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S3, E1 The Career Coven: Personal Advisory Boards
49 Plays21 days ago
We’re starting season 3 of the Career Coven strong, with an episode on having a personal career advisory board. Get the expert take on the value of career advisory boards and learn about how we’ve both approached having career advisors around us.
This episode covers:
- Why women need a personal advisory board
- How important advisory boards can be in periods of transition (e.g. return to work, navigating maternity leave, changing roles or organisations)
- How to choose your board members, and how to balance them
- How to ask someone to be on your board
- How to maintain relationships with advisors
- Who is on our own advisory boards (beyond just each other).
Also get the massive life updates from Annie and Bec after a bit of a break in the pod...
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think!
Recommendations from this episode:
- Jan Torrisi-Mokwa, Building Career Equity
- Herminia Ibarra, How to do sposorship right (2022)
- Tara Mohr, Playing Big: For Women Who Want to Speak Up, Stand Out and Lead (2015)
- Rakshitha Arni Ravishankar, Finding The Right Mentor, Harvard Business Review (2023)
Recommended
Transcript
Introduction to The Career Coven
00:00:06
Speaker
Welcome to The Career Coven, the podcast for serious careers with unserious chat. I'm Bec, a coach, corporate citizen and recovering perfectionist. And I'm Annie, workaholic, slowly learning boundaries.
00:00:20
Speaker
Each episode, we unpack career challenges and workplace wisdom through honest conversations, practical tools and a healthy dose of real talk. So you can thrive on your own terms. Let's get into it today.
Personal Life Updates
00:00:33
Speaker
So Bec, how are you? How have you been? How have I been, Annie? I've been great. It's been quite a while since we've done this. It feels like we've just reconnected through the computer after such a long time. And so much has happened and changed since we last recorded almost a year ago.
00:00:50
Speaker
i know it's like, we're so deeply out of practice that hopefully everyone will forgive us. But yeah, lots of people have like asked me in a good way about the podcast over the last few months. And I was like, we actually haven't recorded anything for so many months because we packed season two into the pre-baby, pre-new job phase, which was to in true Beck style, like incredibly efficient and effective.
00:01:15
Speaker
So well done us. But yeah, i'm i'm I'm very well. I'm very well. Talk to me about what's changed in your life. Talk to us all. What's changed? Give us the updates.
Motherhood and Career Impact
00:01:25
Speaker
What's the update? So since we last recorded, my baby arrived, of course.
00:01:30
Speaker
Sweet little man. i love him so much. And I've also never been more tired in my entire life. oh It's been, recording this at six months. He's just like a gorgeous little smiley man. He loves everyone. He gets like confused. He's when members of the public don't smile at him.
00:01:48
Speaker
He's just great. Love that. He is such a smiley little man. He's my favourite. He's like really chunky and really big and really robust. And we've just started solid and it's mad and messy and wonderful and great. So yeah, really totally obsessed with my child. That's obviously an original thought as a mother.
00:02:07
Speaker
But yeah, it's been it's been like a big journey. I think motherhood was... in some ways really similar, in some ways really different to what I expected. ah huge, I think a huge change.
00:02:18
Speaker
And i I don't yet know what that means for me for work, because I'm still off work at the moment. I've got a few more months before I'm planning on going back. So working through, I think, what this whole period means for like shifts in identity, but we could just talk about that for forever.
Marriage and Career Change Reflections
00:02:35
Speaker
so What's been happening with you, Annie? Yeah, I got married. And as you can hear, Susan's very happy about it in the background. and Always getting on the podcast, Susan.
00:02:46
Speaker
Always. But yeah, just got married. And that's a real delight. And started a new job, which... It's not that new anymore because of what we just said about how long it's been. But that has had its own kind of challenges, learnings, like epiphanies along the way, which has been interesting.
00:03:06
Speaker
I tend to be someone, as we talked about before, that like quite likes change and like moving and doing new things. so But I would say this one has been really, really quite like quite a new set of learnings I've got from this job so far.
00:03:20
Speaker
So, when yeah, there's lots to lots to unpack. over the course of the season but overall you know like personal life I would say is probably the main highlight I'm a married woman now yeah and uh yeah not something I actually always thought I'd do but I guess he's pretty decent he's such an obvious man to marry that's what I keep saying it's just like yeah of course He's a no brainer, that guy. you know He's a no brainer.
00:03:49
Speaker
Even on the day I was like, it's a bit annoying that i didn't pick someone that's a bit more like left left field or like bit of a surprise. But I'm like, it's so obvious that like this is this is exactly the man that anyone would marry, but definitely I would marry.
00:04:03
Speaker
So he he's definitely your Ken. He's my Ken and he's been that since early doors. He's been that since early doors. So yeah, what what a nice what a nice thing. Oh, so much. Okay. um I mean, we'll span out our chat over the whole season.
