as as long as you're not saying and like Annie Hall, I think we're good.
02:01:15
Speaker
No, give it 10 years. No, I still wouldn't even when he's dead. mean, it's good movie, but not not putting it up at top. Man, I can't wait for when Woody Allen dies. It's going be such a fucking great celebration. This is going be funny. It's the best jokes.
02:01:33
Speaker
Might be better than Cheney dying in terms of like the just the memes. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Even the people who like Woody Allen's movies are going to be making fun of him when he dies. And that's going to be the best part. That's what he would have He wins either way. That's the sick part. but that is that's That's the sick part. god he He dies like...
02:01:55
Speaker
late eighty s early 90s you know he died and and he died a hero decorated with full honors if you ask dash dasha necrosova maybe you know like geez going deep with dasha ah that's my new podcast actually but post that's a scare that sounds good deep with dasha yeah ah she should just do more podcasts and not act ever again Probably. oh Not a big materialist fan?
02:02:28
Speaker
yeah i don't even like hate hate that movie. That movie's weird. But um it's she weird yeah she's not even in it enough for me to register. That's usually her And it's like, I can't have an opinion of this because this is not like a role. Like you didn't, you just showed up in Mordasha. So I don't know. when when did the acting happen? Look, I was one of the few people who saw Scary of 61st. I think that it's a very interesting cultural artifact and it only gets more interesting as time goes along. But I don't think I can call it good.
02:03:04
Speaker
She's in The Beast. You know, it's like so she there's literally a great movie in her resume, but also not a huge role in that. ah Sorry, how did we get how do we get to?
02:03:17
Speaker
I made some offhanded joke about Dash or Necrosova. I apologize. oh let's get as you should. Leftovers season three. Yeah, yeah. We should always be making offhanded jokes about Dash or Necrosova.
02:03:29
Speaker
Yeah, of course. so Who are the other main... Because we kind of... Everyone's story intersects, so we've kind of touched everyone. yeah Kevin... We covered a large part of the series. No, no, no. I didn't... I'm not saying we're skipping that. I'm just trying to, like, take stock of where where we're at. ah Because there's... Yeah, other shit happened.
02:03:48
Speaker
But... i there's a part when Kevin comes back from this, like whether you want to think that like, yeah, this is just his power of fantasy or some other space that he, you know, had to move on from or both Kevin seniors up on the roof, you know, and he says when the, you know, the rains are coming and he got scared, you know, like that he's kind of, he's like the woman in the beginning is like the Miller, right. You know, but, but instead they're waiting for the end, him
02:04:20
Speaker
reaching high ground because he's scared from a flood that's that's like the opposite of I want to die kind of you're like actually because if you wanted to die you would be like no flood come flood flood flood flood and also it's in it's an echoing of the last wave with that same actor who played Chris for Sunday that it would be a flood that he thought that would be coming um just in the connection of that as well and and also like you know, he thinks that it's some kind of Christian theology, you know, Noah's Ark kind of situation, that that's what's going to play out if the apocalypse goes forward. And it's like, you know, that's not even true to what Revelation says, you know, like he's just kind of whiffing riffing on half remembering the beginning creationary stories rather than like, I mean, he's stumbling upon things and clinging to it as meaning, you know, like regardless of what those voices were, he was hearing, he has no guidance now. He's, he's rudderless and he needs to like, to still be moving forward towards a point like that. He has a mission that he has purpose to the point of what he's offended. His son is,
02:05:31
Speaker
died and and was risen and he believes that but he still thinks he should be the main character of the story oh you know like of of matt's book he's like i'm not in it he's a character in my story which is everyone in this show like this is actually the matt show you know like they all like this i'm main character Well, think about how like we perceived Kevin Sr. in the first season, where like everybody was like, Kevin Sr. fucking rules, and why is he in this lunacy bin?
02:06:03
Speaker
And Kevin, you're right kind of going crazy. you're You're maybe killing dogs. And by the end of this series, series it's completely flipped, and now Kevin Sr. is completely jealous of his own son, and he's also using his son as a proxy in which he can...
02:06:20
Speaker
like find youth again like it like kevin senior doesn't realize what station in life he's at like he's still acting as if like every moment is dire but the reality is is that he's in the late stage of his life and he should be relaxing he should be like reflecting but instead he's still trying to chase meaning because what meaning he built within his own life wasn't enough I think it's significant that the tape that he's listening to, besides the tape that he's trying to get of of this, this song is of Kevin after the mom, his mom died and they were young they went on a road trip and he was like, Kevin's being like a fake report. Whatever kid they got, it was a cute, cute performance by by, by little Kevin. But, but the fact that that's that, yes, he has his mission. Like if he saw, like he, he keeps finding a way, but
02:07:14
Speaker
That means something, that that's what he's choosing to listen to, almost like he's trapped in amber. Because bad shit happened before the departure, bad shit happened after departure. That's a horrible thing, having that happen to your wife, the mother of your child, and then having your son and you having to go on after that. And it's like, I bet a lot of the other pain that those characters are carrying, it's unresolved.
