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S1, E9 The Career Coven: Hybrid Working
99 Plays8 months ago
In this episode we talk about the importance of trust in making hybrid working work! Bec is a huge fan of hybrid working, whilst Annie can see more benefits of working in the office for some of the week. Listen into this episode to get tips on:
- How to get your team to come back into the office (carrot vs stick)
- The social importance of working in the office
- How employers have a responsibility to make the office environment productive
- Which work is best done in an office vs at home
- How hybrid working has positively impacted caregivers - and that you can’t have one rule for some and one for other
Content recs, references & extra reading
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Transcript
Introduction to Hybrid Working
00:00:07
Speaker
Hello. Hello. First episode for me with a microphone. Welcome, Annie, to the world of podcasting with an actual microphone rather than your earpods. And welcome to the career cover to all of our listeners.
Defining Hybrid Work and Its Challenges
00:00:22
Speaker
This episodes episode today is on hybrid working. um We, I think you and I are aligned on some things on this and not on others. Personally, I'm a really big fan of working from home. um probably more than you are, but shall we start by thinking around what we mean? Okay, so what I mean by hybrid working is working some time in the office and some time at home. what What do you mean by hybrid working? So I saw something on LinkedIn today, which was quite quite timely for this, which was where someone was saying, you know, had like thousands of likes and they were talking about how um
00:01:06
Speaker
how companies define hybrid working and flexible working is probably different to how some individuals define it. And I think she was sort of going on a, um I live outside of London and you're missing out on my talent ah sort of rant, which i I get, but I think, you know, I think you're right that it's you, you can work at home, or you can work in the office. But I think that the the distinction is like, do you have to? Yes. And are you set up for both? Yeah, like properly set up as a company for both. And as an individual, I guess. Yeah, because I think some companies um are actually probably just
00:01:50
Speaker
remote working companies that go in sometimes. Yeah, and vice versa. I think you can have like really talented people that get hired remotely into a team culture where everyone works in the office and then they just forget to make things like properly remote enabled and like properly set up their working rooms and and office space so that like cameras work and stuff. And I think that can be really, really hard for the person who's just really good and so got hired remotely.
00:02:21
Speaker
into like an in-person culture. That's quite interesting because i I don't really have experience of special carve-outs for people on hiring for remote on
Remote Work Benefits and Office Mandates
00:02:33
Speaker
a remote basis. Is that what you're seeing? Um I think sometimes it can um I think sometimes it can make sense um especially if you have like some sales in the US, you might have like one US team member or one European team member. um I think it can also, I think it can also work if you've got someone like really specialist that you really want to work with that just like,
00:03:00
Speaker
doesn't want to travel. Like I think designers, there are a lot of fully remote designers that do great work but just don't come into the office. I've certainly like seen that and I've seen it work really well to be honest. But um but yeah, I think there are a few ah few kind of exceptions. And okay, next question. What do what do you make of, kind of mandates to be in. Obviously we've been in the pandemic when we were full-time remote working and um I since then haven't been in a place that's had a mandate to work in the office. um So what's your view?
00:03:44
Speaker
i I have mixed feelings about this I do think there are real positives to having people work and collaborate in person. And I do think that people at the start of their career really miss out a lot if they are not in the office.
Trust and Preferences in Hybrid Work
00:04:06
Speaker
And I also think there is a level of trust involved in hybrid working, you know, um, that's just Susan dropping her ball at my feet. Um, so I think what I, where I land is I do think in some cases it's reasonable to mandate people in, and I personally think
00:04:33
Speaker
things like saying we want you here in your probation period for two or three days a week so that you can properly onboard into the team, get to know people, but also you can like build that trust of like, okay, this person's really like getting stuck in and not just um just not doing that at home. could be reasonable. I also think for more junior people, for graduate level people, I think it could be a reasonable thing to ask. And I don't mind it. I think in tech and in startups, you're seeing a lot more of like, it's three days a week in person. Really? Yeah, 100%. I think that's changing quite fast. That's a real pendulum swing, though. Because like in the pandemic, they were like, we can all go fully remote forever.
00:05:20
Speaker
So it's really fascinating that that pendulum has swung back in the space of the last whatever, four years. Yeah, I believe most of the big tech companies are now saying three or four days back in the office. I will confirm that and put it in the show notes, but I do think that that's the theme that is, um is, is kind of coming back now. ah What I don't think is reasonable is like, I don't think it would be very reasonable to ask you to suddenly be five days a week in the office with no justifiable reason when your like output is fine, good. And you have proven that you are like working in a great way in this kind of more flexible setup. I think that's a really hard ask for
00:06:09
Speaker
the employer because there's I can't see the reasoning if people have been working productively in a way and performing well to ask them to kind of come back in. It's just very hard for me to understand like what that logic would be in many companies. um But yeah, I think there are some exceptions where it can make a bit more sense. And I personally, you know, I like the kind of three day or three day in, two days at home. um But I would be comfortable working in probably both ends of the spectrum.
