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S2, E1 The Career Coven: How to Quit (and some life updates!)
113 Plays5 months ago
On the first episode of their second season, Annie and Bec talk how to quit your job. They discuss when to quit, how to quit, and whether it’s ever a good idea to go out in a blaze of glory. Like most people, Annie and Bec debate whether it’s always best to have your next job lined up when you quit, or just to go.
Listen to this episode to hear more about:
- How to think about job tenure
- Job scenarios when you may want to quit
- Job scenarios when you don’t want to quit
- How to quit well
- How not to quit
- What to do in a notice period
- What not to do when you quit
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
There’s a few life updates in this one - which shape some of the content of the second season. So don’t miss out!
If you like our content you can follow us both on our personal platforms:
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Transcript
Annie's Big News: Pregnancy Announcement
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello. Hello. How are you? How am I? I, Annie, am pregnant. um That is big news for season two of The Career Coven. Oh my God.
00:00:19
Speaker
odd Congratulations. I mean, I did already know before this, it would be absolutely mad if you were telling me this on um this format. But um obviously our listeners didn't know. It's the most amazing thing and it brings with it a lot of interesting professional challenges and learnings and stuff. And I think that is interesting.
00:00:40
Speaker
It is interesting. it's It's a wild journey. I mean, this weekend, I think like my pelvis just fully disintegrated. So it's it's a real roller coaster. I haven't spontaneously cried this week. So, you know, let's see let's see how we roll.
Lanny's Life Updates: Job and Engagement
00:00:56
Speaker
And what's new to you, Lanny? I've got a new job. I'm engaged. Huge. I think those are the big things. Those are the big things that I've sort of checked off. um So yeah, lots going on, busy, busy, busy, as usual, but not growing a human. And all the parts of growing a human is something that I feel very passionately that we should talk about more. And so I am looking forward to that being part of our conversations in this season to come. Amen. And I'm looking forward to all of the learnings that you have gathered from your
00:01:38
Speaker
um process of getting a new job and how that has gone. We are very excited for you and he is fresh in and out of the job market like that. um so great Welcome to our second season with a lot of shit going on and we're ready to gas about it.
New Season Topic: Quitting
00:01:59
Speaker
um We thought we would start season two with a strong opener strong And we are because if we are but going to open with the topic of quitting. It's a vibe. um Something we've both done before. And something we will do again. We'll do again. um I quit lots of things, um not just professionally. personally, but it is a ah a banger to start with. So let's let's open it. Is quitting a good or a bad thing or does it not matter?
Complexities of Quitting Jobs
00:02:36
Speaker
Ooh, that's quite a meta first question for recording after a few months. But um i think I think it can be all three of those things it is the honest answer. Like I do think there are
00:02:53
Speaker
In consequential quits, you know, I do think there are, you know, things that don't have much meaning on your career and that are really short lived, for example, that like don't even really get off the ground and where you almost just never think about it again. Um, I do think that more often than not quitting is consequential, you know, like you are choosing to make a change in your circumstance. Like.
00:03:18
Speaker
usually it will have an impact in some way. Obviously it would be so naive of us to say that tenure in jobs doesn't matter, it does, it absolutely does matter, it does matter that you can show that you can hold a job for a significant amount of time and um And I know that as somewhere as someone who has generally worked places quite short amount of times. So I have really like got experience of that. um What was it? Yeah, yeah. Oh, 100%. 100%. And it's also it's also a huge insecurity of mine, right? It's not
00:03:58
Speaker
it's not just feedback I've had. It's like i I know that that is how it looks. I also know I was there and so I can't hand on heart tell you that I regret many of the things I've quit but I don't enjoy explaining them. I don't and I don't think I i don't think i will. um Can quitting be good? Of course quitting can be absolutely glorious. I think it can be Yeah, I think it can be triumphant. I think it can be a moment of glory and power and reflection and everything. um So yeah, I think it can be all of those things. What about you? I i think it really depends on the individual and the circumstances. and I think earlier in my career, I had a few shorter tenure roles and I think I'd got advice when I was on the third or fourth one um that I needed to ride out my next role for a while.
00:04:54
Speaker
And actually having that feedback for me made me choose my next role more
Advice on Job Stability
00:04:59
Speaker
carefully and actually makes me much more selective now about the roles and organisations I want to work with. So I've i've now had a few stints with like many years behind them in different organisations, which I felt has kind of, maybe it's even just me compensating from my fear of that feedback as well. um ah But it it sort of,
00:05:21
Speaker
i it has changed the time horizon and lens with which I look at kind of career opportunities. Whereas I think earlier in my career, it was about like trying out this new role or like trying out a slightly different discipline. And it felt more trial and error earlier in my career, whereas like I also feel like I know myself a bit better now. And I know I'm going to hate a job that does that or an organization that's like that, um yeah you know, an organization that doesn't respect my time. I would even interview for let alone start and then quit.
