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S3E3 The Career Coven: The "Let Them" Theory
32 Plays2 days ago
This week's episode is on the “Let Them” theory. A controversial theory, which can be summarised as a mindset and boundary-setting approach that encourages emotional freedom and letting go of control over how others behave.
At the core of this idea is that you can’t control other people's emotions, so you shouldn’t worry about it. In this episode, Annie and Bec give their hot take on:
- What are the positives of this theory? When is it helpful
- Is this just giving up, and giving up influence?
- What would happen if we stopped engaging with complex issues at work
- How “doing hard things” is part of work, and this theory does encourages being passive
- The benefits of productive rage
- Is “caring a little less” better advice for women than men?
- How this helps people pleasers
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Transcript
Introduction to 'The Career Coven' Podcast
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to The Career Coven, the podcast for serious careers with unserious chats. I am Bec, a coach, corporate citizen and recovering perfectionist. And I'm Annie, workaholic, learning boundaries, slowly.
00:00:20
Speaker
In each episode, we unpack career challenges and workplace wisdom through honest conversations, practical tools and a healthy dose of real talk, so you can thrive on your own terms. Shall we get into it?
00:00:32
Speaker
Today's topic, Rebecca, is...
Exploring 'Let Them Theory' and Its Origins
00:00:36
Speaker
quite a juicy one it's on let them theory yeah topical as well well depending on when this actually airs but um a lot of noise around this particular theory in the last few months which you they spent a lot of money on their marketing budget my god yeah they have and and the person who allowed me to this was you of course it was your pop culture guru But then subsequently, we have heard about this on some of our favorite podcasts, like Shameless did an episode on it.
00:01:09
Speaker
Anyway. I wish I'd listened to that before this. What an idiot. Oh, that's a good one. That was, that would be one of my like racks. We'll put it in the show notes. But okay yeah, it's, it I think it's a different, it's going to be a different angle to us. It's a very different show. Okay, great. Well, I learned about Let Them Theory at my coaching course. Like everyone was talking about it and I was like, I don't know this thing. I'm so out of touch. And then, and then it exploded. Yeah.
00:01:35
Speaker
after that but we're obviously talking about the kind of theory brought together by Mel Robbins and it is a book I'm pretty sure it's a podcast it's lots of different things I also don't think this is Mel Robbins first bit of kind of pop psychology is it agreed no i have like I have some thoughts I don't know how quickly we want to get into Mel, but i do I do have some thoughts because she is, she's, I think, what would she have been called in the past? Maybe a motivational speaker, you know?
00:02:08
Speaker
And now she's like, I think calls herself like a psychologist or something. Anyway, what is she? Is she a, she's a leadership motivator?
00:02:19
Speaker
I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Is that what we are? Are we leadership motivators? I don't think so. Maybe. um Maybe we should also be pop psychologists as well. We put that in the bio. Before we get into it today, what have you been up to since we last recorded, Annie?
00:02:36
Speaker
um Working until I almost collapse, of course. And yeah, planning the weddings. I mean, there's so little of interest going on here. It's like, that's why I said in this particular episode, it's like learning boundaries very, very slowly, to be honest with you.
00:02:53
Speaker
Because, yeah, it's like work and wedding and then trying to sleep. have to admit I'm absolutely exhausted, but I'm not in bad form.
00:03:04
Speaker
What about you?
00:03:07
Speaker
Excellent. i We've just had a couple of weeks by the seaside, which has been really nice. We took a decision and had an offer accepted on a old house fixer-upper, our first family home.
00:03:22
Speaker
it is going to be great. It smells a lot like 40 years of the same family have lived there, which is its current state of affairs. Smells a lot like their house.
00:03:34
Speaker
So, you know, it's the ah we're on the up. We're looking positive by the end of the year. I'm sure everyone will get to hear how that goes every week that we record as I slowly lose my
Understanding 'Let Them Theory' as a Mindset
00:03:44
Speaker
sanity.
00:03:44
Speaker
But please keep us updated on the renovation madness. I also really want you to know that cat is a hard smell to get out.
