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S2, E8 The Career Coven: Hiring & Careers with Clare Mullen
68 Plays1 month ago
In this week’s episode, Annie speaks to Clare Mullen. Clare is the Chief People Officer at the health-tech startup Scan.com. She works across the UK and the US to build that team. Annie and Bec decided, having an expert in interviewing on the show, we should probably focus on how to get a job from the perspective of someone who has really seen it all… over 20,000 interviews.
Listen in to hear a discussion about:
- The top 3 most common problems you see in first interviews from the hirers perspective (and how to avoid them)
- Tips for an amazing first interview from a hirer’s perspective
- What candidates should be trying to find out from their future employer, as they progress through interview rounds
- How to standout in interviews, in a good way
- How Clare approached building her own career, including being a freelancer and then going into a full time role
- Tips for starting freelancing
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
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Transcript
00:00:07
Speaker
On
Introduction to Claire Mullen and Scan.com
00:00:08
Speaker
this week's episode of The Career Coven I'm so pleased that we are speaking to my dear friend and great human being Claire Mullen. Claire is the Chief People Officer at a HealthTech scale-up called scan dot.com. She is one of the best people I know, full stop, but definitely the best person I know that works in the division of kind of people and HR.
History with Claire at Thriva and Alva
00:00:34
Speaker
We've had the pleasure of working together at both Thriva and then at my own business Alva and she has supported me personally and professionally through some of the most challenging times in my career and that's something I will always be grateful for.
00:00:48
Speaker
um She's undoubtedly one of the women that I learn the most from, someone I always seek advice from whenever anything is happening with people, and um also someone who I seek a lot of advice from when it comes to my own career and my own career decisions. So Claire, thank you so much for agreeing to be on the career coven with us.
00:01:11
Speaker
Thank you.
Interview Tips and Mistakes
00:01:12
Speaker
And we thought it would be so helpful to our listeners to talk to someone in your role about how to do a good interview when you want a new job. So what are the tips and tricks from the people side of things? um And yeah, that's hopefully where we can focus in on today. And then also I would love to just ask you a few questions about how you've approached your own career and building that.
00:01:40
Speaker
Sure. Sounds good. Let's go. Awesome. So um set some context for us. How many people and in which departments do you think you've interviewed over the years of you being in this role? Okay.
00:01:54
Speaker
So in departments, I think I've interviewed everywhere, you know, within a sort of traditional sort of business structure, everything at every level, ah including, you know, the sort of last six plus years in health tech, I think a lot of like the weird and wonderful stuff that you wouldn't necessarily see in other businesses. I've done some proper math around this, and I reckon with a small room for error, probably about 20,000 interviews that i've held and cvs screened like yeah in the six figures i guess that is completely fucking mad
00:02:34
Speaker
No wonder they're constantly sounding husky, that's why. Do you say that's like 30 people a week? Yeah, I think 30 people a week for 48 weeks of the year, over 15 years. Some weeks, I would definitely interview more than 30. I mean, I've had weeks so it's been well up into the 50 odd. But yeah, I mean, I've, you know, ran temp desks where you were constantly hiding and gone through startup hyper growth. So yeah.
00:03:01
Speaker
Wow, okay, well, we're definitely talking to the right person then. um Okay, so let's start with the negatives always best.
Common Interview Mistakes and Solutions
00:03:10
Speaker
If you have to summarise like the the most common kind of three problems you see in like a first interview setting, what would you say those are? The first one is definitely sort of lack of preparedness. And i I really speak on behalf of recruiters here in particular, because I think what will often happen is we're seen as like,
00:03:32
Speaker
the quick chat that we hold, sort of no real formality there. And so, you know, people will be in their cars, they'll be walking around the streets, they'll be in their offices, giving us kind of mmm's and yes's and not really being able to have a conversation. They're just not ready for, you know, real kickoff and that intro into you. So that is definitely the the first one there. I think the the second is that we um And this happens when you're interviewing a lot is that you can just get too into your pitch. I've got 20 minutes I'm going to sell myself and I'm not going to listen for a single sound. I mean, I've had people that just don't take a breath for 20 minutes and they'll read me their entire CD, which you know I always say beforehand, don't read me it. I can read. ah That's what's got us to the call.