00:05:51
Speaker
Um, but you know, I think there are, there are circumstances in which you should maybe hold on rather than quitting. But I think the, the like quitting is a bad thing. Um, sort of mentality really comes from like our parents' generation of saying, you know, I'm going to be in one company and and rise the corporate ladder for the rest of my life. Um, and you know, that's fine for some people, some people still like to do that um brackets my husband which is just like not a mindset that i really relate to um but you know there's still some people like that but yeah and it's so hard right if you think about the organization you work in
00:06:35
Speaker
starting there as a graduate and working your way up to the top of it. That would also be so hard in this day and age because everyone moves around so much and they jump levels when they move and they get more pay when they move. So yeah, I think it's actually harder to be a kind of steady Eddie now than it ever had before. Totally. um So props. i would um i would I would never be this senior now if I stayed in one organization and rode out the sort of tenure track of progression like that just never would have happened so you know i don't regret any of mine either but um i think there are there are there are good and bad times to quit and ways to quit um okay when would you say it's the right time to quit okay i think um i think we're probably quite aligned on this i would say if you can't see any opportunities to grow
When to Quit: Right Decisions
00:07:32
Speaker
Um, and you really have validated that quite carefully then, you know, probably possibly assuming that you want to keep progressing, possibly that might be a reason to quit. I do think if you have a bad line manager, um, that really isn't supporting you, I do think that is very, very hard to navigate and like maneuver yourself out of. It's not impossible, but it is very hard.
00:08:02
Speaker
and um And I think that's where yeah youre difficult to win, especially, you know, if the line manager has more tenure, have stronger relationships, you know, honestly, that stuff really counts. Then I think bad leadership slash toxic environment, you know, slash all all of the above. um I've definitely left a job because I so i saw um such bad leadership skills that I was like, fuck, we're never gonna get anywhere. What is the point? And I really stand by, I really stand by that one actually. And um if you're more passionate about something else, great reason to quit, quit, go on, follow your dreams, do that other thing. That's a great reason to quit. And I also think if you really know that you need to take a break and for whatever reason that might be the right thing, that is also a good reason
00:08:56
Speaker
to quit, if you if you know that's what you need, I think that's that's fine. um And I don't think there's enough ah people saying that that is actually okay to have ah to have a little break, and it can be incredibly good for your career to do so if you know that is what you need at that point in time. Anything I've missed? Yeah, i think I think the career break is ah is a really underrated one, um ah but a really good one.
00:09:24
Speaker
and Yeah, I would just say it the most important one for me is the first one that you said, which is around like, is there anywhere else for me to grow? um and um and and And underscoring that question is um an assumption that you do want to grow. Some people don't want to get more senior and and that's fine. um You know, your growth might look like learning a new soft skill or like applying yourself in a slightly adjacent discipline or something like that. But I think you have to really examine the question about like, have you run out? is Is there any juice left to squeeze in the lemon where you are before you go? Because I think that's what you're going to have to reconcile with whatever you choose to do next. And you have to make sure that that trade off is worth it. I mean, i on your point around um
00:10:22
Speaker
toxic leadership, and and if you're missing a kind of sponsor or line manager that doesn't have your back, there's very little that you can do to succeed in that environment. And I've left a job like that before. And I can just, it like it was so liberating to leave to leave that context because um there are so many negative feelings that come around being in that environment um and the stories that you tell yourself because of that, that yeah it's really great.
00:10:52
Speaker
And I think one that I would add, probably in relation to that, but not necessarily, is that if you're in a toxic environment that's infant like affecting your mental health and you think that that is circumstantial to work and and this particular environment, I think that's a perfectly perfectly excellent reason to remove that environment from your life. Agreed, agreed. I think that as you would as one would always caveat is like it can be quite hard to identify when mental health issues are or aren't a result of your
00:11:27
Speaker
job so definitely finding the right support if that's how you're feeling um to prevent you from kind of quitting something that may seem like the cause but actually isn't the root cause. um But I really obviously believe that work can be a root cause as well so I think it is just understanding that full context. I was just I was just going to add that you know mental health could have so many different facets to it and you have to be really, really specific in in knowing that it is about work because you could just need wider help and actually yeah keeping in the same job might be better for your stability while you're going through that. Yeah, we should probably or just also say on that point, that is okay to ask for sick leave related to your mental health. I think that's very important. So if you think you need a break, asking for two weeks or getting two weeks sign off sick leave,
00:12:19
Speaker
to give you some respite um is is as true for mental health as it is for physical health. um But I think much accepted. I did that with a job that I quit. um I had two weeks of mental health leave and concluded after those two weeks that it was the job that was making me feel terrible. And then I quit and I felt great. Great.