What are Personal Advisory Boards?
00:04:20
Speaker
So let's not give our listeners all of the good bits now.
00:04:23
Speaker
Because otherwise i'm goingnna have nothing to say next week other than that I still haven't slept, but I love my baby a lot. the and And I want you to know, i really do want you to know that we're all completely fine with you saying how you haven't slept and how you love your baby.
00:04:41
Speaker
It's allowed to creep in. Don't worry. Great. Okay. Okay. Thanks. I appreciate that. I am. You, Annie, are definitely privy to my sleeping habits because I watch Married at First Sight when I'm awake at 2am and message Annie just a bit of commentary unsolicited.
00:04:59
Speaker
I hope your phone's on Do Not Disturb. It is a always on Do Not to Disturb. And also, i think that that's like a quite an apt way to get into the conversation topic of today because part of my experience personal career board, which is, or personal advisory board, which is what we're going to be speaking about today, is actually ah WhatsApp group which started because of maths.
00:05:21
Speaker
And that is um something I'm particularly proud of. It's a great WhatsApp group. So just for the benefit of the listeners, it also involves Claire from ah season two.
00:05:33
Speaker
and And it's a lovely, lovely trio of really supportive career chat and married at first sight commentary, the perfect balance.
00:05:44
Speaker
and So yeah, good segue. Let's just start with what's on the agenda for our topic of building your personal advisory board.
Origins of Personal Advisory Boards
00:05:52
Speaker
So we're going to cover what that board is on the feed, what are the expert takes on personal advisory boards, why women need one and what makes a good one, and then some practical discussion on choosing and engaging your board and navigating boundaries and long-term relationships and we'll give you a recap at the end too long didn't listen on nice our kind favorite take in our summary yeah let's get into it great okay what is a personal advisory board annie
00:06:25
Speaker
So I think there are like more formal definitions and maybe you should cover those back because I think you have done more research into this than me.
00:06:38
Speaker
But i would just think of it as a group of people that you go to for like career advice and definitely like more career specific advice than like life advice.
00:06:51
Speaker
It's not like a therapist or a coaching therapist. like scenario and it's not like a formal board in my mind it's not like you convene your board to meet every six weeks to discuss like whether you've progressed in the way that you expected I think it's more an informal group of people who you seek advice from who know you who understand you and you know them and you you can seek specific benefits from their wisdom from their expertise in a certain area and you have kind of chosen them as someone that you think can give you specifically like very useful advice so that's how I would think of my own personal advisory board what what about you Beg?
00:07:35
Speaker
Quite similar to you for me um and we can get into kind of how that's composed and and so like how do you recruit and so on I think the The concept of a board was originally proposed by jan Teresi Mokwa in her book, Building Career Equity. And this was actually, when I looked at it, i was like, oh, maybe I should read that. And then was like, oh, fuck no.
00:07:58
Speaker
it It was like... a professional services book from yeah at least one decade ago, which just didn't feel like it was going to be a contemporary literature to to to bank in.
00:08:12
Speaker
But the idea is that it's just a network of individuals who are advisors to you. And that's ah what kind of HBR defines it as. and And they use the word expansive, which I think is quite interesting, just thinking about getting a wide breadth of coverage and advice on that.
00:08:30
Speaker
I think technically there there's quite a wide spectrum of how people interpret what a board is and and how it's structured and how formal or informal it is I do not know anyone who has a really formal board.
00:08:44
Speaker
Me neither. I think that would be kind of weird. But I did i i did in the in in the HBR article that I'd read, read that some people do have actual kind of frequency and cadence and ah strategy around it in a way that I don't know. Maybe I should. i don't know. What do you think?
00:09:04
Speaker
Yeah. I mean, i definitely, I think it depends what sort of person you are, right? Like i I'm sort of someone who I think doesn't almost like doesn't face into issues until they're like right up in front of me.
00:09:18
Speaker
And therefore, and so I guess what I'm saying is like, I'm quite reactive, I think. And we've maybe covered that in some of our previous episodes about like career planning and stuff like that.
00:09:28
Speaker
So I think I would find it really challenging to formalize career. bored because I think that might be linked to having a very structured plan of like where you want to go But it is interesting
Reactive Career Planning and Advisory Boards
00:09:41
Speaker
to think about like there might be scenarios when that is the case.
00:09:45
Speaker
Like if I set my sights on like a certain promotion or ah certain like skill I wanted to develop maybe there would be ah kind of use case for more plan planning and structure around it but because I am someone that tends to just work like reactively and like sort of plan my life quite reactively i think I would that I would find it hard to like structure it out whereas actually given that you are someone that plans more I um it's kind of curious to yeah I'd be curious to get your take on whether you think that would work for you having something more structured
00:10:19
Speaker
Yeah, I'm kind of like confused at myself that I haven't done this. It sounds like a really me thing to do. But, you know, 2025 me has fuck all time. So yeah maybe not something that I will do. But for now, I think the way that I've done it is more organic and...