02:07:40
Speaker
you know, that is adding to that tension between, you know, senior and and junior, you know, that it's no one's got over their shit. They just find a new mission. Well, you said it yourself, trapped in Amber. And what does Nora do at the end of the series, but trap herself in Amber, right? And then what is everybody doing in the season? But like,
02:08:02
Speaker
trying to, well, series, I should say, is trying to, like, maintain themselves rather than understanding that people change. that That's the central irony of the show, is that, like, they think that, like, the rapture means something and that something else is coming and that they have to act accordingly. And rather than that being true, much real like real life, you know, tragedies happen and we have to move on, you know?
02:08:32
Speaker
Imagine you're a New Yorker. Imagine you live there during 9-11. Right. Yeah. and And that happens. Why does that? Why? i mean, there are really geopolitical reasons of why that happened. And understanding those geopolitical reasons may give you slight momentary relief, but it doesn't...
02:08:54
Speaker
give you rest. On an existential level, it's why. it it's because it's something, it once something reaches like a certain level, it's like, that can happen? Then like, what's...
02:09:07
Speaker
Does any of it, all this is fair game? Like, you know, like, he's like, what's, what's, what now? It's also this, like, illusion of safety, right? This idea that, like, okay, once I reach X point in my life, everything is okay and nothing will go wrong. And that's just never true.
02:09:25
Speaker
You can never reach that point, even if you have every, well... Actually, I amend that. If you have endless amounts of funds, chances are you can remove that stress. But we're talking about normal people here.
02:09:38
Speaker
Right. We're talking about normal people who like, you know, there is a ceiling on that. And for them, it's like, you know, there's only so much they can do. And then after a certain point, it comes back to reality.
02:09:49
Speaker
Snap back to reality. Oh, there goes gravity. Yeah.
02:09:56
Speaker
um I think i think ice Spice should have made a song for the leftovers. um What's the how's the Spongebob one go? So it'd be like big Kevin. um big ke Kevin.
02:10:08
Speaker
Big guy. Kevin. OK. Yeah. i don't know. She's too old for this. and Her wordsmithery is just too above my comprehension level, so I can't even with that.
02:10:26
Speaker
Star of highest to lowest, one of my favorite movies of the year, ice Spice. The only movie that Fran Lieberman has seen in... Fran Liebowitz? Fran Liebowitz. That's what it was you see?
02:10:40
Speaker
i I swear I saw that post earlier when she was she was saying, kids don't go to the movies anymore. That's not her voice. i don't know why I was like slipping that. It sounded like a beetle. you you You made her like a posh British person instead of like the most Jewish lesbian in New York you've ever heard. Well, it's better that I didn't try that voice.
02:11:03
Speaker
That's more sensitive that you didn't, you know. So as she... schyer it For all intents and purposes, yeah, she's British. But no, did she said kids don't go the movies anymore. I didn't go the movies this year except to see highest and lowest or something. yeah it was like that's exactly just that's the irony.
02:11:21
Speaker
Watching her, picturing her front row. She's watching that A$AP Rocky music video who like with her trunks, there's ass shaking in her face. She's like, yeah, this pretty good.
02:11:32
Speaker
i only need I only need to see one more a year, but... or just one just one does that that That's just her one movie. The year ends and like, yeah, I just... One movie, please. You know, ah like, I'm glad that, like, her one movie of the year was something like that. You know, like...
02:11:48
Speaker
I would be encouraged. i would I would kind of be encouraged if that was the one movie. Be like, oh, okay, things cinema's all right, right? They're letting people do this. They're giving people money to do this. So something's got to be working.
02:12:02
Speaker
You see that Kamala poster in the background. You're like, what's going on here? What's happening here? Is that a new wave I'm smelling? What other things this season...
02:12:18
Speaker
Honestly, we've covered a lot of it. Like, the the thing is, it's like, not a lot happens. Like, it's it's really, like, including just things that we've already known from previous seasons. Yeah, like we said before, like, Kevin has this arc every season, but now it, like, magnifies. It's like, everyone's on their loops, and it it needs to be, like, one final time. Is this enough? Can you get your shit together for once, please, to all of them? and Most of them make it through, you know, that we know, ah you know, like unless they're just leaving out some bad.
02:12:52
Speaker
Yeah. No. Well, I just mean in terms of like how their life is due like because he doesn't bring up a couple of people like do they reference ah what happened to Michael or something in the 10 years later? i don't think there's there's some other people were like, uh, he didn't make it work out with Jill.
02:13:09
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I want know who Jill's husband is. That's a good question. He better be, man, I want to see those scenes. Kevin gar Garvey vetting the guy who's going to marry his daughter, sizing him up.
02:13:25
Speaker
And he probably probably makes a fool out of himself trying to big dog guy, reminds everyone he's a cop or something. i saved her from a burning building do that for her. Like, like he would, you would definitely pull that kind of shit. Then again, like, you know, after you have like the Messiah journey that you have, like with. That's not even the most impressive thing you've done. know, you've like conquered life and death. So.
02:13:49
Speaker
yeah could Could we just interpret everything that happens to Kevin in this season as like a 40 year old going to a place and doing ayahuasca? Oh, that's what I do. it It is the equivalent of that. But I'm like, yeah, it's that. And it's i it doesn't matter. Like, again, it doesn't matter. But i I always cling towards the which one is which versions more amusing to me. And I think it's funny when it's like, oh, yeah, they're not mutually exclusive. of both of those.