Social Dynamics in Hybrid Work Environments
00:06:42
Speaker
Yeah, I mean, and like a lot of the work that I do is called to people in other markets anyway. So um even if I was in the office, there's no point in me being in the office because they're not in the office.
00:06:53
Speaker
um But I think I want to pick up on one of the points that you made, which was about the kind of start of the career experience in the office. I have definitely noticed like in the pandemic, people who did not work in the office before the pandemic ever have some like really quite strange behaviours that I think just probably wouldn't have existed if they had been in an office environment and sort of learned by osmosis and observation of what is kind of normal or, you know, something ah maybe don't wear trackies into the office or, you know, a football shirt. And, you know, um things like that. And then and then I think it's also that there is a really different mindset in my experience of managing people in the early 20s where the threshold of like, what keeps them at home, and like,
00:07:46
Speaker
also what they disclose to their manager is very low. If you ask them to come in, like, you know, we'll be like, Oh, we've got a team down Wednesday. And they'll be like, Oh, but I've got an Amazon package being delivered. And you're like, yeah for yeah Yeah, I agree. I think there's a really, I think there are really, really big differences um that that are most marked in people who got their first job in the pandemic, for sure. And that's why I think it is
00:08:17
Speaker
really actually very valid to ask those people to kind of come back in and integrate IRL. um Because, you know, the the norms and stuff, they might they might shift a bit and I think they really have shifted towards a more flexible outlook on work. But things like wearing trackies to work, I mean, it's just not, that's not going to be something that like flies, I don't think, in the majority of and working environments. And I also think with the like epidemic of loneliness in, in that, in that generation and in the generation that were at university during the pandemic and had to do it remote, it's it's really, it's a great way to get to know people
00:09:01
Speaker
and have more social connection. And I think that's really, really important. And I certainly look back on my first few jobs as places where I made like some of my incredibly good friends. um And I would have hated doing that early 20s and mid 20s chapter without the in-person connection is so true like all of my adult made friends are all friends that I've picked up from different places I've worked and like that's actually just a huge part of my 20s but I think your loneliness point is really interesting and I also wonder whether it's partly fueled by social anxiety from from these these youngsters um because so I ah do a bit of work with a local school and they have kind of um
00:09:53
Speaker
a pattern in persistently absent students. And the common theme amongst all of them is they just have anxiety about being around other people. And I think that's really messed. I actually really feel for people who hadn't fully formed their like social capabilities when they were told not to hang out with anyone because that's ah sad.
Supporting Parents and Work-Life Balance
00:10:13
Speaker
A hundred percent. And yeah, I mean, I definitely have that within my family. People that really struggle with social anxiety um that that and it was triggered so by the pandemic, more school age, as you say. But yeah, I just, you know, without your university freshers week, like that all being online. I mean, oh breakout rooms. or makeout rooms um But yeah, really, I do think it's important that there are like,
00:10:41
Speaker
opportunities for those people to come and connect in real life, develop those social skills, meet meet a wider variety of people than you tend to meet in universities, like, and possibly schools. um So, yeah, I just think there's something really important about that. First couple of jobs, getting some ah IRL experience, but I think what I do believe to be really important about flexible working is like, what it has done for parents and caregivers of all kinds. And I think that the benefits there can can't really be ignored. um yeah And yeah, obviously we're not parents yet, but
00:11:27
Speaker
certainly something from a kind of higher higherer as the employer perspective is like I also respect like core hours as a setup so you can like work their own you know work around their own lives and especially around like caregiving responsibilities and yeah I do think that a really hard line on like five days a week, long hours in the office, you know, you are now going to exclude most parents. Like, I think that's true. ah That's, I think that's really fair. And um I think a courthouse is really good, actually, because it also just accounts for people who just have totally different preferences about
00:12:09
Speaker
working in the morning. Like I actually have quite a few friends who are like, crack of dawn, wake up and like knock out their best work before aam, which is that like polar opposite of me. um And I'm always like, how have you done so much work? And like, I've literally had a coffee. um But I like the blood in the evening. So I think that's also just a helpful thing to do. But you're right about flexible working being more of a feminist issue. um particularly for women who are more likely to have those caring responsibilities. um And i I suppose, I mean, i I'm really lucky that I work in a really flexible environment. I'm sure you do as well in your role. But I'm also sure that there are many women who have changed their employment based on um the ability to get these sorts of accommodations that are like, who arranged for school to finish in the middle of the day? Like, who does that?