00:10:38
Speaker
And I think that's maybe a slightly different reframe of reactive. But over time, over my career, I think there have been people whose advice I really trust. And you meet more people and you gather more people in your network. And I actually hate the word network. I think networking is yucky in ah in a kind of stigmatized way.
00:11:00
Speaker
think it's actually just about like the relationships that you build and how and when you call on them. Yeah, yeah. which to me sort of feels more, sit it sits more naturally with me that I, I have had good relationships with people in a working context whose opinions I really value.
00:11:18
Speaker
And the relationship has to be sufficiently good that you can call on them in a personal capacity rather than like, I'm, I'm, I'm me in my job asking you a question about my job and we're in the same organization or something.
00:11:31
Speaker
Yeah. That's actually a really interesting way to, to sort of think about it because I think if I took that lens, that would, that would broaden my board.
Mentors and Sponsors in Career Paths
00:11:39
Speaker
You see what I mean? Because I think, yeah. And we, we should, we should get onto like, who's in, who's in, who's in boards typically for people and who's in ours. But I think that I, I actually probably do seek advice from specific people I've worked with in the past, um,
00:12:00
Speaker
more frequently but when I think about personal advisory board I was thinking about like four or five very specific people you included but the way you phrased it ah of like people that you respect that you like would seek would seek out but that you think they would be giving you their time on a like personal not sort of formal mentoring or formal coaching basis then that would that would actually broaden probably who would be in my overall like broader board and than than just these kind of core core people that I think I go to very very regularly
00:12:35
Speaker
e Yeah, I do think there's a sort of, I don't think there's a unilateral sort of person profile on the board because for each type of person, there's probably a different way of communicating with them, a different frequency. So actually, i think that's probably quite a distinction, important distinction to make around treating them all in in the way that's appropriate to that relationship. Should we go, should we talk about what's on the feed and what the experts are talking about?
00:13:01
Speaker
There's, and I'm so sorry if I mispronounce her name. Mm-hmm. Hermania, not sure, Ibarra. yeah We like what she says. So she's London Business School, INSEAD, Harvard formally, and she specializes in organizational behavior.
00:13:17
Speaker
And so her her take on this is that the board needs to be comprised of both mentors and sponsors, which I think is a really interesting angle to take. Because when I think about my board, I actually think there's probably not that many sponsors on there.
00:13:34
Speaker
And she also suggests that this is particularly helpful for women who are navigating nonlinear career paths. And actually, a lot of the literature talks about particularly returning to work from career gaps, as well as more generally changing career paths and pivoting and how you kind of need to pivot who's on that board according to the direction that you're going in because that always changes right yeah yeah what do you make of what do you make of herminia as someone on lot non-linear career path i would definitely say that it resonates like my the people i go to
00:14:15
Speaker
now are definitely very different to the people I went to when I had a more kind of corporate, you know, I, I guess I started off as a management consultant or a long time ago, and those people would be giving me like totally different advice to like the people I would seek advice from now.
00:14:30
Speaker
So yeah, i I think that really resonates. And I definitely can say that from the, from the point of a past life being female founder, which is a very non-linear career path. It's like a very uncertain career path.
00:14:43
Speaker
It's like, it was not something I did well surrounding myself with like mentors, informal mentors, people that had like done this before, people that could give me advice. Like I did it really badly. I would say I actually kind of was so all in that I didn't really look up and ask for help and support.
00:15:01
Speaker
But I think that would have been really, really valuable for that chapter of my career to have, not loads you know I don't think I would have had the energy or the time for like loads of people but to have even one or two yeah advisors mentors advocates yeah I was about to say what if you were doing it again what is the profile of person that you would have found most helpful at that time Yeah, I mean, I remember that I did try and get, i did try and find a female founder that had raised a VC round that was a few years ahead.
00:15:32
Speaker
And i i emailed a few people and most people came back, but everyone is so time poor. And that is a fucking small group of people. That's like 10 women in the country or something at the time at which I did it. It's just, it was just so small. And I think I had like one group I had Alice, who you spoke to, who was who was really great as a kind of support, but we were on like it's almost exactly the same trajectory. If anything, I raised like a little bit before her. And I had like one other person who also raised for a very similar type of business, who who was great actually in fairness. But I think what i was looking for is I was just looking for someone just a few years ahead because I was terrified about things like fundraising.
00:16:20
Speaker
I was like, who do I talk to you about the fact that 80 to 90% of the conversations I have, I feel like not only do people not care what I'm saying, but they actually don't even understand the topic I'm talking about at all, which was menopause at the time.