00:03:57
Speaker
like I don't actually even think the cat is the worst smell. There is clearly like like generations of 14 year old boy that have been in one room and I literally cannot be in there for more than half a second without retching which is a sort of leftover from my pregnancy but I don't even know what that room looks like because I can't go in so you know this is what we're up against I'm gonna crack some windows open but really excited ah for what it will be so really looking forward to that and just really looking forward to today's episode so Annie
00:04:29
Speaker
For the uninitiated, in case anyone's been living on a rock, let them theory. It's about what? Releasing control? is that what we're going to call it? Look, you and are coming from really different angles on this podcast. So you're going to have to do the heavy lifting on why it's a good thing.
00:04:46
Speaker
Okay, okay. I think I can do that. Though I would say, when you first flagged it to me, I did hate it So it's been a journey. And and perhaps that is what's what's interesting. So I think my understanding of let them theory, which is very concise, is that it's a sort of mindset and approach to boundary setting that that encourages people to basically ignore what other people think of them.
00:05:11
Speaker
And just, yeah, it kind of gives you permission and gives you the right to like not worry about what other people think of you and and and focus less on how your actions impact other people.
00:05:25
Speaker
And yeah, it's like, kind of maybe liberating, or I think that's the intention, because it's basically like, if people don't like you, let them not like you. Doesn't matter. Not your problem.
00:05:40
Speaker
Their problem. If people want to not invite you to a party, doesn't matter. Let
Skepticism Towards Pop Psychology Theories
00:05:45
Speaker
them. It's not your problem. So I think it's coming from a place of kind of like real... real like power and autonomy.
00:05:53
Speaker
don't know. That's what I think about it now that I've put this positive spin on it What is your understanding of Let Them? So I put this in a category of like pop science slash psychology that is basically targeted people who stop in a WH Smith's at the airport and they're like, so okay, I've got Eight days plus flying days to change my life. And this book's on 50% off and it's number one in the charts. So I'm just going to buy it and transform my thinking. And it will take 200 pages when the concept could probably be described in 15.
00:06:37
Speaker
And like, it just to me feels like, I don't know, I went on holiday recently and there was a lot of people reading Jay Shetty. And this to me feels in a similar camp of like, I'm an, I'm a sort of evolved and empowered thinker. And there's, here's this silver bullet that I'm going to teach you.
00:06:58
Speaker
And I just don't, I just don't ever think there's a silver bullet in life. So yeah, that's true. That is true. I think, I think you ain't wrong there. Okay. Okay. But you're, yeah, so you so youre you're like putting it, you're putting it into airport trash as a category.
00:07:15
Speaker
Airport nonfiction. Airport nonfiction. I love airport fiction, to be clear. Okay. Okay. Good, good, um good distinction, I think, to make for the listeners.
00:07:25
Speaker
And you're like, you're saying it's like a category of self-help that is a bit... maybe a bit kind of basic. Is that fair? Yeah, I just sort of feel like there are some things in the book.
00:07:39
Speaker
Actually, have I did not read the the book, but I did do my research on this. So for people who are going at me after I've finished talking about research that's not Mel Robbins
Application of 'Let Them Theory' in Professional Life
00:07:50
Speaker
authored,
00:07:51
Speaker
I think there are some basic and core things in there which are like sort of really obviously true. ah don't think you need to read a book about them, although it's nice to be reminded about them. But, you know, it's things like having a kind of internal locus of control. And by that, I mean, like, you know,
00:08:09
Speaker
I can only control what I control. What's that like? My Nana has a fridge magnet with it on it. Yeah. yeah You know, have the courage. Control controllables kind of thing. ya Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget what, I think it might be like an old prayer or something. like This for me is like fridge magnet territory. Okay. feel sort of like yeah psychological platitude, I suppose is where I'm coming from.
00:08:30
Speaker
But, ah you know, there is a ah ah good point around it in that it's meant to be stripping out, basically resenting people. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's great. Like, I would love not to resent people, but like, is that realistic? Like, totally not.
00:08:47
Speaker
a But, you know, I think there's also like things that you can learn about if you resent someone. i think there's like learning around a range of emotions. So, yeah, I mean, choosing peace, yes. love Love a peaceful life.