02:14:16
Speaker
Going off of that, like for for me, like the the truth of the the finale really doesn't matter. And like i can go either way. And for me, like I end up taking like the most literal approach to it. Like I just I just see this as people lying to themselves for the truth.
02:14:33
Speaker
Mainly because, like, it seems true to who these people are and what they've gone through. So, like, ultimately, it's like, is it a lie? Sure. But it's like what they need to hear. I mean, what ah what is a relationship? It's like a mutually agreed to, like, you know...
02:14:50
Speaker
Whether, yeah, it's it's you've decided that this is what you guys are now. And and that means different things for different people, but like, you know, goals and what they want to the unit to be or or whatever. But that that's, yeah, it's a shared reality you've invented.
02:15:07
Speaker
the The finale of this series is very similar to like the interstitials from when Harry met Sally. You know, like when you see couples that are like, oh, you know, like this is how we met. And like that whole device of Kevin lying about how they met or, you know, their history is in line with that because it's like, what kind of history are we you going to have? When we die, right? Like, how are people going to remember this? And and and the truth is, like, people are going to remember that, like, Kevin and Nora had their own demons and they couldn't truly be together until they settled those demons. And this entire show has been about trying to put those demons to bed. And and the beauty in it is that Nora is able to find the way to put those demons to bed. And, and you know, the question of whether or not anybody can find that, like, if that's true for everybody,
02:16:00
Speaker
I think that the question is there, you know, like if she tells me that to my face and I'm Kevin, I do the same thing. I'm like, yeah, sure. It's true. You know, like I don't know. No follow up question.
02:16:13
Speaker
yeah I probably would have. i've but i But, you know, it's Carrie Coon telling me that. So I'm like, here you say, babe. Hey, the the only man who knows this reality is Tracy Letts, right? And I'm sure he would tell us the same things where it's like you would do whatever, right? And and the the but the thing is, is that like, you know, like there is the world in which Like, let's say Nora doesn't go with Kevin, right? She could live this solitary life with the pigeons where she knows that truth and she knows the routine and she like everything makes sense. But she's helping spread of narrative there to like the conversation she has with the nun about of like, yeah, these these.
02:16:56
Speaker
these messages of like, oh, the birds could get anywhere. And it's like, yeah, they're not, they have a radius of not that far. They're coming back to this one spot. And then I gather them, you know, so, but she willingly tries to find Kevin's message. Right.
02:17:09
Speaker
a But she doesn't, they're just random ones. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Cause yeah, I don't, I don't remember her finding one that was the, right. It says, unless he was doing some sneaky, like, uh, what's that, what's that, uh, thing where people can ask you, uh, anything, but it's like anonymous Oh, I know what you're talking about on Twitter, right? Yeah. I've never done one of those, but yeah. You know you know what this final episode of reminds me of a lot? The fucking before trilogy.
02:17:39
Speaker
Yeah. But they do it all in one. the all They're using the whole the show as like, no, that was that was the the before. we did it We did all three. See, there's three. I did it. Lindelof bows. Yeah.
02:17:53
Speaker
It's like the entire series was before sunrise. And this final episode is before sunset. Yeah. This is like, we went through all of that shit. Are we willing to start again?
02:18:05
Speaker
Are we willing to make this kind of thing Yeah. And the fact that it leans on the side of, yeah, let's, let's give this a go. It speaks not only to like these characters, but to Lindelof himself where he's in a much lighter spar spot in his life. ah He wants to see the brightness in life.
02:18:24
Speaker
ah while also understanding that like the things that draw people to narratives is not ah necessarily the mysteries, but the ways in which we're able to reflect our own realities through these characters, ah which is important when you're in a position like Lindelof, who is forced to like give answers and feed into a sci-fi machine. Instead, he's able to take the step back and go, no, this is a reflection of reality.
02:18:52
Speaker
Yeah. um What do you think it means when the doves come because the doves weren't coming back and she was like checking with the nun. Like, that's why she was talking with her. Like, did you do something different with like their food? Like, you know, the training routine they have set up because like they didn't come back. All of them didn't come back when they were supposed to. and then they come back right at the end.
02:19:13
Speaker
you know, once her and Kevin have, have reconciled. ah So it's like, that's just them. They are are the doves, but, but what if it's what one guy on Reddit said, where site, site of a valuable source here, but we're saying like, that means the the party are coming back to the, do yeah, no, I, I know that's not, that's not happening, but. It's funny that someone would watch that finale and be like, but you know what? This needs some closure. Let's get some answers. Close that loop. Call me Jeff Daniels. We're closing that loop. but ah But for me, the pigeons represent ah closure in a different sense, right? Like the...
02:20:02
Speaker
for For Nora, right, like her entire arc, this entire series has been like, where do these people depart to? Where are they? Can I get to them? Right. Over and over again. And the moment that she stops looking, the moment that she's content with the moment is the moment that the pigeons come back.
