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S2, E3 The Career Coven: Being Interviewed
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This week on the Career Coven, we talk about the process of being interviewed for a new job. It covers how to make a good first impression, how to develop a narrative around your own skills and whether or not to have notes in front of you during an interview. Bec shares her best and worst of interviews, and how she finds it easier to interview for jobs where your own experience is directly relevant. Annie share how candidates should also leave an interview with some value - it shouldn’t just feel like a one sided interrogation.
Our interviewing tips include:
- Trying to say something interesting in the first interview, not just perfectly articulating your CV
- Make sure the role is clear, or push for clarity on it
- Keeping things quite conversational can help it to feel less nerve-racking
- Trying to have more than one example of your key strengths, so you’re not just talking about the same examples over and over when interviewing (boring for you)
- Dress appropriately - even if it’s online
- Listen actively to the interviewer, and don’t just try to fit ‘your examples’ into the questions being asked
Enjoying this content? Please rate and subscribe on your preferred platform, and let us know what you think! hello@careercoven.com
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Transcript
Introduction and Focus on Job Interviewing Tips
00:00:06
Speaker
Hello. Hello. I'm back. And I'm Annie. And you're listening to The Career Coven. This week's episode is about interviewing for a new job. Now, I am going to be asking Annie more questions than Annie's going to be asking me because she has most recently been interviewing, though I have done a few int interviews myself.
Making a Great First Impression
00:00:29
Speaker
So Annie is the more recent expert of the market expectations around this.
00:00:35
Speaker
um Annie, shall we start with how to how you think you'd make a great first impression in interviews? And when I say that, I mean, let's cover off and in person online. Yeah.
00:00:49
Speaker
um Okay, so I think when you, when you can, it's always best to start with like, I think quite a conversational opener, you know, at the end of the day, especially on video calls, you just want it to be an interesting first chat. I think that's the the aim of the first call is for it to be interesting not for it to be like the perfect articulation of your CV you want to say something memorable you want the person interviewing you to enjoy it and i think that that means that like the best first interviews
00:01:27
Speaker
you feel or you come across as like fairly relaxed, you've got things to say that aren't just routine, however you are well rehearsed in like how you get your key skills across in a way that doesn't seem like too jarring and too salesy but like does fit the flow of like quite a conversational tone.
00:01:48
Speaker
So like, you know, as I say, I realized like, that's really hard, it definitely is really hard to get that balance right. But um I do think the best first interviews are when you feel like mutually both sides of kind of ask them interesting questions, said some interesting things, and you've got you've managed to get into the conversation, weave into the conversation at least three or four really key skills that you have and times that you have like demonstrated an outcome using those skills.
Discussing Key Skills and Structuring Narratives
00:02:19
Speaker
um So it is a balance of kind of keeping it, you know, not really, really formal and not really scary for you or for them. um But also
00:02:34
Speaker
getting those skills across. How do you go about forming that narrative on your skills? Like, do you have a process for that or is it just something that you've worked on for decades for like a decade and you just know it like the back of your hand? Like, what advice would you have to people who don't necessarily have that narrative? Yeah, so I actually find this really, really hard. I hate talking about myself. And so I have had to work on structuring those examples and being quite clear on what I think my key strengths are and for me because I process information writing things down that did mean like actually writing it down before I started any of these inter interview processes writing down the examples that I thought demonstrated
00:03:17
Speaker
at best trying to have like more more than one example for each key skill so that you don't always feel like you're talking about the one time you moved this from this like that can get a bit boring for you um and often you'll meet people more than once in a process and you don't want to just keep rolling off the same examples.
00:03:36
Speaker
But yeah I had to like reflect quite heavily on what those key skills were and the inputs for that reflection were like feedback I'd had from other people and then the things I felt that I enjoyed and the things that I felt I had like significant achievements in and it's like a mixture of those things that led to this document that I made which was like here are the things that I feel really comfortable saying I'm good at, um which isn't something that for me is a very comfortable thing. Like I do not like talking about myself. I do not like talking about my strengths. It isn't like the place that I'm going to be the most relaxed, but I have taught myself, especially I think over the last year, like this round of interviews to be much better at. um
00:04:25
Speaker
because I felt like for a while I wasn't very good at interviews and I was just selling myself short. So this time I've tried to put a lot more structure and thought into it. um And there are ways that There are ways that you can use those inputs, for example, by starting a sentence saying, I've actually had feedback that this is a really good thing that I can do, that make it easier than you just saying, oh, I'm really good at X, um which sometimes doesn't feel super comfortable.