00:08:59
Speaker
but And like this sort of verges on ah super watering down of like, Buddhism which as a philosophy I'm kind of more you're into I'm into it I like it yeah but you know emotional detachment from from what's going on and I have given the advice previously like care a little less to help you cope so not that I want to sound like I'm I'm supporting it but I've just told you all the things that I'm into about it, but I've got quite a long list of things I'm not into about it.
00:09:30
Speaker
So why don't you just tell me why you're into it? Because you've been, you've been like in practice. Yeah, for sure. Using it, right? And I think like that, as you were saying that, I was like, there is almost, it's almost so high level that you can't disagree with with its core.
00:09:52
Speaker
It's of like, yeah you know, you can't control how people react to you. Like, that is just a fact. But I think that the reason I have started to really use it after you flagged it as something that you didn't like was, I think in the workplace, I care about everything.
00:10:11
Speaker
I care about my every person in my team. I care about people in my wider team. Sometimes if I hear a problem, I just care about someone I've just met. And I think that that's I've always told myself, like, that's what makes me a good leader.
00:10:25
Speaker
But it's also very tiring. Right. As we've as we've discussed, because it's just so snappy. It's like, let them, you know, I've picked up as a phrase. I'm just like, let them, you know.
00:10:36
Speaker
And um that's been quite like, it's been quite good. I think it's been quite like empowering. but I think that is from someone who ultimately would index so heavily on the not letting them in the workplace.
00:10:50
Speaker
Yeah, I was just thinking like when you were saying that and you like snapped your fingers then and I was like, is this just the more polite way of just saying fuck off?
00:11:01
Speaker
Like, yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's fuck off, but though the way I channel it is more like, oh, you fucking are. Do you know i mean? It's like, I'm not going to do it. And I'm like, yeah, yeah.
00:11:15
Speaker
And I think probably if I was a little just more, if my style was a bit more direct and ruthless in my actual leadership, then I think this could be like really positive because if anything, you know, I'd like one of my development areas is that it's, you know, I like peace.
00:11:34
Speaker
I like to, I like to make it peaceful, but in startups, that's usually bollocks. So I think that like, it's just so easy for me to be like, it's sort of like, don't worry, just let them, let them freak out.
00:11:49
Speaker
Don't spend time on it. Like, um, and I honestly, I have found myself thinking like, this is the best leader I can be. oh it's to just say, cause you, cause you just can't make everyone happy all the time.
00:12:03
Speaker
And maybe that was something that I just wasn't that good at. Whereas now I'm like, fuck it. Yeah. Don't just let them just let, just let them cause otherwise you don't get anything done.
00:12:14
Speaker
I mean, I've worked in lot of really high conflict roles. And I think i I've just like become desensitized to it. So maybe that's why I don't find this like that light bulb for me. I'm like, I don't know, when I was working on COVID and i used to sort of just get like, I became like the figurehead for like whatever stupid thing Boris Johnson was doing. And then like, I'd have to like host ah an external stakeholder meeting with like 30 people on it who would yell at me for decisions that Boris had made. And I'd just be like,
00:12:46
Speaker
yeah And I just think, babe, every conversation we've ever had, it's so clear that you are so precise and direct and great as a leader, but you just don't need this.
00:13:00
Speaker
you know i mean? you're not you're You're definitely not unkind. like you're know like There's no part of that that is negative. It's just like, you're just so clear on like what needs to happen. And you're just like, well, do you either just do it or just leave. like you know There's only like two things. It's either you just do your job or just don't do it. And if you don't do it, then what are you doing here? And I think I've learned a lot from like how kind I know you are and how what I know all of your colleagues think of you.
00:13:32
Speaker
But also that just like complete clarity of like, no, we are just going to do this. We're going to get it done. Just move on. You don't like it. Just move on because this is what's happening. We've caught a lot of blowback. But I think that's also the difference, right, is that you come from much more of a product background, which is generally speaking where you're trying to get everyone aligned around different areas and issues.
00:13:55
Speaker
um to have their goals met and so on. And I think that that kind of role has to be inherently harmonious to function and get stakeholders on side. Whereas like, is this the same as the subtle art of not giving a
Debate on Realism of 'Let Them Theory' in Practice
00:14:10
Speaker
fuck?
00:14:10
Speaker
I don't like, I haven't read it. I haven't read that. And that to me, i don't know why because like i also, to be clear, I haven't read this book and I would never read it.