02:20:20
Speaker
So like, you know, separate from any literal Reddit theory in which the pigeons are tied to the departed. I like your interpretation. better I think go-go is your...
02:20:31
Speaker
the the For me, it's like she she's so worried in that moment. She's going like, ah, where are those damn pigeons? Like, because in ah in a way, like it's her re resurfacing that trauma again of like mysterious disappearance.
02:20:46
Speaker
ah These pigeons are gone. What the hell? like It's like everyone leaves her like Jesus. it Yeah. And it's like, no, they came back. They come back the moment that she stops looking so hard to find them.
02:20:58
Speaker
and And that's exactly what Kevin did as well, is that she wasn't looking for Kevin. Kevin came to her. She had to leave that shit in the past. Isn't that Christopher Sunday's advice is just to let go when he finally has the conversation with with him? Because, yeah, he says the same thing he said this year. He's like, your dad wasn't listening. This is like, it brings the rain. And like he he's like, yeah he asked, do do you believe your dad can like... You know, like he's a like more incredulous than he was to Kevin Sr.'s face. ah
02:21:28
Speaker
you know, people are different in in this in this world or whatever, but they're like, but he still has the wisdom. and He's like, yeah, well, then why are you here if you don't believe that? Well, it's like,
02:21:40
Speaker
People who believe in ghosts, right? People who believe in ghosts usually have their own trauma. They usually are people who have gone through bad shit. They're from lower income class families, things like that, right?
02:21:53
Speaker
So when they have these ghost stories, the question isn't so much like, are ghosts real? ah But rather, what's going on in their lives for them to believe in a ghost story like this?
02:22:05
Speaker
And that's what the show is. It treats theology as a ghost story, as something that somebody comes up with to make sense of what has happened in this way.
02:22:16
Speaker
and and And with with the Nora here in the finale, like, do we believe that she ah is ready to make that, you know, connection with humanity at the start of that episode? I don't know if that's the case. The reason that the final episode is as optimistic as it is, is is it's the only time where somebody makes that reach out that across the aisle. Like, I'm going to pull you into the arc that you need to be in and it's going to succeed. I'm not leaving you behind. No one left behind.
02:22:52
Speaker
You know, he's he came. He came back for he came back every year. Exactly. They she didn't abandon her. Right. and And I like i like that her instinct is as soon as she hears from the nun that Kevin's asking about her, she's like, seems like she has a go bag. She's like, oh, I inside like like some kind Jason Bourne should like I knew this day would come. It's time for me to burn everything and leave. Man, imagine like she moves to a different place in Australia. he has to like go to and ah that whole rigmarole again. the fact that he's been going to like random cities to find her. Just showing people a picture.
02:23:30
Speaker
like like, and because he's Kevin, I imagine it's not even on his phone. He just has a Polaroid he's like and it's like fading. He's like, look at Look at this photograph. So hot.
02:23:42
Speaker
She was, so she was mine.
02:23:46
Speaker
That's how you should react if you lose Kerry Coon. I mean, because like I said, I understand Kevin's frustration in the moment of that fight. But he knew what he was like. He made a definite choice not just to say, then you should go be with them when, you know, Nora's like, my children aren't, you know, ah I didn't.
02:24:07
Speaker
my children are missing. They're gone or something. And she's like, yeah you should go be with them. And then there's a moment where she's looking him like, are you really? She doesn't say this, but in her eyes, like, i feel like he could have talked it out and saved it from there. mean, cause was horrible to say, but it was closed leaving the room, you know, closing the door. Cause he looks back and he's like, no period. I've decided that that's what I'm leaving this room on. What, what he said was terrible.
02:24:36
Speaker
But also what he said was true. She needed to be with her kids and that he needed she needed to be with her kids in a way that he could never provide.
02:24:47
Speaker
It's the sense of her making peace with herself. and and And in that moment, like when he says that, like we're As an audience, we're we're we're going like, oh, my God, that's terrible. Right.
02:24:59
Speaker
But he's right. he She does need to be with her kids. And and that's what she does. but Yeah. Whichever interpretation you take, that's what that's how she gets through it. hmm.
02:25:10
Speaker
It's what she needed. and And Kevin is being really mean to her when he says that. But he's what she needs. it's So it's what makes this season so fascinating. Yes, I agree. Kevin has done nothing wrong ever. Perfect. That's why he's he's the Messiah.
02:25:27
Speaker
Patty and him are the true ship, you know? Whoa. Like him him and Nora, who cares, right? I want to see Kevin come in that chalice.
02:25:39
Speaker
I want to see Patty drink it down. You turn the show off after he nukes the other world. You're like, oh, no more Patty. Done. Show's over. i i view that rooftop sequence where the missiles are coming down. Like I turn that off like it's a fight club ending. Patty's like his.
02:26:02
Speaker
same song it never came back it never came back he keeps doing a different thing each season just like he did this episode every episode of this season every season has a different relationship with music and like the licensed songs they use because yeah they do bring back they bring back season one intro for one of them which is interesting that that's for like no that's when kevin goes dies again we're giving this like holy significance oh
02:26:30
Speaker
And then last episode, let the mystery be just reiterating, like, just in case you forgot, that's what we're doing. I honestly felt as though the changing of the songs for each episode was a missed opportunity, like beyond the perfect strangers episode, which To be fair, now that the series is over, like the perfect strangers theme could have been the theme of the show. Like, like that makes sense now thematically with it all. And that makes of sense. Hold on. I need to go to the bathroom one more time.