00:16:35
Speaker
And yeah, I kind of wanted someone that had done that. So like had been talking to investors, but about something that generally investors don't know anything about. It's like how to do that.
00:16:46
Speaker
How much time does it take? How to prepare yourself mentally? But yeah, everyone I reached out to, they were really nice. They're really kind, but they just said like, I'm so sorry because I would actually love to help like other people that are earlier than me, but I just don't have any bandwidth.
00:17:01
Speaker
And I'm like, yeah, I get it because i I probably, had I continued on that path, wouldn't have had much bandwidth either. So, but yeah, that's what I was looking for, was just looking for someone who'd have like been there and done it and who you could go to when you were like, oh my God, I'm going to quit.
00:17:18
Speaker
And they'd be like, yeah, that's totally normal to feel like you're going to quit at all times as a founder, but you're probably not. Like you're probably not. Or maybe, maybe there's scenarios where it's an interesting situation thing to explore whether you actually should if it's not working but like I um yeah I couldn't I didn't find many of those successfully but I think it I think it would have been super impactful and even when I think about those two people Alison and this other person like they effectively were on my advisory board and actually it was invaluable having some people at the same stage as me to just vent to
00:17:55
Speaker
and say like it's okay anyway that was bit of a ramble i do think there is space for peer group peer group members peers there's space for peers on a board for sure yeah there was one other bit of interesting reading around this topic which really struck me and actually i should have said this at the top in my updates but i've just completed training um to become an executive coach um Yay, coaching.
What is an Inner Mentor?
00:18:25
Speaker
Enjoyed my conversation with Seb so much in last season. and and No, it's something I've really wanted to do for a long time. So I'm really chuffed about it. And i had done an exercise with um a client this week around it, which was really powerful. So the concept is about inner mentor.
00:18:41
Speaker
um It's a phrase and a concept by a woman called Tara Moore. M-O-H-R, if you want to Google it. And it's, so the concept here is that it's not just about external advisors, but it's also about self-mentoring and kind of activating that. So the um the example of client work that I was doing this week was around someone who was at a bit of a crossroads in their career and wasn't sure how quite how they were going to get to the next stage and and what that looked like. And I think it was really helpful for them to think about themselves in in a number of years time you don't have to kind of as a coach you don't say what the number is but you know they could be like this could be you in 20 years time or it could actually be you in 12 months whatever is the helpful time frame and what would that person say to you and what is the profile of that person then um so like annie in 12 months time you know she's looking at you now going
00:19:37
Speaker
oh If only Annie now knew this, like she's so she's so clever and she's so bright and she's struggling with this thing, but she's handled it before and et cetera, et cetera. And I think part of that exercise you know, visioning for yourself and helping get a bit more clarity on things.
00:19:53
Speaker
what's ahead. But it's also about ah acknowledging that even if you have questions or things that you're struggling with, you are yourself actually and a really good resource, not just externals, and you are able to kind of cultivate within yourself and answer.
00:20:10
Speaker
It's just a helpful way of kind of em eliciting it. Yeah, God, I've been looking for my and inner mentor. I've been looking for it for like, how old am I? 34. I've been looking for it for at least 30 years.
00:20:22
Speaker
when When I was four, I started looking looking for it. No, no, I think this is a really useful concept. And it's definitely something I wish that I was like better at. Like self-reflection brought from a vantage point that is...
00:20:38
Speaker
like you in the future and what you think is important to you. I think if I did that, I would be, and I'm going to do it after this, but I think if I did that, I would be calmer. We can do it together afterwards. Yeah, we can do it together afterwards. That'd be great.
00:20:51
Speaker
But like, I'd be much, I think I would be much more calm and like long-term because I am so short in general. Everything's so reactive all the time and like working in the kind of business I do, which is a kind of startup.
00:21:04
Speaker
scale up thing everything feels like frantic on a day-to-day basis and I think something both me and my partner really struggle with is like any semblance of like will this matter in in five years like is is this actually as truly big a deal as it feels like today and I think often the answer would be it's probably not in my case so um this is interesting yeah Tara We liked Tara, liked that a lot from her.
00:21:34
Speaker
Okay, let's talk about why we think women need a board and what makes a good board.
Challenges for Women in the Workplace
00:21:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I mean, why women need one from my perspective is just very simple and maybe reductively simple, the statement. But it's like, we just face more challenges in the workplace.
00:21:51
Speaker
Just fact. There's just more to navigate. There's more bias. There's more uncertainty. You're paid less. next like therefore more challenge like more value from having people help you with what is just factually kind of more challenges systemic systemic challenges that face you what do you think why do women need one yes and i also as someone who's now on mat leave i think what i need from a board and the composition of that board
00:22:25
Speaker
is evolving and actually some people who um i probably would have had in my board, but in a sort of less involved capacity, I'm finding myself calling on, on mat leave to kind of help me not through like mat leave brain and mat leave and work and all of those kind of existential questions.