Appearance and Presentation in Interviews
00:04:57
Speaker
um i would I would add to to the first impression pile. um I recall this being something that happened when I was an interviewer. and an interviewee virtually he was wearing a nice kind of suit and and jacket and tie. And I said, oh, you know, you're looking whatever professional today. Thank you for coming and making an effort. And then he stood up and said, I'm not wearing trousers. So that can go in the Hall of Fame of worst interviews I've ever done. um But yeah it makes a good like makes a good point about how you appear in the interview, I think.
00:05:38
Speaker
and yeah and actually looking looking professional is actually really important. I agree. Yeah, um both in-person and online. it's It does matter. And you know we can all wish we lived in a world where it didn't matter, but it just it does it does matter. It matters a lot. So definitely look look presentable, look tidy, um try and I would say wear things that you're comfortable in, but that are presentable. So don't like you don't have to wear suits as a woman to most job interviews now, but you might want to consider throwing a jacket on top of you know a pair of black jeans and that can still look
00:06:18
Speaker
much you know very professional and very smart um but yeah it does it does matter it does matter. A big fan of a blazer when you need to feel slightly more professional than he would otherwise feel like also dressing for dressing for dressing for your mood I think is also always I think for me something that worked really well um I also wonder uh one of the challenges that I think I have faced previously with interview rounds, um particularly in the pandemic where we weren't really sure like what is and isn't okay in a virtual interview was how many notes and stuff that you rely on in front of you that the person
00:07:03
Speaker
is interviewing you you can't necessarily see. um and And I think I urge probably too much on the side of preparing too much. and just um What's your view on prep and practice? So I would never have notes in front of me in the actual interview. um That is just a focus thing for me, like,
00:07:28
Speaker
i would I think I would find it hard to really hold someone's attention and make them feel that I was like actively participating when I have notes open. um However, I definitely would say that I was well practiced. I do go through things in my head, especially if it's an in-person interview when I'm walking there. you know there are questions that you often get asked like what's you know what challenges have you faced and like having those kind of well well articulated in the front of your mind so that those things are kind of easy wins that you can just bank I think is really useful so yeah I personally wouldn't have
00:08:10
Speaker
notes on a screen on a virtual interview. But for some people, I can, you know, as the interviewer, I've been able to tell that they do have them and and and it's still been fine. So I think there is a bit of like, it depends how nervous you are. um And it depends how much that help helps you, but I think it can interrupt the flow. In person, I do actually always have a notebook, I always write down pretty much the highlight reel of the conversation so I have a record. I will in that notebook usually have the scribbles and the thoughts and the questions that I
00:08:44
Speaker
want to ask. um Sometimes I don't open it, but I definitely know it's it's there. um And I like it. I like it in person when people have a notebook, there's something about, you know, people jotting things down that makes me think, oh, they're thinking about this, or they're taking it seriously, or they're going to go and like, look this up, or, um or they're trying to remember this conversation for the next round, all stuff, I think are really important. So like,
00:09:12
Speaker
If you're not writing things down in person, make sure you write notes as soon as the person leaves because if they've told you stuff about the business in that first interview, money, metrics, strengths, weaknesses, skills they need, they expect you to remember what they've said for your next round. So
Balancing Answer Lengths and Communication Skills
00:09:30
Speaker
yeah, if you're not writing notes during the interview, definitely, definitely write them for five minutes after you hang up or or leave so that you've got a fresh record of of what was said.
00:09:42
Speaker
I don't know how anyone does just general work without a notebook. I find it quite fascinating um as a general approach, but that's an aside. What would be your red or green flags about the length of an answer? Ooh, as an interviewer or as the interviewee? As an interviewer. So so you're interviewing me, you ask me, what is my greatest weakness? And I say, I'm a perfectionist, classic.
00:10:12
Speaker
Yeah, I have to admit, I switch off for most people that say that. But um ah I think really short answers and really long answers probably both do you give me kind of amber flags.