00:12:46
Speaker
That's what it's there for. Okay, wrong times to leave a job.
Considerations Before Quitting
00:12:49
Speaker
Yeah, I think in general, just without properly thinking it through in all of the dimensions that we just mentioned above. So like, there may be a way to a different line manager that is viable. There may be more growth opportunities. um I do think sort of, if you don't ask, so you don't get, you know, if you're really at the end of your tether, but you think a few things could save it, like you may as well ask,
00:13:13
Speaker
You never know what could happen. um I also think mat leave is a real consideration um for women. Understanding that many people will, many new employers will not give any mat leave to someone who has been in the organization under 12 months um really does mean that it is important if you what if and when you you move. um And that's not to say that any of the things that You know, it's not to say that you can't quit. It's not to say that it's like wrong to do it, but but it is, you're possibly leaving money off on the table potentially that most people need. Yeah, there's there's like a ah financial consequence to that decision for sure. um And I think conversely, if you're, and I think like this is just true of women
00:14:08
Speaker
in our age and and up and down ah who are thinking about having children that it it doesn't just start from like I want to have a child so I'm going to change jobs now and then I'm going to wait 12 months and then I'm going to get pregnant because like there's a whole set of flex in that timeline and you just don't know what's going to happen. So you actually have to be prepared to be locked in for quite a long time um great for all of the versions of the events that could happen in that period. So When I was thinking about, um when I moved to the BBC, I wasn't thinking about having kids at that time, but I was really looking at it as, this is the job that I am probably gonna have when I go on that leave, whenever that happens. So, like, bunker down, we're here for a good time and a long time. Otherwise, otherwise stitch up financially.
Quitting Without Backup: Pros and Cons
00:14:59
Speaker
Yeah, and I think the foresight that you have, which is much, much more foresight than than me, but
00:15:07
Speaker
ah into planning your career properly to to have this moment, I think is really sensible. And yeah, I guess I would actually really encourage most women to think about if you know you want kids and you know you will try and you have an idea of the time horizon and over which you will try, you should be thinking about which job you will have and whether you need to move before that, et cetera, et cetera.
00:15:37
Speaker
Um, because yeah, as you say, Beck, it's not within our control or our gift, whether it happens or it doesn't happen, or it takes a long time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's, it's good. This is one, ah this is one part of the Matt leave or maternity journey that you can control. You actually can control where you work when you're trying. There are so many things that you can't control. So I definitely think Matt leave is a real consideration and career planning around that moment is, is really important.
00:16:05
Speaker
When do you think are the wrong times to leave a job? We might disagree on this, but I personally wouldn't leave a job if I didn't know roughly, broadly, what I wanted to do next. I would sort of... yeah Hard disagree. No, no. You have a better career than me, so... But yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's good.
00:16:31
Speaker
ah I think for me, and like this is more just a probably a comment from me around the degree to which I need to feel in control of things. Um, but I think, um, I would, I would personally, if I felt like I needed to kind of really big pivot into something else, I would probably do that self discovery and reflection. Whilst I'm in my job rather than taking a bit of big bit of time out. i think I also think that from a perspective of financially, like how would I pay for my mortgage and what's happening with my savings? I'm quite conservative about the risk that I'm willing to take financially around working or not working or those sorts of things. So um that's I think what is driving me to say, I wouldn't quit if I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but disagree with me, go on.
00:17:29
Speaker
No, I think it's it's interesting that um it's gonna be much more about personality type than than anything else. I have actually, I don't think I've ever quit a job with another job. So, but then the other things I would reflect to the audience is I do not have a mortgage because I have never been able to afford one. I do not have any savings. So I think that is probably down to personal risk appetite, as you say.
00:18:01
Speaker
um And also, I, yeah, I think it's, I think it's okay to land in the middle on this one. I definitely respect your, your way of doing it. And I think your way of doing it is more more common, which is don't leave, don't quit until you've lined up your next thing. It can be factually very hard to interview when you don't have a job. And I think we should flag that. um If you are someone that is immediately available, maybe that will be a huge plus, but it is probably going to be a bit of a red flag until they meet you. So unfortunately, I would say probably my advice is not the best the best advice. It won't work for everyone.
00:18:49
Speaker
um I like, I think, the pressure of the gap. The pressure of the gap, for me, does something good where I'm like, oh, now I've really gotta work it out because I'm gonna run out of money. i'm But that's much more about my personality type, I think. um When else, Beck, do you think is the wrong time to leave a job?