02:27:14
Speaker
Okay, The Perfect Strangers, that's that's the best use of that season three, you know, different song openings. But there's ones, I don't even have a deep connection with Gravediggers. Like, that wasn't, like, in terms of, like, 90s hip-hop collectives. They weren't, like, my thing. But there is crossover, you know, like, some of their guys would be on, like, Wu-Tang people would be on some of their tracks or something. But when that Lori episode opens with 1-800-SUICIDE and just how it syncs with, like, the voided-out people. I was like levitate. I was like, oh, fuck. and You found the best use to use the best. Like i no other show doing this needle drop would feel right. And it's like on the nose as hell. But it's like fucking it's good, though.
02:27:59
Speaker
ah Also, you invoke the Wu-Tang reference. And I just want to dwell to the the the idea that like the Wu-Tang band, the Wu-Tang band. That's right.
02:28:10
Speaker
I love because because the choice of Wu-Tang specifically, and I say this as somebody who likes Wu-Tang, but like Wu-Tang as a band, their symbol, it's it's reached that point kind of almost like the Nirvana smiley face where almost meaningless.
02:28:25
Speaker
Right. Yeah. So ubiquitous that its symbol is just kind of like. what she's She called it a phoenix. She's like, it looked like a phoenix. So I said that one. Yeah. i think the The idea that like to her, the the symbol meant that little to her and that's what the Wu-Tang Clan symbol is. And then it becomes this like symbol of her getting over her children departing.
02:28:48
Speaker
I think that's kind of beautiful, even if it's using the Wu-Tang Clan in that way. i i Like it's not expected, but I think it's wonderful. And yeah it is wonderful. And then you also get like, we don't, I mean, this is why he had to like write her a show, you know, like the's the Watchmen exists. So he was like, oh, we need to give, um wow, this is a big brain fart. How am I forgetting her life? John's wife. Oh, Regina King. King. Yes.
02:29:17
Speaker
One of them. there's There's a lot of them running around. Got your halls, your kings. Yeah. Yeah. There's probably other ones. And of a lot of grandiosity with those Reginas. Oh, you think you're a whole whole?
02:29:32
Speaker
oh yeah I never. Oh, you you're a king, eh? The more appropriate language would be queen. don't know. I was going to make a dumb non-binary joke. But...
02:29:46
Speaker
Okay, so Erica, Regina King, do you know why Lindolf was like, I got to write a show for her? But just the one scene she's in, I mean, her and Nora are great scene partners. So that was already a given this was going to be a great scene. But Erica's like already reached the point that they need to all get to kind of like her daughter was killed in a drone strike. Like she yeah has every right to be She could be Nora Dursting right now. She'd be knocking over fucking shit in coffee places and being like, whoops. And be like, oh, Erica, I'm sorry. You know, because like everyone's agreed to say that like, oh, yeah, it was a gas leak. And, you know, the but they all know. Like it was like, yeah, that's fucking awful. That happened to you. I'm sorry. But, you know, she did. She got a fucking trampoline.
02:30:36
Speaker
Trampopoline. With Erica, it's like she was over it before season two started. She was so far ahead that she was going to leave her family. that's not far bankker route It's horseshoe theory. It's like, there's one to leave your family because you're fucked up like Kevin. Then there's one to leave your family because you're Erica, because you just, you so you got so figured out.
02:30:58
Speaker
You're like five steps
Rational Beliefs & Misunderstandings
02:30:59
Speaker
ahead. You're smarter than everybody there. Everybody around you thinks they're fucking Jesus. And you're just like, whatever, man. listen And she's even seen a bird come back to life. I'm sure she but is like, yeah, sure. That's there's real magic. Like if John told her I shot, I killed Kevin. He came back to life. She probably like, OK, maybe. Yeah, sure. yeah everybody believes in stupid shit everybody has like a thing or two they believe in that you know makes no rational sense i believe i could vibe out a chimpanzee you know that's not true a chimpanzee would tear off my face you know yeah but i'm i'm different be like he'll he'll just said he'll know he'll just like this guy is cool and we fist bump up right yeah but like everything will be chill you know but that's not the case that's not reality and erica lives in that reality she is she is so you know she doesn't need comfort in the way that these people find in lies that's that's what theology is yeah she she's not clinging to any oh he saw he saw erica or he saw or not that erica what's the daughter's name um
02:32:10
Speaker
The one that Kevin was thought he was seeing. Erica, isn't it? evi Evie. Evie. Evie. Erica's the mom. Yeah, Evie's the the girl. But she's not being like, Evie's still alive. Which we didn't even talk about leading up to that whole... The you know the reason Kevin and Nora have that big fight is that he's been seeing Evie in Australia. and And another show, this could feel like a cheat to be like...
02:32:34
Speaker
He's not seeing her. No, you see, you and you see, they show you the like, no, this is actually what was on the phone. It was this, it was this woman this whole time. Not, not Evie. Just hate crime to woman.