00:10:28
Speaker
um I think if your weakness is you're a perfectionist and you really know it, just having like two more sentences to explain how that manifests in the workplace and how you manage that, I think is is good. um If you've got a half an hour first interview, which many many people do,
00:10:45
Speaker
If you take 10 minutes answering the weaknesses question, you've only got 20 minutes to do your questions and the rest of all the skills that you need to cover off in that first interview. So if you can't manage your time well enough to know that thats you've just made your life very difficult, I'm probably not like, I'm not crossing you off the list if everything you say is really brilliant. But I am thinking like, this is going on a bit. My take on it when I'm interviewing is that if If an answer is too long, I think that actually probably indicates that that person is not a particularly excellent communicator.
00:11:24
Speaker
Um, and communication is just the bedrock of success in every job. So it's, for me, it's really important in the work that I do and the teams that I hire that people are able to express themselves succinctly and they have something good to say in as few words as possible. Um, which is ironic now that we're on a podcast and I'm chatting a lot of shit, but, so um, you what I think it's important to show that you're good at communication in an interview and a really long answer. It doesn't. I think also a really short answer probably just means they're not taking it that seriously. Or quite flippant about it. um or Or just like haven't really listened, I suppose, which is another end of the spectrum that you don't really want to be on. Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would agree with that.
00:12:20
Speaker
what What are some of the best and worst interviews you've had? um I think the best interviews that I have is when people can really demonstrate an evidence that they have direct experience in what I'm hiring for. I think the people will have really done their research beyond just reading the job description to tailor their responses to what they think I want to hear. and um So like none of this, like, um tell me about the time when you delivered through others and and then they'll answer something that's like totally irrelevant. um i would I would say that those those tend to be best
00:13:09
Speaker
Also, I think there's just a lot to be said about people who have a calm demeanor in an interview. I find that really compelling in a candidate. um yeah ah So I think whatever whatever you need to do to make yourself appear calm, um if you're not feeling calm, it's totally normal to not feel calm. But just to feel self-assured and come across that way, um those are the candidates that I typically look for.
00:13:35
Speaker
Yeah, I think calm calm and self-assured is ah definitely two things to aim for, for sure. You don't want to come across as arrogant. You just want to come across as like calm and able to talk about the things that you have done with clarity and with relevance to the questions that you're being asked. And actually, that is something that I think I have managed to get a lot better at kind of in the last two years is I do treat like most
Understanding Job Fit and Role Clarity
00:14:10
Speaker
most interviews, just like conversations. And I'm sure it doesn't i'm sure it's not for everyone. like i'm i'm sure that um And I would also say that I haven't been in in situations where I've got super high pressure to get a job. you know I haven't been like unemployed and like really under the cost to get this over the line, which does probably influence how relaxed I can be. But yeah, I try and treat most people interviewing me just like someone I'm having a conversation with and it makes me less nervous. But I think it also comes across as someone that has like, you know, quite a high level of um of clarity and confidence without being arrogant. Yeah, I think the best interviews that I have ever done as an interviewee
00:15:01
Speaker
are the ones where genuinely I have the most natural fit for the role that I am interviewing for and the answers seem really obvious to me and the questions feel really natural. It's the question the questions for jobs where I'm i'm not 100% confident that I know that I can do it.
00:15:23
Speaker
where I tend to revert to answers that are like maybe slightly formulaic or I've thought about the answers so hard and tried to fit an example backwards into a question that doesn't quite work. um i I feel like for me, there's a really big distinction between my performance in a role that I'm genuinely a good fit for versus one I am trying to make work. And that's probably a bit about my mindset going in, I guess.
00:15:52
Speaker
Yeah, yeah, I think, um you know, it's definitely the other side of that would be it's definitely a good sign if you feel like you can answer the questions you're asked really well. I mean, like 100%. That is a good sign that like, you've got experience that is relevant, like they that the match is relatively good on skills. I would also say I think something really important in a good first interview is that you as a candidate get out of it something that you need. It shouldn't all just be one directional, this is what I've done, this is why I'm applying, like you should get at least some of the answers to some of your important questions in this first interview. Otherwise it can feel very
00:16:32
Speaker
you know, for anyone, very formulaic, very boring, if you're just arent ah answering a set of what are very fixed questions. And often, right, there are very fixed questions that they're trying to get you to cover in this period of time. But some people, you know, better interviewers just don't make it sound like that, because they give you little tidbits or they respond to what you say and say things like oh okay that's interesting it's how that's how that works where you are now how it works here is x y z um but yeah i think the worst interviews on the other hand are like you just get asked questions from a list no one responds to anything you say
00:17:14
Speaker
even when I've definitely had a few things when I've even been like, quite vulnerable, or I've said something about myself, and I just get like, okay, tell me about a time when you've demonstrated x, like straight after, like I'm talking to an actual machine. um So I think those ones are really, really hard, and they're hard to get your flow into, because you're not getting that social cue of like, Oh, that was a good answer. Oh, that's interesting. Because someone is just kind of blank screening, you know, you they're just they're all poker face. I think those are really, really difficult. And I think I would add that in from in my experience in organizations that interview like that, there's typically a really, really tight scoring matrix and rubric that they're looking for.