Financial Planning for Women
00:19:14
Speaker
So so I think when when you think about when you're leaving a job,
00:19:19
Speaker
um we've we know we've spoken about the circumstance in which it's right. um I don't think leaving a job because you're not paid enough and going for a pay jump is a bad thing, but I think you can only really get away with that one or two times in your career when you go like, I'm going to go fuck it and double my pay. Because if you keep doing that,
00:19:43
Speaker
I think it gets actually much more difficult to explain the the turnover of your roles in your jobs. So you might have something amazingly well paid, but if you're only there for less than a year and then you move on um and then that's what your whole CV is built out of. and And the driver of that is pay rather than another narrative that you can talk about. That's a really bad look. So I probably wouldn't advise um ah doing that. um And then I guess I sort of have an overall comment, which is like really unhelpful for um ah because it's not actionable. But I think it's worth when you're quitting thinking about how hot the market is. um As you get more senior, there are just fewer senior job roles out in the market. And if the market is slow, the path to you getting a new job is going to be much longer. I think quit slower. I think you're you're right on that one.
00:20:44
Speaker
so i don't think You know, if you really want to quit and the market shit, like, you know, putting harder work to find a job, like you're goingnna you're going to have to probably work harder. You're going to have to probably interview for longer. People are going to really put you through their paces when they do interview you in shit markets. um But that just means plan for the transition to take longer if you know you want to quit.
00:21:07
Speaker
um But I agree that it's certainly a consideration. And what I find quite sad is when I speak to people and who've maybe done my strategy, they just they just quit. And they were like, I'll find something. you know I'm senior. I know how to sell myself. you know I'll be fine. And when they literally have no idea how bad the job market is, and then they get really demoralized when actually a lot of that is outside of your control.
00:21:36
Speaker
um I had a conversation just today about someone with someone who was having a really hard time in the job market. And this person was amazing. Like it was such a good candidate, but I know the type of role they were knowing going for. I know the type of organization. And I was just like, it's not going to take two or three months. It's going to take six to 12. And that's ah that's just not in your control. I think six to 12 is closer to the experience of people who I have spoken to, um particularly in the last year or so yeah and on how that's gone. And, you know, I think obviously the pandemic put a lot of economies and industries in the toilet and some of those have rebounded and some of them haven't and some of them have blown and then shrunk again. And like with all of the tech roles, I i sort of take a macro perspective of looking at it like you have all of these incredibly talented people in the market.
00:22:34
Speaker
looking for jobs and that will be your competition set and your competition set is incredibly fierce. um So of course it's going to take longer. um So I think that's if if I'm thinking about that. I'm also thinking about my more kind of fiscally conservative position that like how long can I go without being able to pay my mortgage? um So that's why I'll be in the same job like forever. Okay,
00:23:01
Speaker
and okay um as someone who self professed has quit a few things in their time, Annie, how do you leave on good terms?
Respectful Job Exit Tips
00:23:11
Speaker
Oh, I think just behave as you would want someone in your team to behave. Like, be respectful, be as clear about the reasons as you want to be, but also remember, you don't have to give any reasons. Like, if you have nothing positive to say, the old adage is don't say anything at all. And I really believe that in this scenario, that is very, very wise. um
00:23:40
Speaker
I think always do like a proper handover. i'm like not someone you know I'm not someone who does a shitty notice period. like I'm definitely someone that hands over as if you know someone could pick up with no context the next day and do everything I was doing. And that's really important to me. um And I think be kind to the people around you. Don't drag.
00:24:09
Speaker
Don't drag other people down. Even even if you you don't think that's what you're doing, you have to be really careful in notice periods not to do that. Not to be like, yeah, you know, behind closed doors, like, I'm so fucking pleased that I'm out of here.
00:24:24
Speaker
Like I hate it, like don't do any of that. It's not nice for other people who enjoyed working with you that maybe want to be in this job for a very long time. Don't don't be like a, what I said I was gonna say, like a sourpuss, but just don't don't think about what think about your impact on other people. Don't be a sourpuss. Think about your impact on other people and don't ruin their job for them by like being, you know, super negative or anything.
00:24:53
Speaker
Um, I mean, it's just good of andly if you're not quitting, right? Like, yeah even if I'm having a really difficult time at work, I try not to make that contagious because stuff like that can feel contagious and quitting can be contagious as well. Um, and I think if you want to stay on good terms with like the management team, you are going to want to kind of allow those people to come to the conclusions themselves rather than being like the ring leader.
00:25:21
Speaker
of of exiting.
Dramatic Job Exits: Examples and Analysis
00:25:23
Speaker
um I suppose um I'd be interested in your views on this, because I don't think I've ever given one or been asked for one, but what do you think about references? And how would you go about getting a reference?