00:04:27
Speaker
um and they lose such valuable kind of interaction time when it comes to kind of questions and answers. yeah And then the third is that we don't hold all of the power. This is a 50-50 and you hold some power to you and you should be asking us the difficult questions. Like you want to come out of that interview saying I've got enough information to want to go on to the next stages. Or I've heard what they have to say, this isn't actually the fit for what I'm looking for. I need to kind of write it off pretty quickly there. Yeah, 100%. I feel like that's the thing I i most often say is you should be getting something out of like every interview, including like the first call as the candidate. And if you're not, that in itself is like a red flag. Yeah, I think I've only ever had one like first interview
00:05:16
Speaker
with kind of someone in HR or whatever, where it felt like they were just reading me a list. And then there was no time for questions at the end. And that's what really happened to me once. And I think I like text you straight after to be like, I've had it, I've had the like horrible, horrible execution of like a screening call where you feel as a candidate, like,
00:05:37
Speaker
just quite kind of used almost because you're like, Oh, so you've got everything from me and I've got absolutely nothing from you. So I think that's, that's such good advice. um So I guess how do you think people can avoid those three common mistakes?
00:05:53
Speaker
ah The first is is plan your time when it comes to that preparedness, you know, making sure, I think most people can be flexible when they can kind of screen you. I mean, I kind of you know work across time zones, so it's not uncommon for me to be talking to people late into the evening. um Making sure that you're not sat in your car, like is it somewhere that you can take a call with good Wi-Fi, all that kind of stuff.
00:06:16
Speaker
Those are the basics of how to interview. So get that right. ah The second is to just listen. Listen at the beginning of those conversations about how that call is going to go. Most of us, whether we're a recruiter, hiding manager, senior exec, we're going to map out why we're on that call um and what our expectations are. So listen for that and listen for the buy-in signals and take a breath.
00:06:43
Speaker
you know, listen to the question, take a beat and then go into it. I think those are some of the real, the real basics. Yeah, and you know what I was thinking when you say like take a breath, I think some people get so nervous, right? And one thing I always when I'm speaking to my friends and stuff who are really nervous about interviews or really nervous about getting a new job, I'm like, you know, the other person on the other side, they want it to go well, too. You know, they want you to be the the person, right? They don't want you to fail. like oh um But I think sometimes we forget that because we just get so nervous about the conversation. So yeah, I think those are all those are all
00:07:23
Speaker
Yeah. And that there's power and silence as well, right? Like, I mean, you know, it might feel like you've held your breath for a few minutes, but you haven't. It's been seconds and it's just giving you time for your nervous system to settle a little bit. um And I would much rather you take a minute to think about the answer than just like spew stuff at me that makes no sense. And you've just gone on autopilot.
00:07:50
Speaker
Yeah, you're so right.
Importance of First Impressions in Interviews
00:07:52
Speaker
um Okay, so like to go on the other the other way of looking at it, like, what are some of the most amazing or best first interviews you've had? Do you remember any that like really stuck out as kind of extraordinary?
00:08:07
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, you know, the the extraordinary is is few and far between. Most of them are just fairly ordinary and there's nothing wrong with that. But I think the ones that I've come off the call like really excited to tell people about is where I don't think the call has been long enough.
00:08:25
Speaker
like I've come off the call going, I needed another 20 years with that person. I've still got so much more. Or their questions were just really great. They really put me on the spot. I love that. um People who are passionate about what their role is, yeah it doesn't have to be that you're passionate about what we do. That can sometimes be quite dry topic. So you've got to be passionate about what it is that you're doing.
00:08:50
Speaker
you've got to engage in the art of conversation, you know, don't just kind of save all your questions to the end, you know, we can be slightly informal in the way that we approach these um and so if it feels like we're having a really good conversation then I'm i'm much more enthused about kind of next stages and you've got to be, you've got to be humble You've got to be willing to learn something new. If you, you know, I, I, you know, cross levels and it often happens to that more senior end where it's all about, well, this is what I'm bringing to your business, not this is what I want to learn from your business. And the ways of working that I've learned might not be actually right for your organization and I'm willing to unlearn them and do something different.