00:18:05
Speaker
and like very particular ways of answering questions and and you know the the strictness of the question might be in relation to like you're not allowed to ask follow-ups because that might advantage one Canada or another so like in the civil service there's a very very very strict pattern of like your interview approach and they're like asking a question but they're secretly looking for demonstration of like this particular behavior and in order to get a top score in this particular behavior you need to use
00:18:35
Speaker
like this specific phrase or whatever, which is obviously a fucking insane way to hire because unless you have memorized the matrix, you're you're not going to succeed, which just seems completely the wrong way about hiring talent. But um certainly with more relaxed organizations, that is a more enjoyable interview experience, I think.
00:18:59
Speaker
Yeah, 100%. And that probably reflects that like, I don't think I would manage to get a job in the civil society. But like, yeah, you know, yeah I often feel for those people, ah where I've had it is sometimes when your screening call is with HR, and you know, they've probably done 15 interviews that day, and they've got to get to five for the next round. You're the end of the day, and you can feel it.
00:19:23
Speaker
And I think like that person is a nice person, you're just doing your job, you've asked 10 people these same questions. And you're not giving me anything back. And that's okay. But also as a candidate, that doesn't that doesn't leave me like excited about the job, it leaves me like, Oh, okay, right. Like, I'm probably, I'm probably gonna have to wait to get excited about this till till the next one. Whereas obviously, the ideal in a good first interview is that you leave like,
00:19:51
Speaker
really excited and I've had a couple of those um recently and usually it's it's a mix of what you said which is like oh my god I'm a great candidate but exactly what you're looking for and you like learn it on the call you know someone said to me I'm looking for a great generalist, I'm looking for another senior generalist who can help me lead this company. And I was like, yes, because everyone who wants a like specialist ops person, that's what the role was. I'm not a specialist. So I'm like, I know I'm not, I wouldn't even pretend I was. But I know that I'm a very, very strong generalist. And I can demonstrate that really well. And this person just casually said it in the first kind of five minutes, like if he was describing what he wanted it was this and I was like yeah I'm that and then he could see that I was excited and I talked about how I could be that and then he actually did have very structured first questions but he like wove them into our quite animated conversation that we had together and I left that call like he's great that's a really good fit for me what an exciting job like I felt really good um
00:21:06
Speaker
also not the job I'm doing. But, um but yeah, I've had a few of them where I feel really excited. um On the kind of worst side of things, I think as well as like not getting anything as as the candidate and being asked like, quite formulate questions, I do think there is occasionally times when you just consent really early that you're like, I don't like the word like culture fit, but like that you're not a personality fit, or you're not going to have like an easy conversation with the person you're talking to. I think those ones can be really hard. um And often will probably leave you feeling quite depleted of energy at the end of it. um And I guess as the as the candidate, I would like to say, think about whether that was just like,
00:21:53
Speaker
one person that you, you know, maybe, maybe might not work with didn't get along with or actually whether you think that is a signal of something kind of bigger within the organization that wouldn't align to your values. And if it's the latter, probably don't waste like too much more time on experiences like that. um but Yeah, I mean, I, it's a really interesting point. Like, as an interviewer, um I normally have a pretty ah good idea about whether I am interested in a candidate or not, at least within the first five minutes. And it's, I have to say, it's also difficult as an interviewer to keep finishing the interview when you know that like this person isn't right. And it might be that like, actually, what we thought their experience was isn't relevant or
00:22:46
Speaker
They've just said something that's so off the mark and and and like, ah or just a bit strange or whatever. um ah The dynamic has gone totally left.