00:25:41
Speaker
Oh, I think references are super important and you should assume that everyone you have ever worked with could be called for a reference on you at any time. And that is even more so why leaving in a respectful manner is really important because that might be the last thing they remember about you. That might be that month might be the thing that really sticks in their mind and they will get called. All of these people, they will get called, they will get texts, they will get emailed, they will get asked.
00:26:10
Speaker
and the more senior you get in your career the more that happens and it happens very informally in a way that you can't control. So I think that, um yeah, like behave in a way where you think they would reference you pretty well and um remember that your notice is your last impression, your last chance to make a good impression. I think I'm probably like saying some quite extreme things here because it can be it can be hard to stay positive throughout your notice but um yeah referencing is is a super important point here it matters a lot how would you leave on good terms or is it even try is it worth trying to leave on good terms when you're leaving in the scenario where your boss is just a bit of an arse i would rise above it o that would be my
00:27:03
Speaker
That would be my um approach for all the reasons which um which we've just outlined, but like to be honest, particularly for the reason of referencing.
00:27:16
Speaker
um I like in the kind of startup world, like one of the things I like about it least is that it's incredibly small, casual and informal. And I know that people before they even interview me would probably text a few people to say, oh, what's she like? I could see that you've worked with her, et cetera. And the paranoia and fear I would get if I'd just gone to someone, you know what mate, you've been
00:27:47
Speaker
appalling to work with for all of these reasons and I'm not fucking working my notice and fuck you. I probably wouldn't say fuck you but I might because I... I do swear a lot of work. um I would have so much personal paranoia about what would then happen to me, the impact on me, that I wouldn't see that that was worth it for the moment of like, fuck you. you know like i it would I feel that I would pay the consequences for that moment of like, I'm not gonna do this, just whatever. So I personally would rise above it. You do not have to rise above it, which is why I corrected myself. You do not have to,
00:28:23
Speaker
um put up with stuff like that. um But if if your boss is someone kind of very influential, very well-networked, very powerful, I would think about what to do carefully and what will be best for you, not for him or for them or for her, for you, what will be the best outcome here. And then I would act having planned that out. What do you think yeah in that scenario?
00:28:52
Speaker
I was just thinking about the one that I left and and I am not, I don't know if he's ever given me a reference. I don't even know if he's ever been asked, but I suspect regardless of, I mean, I obviously behaved respectfully as I was leaving, but i i I don't think how I would have behaved in that month of my notice period would have made a shadow of a doubt of difference because if he wanted to give me a bad reference, he probably would.
00:29:21
Speaker
um But, you know, I think if, as just as you say, it is in your control to try and be the better person in that last month, even if it might not make a difference, it could. um And then I guess i I sort of want to open a discussion about these are just as a kind of gossip observer in companies.
00:29:49
Speaker
yeah when people leave on a blaze of glory, um ah where they where they really just sort of torch everything. um I find quite fascinating as a as a maneuver. um And I guess we should probably talk about some pros and cons of doing that. So I saw one incredible one, which was um about a particular incident with diversity and inclusion, which I really respected because the person who was hired wasn't equipped to be able to do their job. And they sort of copied in every one senior and said, like, you haven't taken this seriously and I'm going and this is why. um Which, you know, I think
00:30:28
Speaker
really really bold but like a really noble kind of I'm here for these outcomes and you're not stacking up against them and I want you all to know about that publicly almost in a kind of internal whistle blowing kind of way um ah which I thought was really fascinating to watch but I've also seen others and actually in in these examples I'm about to talk about, they tend to be more junior people, where they sort of try to save the skin of all of their team members by reporting this terrible behaviour that a senior person has done to HR before they go. um Again, I think noble intentions, but possibly misguided.
00:31:18
Speaker
Yeah, I think there's there's the tone of that second one, right? So there's a way to raise a flag in an exit interview that is, caught you know, confidential, but that is like formal and say, look, these are the true reasons I'm leaving and I and i do want these to be kind of written down and and escalated.
00:31:40
Speaker
But in that scenario, you're not also saying to the rest of the team, I've done it, I've dubbed them in, I've told them, I've told them everything. I've sent all the Slack messages, blah, blah, blah. You're not like trying to start the protest or anything. You're kind of saying, like I am actually really worried that this person is gonna continue to lose good motivated people and et cetera, et cetera. And um I can't remember if I've done that, but I might have i might have done that kind of,
00:32:07
Speaker
um yeah I can't remember but I might have done something like that but yeah the kind of like let us rise against the management and stand up it just like maybe maybe it does work and I think i think the the first example you gave like on like real issues I think that that that is an interesting kind of way to go but um on like personality differences or style differences, I think it's very, very high risk um for you as the individual kind of rallying the troops because, you know, lots of people will say, if you say, do you also think this, this is how they treat me, they'll say, oh, yeah, you know, I guess so to humor you.