00:13:05
Speaker
Yeah, it's crazy.
Face-to-Face Interactions and Team Culture
00:13:08
Speaker
um And it's it's so hard. And of course, like, yeah, when there are hard deadlines in your day, like the kids get left at the school gate, you know, you're going to be there. Like, that's the truth, right? If your job doesn't flex around it, then the thing that's going to have to change is probably the job. And I do think that that is a quite big attitudinal shift from the employees that came with the pandemic is like actually not going to
00:13:37
Speaker
I'm not going to just put everything in my life on hold for work. And are even really, really hardworking people I know have softened because of like the complete lack of work-life balance many people had, including us, during those like two years. I think it just gave a lot of people more perspective about like balance and and a few boundaries. um So yeah, I think it's really interesting. What do you what do you think, as ah as someone that is quite pro, flexible working, working from home, what do you think are the benefits of in-person, if anything? So when I was running a bigger team, that was definitely, for me, the most important reason to come into the office was to, um I think part of it when you're a team leader is
00:14:31
Speaker
ah being responsible for the culture that you set in the team. And I mean, really important that when you're working with your colleagues, you're spending 40 plus hours a week with them that you actually have a positive experience with that. So and When I was running a bigger team, we would do, um you can pick two days out of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday to come in. So really likely to have a crossover with most people or like we would once a month get a team lunch or something. And I just think that's really important for kind of social cohesion, and which helps the collaboration and it just helps people's enjoyment and fulfillment. But I think also just, um it's a lot easier to kind of undertake your pastoral responsibilities in person.
00:15:14
Speaker
I found yeah it is so difficult to understand how someone's wellbeing is when you're not physically with them. And I think you get so much from just like their their body language or like whether they're sighing or whether they you know they're like rubbing their forehead aggressively or you know crying. um you know you can do You could hide all of those things if you're at home and you you just wouldn't you wouldn't know. And I think you could just see a lot more um together. So I think that's really important. And then I would add, It's probably better to have really difficult conversations in person than on Zoom. I was actually, that's what I was going to ask you is, you know, do you think there are some conversations that should only really be had in person? And I think if you're having a difficult performance conversation or a difficult feedback session, you would really ideally do that face to face. Like I remember I tried to do one and um this was a person who did not love coming into the office.
00:16:11
Speaker
And I'd sort of been like very encouraging of them coming and had booked a room and then they just didn't turn up to the office. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, I did want to do this in person, but unfortunately it's not worked out that way. So we had to do it over the scene, but I would never choose, I would never choose to do that because I think you lose a lot of kind of empathy um and like sensing of what's going on when it's over the screen. Yeah, and I think there's those physical cues, like you said, ah and body language, which is it's so much easier to read like tone when you can see someone's full body both ways, right? You know, both negative tone and positive tone. um I think it can be incredibly difficult to read how some people are doing when you only see their like floating head on a screen for months.
00:17:04
Speaker
um and Yeah, I am sure that I have been guilty of um of missing a lot of important things as a like line manager and like a team leader because you know so much of our work is remote. I definitely would say if you're going to fire someone, um in most cases, unless there's a really good reason not to. And that really good reason might be that that person is really uncomfortable, like coming in at in that like, you know, state that they might be in. But otherwise, I think it's like respectful to have those kinds of conversations
00:17:43
Speaker
in person, um especially often as people leave immediate, like they leave the company immediately after that. So don't have that much connection and, you know, if you think they need more support, it's easier to be able to tell that they are in a position where they might need more support. um So that's definitely one and I think it's like much nicer also if you're doing the good news stuff of like promoting people and as you say kind of team celebrations like you can do team celebrations.
00:18:15
Speaker
like online. I mean, I remember Alva's class party was online and it was so fucking bleak. That's the pandemic flashback of like us all doing like weird online activities like an online escape room or something horrific. Yeah. I remember Oz was like really it was really sweet and we did gingerbread making virtually which was really cute and then at the end I just told them you know thank you so much like have a great Christmas stuff and I just I was just crying I was crying so much and I think they they all probably just shut their laps up and were like oh my god you know what the fuck is this woman but um but yeah I mean I don't think that that was anywhere near as fun as like
00:18:59
Speaker
you know doing gingerbread houses would have been if we'd been together in person so yeah exactly and and um yeah so i think there is like the the really positive stuff it's nice to do in person the really negative stuff i think is like respectful to do it in person unless there's a reason not to and um Yeah, I probably have a preference for like any feedback session that's like quite well thought through and mutual. Ideally, I would prefer that in person, because again, you can sense tone, and um and it can be so much more relaxed, I think.