00:22:58
Speaker
ah but when I'm interviewing, I will normally try and get through the rest of the quick questions as quickly as I can. Because yeah I know that the answer is no, but I still want to give them the benefit of the doubt to be able to answer them. But I think if you knew if you're interviewing and you see people start to disengage, that's probably your cue. Because I think as an as an interviewer, you can gauge also really quickly, like,
00:23:26
Speaker
the level of enthusiasm and engagement of the person you're interviewing as well. um And like as you say, you can see when people are genuinely excited or thoughtful or reflective versus when they're just trying to get it over and done with, which is actually not a great impression, I'd say.
00:23:44
Speaker
Agreed, agreed. Yeah, you can you can definitely sense it both, both ways for sure. um Before we move on, the other kind of two things I think are kind of of watch out maybe three on the worst side of things is I've had some pretty bad experiences where I've been like introduced to a company and it's not clear like what role I'm interviewing for.
Spotting Red Flags in Startups
00:24:10
Speaker
It's just like, oh, here she is. Why don't you meet her? And then I'm actually meeting someone that really doesn't want me or someone like me there. And so you've had like one really good interview and then you have one really confusing interview where people are like, well, what's the role? Like what are kind of expecting you to be able to articulate like what you're going to do. And I think that's,
00:24:33
Speaker
um I think that that can be overcome, but like I do think that's a bit of a red flag if like they don't if people aren't aligned in the organization and or they cannot clearly articulate the role that you are here for and or multiple people you meet do not agree on what that role looks like. um That's not uncommon in startups, but I think like um it's a choice to kind of push through that and I think you have to push really hard to get to something really clear if that's the way you start.
00:25:02
Speaker
um And then I also think that if you're interviewing for like small kind of founder led businesses like and you're speaking to the founder in the first round definitely like watch out for.
00:25:14
Speaker
things that sound like almost too good to be true. You know, these people are like expert pitchers and they can make their organizations sound like heaven. um But in my experience, the truly good places to work are where the founders will be incredibly honest within the first like five or 10 minutes and be like, we're really great at this. We're not really good at this. That's what we need some help in. Our culture is like this. It's not like this. And they're just really honest about like,
00:25:43
Speaker
the good and the bad things, which are in every organisation, right? But I think if you're an inexperienced interviewer, if everything sounds like too good to be true levels of perfect, that for me is a red flag. It's like you haven't got to the honesty.
00:25:59
Speaker
Whereas if someone is like really, really honest, then I'm like, okay, I can make a real choice. If this person is telling me we're really good at um marketing, but our product is rubbish, like at least they're telling me we've got a really basic product. You know, it's really, it's way less advanced than you would think. um And I can then make a choice. Okay, do I want to go to somewhere that has like skeleton product, but like an amazing marketing team?
00:26:26
Speaker
but if people aren't telling you the truth then I think that can just be really really hard because nowhere's perfect you know. Yeah I think also I would add in the sort of maybe things to avoid bucket is I think you probably should always ask a question at the end there's always time for questions at the end And when people don't ask a question, I'm like, do you even want to be here? Like, have you imagined yourself in this job and then thought, here here are the gaps that I don't know. Cause like, I don't think you have, if you haven't asked a question. And like my questions, normally culture is super important for me in a workplace. And my questions will always be like.
00:27:10
Speaker
Um, can you tell me about the culture? Could you tell me about, um, you know, what are the hours like? What's Flexi working like? Like how would, how would other teams describe your team? And, you know, if I asked to leave her, how would they describe it? And those kinds of things, like if you, if you come with no questions, it looks like you're not really invested. Yeah. The only, the only thing I have had is where like, like throughout, let's say an hour long or an hour and a half long first interview.
00:27:40
Speaker
they have answered. yeah They have answered all of my questions. So then if I genuinely don't have a question, what I tend to say is I have the following questions.
00:27:52
Speaker
insert three questions, but I think you've actually answered all of them. So I'm sure I'll have more, but like, I think we've covered them all off in this round. So at least you show like, actually, no, I did come to this with questions. We've had this really long conversation. All of my questions have been addressed. I'm sure I'll have more questions the next time.
Managing Pre-Interview Jitters
00:28:10
Speaker
um I think that's quite a handy like interview tip that one. um Yeah. Okay, so I think what's really common with everyone everyone, maybe minus you, is that people get really nervous before interviews. So what advice do you have with someone with pre-interview jitters? Yeah, don't drink too much coffee. And that's like, ha no, it's like real, do not drink too much coffee. That is like a very, very bad idea. You can always tell when you're interviewing someone that's like really shaking. You're just like, yeah, so avoid that.