02:32:46
Speaker
no He looks so insane from the perspective of people. Like the guy walked by the alley, saw him just feel like, oh, I know it's you.
02:32:58
Speaker
he's back he's back to his fucking like white dress at the like uh dry cleaners place again yeah like he's he's acting in that same kind of way but because he sees himself as this larger piece of this giant puzzle he is again losing sight of how he's coming across as well as like how he's impacting these people's lives Yeah. And Laurie, the scene with him and Laurie is great because she like once I was like, you called me for a reason with the Evie stuff because you like almost like there's like some kind of instinctual pull for these people to be like, yeah, I know we're broken, but you're just moving this direction. you'd be like something there. Yeah.
02:33:45
Speaker
Yeah, so the that he'd like but the part of him wants to like you know the part of him that wants to not always want to be dying, like like he seems to be be very into and that is not self-destructive, is like, yeah, I'm having like a delusion. But then it's not like the show being like, and then everything else like will flash back and show. It's like Beautiful Mind, all of it was fake. They're not saying that. They're just saying he didn't... that Physically in that space, Evie was not there, but he saw her, you know, whether that was whatever that was, you know, you know i mean?
02:34:19
Speaker
He, he was looking for something is the thing i the way I take that is like, he was looking. He's just he's just like all the rest of it, just like Kevin Sr., like following all the signs like that's it was just like there's sign inception because he sees her on good day, Melbourne. And then when he goes to investigate it, Kevin Sears, I saw you on the TV.
02:34:40
Speaker
Exactly. It's his delusion feeds into the delusion of his father in that way. It's it's perfectly least so so cyclical in that way. And then it's also like it it's also a sins of their father's kind of scenario. Right. Because it's like his father is the one who's kind of been the driving factor in him believing in himself being the Messiah this entire time. Right. Because he saw how people treated him.
02:35:07
Speaker
Like respectable people were like, yeah, it's fine. You know, it's like, wait, if he's not crazy, then I'm everything is real. It's the same thing with John being like, it has to all be real. It's like it can't it can't be it can't be some of it. And then maybe some of it was us working through us. I'm like, no it has to be everything.
02:35:28
Speaker
Double or nothing. It's the same thing with religious people. That's what it
Unconventional Storytelling & Existential Questions
02:35:32
Speaker
is, right? like and And what I like about the show is that while technically it has its roots in theology, um it's mission statement is so removed from any kind of traditional morality. It is more so based in ah how do you live now? And I think that you only find that kind of quality in like the most sensitive of honest art, really. That's why the show is special. Yeah.
02:36:02
Speaker
Yeah, it is special. There's nothing else like it. i mean, because it it is, you know, it's it's not like it's a complicated thesis of it being like no one actually has the answers. And that's not even fully they're digging the the human tendency to need those, not even.
02:36:20
Speaker
you know, there's pretty fair depiction of some, like there's people have lot of different kooky beliefs that we see in the show, but then there's like the genuine people who just want to be nice, like Michael, who's like faithful and stuff. So they're not like mocking it, like the idea of it. They're just saying like, this is what it's been serving, you know, as a social function that people need this coping and like that, that's what it's used at. But yeah, it shows, you know,
02:36:49
Speaker
ah Not not being like those people are fucking idiots. I believe that malarkey. And then also, like, let's take a step back and let's talk about the show from a metatextual standpoint. Right.
02:37:01
Speaker
What is a television show but a story we tell ourselves to make sense of the life that we live each day? Right. Like a TV show. We're here. We just watched The Fable. Right. You know, instead of like a book of the Bible, you know, it was like we just saw a live action version of that.
02:37:17
Speaker
Biblical epic isn't dead. They did it on HBO. But then also it's like we watch the show. We make these connections because in a way we're also reaching for some kind of meaning within our own lives. It's why anybody interprets any kind of piece of art. Right.
02:37:32
Speaker
So the. whole interpretive basis of leftovers is also tied into its narrative thrust it's a piece of art that's asking you to ah come to terms with its being while also unashamedly just being and i think that's what makes it so valuable as a TV show and what the season illustrates so well is that beyond any of your own expectations it first has to exist And it it it manages to understand its own rhythms in order for it to exist, where it's able to be this kind of like weird dog killing storyline mixed with Jesus ah and Messiah imagery, while also being this thing of a people learning to let go of their ah guilt and their ah hangups. it's It's a perfect show because it's able to cross and thread all of these needles.
02:38:31
Speaker
Yeah, but where were the kids' shoes? there No. Look, I'm not so obsessed with feet, so I'm not asking this question. I need all these mysteries answered. I'm going to a Q&A with Linda Lossette. I'm like, hey, over here.
02:38:44
Speaker
Oh, I love that. day he goes He goes there. He finds the kids. He's able to kind of find it. It's like a video. video game meal whenever he goes over there. So he's able to be like, oh, I got these side quests. I need to fight, speak to these people, these people. And then, yeah, the kids are there. He asks what happened to his shoes. they're like, we don't know. He's like, there's not going to be a satisfying answer to that. I don't know. Your children died. Why do you care about where what happened to the shoes?