00:09:40
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think that's that's so true. I remember on another one of these like episodes with Beck, she asked like, what what are your like top tips or something for someone interviewing? And I was like, the playbook for your last your last role is not the playbook for this role. And it always just comes across as like both quite arrogant, but also like,
00:10:09
Speaker
just devoid of context when you just pretend like, oh, I've done it here. And it worked like this. And it's like, well, actually, even if they are really similar businesses, the people are different, the circumstances are different, the expectations will be different. And like, it is never going to be just exactly the same, like rinse and repeat. And um yeah, I've definitely had interviews that leave me feeling like,
00:10:31
Speaker
well, they've obviously done a lot like super capable, but they just don't feel like they're going to be as adaptable. And i especially in the pace of business that we work in, I almost feel like adaptable is a non negotiable. Absolutely. Yeah, completely.
00:10:49
Speaker
Okay, um so as a candidate, as you as you get past the Claire screening rounds, and if you it if you get past, exactly. um As you progress through a set of interviews, what should you be trying to get from the employer and be really clear on as you're interviewing for a new job?
Understanding Influence and Company Culture
00:11:07
Speaker
Yeah, so there are a couple of things. I think you you're going to want to know how influential your role is in that organization and who exactly you're influencing. um It's not just like the how, it's the who. The other big one for me, and I've seen you know this question handled so badly on both sides, is is our culture. um Quite often candidates will ask to describe our culture, but they'll not really know what they're looking for in the response.
00:11:37
Speaker
I've also sat in and interviewed throughout the years of of being a consultant and watched you know, even at founder level, people really struggling to answer that. Plain and simple, culture is how you get things done, how you talk to one another and how you get that business moving. yeah And you, at the end of your decision making process as a candidate, when they're sat there with that offer, you should be very comfortable in knowing that this is how this business talks to one another. And then the way that they talk to one another and then the way that they get things done absolutely aligns with who I am.
00:12:13
Speaker
Yeah and this is definitely something where I just know that I don't do this well. Even though like I should do it well by by this stage. I'm like a constant like I will just close my eyes to those red flags. I will see the cultural red flag. I'll log it in my brain and then I'll be like oh I can change that. like And I think that like it's you know I'm sure that is human nature but definitely it is really important to like get, get clear on what you're entering into. It doesn't have to be perfect, right? But you have to know that like, your kind of, I guess your ability to operate within it is, is really, is really strong. And yeah, I mean, founders obviously know how to like pitch their culture. but I mean,
00:13:01
Speaker
more often than not I do think that that is like hot air right like you know they pitch their values and all of that and values on the wall but values aren't they're not culture right they're not um and it's how they're lived and it's how they're rewarded and it's how they like go through that every day to your point of like is actually how you get things done that I think um I think often goes very left unsaid actually yeah And it's, you know, there, I always, whenever kind of we're talking about a role to hire Ford, who should be on that hiring team? I always talk about how we test for values in every single stage in the process. And that can sometimes be repeating the same question to see if we get different answers from the candidate in the same way as you as a candidate should be asking every single person that you interact with for that role, that one same question.
00:13:52
Speaker
and then competing those answers. Because if they are wildly different, then, you know, people show you who they are, the flags are there, and you know, regardless of your skill level. Yeah, you can't change those. um Yeah, yeah. And it's it's it's like a complete naivety and like, it's always wrong.
00:14:12
Speaker
You know, it's like, I'm always wrong. Oh, I can change that. And then you're like, I can't I can't fucking change that. Like, even there before me, they'll be there after me. Like, you can't, there are some things you just can't change. Yeah, but and and but also to counter that is that one of the things I also say when I'm asked that question is that I can tell you what what it's like today. yeah I can't tell you what it's like in 20 heads later because every time you go through that step change your culture shapeshifts and it should. If your culture is not changing then you are not innovating as an organisation and again it goes back to it's not that static.