00:28:51
Speaker
um i think like I mean, I do get a bit nervous. I'm just not usually nervous in the room. So I do get nervous before. What I try and do is like I try and make sure that I have got up early, like read all my notes, like written everything down that i'm that's in my head, and like I've had just a bit of like me time before the interview. Because sometimes, you know if you're doing it alongside a job, you're like dropping in and out. It can be hard to do that. So I want to feel like really prepared at the start of the day.
00:29:21
Speaker
um you know me I will do some exercise to like get any nerves out of the system and to just stop myself thinking about just this interview um and yeah if I'm really worried I would talk I would try and talk to someone maybe I talk to you, or maybe I like tax my partner or something for a bit of reassurance. But um I think the like physical things I do are like that prep time, like properly focused, am I ready? Yes, I am. And sort of some exercise to get the jitters out of my system. And yeah, then I try and say, you know, only one, one coffee, limited amount of coffee, so I don't get really kind of all over the place. What about you?
00:30:11
Speaker
you I think for me, my like nervousness manifests in over-preparing and I think I perform worse if I over-prepare. So I think for me, it's almost kind of the opposite to you, um which is like, I will have done my prep a lot before and actually the night before it's about just like getting a good night's sleep. And like, I was never a crammer before exams. I'm not a crammer person, but
00:30:42
Speaker
um you know, actually consciously downing tools on thinking about it beforehand. um And then I think, um I think, I think I said this in the first season, but um and in a period of my career, when I was applying for um a promotion within the civil service in that horrible matrix of job appointments,
00:31:05
Speaker
um and my coach had just said, it only takes, it only takes one yes, and actually just a bit of a kind of self-talk check before you go into the interview about making sure that you don't already limit your performance by limiting what you think will happen about it. um The job that I got at the BBC was um I'd sort of gone on a spree of applying for things. And I don't know if you've ever done this, but if you ever apply for like too many jobs, you're like, wait, what is this job that I've applied for? I'm not really sure. um And actually, I think andp like feeling underprepared made me so much better on the day. So um for me for me, it's almost the opposite than for you, um which is just to look back out, basically.
Handling Free Work in Interviews
00:32:00
Speaker
Okay. Should we go to some questions, some lists of questions? Yes. How many interview rounds with presentations, et cetera, are just free work?
00:32:14
Speaker
Oh, yeah, I think there's a lot of this going on. I think there's a lot of like chat about this going around because the market is quite bad and not lots of people are interviewing but not getting the role. I mean, overall, I think like two case studies like maximum per job, like max, max, max, if you're being asked to do more than two bits of significant work for a role, unless it's like maybe a CEO role, like, um,
00:32:44
Speaker
I would be quite, I would just be a bit wary of like, what's what's going on. You know, it takes, it's also work for the company to put loads of people through presentation rounds. So I do think that like, there isn't this like great free work conspiracy happening. I don't think like people don't just put up job interviews to crowdsource free work, because it's so much more time.
00:33:09
Speaker
to sift through those first rounds to get to people to that stage. So like, you know, it's just work, it's hours and hours of work. So I think it's a bit of a, I think it's a bit of like misinformation to think that companies and organizations are kind of routinely sourcing, scouring the market for free work that they can kind of use with no intention of giving people the job. um So I would maybe encourage people to sort of get that out of their system. Like if you don't really want a job, don't do the task. Like don't waste your time. You know, if you're not interested in it at all, like why why do it? um It should, most of the case studies I've had
00:33:51
Speaker
recently have been really useful exercises for me to understand the role I'm actually going to do. And that has been beneficial to me, and then it has been beneficial to the company. And that is for me, the mark of like a good case study, you feel a bit more like, Oh, this is what I'm going to be doing day to day. And this is how it suits my skills or not. um They can assess this is what this person is actually going to do. And this is how quickly I think they could pick this stuff up. So they should be mutually really useful. um I haven't Yeah, I haven't been asked to do more than one case study in an interview ever, including four C-suite roles, not in huge organizations, but like, um so if if you're getting to like, yeah, above two, I would say, oh, that's like unusual and have you been given a justification for like this level of work? um in some In some roles, particularly in design, um it's becoming more common to pay
00:34:50
Speaker
for the tasks. Because if you're asking someone to do, you know, 10 product screens for a flow, um that might take them a significant amount of time if they're working as a freelancer, those skills skip like that time is is money. And um so there is ah there are in some disciplines, a bit of a like,
00:35:12
Speaker
we're not wasting your time and we'll show it by paying you like a nominal fee for the hours you spend on it. But they usually then cap the hours on the task. um So yeah, I'd say only do tasks when you want to do them. They should be mutually useful. One is very, very common. If not one is like good practice. I would say I would have a bit of a red flag if I had no tasks. I would be like, hold on.