00:14:22
Speaker
I've just got the highlights. Yeah. And I've then applied them in a way that I find useful. Like what is what is a whole book's worth? Like what how would you fill a book with but this? Like, you know, I think it's like, I think it's a two or three pager.
00:14:39
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i I'm sure if you put it into chat GPT, it would be about three sentences. I tried to listen to a Mel Robbins podcast episode about it and i I just couldn't finish it. Like DNF, I couldn't cope. I was like, I actually...
00:14:54
Speaker
can't engage with this content she was talking about an example of when she put it in practice when like her son had his like prom and they hadn't pre-booked a like dinner reservation and i was like how many people are listening to this like this is quite strange but I suppose what, if I think about this more logically, you know, even if i if I were someone who thought that this would be useful, I still think there are sort of like logically and philosophically some challenges with it. What an area of improvement,
00:15:31
Speaker
felt robbs if she would like a performance improvement plan for let them. I do think there needs to be kind of space for repair and for healthy conflict. and such a simple take, I don't think really honours that. Like if you, Annie, started to treat me badly, would I just be like, well, let her. Yeah, you're right.
00:15:58
Speaker
I just wouldn't do that. Yeah. and And like I would see like our friendship is worth me kind of working away through a conflict rather than just being like, going to let Annie be a dick.
00:16:11
Speaker
Yeah. And then try and not resent her. like that That would be a weird thing to do to someone who's important to you. I can see value of it with someone who's not important. Not important.
00:16:22
Speaker
Yeah. um And maybe people just care more about those people than I do. I suppose. ah The other thing i think it really flies in the face of my philosophy ah of like your ability to influence.
00:16:35
Speaker
That's what i have real problem with this about. Like I pride myself on being able to influence. yeah Mel Roberts is basically like, nah, you can't influence people. So just don't try.
00:16:49
Speaker
Yeah, I remember when you first brought this up, I really remember that being the thing that you were like, it's just like, you just give up on everything. And like, why would you believe that like, nothing is worth kind of your action and your your influence, which obviously is also totally anti my personality as well.
00:17:07
Speaker
Yeah, and maybe maybe I've just sort of amplified it to mean more than it's intended or... Maybe I'm misrepresenting it, but you know, if I stopped engaging with things at work at the first sign of like a complex problem and being like, oh, they're they're not gonna work with me on this and I can't control them.
00:17:30
Speaker
I just like wouldn't have a job. Like, you know, in a job when when you have to do hard things, like that the reason that you've been given the job is because it's hard, not because it's easy.
00:17:42
Speaker
And if it was easy, you wouldn't be around. So like, it it's just not something that really gels with me. And i I also don't think it allows space for trying to get to the best outcome. Because if you let someone like block you on something critical, like your work isn't going to get done.
00:17:59
Speaker
In your example, you're just saying the work is going to get done either way. You can be a little bitch about it That is what I'm saying. Yeah. you Like you can be a little bitch what you want, but I'm going to win. And that's great when you have the power.
00:18:14
Speaker
But if you don't have power, then you can't let them because then that's just too passive. Yeah, you're right. I think we've spoken previously about like productive rage and like if you feel angry about something anger is telling you something else is going on and and you can use that as kind of a ah motivation to fix it but yeah passivity is like I don't think really and in either of our natures so that's that's why I i find it fascinating that like you're into it and like you know I don't want to take that away from you at all I wouldn't I don't want like let us correct this
00:18:47
Speaker
Okay, because like, I wouldn't say I'm into it.
Critique of Mel Robbins and Similar Content
00:18:51
Speaker
Because I also tried to listen to probably the same Mel Robbins podcast. And I actually couldn't get longer than like three minutes in.
00:18:58
Speaker
I think like, maybe I'm not her biggest fan. Because it's not it's not even, I don't think this is, I mean, we're doing a podcast about it, so it's kind of a funny sentence, but i don't even think this is a podcast length of content.
00:19:11
Speaker
It's just like, don't worry about what people think of you as much. But i guess it I guess what she is saying is like, it's a very extreme version of that, isn't it? She's she's saying, if you if you lose all of your friends and no one ever invites you to an event again, it's totally fine if you just let them.