00:14:52
Speaker
you know, a great poster. um So it's okay to constantly reinvent that answer because, you know, we're going, you know, as a scaling business at SCAM, we're constantly seeing our culture evolve. And it's only right that that should happen. Yeah, 100%. And yeah, it's not to say that yeah like especially in certain roles, right? You also do have a lot of agency to like change and establish the culture and to establish a different way of doing things. um But yeah, I think if you do kind of see a kind of consistent, I guess, value or a consistent behavior that is like so common in the interviews across everyone, and that's not something that you like, then I think that's something to really, really think about. and yeah
00:15:40
Speaker
Yeah, I honestly, I think I just still have like a bit of naivety about that stuff, even though I know you and I know I should be asking and I know what I should be asking. It's just so much harder to apply it to yourself. Oh, I mean, the best advice givers are the worst advice takers. So thank you for that. Because I know, I give it out so freely. I dish it like amazingly. And when it comes to me, I'm like a complete fucking mess.
00:16:08
Speaker
yeah the right um Okay, last one on, I guess, getting a new job. and The employment market is a bit challenging right now. It's been like choppy for the last, I guess, 12 to 18 months.
00:16:24
Speaker
um At the CV stage, do you have any tips and tricks to stand out in a positive way? And also what do you think of like, those like videos and looms that people can attach their CV? Like, is that something you like? Does that work? Okay. um So the CV stage I think that what we all do is that we dust off our CV when we're in a bad mood. We've had a really shitty day and we're like, I'm going to look for something new. And that means that we're not really putting all of our like effort, critical thinking into it at all. Your CV needs to be a living, breathing document. You're constantly keeping up to date. If you are sending your CV out on mass, because maybe
00:17:10
Speaker
that's just where you are and we don't all have the those to kind of different luxuries in career search, yeah then you know you've got to make sure that it is absolutely accurate in you know comparison to your LinkedIn or whatever. If you send me a CV, we get on a call and I find out that CV is a year out of date. The interview is done.
00:17:30
Speaker
because I can't have a conversation with you based on something that's not in front of me. So yeah keep it as a living, breathing document, you know, get advice on it. You know, I think it sea get some eyes on there, um keep it simple, ah but don't roll it out every time you're in a bad mood and want to find a new job because that's just going to set you up for failure advice. Great advice. I think also the don't just rely on direct application, a lot of rules.
00:18:01
Speaker
won't hit the open market um and that will be because we've had referrals yeah for someone to speak to, we've made opportunistic hires, you know, recruiters love an opportunistic hire, HR people, you know, have a little student reasons, ah but sometimes people will just be introduced to us that is the the right person and you know we're kind of crafting a role that wouldn't come eventually, we're bringing it forward.
00:18:28
Speaker
So, you know, follow those businesses that are of interest, you know, reach out to the relevant decision makers. There are ways that you can do this really badly. Don't use arming everyone with your CV. Does not look good. Really target the people that are relevant to the role that you're doing and that have some sort of authority in that kind of decision-making process. um It's not a backdoor, you're still going to go through a process. yeah yeah you know It's not a golden ticket, but it is a good way to get access to some things that wouldn't have come out to the market. Yeah, it's an interesting point because I definitely, I don't know, I think I'm sort of mixed at this, um but
00:19:12
Speaker
on the point of it not being a backdoor. We've talked a lot in the past about like, I have occasionally been been offered roles like very, very quickly that didn't have any process. And that has also been as a candidate, like a huge red flag for me. because if it's like ah you're willing to offer me like a c-suite role and you haven't like I haven't met anyone but you you haven't given me any kind of case you have like that to me is like a completely insane way to like bring someone in especially at even if it's a small business like at a kind of senior like invitation marks level so I think there is
The Necessity of Thorough Interview Processes
00:19:52
Speaker
just because as you say it's like not a formalised like public application process doesn't mean that there shouldn't be a good process for a candidate to go through and I think it's a bit of a red flag if you feel that there isn't any process at all. Absolutely yeah you're going to be talking to a good few people in that organisation particularly of that more senior level as well so yeah for sure.