00:22:50
Speaker
from people who have been through it, because it is just a whole different set of challenges psychologically and physically and like, you know, hormonally. But also, you know, i from the conversation from Alice last year, she she spoke really beautifully about how she was just trying to find people who had already solved some of the very routine problems so that you you expand your data points and options on how you do things.
00:23:17
Speaker
So there's definitely my board has already changed because I'm on mat leave and I'm sure will change again. But it's because it is, as you say, this is a point in time set of circumstances where, as we know, the data shows careers can really take a ah brutal hit for women.
00:23:36
Speaker
in particular on parental leave. So it's it's kind of interesting going through that and holding that narrative in your head and then being like, I also don't want that to be me and I'm going to do everything I can for it not to be me. But also that's not really in my control sometimes, if not a lot of the time. So yeah, I think there are definitely unique situations in which women need to have very specific assistance that they wouldn't get otherwise. And and i also that it's, I think we've we've spoken about this a lot, but over-indexing on something that you feel um might be a bit challenging um and you're less maybe you're less likely to ask for help and actually over-indexing on asking for help and advice sometimes
00:24:24
Speaker
can be really good just to get an exposure and view, um range of viewpoints. But yeah, also too much advice is shit sometimes. So I think there's a tighter place for it. Yeah. and And then I think the final thing from my perspective on why women might benefit from this sort of structure a bit more is, is I, I do think women, is this a generalization?
00:24:47
Speaker
Anyway, if it is, you can call me up on it. But I think women like to talk about things. Women like to talk through important things. Or that's my experience of working with majority women and being one myself.
00:25:02
Speaker
Whereas I do think that that men sort of... it's it's a little bit more like, oh, if a if one plus one equals two, you have to find one plus one and then it equals two.
00:25:14
Speaker
And because things maybe there maybe are less challenges systemically for men, just think there's there's something about like women liking to process information decisions by like talking about them.
00:25:28
Speaker
o Yes. I mean, I really like again, i'm I'll stop talking about my baby at some point, but my we have a parents' group of like people who live locally to us and there's a mum and dad chat where everyone's in there and then there's been a mum splinter group and the mum splinter group is like extremely active yeah and the mum and dad group is like shall we Shall we go to the pub in three weeks?
00:25:54
Speaker
Okay. So as a very specific data point, um I would concur with that. Okay, let's talk about good boards and choosing and engaging your board. So who should be on it?
00:26:07
Speaker
I don't think I could answer who should be on it for an individual. So I think it is like really, really personalised who is on it If I were to think through who is on mine, like...
00:26:21
Speaker
like would say people who are ahead of you. Definitely very useful in in an avenue that you find relevant to your own career plan or your own current situation. I also think people where you like deeply respect, like something that you know that they have done or like a decision that they've made,
00:26:44
Speaker
Particularly if that specific decision is, again, very relevant to like what you're trying to work through. And then this is maybe a bit generic, but I also think like people with time to like be on it because I get sometimes asked, as I'm sure you do, to be a kind of mentor mentor.
00:27:05
Speaker
yeah, to be a mentor really and some way to a lot of people that I i barely know. And I just don't have time. And that's not like a twatty thing. So it's like, I'm, you know, i barely have time to speak to my best friends. So i think it is important that it is like a two way, someone that you think wants to be and has the time to be.
00:27:31
Speaker
someone on your board but it doesn't as as I think we've already covered but it doesn't have to be like formal you don't like have to ask them to be like on your board and give you this much time it doesn't have to be as like formal as that but I think overall like someone respecting the decisions of a person and and the relevance of those decisions someone like people who are a bit ahead of you or that you think are ahead of you in a relevant field and then people that have the time two to give you the advice in time that you need.
00:28:02
Speaker
Yeah, i I agree with all of that. I would also add like a slightly different lens of just like defining what it is for yourself that you feel like you need. I think that ah different board members for me have totally different functions. Like some are just basically to emotionally back me and give me a bit of like moral support, regardless of what I've done or what decision I make. Like there's like a cheerleading camp. I'd say that's like my mum and like some friends who ah will always be on my side um then there's like then then there's like a camp of like people who will help me pick through objectively what's going on and and help me navigate it and be really savvy about it and then there's like a camp of people who will think about me as a whole person rather than me as this job and be like you know
00:28:54
Speaker
You've got a young family. yeah Have you thought about how this might work? Or you seem really burnt out. I'm just doing a well-being check on you. So I think there are different there are different camps who provide completely different things. And again, I think I'm taking quite a wide definition of what the board is, but I would definitely agree with you from that kind of really professional bit in the middle people who see you see your strengths understand you understand the logic and your thinking and and and I do think you kind of have to express what your ambition is to your board you have to be able to articulate that to then know enable them to help you answer whatever question you're thinking about I don't I don't i don't necessarily think that just having someone and calling them and being like can we talk about me
00:29:45
Speaker
for a bit. Yeah. Generally, like, ah I do think you have to call on the board with a topic. Agreed. And the topic can either be something that's live and hot, which I'd say is, you know, I i treat our WhatsApp group like that.