00:19:31
Speaker
And I think that that stuff is like mental because also that's, that's a bit like, you've still got feelings. We're social beings. It's a like the friendship bit, I think is actually maybe even worse than the workplace bit because like,
00:19:46
Speaker
I mean, A, Mel Robbins' friends suck if she has like a whole chapter about this or whatever. like This is a core pillar of her theory. like I think you know it's about what you do and don't tolerate from other people. And you know if they treat you poorly, decrease the amount of energy that you give them. And like we've all had friends...
00:20:06
Speaker
where we've like, we've either done that or they've done that to us. But like, I don't think your principle as a baseline of like a social relationship is just constantly lower your expectations because the kind of corollary for that to me is like, i I'm not deserving or worth it. And like, you know, maybe that's my inner critic speaking or interpreting it But I do, you know, don't think I have extremely high expectations of friends, but definitely have expectations of friends.
00:20:33
Speaker
And if they weren't, doing something for me that was working for me I'd probably either tell them or kind of you know people naturally phase each other out or outgrow each other but I don't believe in the philosophy that you should just be constantly lowering your expectations of your relationships if you've been like a bit wronged like that's just to me saying these people aren't worthy of me but also like I'm not really worthy if I'm still willing to engage with them less frequently and they're less important to me but they're still treating me like shit like I think you either tolerate it or you don't but it's just quite strange the line about friendships that I just found so weird like I i can't even begin to understand it it says letting them be who they are so you can be who you are like what does that mean also that to me like
00:21:25
Speaker
And maybe I just don't have super intense friendships. But that to me also implies that like you and your friends are like there every day, like at each other and kind of like an intensity that is just like not something that
'Let Them Theory' in Friendships and Emotional Labor
00:21:46
Speaker
appeals to me at all. Like as much as I like love you and spending time with you, don't spend enough time with you, I think, to restrict who you are.
00:21:56
Speaker
like no it's it's very codependent and like yin and ah it's almost like a sort of year five interpretation of a friendship to me yeah when you're like you're my best friend in the playground and then a third person comes in and you're like no longer the best friend and it's the worst thing that's ever happened to you and whatever like that's the kind of vibe that it gives like it's a bit strange and then the other bit that I just the bit that I just really disagreed with in the in the workplace one just to go back to it was when it was like let your co-worker take credit for your work I was like that that would really get you
00:22:36
Speaker
That would really get you. Because you've got so many sassy ways of just making sure that that can't happen. It's flattering when someone takes credit for your work. But my God, like you don't get promoted if you take credit for your work, especially women.
00:22:53
Speaker
And I think that's really poor advice. She also suggested releasing expectations of fairness and validation in the workplace. And if over a long period of time that doesn't give you the recognition,
00:23:05
Speaker
then go get another job. No. I think that's really naive, isn't it? Because it's just like, there is no workplace that has ever just noticed everyone's output, efforts, emotional investment, like commitment to the company. There's just no workplace that ever would work like that.
00:23:25
Speaker
at all. And so I think that's also just, it's naive, but it's just a bit stupid because it acts like everything will just be fine if you almost don't engage at all. And it's like, that just isn't true.
00:23:39
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, that's completely problematic for anyone who's a minority or like, you know, what about if you're not a minority advocating for others or like the good fights, like there is no, there is no company that you can go to where that will be solved. It kind of feels a bit like Trump DEI attitude, like, which could be a whole separate horrible conversation. Yeah.
00:24:02
Speaker
Okay. So I feel, and I might not be correct about this, but obviously this has gone really viral. I think that is because... Very snappy. yeah It's very easy to like latch onto it very quick.
00:24:16
Speaker
But do we think this advice, if we take it at the highest, simplest level of just like care a little bit less about what people think of you, do we think that that's more relevant for women than men?
00:24:28
Speaker
Good question. Probably. Yeah. I mean, if if I'm just trying to re-gare my brain into a Mel Robbins, positive space. I do think that is helpful. I think, you know, women are much more likely to be people pleasers.
00:24:43
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, I don't have any numbers to back that up, but I'd bet my savings on it. and Agreed. And like, this feels like a really good one for the people pleasers.
00:24:53
Speaker
I would put myself in a people pleasing camp that I'm trying to like extricate myself from. But yeah, I mean, a part of part of this... is around you setting your boundaries, right?