00:19:37
Speaker
mutually when you can see that someone is not like coming at you. But when it's just a talking head, it it can be
Evaluating Work Output and Expectations
00:19:43
Speaker
hard. You know, I'm someone that like gesticulates a lot, I move around a lot. And I think that that could in some ways be negative if you're just a talking head on a screen. I don't know why I keep saying talking head. i do say that um Okay, so I want to talk about um trust in a hybrid working. environment because I think this is this is usually the the the great divider of who who has to or doesn't have to go into the office and um I guess the sort of more old school view of it is um if I can see you I know that you're working what what do we think about that
00:20:26
Speaker
So I believe and want to be someone that judges people purely on output. Like that is definitely where I want to be. And on a good day, I am that person. I do think that on a bad day, I can not be that person. I can admit that like, especially if, especially if I feel that there are like urgent problems to solve. And I do not feel an urgency from my team to solve them. a And I'm there sort of like waiting for us to kind of get going on this. And there's a bit of a kind of laissez-faire, let's all kind of dial in at 11, kind of
00:21:14
Speaker
approach that just for me is like, right, tomorrow I'd like to see you as 8am in the office. Like, and I do, i I think it's, it's probably a development area, but I do think that I mostly try and be a very outcome based person, but there are definitely days where I slip into a more old school. i'm kind of way of being. um And yeah, I think that, um you know, I've definitely been known to say like, well, the working day, it starts at nine, you know? And I think that people that I've worked with, that I can be honest with, I have i have definitely expressed frustration when I don't feel like people are,
00:22:07
Speaker
really online until kind of 10. Do you know what, like, unless we've agreed that your core hours are different, which is a totally different thing, I'm fine. If it's just like, oh, I'm at home, so I'm not gonna, not gonna be on until kind of 10 ish. It's egregiously late, though. Honestly, like, the reason I think in there's so far Well, in the cultures I've been in recently, so I've had the corporate experience where you couldn't not be online at 10 because the meetings start at nine. They start at nine. That's my life. Exactly. And they barrage you until five and then you can do your work after that. Whereas in startups, you know, there is a lot more flexibility often. There are far fewer meetings in my experience because you're usually doing
00:23:00
Speaker
you know, higher levels of output, that's only, I can only say that from my experience, but like, that's what I would say. So therefore, you know, there aren't these hard lines in the day of like, we check in at nine. There probably are in some places, but there aren't in some of the places I've been. And yeah, I think on my worst weeks, I can definitely be a bit like, minimum, I am expecting, minimum, a nine to five. Absolutely, absolutely bare minimum.
Flexibility and Performance in Workplaces
00:23:28
Speaker
um But yeah, I, I, I try to still be outcome based. She says that she shouts a bare minimum nine to five. ah the I think it's also, I think it depends on who you're working with and what they're like and what they're motivated by. Like if, if I'm working with a really high performer, I am not keeping a single
00:23:49
Speaker
moment of my life. I'm like, so true. You can manage it however you want. I really don't care. I think the difference is when you get into sort of the medium to low performers. And that's when the doubt starts to creep in about like, ah are you actually working the whole time? yeah And I think it's quite difficult to convince yourself out of that mindset when when you've got that creeping doubt starting to set in. um Yeah, you're 100% right. and And I think it would say if you if they if there are a couple of hours during the working day when they're like not responsive to you,
00:24:31
Speaker
I'm immediately like, well, you're not working, are you? Well, like feasibly, they they they probably could be working. They could have just like closed their IMs to focus, which is what I also do. So like, that's very hypocritical to me, but it is difficult to know when there isn't a solid drum of output and a constant responsiveness. You're like, nurse not convinced. Yeah, and you're right, you know, it is, It is something to like manage and reflect on, right because some jobs require so much more like deep work. like Engineering is such an obvious one. you know They may not be online all day, but they may have done so much in the code base. i mean Obviously, other engineers can usually see that. But but but like you know as a manager of engineers, for example, I wouldn't necessarily be all red flagged if they haven't replied on Slack.
00:25:27
Speaker
um but you are totally right that all the times I can now think of where I'm like, you work a nine to five and that is contractual, is when someone is definitely a ah ah mid mid to low kind of performer or or just very early. you know I would say like, if I don't yet feel someone is like, fully knows what they're doing, and I would expect them to be asking a lot of questions, I can sometimes be like, oh, okay, given that thing, I haven't heard anything, that's a bit, it's a bit weird. But as you say, it's like, it's the combination of kind of lack of responsiveness, but also low output, that then, you know, you start to get your sort of back up a bit, but yeah. What is the answer? Is the answer you're allowed more freedom when you're higher performing? Is that?