00:35:38
Speaker
What? I think like almost every interview I've done in the last four or five years has asked a version of the same question, which is like, what would your kind of strategic vision be coming into this role for like, what, what you would deliver? Like, it it's usually not much more complicated than that. I think that you can expect. I have done interviews where the case study feels a bit like free work. um And those have, that they've been in different media organizations. One was a startup and one
00:36:17
Speaker
one was a large company, both of those roles went to internal candidates. And I have to say, I felt really quite salty after it because I was like, that was a fucking good, that was a fucking good presentation. And maybe that's on me to spend less time on it. It felt like I had, if I were a freelancer, I would charge at least a day for the work that I had done.
00:36:40
Speaker
Yeah, so I cap my own hours on presentation. So if someone sends me a task and they don't tell me how long they want it to take, I will generally reply saying, I will do this in four hours. I will do four hours. I will do four hours of work on this because you're never going to get my like two weeks of work because I'm not going to do that.
00:36:58
Speaker
They need to know this is the amount of time I've put into this particular question, so you can assess me based on four hours of work. But like because it's so common to get asked for uncapped tasks, my tactic has just been to say, I'm going to cap it at this. Is that fine?
00:37:20
Speaker
And I think that that hasn't always gone down well, but it is also a reflection ah of it is a reflection of my operating style, which is like I am going to get 80% of the way quite quickly and then I may not spend much time on the rest of the 20% unless I think it's really, really valuable.
Overcoming Second Place in Interviews
00:37:42
Speaker
And for me, these most of these questions are definitely 80% questions. They want to see your thinking to get to that 80%. Very rarely do they want to see the final 20 because you're not going to get there in a day or half a day or an hour or whatever.
00:37:58
Speaker
So yeah, I would say tread that line carefully. It hasn't always landed like well, but I, I put my own time box around these tasks because I'm not going to infinitely do a strategic plan for a company. I'm not, I'm not going to do that for free. Um, I will do the things that pertain to this role to the best of my ability and a cap number of hours because I'm a busy person. Love that. Next question. I am a consistent silver medalist in interviews. What is going wrong for me? Oh, I feel sad.
00:38:29
Speaker
Yeah, we've talked about this before, you know there's often really amazing silver medalists and um it's it's not something to be ashamed of, but it's very frustrating if you're looking to move. um I think my answer to this, if you think that you are, or you know that you are like one of two, I would try and have a really direct conversation about why they will or won't hire you.
00:38:56
Speaker
and It's kind of like a sales negotiation, like conversation. You know, if you're asking so a buyer, you know, what do you need to get this over the line? What do you need to make this decision today? What would have to be true for that? Like have that kind of conversation about you. So what are the questions that you still have about me? What can I say to put your mind at ease for those questions? And I did this recently.
00:39:25
Speaker
um And I didn't get the job, right? But I think I asked such a direct question. And the thing they didn't, the thing they didn't like about me was that I've never worked in a high growth, large organization. I've only worked in small high growth organizations or large low growth organizations. And that is not something I can change.
00:39:48
Speaker
So yeah when I said, what's the question what's the one question you have about me and what what can I do to change your mind? They said, it's this. And I said, well, I'm not going to lie to you. I haven't. And then I didn't get the job. And that was the reason. And I was really surprised because I had definitely thought I was going to get that job.
00:40:08
Speaker
But that is what they wanted and I don't regret asking that question because if that was really important to them to have seen it before and done it before and someone that could just use a cookie cutter approach of what they've done before in in a role.