00:25:05
Speaker
And setting boundaries always involves disappointing people and you have to be comfortable with disappointing people. And if, if the phrase let them, oh, Susan agrees. If the phrase let them helps you feel comfortable doing that, then great. That is a good thing.
00:25:21
Speaker
And I, you know, if I take it from that angle, I think she's done a good What do you think? Well, Susan's, she's speaking up at this section. and I think she's agreeing that it probably does.
00:25:32
Speaker
I think, I think women are more likely to be empaths. And I think empaths care much more about what everyone thinks about them and takes, you know, if someone doesn't like something, takes it very hard and,
00:25:45
Speaker
gets very you know I think it's just that's the we've been we're the carers right so we've been programmed this way and so I think it probably is in general more applicable and useful to women but I think one of the questions that you'd put for discussion is interesting it's like how does let them theory reduce emotional labor And like, well, it could reduce it.
00:26:12
Speaker
Right. It could reduce emotional labor, like the emotional work. Or I feel like trying to implement let them could be like the most agonizing amount of emotional labor ever. Because you'd be like, I've got to not care I feel terrible, but I've got to just let them. And I feel like if I just follow this and I just don't care. And it's like, that doesn't, that actually doesn't feel very realistic for me in a lot of cases. Like, I think most people where, you know, you said I've given the advice, like care a little less, right. I got that as my, one of my last bits feedback from my manager is care.
00:26:52
Speaker
Sometimes you care too much, care a little less. But I think it's unrealistic. Like I'm not going to go from like Annie to let them. Because I'd spend so much time being like, yeah, you shouldn't, you shouldn't care about this. You shouldn't, you shouldn't care about this. Don't care about this. Stop caring about this.
00:27:07
Speaker
That I would be, I would be really working myself up just trying to do that. So I'm not, I think in in theory, if you could just go, oh I'm just going to switch on let them. then yeah, fine.
00:27:17
Speaker
I think that probably would reduce emotional labor. But I think the practical reality is you don't just switch it on. You can maybe apply it to some things, but it's not, it's not easy.
00:27:28
Speaker
Yeah. So I think, you know, when I think about, you know, I had a conversation with my therapist this morning about like trying to, if I feel like I'm compulsively thinking about something, trying to make my mind not think about it makes it harder And I think, you know, part of it is, I think for the care a little less argument, I think the answer is, yeah, like turn the volume down 5% rather than turn the volume to mute.
00:27:57
Speaker
Like, I do think there's actually such a good and healthy and positively motivating space about caring at work. You know, as I always say, the kind of the light you shine, the shadow you cast, like,
00:28:08
Speaker
It can be your greatest strength and it can also be your greatest weakness if you care so much. But, you know, it is a huge strength to be passionate and to be really motivated and to really care. And also, like, especially in your line of work, where there are like material health outcomes as a result of it, slightly less relevant for me when I'm like selling advertising.
00:28:26
Speaker
I think whenever, you know, if you like take your job off, seriously and you have anyone that you work with whether you're like a direct manager leader or just like a leader as a person right I just think that part of the fun of it all is that you care like oh my fucking god when I have done the few jobs I have where I didn't care at all like I worked at this shower gel company and it was yeah It was so rubbish.
00:28:59
Speaker
Okay, I think we have given Mel quite a lot of feedback, airtime, things to think
Conclusion and Listener Engagement
00:29:07
Speaker
about. So let's too long didn't listen.
00:29:10
Speaker
What's the recap? I would say if you take it and apply it for what it means to you, a bit like a horoscope, that can be great. But if you get too intellectual about it, it probably doesn't stand up.
00:29:25
Speaker
to logic. Is that a fair take, do you think? I think that's a fair take. It's like a high level, good, fine. Taken to the extreme that she wants you to take it to, completely bizarre.
00:29:38
Speaker
Not for me. And also just to summarise Mel, I think you need new friends. Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay, so thanks for joining us today. As always, if something today's in today's episode has resonated with you, spread the love, spread the magic, share it with a friend, post it on your socials or leave a rating and a review on your favorite podcast platform. It makes a difference. That's how the coven grows.
00:30:00
Speaker
Until next time. Peace.