00:32:57
Speaker
to validate you because you're like, I'm having a really bad time. But you don't know that everyone isn't just sort of agreeing with the loudest person in the room at that time. You don't really know that is what everyone thinks. And yeah, I think it can end. I think it can end up leaving egg on on people's face a lot of the time and just being a source of like gossip. um Can I just say before we go to listener questions, because we have so many good ones.
00:33:26
Speaker
I just say this really funny story of a place where I used to work, where a guy left on really bad terms. In fact, I don't think it was his choice to leave. But he sat next to a person who he didn't like. And when he left, he knew that this person didn't like bananas. And he locked a banana in his little draw yeah just Every day, they're like, no one's no banana. I'm iconic. That is really good. That's like a little prank, isn't it? That's good. hey Harmless but hilarious.
00:34:09
Speaker
um read and that's what That's one way to leave on bad but hilarious terms in case anyone's looking for inspiration. um So let's go to the questions.
Quiet Quitting: Leadership Challenges
00:34:20
Speaker
um Let's start with quiet quitting. Is this genius or terrible advice?
00:34:27
Speaker
Yeah, i'm i I wonder if we have different views on this. I'm such a... it's against every fiber of everything I do and how I work and just everything to quiet quit. I just like don't... it doesn't resonate with me at all. I I just wouldn't, I just wouldn't do it. And I would be so upset if I found that that's what people in my team were doing to me. And um so for me, it's like quite a visceral like, no, come on, like, have the conversation, make it better or make the decision and go.
00:35:10
Speaker
this like gradual just like moving of the mouse culture. I'm like, it's not good for you or for me. Like it's not just a productivity question. It's like being really bored and being really miserable and being really unfulfilled for a long period of time is bad for you and your mental health. And I don't want that for you as an individual as much as I also don't want it as an employer. So um yeah, what about you on the quiet, quiet quit?
00:35:39
Speaker
i I mean, i so I suspect this is like still again, a bit of a hangover from the pandemic where you could probably get away with doing less than you would be able to now. um I suppose it to me is sort of, it depends on how long it runs for because I've definitely, when I have been looking for new jobs, you know, it's really hard to look for a new job. It's really intensive. You know, if you want to tailor all your applications and do all your interviews, actually,
00:36:09
Speaker
That is really time consuming. And if you're doing that on top of your work, the odds are your work is going to slip and you're going to prioritize trying to get a new role because you're ready to rumble and you want to get out. And I don't know if that exactly classifies as quiet quitting, but, you know, every time that I have quit and move role, you have to do an element of that and you have to do an element of kind of consciously deprioritizing your work.
00:36:36
Speaker
I don't know if Jen said would agree with me on that, that that's what quiet quitting is. But if that's quiet quitting, I've definitely done it a number of times. But I think if you're just sort of quiet quitting without like actively looking for another role, or you're just basically trying to get away with doing nothing, I'd i'd say that's just being really, really lazy. And I don't know, would you recognise, do you think if someone was quiet quitting in your team, like how I don't even know if I would be able to tell. I think, I think I've probably, I think I've probably had a couple of like, people are disengaging. I don't know if I would go as far as quiet quitting. So now I'm thinking about it. There may be one person I worked with a couple of jobs ago. He may have been sort of quiet quitting, um but he talked a bloody good game.
00:37:33
Speaker
Let me tell you. these are one yeah um yeah I'm not, I'm not sure I would be able to notice. I do think it's very hard, but I'm quite an empath and I'm very sensitive to people's vibe and the way they present at work and how they engage in meetings. And I think.
00:37:56
Speaker
I'm quite quick to pick up if I think that something has changed in someone. And then I just, as we have covered in previous episodes, I just go straight in for that conversation. What's wrong? I sense something. You can tell me that I'm wrong, but like I've sensed to toe ah ah a mood shift, a shift in how you're working, a shift in how engaged you are. What can I do? Is something going on? Can we please talk about it? And you know, sometimes people are like back off.
00:38:23
Speaker
God, intense, like, but a lot of the time they're like, yeah, actually, you know, I'm moving house. I don't know what to do. And like, there's, there's often there is something when you, when you say that, that isn't necessarily always to do with work. But, um, I don't, I don't know if I've, I don't know if you were a really good quiet quitter or I don't know i if I would know. I think if you're a really good quiet quitter, you should just be really good at your job instead. Um, you'd probably feel better about it. Um,
00:38:52
Speaker
Okay, next question.
Generational Trends in Job Quitting
00:38:53
Speaker
Do some generations quit more easily than others? Young people seem to want to quit more. How can I manage this as a manager?
00:39:02
Speaker
to Do you want to answer that one? I do think young people want to quit more. um I think that's true. I don't have a data point to back that up, but from from my experience, I think that's definitely true. That's also true of my own CV. Interesting.