00:26:20
Speaker
Well, I think that will always be true, right? I think that's just a natural phenomenon. I think it is about like building trust and actually being quite, um quite, what's the word I'm looking for? deliberate about setting your ways of working. So, for example, if you are if you are someone that likes to, from 9 till 10 every day, clear your email inbox and therefore not be on Slack or not be on Teams Messenger. That's fine, right? Just tell tell Manager Beck that that's what you do and you just like to have a clean-out and you like to just sort and it's like that's how you get organised and that's how you start your day.
00:26:59
Speaker
I think it wouldn't take an hour every day. But like, you know, there might be, there might be like, that's the first kind of 30 minutes and so they don't want meetings. And that's really reasonable. Or if you do have, ah I think, a core hours need, that's also totally fine. Just say it, say it to your team, say it to the people you work most with. And I've seen a lot of seen a lot of people start to put in their email signatures, like, my core hours are this, but I, so, so therefore I work flexibly in the evenings. I don't expect a response from you, but I will be sending emails at all hours kind of thing. Yeah. um Which I also think is fine. It's very clear. Like, okay, you don't want. Can I say something a bit snarky now? Yeah. Be as snarky as you want. I, my least favourite email to receive is the ones where you know that they just want you to know
00:27:50
Speaker
the timestamp that they sent it. This has no correlation to like childcare or anything. It's just like ah sending a really unimportant email at like 9 p.m. being like, let's discuss tomorrow. And you're like, you could have just spoken to me tomorrow. Yeah. Okay. Poor behaviour. This is like weird online presenteeism. um I don't. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. wrong like Not interested. And they're probably just watching TV. Yeah. why but i Enjoy your TV. I'd respect that a lot more. I think the thing that I'm really guilty of is like, so I do, as you know, I'm like so sporadic on communication professionally, personally.
00:28:38
Speaker
you know, it can come at any time in any form. and um But lots of people have given me feedback that like, you you shouldn't you shouldn't be emailing me at the weekend, I don't want to get stuff on Sunday. hu So I think a horrible habit of mine that I have gotten to is just timed emails. So... ah using my using Gmail like 8am Monday everyone in the team gets like 18 different emails with all of my like separate thoughts that I have had over the weekend that I haven't been like allowed to share um and that was definitely um that was definitely something I sort of picked up in in corporate land because I was a bit like okay it actually seems that
00:29:26
Speaker
I can only work really on weekends. I can only do my like thinking on weekends and evenings. But you know, this is a much more nine to five culture. There are a lot more parents I do want to respect like, you know, that. So yeah, I just got into this terrible habit of it would be like 8am Monday, you get everything. It's like, oh, actually, Annie, at 8am, I got 17 emails from you today. It's like when you get off a plane and you've done loads of work and you like hit the wifi and you're like, enjoy that. ah yeah
00:29:58
Speaker
um let's Let's take some some listener questions.
Office Presence vs. Remote Meetings
00:30:02
Speaker
um How do I get my team to come back to the office? They all want to work from home all the time. Well, it's Cara or Stick. It's up to you really. What do you do with your team? I mean, if they haven't done anything wrong, it's definitely like carrot, you know, it's like, wouldn't it be fun to do this in person? Let's have a brainstorm on this. You know, let's go for a drink after work to celebrate X. You know, obviously that's the preferred, the preferred way is to kind of. In tantalize them back into your post-it notes. That's how I normally we do that. I'm like, we'll get the post-it notes out. She can be fantastic.
00:30:39
Speaker
take Nothing beats in-person collaboration. Laptops closed. Let's all get together. Exactly. A workshop. We'll say the little phrases you can dangle in front as a little carrot. Everyone likes a workshop day. um negative is like, we're just not making any progress on this. Everyone's got to come in tomorrow so that we can. I have to admit, I i can't think of a time where I have like done that. um Where it has been like, team performance is so poor that I've like pulled them kind of back into the office. But I can definitely one on one think of lots of times where it's been like, I've really liked to go through this in person. You know, I think we're missing a few things.