00:30:01
Speaker
Yeah, me too. then But then like, i I also called on my board when I was thinking about starting my coaching training. And, you know, like there was an investment to that. And, and just like practically what's long gaming, you know, I had conversations with you about it And you're like, it's really good for optionality, not something that I had thought about. So i I think there's space for both those kind of reactive things. But also, whenever it is in your life that you do take those moments as take a step back and And I'm going to try and not sound like too much of like a nerdy life planner because that would be mischaracterizing what i do. But, you know, whenever, you know, might be at New Year's or maybe you do like your own quarterly review or half year review
Composition of Personal Advisory Boards
00:30:41
Speaker
or whatever. you when Whenever you're reflecting on those things, I kind of treat that as a moment to be like, what are the questions that I don't feel I can answer myself and who can help me answer them?
00:30:50
Speaker
Yeah. Yeah. I think you're definitely, for me, the holistic... You're obviously many things to me, but you are my person that's like, you have a life and it's not just your job. Like, don't be...
00:31:06
Speaker
Don't be insane. um So that's helpful. I would definitely say that for me, my mum is interesting. She's definitely on the board. My mum my mom is like, she's chair. Yeah, 100%. Chair of the board. But my mum is like quite, she's not just like, she is a cheerleader. She is my she is my cheerleader.
00:31:31
Speaker
But she's also just quite like, don't be stupid. ah in in only a way that your parent can say to you right and my mom is really funny because she's totally different on the she's on the career board for both me and my brother but she has just a completely different attitude towards both of us so with him she's always like are you sure it's a big step like you know can you do this whereas with me she's like you can literally do anything And I'm like, I wonder how?
00:32:04
Speaker
Because he has so much more, like he's achieving so much. He's doing so well. But also like he is kind of progressing up in a way that's quite quite linear. And so you would just think like, yeah, he can do it. Like hes he's doing the job, he's doing the work and then he's getting more opportunity.
00:32:20
Speaker
Whereas, yeah, it's just it's just funny. she's she's She's a chair of the board on both, but she just takes a very different approach. And then on my my partner is also... on my board but in like quite a formal way you like he like he takes it like a board role on a startup so that like completely doesn't surprise me he's he's corporate ken but like startup i don't know i don't know what the right word is we'll come up with something else but yeah he's always like he gives very very good advice i'm very lucky but he also gives like completely black and white
00:32:56
Speaker
like no is it's just and there's like no nuance there's no emotion there's nothing he's like that sounds wrong you must do this and I'm like you make it sound so easy but it ain't but it's good because um I think I do have like quite a well-rounded mix of like across the board they're all bringing their own little part I sort of know what that part will be but it fills all the areas that you said of like cheerleader, much more structured, maybe like expertise driven.
00:33:31
Speaker
And then the like almost coaching life person that's like, hold on, hold on. Yes, we're talking about your career, but like, are you okay? To which the answer with me is usually no, no i'm not okay. Anyway, what about you?
00:33:48
Speaker
Does that resonate with you? Do you have siblings, parents, partners? Are they part of your board? They're all part of the board. They all play their own sort of like pantomime role. Mum is my cheerleader. And, um you know, I'm so grateful to have had a childhood where mum just tells me she's proud of me for like everything. It's so it's just so sweet. She's so lovely. you know, my dad is a really hard nosed negotiator.
00:34:13
Speaker
So that's where you get it from. A hundred percent. There's never been a doubt about it. You know, my sister, she's seven years older than me and and she has a career in a family and she's already done that transition. I learned a lot from her and, you know, navigating childcare options and, you know, whether you go, whether you reduce your hours or you don't or those sorts of things. And in a kind of older sister way, which, you know, I'm really grateful for too. My partner is definitely on my board. He's just, I think he's there in a stopping self-limiting beliefs way so but i'd say cheerleader that that's that's not really him that's not his style no agreed again it's a bit like your mom like the don't be stupid but it's more like yeah of course you could do that why would you think that you couldn't just a kind of really understated like yeah understatement yeah but also the person who when i'm like getting upset about something
00:35:04
Speaker
he'll just be like, well, that person's just being crack. It's just ignore them in a way that like sometimes is really helpful. And then sometimes they get really irritated. Like, I think I told you we were on holiday. i was like irrationally irritated at our hotel neighbor because she was really.