02:39:11
Speaker
And also like the the the detail of the shoes matters to their mother more than the kids. Right. Right. Like when when they pass, do you think that that's the thing that they care about? You know, no, not really. To the point that she's willing to murder the wrong Kevin Sheriff just to that seemingly that was the only other communique that she wanted to have with with her children. And so it's like, I got I really wish I could ask my kids that.
02:39:38
Speaker
Oh, wait, there's a guy who can like go and ask dead people stuff. It's got be this guy. And the fact that she has a, who are those other women? who Posse. Like, what do they want? We know her backstory. While she's doing this, they all have some quests that they would give Kevin. Like, oh yeah, I got a dead, I got a dead person. i young I'm trying to do my Australian accent. Laser disc.
02:40:02
Speaker
Well, well, like, what have we seen this entire show? But like people who have been charismatic cult leaders who are able like entice people into their realms. That's what she does in that sequence, you know, by being able to have those women who are also on her side. Because they're continually questioning it of like, what if it's not him? You know, like they're just dunking a guy a whim. The only question they asked was, your name Kevin? And he's a sheriff. So they're like, well, there's no way there's other Kevins that are sheriffs. So...
02:40:36
Speaker
It's him. The only good thing about that mistake is the fact that that Kevin was kind of an asshole. Yeah. You were like, yeah, no, he wasn't being nice to his employee or he didn't seem like even that great a cop. You know, there's just women. There's women gathered on horses outside his house. He's like, fuck off then. Yeah. he's and ah He's just mad at them the whole time. He doesn't even go through the begging stage of, oh no, no, no, don't do it. He just calls them cunts. They're dipping them. It's very Australian. Very Australian. Yeah, boom. yeahp
02:41:14
Speaker
It's crazy they made up this whole kingdom just for the show. so so Some would say Kingdom Hearts. Australia itself is Kingdom Hearts. It's one of the worlds in the next one. You can visit...
02:41:27
Speaker
you know, Tron or I guess now a Disney owns a lot of stuff. You can go anywhere. So I'm making the argument that like Australia is like the final level, you know, like it's, it's the, it's the place from nowhere kind of thing, you know, like that's where we fight organization 13. exactly.
02:41:42
Speaker
this is exactly song good become like a deep Kingdom Hearts lore talk. We could add another four hours on here for that.
02:41:53
Speaker
The biggest question would be, do you replace Donald or Goofy with Kevin Garvey? And and for me personally, you keep Donald, you replace Goofy with Kevin. they Kevin is the Goofy. i mean, he just doesn't have the voice. He's like, oh, Quarsh, Quarsh, why you just dip me in your pool?
02:42:14
Speaker
ah season one Kevin and Jill is kind of little bit it's like pretty much the same arc instead of dancing on stage at the power line concert he goes into a burning building which is a kind of dance do we see the slide he like slides in there it's like almost you could put the yeah Speed it up and just put on risky business.
02:42:43
Speaker
These guys got Jews listeners. Like, you know what to do. Like. I'll probably. I'll probably do it out of boredom just because of that idea just went into my mind now. Yeah. Yeah.
02:42:56
Speaker
um Yeah, so all mysteries solved. We have the answers to everything. And that was the point of the show, right? That was that was what our takeaway should be. ah Yeah, ah we we hold... Oh, David Burden dying is very funny.
02:43:13
Speaker
Like, i mean, we know he dies all the time, right? But imagine what was he doing before he... ended up with Kevin in this lobby. He just like fling himself off something again. or Like, is he, dream how is he doing it? Like Kevin's is clean. It's just drowning. Let's just do water suffocation, you know, but, um, so and don't no, no, no, don't do it. Um, um,
02:43:36
Speaker
um Yeah, but the fact that... don't see Burton after he dies. week He's not in like the final thing. We hear him. He's like on the... When Kevin goes back there the final time. Yeah, he's like in the earpiece giving directions. And is dating Meg, I guess. he's like Because she's like with a man God.
02:43:57
Speaker
a Good pun. Funny joke. Everyone laughed. Ugh. But like, i like for me, like he is not God. He is just like Kevin where he's able to like he he's like Tim Heidecker in Decker if he were to like have the resources. And then Kevin Kirby is Tim Decker in Heidecker in reality where he doesn't have the resources. And it's just his facsimile of how to make that thing real. Right. Oh, absolutely. i mean, the ending the episode iterates that he is just a man because the cops come. He's running. You know, he's not like if you were God in that self-confidence, you'd be like, take me. I know I'll be free. He's like, oh, he's like, oh, our chances are the lion. It's mauled by a lion. And just the way Matt deadpans turns around to them. That's the guy I was telling you about.
02:44:47
Speaker
Yep. a plus lion should have fucked them should fucked mad or uh burden uh no matt should have fucked the lion burden should have been fucked by the lion okay that is a distinction over the food chain you know like who who who has got the biggest balls yeah that that tracks and matt it was correct he did they find a a person overboard he did fucking kill a guy yeah That's why the police are there.