00:31:23
Speaker
Yeah, like more of a kind of feedback and like, let's actually solve this problem together. um But yeah, I would say much more on balance. It's about kind of making it tempting and and fun and productive to be in the office. I think the thing that I really understand about the frustration of being asked to come in and often, you know, for some people travel significant distances if you moved outside of London and is when you come in no one is there. And then the person that you thought was gonna be there is like, oh, sorry, wires crossed, this meeting's now ra remote. I've heard some absolutely insane things with interviews recently where people have like flown countries to be at an in-person interview and then like people have made the meeting remote when the person's from there off. That is the most completely insane thing I have
00:32:23
Speaker
ever. That's bad. But yeah, I think mostly when I hear people complaining, and I would be interested to get your perspective on this as well, but mostly when I hear people complaining about like, or coming back into the office, it's because they are like, well, no one does anything in the office. There isn't this there is an in person collaboration. There aren't important discussions. that like need us to be in person. So you're just actually watching me, which then it's, and maybe you are right because of what we've just said, but like it's it's a bit like, well, they just sort of want to watch me to make sure I'm working and I resent that a bit. So I think- If anyone watched me in the office, they would think I was the least productive person on the planet because the office is like my work socializing day. And that's when I get the least amount of work done, but it's when I get my most like relationship building done.
00:33:14
Speaker
And I don't think relationship building necessarily has to feel like there's a productive output to it specifically. Like I think it's just, it's, you know, enables you to be able to be better at your job. But honestly, if someone watched me in the office, they'd be like, she gasses all day. That's influencing, Isn't that That's how we influence. of Maybe. um ah Maybe not all of the chat that I have. But um I remember in the office explaining to like a bunch of people, you won't know this, but um a very dramatic thing that happened on a TV show called Scan to Val. um ah yeah yeah And it took like half an hour and there was like diagrams and everyone was like looking at me like you're insane. But you know, it can't all be work. It's got to be a bit of play.
00:34:04
Speaker
ah um And I think that philosophy is actually a good way to get people back to the office is like, it can't all be work. Yeah. For for me, for me going into the office is like a joy day rather than like a slog day. I'll do my slog days at home, like deep work, comfiest clothes on and like you buckle down and you do it. I don't wanna sit in the office and buckle down and ignore everyone. I wanna sit in the office and be like, what's happening over here? Like, oh, I've heard about this, tell me more, blah, blah, blah. And like, it's much more organic than yeah than anything remote, so.
00:34:42
Speaker
And often, you know, in large companies, it might be the only time that you really socially connect with with other large parts of the business that you never see. Like I definitely found that as simply health, you know, like walking through the office, you'd see like the finance team, you'd see the tech team, you see all of these teams, which, you know, some of them I worked closely with, but others, like I didn't. And it was really, it was really nice to be able to kind of like stand there and have a little chat and see them all, you know, um What was I going to say?
Deep Work and Office Environment Challenges
00:35:12
Speaker
I think I'm interested to know what type of work you think then best happens at home because you just touched upon it, right? Yeah, so it's the kind of day when
00:35:27
Speaker
i I just had to do something really complicated and a piece of analysis that actually took me about two days of like combing through lots of different inputs and working out how like 15 different markets do something and then coming up with a recommendation when there are like, I don't know, hundreds of dimensions of difference between them. um that is the kind of thing that I cannot do in the office. I cannot do interrupted. I like fully need to focus and get in the zone. yeah And like that's what I would never do in the office. Other work I wouldn't do in the office is like staff sensitive work. So yeah restructuring anything like that, you cannot pull up your PowerPoint in the off in the open plan. So yeah i would I would never do that.
00:36:16
Speaker
um ah in the office, like that's not fine. And you know, part of that is part of my job. And that's just confidential. And that would be stupid to do in the office. And then I think, go on. I was gonna say, do you have enough flexibility in your work setup right now that you can actually plan your days around like, oh, I'm gonna, I need to do that that day. And that's pretty sensitive. So I'll stay at home. So I only like, I have, it's just me and one other person who I absolutely adore and we go in every Wednesday because we want to hang out. But other than that, we don't go into the office unless like someone is coming in from overseas or like there's a reason that we need to be in or you know, leaving drinks, whatever.
00:36:56
Speaker
um But I do plan the rest of my week around those blocks of deep work. I really hate the concept of deep work. It basically just means concentrating. um so i don't I haven't read the book about it. I don't know if I'd recommend the book, but um aye I would. course you have. You're such a nerd. um But it's, it's the work that you you just genuinely need to do uninterrupted because you're on such a like complex thought train. And the other thing that I probably like a load of my calls are international.