00:40:24
Speaker
I didn't have that. And I wasn't going to come with that. um So it can backfire. But yeah, I would try and have a really honest, direct conversation about what do you need to say yes to me. Every time someone has done that to me, I have found that very impressive, very like bold, taking control of the conversation. And I have liked to like,
00:40:45
Speaker
head on, I'm going to put you on the spot, like tell me because sometimes the things they'll say is like, you know, I'm just not sure that you have the influencing skills to work in a matrix organization. And then you can give them eight examples of the fact that you can do that. and So that would be my thing. What about you? And I mean, I have the same thing I normally just ask, um is there anything that you're looking for that you haven't um, seem demonstrated in my answers so far that I can elaborate on. Same thing. Um, I would also just say like, it's entirely plausible. There is nothing wrong with you as a silver medalist. Um, like I have been through a lot of interview processes myself and like, it shouldn't be like this, but unfortunately it is.
00:41:32
Speaker
sometimes interview processes are just a tick box exercise to give someone an internal promotion. Like, see, I see, I've seen it in so many different organizations, like, there's already a preferred candidate before the job ad is written. And, and, you know, as part of the exercise, they will need to interview someone else, and that someone else might be you. And that's happened to me loads of times, and it's really fucking annoying when it happens. But There is nothing wrong with you in that scenario.
Tips for Nervous Candidates
00:42:01
Speaker
Unfortunately, you're just playing out as like the extra person. So I would just say that it's entirely plausible. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you. So, um, don't, don't let, don't let being a silver medalist, um, get you down because there are very good people have all been silver medalists before. Agree. One last question. So I am a very nervous interviewee and often lose my train of thought. How can I stay on track?
00:42:27
Speaker
I think try and do the things that we've discussed or whatever works for you to reduce your nerves. So try and like manage, I guess, the root cause. I think if you really struggle to say to stay on track, you should try saying less.
00:42:45
Speaker
um being more concise, being more concise in your answers. I think where it gets really hard is where you've got, you know, a you've got a Chati Kathy and, and you, it's going off track, but they just keep going. And I hate these interviews.
00:43:05
Speaker
those are really, really hard. I've had a lot of those and you try and sort of get them back but they're like, oh, let me just finish my train of thought. Let me just finish my train of thought. So I do think practicing kind of trying to be a little bit more brief is good. Yeah, and practicing out loud as well, not just in my head. Say the words out loud and time yourself. I would also say that like, I've been in the interviewer when someone is like really clearly very nervous and they're just basically just had like a bit of a moment and while they're answering the question. I am completely fine if someone either asks the question again just to clarify or says like I actually need to just take a second to pause and and and breathe for a second or like regroup. um I think' think it's better to stop your answer and like
00:44:04
Speaker
right like gather yourself again and before you continue or you restart I think that to me looks a lot better than just blah blah blaring a bunch of bullshit because if you start blah blah blaring a bunch of bullshit I'm just stop listening. Agreed and I definitely have also had some really good interviews from people who are able to say um at the start of the meeting, I'm really nervous. I just wanted to let you know that I'm feeling really nervous. I hope it won't come across, but I just get quite nervous about these things and I wanted to let you know that's fine. I'm like, okay, cool.
00:44:42
Speaker
They've got it out. They've explained that they're really nervous. I understand that they might not be like the best version, but that they're trying. And I think it's always quite impressive if someone has the like self-awareness to actually communicate how they're feeling proactively. That for me is like a big green tick. I've also had people say,
00:45:02
Speaker
I have ADHD or similar or another condition. And just so you know, that means in interviews, I can sometimes be a little get to the answer in a way that's a little sideways, but I do you always get there, bear with me. And I've had some really good interviews like that have started like that, where they say, look, I don't necessarily like think in a straight line, but I do you know i do get there.
00:45:28
Speaker
And again, I have like really enjoyed and respected that those people are able to say to me upfront, this might not be like a similar interview to the other ones you've had today. But I will, you know, I will get to my answers and I will, you know, be able to do that my thing.
Conclusion and Good Luck Wishes
00:45:45
Speaker
um so Yeah, I'm a big fan of stuff like that.
00:45:50
Speaker
Great. Well, I think that's all the questions we had. So unless there's anything else you want to add, Annie? Good luck in getting your new jobs.
00:46:00
Speaker
um Interviewing is tough at any point. So give yourself a break if you're going through it and um go for a nice walk, listen to some nice music um and best wishes from the both of us. Thank you so much for listening today. And if you have found us somewhere on the internet that accepts stars, please give us five. We love that. um And have a great day. Bye. Bye.
00:46:29
Speaker
um