02:45:13
Speaker
it's It's proof that, like, he's not God. It's proof that... Because God, act the actual God, could kill with impunity. you diseases never He's never going to court for that shit. Exactly. And the fact that this guy who calls himself God would be so scared, as you pointed out, by the authorities to take his chances with the lion. Yeah, exactly. He's a fraud. He's a, you know... Well, he and he's like, he he's probably, you know, James Franco in the noose and, ah you know, Buster Scruggs. He's like, first time, whatever, lying. Worst case scenario, it mauls me.
02:45:46
Speaker
I'll be back. And then I hope he doesn't, you know, Kevin nukes that world and he's gone forever. Deserves it. He has some interesting ideas. David Burton.
02:45:57
Speaker
He has a little card with it's like, uh, like the things he doesn't, doesn't take responsibility for. He's like, Mary, her word against mine. Like, I don't claim, you know, man, like you don't claim paternity. And then the G the resurrection, that was just his identical twin brother, which then they do the riff on with Kevin, the most identical, the most powerful man in the world and his identical twin brother. It's just a fun... The show knows it can have fun like that with us because it's like trusting us as audience members. Like, hey, not many people were already watching this show. If you're still here, you're into this.
02:46:34
Speaker
It's playing to those seats. Well, it's like we we know that the show was shortened because of, you know, them not being able to get whatever season... The show was made because Damon Lindelof is Damon Lindelof. And then the audience didn't really show up. And then they kind of just gave it whatever pity season to wrap things up.
02:46:55
Speaker
Like we have to at least give it like three seasons. Yeah. None of this was owed. We were put in a position where all this stuff is a bonus. Right. And rather than taking this as a way to close up all of the arcs in the neatest way possible, Lindelof and crew were just like, how do we make this the most effective, like emotionally impacting thing? And I think that the that counts for something more so than, you know, any other kind of TV show i usually watch where, you know, it it feels like there's filler to get to a point. This this has a purpose. Every episode is purpose.
02:47:29
Speaker
It all matters. You know, like that's like... The freeing... On the flip side nihilism, it's like there's no one inherent meaning to it. You're like, yeah, but you find the meaning. So, like, all of it can matter, you know? Like, it's it's the antithesis to what the guilty remnant believe of, like, yeah, the end of the world happened. So, like, let's get on with it, you know?
02:47:50
Speaker
But it's like, no. Something... A weird shit happened. And then... But the life will continue. Well, will on that note of...
02:48:00
Speaker
Exactly that with the guilty remnant. Like it's it's this idea that like ah people think that nihilism itself is an answer. But it's like if you don't have an answer that supplements that, then you're just living empty.
02:48:12
Speaker
Right. Right. So it's like you still need an answer. Right. Whether or not it's real in quotations or not doesn't matter. As long as you have an answer that like is able to conceptualize it in a way that makes sense. Nothing is an answer. Yeah.
02:48:27
Speaker
Like, and that that was like the appeal of their message. Like, that was like what people were feeling in the wake of that loss. Like, yeah. they They failed because that that message was short term. It doesn't have ah a solution. The only solution that the guilty remnant could find was through their leader. Right. They don't they don't seem to have a presence after the time jump. There's the protesters talking about like what happened because, yeah, that was a human rights violation of the visitor center. But like in terms of their actual belief system, we don't see anyone in white. ah They're they're lot of them are dead. So they're over there. Yeah.
02:49:05
Speaker
Yeah. ah We did it. That's pretty much, yeah, we did it. we like That's pretty much all I got to say about Leftovers season three.
02:49:15
Speaker
um It's what a ride as good as season two, I would say, but I think that the conclusion is the best the series ever gets.
02:49:26
Speaker
I think it's the in the best possible way they could have concluded it. Like given the circumstances we laid out of like, yeah, whatever original series length plan they had, or if you they had any rough plan, it's like you got a shorter season. You got to finish it up.
02:49:42
Speaker
Yeah. They're very, they make use out of their time, but it also isn't, it does still feel like the show takes its time in a good way. Like that it's not a lot of, like you said, like not a lot happened. It's but it's weird because it sounds like it should be plotty. We listed a lot of things that happened, but it's also kind of have the vibe of like,
02:50:02
Speaker
o and We're kind of just hanging around, see if the world ends. You know, it's not it's not that serious.
Embracing Mysteries & Podcast Conclusion
02:50:07
Speaker
It's a sitcom. Like, it's the perfect strangers thing where it's like every episode was like, maybe this is the answer to our problems. And it never was. And and nor did we ever really believe it. You know, like we were always challenging that stuff. So it's like it it it always taught us what the right ways in which to watch the show was, while also indicating to us that like the regular ways the shows are made is not the breadth in which this show is cut.
02:50:39
Speaker
Yeah, everything doesn't need to be like that. Just let the mystery be. Yeah. You got a career in country after this?
02:50:51
Speaker
There's a snake in my boot. ah Okay. So we close in the book, leftover season three. Do you have anything you want to plug? or Yeah, you find the rest.
02:51:03
Speaker
I'm at the Doug files. or you you know ah You're here. This is what matters. So, you know, why why are you going to go somewhere else? don't Stay here. Let the mystery be here, nowhere else.
02:51:16
Speaker
Because we have the answers. That's right. let is announcing we're starting our own cult.