00:37:33
Speaker
um So I don't need to be in the office. My worst day in the office is when I have a bunch of Zoom calls like globally that I'm just like I could just be sat at home and then I could get have my own snacks. Yeah and sometimes the office You know, one thing I'm i'm finding, so so I probably don't have enough um foresight into my schedule where I could be like, oh, that needs to be done that day. So that's definitely an at-home day. Sometimes I do, but not definitely not all the time. um But like what I've really noticed about, we we have a co-working space, and I do think a real consideration for the employer
00:38:13
Speaker
is our co-working space is getting incredibly distracting, like to the point where I definitely cannot do anything that requires a lot of deep work in the office. And I think there is a bit of a like responsibility on the employer if they're going to ask people to come in for specific reasons, to not only like be there for those reasons and like for them to be justifiable, but also to make sure that that environment like is a place where you could have a meeting, a private meeting room and discuss a restructuring like is is actually a working environment where you can do the things that you've asked them to come in for. Yeah, and I think that in the co working spaces, you see a lot like quite weirdly sensitive like company strategy meetings like happening on a large table in a kitchen and I'm like
00:39:05
Speaker
That is like nuts. And I wouldn't, I really wouldn't enjoy that because I wouldn't feel comfortable to like, you know, necessarily share like everything that I was thinking. So I think there's an interesting, um there's an interesting employer responsibility of like, you really have to think about the environment you're creating and what you want and expect of your team. Because if they're constantly distracted by a really noisy environment, you may not get your like deep work outputs um at the rate that you expect. Can I just share one of my anecdotes? So this was, um, if anyone was listening in the team, you'll know exactly who I'm talking about. Um, this hilarious woman who used to manage a team that I was in. And at the time I thought it was really strange and like, as I've got older and more experienced, I'm like, she's a freaking genius. It was just pre pandemic. She used to come to the office, not with noise canceling headphones, but like ear defenders.
00:40:02
Speaker
Like the kind of things that you like build as well. She just didn't want any sound. is like She was just like, I need silence. Fair enough. Fair enough. I love that vibe. Yeah, like it's it's definitely, where as our office has got busier, I have like started to notice that there are types of work that, and it's not just me, it's like that the whole team cannot do in person. So then we we have to think probably a bit more carefully about our actual office setup maybe. But um but yeah, it's ah it's interesting. What other listener questions do we have, if any, on this? So we have, um this is a really interesting question. um Flexible working is obviously good for parents. Does that mean the same rules have to apply for everyone? Isn't that the fairest thing? Yes. but Yeah, I agree.
00:40:56
Speaker
Like, I do think you can't easily justify one rule for some and another rule for others, especially not when it's about your life choices and your setup. um what i don't What I think we've kind of covered before is like, I do think there are individual cases where you can be like, I need you to come into the office to do X, Y, Z. But I think it would be really hard at a company level to say, parents can have three days at home, but non-parents can't. Yeah, super interesting. And as a non-parent, I'm grateful to all of the parents who have paved the way for all of us. Thank you for your
00:41:41
Speaker
work on this we appreciate you. Yeah and I think it is one really big positive of the pandemic it is this is that it has changed massively the corporate world's attitudes towards flexible working and I think that is really a really really positive thing and I don't think it will bounce back to where it was before and I think that's a good thing overall all um but yeah yeah yeah you can't have one rule for salmon you can't Well, or or I guess you can, right? But I just think it's very, very hard to manage that level of complexity. And why would you? It doesn't seem very just.
Managing Work Flexibility with Childcare
00:42:19
Speaker
Yeah. Although like, I agree with absolutely everything you've said. I'm just thinking of an example of like, if I see a parent leaving the office at like 334, I'm like, good on you, doing the pickup. But if I see a non-parent leaving, I'm like, where are you going?
00:42:39
Speaker
There's still but stop two more hours of the work, jay um yeah obviously, a prejudice that I hold on to. And maybe like this is a thing that will we'll look back on. And when Jen said, become our boss, they'll be like, you know you guys are crazy. um But i can't I find it a bit difficult to to soften that position. when like you see people like arriving really late or leaving really early and they're they're not like, it doesn't feel like there's a legitimate excuse. Again, maybe this goes back to trust. and Yeah, was i was going to say I was going to say literally the same thing you said to me earlier to like reflect back at you, which is like, what if that person was your top performer? Yeah.