00:35:19
Speaker
You did tell me this. Yeah. And I spent about three hours like wondering whether I should throw her shoes in the pond. And Tom was like, I think you need to drop it. And I was like, I don't know, Tom. I don't know.
00:35:31
Speaker
Sleep deprived. um I wouldn't cross you if you were if you were doing that. I'd be like, yeah, just put them Go on, if it makes you feel better. Yeah. I mean, I was like, oh, there's a bit of a thrill to it.
00:35:43
Speaker
um Anyway, because I'd say just probably keeps me regulated. Yeah. On a day to day level, which is very important. So let's say to our listeners, maybe they haven't um got a board.
00:35:55
Speaker
I actually think probably a lot of the listeners have a board. They just haven't referred to it as a board before. But, you know, a little council of people. Let's say they have someone they want to be on their board.
00:36:07
Speaker
How would you advise them going about it? I would say you don't have to make it like this very formal invitation. As you've said, most people don't even, yeah, most people don't even recognize that they have a board.
00:36:23
Speaker
So I think just think of it as like maybe seeking advice and depending on the relationship to that person, like if it were me and you, Obviously, I'd just be like, I need to talk to you about this.
00:36:35
Speaker
ah Would you be up for that? But if it was someone that I'd worked with in the past that was more senior than me, I would probably still keep it like quite informal, like I text or WhatsApp them or whatever. But I would be like, you know, do you have the time? i would massively appreciate your view on this. Here's here's a bit of context to like whitepe what I'm going through, why I've asked you and how like actually kind of how much time I'd like, and that sounds a bit, maybe a bit formal, like this is the problem. This is the yeah why I picked you. And this is the, I'd like half an hour, but it, it would be something like, Hey, I'm looking to progress to, to, into this role.
00:37:17
Speaker
I know you've had experience of that, but there's this specific challenge with my manager that I'd love to speak to you about because you've managed me before. And it would probably only take 15 or 20 minutes, but I just really appreciate your advice.
00:37:30
Speaker
And that would be a way. And if it's relevant to then like keep catching up, I think if it's someone that is like right for you, wants to be on your board, it's probably quite a natural progression to being like, hey, are things okay?
00:37:44
Speaker
Like after that initial conversation, and i don't think everything has to be really structured, really formalized, really planned, unless you want to take the more formal approach. board structure that we referred to at the start, in which case I think it's probably similar, but maybe you're saying like, I'd love to talk to you at a specific time.
00:38:03
Speaker
And like, you know, you basically put more of an agenda around this situation. discussion and more structure around the ask but I'd probably encourage people to keep it quite chill on the first approach because like people will keep talking to you and keep investing in you if they get something from it themselves whether that's like a feel-good factor or actually like they find and so the conversation interesting and useful to them and they learn something so I think my my advice would be to keep it pretty relaxed and then see how it evolves and
00:38:37
Speaker
i totally I totally agree with you he just Something that you said there reminded me that actually... I'd say so I have a lot of former line managers on my on my board to the extent that like a number of them are just friends who I really love now that enough time was lapsed between us working together. But I also loved working with them too. And I think line managers are such a good source of like, they've been through a whole period of time with you. They know how you think and operate. They know kind of the light you shine, the shadow you cast and and the things that worry and motivate you.
00:39:10
Speaker
i think they're a really deep source of, support. I agree with you on the time thing. ah think I try and have like a one-off conversation if I feel like I need a conversation. Like I remember a period of earlier in my career, and actually I think you need a board earlier in your career than then than perhaps you need us frequently later.
00:39:31
Speaker
when everything does seem a bit more confusing and you're still working out what you like and don't like. Calling one of my old bosses to talk about whether I should go into consultancy because she had been a consultant before. And, you know, like that that's, that's I think I had that conversation in like 20,
00:39:48
Speaker
17. And I've had coffee with her a couple of years ago. Like it's a really infrequent check-in, but it's normally quite intentional and making sure, I guess this is coming on to one of our later points, but we can talk about it now. Like I took a really long-term view on the relationships that I have. And, you know, there are people who are on my board who have been on there for like much longer than a decade, and who I feel like I can still call on, because we have built that relationship and established a connection that feels meaningful to us both. And in a way that I i always like to let them know that they I really admire and take inspiration from how they operate in XYZ.
00:40:30
Speaker
And and i I think that's such a rich learning, but it's also and it's quite flattering, isn't it? Totally, totally. It is flattering. And also, I think that most great managers do really invest in you as a human.
00:40:43
Speaker
And so it's just like a natural thing, isn't it? just and It's just a natural evolution of like when you leave a place, if it's been a really strong relationship, they they still want you to succeed and thrive.