00:20:19
Speaker
but sure be something And the other last question, I guess, just on this is like, um so as you know, when I stopped being a founder, I found it quite difficult to apply my general skill set to then a vertical role. So I looked at product, I looked at operations, those are like, for me were like the main, the main two.
00:20:44
Speaker
And I guess I always felt almost a bit of imposter syndrome in either of those because I was actually just more of a generalist in what I've done over the last few years. I
Challenges for Generalists and Former Founders
00:20:55
Speaker
have spoken to other founders who have found it quite challenging at the moment to get through just the CV screening process um because they don't necessarily have the skills that like AI screening bots or like people are actually looking for for specific roles. um What advice would you have for the the generalist or the former founder
00:21:19
Speaker
in in those in those situations. Yeah. Just to go back to the point about the loom videos, which I didn't answer, apologies. Yeah, please do, please do. So I, you know, various tools have been out over the years for this and they've never really come to like fruition. I think that, I don't see that as ever replacing the CV in its current format. And I think that it really kind of discounts a lot of particularly noodle diverse candidates from the process. yeah In terms of founders and and how you know they present themselves to the open market as a as a candidate, I think the reality is that the traditional
00:22:02
Speaker
um you know, approach of applying for formal rules that are advertised just isn't the right way to get your foot in the door for a number of reasons. This market, it's saturated with really great candidates. And I think the reality is that businesses will be able to really hone in on the skills that they're looking for. yeah And sometimes that just doesn't come through in your more generalist CV. I think there's also a little bit of fear about hiding.
00:22:30
Speaker
an ex-founder, you know, are they going to be comfortable suddenly reporting into someone as an employee? um Are they just there for the short term? Where will they figure out what it is that they want to do? All those kind of things. question that I get asked the most is is a version of that in easily, easily. Yeah, but there's also that dynamic of like working then with another founder and kind of the power dynamic. So there's a lot there to think about. I think the best way for ex-founders to get in the door of organizations that they want to work with as a genuine employee is through that sort of direct approach and introductions and you know more traditional headhunters who are exceptional at what they do. um I think those are the best ways.
00:23:17
Speaker
Yeah, I have definitely found that headhunters have been very useful because you can get to know them. And then they can position you like well for something that they know is kind of either coming on or a problem that could be solved even as a contractor. so um Yeah, I think full disclosure, all of my roles, all of my permanent roles since being a founder, I think have come through the network, not not a role that's been, you know, publicly applied for. um And it's not to say that I haven't gone for processes where there has been a ah job application route in. um But they just haven't been the ones I ended up like landing or landing in. But so yeah, it's it's interesting to know. And I think, yeah, to I guess validate what you're saying is other founders that
00:24:12
Speaker
I have given similar advice to which is like, you've just got to find a different way in, you've got to meet someone, you've got to build a network. and Which in fairness, ah founders are often good at, right? They often can go out and like, build a network. But that is how most people coming from that background have landed a job as as far as I as far as my small network would would would say, okay, now on to you.
Claire's Journey from Freelancing to Full-Time
00:24:41
Speaker
Onto you, I'm curious about your career because you had like a very, um very successful time as a freelancer, as a contractor with your own business, being your own boss, and you have now gone full time into a scale up. How have you thought about your own career over the last kind of 10 years and has it all had a clear plan? Absolutely no plan.
00:25:09
Speaker
and like weird each pebe buffet I don't even have a plus. It gives me nothing. i think I think that worked though, because of the in industries that we were in. like you you know You don't go into a startup fur you know to collect your old college clock at the end of your career. yeah For stability. yeah Yeah, exactly. I think when I went into freelancing
00:25:35
Speaker
I wasn't really sure that it was gonna be successful. Didn't ever imagine it would be as successful as it was. um And I knew I would always step away from it for the right thing. I think once you're in it and you're you're running through it, you quickly realize that the opportunities for career development are a lot less. yeah um And so, you know when i when I met the guys at scan dot.com, there were 10 people and it was supposed to be a three-month quick job to get them going and that turned into a year and a half of consulting and by that point I could see what the business was going to become and I didn't want to hand it over to someone else.