00:43:26
Speaker
you'd probably just think, yeah, they've got a doctor's appointment. They're probably just going to that. You'd assume you'd assume that there's like a legitimate reason. Whereas if it's somewhat where you haven't had the output that you're looking for for like three weeks, you ye might not. yeah Or that's how it would be for me as well. um I think one thing on one thing that's interesting though with like parents, that I think can be really hard to talk about as a manager is when flexibility goes very far. And for example, there are like babies in meetings, like kids on the phone. like And it starts to feel that there is like regularly childcare going on in working hours without agreement that that's OK. And um I think that that's
00:44:20
Speaker
in all honesty, something to be like nipped in the bud quite fast, because the longer you leave it, the harder that conversation gets. And I think that there are absolutely legitimate days where that happens. Like like yeah he the kid has vomited at nursery and you have to go and pick it up. of course. yeah But I have definitely heard and not not experienced anywhere I work, but like I have heard of places where that's like a one day a week, there's you know, Billy in the background kind of thing. And I think what's difficult about that is Billy maybe
00:44:54
Speaker
an angel child and really good but I think it is hard if you're the other person on the end of the phone when you like know there's a child in the room and you know that you may not have the full attention and they're like active listening of the person you are speaking to it can just be subconsciously distracting I think. um Yeah I mean the solution to this is like better and more affordable childcare, but unfortunately that's not in our control. Exactly, 100% that is the solution. And, you know, that is a real, like, let's hope that whatever the new government is takes that problem seriously because it's an absolute joke in this country, the childcare system, but like, um but I do think that that is something that has to be managed or just talked about like, do you need core hours? Do we need to agree a different setup?
00:45:46
Speaker
Um, I would find it very difficult to believe that you could routinely look after a child and do a full day of work at the same time. Um, just because like it's hard enough to concentrate on your own at home working. Like if you have a whole person to be responsible for as well, that's, you know, sometimes my cat vomits in a meeting and I'm like, Oh God, I'm so sorry. Um, yeah. And I mean, I work in the most like, female friendly, progressive environment, right? And babies, babies are there, not in this way, you know, not not in an um unwanted way. But like, there are meetings where there are babies, because you know, we're a women's health company and people have kids. But it is like, it's not the norm, right? It's like the odd and
00:46:35
Speaker
and an informal meeting it's like an end-of-week catch-up like team you know reflect meeting it's not something where people have to use their real kind of brain power um or on this very few occasions where it has been that there's obviously like an apology and an acknowledgement of it which isn't needed because like you know, from my perspective, I'm okay. But I do think a new person coming in, for example, could find that really difficult to like get used to. um But yeah, I mean, I'm very proud of like how flexible the place I work is at the moment, I think is absolutely amazing. And I've learned a lot about how flexible environments can be. But also, yeah, I think I just think you have to be careful with
00:47:22
Speaker
Yeah, the extent of flexibility that you do give parents, um because it has to, it's it is that trust thing, I think, again, it's like you trust that that if they're doing what they say, as well as you giving you know your flexibility to them.
Discussion Summary and Work-from-Home Perks
00:47:38
Speaker
Yeah. And that was it for the list of questions. Is there anything else on hybrid working for you? No. How would we sum up this episode? We love hybrid working. And specifically, we love high performers in hybrid work. But perhaps we are less convinced about mid to low performers in a hybrid environment. And yeah, that perhaps we would be less lenient on those. Is that fair? Do you think? Yeah, I might say, um you know,
00:48:17
Speaker
If earn your trust and maybe consider earning trust in person, talk to your manager if you do need um core hours or an adjustment, so there is going to be flexibility like set those boundaries quite clearly. If you are in a period where you're not performing as well, potentially expect that some of that flexibility might be slightly reigned in as a bit of a natural response to like, I'm not sure what's going on. I haven't seen them in a while. You know, maybe there is a bit of like, just a natural kind of rain back on the flexibility in those scenarios.
00:48:55
Speaker
And yeah, you know, you have the right, I think, to ask or to check if you're being asked to come into the office, is everyone going to be there? Are we doing this in person? And you can expect, I think, as an employee to have a good working environment for the type of work that you are being asked to do. Yours was more constructive than mine. Well done. The only thing I will say is just like a final vote for working from home. my The highlight for me of working from home is that you can put your laundry on during the workday and that means you don't get locked in to your flat on a Saturday during your laundry.
00:49:34
Speaker
That I'd say is probably the major routine perk that I experience and I'm delighted about. But I just want to give that a bit of time too, because it all felt a bit serious. Yeah. ah Great. I would say the main perk from going in is that you often get some sort of free food from your office establishment. So it's true. There's a man who walks around our office at four o'clock. I don't know if he does it every day, but he does it every Wednesday. with biscuits and I call him Biscuit Mark and I absolutely love him and it really makes my day. So who doesn't want snacks? Right, well, it was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Thanks for listening, everyone. It's been a joy. um We will be coming to you next episode with our final episode of the first season of the career coven. So thank you for listening. Please give us lots of stars, share with the pals and enjoy whatever you're doing this weekend.
00:50:28
Speaker
um um