00:39:25
Speaker
i I sort of wonder whether Gen Z will go through the same um the same process ah of going, oh, I should start quitting jobs and settle down for a bit so I look less flighty. And I suspect the answer to that probably depends on how much the generation of managers is going to sift that out of CVs and look for it and push for it. Because you know it could be that the future work is that everyone has jobs for sub one year all the time. um i I suspect that's probably not completely true, at least for a very long time. But um I also don't think that there's ah there's anything that you could do about this other than just trying to retain them. But
00:40:13
Speaker
um ah you know, there's ah there's a bit of a naivety that comes with being really young at work where you're like, it's cool, this one, I'm going to get another one, it's going to be fine. And you know, like, in some ways, that's a resilient attitude to take into it. But I think you probably only have to be burned by that once or twice to then learn the lesson. What do you reckon? Yeah, it's such a good point. I mean, I think that we sell I think we have always sold graduates and you know school graduates a completely false sense of what working is like where it's like fun and it's social and it's like yeah okay it can be some of those things but it's a really big adjustment from school and or university it's usually
00:41:03
Speaker
um it usually coincides with your brain still actually maturing so you're very overwhelmed by like the number of things that is is going on and your brain is still developing and i think we just we sell people a lie of like you'll love it you'll find something you really enjoy and like for the majority of people.
00:41:22
Speaker
And let's be real here, the majority of people don't love everything about their job. They might actually love very, very little about it. It's a means to an end for a lot of people. And I think that is important to recognize because you know if you sell them a false like picture of what it's like, then of course they turn up and they're disenfranchised. And it's as you say, it's not necessarily even the manager or the environment's fault. It's just like their expectations were just so kind of wildly different to what the truth of it is like. And I do think we need to fix that as a society. Like, I do think that that's a bit of an injustice that we do to young people. um I do think Gen Z have, is it Gen Z? Oh my fuck, I don't even know. Whatever the Gen is that we're talking about, the one that quits a lot. um yeah just Okay, they um they have different priorities, I think, really,
00:42:21
Speaker
different views about progression, different views about how hard you should work, the time and hours at desk, then certainly me and my peers did. And I think understanding those upfront as a manager is something that you can do. Interviewing for those is something that you can do. Being clear on your expectations to them before they start, as they start, once they have started is something you can do.
00:42:51
Speaker
I don't think that we can just shift the whole workplace um to kind of meet those needs necessarily, but I do think understanding them is important. um And yeah, I agree, I think.
00:43:06
Speaker
I think they probably do like to quit. You're also right. When I think about it, I did quit more quickly in my first couple of jobs, you know? And I didn't, I didn't even, I do, I did stress about it a lot. I was very, very stressed, but I was, I was actually quitting. I quit my first job because I was like, how the hell did I even start this job?
00:43:30
Speaker
What am I doing? You know, it wasn't actually about like, I liked the people I worked with. It was a really good company. It made a lot of money. Like it's female led. There were so many things about it that now I'm like, fuck, that was actually a really good place to work. But I had been sold this idea that I was going to be a young, modern city working person. I just found it all really depressing. I was like, this is really boring, menial work. This is not what I thought. I thought I was going to be interviewing CEOs at the age of 23.
00:43:56
Speaker
Um, because I, I had just, um, I'd just been sold a, sold a false reality, I think. So, um, but I mean, the truth of work is that like, generally it can be pretty boring. And like, I think I would be like overwhelmed if it was really exciting all the time. That would be to be, to be too much. Um, next question.
00:44:20
Speaker
I dislike a lot about my job, but when I think about leaving, I feel sad about leaving my contributions, projects, and my favourite colleagues. Should I go?
00:44:31
Speaker
Yeah, I think you should fuck career advise it. No, I think my view is your contributions are your contributions. They're still yours, whether you're in the organization or not. You have them for your CV. You have your narrative. You have your story to tell people.
00:44:51
Speaker
um i i People do disagree with me on this, but I believe never stay for people. I don't think that's enough of a reason to stay in a job. They can become your friends if you like them that much. I i think that that's just a that's just an excuse for saying somewhere quite quite boring. It's like, oh, but I love the people. It's like, okay.
00:45:14
Speaker
I think that's an excuse. um But I do know other people that would say the extreme opposite, which is like people are everything. People are absolutely everything. And you if you find a group good group of people, you should stay with them. Now, I personally have had so many failures working with great people that I don't believe that anymore. But um you know I'm open to the argument. Happy to have it. You didn't offer it, so I won't necessarily be having it with you.