00:40:55
Speaker
yeah I think that that's that is a really natural way to form like a chunky part of your board and I would say ah I would say the same like when I think about that wider board it's it's definitely there's a significant number of former line managers or people I worked with very closely on it what would be your your view on boundaries and long-term relationships just to round off round off our discussion questions about boards Well, I guess what I, as someone with not very good boundaries, what I would say is, I think the ideal is to nurture these relationships, but in a way that is sustainable for what you you can give. So I certainly am not amazing at sustaining very active relationships.
00:41:45
Speaker
And that's because I live my life at, and ah I think, a kind of exhausting pace. And it's definitely something I would like to change is kind of better maintenance of important relationships.
00:41:59
Speaker
But then I also think that people that know me really well, that would be part of my advisory board, know this about me. They just know that I will be like off trying to do some intense thing and that it's not, it's not intentional that I've like not checked in.
00:42:15
Speaker
But I think that it's good to make it c clear, like what you can give if possible. So especially if it's someone you know less well.
00:42:28
Speaker
So just being able to say, I'd love to check in with you in a few months, or like, it would be so helpful if we could maybe check in every six months. I think that is a really like lovely informal way to just state like the frequency that you're expecting of them, but also that you can give them.
00:42:45
Speaker
Yeah. I think that I've never, I've never mastered it myself. never, But I've been on the receiving end of people with very good boundaries asking for stuff like this. And I'm like, yeah, I can opt into that because it's clear what you expect from me. And I think that's quite good.
00:42:58
Speaker
Yeah, as someone that struggles overall with like having clear boundaries, I think I'm probably not as good at this as I would like to be. But I would try and just be deliberate about it. And if you can just think, ah okay, with this person who is important, what what do I want from them next?
00:43:17
Speaker
When? And is it appropriate to kind of say that explicitly? Yeah. Which it won't always be because sometimes it can be super informal. Yeah. I also think like ah I used to work for a diplomat and the way that she handles this, I really like, which was basically.
00:43:34
Speaker
it's It's a very like government way of handling a timeline, which is basically naming the season in which you want to catch up. So just being like, yeah, be great to see you. Let's get something in for autumn.
00:43:46
Speaker
And that allows a bit of flexibility closer to the time to just like test. when works and actually if i'm asking for your help in autumn like it's maybe more helpful in like this milestone that happens in october than it is than it is a different time so it gives a bit of flexibility on both sides which i find quite a natural nice way of expectation management on frequency i think that's really nice yeah this conversation has made me realize that i don't really have any sponsors on my board.
00:44:16
Speaker
And I think sponsorship is kind of interesting. So for the listeners who don't know, sponsors sort of differ to a mentor in that they're both typically more experienced or more senior, not necessarily for mentors, but the sponsor is someone who's basically sort of looking out for you tends to be in the same organization, but could be in the same industry, someone who's happy to sort of pull a few strings to to help you get ahead and so on.
00:44:40
Speaker
Sponsors aren't something that like i necessarily, I don't know that I have sponsors, or if I have sponsors, they're really quiet at pulling the strings, which I'm really grateful for. i had someone when I quit, I won't say who, the CEO of an organization say, you had the CEO as your sponsor. And I was like,
00:44:57
Speaker
didn't fucking tell me. He was like, how am I? Like, how do I know?
00:45:03
Speaker
um So to recap on this week's episode, we started off by covering what
How to Create and Maintain Advisory Boards?
00:45:11
Speaker
advisory board is. No, we didn't make up the term. And we talked through some of the expert perspectives on having a career advisory board. And then we go into how to ask people to be on your advisory board, how to balance your advisory board, who should be on it, and also how frequently to keep in touch with your advisors and maintain relationships with them. Lastly, we talk through who's on our advisory board and why, as well as what we truly think the value of them is.
00:45:40
Speaker
What's your top tip, Annie? My top tip is don't create work for yourself. An advisory board should feel natural, sustainable, and think about the input that each member of your advisory board gives you.
00:45:55
Speaker
What is their angle for you? And what do you expect? Like, what what are you needing to get from them? What about you? I think my top tip would be making sure that your inner mentor is on your board.
00:46:10
Speaker
I do think there's there's a lot to be said for finding out an answer for yourself that can feel slightly more congruent than an answer compiled from 12 different answers of others.
00:46:22
Speaker
So i think also trusting yourself as ah as a member of the board is really important. i think that's it. Perfect. So thanks for joining us today, as always. um If something in today's episode resonated with you, please spread the magic. Share it with a friend, post on your socials, leave a rating or review on the platform you listen to us on.
00:46:45
Speaker
That's how the career coven grows. And we would really appreciate your support. So until next time, ya. Bye. Bye.