00:26:16
Speaker
yeah yeah Yeah, it was mine. And thankfully they agreed to to get me on. And I think that's where I then saw the opportunity for career development. but yeah If I'm going to really commit as an employee to this kind of organization, then the reward for that commitment is that they're committing to my career growth.
00:26:37
Speaker
Yeah, you're so right. I mean, it's interesting because the freelance or the contractor perm transition, if you can land it is like such a nice way into a role. Like I was talking to another founder about this.
00:26:54
Speaker
ah ah few a few days ago and I just said you know the perfect way is like the try before you buy a model and it is it's hard to execute right like you did 10 years or you know you did ah many many years where you didn't find that one and it was only you know and I remember how many months where you were like this could be the one this I think like this And I was like, it was, you know, it was exciting, but it was gradual as well for you as you like saw where it was going and the leadership skills of like your team now and, you know, how it was evolving. I remember you thinking, you know, okay, this is really different and this is really, I'm really enjoying it. I love working there and they're thinking really differently um about the organization and what they do. That was definitely how I,
00:27:42
Speaker
saw my own freelancing was I was what I loved about freelancing was that you don't commit to a culture. You can be one step removed. I found you could be a lot more frank. Yes. About your observations, because you don't have to have loads of friends, you know, you don't know they don't have to like you really, they just have to kind of respect you. um The the tra the freelance superb model did not did not work out for me, but I still wouldn't rule it out. I would definitely do that again because I do i do like the power of being being a freelancer, like no no question. i see that I see huge benefits, but I also agree with you that it is capped and at some point you often do feel like I'm not quite in, you know, all this exciting stuff is happening and I'm not quite in the exciting stuff.
00:28:39
Speaker
Absolutely. And I think you um you, there's only so much that you can do as a consultant. Yeah. You're there to kind of be like, well, these are your options. Pick A, B or C. Yeah. And then we'll roll that out. yeah But, you you know, that's when it begins and ends. And I think when you start to want more, like you're just going to get that. Okay. So.
Transitioning to Freelancing: Advice and Challenges
00:29:07
Speaker
On your, if if you were speaking to someone who did want to go freelance, so was doing the other thing, going from a role, but was thinking like, I don't know, I'm not loving my role, et cetera, like what tips would you give for someone thinking of starting a career as a freelancer? Okay, this could start to feel like a book.
00:29:24
Speaker
because they're so raated give me is a big i I think the first thing is why do you want to do it? Really think about the why and naively I thought that becoming a freelancer would give me work-life balance. It's like I'm going to work four days a week. Every Friday I'm just going to go into my own thing, going to read books, like just going to be so chill. You know the person, you've got the image in their head, they're wearing a gilet and they're the fund of the business through their payments money and they're telling you that you'll you know do what you love and you'll never work a
00:30:10
Speaker
day in your life and it's all that fucking nonsense. yeahia ah So yeah, I quickly realised that you will never work harder, never have a day off. And you know, it it's lonely. So you've really got to think about the why.
00:30:29
Speaker
yeah um You've also got to realise that what you're selling is you. You are yeah fraud you the product. yeah And you're going to have to take like some emotion out of that and learn how to be a product and learn whether the market needs or wants your product.
00:30:49
Speaker
I had been in the tech state for a while and I was like, people are coming to me and always asking for advice. I'll easily be a freelancer. Months of like nothing when I do it. Because I hadn't thought about myself as a ah product of the shelf. and That's definitely one. I think that you need to build a community of experts around you in their different fields. Like, yeah old for my accountant who really like. Oh, amen.
00:31:19
Speaker
kept me in check otherwise when I wrapped up my business I would vote so much money because in those early days when it starts coming in you're like oh I'm so red. And no one can work out like tax in their head. It's like crazy thing of like, okay, I'm really, it would seem like I'm much richer than I've ever been, but then it's like, but then just cut it in half because you still have to pay tax on this. um But yeah, i I found, I always found that a very odd, like a very odd thing at the end of the month where I was like, am I am i rich? Am I poor? I don't know.