00:45:45
Speaker
fine I don't think I've ever stayed in a job for people. um ah So I sort of lean towards your direction. But I do think for me, um one of the things that I really value and prioritise where I work is culture overall. And, ah you know, I think you have to look at this question in the context of other things. So if you manage a really amazing team, but you have a stinker line manager, you still have to go. um great Great advice that hard agree. Like you're not going to get around your stinking manager is I feel so sorry for your team that will still stick around there. But they're also adults and they can also leave. And they can also follow you. um You know, you can you can continue to work with good people. That's one of the pleasures of my career is when
00:46:32
Speaker
I get um more than one shot of working with someone amazing um ah somewhere else. So, you know, that can always happen. So yeah, I would say, I would say you should probably still go. I mean, the only thing that makes me pause about the question is, is there any, ah when i whenever I coach people on and ah whether to stay or go, i think I like people to think about like, what bullets do you want on your CV before you leave? And have you got the bullets that you feel like you want?
00:47:01
Speaker
And if there's something really big for you that you're leaving on the table, that would maybe pause and say, do you want to finish this project or launch it or whatever? Yeah, you're right. That's a good point. Particularly if you know projects have an end, particularly if you know it's like that will end on that day. Yeah, I agree with that. Okay, next one, next one, next one. This is the last question. I think this is a really interesting one.
PIP Implications: Stay or Leave?
00:47:27
Speaker
I have been pipped, which we should say is performance improvement.
00:47:31
Speaker
plan when you get pipped, you get put on a plan. Should I leave before I am pushed? So i I think no. um And that's because every time that I have put someone on a pip, I am very clear with everyone around me that if we put them on a pip and we don't let them go, they they have to be given the chance and be supported to pass that pip.
00:47:59
Speaker
And if we don't want them here and we just want them to go, then we just have to, you know, make that happen. I would say I'm obviously used to working in like smaller environments where that is easier to do than in large environments. But, um, I think that you should trust the person that gave you the PIP. If, if you like have the other things in place, like you respect them, you enjoy working there, it's still a job where you can grow, et cetera, et cetera.
00:48:29
Speaker
um I think if you don't have those things like you're put on a pit because you hate it and you disengage and you're quite quitting and you don't care you know obviously you should you should definitely go. Pips are really hard to pass and they're really hard to come back from and I think that is something one should consider is whether you will ever have the clout of in an organization that you had before you were put on the PIP. Some people, I believe, never recover from a PIP in that in that organization. But you know, I just think it depends on the individual setup. What what do you think? It's I mean, I have a slightly different take than you, which is that I don't know if it's the case where you've been working, but in in larger organizations, the PIP
00:49:16
Speaker
is the necessary step in an HR policy in order to be able to performance manage someone out. And I think the ah to me, the PIP is actually a much stronger warning sign that um ah your manager doesn't want you there and that you should be leaving. Whereas ah I sort of don't necessarily have as much faith that all of the people putting others on pips have quite the same good intention that you do um about the pip. I do believe if I was putting someone on a pip, I would also want to make it work for them. But in reality, when I've seen people piped, it's more often than not a tick box exercise to then get rid of them later. um So ah about I think it. And that probably explains why lots of people in HR hate me.
00:50:16
Speaker
um Yeah, no, i do I do think you're right. I think potentially my answer is a bit naive, I think. um So listen to Beck on this one. um if if i If I was put on a pip, I would be immediately looking for another one.
00:50:34
Speaker
You'd be out. You'd be out. I would be so crushed if I was put on a pip. like All of this like spout of of like resilience and stuff that I say, but I would be crippled. I would find it so hard to get over, but I think I would probably, once proved them wrong, so hard that I would stay and try and become like the CEO of the company.
00:51:02
Speaker
I would try and be the but the bounce back PIP CEO. um But ah yes, that's probably not possible. I have seen a couple of instances where people have come back from a PIP and like really thrived and been successful. But I also know that some of those people still have a reputation that hang around them for like five years, as you say. And and I also think if you're on the receiving end of a PIP,
00:51:28
Speaker
As you said, you'd feel like a bag of shit. And I don't know if my confidence could handle like being pipped and trying to make the comeback and prove myself. like i think ah ah Personally, I would just be like, this place doesn't see me. This place doesn't really understand what my strengths are. This place doesn't really value those.
00:51:49
Speaker
um what they need is not what I'm offering, I'm going to bounce. So yeah I don't know, if I got pipped, I would be straight on to the job search. But yeah, but yeah, but you know,
00:52:04
Speaker
Good luck. to be And to be fair, yeah that like positive uplifting file, no? And if you are on a PIP, all the best to you. Right. That's enough. That's enough from us. That's enough for this first episode. Thank you so much for listening, everyone. And welcome back. We're delighted that you are back for season two. Wherever you have found us, please help other people find us by doing things like giving us stars and sharing our pod. We will see you next time. Bye.