00:31:57
Speaker
keep
Valuing Yourself as a Freelancer
00:31:58
Speaker
going either way yeah I think am and on that point is being to be financially prepared for it yeah and whatever you think you need double it because it really will take a few months to get going um and when I say build a community of experts I also think about really managing that community as well like it's a community not a city you know there's so many advice givers around you who'll be like it'll come the right the right thing will come just keep you know, they've never been freelance, they've never been freelance in your industry, but yet they will give you all this advice about how to find clients. Yeah. It's the same people that tell you how to date that have never been on a dating app. Exactly. When you're not looking at meta 16 that tell you how to date, yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're not looking, the right man will come along. Great. I'll do that Janet. Thanks. You've just saved me so much honey. And then I think the other is being really prepared to negotiate. like It's it's you know telling someone to know their worth is one thing, but like you are going to you know work with a variety of different clients at different sizes and you what you think your worth is not necessarily what the market thinks you're worth.
00:33:14
Speaker
So you've really got to prepare to kind of negotiate that, but also protecting your IP as you go, because it's as you start to build that reputation that you can kind of start to think about those fees.
00:33:26
Speaker
Yeah, I think the how you price yourself is is so difficult in particular for women. I think, um you know, there are just very few people that will openly share their day rate with you. Like, I think you can, as you say, have like a community of people that will do that. But are they in your area of expertise? Like, do they know your vertical like, often not? I think that, yeah, for me, the way I started to think about it was,
00:33:56
Speaker
you know, what's the minimum I think I'm worth? And then I'd always add 20% because I just, I just thought I was undervaluing myself. I thought like as a woman and with my personality, I will always just slightly like neg on myself. So what's that number? Add 20%. And then you're probably at, for me, I was like, I'm probably at my bottom number then. a Yeah.
00:34:17
Speaker
But then the thing the the other thing I see a lot of, which I think is incredibly fucking naive and I'm sure that you have thoughts on, is I see a lot of people that go to like pre-seed or seed stage startups with day rates that are extraordinarily high. And you're like, know who you're talking to. Like if this is a pre-revenue business, that number should, the number you quote should take into account the fact that this business doesn't yet make any money, right? And if you aren't like, if you aren't commercial enough as a freelancer, to be able to know your audience and pitch a number that that will be within their bracket, i think you are
00:35:04
Speaker
that in itself for me is a red flag to hire a consultant. Like if someone gives me a wild day rate, I'm just like, okay, not only is that a no, but that shows me that this entire thing has been a waste of time because you don't understand that I'm in a tiny company and we would you never entertain that number. Absolutely. So that context as well and like, and if you really want to work somewhere, you can also lower your number. Like no one's you know, no one's controlling what you do. If you like love a business or it's a charity or something. And I know we've had this conversation before specifically about charities. It's like, if you really want to do it, you can do it. You just have to, you know, you just have to think about it. And I think like when you talk about yourself being a product as well is that you can also be multiples of products. And so like you don't have to deliver this one off the shelf package yeah into the scheme. Like one of the things that I was very good at, if I do,
00:36:00
Speaker
name is and is that I very quickly was able to kind of demonstrate to people that there was no, for me at least, there was no idea of a plug and play response to the HR needs of your business. That I was coming in to tailor what you needed at your stage. yeah you know Working with you on Alva versus says you know working with some of the other clients I had that were you know growing internationally. Like yeah yeah to none of that stuff would have worked for Alva. adam And I think that that is something that again, I think a lot of consultants forget is that they they can strip back and that ultimately affects their rate. Yeah.
00:36:41
Speaker
Yeah, you're totally you're totally right. My final one there, sorry, is also go to therapy. Oh, lovely. Why? god Because you it's so lonely, as much as you know I would be able to reach out to people like you or you know and you know my brother's a freelancer.
00:37:02
Speaker
like No one, or the professional advice givers, if you just love to give advice, no one is there when you switch that light off at night, inside your head, worrying about how you're paying the bills. Even if you've got a partner, they're not inside your brain. You need to get that out somewhere.
00:37:22
Speaker
as much as it, you know, I'm so lucky that it was successful, but it could have gone the other way. And that could have really been disastrous. And you need, I mean, everyone should be in therapy, but like, do you need someone to talk to about this? Well, you're both lucky because luck is in everything, but also very talented and very prepared and very skilled. So, you know, also that. But you you are right. Like, I think It is very hard. That's the same with like, one one pet peeve I have is that people often talk about like their own freelance organization or, or like the narrative is like, that that's not founding, you know, founding is only way.
00:38:07
Speaker
when you build a team. And I'm like, that is fucking, fuck you. Yeah, exactly. And it's productive. And it's actually offensive. And I, and mean I think that that really needs to just like, be silence. Like if you are running your own one man agency, that is as fucking stressful to you as it would be running x kind of team. And I I do not think there is enough spoken about like the experience of freelancers or sole sole founders in their own companies, because there is just this like very reductive view of like, well, founding is like building a huge X. And I'm like, Oh, can we just get over that? That is just fucking rubbish.
00:38:55
Speaker
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I was everything. I was yeah several people. And, you know, the money that that business brought in was because I was being several people and not employing several people. Yeah, yeah. oh And yeah, it's that's just so insulting to say that. And I think on the on the point of like the the finance and like, you know,
00:39:22
Speaker
how you manage
Balancing Freelancing Cycles
00:39:23
Speaker
your own emotions as well. One thing I found interesting when I was freelancing is like you'd have these periods where you were so busy and you'd be like, I'm making a ton.
00:39:33
Speaker
And, or like relatively I'm doing pretty well. And then you'd have those droughts. And in the drought, you'd then do tons of business development and then you'd win three more contracts and then you'd burn out. And then you'd like this cycle of constantly being like busy, busy, busy contracts and no work. Oh my God. Oh my God. I've got to get some contracts. And then like, and, and that I think to your point about like therapy and self-management, like that is a roller coaster that you need support with managing because I found that I worked I worked very hard, whatever I do. So I worked really hard when I was a freelancer, but that cycle was was new to me of like the yeah the rain and the drought and whatever. Yeah, absolutely. I think that it's so hard to navigate that, at least in the first instances where it happens, because when the drought hits, you panic. yeah But also, you know, I struggled actually with the other side of that, which was turning work away.
00:40:30
Speaker
um And I remember having a coaching session with Evgeny, who is the ah ex-founder and CEO of Makers Academy, and just him asking that really simple question of like, what what honestly happens if you say no? And literally nothing happens, those people come back later. Like, we've got room to say yes. But I was like, I can't say no to anyone, because if I say no, like, I'll never get any work again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're so right.
00:41:00
Speaker
Yeah, the famine was actually sometimes a little easier than the feast. Okay, right. Last two questions and I'll combine them for brevity. Is there
Career Reflections: Proudest Moments and Regrets
00:41:15
Speaker
anything that you're particularly proud of or that you particularly regret in your career? What are those things and why? and I mean, I'm proud of because it only happened recently, like wrapping up the business and actually walking away with some cash out of it. lovely At the end of all of that, when you've paid yourself, I rented out an office, which was an absolute ego move, definitely one of those regrets. But you know you've done that, you know you've you've paid for your website build, all of those things. And at the end of that six years that I walked away with a lump sum is yet that
00:42:00
Speaker
was that real moment of being like, you are actually very good at what you do. Yeah. And you deserve. commission Yeah. I think on the I don't know if it's really a regret, because I would argue that it sort of got me to here. But I do think that I stepped into my first ever head off position too early in my career.
00:42:23
Speaker
And not only was it too early to be in that role, I also didn't do enough due diligence about the organization to see how they would support someone new to that role. And I think that I had to learn a lot of stuff very, very quickly and really the hard way. yeah But you could then argue that it ultimately kind of set me on a path where I But if I'd go back, and maybe You might change it. Yeah, I change that up. Okay, amazing. Well, thank you so much for chatting to us. um
Conclusion and Farewell
00:43:01
Speaker
And thank you to everyone for listening to this week's episode. ah Make sure that you like and subscribe and let us know if you have any feedback. Claire, what a pleasure. I'll chat to you soon because I always chat to you straight after this. Okay, bye.
00:43:23
Speaker
um um